A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket

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Offline Bill Brown

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A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« on: June 11, 2022, 10:32:35 PM »
Sam Guinyard puts the jacket (CE-162) on Oswald's back.

"The #2 man in the lineup I saw at the city hall is the same man I saw running with the pistol in his hand." -- Sam Guinyard (11/22/63 affidavit)

Oswald was the #2 man in the lineup.

Warren Commission testimony:
======
Mr. BALL. Now, the next exhibit here is Commission Exhibit No. 162; have you ever seen this before?
Mr. GUINYARD. That's the jacket.
Mr. BALL. This is a gray jacket?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that's the gray jacket.
Mr. BALL. It has a zipper on it?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You say that's the jacket?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that he had on in Oak Cliff when he passed the lot.
Mr. BALL. That the man with the pistol had on?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

According to housekeeper Earlene Roberts, Oswald left the rooming house on Beckley wearing a jacket, zipping it up as he went out the door:

Warren Commission testimony:
======
Mr. BALL. When he came in the door, what did he do?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in---he didn't look around at me---he didn't say nothing and went on to his room.
Mr. BALL. Did he run?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.

By the time Oswald had reached Jefferson Blvd., he was no longer wearing a jacket:

"About 1:30 pm I saw a man standing in the lobby of the shoe store. This man was wearing a brown sport shirt. He also acted as if he was scared." -- Johnny Brewer (12/6/63 affidavit)

Warren Commission testimony:
======
Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN - Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER - No.

The question remains... If he did not gun down a police officer and therefore attempt to change his appearance, why did Oswald ditch the jacket that he was wearing when he left the rooming house on Beckley by the time he was spotted by Johnny Brewer at the shoe store on Jefferson?

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A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« on: June 11, 2022, 10:32:35 PM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2022, 10:37:43 PM »
Sam Guinyard puts the jacket (CE-162) on Oswald's back.

"The #2 man in the lineup I saw at the city hall is the same man I saw running with the pistol in his hand." -- Sam Guinyard (11/22/63 affidavit)

Oswald was the #2 man in the lineup.

Warren Commission testimony:
======
Mr. BALL. Now, the next exhibit here is Commission Exhibit No. 162; have you ever seen this before?
Mr. GUINYARD. That's the jacket.
Mr. BALL. This is a gray jacket?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that's the gray jacket.
Mr. BALL. It has a zipper on it?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You say that's the jacket?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; that he had on in Oak Cliff when he passed the lot.
Mr. BALL. That the man with the pistol had on?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir.

According to housekeeper Earlene Roberts, Oswald left the rooming house on Beckley wearing a jacket, zipping it up as he went out the door:

Warren Commission testimony:
======
Mr. BALL. When he came in the door, what did he do?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in---he didn't look around at me---he didn't say nothing and went on to his room.
Mr. BALL. Did he run?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.

By the time Oswald had reached Jefferson Blvd., he was no longer wearing a jacket:

"About 1:30 pm I saw a man standing in the lobby of the shoe store. This man was wearing a brown sport shirt. He also acted as if he was scared." -- Johnny Brewer (12/6/63 affidavit)

Warren Commission testimony:
======
Mr. BREWER - And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.
Mr. BELIN - Any jacket?
Mr. BREWER - No.

The question remains... If he did not gun down a police officer and therefore attempt to change his appearance, why did Oswald ditch the jacket that he was wearing when he left the rooming house on Beckley by the time he was spotted by Johnny Brewer at the shoe store on Jefferson?

Sam Guinyard puts the jacket (CE-162) on Oswald's back.

And Earlene Roberts wasn't so sure;


Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in---he didn't look around at me---he didn't say nothing and went on to his room.
Mr. BALL. Did he run?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear that jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I can't say I did---if I did, I don't remember it.
Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves.
Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that shirt before or seen him wear it---the shirt, or do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember---I don't know.
Mr. BALL. You say he put on a separate jacket?
Mrs. ROBERTS. A jacket.
Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162---have you ever seen this jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket?
Mr. BALL. Yes---it has a zipper down the front.
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe it was.


"Kind of a zipper jacket"

"I didn't pay that much attention"

"It seems like the one he put on was darker than that"

 :D

In the meantime, Wesley Buell Frazier's testimony has Oswald wearing a grey jacket to Irving on the evening of 11/21/63, and his only other jacket, blue-grey in color, was later found in the Domino room of the TSBD.

It doesn't take a genius which jacket Oswald was wearing to Irving, as he only had two jackets.

As for Guinyard, the same usual LN claims about sunlight making a jacket look brighter or darker apparently don't apply, but strangely enough they do seem to apply to the officers who found a jacket under a car and called it in as being white.

The only reason why Bill Brown thinks Sam Guinyard is correct is because he is the only witness who actually says what Bill Brown wants to hear.



« Last Edit: June 11, 2022, 10:48:05 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2022, 10:37:43 PM »

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2022, 12:51:48 AM »
Sam Guinyard puts the jacket (CE-162) on Oswald's back.

And Earlene Roberts wasn't so sure;


Mrs. ROBERTS. He just walked in---he didn't look around at me---he didn't say nothing and went on to his room.
Mr. BALL. Did he run?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast---he was all but running.
Mr. BALL. Then, what happened after that?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but I couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on---it was kind of a zipper jacket.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen him wear that jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I can't say I did---if I did, I don't remember it.
Mr. BALL. When he came in he was in a shirt?
Mrs. ROBERTS. He was in his shirt sleeves.
Mr. BALL. What color was his shirt? Do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember. I didn't pay that much attention for I was interested in the television trying to get it fixed.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen that shirt before or seen him wear it---the shirt, or do you know?
Mrs. ROBERTS. I don't remember---I don't know.
Mr. BALL. You say he put on a separate jacket?
Mrs. ROBERTS. A jacket.
Mr. BALL. I'll show you this jacket which is Commission Exhibit 162---have you ever seen this jacket before?
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe I have, but I don't remember it. It seems like the one he put on was darker than that. Now, I won't be sure, because I really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket?
Mr. BALL. Yes---it has a zipper down the front.
Mrs. ROBERTS. Well, maybe it was.


"Kind of a zipper jacket"

"I didn't pay that much attention"

"It seems like the one he put on was darker than that"

 :D

In the meantime, Wesley Buell Frazier's testimony has Oswald wearing a grey jacket to Irving on the evening of 11/21/63, and his only other jacket, blue-grey in color, was later found in the Domino room of the TSBD.

It doesn't take a genius which jacket Oswald was wearing to Irving, as he only had two jackets.

As for Guinyard, the same usual LN claims about sunlight making a jacket look brighter or darker apparently don't apply, but strangely enough they do seem to apply to the officers who found a jacket under a car and called it in as being white.

The only reason why Bill Brown thinks Sam Guinyard is correct is because he is the only witness who actually says what Bill Brown wants to hear.


Quote
And Earlene Roberts wasn't so sure;

Your point here is moot.

Earlene Roberts has Oswald leaving in a jacket, even if the jacket was bright orange or any other color you choose.


Quote
The only reason why Bill Brown thinks Sam Guinyard is correct is because he is the only witness who actually says what Bill Brown wants to hear.

No.

Every witness to the killing and/or the suspect's path has the suspect in a jacket; not just Guinyard.

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2022, 12:51:48 AM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2022, 01:35:00 AM »
Earlene didn't pay that much attention
Neither did Buell, btw
Not sure I would conjure up Buell when attacking Earlene's color perception

LOL

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2022, 01:35:00 AM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2022, 01:47:00 AM »

Your point here is moot.

Earlene Roberts has Oswald leaving in a jacket, even if the jacket was bright orange or any other color you choose.


No. She isn't sure and has Oswald leaving in "kind of a jacket"

Quote

No.


Yes

Quote

Every witness to the killing and/or the suspect's path has the suspect in a jacket; not just Guinyard.

So, if Oswald's gray jacket was in fact in Irving, the suspect wasn't Oswald.

All you've got to show that Oswald did in fact leave the rooming house wearing a jacket is the extremely shaky testimony of Earlene Roberts, a woman with bad eye sight who wasn't paying much attention and who focused on trying to get the TV to work. And let's not forget what her employer said about her..... known for making up stuff. And why did Earlene leave town that very day?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 02:49:17 AM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2022, 01:47:00 AM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2022, 01:50:26 AM »
Earlene didn't pay that much attention
Neither did Buell, btw
Not sure I would conjure up Buell when attacking Earlene's color perception

LOL

Great stuff... so you've got two witnesses who were not paying much attention and who say different things.

Pray tell, why would you take Earlene's word over Buell's?

Or shall we call it inconclusive? Oh wait, you can't have that, can you now, because it means you have nothing to show that Oswald left the rooming house wearing a jacket.

It looks like you've just shot yourself in the foot, yet again.....

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2022, 01:50:26 AM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2022, 02:29:36 AM »
This lame loaded question again?  You first have to demonstrate that Oswald "ditched a jacket" before asking why he did so.  It's like me asking you why you beat your wife.

And even if you could demonstrate that he ditched a jacket (you can't), what is an unanswerable hypothetical question supposed to prove?

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2022, 02:29:36 AM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2022, 02:32:13 AM »
Or shall we call it inconclusive? Oh wait, you can't have that, can you now, because it means you have nothing to show that Oswald left the rooming house wearing a jacket.

It looks like you've just shot yourself in the foot, yet again.....

"inconclusivity" is like Kryptonite to the WC-faithful.

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2022, 02:32:13 AM »

Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2022, 03:19:58 AM »
Great stuff... so you've got two witnesses who were not paying much attention and who say different things.

Pray tell, why would you take Earlene's word over Buell's?

Or shall we call it inconclusive? Oh wait, you can't have that, can you now, because it means you have nothing to show that Oswald left the rooming house wearing a jacket.

It looks like you've just shot yourself in the foot, yet again.....

'Great stuff... so you've got two witnesses who were not paying much attention and who say different things'
_ I don't 'got' either them. Get a grip.

'Pray tell, why would you take Earlene's word over Buell's?'
_Where did you get that little nugget?

'Or shall we call it inconclusive? Oh wait, you can't have that, can you now, because it means you have nothing to show that Oswald left the rooming house wearing a jacket'
_You just called Earlene a liar.

'It looks like you've just shot yourself in the foot, yet again'
_ It looks like you're blind in one eye and can't see out of the other
   
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 03:20:52 AM by Bill Chapman »

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2022, 03:19:58 AM »

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: A Lot Of Racket About One Ditched Jacket
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2022, 03:26:07 AM »
'Great stuff... so you've got two witnesses who were not paying much attention and who say different things'
_ I don't 'got' either them. Get a grip.

'Pray tell, why would you take Earlene's word over Buell's?'
_Where did you get that little nugget?

'Or shall we call it inconclusive? Oh wait, you can't have that, can you now, because it means you have nothing to show that Oswald left the rooming house wearing a jacket'
_You just called Earlene a liar.

'It looks like you've just shot yourself in the foot, yet again'
_ It looks like you're blind in one eye and can't see out of the other
 

Am I to make sense out of these incoherent ramblings?

 

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