The Ed Forum is having a total Meltdown and chicken bones!

[Colin Crow]

I guess 12 years hasn't been long enough, eh? After all, his book's only been out since 2007.

I didn’t buy his book. When I saw the superficial treatment of the evidence available (like the dismissal of Mooney in the quote) I figured I didn’t miss much. Maybe he or his ghostwriters hadn’t bothered to analyse all the available information about the chicken lunch by 2007.

[Denis Pointing]

According to Day they did not match Oswald's so he threw them away some time after. One might question that the evening of the assassination why the bottle and lunch sack were not sent to the FBI via Vince Drain as crime scene evidence. Even if they had excluded Oswald's prints by that time how were they to know he did not have an accomplice who used his rifle or was a spotter for him shooting?

Hi Colin, there would have been literally dozens of fingerprints on the bottle and sack. The factory workers where the items were made, workers who packed them, delivery drivers taking them to the stores, the storekeeper etc etc. In this instance, the only value prints would have had was if you trying to prove someone, already suspected of being near the crime scene, was actually there ie Oswald. Once his fingerprints were eliminated the items would have been useless. Saying that, I would agree that in such an important investagation all evidence should have been wrapped n saved.

[Colin Crow]

Hi Colin, there would have been literally dozens of fingerprints on the bottle and sack. The factory workers where the items were made, workers who packed them, delivery drivers taking them to the stores, the storekeeper etc etc. In this instance, the only value prints would have had was if you trying to prove someone, already suspected of being near the crime scene, was actually there ie Oswald. Once his fingerprints were eliminated the items would have been useless. Saying that, I would agree that in such an important investagation all evidence should have been wrapped n saved.

Denis, I take your point, but suppose Oswald admitted bringing in the rifle but claimed Jack Dougherty bought it from him that morning. Just a hypothetical so bear with me. If the rifle was wiped of prints, don’t you think the bottle and lunch sack should have been given to the FBI that night? They would be useful in placing him in the SN.

[Richard Smith]

There is some heavy truth from Bugs here:  "I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued."

This chicken story goes on and on as a I recall like the endless compulsion driven prayer man discussion.  I give Colin lots of credit for analyzing the evidence (unlike most CTers).  But what ultimately is being suggested?  That Williams was on the 6th floor and Oswald and/or the fantasy conspirators came along with a gun and shooed him away?  Trusting Williams to not raise an alarm before the assassination and forever remain silent afterward?  And Williams never mentions this to anyone even after JFK is assassinated.  That is ludicrous.  The witness testimony is not always precise and often uses language that can be interpreted in many different ways.  The floor was full of boxes and windows.  I seem to recall some instances in which the witnesses and questioner even appear confused about which bag is being discussed (i.e. lunch or rifle bag).  Bottom line:  there is perfectly good explanation for the lunch as confirmed by Williams.  He has no obvious reason to lie.  Nor did he ever indicated that he saw the assassin on that floor.

[Colin Crow]

There is some heavy truth from Bugs here:  "I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued."

This chicken story goes on and on as a I recall like the endless compulsion driven prayer man discussion.  I give Colin lots of credit for analyzing the evidence (unlike most CTers).  But what ultimately is being suggested?  That Williams was on the 6th floor and Oswald and/or the fantasy conspirators came along with a gun and shooed him away?  Trusting Williams to not raise an alarm before the assassination and forever remain silent afterward?  And Williams never mentions this to anyone even after JFK is assassinated.  That is ludicrous.  The witness testimony is not always precise and often uses language that can be interpreted in many different ways.  The floor was full of boxes and windows.  I seem to recall some instances in which the witnesses and questioner even appear confused about which bag is being discussed (i.e. lunch or rifle bag).  Bottom line:  there is perfectly good explanation for the lunch as confirmed by Williams.  He has no obvious reason to lie.  Nor did he ever indicated that he saw the assassin on that floor.

As I have stated previously Williams had every reason to be fearful after the shooting. The authorities and media were reporting the assassin had a chicken lunch while waiting to shoot the President. It was his! His prints would be all over it. Rowland saw him in the SN minutes before the shots. At that time he had no idea there would be a photo that exonerated him. Without that his only alibi would have to be provided by Jarman and Norman.

Put yourself in his shoes.....with what he knew at that point in time.

[Denis Pointing]

There is some heavy truth from Bugs here:  "I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued."

This chicken story goes on and on as a I recall like the endless compulsion driven prayer man discussion.  I give Colin lots of credit for analyzing the evidence (unlike most CTers).  But what ultimately is being suggested?  That Williams was on the 6th floor and Oswald and/or the fantasy conspirators came along with a gun and shooed him away?  Trusting Williams to not raise an alarm before the assassination and forever remain silent afterward?  And Williams never mentions this to anyone even after JFK is assassinated.  That is ludicrous.  The witness testimony is not always precise and often uses language that can be interpreted in many different ways.  The floor was full of boxes and windows.  I seem to recall some instances in which the witnesses and questioner even appear confused about which bag is being discussed (i.e. lunch or rifle bag).  Bottom line:  there is perfectly good explanation for the lunch as confirmed by Williams.  He has no obvious reason to lie.  Nor did he ever indicated that he saw the assassin on that floor.

Yes, I agree Richard, kudos to Colin, he raises some interesting points but a great deal of the points (especially pray man) many CT's raise does seem petty and quite irrelevant. As I've said in the past these murders, let's not forget Tippit, have had more investigation than any other murders in history! Many hundreds, perhaps thousands, of both amateur and professionals have picked over the evidence repeatedly, far more thoroughly than the WC could have ever done, for decades and still what evidence there is points directly to Oswald and Oswald alone.

[Colin Crow]

There is some heavy truth from Bugs here:  "I wish the theorists would tell us the relevance of the many inconsistencies they cite in the Kennedy case instead of feeling that the inconsistencies are an end in themselves and nothing else has to be shown or argued."

This chicken story goes on and on as a I recall like the endless compulsion driven prayer man discussion.  I give Colin lots of credit for analyzing the evidence (unlike most CTers).  But what ultimately is being suggested?  That Williams was on the 6th floor and Oswald and/or the fantasy conspirators came along with a gun and shooed him away?  Trusting Williams to not raise an alarm before the assassination and forever remain silent afterward?  And Williams never mentions this to anyone even after JFK is assassinated.  That is ludicrous.  The witness testimony is not always precise and often uses language that can be interpreted in many different ways.  The floor was full of boxes and windows.  I seem to recall some instances in which the witnesses and questioner even appear confused about which bag is being discussed (i.e. lunch or rifle bag).  Bottom line:  there is perfectly good explanation for the lunch as confirmed by Williams.  He has no obvious reason to lie.  Nor did he ever indicated that he saw the assassin on that floor.

Quite simply the complied evidence suggest the sequence of events on the 6th floor as suggested in the WR in the half hour before the shots is simply bogus. What we do know is that there was a man in the SW corner with a rifle at about 12.15.pm. At around that time and for some minutes afterwards BRW was in the SN as evidenced by his lunch remnants being discovered there by Mooney (and others) and the independent observation of him there by Arnold.

He vacated the 6th floor and joined Jarman and Norman on the 5th floor around 12.25pm. All three men at various times after the events, up until their WC testimony, deceived the authorities regarding Williams movements prior to the shots. These facts are indisputable as shown by the numerous official documents I have previously provided.

[Richard Smith]

As I have stated previously Williams had every reason to be fearful after the shooting. The authorities and media were reporting the assassin had a chicken lunch while waiting to shoot the President. It was his! His prints would be all over it. Rowland saw him in the SN minutes before the shots. At that time he had no idea there would be a photo that exonerated him. Without that his only alibi would have to be provided by Jarman and Norman.

Put yourself in his shoes.....with what he knew at that point in time.

You can understand how wildly implausible it is to suggest that the assassin/conspirators simply let Williams leave the floor and trusted that he would not raise an alarm beforehand and remain silent forever afterward?  Fear of being implicated as the assassin is not persuasive.  Williams has an airtight alibi in the presence of two other people.  There is a photo that exonerates him.  Even if he wasn't aware of the photo at the time, he certainly became aware of it.  He has no realistic reason for him to be concerned that he would ever be deemed a suspect.  It just doesn't add up as plausible excuse for his silence.  Nor would the conspirators have relied on that given the stakes and their obvious willingness to commit murder.  A more plausible narrative in that context is that Williams would have been detained on the floor until after the assassination, at which time he would have been killed with Oswald's rifle.  The story would be that Williams had lunch on the floor and was killed by Oswald during his escape.  A win-win for the fantasy conspirators as it further implicates Oswald and eliminates a witness.  The very last thing they would have done is allow a witness to exit the floor and risk exposing or thwarting the plot.