JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Margaret Kelly on November 07, 2019, 05:31:22 PM

Title: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Margaret Kelly on November 07, 2019, 05:31:22 PM
I'm looking to build my own snipers nests. Specifically i'm interested in the stacks of boxes 2 feet back from the south wall of the TSBD that were acting as a shield for the snipers area. I think i'll need about 20 boxes or so. My understanding is that the boxes were: 18 inches x 14 inches x 12 inches. Is that correct?

And does anyone know where i can get a decal of the "Books" emblem so that i can put them on my boxes and make them look real? (Or have a good clear picture, straight-on, of the "Books" writing on the boxes which i could have made into a decal?)
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Charles Collins on November 07, 2019, 07:37:44 PM
I'm looking to build my own snipers nests. Specifically i'm interested in the stacks of boxes 2 feet back from the south wall of the TSBD that were acting as a shield for the snipers area. I think i'll need about 20 boxes or so. My understanding is that the boxes were: 18 inches x 14 inches x 12 inches. Is that correct?

And does anyone know where i can get a decal of the "Books" emblem so that i can put them on my boxes and make them look real? (Or have a good clear picture, straight-on, of the "Books" writing on the boxes which i could have made into a decal?)

Here is a thread I started a while back that has some good information in it:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2028.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2028.0.html)


I was mostly interested in the boxes in and under the window.

Also see this thread:

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2090.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2090.0.html)

The sixth floor museum at dealey plaza had some replica boxes made for their replica of the sniper's nest. You might be able to get information from them about where they came from.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Jerry Organ on November 07, 2019, 07:55:02 PM
(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338378/m1/1/med_res/)  (https://catalog.archives.gov/OpaAPI/media/305161/content/arcmedia/media/images/33/34/33-3379a.gif)

The National Archives preserved "Box D" ("New People & Progress") that was on the floor near the corner. It's probably a different dimension than the boxes in the stack you referred to. However, the "BOOKS" imprint is largely the same and you can download a very large gif image of the (above-right) image from the Archives site.

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305161 (https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305161)

"Box C" ("The Three Preprimers") was on-end and on the floor by the window opening. It's also at the Archives.

(https://catalog.archives.gov/OpaAPI/media/305163/content/arcmedia/media/images/33/34/33-3388a.gif)

I believe the two boxes at the base of the stack (ie: the stack that sits back from the window) that are nearest the camera (in the pictures below) are the same as "Box C".

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305163 (https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305163)


(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184779/m1/1/med_res/)  (https://www.tourtexas.com/content_images/window-sixth-floor-museum-dallas.jpg)

There are fourteen boxes in the stack that sits back from the window. They vary in size, too. The Sixth-Floor Museum reproduced with some accuracy the stack and may have some dimensions on record. The boxes on display were manufactured for the Museum.

The Sniper Nest corner is sealed and can only be entered during maintenance. Stephen Fagin is the Museum curator.

Museum site: https://www.jfk.org/ (https://www.jfk.org/)

I recreated that stack in 3D but it's largely guesswork based on photo-comparison.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: John Mytton on November 08, 2019, 02:08:12 AM
I'm looking to build my own snipers nests. Specifically i'm interested in the stacks of boxes 2 feet back from the south wall of the TSBD that were acting as a shield for the snipers area. I think i'll need about 20 boxes or so. My understanding is that the boxes were: 18 inches x 14 inches x 12 inches. Is that correct?

And does anyone know where i can get a decal of the "Books" emblem so that i can put them on my boxes and make them look real? (Or have a good clear picture, straight-on, of the "Books" writing on the boxes which i could have made into a decal?)

Welcome Margaret, this is a great idea for a project, I suggested Paul Ernst do something similar so he could prove his theories but he didn't seem interested, and do you plan on recreating the window?
Btw if you don't mind me asking, what do you plan on doing with your completed sniper's nest?

JohnM
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Margaret Kelly on November 08, 2019, 09:13:58 PM
There are fourteen boxes in the stack that sits back from the window. They vary in size, too. The Sixth-Floor Museum reproduced with some accuracy the stack and may have some dimensions on record. The boxes on display were manufactured for the Museum.

I recreated that stack in 3D but it's largely guesswork based on photo-comparison.

I'm trying to recreate it too, but a physical one to see how easy it is to maneuver in a tight space. There appears to be some controversy about whether there were:

3 Stacks of books: The order of this configuration is the stack closest to the east wall is 4 boxes high, next is 5 boxes high, next is 4 boxes (this is how it is laid out currently in the 6th floor museum)
2 Stacks of books: The order of this configuration is on the Studebaker map and is missing the eastern most stack of books, and also the box on top of the middle stack is missing ..thus reducing that stacks height from 5 to 4. Thus the order of the 2 stacks of books configuration (as per the Studebaker map) is 2 stacks each 4 boxes high.

Here is the Studebaker map:

(https://i.ibb.co/9WyQ6Q1/Studebaker-map.png)

This map places the 1st stack of books at 5 feet 6 inches from the east wall. This leaves a comfortable gap of 30 inches for Oswald to get in and out of the snipers nest. However under the 3 box configuration, this gap is reduced to 12 inches. Here is the 3 stack and the 2 stack configuration layout for clarity:

(https://i.ibb.co/sCBSTYb/Real-Snipers-Nest.png)

(https://i.ibb.co/XVYxM8T/Official-Snipers-Nest.png)

The 6th floor museum goes with the 3 stack layout, and some police photos show the 3 stack layout too (in contradiction of the Studebaker map):

(https://i.ibb.co/vj0W1Jm/6th-Floor-Museum-Layout.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/fFj5kSS/Police-Photo-with-3-stacks.jpg)

The famous photo of the 3 cartridges also appears to show 3 stacks with the easternmost stack in the front foreground of this picture:

(https://i.ibb.co/mG1kVF9/3-Shells-Image.png)

Having said that, the official photos for the Warren Commission showed a 2 stack layout (as did the secret service reenactment video):

(https://i.ibb.co/kKtv9gH/Warren-Commission-Snipers-Nest-Layout.jpg)

The Hughes film, taken as the motorcade rounded the corner in front of the TSBD appears to show a 3 stack layout:

(https://i.ibb.co/pz6PSXv/3-Red-Boxes.png)

Therefore, i was inclined to believe there was a 3 stack layout. That means that the studebaker map is wrong. EXCEPT for one key dimension - the Studebaker map places its easternmost stack at 5 feet 6 inches from the east wall. Under the 3 stack configuration, this easternmost stack is actually the middle stack now of the 3 stack configuration. Therefore the gap for Oswald to get in and out of the snipers nest reduces from 30 inches to 12 inches.

Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Margaret Kelly on November 08, 2019, 09:28:05 PM
There seems to be a major discrepancy with what the 6th floor museum is showing. Their eastern-most stack of books (in the 3 stack layout) seems to be closer to the east wall of the TSBD than official photos of the 3 stack layout show. Check out these 3 photos:

(https://i.ibb.co/vj0W1Jm/6th-Floor-Museum-Layout.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/tP5CFBB/Box-wrong.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/fFj5kSS/Police-Photo-with-3-stacks.jpg)

The police photo of the 3 stack layout looks to have the 3 stack layout further away from the east wall than the 6th floor museums layout.

How can the entire 3 stack configuration move in the direction of the east wall like this (as per the 6th floor museum layout)? Shouldn't both layouts be using the 5 foot 6 inch distance of the middle stack from the east wall as guidance (as per the Studebaker map)? Unless, given Gary Macks conspiracy theorist mindset, while still alive he deliberately pushed the 3 stack configuration closer to the east wall of the TSBD in order to make Oswalds access in and out deliberately look small?

In fact, in the police photo the stacks are packed tight together. However, in the 6th floor museum layout, the eastern-most stack is pushed out about 1 inch from the middle stack. This is arguably a deliberate effort to push the eastern-most stack as close to the east wall as possible to make it look almost impossible for Oswald to squeeze in and out of the snipers nest.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Zeon Mason on November 08, 2019, 10:11:48 PM
Not only construct the snipers nest as it actually was, but also some requirements for a test shooter if one is going to try to replicate the shots:

1. Shooter must wait in the SN for about 5 minutes prior to when target  dark blue limo vehicle with replica 3d dummy, with dark hair, dressed in dark suit, starts moving down a line approximating the Elm st slightly lateral movement line.

2. Shooter cannot work the bolt during this 5 minutes, since such noise would have been heard by Harold Norman below on the 5th floor, as Norman was there from 12:24 forward to 12:30, he and Jarman haveing reached their 5th floor windows by 12:24.

3. Shooter must not be allowed to "set up" or move into whatever firing position he can take, until AFTER the target limo begins to move.

4. Shooter is not allowed to use the scope as the scope was out of alignment. He must use only the iron sights and those sights should be have a fixed zero at 200 yds or meters

5. A Tree or something that simulates the Tree should be  in about the same position as the tree which blocked the actual TSBD shooter vision for a period from about Z200 to Z223

6. The shooter is given only one chance to fire the weapon and must not have practiced within about a month with an MC rifle nor, must he have any experience shooting from 72 ft high platform at a moving target that changes speed from 15mph to 7mph along a slight lateral angle relative to the .sniper platform

7. The shooter must hold the rifle with bare hands and after firing the 3rd shot, must slowly withdraw the rifle before he gets up to leave from the reconstructed SN. He must then take a path that replicates the 6th floor path used by actual shooter, and while traversing this 180 ft distance, at about 8 to 10 ft per second, wipe off all prints from the rifle. He must then stop at some rows of boxes close together, and wedge the rifle all the way down to the floor between those 2 parallel rows of boxes at the height they actually stacked at. A stopwatch time here would helpful, to determine if it as suspected, would take at least 35 seconds or more to accomplish, before the shooter begins his descent down staircases.

8. The shooter must then decend an L shaped staircase of 18 steps and a mid landing about 5 ft square and then cross at least 15 ft of landing, until he reaches a landing level 2 floors down and halfway down the next staircase from that level so as to be completely out of sight of anyone on the 4th level who,if they exited the office would be able to see the landing and part of the downward staircase. A stopwatch timing of this would be most helpful.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Margaret Kelly on November 08, 2019, 10:21:39 PM
This recent photo by James Hackerott (from this forum) shows the space for someone to get in and out of the snipers nest at only about 6-8 inches wide:

(https://i.ibb.co/5s2vZN1/Tight-space.png)

The police photos show it at closer to about 11-12 inches wide.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Charles Collins on November 09, 2019, 12:42:25 AM
There seems to be a major discrepancy with what the 6th floor museum is showing. Their eastern-most stack of books (in the 3 stack layout) seems to be closer to the east wall of the TSBD than official photos of the 3 stack layout show. Check out these 3 photos:

(https://i.ibb.co/vj0W1Jm/6th-Floor-Museum-Layout.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/tP5CFBB/Box-wrong.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/fFj5kSS/Police-Photo-with-3-stacks.jpg)

The police photo of the 3 stack layout looks to have the 3 stack layout further away from the east wall than the 6th floor museums layout.

How can the entire 3 stack configuration move in the direction of the east wall like this (as per the 6th floor museum layout)? Shouldn't both layouts be using the 5 foot 6 inch distance of the middle stack from the east wall as guidance (as per the Studebaker map)? Unless, given Gary Macks conspiracy theorist mindset, while still alive he deliberately pushed the 3 stack configuration closer to the east wall of the TSBD in order to make Oswalds access in and out deliberately look small?

In fact, in the police photo the stacks are packed tight together. However, in the 6th floor museum layout, the eastern-most stack is pushed out about 1 inch from the middle stack. This is arguably a deliberate effort to push the eastern-most stack as close to the east wall as possible to make it look almost impossible for Oswald to squeeze in and out of the snipers nest.

There are three DPD photos that were testified as being taken before anything was moved. These show the hulls on the floor. Any photo that shows the stacks of boxes in locations different than they are in those 3 photos would have been taken after someone relocated them. If I remember correctly, the diagram by Studebaker was not drawn until Monday (11/25/63). There was reportedly quite a few press members there over the weekend taking photos, etc. Therefore, the diagram dimensions are questionable.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Margaret Kelly on November 09, 2019, 01:14:13 AM
If I remember correctly, the diagram by Studebaker was not drawn until Monday (11/25/63). There was reportedly quite a few press members there over the weekend taking photos, etc. Therefore, the diagram dimensions are questionable.
I disagree. Assuming those boxes were full of books (which they almost certainly were) stacks 2 and 3 (with stack 1 being the most easterly stack) would not have been moved by accident by reporters. It appears stack 1 (the most easterly stack) was moved out of the way in order to make examination of the snipers nest more easy. When it was put back is uncertain. That's what it appears to me anyway (the other scenario is that there was never a stack 1 but that Day or Studebaker moved boxes out of the corner (near the pipes) into position in stack 1s position in order to be able to get far enough into the corner to take the famous photo looking downwards at the 3 shells on the floor). Once this photo was taken, stack 1 was dismantled.This potentially created a problem with some officers who remembered seeing 3 stacks and thought stack 1 was part of the original barricade and so stack 1 was "reconstructed" for the police photos in the days afterwards. The Tom Alyea footage appears to only show 2 stacks:

(https://i.ibb.co/ns5J4ZL/Tom-Atleya-Footage-2.png)

This is what is creating doubt in my mind. Did Studebaker know something we don't know and that's why he only drew 2 stacks of books? If there were 3 originally, he would surely remember trying to squeeze into the tight snipers nest with 3 stacks there ...which is what is making me question did he move boxes out of the way into the position of "stack 1". He woudl have access to all the officers that saw the original snipers nest. He would have been able to get confirmation if his map was right in addition to the fact he was in the snipers nest too taking photos when it was discovered. 

In any case, as stack 2 could not have been accidentally moved (due to its weight), knowing that stack 2 was 5 feet 6 inches from the east wall of the TSBD (as per Studebakers map) allows us to place the entire 3 stacks in place.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Charles Collins on November 09, 2019, 01:23:37 AM
I disagree. Assuming those boxes were full of books (which they almost certainly were) stacks 2 and 3 (with stack 1 being the most easterly stack) would not have been moved by accident by reporters. It appears stack 1 (the most easterly stack) was moved out of the way in order to make examination of the snipers nest more easy. When it was put back is uncertain. That's what it appears to me anyway (the other scenario is that there was never a stack 1 but that Day or Studebaker moved boxes out of the corner (near the pipes) into position in stack 1s position in order to be able to get far enough into the corner to take the famous photo looking downwards at the 3 shells on the floor). Once this photo was taken, stack 1 was dismantled.This potentially created a problem with some officers who remembered seeing 3 stacks and thought stack 1 was part of the original barricade and so stack 1 was "reconstructed" for the police photos in the days afterwards. The Tom Alyea footage appears to only show 2 stacks:

(https://i.ibb.co/ns5J4ZL/Tom-Atleya-Footage-2.png)

This is what is creating doubt in my mind. Did Studebaker know something we don't know and that's why he only drew 2 stacks of books? If there were 3 originally, he would surely remember trying to squeeze into the tight snipers nest with 3 stacks there ...which is what is making me question did he move boxes out of the way into the position of "stack 1". He woudl have access to all the officers that saw the original snipers nest. He would have been able to get confirmation if his map was right in addition to the fact he was in the snipers nest too taking photos when it was discovered. 

In any case, as stack 2 could not have been accidentally moved (due to its weight), knowing that stack 2 was 5 feet 6 inches from the east wall of the TSBD (as per Studebakers map) allows us to place the entire 3 stacks in place.

I think that you need to be discussing this with Walt Cakebread. He seems to have a vivid imagination too.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Margaret Kelly on November 09, 2019, 01:26:23 AM
I think that you need to be discussing this with Walt Cakebread. He seems to have a vivid imagination too.

I don't understand. Do you think there were 2 or 3 stacks of books?
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Charles Collins on November 09, 2019, 01:29:04 AM
I don't understand. Do you think there were 2 or 3 stacks of books?

3
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Margaret Kelly on November 09, 2019, 01:35:18 AM
3

Me too. I'm just surprised Studebaker and the Warren Commission went with just 2 stacks. I guess a reasonable explanation is that Studebaker just guessed when he was doing his map on the 25th (perhaps there were just 2 stacks on that day) ...and he didn't realize that his photo of the 3 shells caught a glimpse of a 3rd stack in the foreground of his picture.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Charles Collins on November 09, 2019, 01:49:54 AM
Me too. I'm just surprised Studebaker and the Warren Commission went with just 2 stacks. I guess a reasonable explanation is that Studebaker just guessed when he was doing his map on the 25th (perhaps there were just 2 stacks on that day) ...and he didn't realize that his photo of the 3 shells caught a glimpse of a 3rd stack in the foreground of his picture.

Oswald was dead. The rifle had been returned to the DPD from the FBI but just sat in the unopened box. My guess is that Studebaker was just following orders and going through the motions. The sixth floor museum had access to many of the police officers involved, including Carl Day, when they were researching this stuff. My guess is that they have it as close as can be determined. But it would be interesting to hear what they have to say about it.
Title: Re: Help me build my own snipers nest (buying cardboard boxes)
Post by: Jerry Organ on November 09, 2019, 02:31:55 AM
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/depository/eaglesham-revamped-2017.png)

From the east wall interior to the masonry opening for the Sniper's Nest window frame is 33 inches. Day's distance of 5' 6" (66") is probably from the east wall to where the middle stack began. As suggested, the eastern-most stack seems to have been removed by Monday.

(https://i.ibb.co/mhWT2QH/SN-14-Count-Box-Stack.jpg)

The Museum's boxes were placed with reference to how the original cartons sat on the floorboards as seen in the DPD Crime Lab photos. The floorboards are the same as in 1963. Assuming the 14-count stack was situated reasonably accurately, it's possible the cartons got re-stacked over the years and shifted a bit.