The First Shot

[Dan O'meara]

No. That is not what I was unconvinced about. Certainly a reaction CAN occur 110 ms. after a stimulus. I have never said otherwise. The issue is whether the reaction seen in z225 was due to a bullet striking him at z223. To establish that it was, one has to show: 1) that JFK was not reacting before z225 and that, therefore z225 is the beginning of any reaction; and 2) that the kind of reaction he is exhibiting had to have occurred within 110 ms from the bullet impact. You have not demonstrated either.

"1) that JFK was not reacting before z225"

Two of the reactions I've highlighted clearly demonstrate that the reactions @ z225 were the first reactions.
The argument concerning JFK's left arm/hand shows JFK in exactly that position for the duration of the Z-film from the first appearance of the presidential limo (z133) until the first reaction at z225.
His left arm/hand are in exactly the same position as JFK travels down Elm St., as he passes behind the Stemmons sign and, most importantly, as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
The Z-film shows this continuity of the left arm/hand position.
Suddenly, at z225, his left arm/hand begins to rocket up from his side at a tremendous speed. Up until this point it has been in a relaxed state, down by his side.
JFK's bunched fists flying up to his throat and his elbows extending high in the air, can hardly be disputed as a reaction to being shot through the throat. The very first part of this movement occurs at z225. The incredible speed at which this physical action happens is indicative of a reflex reaction, which would be the first reaction to such trauma.
The Z-film is showing us JFK's first reaction to being shot.

The same arguments apply for the extremely rapid movements of JBC's right arm/hand. He is in exactly the same position as he moves behind the Stemmons sign as he is when he emerges from behind - sat upright, calm and composed, looking towards the people lining Elm St to his right.
His Stetson hat is resting on his lap for the duration of this part of the Z-film. Suddenly it rockets up in front of his face, within one third of a second. It is an incredibly quick physical movement, prior to which his hand has been at rest. We see this in the Z-film before the sign and after it. The Z-film shows us this continuity of right arm/hand position. Which suddenly explodes into action at exactly the same time JFK suddenly explodes into action.

In both cases we are seeing extreme, reflex reactions (demonstrated by the incredible speed of the physical movements from a state of rest).
As reflex reactions they are the first reactions.
In both cases we are seeing the 'resting positions' before and after the Stemmons sign.
There can be little doubt the Z-film shows us the first reactions are at z225.
What happens behind the sign is of no relevance as we see the continuity of 'resting positions' in the Z-film.


"2) that the kind of reaction he is exhibiting had to have occurred within 110 ms from the bullet impact".

This point seems phrased in a strange way (or maybe I'm just a bit tired).
I am not saying reacting to being shot 110 ms after impact is the only option.
I'm saying that a reaction this quickly after being shot is a perfectly feasible, scientifically proven fact.
Reacting this quickly after being shot is not unusual, I would argue it is to be expected.
But I'm certainly not arguing that this is the only type of reaction there is.

I don't know if that's really dealt with that point.

[Andrew Mason]

"1) that JFK was not reacting before z225"

Two of the reactions I've highlighted clearly demonstrate that the reactions @ z225 were the first reactions.
The argument concerning JFK's left arm/hand shows JFK in exactly that position for the duration of the Z-film from the first appearance of the presidential limo (z133) until the first reaction at z225.
His left arm/hand are in exactly the same position as JFK travels down Elm St., as he passes behind the Stemmons sign and, most importantly, as he emerges from behind the Stemmons sign.
The Z-film shows this continuity of the left arm/hand position.

The resolution of the zfilm is not good enough to say that it is in "exactly the same position".  It is in roughly the same location but the hand posture may be different.  But so what?  It is not as if the left hand is the only part of his body that will react. We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression.  His right hand appears to be forming a fist at z224 and forms a fist by z225.  Your analysis of the left hand does not exclude the very real, if not likely, possibility that z225 is not the beginning of his contorted facial reaction to being shot in the neck.

Suddenly, at z225, his left arm/hand begins to rocket up from his side at a tremendous speed. Up until this point it has been in a relaxed state, down by his side.
JFK's bunched fists flying up to his throat and his elbows extending high in the air, can hardly be disputed as a reaction to being shot through the throat. The very first part of this movement occurs at z225. The incredible speed at which this physical action happens is indicative of a reflex reaction, which would be the first reaction to such trauma.
The Z-film is showing us JFK's first reaction to being shot.

Ok.  So it is your opinion that this reaction of his left hand is a reflex reaction to being shot.  My opinion is that it is not.  The difference is that my opinion is based on evidence (that the shot occurred over a second before z223).

The same arguments apply for the extremely rapid movements of JBC's right arm/hand. He is in exactly the same position as he moves behind the Stemmons sign as he is when he emerges from behind - sat upright, calm and composed, looking towards the people lining Elm St to his right.
His Stetson hat is resting on his lap for the duration of this part of the Z-film. Suddenly it rockets up in front of his face, within one third of a second. It is an incredibly quick physical movement, prior to which his hand has been at rest. We see this in the Z-film before the sign and after it. The Z-film shows us this continuity of right arm/hand position. Which suddenly explodes into action at exactly the same time JFK suddenly explodes into action.

In both cases we are seeing extreme, reflex reactions (demonstrated by the incredible speed of the physical movements from a state of rest).
As reflex reactions they are the first reactions.
In both cases we are seeing the 'resting positions' before and after the Stemmons sign.
There can be little doubt the Z-film shows us the first reactions are at z225.
What happens behind the sign is of no relevance as we see the continuity of 'resting positions' in the Z-film.

What if his face went blank at z202 and he then began the contorted expression first seen in z225 when he emerges from behind the sign?   How can you possibly say that this did not occur?  It was just a coincidence that his face contortion seen on the first frame that we see after he emerges also began in that frame? It is not just a hypothesis he may have reacted earlier. There is evidence that the shot was over a second earlier.

"2) that the kind of reaction he is exhibiting had to have occurred within 110 ms from the bullet impact".

This point seems phrased in a strange way (or maybe I'm just a bit tired).
I am not saying reacting to being shot 110 ms after impact is the only option.
I'm saying that a reaction this quickly after being shot is a perfectly feasible, scientifically proven fact.
Reacting this quickly after being shot is not unusual, I would argue it is to be expected.
But I'm certainly not arguing that this is the only type of reaction there is.

I don't know if that's really dealt with that point.

Ok.  We have made progress.  On this point at least you have not argued the "Thorburn's position" that SBT proponents usually invoke to "prove" that the shot occurred within 3 frames before z226. There is no evidence here of Kennedy having assumed Thorburn's position, which is an involuntary position assumed by quadriplegics due to transverse lesions of the spinal cord at the C6 level.  No nerves were severed in JFK's neck and C6 is well below the bullet path. 

[Dan O'meara]

The resolution of the zfilm is not good enough to say that it is in "exactly the same position".  It is in roughly the same location but the hand posture may be different.  But so what?  It is not as if the left hand is the only part of his body that will react. We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression.  His right hand appears to be forming a fist at z224 and forms a fist by z225.  Your analysis of the left hand does not exclude the very real, if not likely, possibility that z225 is not the beginning of his contorted facial reaction to being shot in the neck.

The resolution isn't good enough to say it's in exactly the same position but it is good enough to read his facial expression?
You've descended into farce.
JFK's left arm is clearly down by his side, it is perfectly clear.
His facial expression? Are you joking?

Ok.  So it is your opinion that this reaction of his left hand is a reflex reaction to being shot.  My opinion is that it is not.  The difference is that my opinion is based on evidence (that the shot occurred over a second before z223).

My opinion is based on the recorded and measurable speed of his physical movements.
What is your evidence? Phil Willis? 

What if his face went blank at z202 and he then began the contorted expression first seen in z225 when he emerges from behind the sign?   How can you possibly say that this did not occur?

The usual  straw man

There is no evidence here of Kennedy having assumed Thorburn's position, which is an involuntary position assumed by quadriplegics due to transverse lesions of the spinal cord at the C6 level.

Wow. Two  straw man arguments in the same post.
We really have made progress

No nerves were severed in JFK's neck and C6 is well below the bullet path.

Cite evidence for this please as it is a point worth discussing (at last)

[Jerry Organ]

The usual  straw man

Wow. Two  straw man arguments in the same post.
We really have made progress

Yep. You noticed that, too. And the Forum can see it, as well. That's the kind of defense attorney frivolous argument that began straining the court system in the 1970s. Not interested in the truth, but instead getting a guilty client off or Avenatti-style blackmail against an innocent or unknowing company or government agency. Now occasionally it's legitimate and noteworthy and in the bounds of reason. In Mason's case, his "client" is his failed Theory that's landed in the dustbin.

We now have the defense attorney's fanatic rhetoric spreading to the Internet and the flourishing of conspiracy theories ("skeptics" they call themselves now LOL) with "you can't prove it; you have no video or DNA" and grassroots/gut feeling eclipsing science and authority. No vaccinations or mask-wearing; they heard a lawyer say they have rights.

What if his face went blank at z202 and he then began the contorted expression first seen in z225 when he emerges from behind the sign?   How can you possibly say that this did not occur?  It was just a coincidence that his face contortion seen on the first frame that we see after he emerges also began in that frame? It is not just a hypothesis he may have reacted earlier. There is evidence that the shot was over a second earlier.

I almost chuckle (at the claim, not the President suffering) when I hear talk of Kennedy's "contorted expression" in Z225. I once asked a critic to supply a graphic showing what was contorted. See "Other Interpretation" below. Apparently they think Kennedy is yodeling as he emerges from behind the sign.



Imagining them taking this stuff to a governmental panel with experts. None of it would be taken serious after evaluation. The alteration claims. Certainly not a wounding shot in the Z270s (Mason) and Z280s (Harris).

[Andrew Mason]

The resolution isn't good enough to say it's in exactly the same position but it is good enough to read his facial expression?
You've descended into farce.
JFK's left arm is clearly down by his side, it is perfectly clear.

It seems to me that there is a difference in the posture of his left hand in z224 compared to z193 which is the clearest frame prior to him disappearing behind the Stemmons sign.  But I was suggesting that it is not entirely clear because of the poor resolution. I was trying to be generous:


In z193 I see his left hand with the fingers in a somewhat relaxed position but still curled.  In z224 the fingers of the left hand appears to be more clenched together.  But, as I said, the resolution may not be good enough to really be sure.

His facial expression? Are you joking?

You don't see a difference? (comparing z167 to z225):

 

My opinion is based on the recorded and measurable speed of his physical movements.
What is your evidence? Phil Willis?

I think I have provided it.  Also, look at the photos. All I am saying is that the reaction seen in z225 may well have begun within a few frames after being hit just before z200, which is when the evidence indicates the first shot occurred.

The usual  straw man

I said at least you DIDN'T argue the Thorburn position. It would be a straw man if I said you had and then attacked the argument as if you were making it.

Cite evidence for this please as it is a point worth discussing (at last)

Sorry. I should have said that the bullet path was below the C6 vertebra.  The bullet entered the upper back below the cervical (neck) part of the spine.  The autopsy report (Warren Report, Appendix 9, p. 6):

• "The other missile entered the right superior
  posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular
  and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right, side of the neck.
  This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical
  portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles
  of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the
  anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no
  bony structures in its path through the body."

Dr. Lattimer published a paper in 1977 suggesting that the spine at the C6 vertebra suffered an injury from the bullet passing below.  But the Thorburn position requires severance of the spinal cord at C6 and there is no evidence that this occurred.  Lattimer was inferring injury to the spine at C6 from what he thought was the Thorburn position, so the argument gets rather circular. 

The point of mentioning the Thorburn position is that this is the kind of evidence one would need in order to begin to prove that the actions of JFK are tied to the passage of the bullet through the neck.  If the spine at C6 was severed and it was established that a person with such an injury necessarily has the kind of neuromuscular response within 165 ms. of the injury, then this would be evidence that he was struck at z223 or thereabouts. 

As it is, it is just speculation because there is no evidence that the spinal cord was damaged at all, let alone severed at C6.  There is also no documented case establishing that someone with a C6 injury assumes the "Thorburn position" within a few hundred milliseconds of the injury.  The Thorburn position comes from a 19th century medical case of patient L.F. that was written up by a Dr. William Thorburn.  The patient L.F. fell off a ladder and lay on the floor for several hours before anyone saw him.  Four days elapsed before he was admitted to the infirmary where a photograph was taken from which a drawing was made showing the elbows out and the hands and forearms pointing upward as if he was flexing his biceps. Brain Vol. 9, p. 511.

[Dan O'meara]

It seems to me that there is a difference in the posture of his left hand in z224 compared to z193 which is the clearest frame prior to him disappearing behind the Stemmons sign.  But I was suggesting that it is not entirely clear because of the poor resolution. I was trying to be generous:


In z193 I see his left hand with the fingers in a somewhat relaxed position but still curled.  In z224 the fingers of the left hand appears to be more clenched together.  But, as I said, the resolution may not be good enough to really be sure.

The difference in left hand position is really small and left arm is down by his side. What exactly is your point?

You don't see a difference? (comparing z167 to z225):

The difference is clear.
The second image is badly distorted, blurred, grainy and marked.
You really feel confident you can read the expression correctly?

I said at least you DIDN'T argue the Thorburn position. It would be a straw man if I said you had and then attacked the argument as if you were making it.

 
It's great you so readily admit one of your arguments was a  straw man.

Sorry. I should have said that the bullet path was below the C6 vertebra.  The bullet entered the upper back below the cervical (neck) part of the spine.  The autopsy report (Warren Report, Appendix 9, p. 6):

• "The other missile entered the right superior
  posterior thorax above the scapula and traversed the soft tissues of the supra-scapular
  and the supra-clavicular portions of the base of the right, side of the neck.
  This missile produced contusions of the right apical parietal pleura and of the apical
  portion of the right upper lobe of the lung. The missile contused the strap muscles
  of the right side of the neck, damaged the trachea and made its exit through the
  anterior surface of the neck. As far as can be ascertained this missile struck no
  bony structures in its path through the body."

Dr. Lattimer published a paper in 1977 suggesting that the spine at the C6 vertebra suffered an injury from the bullet passing below.  But the Thorburn position requires severance of the spinal cord at C6 and there is no evidence that this occurred.  Lattimer was inferring injury to the spine at C6 from what he thought was the Thorburn position, so the argument gets rather circular. 

The point of mentioning the Thorburn position is that this is the kind of evidence one would need in order to begin to prove that the actions of JFK are tied to the passage of the bullet through the neck.  If the spine at C6 was severed and it was established that a person with such an injury necessarily has the kind of neuromuscular response within 165 ms. of the injury, then this would be evidence that he was struck at z223 or thereabouts. 

As it is, it is just speculation because there is no evidence that the spinal cord was damaged at all, let alone severed at C6.  There is also no documented case establishing that someone with a C6 injury assumes the "Thorburn position" within a few hundred milliseconds of the injury.  The Thorburn position comes from a 19th century medical case of patient L.F. that was written up by a Dr. William Thorburn.  The patient L.F. fell off a ladder and lay on the floor for several hours before anyone saw him.  Four days elapsed before he was admitted to the infirmary where a photograph was taken from which a drawing was made showing the elbows out and the hands and forearms pointing upward as if he was flexing his biceps. Brain Vol. 9, p. 511.

Let's just put the Thorburn thing to one side.



It's clear the bullet that entered JFK's back was close to the spine and high up in the back.
As I understand it no bone was hit (at least not significantly)
If this is the case the chance the bullet missed one of the nerves of the brachial plexus is almost zero.

[Andrew Mason]

The difference in left hand position is really small and left arm is down by his side. What exactly is your point?

?? YOU made the assertion that it was "in exactly the same position" in z224 as before the shot. It wasn't exact and the difference, though small, may be material because it could already be showing reaction.  You are the one saying the left arm is showing no reaction in z224.

The difference is clear.
The second image is badly distorted, blurred, grainy and marked.
You really feel confident you can read the expression correctly?

I can't say he is not already reacting.  That's the issue  Apparently you can.

It's great you so readily admit one of your arguments was a  straw man.

Either you misread what I said or you have a different understanding of what a straw man argument is.

Let's just put the Thorburn thing to one side.



It's clear the bullet that entered JFK's back was close to the spine and high up in the back.
As I understand it no bone was hit (at least not significantly)
If this is the case the chance the bullet missed one of the nerves of the brachial plexus is almost zero.

High up in the back is not the cervical spine. The path appears to be to the right of the thoracic spine below the brachial plexus.

[Dan O'meara]

I can't say he is not already reacting.  That's the issue  Apparently you can.

At no point have I ever tried to argue anything from JFK's facial expressions.
The resolution of the Z-film is clearly not good enough.
Never have I even hinted at using this aspect of the Z-film to determine reactions.
On the contrary - it is you who keeps dragging in JFK's facial expressions as if can you discern something from them. Does this quote ring a bell:

"We cannot see JFK's face until z225 and in that frame it is already contorted with an unnatural expression."

I have pointed out the resolution is not good enough to reach any conclusions using facial reactions but apparently you can reach conclusions from it.
Really?

High up in the back is not the cervical spine. The path appears to be to the right of the thoracic spine below the brachial plexus.

Can you explain this quote from one of your previous posts:

"No nerves were severed in JFK's neck and C6 is well below the bullet path. "

In one moment you're saying the bullet enters JFK's back above the C6 vertebra then your saying the bullet path is below C6 (below the brachial plexus.
It is clear you are willing to say whatever it takes to "win a point".
Constantly introducing  straw man arguments, twisting and misrepresenting what is being said.
Anyone can look over the last few pages and see the contribution I am making and your own contribution.
Your model has failed - passing under the oak tree at the time of your proposed first shot, the impossible ballistics of your proposed second shot and now this - a delay of over a second and a half between being shot and the multiple extreme, rapid and co-ordinated reactions of both JFK and JBC. The speed of these physical reactions is startling, measured in milliseconds. To suggest they come after one and a half seconds is preposterous. One and a half seconds may not seem a long time but it is an eternity when dealing with such rapid reactions.
There is no sane proposal you can make that accounts for this time gap.
Weak attempts at muddying the water - maybe there was some kind of subtle reaction we can't see before z225 - cannot explain the sudden, co-ordinated rapidity of these physical reactions.

Time to move on I think. Let the record speak for itself.