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Author Topic: Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #215  (Read 228 times)

Offline Rob Caprio

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Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #215
« on: June 01, 2018, 11:22:46 PM »
📥 "Whether you agree with him or not, researchers such as Rob Caprio for example, took the sensible initiative and saved his own research, and he is now reposting them back on the Forum.
All other members are free to do the same.” –Duncan MacRae

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Disclaimer: I will no longer respond to any posts that are off topic and/or meant to derail the issue of the opening post. This should not be taken as me running, but instead seen as me keeping the topic on track.

I have no issue with any WC defender, therefore, I am happy to discuss the case in a manner that uses the actual evidence with them. IF the WC was correct in their final conclusion as they claim then this should be no problem for them.

I will not participate in any personal discussions with them as these are meant to distract and discredit instead of focusing on the JFK assassination. I come here to discuss and learn about the JFK assassination and nothing more.

No more games with the LNers. The LNers have to to discuss the WC's, HSCA's and ARRB's evidence or move along.

One would think IF the assassination occurred as the WC said then the LNers would welcome the opportunity to discuss and refute the posts in this series, but they seem more determined to have the posts stopped. I think that this shows that the WC's version of events is not correct.

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The Warren Commission (WC) said the Presidential limousine did not come to a stop or slow to a near stop during the shooting of President John F. Kennedy (JFK). They used the testimony of the driver of the limousine Secret Service (SS) Agent William Greer for the basis of this claim. This post will look at this issue in greater detail as many witnesses said the limousine either stopped or came to a near stop during the shooting sequence.

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As we saw in #178 (William Greer) the driver of the limousine testified before the WC about his experiences that day. The first thing of interest is the denial that he used any brakes during the shooting sequence, but as we saw in #178 this would be impossible since the road they were on (Elm Street) had a down grade to it!

Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?

Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at that point--whether it was level, hilly, or what.

Mr. GREER. It was starting to go down--gradually going down toward this underpass. It was a down grade.

Without him applying the brakes one would expect the limousine to pick up speed, but according to the WC it did not. They said this about the speed of the limousine at the time of the shooting.

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A more precise determination has been made from motion pictures taken on the scene by an amateur photographer, Abraham Zapruder. Based on these films, the speed of the President’s automobile is computed at an average 11.2 miles per hour. The car MAINTAINED this average speed over a distance of approximately 136 feet immediately preceding the shot which struck the President in the head. (WCR, p. 49) (Emphasis added)

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This means the limousine traveled 136 feet on a road that had a DOWN GRADE to it, but we are too believe the driver maintained the same speed without using the brakes? Please. Why would the driver NOT want to be going faster than 11.2 mph anyway? That seems very slow for an open area with very few people in it to see the President.

This testimony by Greer was disputed by many other peoples’ testimony. In fact, there is much more evidence for a stop or near stop in the twenty-six volumes than for Greer’s claim (the one the WC went with).

Dallas Police Officer Earle Brown said this in this WC testimony.


Mr. BALL. Did you see the President's motorcade come on to Houston Street from Elm; were you able to see that?

Mr. BROWN. Now they came down Main, didn't they, to Houston?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. BROWN. No. sir; actually, the first I noticed the car was when it stopped.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. BROWN. After it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped.

Mr. BALL. Did it come to a complete stop?

Mr. BROWN. That, I couldn't swear to.

Mr. BALL. It appeared to be slowed down some?

Mr. BROWN. Yes; slowed down. (VI, p. 233)

Ball was quick to get him to amend his comment to “it appeared to slow down” instead of it stopped, but that does NOT help the WC anyway as they claimed the limousine MAINTAINED A 11.2 mph speed. Something doesn’t add up here.

We have seen the next witness’s comments in #106 as Dallas Police Officer Bobby Hargis said this about the limousine.


Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going." (VI, p. 294)

He too commented on the limousine slowing down in conjunction with the head shot. The next witness is also a Dallas Police Officer named D.V. Harkness. He said this before the WC about the limousine during the shooting sequence.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do?

Mr. HARKNESS - When I saw the first shot and the President's car slow down to almost a stop----

Mr. BELIN - When you saw the first shot, what do you mean by that?

Mr. HARKNESS - When I heard the first shot and saw the President's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents piling off the car, I went back to the intersection to get my motorcycle. (VI, p. 309)

He too said the limousine came to a near stop after the first shot. Isn’t this the EXACT OPPOSITE of what Greer should have done? Another Dallas Police Officer who was riding near the limousine, James Chaney, told others about the behavior of the limousine at the time of the shots. He told fellow Police Officer Marrion Baker what he saw and Baker told the WC.

Mr. BELIN - What other officers did you talk to and what did they say that you remember?

Mr. BAKER - I talked to Jim Chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit Kennedy first and then the other one hit the Governor.

Mr. BELIN - Where was he?

Mr. BAKER - He was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped.

Mr. BELIN - The President's car?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir. Now, I have heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely.

Mr. DULLES - You saw it stop, did you?

Mr. BAKER - No, sir; I didn't see it stop.

Mr. DULLES - You just heard from others that it had stopped?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a moment there, and then they rushed on out to Parkland. (III, p. 266)

Chaney’s account would be repeated before the WC by Mark Lane too.

Mr. LANE. … Now, Patrolman Chaney, who I made reference to a little earlier, the motorcycle patrolman, stated that the Presidential car stopped momentarily after the first shot. That statement was consistent with Miss Woodward's statement in the Dallas Morning News, that the automobile came to almost a complete halt after the first shot, and the statement of many other witnesses as well. (II, pp. 44-45)

The witnesses keep coming and they continue to be OFFICIAL type witnesses. Next up is SS Agent Samuel Kinney. He would state the following in his report.

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There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard. Agent Clinton Hill jumped from the follow-up car and dashed to the aid of the President and First Lady in the President's car. I saw one shot strike the President in the right side of the head. The President then fell to the seat to the left toward Mrs. Kennedy. At this time I stepped on the siren and gas pedal at the same time. Agent Greer driving the President's car did the same. (Commission Exhibit (CE) 1024, p. 731)

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Kinney clearly says he and Greer did NOT step on the gas until AFTER the head shot had hit. Why? Another SS Agent, John Ready, would also say the limousine slowed down.

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At about 12:30 p.m. I heard what sounded like fire crackers going off from my post on the right front running board. The President's car slowed, someone in the follow-up car stated he was shot, and I left to run to the President's car. (CE 1024, p. 750)

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Our next witness is also a SS Agent. His name is Thomas “Lem” Johns and he wrote this in his report.

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When the shots sounded, I was looking to the right and saw a man standing and then being thrown or hit to the ground, and this together with the shots made the situation appear dangerous to me. I estimate that the motorcade was going approximately 12 to 14 miles per hour at this time, and I jumped from the security car and started running for the Vice President's car. I felt that if there was danger due to the slow speed of the motorcade, I would be of more assistance and in a more proper location with the Vice President's car. Before I reached the Vice President's car a third shot had sounded and the entire motorcade then picked up speed and I was left on the street at this point. (CE 1024, p. 774)
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He says a couple of things in his report. Firstly, he comments on the slow speed of the motorcade and there was NO reason for this as Dealey Plaza (DP) was quite empty compared to the layers of people at other places in the motorcade. The motorcade was over by the time they turned onto to Elm Street for all intents and purposes, so why was Greer going so slow? Secondly, he mentions how the motorcade sped up once the shots were done! Why? Isn’t it better to save the life of the President with speed? I would think so, but we did NOT see that happening here.

Our next witness was the wife of the Dallas Mayor and she said was in the motorcade.


Mr. HUBERT. What did it seem like? An arm of an individual, or something mechanical?

Mrs. CABELL. I did not know, because I did not see a hand or a head or a human form behind it. It was in just a fleeting second that I jerked my head up and I saw something in that window, and I turned around to say to Earle, "Earle, it is a shot", and before I got the words out, just as I got the words out, he said, "Oh, no; it must have been a "the second two shots rang out. After that, there is a certain amount of confusion in my mind. I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. I was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. There was no question about that.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?

Mrs. CABELL. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, "That is a .30-06." I didn't know what a .30-06 was.

Twice she said the motorcade was stopped. Why is that? Our next witness has been highlighted in other posts in this series—Phillip Willis.

Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any other questions about these pictures, unless you can think of something else that you think I should have asked you about, that I have forgotten about.

Mr. WILLIS. In slide No. 6, people were still on the ground and I took that picture, knowing that the party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass, and I have an arrow there which shows the back of the Secret Service agent climbing onto the back of the presidential car.

It is common sense the limousine came to a stop or a near stop otherwise how did Clint Hill catch up to it? Our last witness for this post will be the Governor’s wife Nellie Connally. She said this before the WC.

Mrs. CONNALLY. … The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

I thought John had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when I started saying to him, "It's all right. Be still."

Now, I did hear the Secret Service man say, "Pull out of the motorcade. Take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital.

Why did the SS Agent, Kellerman, NOT give this order before JFK was already dead? And why did Greer need this kind of order to do what he was trained to do?

We will continue to look at the rest of the witnesses later in another post, but suffice it to say, we already see the WC’s conclusion is sunk by their OWN evidence in the twenty-six volumes.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 12:29:12 AM by Rob Caprio »

JFK Assassination Forum

Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #215
« on: June 01, 2018, 11:22:46 PM »


Offline Mike Orr

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Re: Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #215
« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2018, 12:06:45 AM »
    Rob , this is some very good info . I learn so much from your WC's Conclusions and #215 is right up there with some of your best !  Thanks Rob ! There were more than a few people who noticed that the Limo came to halt . Those who are stuck on the Zapruder film being the tell-all of the Assassination plus the Autopsy are so sure that what they are looking at , is the real deal .

Offline Rob Caprio

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Re: Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #215
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2018, 12:27:06 AM »
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    Rob , this is some very good info . I learn so much from your WC's Conclusions and #215 is right up there with some of your best !  Thanks Rob ! There were more than a few people who noticed that the Limo came to halt . Those who are stuck on the Zapruder film being the tell-all of the Assassination plus the Autopsy are so sure that what they are looking at , is the real deal .

Thanks Mike. Stay tuned because there is more to come on this topic. I wish that I could post them all at once, but it is not permitted.

Online John Iacoletti

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Re: Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #215
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2018, 09:27:01 PM »
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As we saw in #178 (William Greer) the driver of the limousine testified before the WC about his experiences that day. The first thing of interest is the denial that he used any brakes during the shooting sequence, but as we saw in #178 this would be impossible since the road they were on (Elm Street) had a down grade to it!

Two questions:

1. Did the car have a manual transmission?

2. Was it in gear?

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions -- #215
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2018, 09:27:01 PM »