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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 35775 times)

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #630 on: June 17, 2018, 06:59:44 PM »
"Real evidence must be relevant, material, and authentic before a judge will permit its use in a trial."

Poor misguided Tim. It seems you still don´t understand. Evidence presented in court must of course be relevant to the case. A judge is not going to allow something that has nothing to do with the case. However, the admittance of a piece of evidence only means that the judge agrees that the evidence should be presented to the jury, who will then decide the probative value.

Martin, I pointed out that evidence is not admitted into court without first being authenticated. You said No. You were wrong. "Real evidence must be relevant, material, and authentic before a judge will permit its use in a trial."

Quote
The OJ trial? Wow Martin. Your desperation slip is showing.

If anything is showing it is your inability to respond with anything of substance. There is nothing desperate about showing you an actual case which destroys your argument. The point I made was clear. In the OJ trial, the judge admitted the gloves and the jury concluded that they actually did not prove the prosecutors claim. One of the ways the evidence was discredited by the defense was by challenging the chain of custody! And that kinda destroys your argument, but I doubt you will ever see or admit that

Having OJ try the gloves on was not the Defense challenging the chain of custody. It was the prosecution being stupid. It was Christopher Darden, not the Defense , who had OJ try putting the gloves on.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 07:03:49 PM by Tim Nickerson »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #630 on: June 17, 2018, 06:59:44 PM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #631 on: June 17, 2018, 07:02:00 PM »
The Paraffin test on Oswald showed his hands tested positive and his right cheek tested negative which was proof he had not fired a rifle that day, and his hands would have tested positive because he dealt with moving boxes of books . The bottom line is that Oswald would have made a hell of a shot from the break room . Case Closed

Mike, the paraffin tests on the FBI agents who test-fired the rifle also tested negative on the cheek. Sorry, but the paraffin test does not exonerate your guy.


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #632 on: June 17, 2018, 07:04:26 PM »
The defense's convinced the jury with two arguments against the gloves: 1) the gloves --famously-- didn't fit OJ's hand, and 2) that OJ was supposed to have cut one of his fingers during the murder, but there were no holes, tears, cuts, or other openings in the gloves that would correspond to the injury. That is, they were the wrong gloves. Neither of those issues have to do with chain of custody.

OJ was wearing rubber gloves under the actual gloves when he tried them on in court
Of course he had to struggle to put them on.

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #633 on: June 17, 2018, 07:08:24 PM »
Martin, I pointed out that evidence is not admitted into court without first being authenticated. You said No. You were wrong. "Real evidence must be relevant, material, and authentic before a judge will permit its use in a trial."

Having OJ try the gloves on was not the Defense challenging the chain of custody. It was the prosecution being stupid. It was Christopher Darden, not the Defense , who had OJ try putting the gloves on.

And let OJ try the gloves on over rubber gloves
Of course he had trouble putting them on.

« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 07:11:56 PM by Bill Chapman »

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #634 on: June 17, 2018, 09:22:09 PM »
completely wrong?...not sure what you're trying to prove here....and really don't give a crap

who said arrest?
A few pages before my original post someone (I think it was Matt) mentioned 7 officers wrote suspect in balcony
I searched and found those...so what's the problem?....did they not write "suspect in balcony"?

What Matt wrote was:

"There is a hint of the second Oswald’s arrest in the Dallas police records.

According to the Dallas Police Department’s official Homicide Report on J.D. Tippit, “Suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater at 231 W. Jefferson.” 457

Dallas Police detective L.D. Springfellow also reported to Captain W. P. Gannaway, “Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater.” 458

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/02/"

And the link is to a Bill Kelly post that quotes Douglas' claim --well, insinuation, really--  that a second person was arrested on the balcony, and taken out the back door.

That's where I jumped into the sub-thread and posted the Dallas city archives index of the reports of the officers who were at the Texas Theatre. All of those accounts say that only one person, Oswald, was arrested, and that he was arrested on the main floor, not the balcony. I pointed out that the it doesn't appear that the Homicide report nor the Stringfellow report were written by anyone who was at the theater during the arrest. That being so, I wouldn't put much stock in that particular claim in either.

You are right that some of the officers proceeded to the balcony first. The DPD channel 1 logs show that when the dispatcher advise. "We have information that a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson. Supposed to be hiding in the balcony," so that stands to reason they would go there first. Buhk never went into the theater; he stayed outside to man the radio in the squad car. His knowledge of what was going on in the Texas Theatre consisted solely of that one radio report. Carroll went to the balcony, and saw the commotion on the lower floor when Oswald was arrested, but his report didn't mention anyone being questioned on the balcony.  So, neither Buhk nor Carrol said that anyone was arrested on the balcony nor did they say anyone was questioned up there.

Of the others, Walther, Toney, Cunningham, and Hill, Walther saw someone being questioned, but wasn't involved in it himself. From context, it's apparent that Cunningham and Toney questioned some guy to determine if he could be the suspect, but were redirected by someone who is identified as either the "manager" or the "manager on duty"

For context, Taylor went to the balcony, but doesn't mention seeing anything going on up there. Same with Lyon. A number of other officers, all of whom entered from the rear of the theater went directly to the first floor. They were met by Jonnny Calvin Brewer, who pointed out Oswald then and there.

Since Julia Postal called the cops, she has to be the source for locating  the suspect in the balcony. However, she didn't see him enter the theater, didn't see where he went once inside, nor did she go into the auditorium to determine his whereabouts. That job was assigned to Butch Burroughs, though Burroughs wasn't actually told to find a specific person. In fact, Postal and Brewer actually withheld the underlying reason for the assignment from Burroughs. However they figured he was in the balcony is bound to be indirect, convoluted, and not particularly compelling.

In short, there never was an arrest on the balcony. Nor was there a suspect, though there was one guy who seems to have been sitting in the wrong place at the wrong time, and was briefly the interest of a couple of police officers without actually getting to the point of being a suspect. I guess you could call him a "person of interest," as they tend to like to do nowadays.

The upshot of all of this is that there is no real evidence from the police reports that a second person was arrested at the TT and take outside the back door, as Douglas would have you believe.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #634 on: June 17, 2018, 09:22:09 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #635 on: June 17, 2018, 10:54:52 PM »
what a waste...the question was clear
who is the "manager" that vouched for this suspect?

That wasn't the claim in the post I replied to, so I'm not sure why you think it would be "clear"

However, it should be well-established by now that only one person was arrested at the Texas Theatre that day, and there's no good reason to believe that there were any other suspects running around the place.

As to whom the "manager on duty" was...

Postal said that John Callahan walked out of the theater to his car at about the same time Oswald snuck in. She doesn't mention him re-entering, but she doesn't say that he didn't come back in. Still, I doubt it was him. The term, "manager on duty," used by  Toney implies that it was someone who was not the manager but provisionally acting in that capacity, like an assistant manager or some other employee who would have been given responsibility over the place in the manager's absence. AFAIK, no one has a 1963 Texas Theatre org chart, so we don't know how many people would have been working there that day, if any, other than Postal, Burroughs, Callahan, and the Projectionist.

So, we don't really know, and I don't really know if anyone has ever tried to find out. We also don't have any good reason to think it would be important, either, which would explain why no one has ever tried to find out after 50 years.

To me, it looks like the mystery manager is a desperation play wildly snatched at while backpedalling from Douglas' insinuations.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #636 on: June 17, 2018, 11:11:26 PM »
Someone either identified himself as a theater "manager," or the officers mistook someone as the theater "manager," or these officers were lying about speaking to the "manager."






JohnM

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #637 on: June 17, 2018, 11:35:24 PM »





JohnM

Brewer was at the rear exit, near the screen. He wasn't on the balcony AFAIK. Don't think it would be him.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #637 on: June 17, 2018, 11:35:24 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #638 on: June 17, 2018, 11:46:44 PM »
I don't even know what that is.


you mean "a Bill Kelly post that quotes Douglas' claim --well, insinuation, really--  that a second person was arrested on the balcony, and taken out the back door." ?

Matt originally linked to it; I quoted the link in post 795

 (http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/02/ in case you missed it)

You responded to #795 in 796, so it's odd that you "don't know what it is".
 
Damn, man, playing dumb is one thing, being so good at it is another.

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #639 on: June 17, 2018, 11:47:19 PM »
Brewer was at the rear exit, near the screen. He wasn't on the balcony AFAIK. Don't think it would be him.




Yeah I don't think that Brewer was on the balcony but who said the manager was on the balcony?



JohnM