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Author Topic: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?  (Read 3843 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2020, 12:18:29 AM »
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1 - It's not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Oswald fired a rifle on 11/22/63 or was even on the 6th floor at the time JFK was shot.
There is some direct evidence. But the circumstantial evidence is enough to convince a reasonable person that Oswald was on the 6th floor and fired all three shots. The evidence of what he did afterward speaks volumes.  And the evidence that he fired a shot at Gen Walker's head constituted similar fact evidence of the most cogent kind. 

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2 - Ruby was affiliated with the Mob. The Mob hated the Kennedys. Ruby owed debts at the time of the JFK assassination.
Ruby was a nightclub owner who carried a gun and liked pistol whipping the odd patron who touched his employees inappropriately.   There is innuendo but no hard evidence that he was affiliated with "the mob".  Besides, the Mob disliked Bobby Kennedy more than Jack.  And Frank Sinatra was a good friend of the President.

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3 - There's not enough evidence to rule out multiple shooters and the physical evidence is flawed. Several books have been written detailing the problems with the evidence.
There are always little problems with evidence.  That does not amount to evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence of another shooter.

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4 - The HSCA's bullet analysis linking all the Dealey Plaza bullet's to Oswald's rifle has been debunked too.
Are you referring the the NAA analysis? I will agree that the comparative bullet lead analysis has been debunked.  But that just means that it cannot be shown that the fragments all came from the same bullet.  The shells came from the MC but the only bullet that can be positively tied to the MC is CE399.
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5 - Even among those who think Oswald acted alone, there's no consensus on Oswald's motive. No proof that he opposed or even disliked JFK.
True.  But Oswald was an impulsive person.  How many people do you know who shared his political views actually gave up their citizenship and moved to Russia? How many people who disliked Gen. Walker took a shot at him?  How many people took a longish package to work on the morning of Nov 22/63 and had their palm print on a package in the sniper's nest? Oswald was probably depressed and angry at the world because he was working for $1.25 an hour and had to support a wife and two young children. Not everything that such people do is always rational or well thought out.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 12:19:42 AM by Andrew Mason »

Offline Jon Banks

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2020, 01:17:28 AM »
There is some direct evidence. But the circumstantial evidence is enough to convince a reasonable person that Oswald was on the 6th floor and fired all three shots. The evidence of what he did afterward speaks volumes.  And the evidence that he fired a shot at Gen Walker's head constituted similar fact evidence of the most cogent kind. 

Circumstantial evidence and Assumptions-based evidence is all there is.

Perhaps that's plenty for you to be certain that he acted alone but for most people, it's obvious that we don't know the whole story.

Ruby was a nightclub owner who carried a gun and liked pistol whipping the odd patron who touched his employees inappropriately.   There is innuendo but no hard evidence that he was affiliated with "the mob".  Besides, the Mob disliked Bobby Kennedy more than Jack.  And Frank Sinatra was a good friend of the President.

From his childhood in Chicago up until 11/22/63, Ruby was associated with the Chicago Mob and later, the Dallas and New Orleans organized crime organizations. 

Carlos Marcello, the New Orleans Godfather, hated JFK and vowed to have him killed.

Joseph Campisi of the Civello crime family in Dallas was one of Ruby's first visitors in when he was Jailed after shooting Oswald.


There are always little problems with evidence. 

True but it can be argued due to the problems with the forensic evidence, that we can't conclusively say there were no other shooters.


Are you referring the the NAA analysis? I will agree that the comparative bullet lead analysis has been debunked.  But that just means that it cannot be shown that the fragments all came from the same bullet.  The shells came from the MC but the only bullet that can be positively tied to the MC is CE399.

Yes, the NAA bullet analysis has been debunked.

Also, we don't know for certain that CE399 wasn't planted due to the broken chain of evidence.

I'm inclined to believe it was planted.


True.  But Oswald was an impulsive person.  How many people do you know who shared his political views actually gave up their citizenship and moved to Russia? How many people who disliked Gen. Walker took a shot at him?  How many people took a longish package to work on the morning of Nov 22/63 and had their palm print on a package in the sniper's nest? Oswald was probably depressed and angry at the world because he was working for $1.25 an hour and had to support a wife and two young children. Not everything that such people do is always rational or well thought out.

Oswald did lots of odd things that can be interpreted more than one way.

Individuals often apply their own emotions and biases when interpreting the evidence...
« Last Edit: November 29, 2020, 01:18:04 AM by Jon Banks »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2020, 08:28:00 PM »
There is some direct evidence. But the circumstantial evidence is enough to convince a reasonable person that Oswald was on the 6th floor and fired all three shots.

Bull.

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The evidence of what he did afterward speaks volumes.

Yes, it speaks volumes about your confirmation bias.

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2020, 08:28:00 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2020, 09:58:11 PM »
Bull.

Yes, it speaks volumes about your confirmation bias.
So what are the alternative, reasonable explanations for:
1. Oswald leaving the TSBD without telling anyone, including Roy Truly.
2. Oswald willing to spend a significant portion of his daily wage on a taxi to get home quickly.
3. Oswald not remaining at his rooming house for more than a few minutes but getting his hand gun.
4. Oswald shooting Officer Tippitt.
5. Oswald entering the Texas Theater without paying.
6. Oswald saying "Well its over now" or words to that effect and pulling his handgun out when arrested?
7.  Oswald admitting to Marina that he had fired a shot at General Walker with the MC and leaving a the letter for her, and having pictures of Gen. Walkers house...?

When we get that sorted out, try explaining
1. why Oswald's lunch required a long package placed in the back seat of Buell Frazier's car and
2. why Oswald wanted him to believe it was curtain rods, ...
3. why Oswald's the paper package that contained "curtain rods" was found in the SN.

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2020, 03:32:59 AM »
So what are the alternative, reasonable explanations for:
Goldilocks and The Three Bears--- do you believe that one too?

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2020, 03:32:59 AM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2020, 05:12:08 AM »
Goldilocks and The Three Bears--- do you believe that one too?
Let's face it. If this was about some random person being shot on the street by someone with a rifle on the sixth floor, you would not be  quibbling about the sufficiency of the evidence to convict Oswald as the shooter.  So the dispute is not about evidence. There is plenty of evidence to connect the dots.

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2020, 05:59:54 AM »
So what are the alternative, reasonable explanations for:
1. Oswald leaving the TSBD without telling anyone, including Roy Truly.

There was no more work that day. All the employees were dismissed. We donít know exactly when.

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2. Oswald willing to spend a significant portion of his daily wage on a taxi to get home quickly.

We donít know for a fact that he did. But thatís evidence of murder?

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3. Oswald not remaining at his rooming house for more than a few minutes but getting his hand gun.

You donít know that he got a handgun at the rooming house. Thatís pure conjecture.

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4. Oswald shooting Officer Tippitt.

Thatís one of the things youíre trying to prove.

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5. Oswald entering the Texas Theater without paying.

Nobody saw Oswald enter the Texas Theater without paying. But is that supposed to be evidence of murder?

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6. Oswald saying "Well its over now" or words to that effect

McDonald was the only one in the building who claimed to hear anything like this.

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and pulling his handgun out when arrested?

Not even McDonald claimed this. Itís pure Nutter mythology.

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7.  Oswald admitting to Marina that he had fired a shot at General Walker with the MC

Marina didnít say anything about ďthe MCĒ. And Marina said a lot of things. She also said Lee took a gun to go take a look at Nixon when Nixon wasnít even in town.

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and leaving a the letter for her

You mean the unsigned, undated note in Russian that doesnít mention Walker or shooting? What does this have to do with JFK anyway?

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, and having pictures of Gen. Walkers house...?

Really? He had them? Or were they found in the Painesí garage?

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When we get that sorted out, try explaining
1. why Oswald's lunch required a long package placed in the back seat of Buell Frazier's car

The bag that was too short to contain the alleged murder weapon?

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2. why Oswald wanted him to believe it was curtain rods, ...

You donít know what it contained.

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3. why Oswald's the paper package that contained "curtain rods" was found in the SN.

No, a paper bag that Frazier said was not the same bag was allegedly found in the ďSNĒ but doesnít appear in any crime scene photos.

How do any of these misrepresentations tell us who shot JFK?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2020, 06:01:30 AM by John Iacoletti »

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2020, 05:59:54 AM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: 57 years: Does it matter how we remember 11-22-63?
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2020, 06:19:46 AM »
So what are the alternative, reasonable explanations for:

1. Oswald leaving the TSBD without telling anyone, including Roy Truly.
>>> He said he was just going to a movie so it must be true

2. Oswald willing to spend a significant portion of his daily wage on a taxi to get home quickly.
>>> He was having a torrid affair with Earlene

3. Oswald not remaining at his rooming house for more than a few minutes but getting his hand gun.
>>> His affair with Earlene was just at the 'touch & go' stage.

4. Oswald shooting Officer Tippitt.
>>> He was having a bad hair day

5. Oswald entering the Texas Theater without paying
>>> He needed the money to buy popcorn

6. Oswald saying "Well its over now" or words to that effect and pulling his handgun out when arrested?
>>> Re 'Well its over now: He was referring to the movie. And he was taking the gun out to show the cops how nifty it was: It's what boys do.

7.  Oswald admitting to Marina that he had fired a shot at General Walker with the MC and leaving a the letter for her, and having pictures of Gen. Walkers house...?
>>> He wrote the letter to get her to do more chores. He needed the BY photos and the Walker incident for his resumť

When we get that sorted out, try explaining
1. why Oswald's lunch required a long package placed in the back seat of Buell Frazier's car
>>> It was a broken-down Carcano-sized 34.8" sandwich

2. why Oswald wanted him to believe it was curtain rods[/b], ...
>>> He didn't want anyone to find out that he had an eating disorder

3. why Oswald's the paper package that contained "curtain rods" was found in the SN
>>> By that time it contained only bread crumbs, but not enough to confirm the type of bread.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2020, 12:45:39 AM by Bill Chapman »