The Position of the Bolt on the MC


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Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #216 on: July 29, 2022, 10:09:46 PM »

There are some things in life that, even though you think you are prepared for them, they still shock you. I canít imagine wanting to kill anyone. But I can imagine being shocked at the sight that he must have seen.

More of a WTF in Oswald's case

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #216 on: July 29, 2022, 10:09:46 PM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #217 on: July 29, 2022, 10:29:24 PM »
Cool.

Look at this photo of the Ozwald incriminating evidence. The spent cartridge on the left seems to have abrasions - caused by the elevator?




Where is this pic from Jim, because the clip on the table is not the same as the clip in evidence for the WC [CE575]?

Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #218 on: July 29, 2022, 11:16:52 PM »
For what it's worth, on page 188 of JFK First Day Evidence by Gary Savage, a photo of a carbon copy of an original report to J. E. Curry written and signed by J.C. Day dated 1/8/64 appears. In it Day writes:

About 1:25 pm Captain J.W. Fritz, #9 directed Lieutenant Day to the northwest portion of the sixth floor where a rifle had been found between some cartons near the stairs. Photographs were taken of the rifle as found, then it was picked up by Lieutenant Day in such a way as to destroy no fingerprints that might be present. With Lieutenant Day holding the gun, Captain Fritz opened the bolt and a live shell fell from the barrel. This shell was in position to fire should the trigger be pulled. The live shell was checked for prints, marked for Identification and released to Captain Fritz. No fingerprints were found.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #218 on: July 29, 2022, 11:16:52 PM »


Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #219 on: July 29, 2022, 11:28:15 PM »
For what it's worth, on page 188 of JFK First Day Evidence by Gary Savage, a photo of a carbon copy of an original report to J. E. Curry written and signed by J.C. Day dated 1/8/64 appears. In it Day writes:

About 1:25 pm Captain J.W. Fritz, #9 directed Lieutenant Day to the northwest portion of the sixth floor where a rifle had been found between some cartons near the stairs. Photographs were taken of the rifle as found, then it was picked up by Lieutenant Day in such a way as to destroy no fingerprints that might be present. With Lieutenant Day holding the gun, Captain Fritz opened the bolt and a live shell fell from the barrel. This shell was in position to fire should the trigger be pulled. The live shell was checked for prints, marked for Identification and released to Captain Fritz. No fingerprints were found.

This shell was in position to fire should the trigger be pulled.

Question for you Mr Collins.... Is it possible to pull the trigger and fire a cartridge with the bolt not down and latched?

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #220 on: July 29, 2022, 11:48:56 PM »
Noticed this in Day's WC testimony:

"When bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. No prints are on the live round. Captain Fritz and Lieutenant Day opened the barrel. Captain Fritz has the live round. Three spent hulls were found under the window. They were picked up by Detective Sims and witnessed by Lieutenant Day and Studebaker. The clip is stamped 'SMI, 9 x 2.'"

Decided to check it out. This is a close up pic of CE575:



It appears to be stamped 8MI 952 (could be SMI) but Day's mistake can be understood.
However, I went back to the picture posted by Jim of all the evidence on the table and took a close up of the clip:



Is it my imagination but I can't see the 952 on the right hand side of the clip.
Also, there seems to be something next to 8MI that looks like the number 18 in a circle.



Is it just my tired old eyes or am I missing something?

LATER EDIT: It must be my tired old eyes - just noticed it doesn't have 8MI stamped on Jim's clip, it has 81M.
And this doesn't seem to be stamped on, it looks written on.
The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip....

I have a brass clip and a Blue steel clip ......The two clips look a bit different when compared side by side....   The steel of the blue steel clip is stamped more clearly than the brass clip... ( I'm referring to the grooves at the sides of the clips ( the grooves that hold the rim of the cartridge when the cartridge is in the clip )  The steel of the steel clip is thinner than the metal of the brass clip and since brass is a soft metal, it can't be stamped as crisply as the steel clip.   

My brass clip is stamped SMI ( SOCIETA METALLURGICA ITALIANA ) on the left side  of the clip and there is a five point star follwed by the numerals 36 on the right side ....  I believe that means the clip was manufactured in Italy in 1936.

The Blue steel clip is stamped SMI on the left side and there is a five oint star followed by the number 39 on the right side. I believe that the blue steel clip was made in Italy in 1939. 

The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip and it was manufactured in Italy in 1952......

If that's true then the clip in the photo definitely is NOT the clip that was in the rifle when Day was examining the rifle.   

I'm not guessing about the stamping on the clips...because the cardboard box that they came in was that small box of 24 cartridges that was issued to the Italian soldiers.   I have four of those cardboard boxes and it says right on the box " Societa Metallurgica Italiana" it is also marked "fornaci di Baga" which I guess  might be the name of the person who packaged the loaded clips.   It is also stamped SMI 1936.

I large letters it is stamped "A. Pallottola" then smaller letters "Armi mo 91E" mitragliatrici, And then in large letters...SOLENITE    Anybody who understands Italian can tell us what all that means...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 02:15:44 AM by Walt Cakebread »

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #221 on: July 30, 2022, 12:03:00 AM »
The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip....

I have a brass clip and a Blue steel clip ......The two clips look a bit different when compared side by side....   The steel of the blue steel clip is stamped more clearly than the brass clip... ( I'm referring to the grooves at the sides of the clips ( the grooves that hold the rim of the cartridge when the cartridge is in the clip )  The steel of the steel clip is thinner than the metal of the brass clip and since brass is a soft metal, it can't be stamped as crisply as the steel clip.   

My brass clip is stamped SMI ( SOCIETA METALLURGICA ITALIANA ) on the left side  of the clip and there is a five point star follwed by the numerals 36 on the right side ....  I believe that means the clip was manufactured in Italy in 1936.

The Blue steel clip is stamped SMI on the left side and there is a five oint star followed by the number 39 on the right side. I believe that the blue steeclip was made in Italy in 1939. 

The clip in the photo appears to be a blue steel clip and it was manufactured in Italy in 1952......

If that's true then the clip in the photo definitely is NOT the clip that was in the rifle when Day was examining the rifle.

I've checked out a lot of these brass clips online. They all have SMI stamped on one side and a three digit number on the other.
The clip on the evidence table Jim posted doesn't have SMI on it, it has SIM and there are no numbers on the other side. This is not the clip CE575.

I'm trying to find out when the pic Jim posted was taken and if there are any other pics including the clip (FBI or DPD).
At the moment this looks like a clear example of tampering with evidence but it needs to be checked more thoroughly.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #221 on: July 30, 2022, 12:03:00 AM »


Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #222 on: July 30, 2022, 12:27:22 AM »
I've checked out a lot of these brass clips online. They all have SMI stamped on one side and a three digit number on the other.
The clip on the evidence table Jim posted doesn't have SMI on it, it has SIM and there are no numbers on the other side. This is not the clip CE575.

I'm trying to find out when the pic Jim posted was taken and if there are any other pics including the clip (FBI or DPD).
At the moment this looks like a clear example of tampering with evidence but it needs to be checked more thoroughly.

I have many clips dating back to 1923....... but I believe the newest clip I have is a steel clip made in 1939.   I believe they Italians continued to manufacture the clips well into the 1950's and they made them out of steel.... If a clip is stamped "52" i believe that clip would be made of steel, in 1952.

Offline Jim Hawthorn

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #223 on: July 30, 2022, 08:04:25 AM »
Where is this pic from Jim, because the clip on the table is not the same as the clip in evidence for the WC [CE575]?

I found it here:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1967/06/10/the-buffs
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 08:10:20 AM by Jim Hawthorn »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #223 on: July 30, 2022, 08:04:25 AM »


 

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