The Position of the Bolt on the MC


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Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2022, 12:40:26 AM »
This one's for Walt really, but anyone with a decent knowledge of rifles might be able to help me out (as I have literally zero practical knowledge of firearms).

In the picture below the bolt (more specifically, the part of the bolt that is gripped in order to reload) is picked out with a red arrow.

What does the position of this bolt mean (if that makes any sense)?
What would it mean if the MC was picked off the floor with the bolt in this position?


The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2022, 12:40:26 AM »


Online Charles Collins

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2022, 12:51:06 AM »
I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:





And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2022, 01:07:17 AM »
The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

"The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge."

How do you know the bolt handle has been retracted "a centimeter or two" ??    Why couldn't it be in that slot because it was stopped there during the forward motion of the bolt at that point by a cartridge in the firing chamber.....    FYI ...I've placed a cartridge in the firing  chamber of my carcano and that position of the bolt handle in the slot, that you've noted and pointed out, ( thank you)  is precisely where the bolt is seen in the picture.   ( Clearly this indicates that someone attempted to place the live round in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber.)

 I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Well Mr Todd, since you're running your mouth....why don't you list "a few other scenarios"  that would explain the bolt handle being in the position that it is seen in the picture?


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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2022, 01:07:17 AM »


Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2022, 01:44:10 AM »
The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge. This could have happened because someone fired a shot and pushed the bolt forwards to reload for the next one, but decided that one more shot wasn't needed and didn't finish closing the bolt. Or it could be that Day (or some other DPD member) rotated the handle and partially extracted the bolt in order to make the rifle safe to handle before anyone picked it up. Which would be proper procedure. I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 01:46:54 AM by Dan O'meara »

Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2022, 02:43:10 AM »
"The bolt handle (this being the proper term) looks like it's been rotated up and the bolt pulled back a centimeter or two, so that the handle is partially in the slot cut through the top of the receiver bridge."

How do you know the bolt handle has been retracted "a centimeter or two" ??    Why couldn't it be in that slot because it was stopped there during the forward motion of the bolt at that point by a cartridge in the firing chamber.....    FYI ...I've placed a cartridge in the firing  chamber of my carcano and that position of the bolt handle in the slot, that you've noted and pointed out, ( thank you)  is precisely where the bolt is seen in the picture.   ( Clearly this indicates that someone attempted to place the live round in the chamber by simply dropping it into the chamber.)

 I'm sure there are a few other scenarios that would explain the bolt handle's position as well. You don't have to go by Walt's flights of fancy.

Well Mr Todd, since you're running your mouth....why don't you list "a few other scenarios"  that would explain the bolt handle being in the position that it is seen in the picture?
I say the bolt's been pulled back a cm or two because the cocking piece nut appears to extend to the end of the receiver's tail is, if not a bit further.  Just turning the bolt wouldn't bring the CP nut that far to the rear.

I've already brought up two scenarios that would easily explain the position of the bolt, and see no reason to rack my brain for more. "I'm sure there are a few other scenarios" is really just leaving space open for anyone else to chime in with their own ideas. You have certainly thrown in your own two pennies.

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2022, 02:54:07 AM »
I found this animation quite a few years ago. I thought it might be helpful.

Here is an animated gif I created from the original MP4 file:





And here is a link to the webpage where I found it in case there is any trouble with the gif file and to give the original creator credit for this one:


https://imgur.com/gallery/30ws11v/comment/225371056?nc=1

Thank you Charles....It is an excellent cutaway of a carcano being fired ....however it is a bit fast for me....Eventhough I don't need the video to know how a carcano operates ..... Some one who knows how to stop the action could really benefit from the video. If a person could stop the bolt closing just before the handle is pushed down to latch the bolt could see that the cartridge is nearly fully inserted into the chamber.....and if that cartridge was not seated in the face of the bolt the cartridge would prevent the bolt from closing all the way and latching into the ready to fire position.

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2022, 02:54:07 AM »


Offline Mitch Todd

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2022, 02:54:56 AM »
Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?
When I watch the Alyea film's sequence of the rifle's recovery, I see events in the following order:

1.) Day reaches down and picks up the rifle by the sling and lifts it up off the floor.
2.) Day turns and presents the rifle, butt up, to Fritz, who takes the rifle from Day.
3.) Then it cuts to Day holding the rifle while inspecting it. This is the scene from which your still image is taken.

The continuity between Day picking up the rifle and Fritz taking it precludes the events in 3.) from occurring between the time that Day picks up the rifle and the moment that Fritz takes hold of the weapon. So the Fritz could have opened the bolt and ejected the round between 2.) and 3.).

It all starts about 45 seconds into this version of the Alyea film:

« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:02:17 AM by Mitch Todd »

Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2022, 03:28:39 AM »
Just to deal with a couple of points here Mitch.
When the rifle is discovered it appears from multiple testimonies that there are orders not to touch the rifle until Day has taken pictures of it in situ. Day is the first person to actually handle the rifle (so we can discard the notion someone other than Day moved the bolt handle before it was removed from it's hiding place).
Day has this to say about removing the rifle:

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor. (see the video that Charles posted and notice how the shells are flung away from the rifle. )

So Fritz is the first person to touch the bolt handle after it is removed from it's hiding place and this is what the Alyea footage appears to show.
This is the bit I'm trying to understand. Am I correct in assuming the following:
To insert the clip into the rifle the bolt handle is pulled backwards and the clip is inserted from the top.
The bolt grip is then pushed forward to load the top bullet into the chamber[?]
After firing the first bullet the bolt handle is pulled backwards, the next bullet in the clip is forced upwards, the bolt handle is pushed forward forcing this next bullet into the chamber.
So the situation we see in the Alyea footage is that the third bullet has been supposedly fired, the bolt handle has been pulled back, the fourth bullet in the clip has been forced upwards but has not been pushed into the chamber.

In this scenario how does Fritz eject this live round?

Captain Fritz was present. After we got the photographs I asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. I picked the gun up by the wooden stock. I noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so I picked it up, and Captain Fritz opened the bolt as I held the gun. A live round fell to the floor.

Day did not pick up the carcano by the WOODEN STOCK.      And He said a live round "fell on the floor".... If that live round had been seated in the face of the bolt it would have been EXTRACTED and flung away from the rifle....It would not simply have "fell on the floor"
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 03:30:54 AM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: The Position of the Bolt on the MC
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2022, 03:28:39 AM »


 

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