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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 101033 times)

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #690 on: June 19, 2018, 11:22:29 PM »
Umm, I must have dozed off during your lecture...

Was the .38 special typically fired from an automatic back in the day?

If it's any consolation, no one missed you while you were out.

Whether .38SPL was "typically" fired from automatics is beside the point. All I need to make my point is to show that there were automatics that fired that round.

Offline Matt Grantham

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #691 on: June 19, 2018, 11:38:03 PM »


 Joffery Thanks for the shot It does make sense that Mrs Holan would have likely to been the only witness to have had the proper angle to have seen the alleged car in the driveway

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #692 on: June 19, 2018, 11:38:33 PM »
If you think I am full of hot air, you are free to demonstrate it. So is Mr Caprio. And anyone else who wishes to do so. However, I do not see either one of you actually making such an effort.

Sometimes, I say "I'm told that...." because I ask, and the people I ask either think my interest in the JFK case is a pointless waste of time, or simply don't care to be quoted because they don't want another JFK obsessive wasting even more of their time than I do. I also have a lot of normally useless firearms knowledge, partly from shooting off and on, partly from knowing a number of serious shooters, gun collectors, etc. I've also read a fair amount on guns, rifles, and pistols, though that is mostly tied directly to the assassination. Sometimes it runs together, so it's hard to specifically cite a particular source. Once in a while, I say some half remembered thing where I remembered the wrong half. I welcome being set straight in those cases, but it has to be straight. 

If you doubt me about a .38 special version of the Colt 1911, you can look here:

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/06/13/38-special-colt-1911/

[For that matter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_%26_Wesson_Model_52]


And if you don't think anyone makes revolvers in "auto" calibers, you can look here:

https://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=905&toggle=tr
https://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=380&toggle=tr

Speaking of non-traditional revolver ammunition, these guys also make revolvers chambered for .410 gauge shotgun shells:

https://www.taurususa.com/gun-selector-results.cfm?series=JPD&toggle=tr

Probably useful if you need to safeguard you're prone to attack from doves and pigeons.


BTW, Just for reference, this is what Rob C has had to offer as his part in this particular exchange:

"Baloney. Automatic and pistol shells look nothing alike. An experienced officer like Hill wouldn't make that mistake."

"Blah, blah, blah. Even Dale Myers said the automatic shells showed 'AUTO' and the revolver shells showed '.38 Special'.You would have to think that Hill couldn't read to think he made the mistake claimed."

"Just so everyone knows Todd is playing games. Automatic shells and revolver shells look differently and are marked differently. Todd must be saying that Hill was majorly incompetent to confuse the two."

Mostly, he just baldly asserts stuff then pointlessly accuses me of "playing games." The only source he references at all is Dale Meyers, who I doubt would be considered a firearms expert in any way. And not one word from you.

Typical LNer. He makes a claim with absolutely NO SUPPORT, but it then is my responsibility to show his unsupported claim is incorrect. Priceless.

Does a LNer ever support what they claim? It would seem not.

It takes a lot of foolhardiness to claim I provided "no support" in reply to my post providing just that support.  And you put "no support" in all-caps just to make sure everyone sees that foolhardiness. The only question for the rest of us is, how hard do we laugh?



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« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 10:49:45 AM by Mitch Todd »

Offline Joffrey van de Wiel

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #693 on: June 20, 2018, 12:13:58 AM »
I takes a lot of foolhardiness to claim I provided "no support" in reply to my post providing just that support.  And you put "no support" in all-caps just to make sure everyone sees that foolhardiness. The only question for the rest of us is, how hard do we laugh?

Mitch, I have no intention of becoming engaged in the debate between you and Robert but I have a question that I hope you can answer:

Do you think Oswald's revolver had some sort of mechanism that would eject all bullets and shell casings simultaneously? That when operated would empty all chambers of the cilinder? Thanks.



Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #694 on: June 20, 2018, 01:00:52 AM »
Mitch, I have no intention of becoming engaged in the debate between you and Robert but I have a question that I hope you can answer:

Do you think Oswald's revolver had some sort of mechanism that would eject all bullets and shell casings simultaneously? That when operated would empty all chambers of the cilinder? Thanks.



I've never seen an S&W Victory in the flesh, so I'm not completely, 100% sure. However, that sure looks like an ejector rod under the barrel, and it's not like ejectors on revolvers are esoteric items. I don't know if the ejector would be guaranteed to actually kick the cases completely out of the cylinder. Some will, if you hit the ejector hard enough. And if you do it with the butt of the revolver facing downwards, gravity is a big help.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 02:47:28 AM by Mitch Todd »

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #695 on: June 20, 2018, 01:35:26 AM »
Joffery Thanks for the shot It does make sense that Mrs Holan would have likely to been the only witness to have had the proper angle to have seen the alleged car in the driveway

Wait. Did she say the car was between the houses, or the driveway that the car was on was between the houses? The latter is what I get when I read Knight's description.

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #696 on: June 20, 2018, 01:47:42 AM »
"Dallas researcher Michael Brownlow interviewed Doris Holan, who lived directly across the street from the shooting, in a second-floor apartment at 409 East Tenth (researcher Bill Pulte accompanied Brownlow on one of his two interviews with Holan shortly before her death in 2000). She said that a police car had appeared in the driveway between the two houses (404 and 410 East Tenth) at the spot where Tippit was killed. Whether Tippit did so intentionally or coincidentally, he had blocked that driveway, which led to an alley at mid-block, parallel to both East Tenth and Jefferson Boulevard. Tippit, while driving eastward, may have been trying to use his squad car to prevent another police car from leaving the driveway. Holan said when she heard shots and looked out her window, the other police car was heading down the driveway approaching Tippit's vehicle.

... 'She saw a man leaving the scene, moving westward toward Patton... Near the (second) police car she also saw a man in the driveway walking toward the street, where Tippit's car was parked.' That man went up to where Tippit was lying, looked down to inspect the officer's head, and retreated back down the driveway, with the unidentified police car backing up at the same time to the alley. So Holan reported at least three suspicious men at the scene, including two men on foot and the driver of the second police car. Whoever killed Tippit may have fled in that car or in another vehicle or on foot through that alley adjacent to the shooting scene. And Tippit may have been shot by two men, a possibility the ballistics evidence, with different kinds of ammunition, might suggest, even though that evidence is unreliable. Most (not all) witnesses reported a man fleeing around the corner and up Patton toward Jefferson, which would be compatible with Holan's account.

...Michael Brownlow in 1970 found the other witness to the second police car, Sam Guinyard, a porter at a used-car lot at 501 East Jefferson who worked with Ted Calloway. Guinyard told the Commission that at the time of the shooting, he was standing 'at the  back (of the car lot), right at the alley back there' and about ten feet from Patton. Guinyard failed to mention the second police car when he gave that testimony...


 This of course is directly tied to question of Croy in particular being the first officer at the scene



 I am also trying to gather a list of how many of witnesses describe the Oswald looking suspect as having a white undershirt and a white jacket, or just a white or light colored zippered jacket. Tatum, and Markham for sure, and it seems like several others. I have seen the response to this problem of the lack of the dark overshirt is that this Oswald had the brown shirt wrapped around his waist?


 Also can anyone help me on Johnny Brewers statements in regard to what descriptions he had over the radio, or otherwise, to the suspect from either the JFK shooting or Tippits It sounds like, from what I hear from some experts, that he knew of the Tippit shooting at 1:35 when he claims his encounter begins with the individual he eventually watches sneak into the theater

About Holan and Tatum....

Did Brownlow ever check Holan's bona fides? By that, I mean was he able to determine that she actually lived at that address at the time? Any latter-day witness "find" needs to be treated with a bit of caution, and no one else ever reported either the extra squad car in the driveway, nor the guy walking out to Tippit.

Which brings me to Tatum. He was supposedly driving by Tippit's at the time of the shooting, but no one else remembered a car doing so at the time.


Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #697 on: June 20, 2018, 02:05:28 AM »
Can't help but think that Roscoe White might have been in the other police car and was the person who checked Tippit to make sure he was dead. I think for obvious reasons that Oswald was not to escape from the police that day and it looks like he was supposed to be murdered after Tippit was killed or before he was to make it out of the Texas Theater. It seems that Oswald being alive and in custody was a situation that was not good for those setting up 11/22/63 . A lot of people probably breathed a sigh of relief when Oswald died at the hands of Jack Ruby because it meant that Oswald would not be talking about "anything". Ruby was a thug and whatever he told Dorothy Killgallen , rendered her breathless along with Dorothy's best friend a week after Dorothy passed. It sounds like the DPD was impersonating the autopsy team at Bethesda . Evidence went missing and wounds were being rearranged. Tom Robinson was right when he said " That's what the Drs. did "!!!!!!!! CE 399=Didn't happen !

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #698 on: June 20, 2018, 02:26:07 AM »

Which brings me to Tatum. He was supposedly driving by Tippit's at the time of the shooting, but no one else remembered a car doing so at the time.



Mr. BELIN - Anything else?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; I guess that is all I can think of right now.
I think there was another car that was in front of me, a red Ford, I believe. I didn't know the man, but I guess he was about 25 or 30, and he pulled over. I didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he heard the scare, I guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled over, and I don't know if he came back there or not.




JohnM

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #699 on: June 20, 2018, 02:54:43 AM »
Mitch, I have no intention of becoming engaged in the debate between you and Robert but I have a question that I hope you can answer:

Do you think Oswald's revolver had some sort of mechanism that would eject all bullets and shell casings simultaneously? That when operated would empty all chambers of the cilinder? Thanks.



Joffrey,  Oswald's revolver did have an ejector-extraction mechanism that could eject all shell casings simultaneously. Cortlandt Cunningham described it in his WC testimony. We can glean from that testimony why Oswald was unable to successfully use that ejector immediately post Tippit shooting.

Mr. EISENBERG. Now, if a person using the gun and having it fully loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well as the empty cartridge cases?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. The unfired cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. Then he can extract the cartridge cases and lead in more.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you demonstrate that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If I may have a cartridge, please.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; I do. Prior to my appearance here today, this morning, I fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in the cylinder.
Mr. EISENBERG. You are now placing an unfired--
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. An unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the cylinder. Now, in a normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, push in your hand like this, and tip it up. The unfired cartridge will fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of the cylinder are naturally larger than the
cartridge you are loading in there for ease of putting them in. When you fire a cartridge in a revolver, the ease expands as wide as the cylinder. In other words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an explosion in the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and the terrific pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit the chamber.
Mr. EISENBERG. I would like the record to show that when Mr. Cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells remained in.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. EISENBERG. Now, Mr. Cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. yes. These are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. And as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the .38 Special.
................................................
Mr. EISENBERG. I notice that one of the cartridge cases in Exhibit 595 is split on the side, Mr. Cunningham.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is due to the oversized chambers of this revolver. As I previously testified, the weapon was originally chambered for the .38 S&W, which is a wider cartridge than .38 Special. And when a .38 Special is fired in this particular weapon, the case form fits to the shape of each chamber. And in one of those cartridges, the metal just let go. Normally it does not; however this one particular case split slightly.
Representative FORD. Does that have any impact on the rest of the operation?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. As a matter of fact, I test-fired the weapon originally, and I didn't even know it had split until I tried to eject it.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 02:56:39 AM by Tim Nickerson »

 

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