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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 102634 times)

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1810 on: November 01, 2019, 10:19:49 PM »
The fact that she was hysterical doesn't preclude the possibility that she might be a willing participant in a line up once she calmed down, does it now?

And that Fritz was pushing to get Markham to view a line up also doesn't mean that she did not want to participate. What would be the point of getting somebody to view a line up, if that person doesn't want to be there? What could the possible outcome of such a viewing be?

What WAS the outcome?....  Didn't they use the hysterical woman's screwy identification " chills just ran all over me" as a positive ID?

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1811 on: November 01, 2019, 11:04:53 PM »
What WAS the outcome?....  Didn't they use the hysterical woman's screwy identification " chills just ran all over me" as a positive ID?

Yes they did, or at least tried to, and that exposed the weakness of their case.


Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1812 on: November 04, 2019, 03:22:01 AM »
Mr. BALL. Had you ever cleaned up his room?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; I cleaned his rooms, but I didn't see no gun.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever go through any of his effects?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Oh, no.
Mr. BALL. There was a little wooden commode or closet in there, wasn't there?
Mrs. ROBERTS. There was a chifforobe----yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever look in there?
Mrs. ROBERTS. No, sir; I sure didn't-that's against the rules-to ransack their things.
Mr. BALL. Were there any drawers or anything in there?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Yes; there was drawers in that chifforobe and he also had a vanity dresser with four drawers.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever look inside of that ?
Mr. ROBERTS. No; I didn't.


JohnM
He didn't ask her if she had looked everywhere, now did he?
Apparently not
Who cares?
Since you would say Roberts was a keen observer of fine detail we can continue to talk about other interesting observations she made,
like the squad car out front

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1813 on: January 20, 2020, 05:39:44 AM »
Ted Callaway testified that after hearing the five gun shots, he ran out to the sidewalk on Patton.  This was a little over a half block south of the shooting scene.  Callaway saw a man (who he later identified as Oswald) cutting across Patton as he (Oswald) made his way south on Patton (towards Callaway's position).  Callaway hollered out to the man  as the man continued south on Patton past Callaway's position.  Callaway testified that the man was running and holding a gun.  Callaway saw the man head west on Jefferson (the same direction as the theater).

Once the man turned west onto Jefferson, Callaway ran a "good hard run" up to the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Callaway, noticing the stopped patrol car, went to the car and saw the officer (Tippit) lying dead in the street.  Callaway said the first thing he did was to grab the police car radio and report the shooting.  He said he didn't know if anyone had reported it yet, so he decided to report it himself.

To recap, Callaway hears the shots.  Runs to the sidewalk.  Sees the gunman run south on Patton the entire block from Tenth to Jefferson.  Runs the two-thirds of a block up to the shooting scene.  Goes over to the police car and the first thing he does is grab the radio and report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

How much time do you believe passed from the time Callaway heard the shots to the time he reported the shooting on the police radio?

Let's say two minutes pass from the time Oswald shoots Tippit to the time Oswald turns the corner from Patton onto Jefferson.  This is a little over one block and Oswald was running.

Let's say it takes Callaway one minute when he made the "good hard run" the two-thirds of a half block from his location to the patrol car.

If these two time estimates are anywhere close to being correct, then Callaway is at the patrol car roughly three minutes after the shots rang out.  Let's add another full minute for error.  So we have Callaway at the patrol car using the police radio about four minutes after the shots rang out.

Here's the thing... Callaway's report to the dispatcher while using the patrol car radio took place at 1:19/1:20.

Do the math and work it backwards.  At 1:19/1:20, Callaway makes the call.  If four minutes have passed (and that's being generous, in my opinion) since the shots rang out, then the shots rang out around 1:15.

=================================

"The number 2 man in the line up that I saw at City Hall is the man I saw with the gun in his hand." -- Ted Callaway (Affidavit, 11/22/63)

Offline Dale Nason

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1814 on: January 22, 2020, 04:33:34 PM »
So Bill. Using your assumed timeline, and I think it's pretty accurate, then we can also make the assumption that the shooter was approached by Tippet at approximately 1:13pm. Keeping in mind that there was a discussion between the shooter and Tippet that maybe took a minute, maybe more, and then there was the actual shooting that maybe took 15 to 30 seconds. So if Tippets car approached the shooter at 1:13PM, the REAL question would be could Oswald have been able to walk from the rooming house to the shooting scene by 1:13PM. Given what the housekeeper gave as the time that Oswald left the rooming house, I'm not so sure that he could have made it to the scene in that amount of time on foot alone.

Offline Gary Craig

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1815 on: January 22, 2020, 05:01:08 PM »
Ted Callaway testified that after hearing the five gun shots, he ran out to the sidewalk on Patton.  This was a little over a half block south of the shooting scene.  Callaway saw a man (who he later identified as Oswald) cutting across Patton as he (Oswald) made his way south on Patton (towards Callaway's position).  Callaway hollered out to the man  as the man continued south on Patton past Callaway's position.  Callaway testified that the man was running and holding a gun.  Callaway saw the man head west on Jefferson (the same direction as the theater).

Once the man turned west onto Jefferson, Callaway ran a "good hard run" up to the corner of Tenth and Patton.  Callaway, noticing the stopped patrol car, went to the car and saw the officer (Tippit) lying dead in the street.  Callaway said the first thing he did was to grab the police car radio and report the shooting.  He said he didn't know if anyone had reported it yet, so he decided to report it himself.

To recap, Callaway hears the shots.  Runs to the sidewalk.  Sees the gunman run south on Patton the entire block from Tenth to Jefferson.  Runs the two-thirds of a block up to the shooting scene.  Goes over to the police car and the first thing he does is grab the radio and report the shooting to the police dispatcher.

How much time do you believe passed from the time Callaway heard the shots to the time he reported the shooting on the police radio?

Let's say two minutes pass from the time Oswald shoots Tippit to the time Oswald turns the corner from Patton onto Jefferson.  This is a little over one block and Oswald was running.

Let's say it takes Callaway one minute when he made the "good hard run" the two-thirds of a half block from his location to the patrol car.

If these two time estimates are anywhere close to being correct, then Callaway is at the patrol car roughly three minutes after the shots rang out.  Let's add another full minute for error.  So we have Callaway at the patrol car using the police radio about four minutes after the shots rang out.

Here's the thing... Callaway's report to the dispatcher while using the patrol car radio took place at 1:19/1:20.

Do the math and work it backwards.  At 1:19/1:20, Callaway makes the call.  If four minutes have passed (and that's being generous, in my opinion) since the shots rang out, then the shots rang out around 1:15.

=================================

"The number 2 man in the line up that I saw at City Hall is the man I saw with the gun in his hand." -- Ted Callaway (Affidavit, 11/22/63)

"Do the math and work it backwards.  At 1:19/1:20, Callaway makes the call.  If four minutes have passed (and that's being generous, in my opinion) since the shots rang out, then the shots rang out around 1:15."

 ::)



« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 05:12:32 PM by Gary Craig »

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1816 on: January 22, 2020, 06:03:37 PM »
So Bill. Using your assumed timeline, and I think it's pretty accurate, then we can also make the assumption that the shooter was approached by Tippet at approximately 1:13pm. Keeping in mind that there was a discussion between the shooter and Tippet that maybe took a minute, maybe more, and then there was the actual shooting that maybe took 15 to 30 seconds. So if Tippets car approached the shooter at 1:13PM, the REAL question would be could Oswald have been able to walk from the rooming house to the shooting scene by 1:13PM. Given what the housekeeper gave as the time that Oswald left the rooming house, I'm not so sure that he could have made it to the scene in that amount of time on foot alone.

Bill's timeline can't be accurate for several reasons. The most obvious one is that the authorization for autopsy, which Gary posted, shows that Tippit was declared DOA at the hospital at 1:15 pm. DPD officer Davenport, who followed the ambulance part of the way and was present at the hospital confirms that time. Secondly, there is the combined timeline of Helen Markham and T.F. Bowley that does not compute with Tippit being killed after 1:10 pm at the latest.

No LNr has even tried to come up with a plausible scenario for Markham still being at 10th/Patton at 1:14 or 1:15 when she testified she left home "a little after 1" and the one block walk from her home on 9th street to the corner of 10th street and Patton would have taken her only 2, perhaps 3 minutes. Markham estimated in her testimony that she took the 1.15 bus to work every day, but according to the FBI the bus was scheduled to stop there at 1.12 and at 1.22. It actually doesn't matter which bus Markham was talking about, because a walk of two blocks to the bus stop would have taken her no more than 6 minutes. So, if she left home "a little after 1" she would have easily been at the bus stop at around 1.15 and thus not at 10th/Patton. In other words, Tippit must have been shot earlier than 1.15, most likely around 1.06, because otherwise Markham could not have witnessed it.

The same thing goes for Bowley. He arrived after Tippit was killed. In his affidavit he said he picked up his daughter at R.L. Thornton School in Singing Hills at "about 12:55". School bells, in my experience, have a tendency to ring at the correct time every day! Now, let's also not forget that, after picking up his daughter, Bowley was also going to pick up his wife from work, to go on a family holiday and thus had every reason to be on time and be aware of the time! The drive from the school to 10th/Patton is about 7 miles long and takes roughly 13 minutes, depending on the route, making it absolutely possible and plausible for him to arrive at 10th street at 1.10 pm, like he said he did in his affidavit. But even if we are kind to the LNs and accept that Bowley didn't pick up his daughter on time (leaving her waiting for 5 minutes or longer) and did not leave the school until 1 PM, he still would have arrived at 10th/Patton at 1:13, which of course would have been prior to the shooting of Tippit at 1:15, as the WC narrative claims.

And thirdly, according to J.C. Bowles, who was in charge of the DPD dispatchers, the times given verbally by the dispatchers (and thus copied in the transcripts) aren't reliable to determine the real time. This is what Bowles told the HSCA;

Two quotes from the same page: http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html#set

A master clock on the telephone room wall was connected to the City Hall system. This clock reported "official" time. Within the dispatcher's office there were numerous other time giving and time recording devices, both in the telephone room and in the radio room. Telephone operators and radio operators were furnished "Simplex" clocks. Because the hands often worked loose, they indicated the incorrect time. However, their purpose was to stamp the time, day and date on incoming calls. While they were reliable at this, they were not synchronized as stated in the Committee report. Therefore, it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the "official" time shown on the master clock. Accordingly, at "exactly" 10:10, various clocks could be stamping from 10:08 to 10:12, for example. When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done.

There is no way to connect "police time" with "real time." The Committee Report stated that the Dallas Police Communications system was recorded by continuously operating recorders. That statement is incorrect. Channel 1 was recorded on a Dictaphone A2TC, Model 5, belt or loop recorder. Channel 2 was recorded on a Gray "Audograph" flat disk recorder. Both were duplex units with one recording and one on standby for when the other unit contained a full recording. Both units were sound activated. It is important to note "sound" rather than "voice" because either sound or noise from any source, received through the transmission line, would activate the recorders. Once activated, the recorders remained "on" for the duration of the activating sound plus 4 seconds. The four second delay permitted brief pauses or answers to questions without the relay mechanism being overworked. On occasion, the recorders would operate almost continuously because rapid radio traffic kept them operating. On November 22, 1963, the Channel 1 recorders became, for practical purposes, continuous recorders for just over five minutes starting at approximately 12:29 pm (Channel 1 time) because the microphone on a police motorcycle stuck in the "on" position. The resulting continuous transmission kept the Channel 1 recorders operating for just over five minutes thus giving us a real-time recording for that period. The only problem was determining a basis for an accurate time reference during that period.

IMO the time Tippit was killed was pushed back as much as possible to allow for enough time for Oswald to cover the distance between the roominghouse and 10th street. A time trial by Gary Mack showed some years ago that the fastest time possible was 11 minutes.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 08:47:11 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline David Monaghan

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1817 on: January 23, 2020, 06:34:58 AM »
How much do you get payed for being a disinformation agent? Or is it voluntary?   :-\    You like to cherry pick eh?

Offline Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1818 on: January 23, 2020, 06:43:49 AM »
How much do you get payed for being a disinformation agent? Or is it voluntary?   :-\    You like to cherry pick eh?

I'm not sure who you are talking to, but if it is to me, why don't you try to counter the factual points I have made instead of asking silly questions?

Probably a case of "can't dispute the message, so I'll attack the messenger", right?

Do they pay you for being a troll or do you do it voluntary?

« Last Edit: January 23, 2020, 09:44:05 AM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline David Monaghan

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #1819 on: January 23, 2020, 10:39:50 PM »
Martin why would this be aimed at you? I never tagged you? It was aimed at the OP ::)

 

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