Then went outside to watch P. parade ( Parts 1 & 2 )

[Charles Collins]

   Here is my latest simulation of the Book Depository doorway, featuring Mr. Billy Lovelady’s changes of location and posture from the beginning of Wiegman’s film (W1) to four to five seconds (IIRC) later for his second sweep of the doorway (W2). Ike Altgens took his famous image #6 showing Mr. Lovelady in a somewhat twisted configuration.. My 3D simulation is taken from Wiegmans’s camera as it moves in the moving motorcade. A comparison with the Altgens position is also modeled, capturing the transit of Lovelady from the landing to one step below. Note, without the bending and twisting he could not be standing erect in the final Wiegman scene (W2), as he would be too tall (relative to the hat of Mrs. Ruth Dean portrayed in black here. And too short to be on the second step below). Also note that I did not model the actual articulations necessary to drop a step but used a simple line-of-site from the landing to second step locations. Lovelady’s white undershirt is not something I can model with my software. I’m using a ‘checker’ pattern of large red and white tiles. The chest tiles meet at the vertical center of the models torso.

Well done as usual. Thanks!

[Alan Ford]

   Here is my latest simulation of the Book Depository doorway, featuring Mr. Billy Lovelady’s changes of location and posture from the beginning of Wiegman’s film (W1) to four to five seconds (IIRC) later for his second sweep of the doorway (W2). Ike Altgens took his famous image #6 showing Mr. Lovelady in a somewhat twisted configuration.. My 3D simulation is taken from Wiegmans’s camera as it moves in the moving motorcade. A comparison with the Altgens position is also modeled, capturing the transit of Lovelady from the landing to one step below. Note, without the bending and twisting he could not be standing erect in the final Wiegman scene (W2), as he would be too tall (relative to the hat of Mrs. Ruth Dean portrayed in black here. And too short to be on the second step below). Also note that I did not model the actual articulations necessary to drop a step but used a simple line-of-site from the landing to second step locations. Lovelady’s white undershirt is not something I can model with my software. I’m using a ‘checker’ pattern of large red and white tiles. The chest tiles meet at the vertical center of the models torso.

I have been looking forward to this for a long time, Mr. Hackerott, so thank you very much for doing it! I am particularly appreciative of your having taken the trouble to go some way (within the limits of the software) towards marking the white tshirt.

Could I trouble you to give us a simple scaled two-image GIF going back and forth between
a) your final frame here
b) the 'target' Wiegman frame?

This would be most helpful, as there seems to be a marked lack of correspondence in several key points



 

[Alan Ford]

Is Mr. Lovelady still in transit? It doesn't look at all like it------------------the height/location of his head relative to other stationary markers does not change from frame to frame

[Alan Ford]

The great merit of this 3D simulation is that it does not pretend that Mr. Lovelady can possibly be catching natural shadow. As we know, that way madness lies!

However, its alternative approach----------trying to disappear most of the right half of Mr. Lovelady's upper body by going all in on (i) the Wiegman angle and (ii) a most improbably awkward posture for Mr. Lovelady in the lower frames-----------just ends up showing the extremes one has to go to to reverse-engineer a result even remotely resembling what Wiegman actually shows.

This imagined movement is (in every sense) quite a reach..................



And even then, even keeping the contortion of Mr. Lovelady's upper body constant while simply pushing it downward, without moving the position of his feet, does not yield a credible reconstruction of what we see in the Wiegman frames, where Mr. Lovelady's posture clearly changes between 'upper' to 'lower' frames:



Here's a much more promising point of comparison for the lower frames:



Mr. Lovelady, his body facing forward.

Cf! The one useful contribution which Mr. Mytton (he of 'It's a natural shadow! Maybe Lovelady's bending down to tie his shoelaces!' fame) made to the debate:



The undoctored frames showed the distinctive pattern of Mr. Lovelady's shirt------------------something the cover-up 'investigators', at the time of their 'investigation', did not want people to see.

 

[Dan O'meara]

Is Mr. Lovelady still in transit? It doesn't look at all like it------------------the height/location of his head relative to other stationary markers does not change from frame to frame

I may be wrong, but I don't believe that's what James is saying at all.
As Weigman's camera sweeps in front of the TSBD there are two distinct moments the area of the front steps are shown.
One is as the camera naturally sweeps around going past the the area of the steps (WI) and a second time when the camera suddenly pans back to that area for a very brief moment (W2).
In WI (as James shows in his graphic) it appears that Lovelady is on the top step. When the camera pans back to the steps it seems as if Lovelady has moved down a step or two.
I'm assuming that James' graphic is showing that movement between W1 and W2.
And, even though I've examined Altgens 6 dozens of times, I haven't taken on board how Lovelady's body is twisted so that it is almost front-on to Altgens' position. This would make it side-on to Weigman's position.
All we have to do is imagine that Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6 but, instead of looking towards Altgens, Lovelady is looking to his left. And Hey Presto! This is what we see in Weigman's frames (W2).
Exactly as I've been saying all along. 

[Alan Ford]

I may be wrong, but I don't believe that's what James is saying at all.
As Weigman's camera sweeps in front of the TSBD there are two distinct moments the area of the front steps are shown.
One is as the camera naturally sweeps around going past the the area of the steps (WI) and a second time when the camera suddenly pans back to that area for a very brief moment (W2).
In WI (as James shows in his graphic) it appears that Lovelady is on the top step. When the camera pans back to the steps it seems as if Lovelady has moved down a step or two.
I'm assuming that James' graphic is showing that movement between W1 and W2.
And, even though I've examined Altgens 6 dozens of times, I haven't taken on board how Lovelady's body is twisted so that it is almost front-on to Altgens' position. This would make it side-on to Weigman's position.
All we have to do is imagine that Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6 but, instead of looking towards Altgens, Lovelady is looking to his left. And Hey Presto! This is what we see in Weigman's frames (W2).
Exactly as I've been saying all along. 

Huh? You said Mr. Lovelady is looking over his shoulder, lol

And no, we are certainly not being asked to imagine that "Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6"!



All of which said! I do see now that 3D Mr. Lovelady's left leg goes down a step:



However, this makes matters worse. If Mr. Lovelady's left foot is already taking him forward/down a step, then having him bend forward deeply like a 95-year-old is fanciful, to say the least. And the idea that he then stays there in that geriatric posture across several frames is downright absurd.....................



Not that even THAT extreme contrivance yields a visually credible reconstruction of what Wiegman is showing.

We need to see a scaled 2-image overlay GIF containing:

a) this Wiegman frame


b) the proposed 3D equivalent

 

[Dan O'meara]

Huh? You said Mr. Lovelady is looking over his shoulder, lol

And no, we are certainly not being asked to imagine that "Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6"!



All of which said! I do see now that 3D Mr. Lovelady's left leg goes down a step:



However, this makes matters worse. If Mr. Lovelady's left foot is already taking him forward/down a step, then having him bend forward deeply like a 95-year-old is fanciful, to say the least. And the idea that he then stays there in that geriatric posture across several frames is downright absurd.....................



Not that even THAT extreme contrivance yields a visually credible reconstruction of what Wiegman is showing.

We need to see a scaled 2-image overlay GIF containing:

a) this Wiegman frame


b) the proposed 3D equivalent

 

Hmmm...
A couple of points to make.
I take it that you do now agree that James' graphic represents Lovelady's movement between W1 and W2?
You just seem to skirt over this issue without accepting or refusing it.
I think you should clarify your position on that.

Huh? You said Mr. Lovelady is looking over his shoulder, lol

You seem to think that I've changed my position on that.
What I've described in the post you were responding to is Lovelady looking out towards Weigman's position over his left shoulder.
I'm saying the same thing but you seem a little confused.
Maybe I wasn't clear enough on this point.
People's heads can turn to the left and to the right without their torso moving it's all in the neck.
If Lovelady's body is turned facing Weigman side-on, as Altgens 6 seems to suggest, when he turns his head to the left he is looking towards Weigman's position over his left shoulder.
I honestly don't think I can put this in a simpler, more understandable way.

And no, we are certainly not being asked to imagine that "Lovelady's body position is the same as in Altgens 6"!

Erm...yes, you are.
I asked it in the post you were responding to.
Lovelady's body is turned to face Altgens around z255.
The W2 frames can only be a few seconds before z255 [I'm just guessing this but it seems right].
So, why wouldn't Lovelady's body position be the same in Altgens 6 and the W2 frames?

[Alan Ford]

Hmmm...
A couple of points to make.
I take it that you do now agree that James' graphic represents Lovelady's movement between W1 and W2?

Yes--------already clarified, Mr. O'Meara 

This is how able-bodied people go down steps:



If, on the other hand, you have evidence that Mr. Lovelady had injured his back while working on the floor-laying project, share it with us!



Otherwise, this imagined posture is just too fanciful to be seriously countenanced.

Mr. Hackerott-----of whose 3D modeling talents I am in sincere awe------deserves credit for being the only person to attempt some solution that does NOT take wild recourse to an impossible shadow being cast in that part of the doorway. That his solution doesn't work, even after intensive imaginative contorting of Mr. Lovelady's body, only proves my point------------------and explains eloquently why everyone else has run away from the challenge up to this.

This fancied scenario of 3D Mr. Lovelady stooping low just to take a step down represents the reductio ad absurdum of the 'No Fake Shadow' position:



That it's good enough to convince Mr. Collins, who automatically laps up anything he sees as shoring up the official story, should make alarm bells go off in your head. Then again, you are as fanatical a member of Team Keep LHO Off Them Steps as he is, so birds of a feather etc.

People's heads can turn to the left and to the right without their torso moving it's all in the neck.
If Lovelady's body is turned facing Weigman side-on, as Altgens 6 seems to suggest, when he turns his head to the left he is looking towards Weigman's position over his left shoulder.

'Lovelady looking over his left shoulder'



Are you okay, Mr. O'Meara? Seriously, I'm worried.......................