Who Were the Two Men Heading *Down* the Stairs at NLT 12:50?

[Mitch Todd]

   The key here is knowing exactly when did the TSBD power go out and prevent Mooney from using the freight elevator beyond the 2nd floor? Knowing this would timeline Mooney and those 2 "plain clothes" guys that he encountered coming DOWN the stairwell. It is hard to believe these 2 possible Sheriffs could have entered and gone up into the TSBD and actually investigated anything within roughly 10 minutes after the Kill Shot.

Mooney never claimed that the power to the building was cut off. Only to the elevator.`This is from his report to Decker:

"Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor"

No one else reported the power to the entire building being cut off or the lights going out etc, and there were any number of people in the building at the time.

[Tommy Shanks]

Mooney never claimed that the power to the building was cut off. Only to the elevator.`This is from his report to Decker:

"Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their office. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with these women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor"

No one else reported the power to the entire building being cut off or the lights going out etc, and there were any number of people in the building at the time.

Careful, Mitch! You're employing too much logic for Royell Storing!

[Tom Graves]

[...]

What does "NLT" stand for?

North Loading Transitional Zone, and you just forgot to put the Z in?

-- Tom

[Mitch Todd]

And that's the rub: There just doesn't seem to be a plausible innocent explanation for two well-dressed men coming down the stairs at 12:40-12:50. They obviously were not common laborers or else Mooney would not have assumed they were plain clothes law officers. The WC went of its way to establish that Mooney was the first law officer on the sixth floor. Yet, Ball simply ignored Mooney's account of two law officers on the stairs at a time when none were there and when none should have been there, and the Commission showed no interest in Harkness's encounter at the rear of the TSBD with men who claimed they were Secret Service agents.

10-20 minutes is plenty of time for other DCSD officers to enter the building, get up to a higher floor and come back down in time to meet Mooney. Also, Mooney may have just run into someone who worked in one of the publisher's offices in the TSBD, but whom Mooney took for a other deputies. Suits weren't uncommon businesswear in those days.

As for Harkness, he didn't run round to the back of the TSBD until after Euins had been seated in Sawyer's car. As Mr Storing has pointed out, film shows this occurring while the  TSBD's red gates are already closed. Dan O'Meara has shown that photographs show that those red gates are still open at 12:40 PM. Therefore, Harkness doesn't make it to the rear of the TSBD until after 12:40. Maybe even many minutes after 12:40.

At the same time, Forrest Sorrel's didn't hang around at Parkland for very long before he grabbed the first DPD car headed back to Dealey Plaza. Sorrel's testified that the car came down Houston, and that he exited the car and immediately entered the TSBD through the rear entrance. This would put him at the TSBD rear doors about the time that Harkness also showed up back there. The implication should be obvious.

[Dan O'meara]

The WC established that Mooney was the first law enforcement officer to go to the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) after the shooting, and that Mooney was the officer who discovered the sixth-floor “sniper’s nest.” Mooney headed up the stairs from the second floor to the sixth floor at no later than 12:50. No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.

No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.

This is clearly not the case.
Marrion Baker, along with Roy Truly, reached the seventh floor at approximately 12:35 PM. As the were coming back down to the first floor in the elevator, they stopped on the fourth floor where Baker had a quick chat with Inspector Sawyer. Sawyer had entered the TSBD  around 12;35Pm and made his way up to the fourth floor with another officer and a mystery employee from the TSBD. He had his interaction with Baker on the fourth floor at approximately 12:40PM.
However, both these men were in full uniform and cannot be mistaken with the plain clothed deputy sheriffs Mooney saw on his way up to the sixth floor.
Mooney entered the TSBD no sooner than 12:40PM.
He took the elevator, which stalled on the second floor. He had a quick look around the second floor then made his way up to the sixth floor via the back stairs. It was at this time he crossed the two men coming down the stairs. This took place at approximately 12:45PM.
Mooney went up to the sixth, had a good look around on his own, went up to the seventh floor and helped out there before returning to the sixth floor and walking straight over to the southeast corner, where he discovered the "cubby hole". After alerting other officers on the sixth floor of his discovery, he shouted down to Fritz, who was entering the building at 12:58PM

So who were the two plain clothed deputy sheriffs Mooney encountered around 12:45PM?



This is the report of Deputy Sheriff Jack Faulkner, written up on the day of the assassination.
In it he reports that immediately after the shots he made his way to Elm Street where he was trying to find out what was going on.
He reports that "a small negro boy came up to a Dallas Uniform officer" and told him the shots came from the TSBD. The is is clearly Amos Euins talking to Harkness. This happened BEFORE Harkness radioed in this information at 12:36PM.
Faulkner immediately went to the TSBD where he was met by McCurley, Wiseman and Loraine and they "went to the top of the building and started checking the floors going down from the top in search of the assassin".
They make it to the third floor where they interview some people after which they make their way back up to the building. It is some time after this that Mooney makes his discovery.

It seems that Faulkner, a plain clothed Deputy Sheriff making his way down from the seventh floor, is at least one of the men Mooney encountered. I'm guessing Bill Wiseman was the other.

[Royell Storing]

No federal or local law enforcement officers were on any of the upper floors of the building between 12:35 and 1:10.

This is clearly not the case.
Marrion Baker, along with Roy Truly, reached the seventh floor at approximately 12:35 PM. As the were coming back down to the first floor in the elevator, they stopped on the fourth floor where Baker had a quick chat with Inspector Sawyer. Sawyer had entered the TSBD  around 12;35Pm and made his way up to the fourth floor with another officer and a mystery employee from the TSBD. He had his interaction with Baker on the fourth floor at approximately 12:40PM.
However, both these men were in full uniform and cannot be mistaken with the plain clothed deputy sheriffs Mooney saw on his way up to the sixth floor.
Mooney entered the TSBD no sooner than 12:40PM.
He took the elevator, which stalled on the second floor. He had a quick look around the second floor then made his way up to the sixth floor via the back stairs. It was at this time he crossed the two men coming down the stairs. This took place at approximately 12:45PM.
Mooney went up to the sixth, had a good look around on his own, went up to the seventh floor and helped out there before returning to the sixth floor and walking straight over to the southeast corner, where he discovered the "cubby hole". After alerting other officers on the sixth floor of his discovery, he shouted down to Fritz, who was entering the building at 12:58PM

So who were the two plain clothed deputy sheriffs Mooney encountered around 12:45PM?



This is the report of Deputy Sheriff Jack Faulkner, written up on the day of the assassination.
In it he reports that immediately after the shots he made his way to Elm Street where he was trying to find out what was going on.
He reports that "a small negro boy came up to a Dallas Uniform officer" and told him the shots came from the TSBD. The is is clearly Amos Euins talking to Harkness. This happened BEFORE Harkness radioed in this information at 12:36PM.
Faulkner immediately went to the TSBD where he was met by McCurley, Wiseman and Loraine and they "went to the top of the building and started checking the floors going down from the top in search of the assassin".
They make it to the third floor where they interview some people after which they make their way back up to the building. It is some time after this that Mooney makes his discovery.

It seems that Faulkner, a plain clothed Deputy Sheriff making his way down from the seventh floor, is at least one of the men Mooney encountered. I'm guessing Bill Wiseman was the other.

   There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD. This same footage also shows the Huge Gates were Closed/Ajar at that same time. Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD. After arriving at the TSBD, Harkness then loaded Euins into Sawyer's car. The loading of Euins into Sawyer's car and the Huge Gates already being closed, would then be 12:37. Officer Luke Mooney gave WC testimony that he and 2 other DPD Deputies closed those gates after finding them to be "wide open". This means that 12:37 timeline also applies to  Luke Mooney and the 2 deputies who closed those Huge Gates. Luke Mooney and the 2 Deputies were then inside the TSBD no later than 12:38.

[Dan O'meara]

   There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD. This same footage also shows the Huge Gates were Closed/Ajar at that same time. Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD. After arriving at the TSBD, Harkness then loaded Euins into Sawyer's car. The loading of Euins into Sawyer's car and the Huge Gates already being closed, would then be 12:37. Officer Luke Mooney gave WC testimony that he and 2 other DPD Deputies closed those gates after finding them to be "wide open". This means that 12:37 timeline also applies to  Luke Mooney and the 2 deputies who closed those Huge Gates. Luke Mooney and the 2 Deputies were then inside the TSBD no later than 12:38.

There's CBS footage of Amos Euins being loaded into Inspector Sawyer's car in front of the TSBD

I have never seen this footage. I don't believe such footage exists.
I believe you are referring to footage of Brennan being loaded into Sawyer's car.
If I am mistaken, please point me towards this footage.

Officer Harkness made a documented 12:36 PM police radio call that he was bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD.

Harkness makes two documented transmissions at 12:36PM

"I have a witness that says that it came from the 5th floor of the Texas Book Depository Store."

"Witness says shots came from fifth floor, Texas Book Depository Store and Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."

Neither of these transmissions states that Harkness was "bringing an eyewitness, (Euins), to the TSBD."


I believe you are wrong about the Euin's footage and the Harkness transmission. To my mind this negates your assertion that Mooney entered the TSBD at 12:38PM.
The Allen picture below shows the gates wide open and the time as 12:40PM.
Mooney had not yet entered the TSBD at 12:40PM