Time for Truth

[John Mytton]

Sorry Mr. Bugliosi Dangerfield

I personally think you are VERY rational, and I follow your arguments and agree about 50% or more and struggle with questions you ask such as “How did the MC rifle get to 6th floor?

No worries Mr Robot, and thank you.

I also appreciate your honesty, and yes if it wasn't Oswald then “How did the MC rifle get to 6th floor?" is a doozy.

Some hardcore CT's suggest that C2766 was not sent to Oswald, and that the 40 inch Carcano photographed with Oswald just after it was "supposedly" sent by Kliens is just a coincidence, yet this coincidence they can never explain but for some reason it's my fault to insist that it's a reasonable inference to reach the logical conclusion based on the still not disproven evidence.

As I have said previously, to go to such absurd lengths to keep C2766 out of Oswald's hands is detrimental to the Conspiracy cause and it would be far better just to accept it and find some other tree to bark up.

Just imagine in court that some conspiracy biased lawyer tried to Defend Oswald, with the very basic philosophy that almost every bit of evidence was faked, planted, and lied about and that all the Civilian eyewitnesses were mistaken etc etc, said Lawyer would be laughed out of court, yet here on this Forum, some members do exactly that and they congratulate each other with thumbs up. Hilarious!

JohnM

[John Iacoletti]

What’s hilarious is that “Mytton” thinks appeals to ignorance and shifting the burden are effective arguments for his fantasy conclusion.

[John Mytton]

What’s hilarious is that “Mytton” thinks appeals to ignorance and shifting the burden are effective arguments for his fantasy conclusion.

This is the perfect encapsulation of the faith based Conspiracy Mind set. Btw I like how you search through various "argument fallacy" lists and present inappropriate fallacies/appeals that set you up as yet another evidence avoiding, self serving arbiter. Also from previous interactions, whenever I see you put my Forum name in quotes, you are stuck, will predictably lack any meaningful refuation and will present a nonsense diversionary tactic which is perfectly illustrated in your above response. Thanks for being so boringly predictable.

The CT's dismiss the evidence for the most absurd reasons and keep demanding that the Proven Evidence needs to bne Proven to some newly invented unreasonable standard by essentially splitting the split hair, then claim it's my burden to reprove some newly thought up objection. It's truly never ending.

Using my example that you responded to.

The coupon, envelope and Waldman 7 in Kleins completed business documents which all indicate Oswald's return PO Box which in any other case would be more than enough evidence to prove that someone sent an order then the order was fulfilled. But welcome to the Bonkers World of the ever more demanding Conspiracy Buff, where by their circular logic of "knowing" Oswald is innocent means something more is required and needs a new level of proof, or they conclude that this new evidence was faked or somebody lied, etc etc.
The original investigation went above and beyond the call of duty and tracked down the Money Order, established that Crescent sent Kleins C2766, found Lifschultz who transported C2766 and acquired the Kleins banking records. But how could the Warren Commission possibly be aware that this intricate level of intensive investigation still wouldn't be enough.
For example;

1. A member of this Forum who's new demand is that the writing on Kleins business document Waldman 7 needs verification. And if for some reason the WC could see the future and had a few words on Waldman 7 verified then the next split hair would be split even further and the usual someone must have lied or the form is fake, proves that something is sinister. There will never be evidence that will ever be satisfactory, the rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper.

2. The microfilm is "missing"! For a start as far as I know, this has only been claimed by 1 CT(Armstrong) and even if true how is this relevant, Waldman verified the microfilm way back when the assassination actually happened, I doubt that 60 years later that any one is left alive that can verify it's authenticity but every time the microfilm is mentioned some "clever" Ct adds "missing", because in their mind it must mean conspiracy! Obviously nothing new from this microfilm can be proved but so what, it's "MISSING"!!

3. In the verified Oswald documents, I haven't seen any examples besides the Hidell revolver coupon, where Oswald was forced into writing in a very small area. But with next to no samples of scrunched up writing to compare, another member here casts doubt because only 2 Block letters could be matched, No Kidding Einstein! But the envelope where Oswald had plenty of room to write had plenty of matches but for some reason said member wants to separate this single Microfilm image into two because they could be separate orders?, but if there was actually two different separate images for the Coupon and Envelope then by the above reasoning it would be up to the honest LNer to prove that they were part of the same order. Round and round we go.

4. The money order has a solid chain of custody so the keen CT  first casts doubt and attacks any authority figure along this chain but having no luck, starts attacking the Money Order itself, and again we have amateurs with no banking experience deciding the inauthenticity of the Money Order. Madness. Luckily Lance from the Ed Forum put this issue to bed, well until the next time, when a new split hair is split.

5. The Dallas Post Office must have someone who remembered giving the rifle package to Oswald. Another unrealistic request considering the length of time and the number of packages that they deal with on a daily basis.

I could go on but why bother, there will NEVER be enough evidence for the true Buff and anyone and their dog can invent some new unattainable or missing piece of evidence and then create doubt because this evidence MUST be produced or there MUST be a conspiracy. For just 1 of many avenues for conspiracy, I have demonstrated the amount of effort required to magically create the Hidell persona, but still I am required to prove the already proven evidence to some unknown or knowingly unattainable standard that it's all authentic, then the hollow victory is declared. It's all a bit sad really.

The modern CT can't see the forest for the trees.

JohnM

[John Iacoletti]

Btw I like how you search through various "argument fallacy" lists and present inappropriate fallacies/appeals that set you up as yet another evidence avoiding, self serving arbiter.

Uh, that’s what you recently did when you trotted out 5 logical fallacies that didn’t even apply in some sort of retaliatory hissy fit.

Also from previous interactions, whenever I see you put my Forum name in quotes, you are stuck, will predictably lack any meaningful refuation and will present a nonsense diversionary tactic which is perfectly illustrated in your above response.

No, I put “Mytton” in quotes because it’s not your name.

The CT's dismiss the evidence for the most absurd reasons and keep demanding that the Proven Evidence needs to bne Proven to some newly invented unreasonable standard by essentially splitting the split hair, then claim it's my burden to reprove some newly thought up objection. It's truly never ending.

Reliable and conclusive evidence that proves your claims beyond a reasonable doubt. How “unreasonable” 

The coupon, envelope and Waldman 7 in Kleins completed business documents which all indicate Oswald's return PO Box which in any other case would be more than enough evidence to prove that someone sent an order then the order was fulfilled.

No, in “any other case” something that isn’t evidence of shipment isn’t evidence of shipment.

But welcome to the Bonkers World of the ever more demanding Conspiracy Buff, where by their circular logic of "knowing" Oswald is innocent means something more is required and needs a new level of proof, or they conclude that this new evidence was faked or somebody lied, etc etc.

Strawman. Next?

The original investigation went above and beyond the call of duty and tracked down the Money Order, established that Crescent sent Kleins C2766, found Lifschultz who transported C2766 and acquired the Kleins banking records. But how could the Warren Commission possibly be aware that this intricate level of intensive investigation still wouldn't be enough.

“The Warren Commission worked really hard, therefore their conclusions were correct”.

2. The microfilm is "missing"! For a start as far as I know, this has only been claimed by 1 CT(Armstrong) and even if true how is this relevant, Waldman verified the microfilm way back when the assassination actually happened, I doubt that 60 years later that any one is left alive that can verify it's authenticity but every time the microfilm is mentioned some "clever" Ct adds "missing", because in their mind it must mean conspiracy! Obviously nothing new from this microfilm can be proved but so what, it's "MISSING"!!

Waldman didn’t “verify” anything. For one thing he had nothing to do with filling the orders, generating the paperwork or creating the microfilm. Also, the microfilm was confiscated before he ever looked at it. As such, he was a very curious pick for the WC to interview.

3. In the verified Oswald documents, I haven't seen any examples besides the Hidell revolver coupon, where Oswald was forced into writing in a very small area. But with next to no samples of scrunched up writing to compare, another member here casts doubt because only 2 Block letters could be matched, No Kidding Einstein! But the envelope where Oswald had plenty of room to write had plenty of matches but for some reason said member wants to separate this single Microfilm image into two because they could be separate orders?, but if there was actually two different separate images for the Coupon and Envelope then by the above reasoning it would be up to the honest LNer to prove that they were part of the same order. Round and round we go.

4. The money order has a solid chain of custody so the keen CT  first casts doubt and attacks any authority figure along this chain but having no luck, starts attacking the Money Order itself, and again we have amateurs with no banking experience deciding the inauthenticity of the Money Order. Madness. Luckily Lance from the Ed Forum put this issue to bed, well until the next time, when a new split hair is split.

5. The Dallas Post Office must have someone who remembered giving the rifle package to Oswald. Another unrealistic request considering the length of time and the number of packages that they deal with on a daily basis.

I could go on but why bother, there will NEVER be enough evidence for the true Buff and anyone and their dog can invent some new unattainable or missing piece of evidence and then create doubt because this evidence MUST be produced or there MUST be a conspiracy. For just 1 of many avenues for conspiracy, I have demonstrated the amount of effort required to magically create the Hidell persona, but still I am required to prove the already proven evidence to some unknown or knowingly unattainable standard that it's all authentic, then the hollow victory is declared. It's all a bit sad really.

This long rant basically amounts to whining that finding good evidence to support your claims is too hard, therefore questionable evidence or non-evidence should be “good enough” because that’s the best you can do. And your faith demands that you believe it, regardless. Therefore, so should everybody else.

[Zeon Mason]

The problem is that it just seems incredibly stupid that Oswald would have used his P.O. Box to  list a  secondary fake name to receive mail at that same address.

If Oswald could make a fake ID then why not just open a P.O. Box addressed ONLY to that fake name and then there’s virtually no link to himself , since in 1963 there were not many cameras recording people in real time as much as in 2023.

Because Oswald seemed fairly smart in his ability to get in and out of the U.S.S.R. and was able to speak fluent Russian, then is it not plausible to suggest that Oswald was NOT a stupid person?

Somewhere I read that Oswald’s IQ was only 108, but I don’t know if that’s really true or if it could be part of an CIA defector program to hide the true ability of Oswald if he were in fact a CIA operative in such program.

There’s also the stupidity of ordering a rifle by  mail and creating a paper trail when it would have been just as easy to buy a rifle from some shady gun dealer for cash.

Then there’s the curiosity of  leaving the serial no.on the rifle and the pistol and why  not get the pistol from  some other shady character instead of ordering it by mail?

Since there appears to be some evidence of Oswald having had a  meticulous plan of finding Gen Walker, getting to the scene by bus or other means and carrying a rifle without being seen,  it’s reasonable to question why Oswald would make it so easy to trace a rifle and a pistol to himself , when he had other options which if he were such a meticulous person, then he theoretically should have figured out a better plan.

Oswald having his wife take  a picture of himself holding an MC rifle was pretty stupid also, if he were intending to use an MC rifle in any criminal act, so it’s either a case of kook stupidity, or it’s a case of Oswald being set up somehow, or believing himself to be on some CIA mission whether real or imagined.

[Alan J. Ford]

There are a multitude of witnesses who confirm Oswald was elsewhere in the known timeframe that makes your premise impossible. Not a single one of Oswald's coworkers put him there.

These same "multitude of witnesses", Mr. Smith, were given a hastily contrived script mired in the stench of horse manure to parrot back, nothing more, nothing less. The deception surrounding the events at 10th & Patton were nothing more than a crafty invention placing the wrongly-accused nowhere near where he truly was (still in Dealey Plaza post-assassination time @ 1:12PM CST). Please spare those of us reading along here the horse manure about the wrongly-accused even admitting to going to his rooming house (another clever deceptive rendering to place him in proximity of 10th & Patton, while stopping at his rooming house to fetch a fictitious pistol and change his shirt that he is wearing in Mr. Mentesana's film capture post-assassination time while still in Dealey Plaza and yet again at his midnight presser)...Care to explain that away, Mr. Smith?  you want to usher in some "evidence" that suggests after supposedly changing his shirt he went back to the rooming house and switched back into his original-and-only shirt he wore that afternoon (in Dealey Plaza, in front of the shoe store, at the Texas Theatre, and once again at his midnight presser.

There is no audio recording of the wrongly-accused saying anything they said he said. Care to prove that assertion wrong, Mr. Smith? Cannot do it, can you? There's a reason for that. They said he said this or said that because they knew there would be no rebuttal...dead men cannot speak.

Now, to your 2nd comment, quote, Not a single one of Oswald's coworkers put him there, unquote

meaning the post-assassination time of 1:12Pm as depicted in Mr. Mentesana's film. Of course, none of his lying coworkers would dare come off script...

Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder. -- George Washington

yet both Mr. Williams (Bonnie) and Mr. Lovelady (Billy Nolan) watched him climb the entrance steps in the Hughes film post-assassination time as the wrongly-accused enters the TSBD building. The issue here for you and every LN is the wrongly-accused remains in the same shirt  from post-assassination time 1:12PM as depicted by Mr. Mentesana's film right through to his midnight presser, further buttressed by the separate descriptions along the same timeline sequence given by employees at the shoe store and movie theatre respectively. Both of them describe the wrongly-accused's attire as depicted in Mr. Mentesana's film right down to even agreeing with the manner of dress...different time sequences but the same outcome @ wearing the same attire.

Your "multitude of witnesses", Mr. Smith, are simply parrots parroting back a hastily contrived script mired in the stench of horse manure to align with what those framing an innocent party  said he said he did (please excuse the eyeroll). Now, a simple question, unless of course you care to cower away from it again, How do you explain away how the wrongly-accused is depicted in five different sequences post-assassination time wearing the same attire he is factually in, yet support a hastily contrived script mired in the stench of horse manure?


The wrongly-accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody.

[Alan J. Ford]

LNs are stumped...

they cannot explain away why the wrongly accused remained in Dealey Plaza post-assassination time, well after the hastily contrived script mired in the stench of horse manure said he was elsewhere.

Mr. Brewer: He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN. Any jacket?
Mr. BREWEB No.
Mr. BELIN. Any other clothing that you noticed?
Mr. BREWER. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.
Mr. BELIN. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?
Mr. BREWER. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Sound familiar folks?

Only one single individual in Dealey Plaza that afternoon wore this particular brown shirt and in the manner described by multiple witnesses and/or filmed post-assassination time (see the embedded video below and freeze the frame at the times noted) Same shirt, same untucked dress manner.

Texas Theatre employee Julia Postal described the same attire worn in the same fashion. Both her and Mr. Brewer's observations are further confirmed when the wrongly-accused is escorted from the Texas Theatre donning the same clothing as depicted by both these post-assassination witnesses. It's of particular interests that in both the Texas Theatre images and the film taken by Mr. Hughes post-assassination time in Dealey Plaza we actually get to also see the same grey coloured pants worn with the brown shirt in Dealey Plaza and upon the wrongly-accused being escorted from the movie theatre.

To further buttress both Mr. Mentesana's post-assassination film and Mr. Hughes' post-assassination film footage as well, we all are privy to the the wrongly-accused's clothing attire and the manner he wore it (see Mr. Brewer's testimony above), because he wore the same clothing in the same manner at his midnight presser.

Mr. Hughes (Robert) freeze at 8:03 -- 8:04 as the wrongly-accused reenters the TSBD post-assassination time; and Mr. Mentesana's post-assassination time capture of the wrongly-accused still in Dealey Plaza post-assassination time freeze at 8:44 -- 8:52...

Same brown shirt, worn in the same manner in all sequence instances in Dealey Plaza post-assassination time; and described in detail by both Mr. Brewer (Johnny) and Ms. Postal (Julia) as well. The slam-dunk is the midnight presser (same shirt, same manner of dress).

The nefarious invention about the wrongly-accused going to his rooming house was just that a deceptive invention to place him where it served the interests of those framing him, nothing more, nothing less. He said this, he said that (Riiiiight) Amazing what some people will do for thirty pieces of silver (bunch of lying treasonous cowards).

The wrongly-accused did not shoot anybody. Anybody. It's time for truth.

[Zeon Mason]

Apology to Alan Ford for diversionary discussion with Mr Buglio Mytton whom I no doubt will never be swayed there was a conspiracy of ANY sort.

That’s his perception of the “truth” and I can see why he  made his conclusion IF he believes the evidence is essentially sound and that anomalous details have plausible explanations

For myself,however, the magnitude of so many anomalies seems to defy mere incompetent handling of evidence, and or confusion of overlapping agencies of FBI CIA, SS, DPD conducting their parallel investigations, as a suitable explanation.

The PM theory was one of  the best alternative CT theories , It seemed to me and many other CTs , because the figure resembles Oswald and the location in that corner a logical place that an aloof character as Oswald, would go if he arrived late to the steps at 12:29, having been prompted from having seen Norman and Jarman renter TSBD from rear door whilst Oswald was eating his lunch on the Domino room at 12:25.

However since no one on this forum has substantially proved the newest version of Darnell image of PM is some  kind of fake image or that the effect of the white ring around the neck of PM is some anomaly caused by translation of the original Darnell to computer pixel format, then reluctantly, Oswald =PM is rendered doubtful.

Grant me my suspicions of doctored imaging of the Darnell film , due to what other images  Mr. Ford has already shown in the lengthy PM discussion thread such as the dark shadow anomaly in Weigman film and the Cronkite version of the Altgens no.6 photo. Image alteration which suggests some government coverup efforts to negate the Hosty interview notes of Oswald began  at the very start of Will Fritz investigation in 1963.