The Assassination and Mrs. Paine

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Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #110 on: July 28, 2022, 08:22:28 PM »
In the conspiracy chain of events, Ruth also has to convince Oswald's wife to move in with her, the Fraziers to live down the street, Buell to get a job at the TSBD, Oswald to apply for a job, Truly to hire him, Oswald to stay on the job until 11.22...etc.

You forget that she also had to ensure that the sun came up, that the power grid didn't fail and the airport remained open.

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #110 on: July 28, 2022, 08:22:28 PM »

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2022, 08:28:06 PM »
The conspiracy believers, those that argue the Paines were directly involved..
That one sure started off as a catch all. The key word being.. directly.
I suggest that Ruth Paine willingly made herself quite useful.
From Paine's testimony---
Quote
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes. Did she tell you of any detail of what the argument was about--what the situation was?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, she said that she felt he should not be using an alias. It wasn't contained in anything that was said, but I got the feeling that she was upset with his doing this or thinking that he should or could do it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you whether or not Oswald had told her why he was using the alias?
Mrs. PAINE - She did not tell me anything about why.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any ideas as to why he might be doing it?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, I did suppose the possibility--it is possible that he was worried about it being found out at the School Book Depository that he had a Russian wife. He did ask me to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Frazier not to ask questions, not to discuss the fact that he had a Russian wife with the coworkers at the School Book Depository. I think he felt that, if this was known, it would also become known that he went to Russia and the circumstances of that, and he felt, and this was a sheer guess on my part, and I judge that he felt this would make his job tenure unsure.
Mr. LIEBELER - In other words, you do say, however, that Oswald did ask you to ask Mrs. Randle to ask Wesley Frazier not to talk about Oswald's Russian wife at the School Book Depository; is that correct?
Mrs. PAINE - That's right; so that my impression is supported to that extent.
              [What does that mean?]
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ask Mrs. Randle to ask Mr. Frazier to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether or not she did?
Mrs. PAINE - She said she had already discussed it and she judged that they would not be talking about it.
                      [Why would Randle have "already" discussed Oswald's wife?]
Mr. LIEBELER - You. You don't know whether Mrs. Randle ever specifically mentioned it to Frazier after you talked to her?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I don't know that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember when Oswald asked you to do that?
Mrs. PAINE - It was very shortly after he got the job--it was in the first week, I would say.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you that she was angry with Oswald for using this alias?
Mrs. PAINE - It was clear that she was angry--on the face of it.
That whole concept is stupid. It was never concretely established that Oswald was deliberately living under an alias. The somewhat clouded housekeeper may have written down what she thought he said when she asked his name. Further..why would a lowly order filler at a book warehouse be scrutinized for having a foreign wife?
If he wanted to use an alias..why didn't he use Alek Hidell?
And even if he wanted to use an alias could it not be that Oswald wanted to live incognito from the prying eyes of the FBI or any other entity that might be tracking him? So why would Marina be upset with that?
From the Parnell article----
Quote
The evidence shows that while in Mexico, Oswald did indeed travel by bus and phone the Soviet embassy about a visa. He may or may not have bought the bracelet in Mexico and probably didn't attend the Jai-Alai game since he likely didn't have proper attire. But at the very least, some of this evidence is suggestive of a trip south of the border...But while Oswald's presence or absence in Mexico City is crucial to most conspiracy theories it is irrelevant when contemplating his guilt in the murders of JFK and Tippit.
 
Actually..the items [were they really ever entered as evidence?] in question APPEARS to show that he went to Mexico [ignoring that two people saw him in Dallas at that same time]

"But while Oswald's presence or absence in Mexico City is crucial to most conspiracy theories it is irrelevant when contemplating his guilt in the murders of JFK and Tippit."
If Oswald was not in Mexico it certainly demonstrates that someone made it appear that he was and that sinister workings were afoot suggesting a conspiracy in the works.

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #111 on: July 28, 2022, 08:28:06 PM »

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2022, 12:56:47 AM »

If Oswald was not in Mexico it certainly demonstrates that someone made it appear that he was and that sinister workings were afoot suggesting a conspiracy in the works.

But there is powerful evidence that he was (Bugliosi has 14 points). And most of it does not come from Ruth.

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #112 on: July 29, 2022, 12:56:47 AM »

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2022, 02:07:02 AM »
But there is powerful evidence that he was (Bugliosi has 14 points). And most of it does not come from Ruth.
Mexico was explored at length here----
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,1599.msg41639.html#msg41639

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #113 on: July 29, 2022, 02:07:02 AM »

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2022, 03:07:20 PM »

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #114 on: August 04, 2022, 03:07:20 PM »

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2022, 03:28:26 PM »
A critique of Edward Curtin's review:

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2022/08/the-assassination-and-mrs-paine-behind.html

"Curtin believes that "all" of the mainstream media—CBS, ABC, The Washington Post, etc.—"speak for the Central Intelligence Agency."

I've had this exchange with conspiracists numerous times over the years with them squawking in unison "Operation Mockingbird, Operation Mockingbird, Operation Mockingbird..." and claiming that "the CIA" and their assets - people like Priscilla Johnson and Max Holland - and the mainstream media have covered up what really happened. Yes, multiple generations of reporters and editors and others for these news organizations, for the Post, the NY Times, for the networks, for some inexplicable reason have covered up for the CIA's murder of JFK. The bizarre Jim DiEugenio claims Walter Cronkite is/was among these journalistic conspirators. Yes, Cronkite.

This is, of course, the same set of news organizations that exposed the CIA's abuses, the "Family Jewels." And the FBI's abuses. Watergate, the lies of Vietnam and assorted other abuses all revealed by this same media that "speaks" for the CIA. If they "speak for the CIA" then why did the CIA allow them to reveal these abuses? Does the CIA control them or not?

As to this point: "[Good's] search for JFK knowledge gives him the perfect excuse for a sequel (or a series of them) just as it has provided Morley with a reason to pen five books related to the subject. Because conspiracies, which are really just historical mysteries, sell."

I was thinking of Morley when I came across this passage by Thomas Mallon in "Mrs. Paine's Garage."

"Most posters [on internet sites] do not want the case 'solved.' Their goal is to sustain the imagined mystery's eternal life....They light, not a prairie fire [that clears everything away] but a sort of burning circus hoop through which the same gaudy villains and dupes are coaxed to jump again and again."

"Sustain the imagined mystery's eternal life..." That is the perfect description of what Morley is doing. And others.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2022, 04:06:53 PM by Steve M. Galbraith »

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #115 on: August 04, 2022, 03:28:26 PM »

Offline W. Tracy Parnell

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2022, 03:47:33 PM »
Excellent post Steve.

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #116 on: August 04, 2022, 03:47:33 PM »

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2022, 04:23:58 PM »
Why would the news media cover up all of these years - we're not talking about their coverage of the WC; we're talking about generations of reporters and editors over multiple decades - for the CIA's murder of JFK? For what purpose? Walter Cronkite gained what by doing so? The NY Times "spoke" for the CIA for what reason?

The same media that exposed the abuses of the agency - the "Family Jewel's" revelations - has covered up for their treasonous murder of JFK? Again, for what benefit? If they speak for the CIA then why did they talk about those crimes, crimes that the conspiracists point to when they say the CIA did this crime?

It's another example in a long list of the contradictions in the conspiracy argument. This whole conspiracy idea that "the government" killed JFK is illogical and at odds with itself.

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #117 on: August 04, 2022, 04:23:58 PM »

Online Richard Smith

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2022, 04:38:41 PM »
Why would the news media cover up all of these years - we're not talking about their coverage of the WC; we're talking about generations of reporters and editors over multiple decades - for the CIA's murder of JFK? For what purpose? Walter Cronkite gained what by doing so? The NY Times "spoke" for the CIA for what reason?

The same media that exposed the abuses of the agency - the "Family Jewel's" revelations - has covered up for their treasonous murder of JFK? Again, for what benefit? If they speak for the CIA then why did they talk about those crimes, crimes that the conspiracists point to when they say the CIA did this crime?

It's another example in a long list of the contradictions in the conspiracy argument. This whole conspiracy idea that "the government" killed JFK is illogical and at odds with itself.

JFK is a leftist icon.  The leftist media would be overjoyed to have uncovered some evidence of a right-wing conspiracy to kill him.   The CTers need a cover up to explain why they can't ever prove a conspiracy.  Someone is always precluding them from doing so.  Either the government or someone else.  The UFO believers have the same problem.  The cover up is the only way to explain why they have no actual evidence to support their conclusion.

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #118 on: August 04, 2022, 04:38:41 PM »

Online Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: The Assassination and Mrs. Paine
« Reply #119 on: August 04, 2022, 05:23:04 PM »
JFK is a leftist icon.  The leftist media would be overjoyed to have uncovered some evidence of a right-wing conspiracy to kill him.   The CTers need a cover up to explain why they can't ever prove a conspiracy.  Someone is always precluding them from doing so.  Either the government or someone else.  The UFO believers have the same problem.  The cover up is the only way to explain why they have no actual evidence to support their conclusion.
The idea that liberal outlets like the NY Times and Washington Post would coverup for the murder of the sainted JFK is absurd. And coverup for Hoover? And for LBJ? Liberals loathe those two men. And the CIA? And multiple generations of reporters and editors? Who thinks like this?

I don't know which is more illogical: that they would cover up for the murder of JFK or that JFK had to be murdered. He was a remarkably charistmatic president but he was, politically, ordinary. He was moderate on domestic issues and a believer in the Cold War policies of his predecessors. Yes, he wanted to avoid a direct US/USSR conflict but he recognized that the Soviet Union and communism were existential threats to the West. Finding a way to prevent a nuclear war was one thing; but surrendering to them - which is what Oliver Stone and his likes believe - was another.

This is from his speech he was to give in Dallas that day (from his closing remarks):

"We in this country, in this generation, are – by destiny rather than choice – the watchmen on the walls of world freedom. We ask, therefore, that we may be worthy of our power and responsibility, that we may exercise our strength with wisdom and restraint, and that we may achieve in our time and for all time the ancient vision of "peace on earth, good will toward men." That must always be our goal, and the righteousness of our cause must always underlie our strength. For as was written long ago: "except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.""

That's not just amazing rhetoric; he believed in those ideas.

 

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