Time for Truth

[Martin Weidmann]

No.  People who assassinate the president.  That entails death or arrest.  Are you really suggesting that someone could assassinate the president on a public street in the midst of law enforcement and secret service agents and expect to go home?  They would need "psychic" powers in your opinion to understand that it was incredibly risky with a likelihood of death or arrest.  Wow.  Can you cite some examples of presidential assassins who returned home?  Almost all of them were apprehended at the scene.  Booth - like Oswald - managed to escape arrest at the scene and made a run for it.  It's unreal that you are arguing that Oswald would not expect to be arrested or killed on Nov. 22 if he planned to assassinate the president that day.  I've read some far out conspiracy theories on this forum and some really idiotic claims but this one is an outlier even by those low standards.

They would need "psychic" powers in your opinion to understand that it was incredibly risky with a likelihood of death or arrest.  Wow.

I never said that. You just made that up. Of course killing the President would be risky, and Oswald, if he wanted to kill Kennedy, would probably have understood that, but that's not what you claimed. You said;

Oswald knew that assassinating the president carried with it his death or arrest.  That is why he left his wedding ring and most of his money with his wife.  He wasn't ever coming back. He could not have escaped after committing that crime. 

and that's simply not true. Oswald could not have known that with certainty, when he left his wedding ring behind.

As per usual your entire "logic" is flawed. Why? Because if it wasn't Oswald who killed Kennedy, then somebody else did and that person most likely simply went home.

[Richard Smith]

They would need "psychic" powers in your opinion to understand that it was incredibly risky with a likelihood of death or arrest.  Wow.

I never said that. You just made that up. Of course killing the President would be risky, and Oswald, if he wanted to kill Kennedy, would probably have understood that, but that's not what you claimed. You said;

and that's simply not true. Oswald could not have known that with certainty, when he left his wedding ring behind.

As per usual your entire "logic" is flawed. Why? Because if it wasn't Oswald who killed Kennedy, then somebody else did and that person most likely simply went home.

You have really lost it here.  If Oswald was planning to assassinate the president, then he knew it might happen that day.  The fact that it was possible that he might not get the opportunity doesn't change this analysis.  That is profound idiocy.  I've explained to you as to a small child, that if something had arisen to preclude Oswald from making the attempt, then he would just retrieve his wedding ring on his next trip home.  If anyone asked, all he has to say is that he forgot it.  What is so difficult about this to understand?   Good grief.   Again, if Oswald intended to assassinate the president that day, he would have fully understood that it entailed the likelihood of his arrest or death.  He would not need to be psychic to understand this.  He leaves his wedding ring at home for that reason.  If, however, something arose to preclude him from making the attempt, then he just goes about his business and retrieves his ring the next time he is at the Paine residence.  I'm shocked that you either can't understand this or are just playing the endless contrarian even though it is humiliating. 

[Martin Weidmann]

You have really lost it here.  If Oswald was planning to assassinate the president, then he knew it might happen that day.  The fact that it was possible that he might not get the opportunity doesn't change this analysis.  That is profound idiocy.  I've explained to you as to a small child, that if something had arisen to preclude Oswald from making the attempt, then he would just retrieve his wedding ring on his next trip home.  If anyone asked, all he has to say is that he forgot it.  What is so difficult about this to understand?   Good grief.   Again, if Oswald intended to assassinate the president that day, he would have fully understood that it entailed the likelihood of his arrest or death.  He would not need to be psychic to understand this.  He leaves his wedding ring at home for that reason.  If, however, something arose to preclude him from making the attempt, then he just goes about his business and retrieves his ring the next time he is at the Paine residence.  I'm shocked that you either can't understand this or are just playing the endless contrarian even though it is humiliating.

Still desperately looking for a way out of yet another mess you have created?

You went from;

Oswald knew that assassinating the president carried with it his death or arrest.  That is why he left his wedding ring and most of his money with his wife.  He wasn't ever coming back. He could not have escaped after committing that crime. 

to;

If Oswald was planning to assassinate the president, then he knew it might happen that day

and

if Oswald intended to assassinate the president that day, he would have fully understood that it entailed the likelihood of his arrest or death.

First you have Oswald leaving his wedding ring behind because he knew he would be killed or arrested and would never return home.

Now, it is that Oswald understood that he might be arrested or killed and if that didn't take place or something happened that prevented an assassination attempt, he would just go home as if nothing had happened.

That is so pathetically weak!

Even weaker, but a perfect example of your dishonesty, is that you ignored the reason why your entire "logic" is flawed. So, I'll repeat it here again;

You said;

No.  People who assassinate the president.  That entails death or arrest.  Are you really suggesting that someone could assassinate the president on a public street in the midst of law enforcement and secret service agents and expect to go home? 

and my answer was;

If it wasn't Oswald who killed Kennedy, then somebody else did and that person most likely simply went home.   

But don't worry. I won't hold it against you that you are unable to understand what I am telling you.

[Zeon Mason]

As long as DPD officer Barnetts WC testimony time stamp of 3 minutes post shots locking the TSBD  front doors stands as a probable certainty, then there’s no way to work out Oswald leaving the TSBD to be seen by BW. Frazier in the vicinity of Elm st and Houston st. Just before BWF returned into TSBD via the front door BEFORE it was locked.

As long as Mrs Reid’s WC testimony of Oswald and 2min time trial via the Belin stop watch trial remains as a probable certainty, there is no way to get Oswald to the front door by 3 minutes post shots let alone to meet a reporter Peirce Allman In the front lobby at 2min 45 sec post shots. ( Allman allegedly to entered TSBD before the front doors were locked )

Reid said Oswald appeared to be wearing only a T- shirt which de facto means he had to have taken OFF his brown shirt ( and or jacket too) just after he was seen by DPD officer Baker approx 90 sec post shots.

Reid suggested Oswald walked slowly across the office floor.

If “slow”= 3ft/sec pace and the distance was approx 90 ft from vestibule door to the front office door, then Oswald would not have exited the office until 2 min 30 sec post shots

If the WC theory implies  it’s a probable certainty that Oswald WAS wearing his jacket when he left the TSBD, then Oswald de facto must return to the 2nd floor lunchroom via an 80 ft long outer hallway, and another 10 ft of vestibule space and some distance into the lunchroom, to retrieve his brown shirt at the least and or his jacket too.

If Oswald double timed ran at 8 ft per/ sec down the hallway it would still take at least approx 15 secs ( includes about 3 secs to put on his brown shirt before exiting).
Therefore Oswald would not have exited again from lunchroom until approx 2 min 45 sec post shots.

It’s difficult to see how then Oswald could have ever made it out the front door of TSBD just secs before 3 min post shots Officer Barnett supposedly locked the front door.

[Alan Ford]

It’s difficult to see how then Oswald could have ever made it out the front door of TSBD just secs before 3 min post shots Officer Barnett supposedly locked the front door.

As already explained, Mr Mason, he didn't:

He left AFTER the building had been locked down.

According to Mr Harry D. Holmes, Mr Oswald in custody recalled being stopped at the front door by an officer, who only let him pass when he was cleared as an employee by his superintendent of the place. The superintendent of the place was Mr Roy Truly.

From Asst. Chief Charles Batchelor's report on the activities of Deputy Chief of Police George L. Lumpkin:



Mr Oswald knew the precise system that had been put in place several minutes after the shooting-----i.e. Mr Truly at the front door vouching for employees to a police officer-----because Officer Kaminski, having checked with Mr. Truly, allowed him to step outside.

Mr. Billy Lovelady saw this, and told Mr. James Jarman all about it. From Mr. Jarman's HSCA interview:

Well, there was a Billy Lovelady standing out there, he was on the steps, see... Oswald was coming out the door and [Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policemen that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

The Martin film shows that precise system in operation (Mr. Truly is standing behind the glass [right of screen]).
Mr. Lovelady is standing on the steps.
All as per Mr. Jarman's account.
Substitute the black man being ushered through the door here with Mr. Oswald, and we have the scene as described by Mr. Lovelady to Mr. Jarman:



NB! Mr. Oswald was given permission to step outside. He was NOT given permission to leave the scene. But he did.

[Zeon Mason]

According to BE Frazier, he went back inside the TSBD BEFORE the doors got locked.

And his alleged (50+ years later memory) sighting of Oswald in the Elm st/ Houston st intersection happened just BEFORE Frazier entered the TSBD, which would require Oswald to have exited the TSBD IF Oswald had been inside, by 2min 45 sec at the latest.

But what if it’s a case of Oswald being OUTSIDE ON THE STEPS at time of shots fired per FBI agent Hosty notes?.

Oswald could simply have run out into that intersection from his place on the front steps immediately following the shots fired.

He could therefore have been seen by Frazier as early as only 1-2 minutes post shots near the Elm st/Houston st intersection, and there would still be enough time for Oswald to run back to the  front steps ( post Darnell film) and re enter TSBD well before Barnett locked the doors at 3 min post shots.

Then Oswald finds himself basically trapped in the TSBD and has to wait 8 minutes until Truly returns from the rooftop , shows up in the front lobby and Truly motions to officers  guarding the front door at this time, to open the door and Oswald is verified and let out.

Does this somehow coincide with Roger Craig’s sighting of a man he thought looked like Oswald at the SW comer of TSBD, at 12:45pm, running down to a Rambler station wagon driven by DC man after a whistle was heard?

[Alan Ford]

According to BE Frazier, he went back inside the TSBD BEFORE the doors got locked.

Whatever the credibility of Mr. Frazier's claim about seeing Mr. Oswald a few minutes after the shooting, the post-lockdown building was more leaky than than you assume, Mr Mason.

Here, for example, is Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams before the WC:

Mr. McCLOY. Were you physically kept from leaving the building when you got downstairs? Did you try to go out of the building?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I wasn't trying to go out of the building because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we arrived on the first floor, I heard an officer shout out and say, "No one leave the building."

And yet here is Mr. Williams out on the front steps just a few minutes after the assassination:



How did he get out? Mr. Truly must have vouched for him at the door.

In the other direction, Mr. Lovelady himself is out on the steps here too, and yet we know he got back in at some point after this. As did Mr. Arce. As indeed did Mr. Williams.

Thus the idea that it would have been impossible for Mr. Frazier to re-enter the building after ~12:33 just doesn't hold up.

The crucial point: Mr. Oswald took advantage of the rather lax door policy. Like e.g. Mr. Bonnie Ray Williams, he was permitted to step outside---but told not to leave the scene. Unlike Mr. Williams, he did leave the scene.

[Alan J. Ford]

Top of the morning to you, Mr. Mason, as always you ask some rather intriguing questions. Between you, Mr. Ford, and the dynamic-duo of Mr. Weidmann(sp) & Mr. Iacoletti, those of us reading along have the best chances of arriving at the plain simple truth in this six decade old case. We can always count on the dynamic-duo mentioned above to keep the LNs in check whenever they slip into overdrive parroting back a hastily contrived script mired in the stench of horse manure to frame an innocent party.

That said, I'm taking the liberty here of making a response (bold lettering) to your post below...

According to BE Frazier, he went back inside the TSBD BEFORE the doors got locked.

And his alleged (50+ years later memory) sighting of Oswald in the Elm st/ Houston st intersection happened just BEFORE Frazier entered the TSBD, which would require Oswald to have exited the TSBD IF Oswald had been inside, by 2min 45 sec at the latest.

But what if it’s a case of Oswald being OUTSIDE ON THE STEPS at time of shots fired per FBI agent Hosty notes?.

Spot-On! There's lil' doubt about where the wrongly-accused really was that afternoon. Right where he and Mr. Hosty's notes said he was all along.

Oswald could simply have run out into that intersection from his place on the front steps immediately following the shots fired.

Not an unreasonable reaction, especially if he caught a glimpse of James Richard Worrell Jr., 20, reactions near the intersection of Elm & Houston ---->

Mr. SPECTER - Now, how close were you standing to this building which I will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that?
Mr. WORRELL - That is the Texas Depository.
Mr. SPECTER - All right. Now how close to that building were you standing?
Mr. WORRELL - I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you standing with your face to the building, with your back to the building, or how?
Mr. WORRELL - My back was to the building.
Mr. SPECTER - Where did you run, which is what you have just described that you did next?
Mr. WORRELL -I ran down Houston Street alongside the building

Again, it wouldn't be unreasonable for the wrongly-accused and/or anyone for that matter to instinctively believe someone taking flight in the manner of Mr. Worrell may be the responsible party producing the gunfire, and simply ran towards the Elm & Houston intersection to get a much closer look.

He could therefore have been seen by Frazier as early as only 1-2 minutes post shots near the Elm st/Houston st intersection, and there would still be enough time for Oswald to run back to the  front steps ( post Darnell film) and re enter TSBD well before Barnett locked the doors at 3 min post shots.

Then Oswald finds himself basically trapped in the TSBD and has to wait 8 minutes until Truly returns from the rooftop , shows up in the front lobby and Truly motions to officers  guarding the front door at this time, to open the door and Oswald is verified and let out.

Quick question? Have you ever seen any photo(s) of Roy "nothing truly about him" and Baker atop the roof? If so please produce it because I have a same day affidavit in my research files where a Dallas County Sheriff (running up the same backstairs as the lying rooftop tandem claimed they did) came upon access to the rooftop where his affidavit says, quote, "the door to the roof was locked on the inside", therefore he returned backstairs. Roy "nothing truly about him" and Baker had a script to follow, nothing more, nothing less...

Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder. -- George Washington

Does this somehow coincide with Roger Craig’s sighting of a man he thought looked like Oswald at the SW comer of TSBD, at 12:45pm, running down to a Rambler station wagon driven by DC man after a whistle was heard?

That said, Mr. Ford, should you happen along sir, Any idea what the Black man's name is? (in Mr. Hughes' film, where I believe the wrongly-accused is reentering the TSBD). Meanwhile, I'll take a virtual stroll through the CE 1381 statements to account for every Negro employee on scene that fateful afternoon to get an idea that IF that figure in the Hughes film is a man of colour...perhaps there may be a clue in there who it could be. Just strange that he would be wearing the same attire as the wrongly-accused (familiar reddish brown openly worn shirt and grey coloured pants as well) IF he is indeed a Black man there are at least five (5) of them on scene that afternoon who are MUCH heavier and donning different attire than the gentleman seen in Mr. Hughes' capture. Back later this week to share more specifics on this individual.

Meanwhile, a quick follow-up post, courtesy of the exemplary research of Joan Mellon as I continue to make a connection with Bureau agent Warren_C_Debrueys, who I'm beginning to believe was the wrongly-accused's handler in New Orleans and Dallas as well.