Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview

[Jack Nessan]

Why did Oswald include Shelley as part of his alibi?
It's a simple question Jack, so what do you think?
The only rational reason Oswald would do this, in my opinion, is because he did talk to Shelley before he left the building.
If, as you believe, Oswald didn't talk to Shelley, why would he use him in his alibi? What is your sensible explanation for this?

And to be clear - Shelley denying he spoke to Oswald isn't what makes him a liar. Shelley lies about his movements after the assassination, that's what makes him a liar. It is then important to look at Shelley's other interactions that day in the light of him being a proven liar. This is from the post you completely ignored:

"...Shelley only knows Oswald as a quiet loner who works at the TSBD building. They are not friends, they do not socialise, they barely know each other. Yet Oswald believes that Shelley will back him up. He believes that Shelley will confirm that he gave Oswald permission to leave that day, otherwise why would he mention Shelley at all?
Oswald knows that all the authorities have to do is ask Shelley and this alibi will be blown so why does he do it?
The only rational reason is that Oswald fully expected Shelley to back him up.
The only rational reason why Oswald would expect Shelley to back him up is that Oswald really did have a conversation with Shelley just before he left the TSBD building.
Fritz makes the point that Oswald is very cool and controlled during interrogation, so this isn't a question of someone panicking under pressure and saying the wrong thing. Oswald knows exactly what he's doing when he brings Shelley into his alibi. He clearly views Shelley as an accomplice."

Do you agree with this assessment? If you don't, what do you disagree with and why.
And while we're on the subject of proven liars, I see you're still peddling the lie about Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett.
For those not familiar with Jack's Lie, a few posts back Jack was insisting that statements made by Sawyer, Harkness and Barnett refuted Vicki Adams' testimony that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot. Time after time after time Jack was asked to provide these statements and demonstrate how they refuted Adams' testimony. Obviously he refused to do so because no such statements exist but he continues to peddle the lie that they do exist.
Unbelievably, the sum total of Jack's accumulated evidence that "refutes" the testimony of Vicki Adams is a single statement made by Harkness.
This is how it 'works' - after they exit the TSBD building through the Houston dock door, Adams and Styles run about 20ft to a set of stairs, go down these and then run another 30ft to the end of the extension on the back of the building. They turn west and are met by a police officer who tells them to get back inside the building.
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.



In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:

Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.

This is where things become difficult to believe.
For no given reason and with absolutely not a shred of evidence to back this up, Jack simply decides that the policeman that Adams and Styles run into is Harkness or one of the other officers he mentions. Jack simply plucks this identification out of thin air. Then his logic kicks in - well, if these officers didn't go round the back until 12:36pm then that must be the time when Adams and Styles left the building, therefore the statement made by Harkness proves Adams and Styles didn't leave the fourth floor immediately.
And that's it.
Seriously.
That is the sum total of Jack's "evidence".
A chimpanzee trying to crack open a nut with a rock uses superior logic.
The first thing to note is that Sawyer and Barnett don't come into. Neither man makes any kind of statement that has any bearing on Vicki's movements. In fact, Barnett completely undermines Jack's little fantasy as he points out that seconds after the shooting he runs down Houston Street, looks around the back of the building and sees at least one police officer already there. The officer that Barnett sees cannot be Harkness or his merry men. This must be the officer Adams and Styles run into.
The second thing to note is that Harkness doesn't make any kind of statement that relates to Vicki's movements. He simply says that he and two other officers go to the back of the building around 12:36pm. As has been said all along, not one of these officers makes any kind of statement relating to Vicki's movements. Jack knows this but he continues to peddle the lie that these officers refute Adams' timeline. This is Jack's Lie.
Just to demonstrate how poor Jack's use of logic is, let's take a closer look at his decision to identify the policeman Adams and Styles run into as Harkness (or one of his colleagues. Remember, Harkness never mentions anything about this encounter).
Jack's logic is that the officer they run into is part of the effort to lock down the building.
But there's a slight flaw - a building is locked down at the doors!
To control people entering and leaving the building, police officers must be stationed at the doors.
We see that at the front doors. The officers controlling people entering and leaving the building through the front doors are not stood around the corner of the building on Houston Street. They are not trying to do it from the railroad yard. They are stood at the doors. That's how a building is locked down.
Now look at the diagram above. The encounter with the officer occurs about 50ft away from the back door, around the side of the building.
What happens if someone comes out the back door and goes right onto Houston Street? How is this officer supposed to deal with that person?
And there's another part of the building being locked down that Jack has failed to grasp. Adams and Styles are outside the building. They are about 50ft away from the back door. If the building was locked down the police officer would be stopping them from getting back inside. Instead, this officer does the very opposite thing - he orders Adams and Styles back inside the building. It's the very opposite of what is supposed to happen!
Jack's identification of the officer as someone involved in the lock down involves logic so poor it would make a chimpanzee blush.

And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.

In this whole lengthy misguided post, these are the only facts presented. Everything else is nothing more than your imaginative conjecture and your suspect opinion. You seem to understand the importance of both girls stating they were ordered back to the building by the cop, who was not in place until 12:36, but the significance of it seems have gone straight over your head.

“after they exit the TSBD building through the Houston dock door, Adams and Styles run about 20ft to a set of stairs, go down these and then run another 30ft to the end of the extension on the back of the building. They turn west and are met by a police officer who tells them to get back inside the building.”

“Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.”

“these officers didn't go round the back until 12:36pm then that must be the time when Adams and Styles left the building, therefore the statement made by Harkness proves Adams and Styles didn't leave the fourth floor immediately.”

“this officer ....orders Adams and Styles back inside the building”

You can actually read these facts, post them, but then go blank when it is time to understand them?

-----------------------------

Shelley lies about his movements after the assassination, that's what makes him a liar. It is then important to look at Shelley's other interactions that day in the light of him being a proven liar.   

Huh. Oswald never does say Shelley told him to go home.

Oswald did bring Jarmin and Norman into his story but they have no recollection of him either. 

Lock down is proven by both women, who stated they encountered the police behind the building and were told to return to the front. Too bad you weren’t there, you could have explained to the police the folly of their actions and you had a better way to do it. And there's another part of the building being locked down that Jack has failed to grasp. Adams and Styles are outside the building. They are about 50ft away from the back door. If the building was locked down the police officer would be stopping them from getting back inside. Instead, this officer does the very opposite thing - he orders Adams and Styles back inside the building. It's the very opposite of what is supposed to happen!
Jack's identification of the officer as someone involved in the lock down involves logic so poor it would make a chimpanzee blush.

Wow, great use of the imagination. Harkness seems to think otherwise. Given he was the one who did it I am going to defer to Harkness as to what a lockdown is.
 
“And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.”

You have not shown anything. You believe the officers should have thrown Adams and Styles onto the ground and handcuffed them and then taken them in for interregation?

 Are you suggesting that the police should have or were actually aiding people who were leaving the TSBD?

 

[Jack Nessan]

I have a slightly different understanding of Sawyer's movements and timings but it has absolutely no bearing on how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. Regardless of Jack's Lie, Sawyer never makes any kind of statement that relates to how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. And neither do Harkness or Barnett. Dealing with someone who is prepared to lie makes any kind of reasoned debate almost impossible.
As I understand it, it's a good 5 or 6 minute drive from Sawyer's position near Main and Ervay down to the TSBD building and Sawyer makes it clear it is slow going at first due to the crowds. He hears Decker's voice urging people to get to the railroad yard so he heads that way. He is still in his car at 12:34pm when he hears mention of shots from the TSBD building and that becomes his focus.
I believe he pulls up outside the building about 12:36pm. Harkness has just made his call and is making his way from the railroad yard to the front of the TSBD building with Euins on board. We see Sawyer pulling up in the distance in the Martin(?) film. Harkness parks up and puts Euins in the back of Sawyer's car and Harkness sees Sawyer talking to officers by the steps. Sawyer is yet to enter the building.
Sawyer enters the building as Harkness goes round the back to seal off the rear entrance. Sawyer takes the lift in the lobby up to the fourth floor with two officers and an employee. I get the impression that Sawyer incorrectly believes he is on the floor the shooting took place. He has a very quick look round to establish there is no shooter on that floor. While he is on the fourth floor Baker and Truly show up in an elevator as they make their way back down from the roof and Baker has some kind of interaction with Sawyer, who then makes his way back down to the lobby. I believe it is about 12:38/12:39pm when Sawyer orders the lock down. He then goes outside and makes his first transmission at 12:40pm.
Around the time Sawyer is ordering the lock down, Adams, who is stood outside, hears the 12:38pm transmission mentioning the "second floor" that convinces her to go back inside the building. She almost doesn't make it back inside before the building is locked down. Styles has already re-entered unchallenged minutes earlier.

 So you do understand? Based on the time stamps presented, the girls left later than they thought. Channeling Mitch Todd?

[Dan O'meara]

In this whole lengthy misguided post, these are the only facts presented. Everything else is nothing more than your imaginative conjecture and your suspect opinion. You seem to understand the importance of both girls stating they were ordered back to the building by the cop, who was not in place until 12:36, but the significance of it seems have gone straight over your head.

“after they exit the TSBD building through the Houston dock door, Adams and Styles run about 20ft to a set of stairs, go down these and then run another 30ft to the end of the extension on the back of the building. They turn west and are met by a police officer who tells them to get back inside the building.”

“Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.”

“these officers didn't go round the back until 12:36pm then that must be the time when Adams and Styles left the building, therefore the statement made by Harkness proves Adams and Styles didn't leave the fourth floor immediately.”

“this officer ....orders Adams and Styles back inside the building”

You can actually read these facts, post them, but then go blank when it is time to understand them?

 
It's only just dawned on me that you don't have a clue what's going on.
Earlier in this thread, where you didn't know who Gloria Calvery was or you thought the Darnell footage actually showed Baker entering the TSBD building, I thought you were employing underhand tactics to derail the arguments I was putting forward because you couldn't come up with any kind of counter-argument.
But that's not the case at all.
You simply don't know the evidence on a basic level and, worse than that, you have no concept of how to interpret that small amount of evidence you are aware of.
On top of that, you don't seem to notice the difference between 'evidence' and things you've just made up.
For example, your identification of Harkness as the officer who stops Adams and Styles from entering the railroad yard is completely made up. You don't seem to realise that this identification isn't backed up by anything. There is not a scrap of evidence to back it up. I think you've just convinced yourself it's a fact and you seem to expect others to treat it as a fact just because you do.

As crazy as this sounds, you seem to be saying this officer is preventing Adams and Styles from leaving the building!!
Do you see how crazy that suggestion is?
He's stood about 50ft away from the back door, how can he prevent anyone from leaving the building?
Adams and Styles completely ignore him. Instead of returning back the way they came, they just carry on walking around the building. Do you think this is part of the lock down?
Your identification of Harkness as the officer that Adams and Styles encounter is completely bananas.

And not only that, in order for you to uphold this delusional identification you have Adams, Styles and Garner as liars, you have to ignore the Dillard pic and the Stroud document.
Why accept real evidence when you can make up your own 

Shelley lies about his movements after the assassination, that's what makes him a liar. It is then important to look at Shelley's other interactions that day in the light of him being a proven liar.   

Huh. Oswald never does say Shelley told him to go home.

Oswald did bring Jarmin and Norman into his story but they have no recollection of him either. 

Lock down is proven by both women, who stated they encountered the police behind the building and were told to return to the front. Too bad you weren’t there, you could have explained to the police the folly of their actions and you had a better way to do it. And there's another part of the building being locked down that Jack has failed to grasp. Adams and Styles are outside the building. They are about 50ft away from the back door. If the building was locked down the police officer would be stopping them from getting back inside. Instead, this officer does the very opposite thing - he orders Adams and Styles back inside the building. It's the very opposite of what is supposed to happen!
Jack's identification of the officer as someone involved in the lock down involves logic so poor it would make a chimpanzee blush.

Wow, great use of the imagination. Harkness seems to think otherwise. Given he was the one who did it I am going to defer to Harkness as to what a lockdown is.
 
“And, although Jack's identification of this officer with Harkness has been shown to be farcical and that there isn't a single statement by Harkness, Sawyer or Barnett that relates to Vicki's movements, he will still continue to peddle the lie that their testimonies refute Adams' testimony.
He will continue with this lie because he is a good little Nutter.”

You have not shown anything. You believe the officers should have thrown Adams and Styles onto the ground and handcuffed them and then taken them in for interregation?

 Are you suggesting that the police should have or were actually aiding people who were leaving the TSBD?

Huh. Oswald never does say Shelley told him to go home.

Huh??
Nowhere have I said that Shelley told Oswald to go home.
I have to assume you're trying to say that Oswald didn't include Shelley as part of his alibi.
Is that what you're trying to say?
Are you trying to say that Oswald never referred to Shelley in his interrogation?
It's kind of difficult to know what you're actually trying to say.

Just in case this is yet another instance where you have no idea about the evidence.
This is from James Bookhout's report 11/25/63:

"He thereafter went outside and stood for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building."

This incident is mentioned in Fritz's notes:

"out with Bill Shelley in front
lft wk opinion nothing to be done that day etc."

Ball is also aware of Oswald mentioning this incident and questions Shelley about it:

Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.

You believe the officers should have thrown Adams and Styles onto the ground and handcuffed them and then taken them in for interregation?

Are you suggesting that the police should have or were actually aiding people who were leaving the TSBD?

Wow.
You really have no idea what's going on.

[Dan O'meara]

So you do understand? Based on the time stamps presented, the girls left later than they thought. Channeling Mitch Todd?

 So you do understand?

Yes Jack, I do understand.
I understand you have no idea what's actually going on.

Based on the time stamps presented, the girls left later than they thought.

I'm going to reproduce the timeline I posted to show that there is not a single word in it that relates to the movements of Adams and Styles.
Not one single word.
There's no point in asking you what in the post shows that "the girls left later than they thought" because there isn't anything to point out.
You don't have a clue what's going on.

"I have a slightly different understanding of Sawyer's movements and timings but it has absolutely no bearing on how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. Regardless of Jack's Lie, Sawyer never makes any kind of statement that relates to how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. And neither do Harkness or Barnett. Dealing with someone who is prepared to lie makes any kind of reasoned debate almost impossible.
As I understand it, it's a good 5 or 6 minute drive from Sawyer's position near Main and Ervay down to the TSBD building and Sawyer makes it clear it is slow going at first due to the crowds. He hears Decker's voice urging people to get to the railroad yard so he heads that way. He is still in his car at 12:34pm when he hears mention of shots from the TSBD building and that becomes his focus.
I believe he pulls up outside the building about 12:36pm. Harkness has just made his call and is making his way from the railroad yard to the front of the TSBD building with Euins on board. We see Sawyer pulling up in the distance in the Martin(?) film. Harkness parks up and puts Euins in the back of Sawyer's car and Harkness sees Sawyer talking to officers by the steps. Sawyer is yet to enter the building.
Sawyer enters the building as Harkness goes round the back to seal off the rear entrance. Sawyer takes the lift in the lobby up to the fourth floor with two officers and an employee. I get the impression that Sawyer incorrectly believes he is on the floor the shooting took place. He has a very quick look round to establish there is no shooter on that floor. While he is on the fourth floor Baker and Truly show up in an elevator as they make their way back down from the roof and Baker has some kind of interaction with Sawyer, who then makes his way back down to the lobby. I believe it is about 12:38/12:39pm when Sawyer orders the lock down. He then goes outside and makes his first transmission at 12:40pm.
Around the time Sawyer is ordering the lock down, Adams, who is stood outside, hears the 12:38pm transmission mentioning the "second floor" that convinces her to go back inside the building. She almost doesn't make it back inside before the building is locked down. Styles has already re-entered unchallenged minutes earlier."

If there's any forum member who has a clue what Jack is talking about could they point it out.

[Jack Nessan]

It's only just dawned on me that you don't have a clue what's going on.
Earlier in this thread, where you didn't know who Gloria Calvery was or you thought the Darnell footage actually showed Baker entering the TSBD building, I thought you were employing underhand tactics to derail the arguments I was putting forward because you couldn't come up with any kind of counter-argument.
But that's not the case at all.
You simply don't know the evidence on a basic level and, worse than that, you have no concept of how to interpret that small amount of evidence you are aware of.
On top of that, you don't seem to notice the difference between 'evidence' and things you've just made up.
For example, your identification of Harkness as the officer who stops Adams and Styles from entering the railroad yard is completely made up. You don't seem to realise that this identification isn't backed up by anything. There is not a scrap of evidence to back it up. I think you've just convinced yourself it's a fact and you seem to expect others to treat it as a fact just because you do.

As crazy as this sounds, you seem to be saying this officer is preventing Adams and Styles from leaving the building!!
Do you see how crazy that suggestion is?
He's stood about 50ft away from the back door, how can he prevent anyone from leaving the building?
Adams and Styles completely ignore him. Instead of returning back the way they came, they just carry on walking around the building. Do you think this is part of the lock down?
Your identification of Harkness as the officer that Adams and Styles encounter is completely bananas.

And not only that, in order for you to uphold this delusional identification you have Adams, Styles and Garner as liars, you have to ignore the Dillard pic and the Stroud document.
Why accept real evidence when you can make up your own 

Huh. Oswald never does say Shelley told him to go home.

Huh??
Nowhere have I said that Shelley told Oswald to go home.
I have to assume you're trying to say that Oswald didn't include Shelley as part of his alibi.
Is that what you're trying to say?
Are you trying to say that Oswald never referred to Shelley in his interrogation?
It's kind of difficult to know what you're actually trying to say.

Just in case this is yet another instance where you have no idea about the evidence.
This is from James Bookhout's report 11/25/63:

"He thereafter went outside and stood for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelly, and thereafter went home. He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe there was going to be any more work that day due to the confusion in the building."

This incident is mentioned in Fritz's notes:

"out with Bill Shelley in front
lft wk opinion nothing to be done that day etc."

Ball is also aware of Oswald mentioning this incident and questions Shelley about it:

Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.
Mr. Ball: Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. Shelley: No, sir.

You believe the officers should have thrown Adams and Styles onto the ground and handcuffed them and then taken them in for interregation?

Are you suggesting that the police should have or were actually aiding people who were leaving the TSBD?

Wow.
You really have no idea what's going on.

he problem is your whole little theory has crapped out on you.

This issue was settled by the WC with the time stamps of the police involved decades ago. Not one point or analysis brought up by you has changed the understanding of Adams and Styles. Recently you have managed to reinforce it with Mitch Todd’s analysis.

D O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.”
postimages.org


In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.

-----------
This is mind-boggling that you could be so confused by this problem. It is just simple math, and by simple, I mean a third-grade word problem. 

I will post the math for you in case you are struggling with it. 

Basic facts, an average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.

At 4mph = 352 feet per minute

At 3mph = 264 feet per minute

TSBD dimensions-- 80 feet x 80 feet

TSBD dock addition --40 feet

4th floor to 1st floor –40 feet

 

You have stated they encountered Sgt Harkness and his officers behind the TSBD at 12:36 as per his lockdown time stamp.

If Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor and then encounter Sgt Harkness and his men behind the TSBD at 12:36 and Adams and Styles had walked approximately a distance of 200 feet from the 4th floor window, at a 4mph pace, when did they leave the fourth-floor window? The average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.

Sgt Harkness, and because you have been struggling so badly with this, I will add that he had men with him, you would not think that would have to be stated but it seems necessary for you to understand, locked down the back of the building at 12:36 which resulted in the girls being told to return to the building. The distance from the 4th floor where the girls started from and where they met the police in the back is approximately 200 feet. At a 3mph walking gait it would not have taken them but about a minute to reach the back. They stated they ran.

A minute from 12:36 is 12:35.

The distance to return to the front is approximately 250 feet. At the leisurely pace of 3mph it would take a minute. Sawyer stated he locked down the front at 12:37. Now you are even stating he locked it down a minute later at 12:38. Either way it does not change what is known.

It is good to see you add something positive about Adams and Styles travels, see you can add something positive to the understanding of the movements of the girls, adding more time only helps the understanding.

Seeing Shelley and Lovelady on their travels only further confirms their later departure.

 

[Jack Nessan]

 So you do understand?

Yes Jack, I do understand.
I understand you have no idea what's actually going on.

Based on the time stamps presented, the girls left later than they thought.

I'm going to reproduce the timeline I posted to show that there is not a single word in it that relates to the movements of Adams and Styles.
Not one single word.
There's no point in asking you what in the post shows that "the girls left later than they thought" because there isn't anything to point out.
You don't have a clue what's going on.

"I have a slightly different understanding of Sawyer's movements and timings but it has absolutely no bearing on how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. Regardless of Jack's Lie, Sawyer never makes any kind of statement that relates to how quickly Adams and Styles left the fourth floor. And neither do Harkness or Barnett. Dealing with someone who is prepared to lie makes any kind of reasoned debate almost impossible.
As I understand it, it's a good 5 or 6 minute drive from Sawyer's position near Main and Ervay down to the TSBD building and Sawyer makes it clear it is slow going at first due to the crowds. He hears Decker's voice urging people to get to the railroad yard so he heads that way. He is still in his car at 12:34pm when he hears mention of shots from the TSBD building and that becomes his focus.
I believe he pulls up outside the building about 12:36pm. Harkness has just made his call and is making his way from the railroad yard to the front of the TSBD building with Euins on board. We see Sawyer pulling up in the distance in the Martin(?) film. Harkness parks up and puts Euins in the back of Sawyer's car and Harkness sees Sawyer talking to officers by the steps. Sawyer is yet to enter the building.
Sawyer enters the building as Harkness goes round the back to seal off the rear entrance. Sawyer takes the lift in the lobby up to the fourth floor with two officers and an employee. I get the impression that Sawyer incorrectly believes he is on the floor the shooting took place. He has a very quick look round to establish there is no shooter on that floor. While he is on the fourth floor Baker and Truly show up in an elevator as they make their way back down from the roof and Baker has some kind of interaction with Sawyer, who then makes his way back down to the lobby. I believe it is about 12:38/12:39pm when Sawyer orders the lock down. He then goes outside and makes his first transmission at 12:40pm.
Around the time Sawyer is ordering the lock down, Adams, who is stood outside, hears the 12:38pm transmission mentioning the "second floor" that convinces her to go back inside the building. She almost doesn't make it back inside before the building is locked down. Styles has already re-entered unchallenged minutes earlier."

If there's any forum member who has a clue what Jack is talking about could they point it out.

It all relates to their movements. That is what you do not want to admit, and with good reason. In the light of comparing their statements to the police statements a better understanding of when they left is understood. Thanks for helping with it.

[Dan O'meara]

he problem is your whole little theory has crapped out on you.

This issue was settled by the WC with the time stamps of the police involved decades ago. Not one point or analysis brought up by you has changed the understanding of Adams and Styles. Recently you have managed to reinforce it with Mitch Todd’s analysis.

D O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.”
postimages.org


In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
Mr. BELIN. How soon after 12:36 p.m., would you say the building was sealed off?
Mr. HARKNESS. It was sealed off then because I was back there and two other men.

-----------
This is mind-boggling that you could be so confused by this problem. It is just simple math, and by simple, I mean a third-grade word problem. 

I will post the math for you in case you are struggling with it. 

Basic facts, an average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.

At 4mph = 352 feet per minute

At 3mph = 264 feet per minute

TSBD dimensions-- 80 feet x 80 feet

TSBD dock addition --40 feet

4th floor to 1st floor –40 feet

 

You have stated they encountered Sgt Harkness and his officers behind the TSBD at 12:36 as per his lockdown time stamp.

If Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor and then encounter Sgt Harkness and his men behind the TSBD at 12:36 and Adams and Styles had walked approximately a distance of 200 feet from the 4th floor window, at a 4mph pace, when did they leave the fourth-floor window? The average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.

Sgt Harkness, and because you have been struggling so badly with this, I will add that he had men with him, you would not think that would have to be stated but it seems necessary for you to understand, locked down the back of the building at 12:36 which resulted in the girls being told to return to the building. The distance from the 4th floor where the girls started from and where they met the police in the back is approximately 200 feet. At a 3mph walking gait it would not have taken them but about a minute to reach the back. They stated they ran.

A minute from 12:36 is 12:35.

The distance to return to the front is approximately 250 feet. At the leisurely pace of 3mph it would take a minute. Sawyer stated he locked down the front at 12:37. Now you are even stating he locked it down a minute later at 12:38. Either way it does not change what is known.

It is good to see you add something positive about Adams and Styles travels, see you can add something positive to the understanding of the movements of the girls, adding more time only helps the understanding.

Seeing Shelley and Lovelady on their travels only further confirms their later departure.

You're really starting to embarrass yourself now, Jack, and it's all getting a little sad.
Your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case and your general confusion, are making reasoned debate virtually impossible.

This issue was settled by the WC with the time stamps of the police involved decades ago.

The WC settled nothing. As I've explained elsewhere, the WC were complicit in fabricating a timeline that was specifically used to undermine the testimony of Vicki Adams. This is from Reply#401:

Just to be clear, Jack's Lie isn't that Vicki waited for four or five minutes before racing down to the first floor.
This is a Warren Commission Lie and, like a good little Nutter, Jack just regurgitates what the WC tells him to regurgitate.
On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time 75 seconds.
Five days later both men testify before the WC and talk about the time trials. So the times taken by Truly and Baker to get inside the TSBD building and up to the second floor are firmly established by this point.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and was there in 30-60 seconds and saw Lovelady and Shelley there. There is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the testimony of these proven liars to undermine the testimony of Adams!!This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor. A 'conclusion' all Nutters happily swallow down without question.
But this is not Jack's Lie.
Jack's Lie is that the testimonial evidence of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett refutes the timeline of Adams - that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot.

The WC not only allowed the lies of Shelley and Lovelady to stand unchallenged, they used these lies to undermine Adams' testimony, even though the lies completely contradicted the Baker/Truly timeline ( a timeline that had been firmly established by the time Shelley and Lovelady had their hearings).
There is no point in asking you to explain how the WC could accept these lies which completely contradicted the, already established, timelines provided by the Baker/Truly timelines.
There's probably no point even asking you if you understand what's being said here.
What can be said is that this issue is a real problem for all Nutters who just swallow down the WC's "narrative" whole.

D O’Meara: “In his WC testimony Harkness makes the point that at around 12:36pm he and two other officers go around the back of the building to seal it off and lock the building down:
In the diagram below the route Adams and Styles took is marked out. The circle is where Shelley and Lovelady were stood, the star is where Adams and Styles run into the police officer.”

I'm going to try, one last time, to explain your mistake. I'll explain it in a way that a child could understand.
Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm
Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.
However, your identification of the officer who encountered Adams and Styles as Harkness is completely made up by you.
You have invented this identification. I don't know if you understand that.
It's not a fact.
It's a figment of your imagination.
You then reverse engineer the situation using this imaginary identification - if the officer is Harkness and he was there around 12:36pm then Adams and Styles encountered him around 12:36pm therefore they must have lied about what time they left the fourth floor. This is all a figment of your imagination.
I can't explain it in a simpler way.
There's no point in getting into the fact that somebody locking down the building would not be stood about 50 ft away from the door and round the corner of the building, in a position where they couldn't even see the door. I think that would be too much information for you to process.

You have stated they encountered Sgt Harkness and his officers behind the TSBD at 12:36 as per his lockdown time stamp.

Errr...no, Jack. I'm not the one saying Adams and Styles encountered Harkness around 12:36pm
That's you who is saying that.
Don't you remember? 

If Adams and Styles leave the fourth floor and then encounter Sgt Harkness and his men behind the TSBD at 12:36 and Adams and Styles had walked approximately a distance of 200 feet from the 4th floor window, at a 4mph pace, when did they leave the fourth-floor window? The average person walks at a pace of 3 to 4 mph.

Once again, your ignorance regarding the facts of this case is shocking.
Adams states over and over and over again that she ran:

Mr. Belin: You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS: I was running. We were running.

Mr. Belin: You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS: Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.

Mr. Belin: Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Your idea, that Adams just strolled down the stairs and out of the building, just shows how little you know about this aspect of the case.
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have made to the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot, perfectly within her own estimation of "a minute at most". Given that she "ran to the railroad tracks", her encounter with the officer could have taken place within 60 seconds of the headshot. Remember, Barnett must have seen the same officer when he got to the back of the TSBD building seconds after the shooting.

TSBD dimensions-- 80 feet x 80 feet

Again, this is really basic information you should be aware of. The footprint of the TSBD building is a shade under 100ft by 100ft.

Sgt Harkness, and because you have been struggling so badly with this, I will add that he had men with him, you would not think that would have to be stated but it seems necessary for you to understand, locked down the back of the building at 12:36 which resulted in the girls being told to return to the building. The distance from the 4th floor where the girls started from and where they met the police in the back is approximately 200 feet.

Yet again, you are unaware of the basics.
Adams is specific that it is only one police officer who stops them. There is never any mention of multiple officers.
Just do some basic research. You really are making a fool of yourself.

[Martin Weidmann]

You're really starting to embarrass yourself now, Jack, and it's all getting a little sad.
Your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case and your general confusion, are making reasoned debate virtually impossible.

 

You've reached the same conclusion as I did, some time ago.

I'm just not sure if Nessan is confusing matters on purpose or if he truly doesn't (want to) understand what he is being told, but either way, it's a waste of time to talk to him.

You will never get him to understand or accept that it wasn't and couldn't have been Harkness or one of the men with him who encountered Adams and Styles, because it simply does not fit with the known facts.