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Author Topic: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)  (Read 576 times)

Offline Margaret Kelly

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Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« on: November 07, 2019, 05:31:22 PM »
I'm looking to build my own snipers nests. Specifically i'm interested in the stacks of boxes 2 feet back from the south wall of the TSBD that were acting as a shield for the snipers area. I think i'll need about 20 boxes or so. My understanding is that the boxes were: 18 inches x 14 inches x 12 inches. Is that correct?

And does anyone know where i can get a decal of the "Books" emblem so that i can put them on my boxes and make them look real? (Or have a good clear picture, straight-on, of the "Books" writing on the boxes which i could have made into a decal?)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 06:08:17 PM by Margaret Kelly »

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Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« on: November 07, 2019, 05:31:22 PM »

Online Charles Collins

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2019, 07:37:44 PM »
I'm looking to build my own snipers nests. Specifically i'm interested in the stacks of boxes 2 feet back from the south wall of the TSBD that were acting as a shield for the snipers area. I think i'll need about 20 boxes or so. My understanding is that the boxes were: 18 inches x 14 inches x 12 inches. Is that correct?

And does anyone know where i can get a decal of the "Books" emblem so that i can put them on my boxes and make them look real? (Or have a good clear picture, straight-on, of the "Books" writing on the boxes which i could have made into a decal?)

Here is a thread I started a while back that has some good information in it:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2028.0.html


I was mostly interested in the boxes in and under the window.

Also see this thread:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2090.0.html

The sixth floor museum at dealey plaza had some replica boxes made for their replica of the sniper's nest. You might be able to get information from them about where they came from.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 07:55:02 PM »
 

The National Archives preserved "Box D" ("New People & Progress") that was on the floor near the corner. It's probably a different dimension than the boxes in the stack you referred to. However, the "BOOKS" imprint is largely the same and you can download a very large gif image of the (above-right) image from the Archives site.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305161

"Box C" ("The Three Preprimers") was on-end and on the floor by the window opening. It's also at the Archives.



I believe the two boxes at the base of the stack (ie: the stack that sits back from the window) that are nearest the camera (in the pictures below) are the same as "Box C".

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305163


 

There are fourteen boxes in the stack that sits back from the window. They vary in size, too. The Sixth-Floor Museum reproduced with some accuracy the stack and may have some dimensions on record. The boxes on display were manufactured for the Museum.

The Sniper Nest corner is sealed and can only be entered during maintenance. Stephen Fagin is the Museum curator.

Museum site: https://www.jfk.org/

I recreated that stack in 3D but it's largely guesswork based on photo-comparison.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 03:36:44 AM by Jerry Organ »

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 07:55:02 PM »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2019, 02:08:12 AM »
I'm looking to build my own snipers nests. Specifically i'm interested in the stacks of boxes 2 feet back from the south wall of the TSBD that were acting as a shield for the snipers area. I think i'll need about 20 boxes or so. My understanding is that the boxes were: 18 inches x 14 inches x 12 inches. Is that correct?

And does anyone know where i can get a decal of the "Books" emblem so that i can put them on my boxes and make them look real? (Or have a good clear picture, straight-on, of the "Books" writing on the boxes which i could have made into a decal?)

Welcome Margaret, this is a great idea for a project, I suggested Paul Ernst do something similar so he could prove his theories but he didn't seem interested, and do you plan on recreating the window?
Btw if you don't mind me asking, what do you plan on doing with your completed sniper's nest?

JohnM

Offline Margaret Kelly

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 09:13:58 PM »
There are fourteen boxes in the stack that sits back from the window. They vary in size, too. The Sixth-Floor Museum reproduced with some accuracy the stack and may have some dimensions on record. The boxes on display were manufactured for the Museum.

I recreated that stack in 3D but it's largely guesswork based on photo-comparison.

I'm trying to recreate it too, but a physical one to see how easy it is to maneuver in a tight space. There appears to be some controversy about whether there were:

3 Stacks of books: The order of this configuration is the stack closest to the east wall is 4 boxes high, next is 5 boxes high, next is 4 boxes (this is how it is laid out currently in the 6th floor museum)
2 Stacks of books: The order of this configuration is on the Studebaker map and is missing the eastern most stack of books, and also the box on top of the middle stack is missing ..thus reducing that stacks height from 5 to 4. Thus the order of the 2 stacks of books configuration (as per the Studebaker map) is 2 stacks each 4 boxes high.

Here is the Studebaker map:



This map places the 1st stack of books at 5 feet 6 inches from the east wall. This leaves a comfortable gap of 30 inches for Oswald to get in and out of the snipers nest. However under the 3 box configuration, this gap is reduced to 12 inches. Here is the 3 stack and the 2 stack configuration layout for clarity:





The 6th floor museum goes with the 3 stack layout, and some police photos show the 3 stack layout too (in contradiction of the Studebaker map):





The famous photo of the 3 cartridges also appears to show 3 stacks with the easternmost stack in the front foreground of this picture:



Having said that, the official photos for the Warren Commission showed a 2 stack layout (as did the secret service reenactment video):



The Hughes film, taken as the motorcade rounded the corner in front of the TSBD appears to show a 3 stack layout:



Therefore, i was inclined to believe there was a 3 stack layout. That means that the studebaker map is wrong. EXCEPT for one key dimension - the Studebaker map places its easternmost stack at 5 feet 6 inches from the east wall. Under the 3 stack configuration, this easternmost stack is actually the middle stack now of the 3 stack configuration. Therefore the gap for Oswald to get in and out of the snipers nest reduces from 30 inches to 12 inches.

« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 09:17:43 PM by Margaret Kelly »

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 09:13:58 PM »

Offline Brian Doyle

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Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 09:15:14 PM »

I wonder if 6 post Maggie knows Christina Flowers?...

Offline Margaret Kelly

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 09:28:05 PM »
There seems to be a major discrepancy with what the 6th floor museum is showing. Their eastern-most stack of books (in the 3 stack layout) seems to be closer to the east wall of the TSBD than official photos of the 3 stack layout show. Check out these 3 photos:







The police photo of the 3 stack layout looks to have the 3 stack layout further away from the east wall than the 6th floor museums layout.

How can the entire 3 stack configuration move in the direction of the east wall like this (as per the 6th floor museum layout)? Shouldn't both layouts be using the 5 foot 6 inch distance of the middle stack from the east wall as guidance (as per the Studebaker map)? Unless, given Gary Macks conspiracy theorist mindset, while still alive he deliberately pushed the 3 stack configuration closer to the east wall of the TSBD in order to make Oswalds access in and out deliberately look small?

In fact, in the police photo the stacks are packed tight together. However, in the 6th floor museum layout, the eastern-most stack is pushed out about 1 inch from the middle stack. This is arguably a deliberate effort to push the eastern-most stack as close to the east wall as possible to make it look almost impossible for Oswald to squeeze in and out of the snipers nest.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 09:38:50 PM by Margaret Kelly »

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 09:28:05 PM »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 10:03:06 PM »
I wonder if 6 post Maggie knows Christina Flowers?...

That's a strong possibility because it looks like the whole I want to build a sniper's nest really means "she" wants to tear it down!

JohnM
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 10:21:05 PM by John Mytton »

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 10:03:06 PM »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2019, 10:11:48 PM »
Not only construct the snipers nest as it actually was, but also some requirements for a test shooter if one is going to try to replicate the shots:

1. Shooter must wait in the SN for about 5 minutes prior to when target  dark blue limo vehicle with replica 3d dummy, with dark hair, dressed in dark suit, starts moving down a line approximating the Elm st slightly lateral movement line.

2. Shooter cannot work the bolt during this 5 minutes, since such noise would have been heard by Harold Norman below on the 5th floor, as Norman was there from 12:24 forward to 12:30, he and Jarman haveing reached their 5th floor windows by 12:24.

3. Shooter must not be allowed to "set up" or move into whatever firing position he can take, until AFTER the target limo begins to move.

4. Shooter is not allowed to use the scope as the scope was out of alignment. He must use only the iron sights and those sights should be have a fixed zero at 200 yds or meters

5. A Tree or something that simulates the Tree should be  in about the same position as the tree which blocked the actual TSBD shooter vision for a period from about Z200 to Z223

6. The shooter is given only one chance to fire the weapon and must not have practiced within about a month with an MC rifle nor, must he have any experience shooting from 72 ft high platform at a moving target that changes speed from 15mph to 7mph along a slight lateral angle relative to the .sniper platform

7. The shooter must hold the rifle with bare hands and after firing the 3rd shot, must slowly withdraw the rifle before he gets up to leave from the reconstructed SN. He must then take a path that replicates the 6th floor path used by actual shooter, and while traversing this 180 ft distance, at about 8 to 10 ft per second, wipe off all prints from the rifle. He must then stop at some rows of boxes close together, and wedge the rifle all the way down to the floor between those 2 parallel rows of boxes at the height they actually stacked at. A stopwatch time here would helpful, to determine if it as suspected, would take at least 35 seconds or more to accomplish, before the shooter begins his descent down staircases.

8. The shooter must then decend an L shaped staircase of 18 steps and a mid landing about 5 ft square and then cross at least 15 ft of landing, until he reaches a landing level 2 floors down and halfway down the next staircase from that level so as to be completely out of sight of anyone on the 4th level who,if they exited the office would be able to see the landing and part of the downward staircase. A stopwatch timing of this would be most helpful.

Offline Margaret Kelly

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2019, 10:21:39 PM »
This recent photo by James Hackerott (from this forum) shows the space for someone to get in and out of the snipers nest at only about 6-8 inches wide:



The police photos show it at closer to about 11-12 inches wide.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 10:28:24 PM by Margaret Kelly »

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Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2019, 10:21:39 PM »

 

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