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Author Topic: The "Domino Room Alibi"  (Read 13129 times)

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #210 on: September 20, 2019, 03:27:37 AM »
@ Colin and Martin....

Allow me to copy something I wrote nine years ago concerning the general "Who Saw Oswald And When?" topic we're discussing today. (Having material dealing with various sub-topics already archived at my own website saves a lot of time, vs. having to type everything all over again.) ....

---- quote on: ----

"Piper said he last saw Oswald "just at 12 o'clock" [6 H 383]. ....
Givens said he last saw Oswald "about 5 minutes to 12" [6 H 351]. (I'm
guessing that CTers want to make David Belin out to be a liar and a
schemer by the fact that he seems to cut off Givens right after Givens
says "5 minutes to 12". I'm sure that some conspiracists think Belin
was stopping Givens from saying something like this: "...because it
was right before I saw Malcolm Wallace in the building; Wallace had a
rifle and some spent shells in his hand; as I was going back down in
the elevator, he told me that he needed to get back up to the sixth
floor to start planting a bunch of stuff; I really didn't understand
what Mac was talking about though, Mr. Belin, so I just came on back
down and ate my lunch."
)

Bill Shelley said he last saw Oswald on November 22 on the first floor
"10 or 15 minutes before 12" [7 H 390].

But the Warren Commission and its counsel were smart enough to know
that ALL of these times for the various "Last Sightings Of Oswald" are
only approximate times. They are, of course, just guesses on the part
of the people who supplied the information -- from Givens, to Shelley,
to Piper, and all the other TSBD witnesses too.

At the time of their "I Saw Oswald" observations on November 22nd,
none of these people had any reason at all to take notice of the EXACT
time they saw another employee walking around the building. They were
later asked to reconstruct (as best they could) the timing of certain
events.

And the timing of seeing Oswald in the building is an event that was
undoubtedly so completely insignificant and unimportant to each one of
those witnesses at the time it was occurring that they had no way to
reconstruct with precision the times at which they saw Oswald.

It was, however, around lunchtime for these employees (around
noontime). So that fact ("lunch") helps out when it comes to the
times. But as some of the witnesses also said--they apparently broke
for lunch a little earlier than their normal time on November 22 (to
see the President).

But, overall, the "timing" issue is far from being exact. And, as I
said, the Warren Commission knew that this was the case in the first
place. They HAD to know it. They were asking a group of people to
search their memories for the time of an event (seeing Lee Harvey
Oswald) that meant absolutely NOTHING to each one of those people at
the time when it occurred.

And while Charles Givens' cigarette trip back up to the sixth floor
does, indeed, put Oswald on the sixth floor after Bill Shelley's
stated time of having last seen Oswald that day--we're still only
talking about a matter of about five minutes (in approximated time).

Givens could easily have been off in his time by 5 or 10 minutes.
Maybe more. We can never know for certain. And the same thing applies
to Eddie Piper and William Shelley and Bonnie Ray Williams and all the
rest of the TSBD witnesses.

But to think that a bunch of random estimated times supplied by the
Depository employees is enough to exonerate Lee Oswald for shooting
JFK is just not a reasonable position to take.

The bottom line is this -- We know that Lee Harvey Oswald was on an
upper floor of the TSBD at some point in time that was shortly before
12:00 noon on 11/22/63, because the four men in the elevator race
(Williams, Givens, Arce, and Lovelady) all corroborate that single
event -- Oswald being on an upper floor of the building at the time
when those four men were descending to the first floor FOR THEIR
LUNCH BREAK, WHICH WAS OBVIOUSLY PRETTY CLOSE TO NOONTIME
ON NOVEMBER 22."
-- DVP; September 7, 2010

----------------------------------------------------------

Also see my "Oswald Timeline" below:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html

----------------------------------------------------------

Of course the "times" used by various individuals are only estimations but there are a number of events that can be placed in sequential order. Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed. Why not give it a shot and see where it gets you?

The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.

While we wait for David to re-engage.......any LN please feel free to place the events in sequence.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 04:13:29 AM by Colin Crow »

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #210 on: September 20, 2019, 03:27:37 AM »

Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #211 on: September 20, 2019, 04:45:12 AM »
The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.

You left out a very important witness, didn't you? Howard Brennan.

Brennan sees the assassin firing a rifle at JFK from the 6th-floor sniper's window.
Brennan later identifies the assassin as being Lee Harvey Oswald.

Why did you completely omit Brennan, Colin? Doesn't he qualify as a witness in your mind at all?
(Curiously, you left Carolyn Arnold off your list too.)
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 04:50:56 AM by David Von Pein »

Offline Thomas Graves

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #212 on: September 20, 2019, 04:45:26 AM »
Of course the "times" used by various individuals are only estimations but there are a number of events that can be placed in sequential order. Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed. Why not give it a shot and see where it gets you?

The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.

While we wait for David to re-engage.......any LN please feel free to place the events in sequence.

But ... but ... but ... don't many Tinfoil Hat Conspiracy Theorists believe that some of those "witnesses" were part of the 1000-person assassination and/or cover-up job?

--  MWT   ;)

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #212 on: September 20, 2019, 04:45:26 AM »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #213 on: September 20, 2019, 04:52:33 AM »
From memory Mrs Reid had a phone conversation with her husband and he told her the motorcade was running late. He heard it on the radio.

I believe one of the workers (Frazier?) asked Shelley if the workers could break a few minutes early to watch the motorcade. The "elevator race" was before noon, the normal scheduled time for lunch. It seems consistent with them thinking the motorcade would pass shortly after noon.

Finally found this in an oral history with Gary Mack......

Gary: When did you first learn that President Kennedy was coming to town? And then the follow-up, of course, would be when did you first realize that he was going to come right by your building?

Buell: (0:40:15) Well, I think it was a day or two before… just hearing people talk. They said that President Kennedy was going to be coming to Dallas, but that didn’t…anything didn’t register on me about that because presidents, say, visit cities in America and cities in other countries. That’s a common… a pretty common thing for them. For one reason or another, they go there for business, whether it’s political, whether campaigning, or they’re trying to be a negotiator as a… in a peace-type situation, or whatever. A president of the United States traveling to different points in the world is very common, so him coming to Dallas, no. That didn’t mean anything particular to me.

Gary: How about some of your coworkers? Was…?

Buell: Well, the morning, Friday, November the 22nd, it was, I think, around break time, they found out that… that the presidential parade was going to be coming by the Texas School Book Depository, Houston and Elm Street. And a lot of the people was very excited about that. They says, “Gosh,” says, “we got a chance to see the president.” And as they were talking, then they realized that he may come by before lunch break or after lunch break, and there’s a possibility we wouldn’t get a chance to see the parade. So, someone had gone to Mr. Shelley and asked, “Are we going to get to see the presidential parade?” And there was a… I guess he checked with Mr. Truly, and Mr. Truly checked with his bosses who were up in… on the second floor. And they come back with the reply that, yes, we would stop and everyone could see the presidential parade. And so, we continued to work, and then at a certain time, we stopped and everyone got ready to watch the parade.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #214 on: September 20, 2019, 04:55:41 AM »
You left out a very important witness, didn't you? Howard Brennan.

Brennan sees the assassin firing a rifle at JFK from the 6th-floor sniper's window.
Brennan later identifies the assassin as being Lee Harvey Oswald.

Why did you completely omit Brennan, Colin? Doesn't he qualify as a witness in your mind at all?
(Curiously, you left Carolyn Arnold off your list too.)

Why did you leave this off my quote?

"Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed."

Let's add Brennan sighting someone in the SN and I did not add Carolyn Arnold because we don't have a definitive time (or corroboration) for her.

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #214 on: September 20, 2019, 04:55:41 AM »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #215 on: September 20, 2019, 05:00:08 AM »
Of course the "times" used by various individuals are only estimations but there are a number of events that can be placed in sequential order. Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed. Why not give it a shot and see where it gets you?

The "Elevator Race" - Oswald on 5th floor (most likely, possibly 6th)
Shelley sighting of Oswald on the first floor.
Piper sighting on the first floor.
Givens sighting of Oswald during the cigarette trip
Rowland sighting with man holding rifle (12.15pm)
Williams arriving on the fifth floor for lunch.
Williams departing the 6th floor and joining Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor.
Dougherty going to the 5th floor.
Dougherty taking the elevator to the first floor after the shots.
Oswald returning to the 6th floor after noticing Jarman and Norman (the "alibi")
Oswald leaving the 6th floor.
Oswald entering the lunchroom for his coke.
Oswald taking position in the SN prior to shooting.
Jarman and Norman leave front of TSBD to go up.
Jarman and Norman arrive at the 5th floor windows.
Brennan sighting someone in the SN.
Belknap having seizure.
Ambulance arriving in DP.

While we wait for David to re-engage.......any LN please feel free to place the events in sequence.


Added a few more at David's suggestion. This can be a living list. Have a go and see where it leads.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 05:01:33 AM by Colin Crow »

Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #216 on: September 20, 2019, 05:01:52 AM »
Why did you leave this off my quote?

"Here is a list off the top of my head. Probably some I have missed."

Let's add Brennan sighting someone in the SN and I did not add Carolyn Arnold because we don't have a definitive time (or corroboration) for her.

OK. Fair enough. Brennan is a pretty important witness for anybody to forget about, though. Wouldn't you agree?

I know that most CTers couldn't care less about Brennan positively IDing LHO as JFK's assassin (in Brennan's WC testimony). But he did it nevertheless.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 05:06:50 AM by David Von Pein »

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #216 on: September 20, 2019, 05:01:52 AM »

Offline David Von Pein

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #217 on: September 20, 2019, 05:08:25 AM »
You can also add:

Amos Euins sees someone (with "pipe") in 6th-floor Sniper's Nest.

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #217 on: September 20, 2019, 05:08:25 AM »

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #218 on: September 20, 2019, 05:19:56 AM »
Add Carolyn Walter, Ruby Henderson, and Johnny Powell all reporting that they saw two men on the 6th floor or an upper floor.

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #219 on: September 20, 2019, 05:21:41 AM »
OK. Fair enough. Brennan is a pretty important witness for anybody to forget about, though. Wouldn't you agree?

I know that most CTers couldn't care less about Brennan positively IDing LHO as JFK's assassin (in Brennan's WC testimony). But he did it nevertheless.

Waiting for your shot at the sequence.....only listing events up to 12.30pm.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 05:24:34 AM by Colin Crow »

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Re: The "Domino Room Alibi"
« Reply #219 on: September 20, 2019, 05:21:41 AM »

 

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