3D Modeling of the Alleged Shelley and Lovelady Walking on the Elm Extension

[James Hackerott]

20250917 Revision of my Shelley-Lovelady-Arce post from 2018 (Prayer Woman thread). The calculated heights were not revised.

Alan Ford
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #955 on: July 01, 2018, 01:29:48 PM »

I'm pretty sure the man in black in Couch is not Bill Shelley but Danny Arce!

Alan,
That looks like a great call, as the determined heights of Bill Shelley and Danny Arce will show.

Using my Dealey Plaza 3D model I measured the apparent heights for Arce, Williams, and Shelley as they are escorted to a police car. In the animation I included Billy Lovelady popping-in next to Shelley for the group photo. Results for their heights are as follows:

Arce      5'11”
Williams   6' 2.5”
Detective   5' 9”
Lovelady   5' 8.5” (from other sources)
Shelley   5'6”


The next animation compares a 5’8.5” Lovelady with a 5’6” Shelley and 5’11” Danny Arce with a Couch frame. To make these renderings I used my on-site measurement for the curb height of 9”. I also added a Lovelady stand-in, who's calculated height does fit nicely with the alleged Lovelady in Couch. The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.

[Tom Graves]

The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.

James,

Was Arce wearing a suit that day, as the "Shelley" figure appears to be doing in the enlarged high-rez frame and the cropped-and-enhanced frames from Couch-Darnell that you can see by scrolling down a bit in this article at a certain website?

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/

-- Tom

[Lance Payette]

James,

Was Arce wearing a suit that day?

-- Tom

All of the TSBD order-fillers wore suits. It was an extremely formal warehouse. Oswald was a renegade, the Punk Who Wouldn't Wear a Suit (as Shelley famously called him). Arce had an orange pimp suit that was the envy of his order-filling peers, or at least that's what Weisberg reported in 1992.

More to the point, is there some reason you change avatars like they were popcorn? Why not just use an actual photo of yourself and stick with it, as I do? (Yes, that's me.) Some of these avatars are hysterical - shriveled up little old men who somehow identify with superheroes and whatnot.

[Tom Graves]

Is there some reason you change avatars like they were popcorn? Why not just use an actual photo of yourself and stick with it, as I do?

Dear Lance,

A fancy-pants logo would suffice for you.

-- Tom

[Lance Payette]

I apologize for interrupting James' excellent work with my silliness, but opportunities to needle Tom simply cannot be resisted. His obsession with Gloria Calvery dates back something like 20 years, and it's mostly lost on me. All efforts to make Bill Shelley into the Second Most Interesting Man in the World are likewise lost on me. Since he consistently, from 11-22-63 to the WC, placed Oswald on the first floor at 11:50, I have a hard time picturing him as a conspirator - let alone a CIA operative or Oswald's FPCC leafletting buddy in New Orleans. I've never thought the two Sidewalk Guys were anyone other than Shelley and Lovelady, and Alan Ford's stuff has always just made my head hurt. Perhaps someone can explain the significance of all this to me?

Ah, I see that WC Sham Guy Dan has started Yet Another Calvery Thread that explains what a CTer thinks the significance is. Shelley was induced to dramatically change his story in order to accommodate the WC Sham but kept placing Oswald on the first floor at 11:50 when he could have just Shut the Hell Up about that? Well, perhaps ....

Oh, dear, my head is spinning. Over at Prayer Man, they are convinced (and make rather a good case with enhanced photos) that it is Shelley and Lovelady walking down the sidewalk and that they lied when they said they were on the steps. http://www.prayer-man.com/bill-shelley-and-billy-lovelady-in-the-couch-film/. Isn't this the opposite of what WC Sham Guy Dan says? Given the choice between Bart Kamp and WC Sham Guy Dan on almost anything, I must admit I'd go with Bart.

[Dan O'meara]

20250917 Revision of my Shelley-Lovelady-Arce post from 2018 (Prayer Woman thread). The calculated heights were not revised.

Alan Ford
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #955 on: July 01, 2018, 01:29:48 PM »

I'm pretty sure the man in black in Couch is not Bill Shelley but Danny Arce!

Alan,
That looks like a great call, as the determined heights of Bill Shelley and Danny Arce will show.

Using my Dealey Plaza 3D model I measured the apparent heights for Arce, Williams, and Shelley as they are escorted to a police car. In the animation I included Billy Lovelady popping-in next to Shelley for the group photo. Results for their heights are as follows:

Arce      5'11”
Williams   6' 2.5”
Detective   5' 9”
Lovelady   5' 8.5” (from other sources)
Shelley   5'6”


The next animation compares a 5’8.5” Lovelady with a 5’6” Shelley and 5’11” Danny Arce with a Couch frame. To make these renderings I used my on-site measurement for the curb height of 9”. I also added a Lovelady stand-in, who's calculated height does fit nicely with the alleged Lovelady in Couch. The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.

Excellent work, as usual, James.
Hopefully it puts this issue to rest once and for all.
It is clear, watching the part of the Darnell clip this identification is taken from, that the two men are not walking together. The 'Lovelady' figure starts off well behind the 'Shelley' figure but in the very brief clip he rapidly passes him by and is far out in front of him by the end of it. If the clip had run just a couple of seconds more 'Lovelady' would have been out of sight.
The Elm Street identification is based on the claims made by Shelley and Lovelady during their WC testimonies, that after the shooting they walked along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yards. Isn't it strange that those who buy this claim forget that Shelley and Lovelady also claimed they were on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria showed up, that they then went across to what both men refer to as the "little, old island" where they stayed for a further minute or two before heading along the extension. This, of course, is flatly contradicted by the fact the Darnell footage in question was taken 25 - 30 seconds after the headshot.
Why accept one part of their testimonies but ignore the rest?

A close analysis of this Chris Davidson GIF - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1 - reveals that Karan Hicks (the woman in white) has reached the bottom step and is just beginning to climb them. This tells us that as the Darnell footage is capturing the moment that Hicks and Calvery arrive at the steps. They have only just arrived at the steps and Gloria has just begun to tell everyone there that the President has been shot. This moment is recalled by both Lovelady and Buell Frazier in their WC testimonies.
It is simply impossible for the Elm Street identification to be correct.
Just as your own excellent analysis has confirmed.

[Tim Nickerson]

20250917 Revision of my Shelley-Lovelady-Arce post from 2018 (Prayer Woman thread). The calculated heights were not revised.

Alan Ford
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #955 on: July 01, 2018, 01:29:48 PM »

I'm pretty sure the man in black in Couch is not Bill Shelley but Danny Arce!

Alan,
That looks like a great call, as the determined heights of Bill Shelley and Danny Arce will show.

Using my Dealey Plaza 3D model I measured the apparent heights for Arce, Williams, and Shelley as they are escorted to a police car. In the animation I included Billy Lovelady popping-in next to Shelley for the group photo. Results for their heights are as follows:

Arce      5'11”
Williams   6' 2.5”
Detective   5' 9”
Lovelady   5' 8.5” (from other sources)
Shelley   5'6”


The next animation compares a 5’8.5” Lovelady with a 5’6” Shelley and 5’11” Danny Arce with a Couch frame. To make these renderings I used my on-site measurement for the curb height of 9”. I also added a Lovelady stand-in, who's calculated height does fit nicely with the alleged Lovelady in Couch. The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.

Where do you get that Shelley was 5'6”?

[James Hackerott]

James,

Was Arce wearing a suit that day, as the "Shelley" figure appears to be doing in the enlarged high-rez frame and the cropped-and-enhanced frames from Couch-Darnell that you can see by scrolling down a bit in this article at a certain website?

http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/

-- Tom

No, but if youi hum a few bars.....
Actually, I've always looked at Arce wearing a long dress coat. I doubt he would be wearing a suit jacket but I don't know. The Couch images from your link shows the "Shelley" figure that could be wearing such a coat or possibly a suit jacket. No way to be sure, in my opinion.

Tom, I'm not sucking up but want to take this oppertunity to thank you for the work you, Larson and one ther fellow IIRC for solving the "Dog's Breakfast Identifications" of Calvery, Stemmons sign women and more along the north side of Elm. You don't get enough credit for that work. However, for this Shelley walking down the Elm St. extension I can't buy into. I believe the heights measured are the "Elephant In The Room" for the Darnell and Shelley walking west on the extension theory. One more rant. When Gerda first published the Couch (or Darnell) animation she captioned it as "Shelley and Darnell?", or maybe (Darnell and Shelley?)-I did not save that image. That was the only time I recall Gerda wavering on an identification. We never see that image posted, to my knowledge. 

If you can come up with a explaination for the "5'6" Shelley appearing ~2-3" taller than 5'8.5" Lovelady height difference I'm posting let me know.

James