JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Thomas Graves on December 08, 2018, 05:50:03 PM
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Subtitle: "Stirring The Hornets' Nest"
.........
Before I start listing some of that circumstantial evidence here, I'm gonna start another thread that will answer the question I can hear y'all mumblin' to yourselves right about now --
"What Would Khrushchev Have Possibly Gained By The Death Of JFK That Would Be Worth The Risk Of U.S. Retaliation?"
Perhaps you should read that one, first?
(Just a suggestion)
-- Tommy :)
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When Khrushchev challenged JFK in Berlin and then in Cuba it was a gradual challenge which gave diplomacy and negotiations time to cool things. Killing POTUS was an instant game changer. Whatever can be said of Khrushchev I don't believe he was suicidal.
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When Khrushchev challenged JFK in Berlin and then in Cuba it was a gradual challenge which gave diplomacy and negotiations time to cool things. Killing POTUS was an instant game changer. Whatever can be said of Khrushchev I don't believe he was suicidal.
Oscar,
Suicidal?
LOL
Have you read what I posted on my other thread, What Would Nikita Khrushchev Have Possibly Gained That Would Be Worth Risk Of U.S. Retaliation?
Why don't you "give it a whirl," and then try to rebut the points Riebling and Deryabin make, if you can?
-- Tommy :)
PS Yeah, I know -- Khrushchev was removed from power on October 14, 1964. But hey! He couldn't have known he'd
be removed so soon, and maybe he would have been removed even sooner than that if he (and Castro?) hadn't killed JFK. If they killed JFK, that is.
-
Subtitle: "Stirring The Hornets' Nest"
..........
Before I start listing some of that circumstantial evidence here, I'm gonna start another thread that will answer the question I can hear y'all mumblin' to yourselves right about now --
"What Would Khrushchev Have Possibly Gained By The Death Of JFK That Would Be Worth Rhe Risk Of U.S. Retaliation?"
Perhaps you should read that one, first?
(Just a suggestion)
-- Tommy :)
...........................
Okay, off the top of my head and in no particular order, here's a partial list (which I reserve the right to edit and / or augment, later).
1) In the Kremlin, a few minutes after Oswald had been arrested in Dallas (about 2.5 hours after the assassination), undercover FBI operative Morris Childs, posing as an official of the Communist Party USA, and his Russian hosts were told about the arrest by functionaries who rushed into their meeting (and who just happened to speak perfect English so that Childs could understand), "volunteering" to Childs that the KGB had neither had anything to do with the assassination, nor had had any operational relationship with Oswald.
Question: How could the functionaries have been so sure of these things so soon after the assassination?
...https://www-nationalreview-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nationalreview.com/2007/10/lucky-stars-ion-mihai-pacepa/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHCAFYAYABAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalreview.com%2F2007%2F10%2Flucky-stars-ion-mihai-pacepa%2F
...
2) Along the same lines, six months after the assassination and before the Warren Commission Report had come out, Khrushchev seemed to go out of his way at a party in Cairo, Egypt, to give newspaper columnist Drew Pearson the impression that he didn't believe Oswald and Ruby had acted alone, but that Kennedy (and Oswald) had been killed by a Right-Wing conspiracy.
3) According to a recently released FBI document, in April 1967, (loyal-to-the-Kremlin triple-agent) Boris Ohrekov, FBI's "Shamrock", "informed" the bureau that the KGB had undertaken a lengthy investigation of the assassination right after it happened, and had concluded that JFK had been killed by "representatives of a group of monopolists, characterized as the military-industrial complex in America." For what it's worth, the document notes that "Shamrock's" information is very similar to that already given the FBI by (false) defector, Yuri Nosenko, "whose bona fides has not been established".
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=12653&relPageId=2&search=Shamrock
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4) I've recently shown that just seven weeks before the assassination, a Mexico City Soviet Embassy employee, Ivan Obyedkov, whom CIA thought it had successfully "doubled" but was in reality still loyal to the Kremlin, effectively planted a Kremlin-protecting "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file when he volunteered the radioactive name "Kostikov" to Oswald (or more likely to a Russian impersonator of Oswald) over a Soviet Embassy phone line which he must have known was tapped by the CIA.
4. a. ) The only reason the above-mentioned name "Kostikov" was "radioactive" on October 1, 1963, was because J. Edgar Hoover's prized "double-agent" (in reality a Kremlin-loyal triple-agent), Aleksei Kulak (Fedora), had earlier fingered KGB "UN diplomat" Oleg Brykin as being in KGB's notorious "Department 13".
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4) Gilberto Policarpo Lopez
(Look him up.)
...
5) Miguel Casas Saez
(Look him up.)
...
6) The "passport-size photos" of Oswald that Sylvia Duran allegedly stapled to his Cuban visa application on October 27, 1963, were probably taken during Oswald's 2.5-year sojourn in Minsk, (Belarus), USSR, since he had similar photos of other people in his "Minsk Days" scrapbook. Regardless, one wonders how Duran could have dealt face-to-face with 5' 9.5", brown-haired, hazel/grey-eyed Oswald but described him over the years as being short (she was only 5' 3.5", herself), blond-haired, and blue-eyed. In other words, just like Mexico City "diplomat" (KGB colonel) Nikolai Leonov. (More about whom later.)
...
7) As alluded to above, Yuri Nosenko "defected" to the U.S. about six weeks after the assassination, and claimed to have been in a position to know for a fact that Oswald was so "crazy" and "dangerous-looking" in the USSR, that the KGB hadn't even bothered to interview the Marine Corps radar operator while he was living in the USSR.
Problem is, as Professor John M. Newman will attest, we now know that Nosenko was a false defector.
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8 ) Robert Oswald said his brother Lee's hair had thinned out significantly during his 2.5 years in the USSR, and speculated that Lee had been subjected to electro-shock therapy or drug-based programming by the KGB.
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9) Defector Ion Pacepa, former head of the Romanian "KGB", says that while Oswald was in the USSR he was trained / programmed to kill JFK, that Khrushchev got "cold feet" after Oswald returned to the U.S, and that Khrushchev was unable to call Oswald off the "mission".
Just thinking out loud here: Does this tie in with what Richard Russell writes in TMWKTM? I.e., is it possible that CIA officer Henry Hecksher (a possible candidate for Nagell's mysterious "Bob") a "mole" for the KGB?
...
10) Why did Cuban president Dorticos seem so anxious to find out whether or not Sylvia Duran had said anything to her Mexican interrogators about "money" (in the context of "Oswald's" meeting with her at the Cuban Consulate)?
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11) Why did the above-mentioned KGB "diplomat," Nikolai Leonov, claim in a 1990s National Enquirer article (and in a book written in the Russian language) that he had met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-packing Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, when Oswald allegedly showed up there unexpectedly before (or during) an embassy volleyball match?
To (foolishly over)-emphasize that Oswald was one dangerous and crazy dude, thereby "confirming" (false) defector Nosenko's claim that KGB hadn't even interviewed the "crazy, dangerous-looking" Marine Corps radar operator in the USSR, or was Leonov simply "verifying" that Oswald was sufficiently "crazy and dangerous" to assassinate an American President?
Are we to believe that Oswald got crazy and dangerous for Nichiporenko, Kostikov, and/or Yatskov on SATURDAY, September 27, and did the same darn thing for Leonov the very next day?
12) According to Richard Russell, CI/SIG analyst Edward Clare Petty told him around 1975 that he'd recently come upon some WW II Venona decrypts which suggested to him that Oswald's handler-like friend, George DeMohrenschildt, was a long-term KGB "illegal," having emigrated to the U.S. in 1938. (Which makes one wonder about DeMohrenschildt's mysterious older brother, Dimitri, who seems to have had high-level connections to the State Department and/or CIA.)
...
(More later)
...
-- Tommy :)
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"Circumstantial Evidence That Khrushchev and/or Castro Killed JFK"
Okay, off the top of my head and in no particular order, here's a partial list (which I reserve the right to edit and / or augment, later).
1) In the Kremlin, a few minutes after Oswald had been arrested in Dallas (about an hour-and-twenty-minutes after the assassination), undercover FBI operative Morris Childs, posing as an official of the Communist Party USA, and his Russian hosts were informed of Oswald's arrest by two Soviet functionaries who rushed into their meeting (and who just happened to speak near-perfect English to Childs), "volunteering" that the KGB had neither had anything to do with the assassination, nor had had any operational relationship with Oswald.
Question: How could the functionaries have been so sure of these things so soon after the assassination?
...https://www-nationalreview-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nationalreview.com/2007/10/lucky-stars-ion-mihai-pacepa/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHCAFYAYABAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalreview.com%2F2007%2F10%2Flucky-stars-ion-mihai-pacepa%2F
...
2) Along the same lines, six months after the assassination and before the Warren Commission Report had come out, Khrushchev seemed to go out of his way at a party in Cairo, Egypt, to give newspaper columnist Drew Pearson his "precious opinion" that he didn't believe Oswald and Ruby had acted alone, but that Kennedy (and Oswald) had been killed by a Right-Wing conspiracy.
...
3) According to a recently released FBI document, in April 1967, (triple-agent) Boris Ohrekov (FBI's "Shamrock") informed the Bureau that the KGB had undertaken a lengthy investigation of the assassination right after it happened, and had concluded that JFK had been killed by "representatives of a group of monopolists, characterized as the military-industrial complex in America."
For what it's worth, the document notes that "Shamrock's" information is "very similar" to that already given the FBI by defector Yuri Nosenko, "whose bona fides has not been established".
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=12653&relPageId=2&search=Shamrock
Of course, we now know that Nosenko was a false defector. (Just ask Professor John M. Newman, or read Tennent H. Bagley's book "Spy Wars".)
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n3
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4) As I've recently shown, seven weeks before the assassination, a Mexico City Soviet Embassy security guard, Ivan Obyedkov (note: Bill Simpich agrees with me that Obyedkov must have been the triple-agent referred to as "Byetkov*?" in James Angleton's June 19, 1975, Church Committee testimony), whom CIA thought it had successfully "doubled" but who in reality was still loyal to the Kremlin, effectively planted a Kremlin-protecting "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file by "volunteering" the radioactive name "Kostikov" to Oswald (or more likely to a Russian impersonator of Oswald) over a Soviet Embassy phone line which he must have known was tapped by the CIA.
The only reason the above-mentioned name was "radioactive" on October 1, 1963, was because J. Edgar Hoover's prized "double-agent" (in reality a Kremlin-loyal triple-agent), Aleksei Kulak (Fedora), had earlier fingered KGB "UN diplomat" Oleg Brykin as being in KGB's notorious "Department 13".
...
4) Gilberto Policarpo Lopez
(Look him up.)
...
5) Miguel Casas Saez
(Look him up.)
...
6) The "passport-size photos" of Oswald that Sylvia Duran allegedly stapled to his Cuban visa application on October 27, 1963, were probably taken during Oswald's 2.5-year sojourn in Minsk, (Belarus), USSR, since he had similar photos of other people in his "Minsk Days" scrapbook. Regardless, one wonders how Duran could have dealt face-to-face with 5' 9.5", brown-haired, hazel/grey-eyed Oswald but described him over the years as being short (she was only 5' 3.5", herself), blond-haired, and blue-eyed. In other words, just like Mexico City "diplomat" (KGB colonel) Nikolai Leonov. (More about whom later.)
...
7) As alluded to above, Yuri Nosenko "defected" to the U.S. about six weeks after the assassination, and claimed to have been in a position to know for a fact that Oswald was so "crazy" and "dangerous-looking" in the USSR, that the KGB hadn't even bothered to interview the Marine Corps radar operator while he was living in the USSR.
Problem is, as Professor John M. Newman will attest, we now know that Nosenko was a false defector.
...
8 ) Robert Oswald said his brother Lee's hair had thinned out significantly during his 2.5 years in the USSR, and speculated that Lee had been subjected to electro-shock therapy or drug-based programming by the KGB.
...
9) Defector Ion Pacepa, former head of the Romanian "KGB", says that while Oswald was in the USSR he was trained / programmed to kill JFK, that Khrushchev got "cold feet" after Oswald returned to the U.S, and that Khrushchev was unable to call Oswald off the "mission".
Just thinking out loud here: Does this tie in with what Richard Russell writes in TMWKTM? I.e., is it possible that CIA officer Henry Hecksher (a possible candidate for Nagell's mysterious "Bob") a "mole" for the KGB?
...
10) Why did Cuban president Dorticos seem so anxious to find out whether or not Sylvia Duran had said anything to her Mexican interrogators about "money" (in the context of "Oswald's" meeting with her at the Cuban Consulate)?
...
11) Why did the above-mentioned KGB "diplomat," Nikolai Leonov, claim in a 1990s National Enquirer article (and in a book written in the Russian language) that he had met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-packing Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, when Oswald allegedly showed up there unexpectedly before (or during) an embassy volleyball match?
To (foolishly over)-emphasize that Oswald was one dangerous and crazy dude, thereby "confirming" (false) defector Nosenko's claim that KGB hadn't even interviewed the "crazy, dangerous-looking" Marine Corps radar operator in the USSR, or was Leonov simply "verifying" that Oswald was sufficiently "crazy and dangerous" to assassinate an American President?
Are we to believe that Oswald got all crazy and dangerous for Nechiporenko, Kostikov, and/or Yatskov on SATURDAY, September 27, and did the same darn thing for Leonov the very next day?
...
12) According to Richard Russell, CI/SIG analyst Edward Clare Petty told him around 1975 that he'd recently come upon some WW II Venona decrypts which suggested to him that Oswald's handler-like friend, George DeMohrenschildt, was a long-term KGB "illegal," having emigrated to the U.S. in 1938. (Which makes one wonder about DeMohrenschildt's mysterious older brother, Dimitri, who seems to have had high-level connections to the State Department and/or CIA.)
12/12/18 EDIT:
Regarding GdM, himself, the following is from one of my posts at the dreaded Education Forum:
Edward Clare Petty told Richard Russell that there were some WW II Venona intercepts that indicated to Petty that GdM might have been a Ruskie spy.
"Clare Petty, a former official on Angleton's staff, told me that shortly before his CIA retirement in 1974, he was examining a potential de Mohrenschildt link to some Soviet cipher traffic first intercepted by American intelligence in World War II. Known as the VENONA material, 'it was only partially broken,' according to Petty, including lots of agent cryptonyms that we never found out to whom they applied. I had started to consider the possibility of whether a certain Soviet illegal might have been de Mohrenschildt. It was clear that whoever was being described in the codes had been in the United States, went to Mexico during he war, and was a real wheeler-dealer. He also had another nationality; my recollection is that it was Polish.'"
--The Man Who Knew Too Much, Dick Russell pp. 273
Okay, let's see. The KGB agent ...
1 ) Was from Poland, or some other northern Slavic country
2 ) Was in the U.S. before WW II
3 ) Went to Mexico during WW II
4 ) Was a real wheeler-dealer
Hmm ...
1 ) George "von" Mohrenschildt was born in Mazyr, Belarus, about 300 miles east of the Polish border
2 ) He immigrated to the U.S. in May, 1938.
3 ) He and his girlfriend, Lilia Larin, lived in Mexico for several months in 1942, and then returned to the U.S.
4 ) He was a wheeler-dealer. (Insurance Salesman, His Own Art Work, Sugar Speculator, Oil Speculator, Film Producer ...)
...
-- Tommy :)
I guess the points I've made above (especially when looked at all-together like this) have caused so much excruciating "cognitive dissonance" among the many traditional CTers ("the CIA and/or Dallas Police Department and/or the Secret Service and/or the Mafia and/or The Far-Right killed JFK") here, and the (probably) few LNers here, too, that nobody has the audacity to try to rebut any of them.
Pity that.
LOL
-- Tommy :)
PS In my book, "BUT, BUT, BUT ... WHAT ABOUT ...?" doesn't count as a valid rebuttal, so if that's all you've got, please "save your breath".
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...........................
Okay, off the top of my head and in no particular order, here's a partial list of "circumstancial evidence" which suggests that Khruschev and/or Castro killed JFK.
1) In the Kremlin, a few minutes after Oswald had been arrested in Dallas (about 2.5 hours after the assassination), undercover FBI operative Morris Childs, posing as an official of the Communist Party USA, and his Russian hosts were told about the arrest by functionaries who rushed into their meeting (and who just happened to speak perfect English so that Childs could understand), "volunteering" to Childs that the KGB had neither had anything to do with the assassination, nor had had any operational relationship with Oswald.
Question: How could the functionaries have been so sure of these things so soon after the assassination?
...https://www-nationalreview-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.nationalreview.com/2007/10/lucky-stars-ion-mihai-pacepa/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQHCAFYAYABAQ%3D%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationalreview.com%2F2007%2F10%2Flucky-stars-ion-mihai-pacepa%2F
...
2) Along the same line, six months after the assassination and before the Warren Commission Report had come out, Khrushchev seemed to go out of his way at a party in Cairo, Egypt, to give newspaper columnist Drew Pearson the impression that he didn't believe Oswald and Ruby had acted alone, but that Kennedy (and Oswald) had been killed by an American Right-Wing conspiracy.
3) According to a recently released FBI document, in April 1967, (loyal-to-the-Kremlin triple-agent) Boris Ohrekov, FBI's "Shamrock", "informed" the bureau that the KGB had undertaken a lengthy investigation of the assassination right after it happened, and had concluded that JFK had been killed by "representatives of a group of monopolists, characterized as the military-industrial complex in America." For what it's worth, the document notes that "Shamrock's" information is very similar to that already given the FBI by (false) defector, Yuri Nosenko, "whose bona fides has not been established".
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=12653&relPageId=2&search=Shamrock
...
4) I've recently shown that just seven weeks before the assassination, a Mexico City Soviet Embassy employee, Ivan Obyedkov, whom CIA thought it had successfully "doubled" but was in reality still loyal to the Kremlin, effectively planted a Kremlin-protecting "WW III virus" in Oswald's CIA file when he volunteered the radioactive name "Kostikov" to Oswald (or more likely to a Russian impersonator of Oswald) over a Soviet Embassy phone line which he must have known was tapped by the CIA.
4. a. ) The only reason the above-mentioned name "Kostikov" was "radioactive" on October 1, 1963, was because J. Edgar Hoover's prized "double-agent" (in reality a Kremlin-loyal triple-agent), Aleksei Kulak (Fedora), had earlier fingered KGB "UN diplomat" Oleg Brykin as being in KGB's notorious "Department 13".
...
4) Gilberto Policarpo Lopez
(Look him up.)
...
5) Miguel Casas Saez
(Look him up.)
...
6) The "passport-size photos" of Oswald that Sylvia Duran allegedly stapled to his Cuban visa application on October 27, 1963, were probably taken during Oswald's 2.5-year sojourn in Minsk, (Belarus), USSR, since he had similar photos of other people in his "Minsk Days" scrapbook. Regardless, one wonders how Duran could have dealt face-to-face with 5' 9.5", brown-haired, hazel/grey-eyed Oswald but described him over the years as being short (she was only 5' 3.5", herself), blond-haired, and blue-eyed. In other words, just like Mexico City "diplomat" (KGB colonel) Nikolai Leonov. (More about whom later.)
...
7) As alluded to above, Yuri Nosenko "defected" to the U.S. about six weeks after the assassination, and claimed to have been in a position to know for a fact that Oswald was so "crazy" and "dangerous-looking" in the USSR, that the KGB hadn't even bothered to interview the Marine Corps radar operator while he was living in the USSR.
Problem is, as Professor John M. Newman will attest, we now know that Nosenko was a false defector.
...
8 ) Robert Oswald said his brother Lee's hair had thinned out significantly during his 2.5 years in the USSR, and speculated that Lee had been subjected to electro-shock therapy or drug-based programming by the KGB.
...
9) Defector Ion Pacepa, former head of the Romanian "KGB", says that while Oswald was in the USSR he was trained / programmed to kill JFK, that Khrushchev got "cold feet" after Oswald returned to the U.S, and that Khrushchev was unable to call Oswald off the "mission".
Just thinking out loud here: Does this tie in with what Richard Russell writes in TMWKTM? I.e., is it possible that CIA officer Henry Hecksher (a possible candidate for Nagell's mysterious "Bob") a "mole" for the KGB?
...
10) Why did Cuban president Dorticos seem so anxious to find out whether or not Sylvia Duran had said anything to her Mexican interrogators about "money" (in the context of "Oswald's" meeting with her at the Cuban Consulate)?
...
11) Why did the above-mentioned KGB "diplomat," Nikolai Leonov, claim in a 1990s National Enquirer article (and in a book written in the Russian language) that he had met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-packing Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on SUNDAY, SEPTEMBER 29, when Oswald allegedly showed up there unexpectedly before an embassy volleyball match?
Did Leonov do this to (foolishly over)-emphasize that Oswald was one dangerous and crazy dude, fully capable of assassinating an American president all by himself, thereby "confirming" (false) defector Yuri Nosenko's claim that KGB hadn't even interviewed the "crazy, dangerous-looking" Marine Corps radar operator in the USSR?
Are we to believe that Oswald got all crazy and dangerous for Nechiporenko, Kostikov, and/or Yatskov on SATURDAY, September 27, and did the same darn thing for Leonov the very next day?
12) According to Richard Russell, CI/SIG analyst Edward Clare Petty told him around 1975 that he'd recejntly come upon some WW II Venona decrypts which suggested to him that Oswald's handler-like friend, George DeMohrenschildt, was a long-term KGB "illegal," having emigrated to the U.S. in 1938. (Which makes one wonder about DeMohrenschildt's mysterious older brother, Dimitri, who seems to have had high-level connections to the State Department and/or CIA.)
...
(More later)
...
-- Tommy :)
Slightly edited and bumped for all of you KGB/GRU and DGI lovers / CIA-haters out there. (LOL)
-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy :)
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Have you seen my other thread,
"What Would Khrushchev Have Possibly Gained By The Death Of JFK That Would Be Worth The Risk Of U.S. Retaliation?"?
Perhaps you should read that one, first?
(Just a suggestion)
-- Tommy :)
.....
Bumping this thread, and adding the observation that back in 1941, probable NKVD "illegal" George DeMohrenschildt had a draft card that said he was "4-F" and told the FBI that it was because he had a "heart ailment," but also told the FBI that he was working in the oilfields of Louisiana as a roughneck.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=146024#relPageId=5&tab=page
-- MWT ;)
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I just posted this on another thread so posting it here as well. There's only so many ways to skin a cat...
The Russkies didn't do it. Tom Graves conveniently leaves out many other factors in the case where it'd be nearly impossible or a million in one chance of the murder taking place with the Russkies involved. He simply bears down - and bears down hard - on one little episode in October in Mexico City, and then transposes that to the entire assassination. If you think about it, it's really quite funny.
And see his previous replies here. Because someone disagrees with him about his Russkies theory, he then changes tactics and says spombleprofglidnoctobuns like "You must love Oliver Stone" or "You must love Putin." Before it was deleted, Graves posted a Despise List, which was quite revealing at the time. Put another way, his investigative acumen here is terribly biased. Yet, he uses that same tactic ("You must love...") as a defense of his theory. Ridiculous.
Also, some of my posts have been deleted as well so don't feel too bad. I asked the admin about this. I basically said it's not my fault that there are crazies on this board that need a non-crazy reply to their posts.
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.....
Walton,
If by the "one little episode in Mexico City" you mean the volunteering, to an Oswald impersonator over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phoneline, the made-radioactive-by-KGB name "Kostikov" by KGB triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov, then you evidently don't understand John Newman's concept of a "World War III Virus" in Oswald's CIA file, and how it was used by evil, evil, evil James Jesus Angleton to force a FBI and Warren Commission coverup of his traitorous actions in masterminding the assassination of JFK.
Or were you referring to short, blond, very thin-faced KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov's providing the Mexico City Cuban Consulate with a passport-sized photo of Oswald that was taken in the USSR?
Or perhaps you were referring to Leonov's claim in 1993 that he had met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-brandishing Oswald at the Soviet Embassy (not Consulate) on Sunday, September 29, 1963?
Could you please be a little more specific?
-- MWT ;)
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Walton,
If by the "one little episode in Mexico City" you mean the volunteering, to an Oswald impersonator over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phoneline, the made-radioactive-by-KGB name "Kostikov" by KGB triple-agent Ivan Obyedkov, then you evidently don't understand John Newman's concept of a "World War III Virus" in Oswald's CIA file, and how it was used by evil, evil, evil James Jesus Angleton to force a FBI and Warren Commission coverup of his traitorous actions in masterminding the assassination of JFK.
Or were you referring to short, blond, very thin-faced KGB colonel Nikolai Leonov's providing the Mexico City Cuban Consulate with a passport-sized photo of Oswald that was taken in the USSR?
Or perhaps you were referring to Leonov's claim in 1993 that he had met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-brandishing Oswald at the Soviet Embassy (not Consulate) on Sunday, September 29, 1963?
Could you please be a little more specific?
-- MWT ;)
Actually, Tommy, you are misunderstanding the implication of Dr. Newman’s WW3 virus theory; a theory to-which (with immense respect to Dr. Newman) I do not ascribe.
Newman’s WW3 Virus theory says that, rather than flying under the radar, undetected, there was evidence in Oswald’s 201 file that there was an obvious, “Keene interest” (Jane Roman’s words) before his activities in Mexico City, going back to CIA responses to inquiries 6 weeks prior to the Assassination. This information, popping-up after the assassination, was the virus. It showed that that the CIA was handling Oswald at the time.
In my view, and where I depart from Dr. Newman, is that this was meant to force Angleton into moving-forward with the cover-up, protecting the CIA. This is all that was necessary to control Angleton. Angleton did not know of the plot.
The plotters thought that the “evidence” for Oswald’s collusion with Castro, or acting in support if him, would force an invasion.
As it turned-out, there was little desire, among the powerful stake-holders (Texas oilmen and industrialists) to “free” a bunch of Catholic, Spanish speaking, historically mob-affiliated Caribbean islanders, who would compete with American trade and tourism interests; Vegas would do, and be more controllable.
Of course, if things got out of control, and a real distraction from a domestic coup de ta was necessary, that same MC “evidence” could be used to foment a war, stifle a real investigation and garner the patriotic support of the masses through the Mockingbird network.
Angleton, by design, was cought off-guard, his back placed against a wall, and made silent, when Oswald was arrested for the JFKA.
.... edited to reflect the following quote from “What Jane Roman said”.
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/WhatJaneRomanSaid/WhatJaneRomanSaid_3.htm
“Roman understood his point and finally conceded it: “Yeah, I mean I’m signing off on something that I know isn’t true.”
I’m signing off on something that I know isn’t true.
This was doubly interesting. Roman was not only acknowledging not only was somebody in SAS interested in Oswald six weeks before Kennedy was killed. She was stating that whoever that somebody was made an affirmative decision to withhold information about him from other CIA officers before November 22, 1963.
Newman did not dwell on the point. He did not imply that Roman was involved in anything sinister. She was merely saying that she participated in drafting a cable in which the men higher up in the clandestine operations division chose not to tell the whole truth—something that was in the nature of their jobs.
Responsibility for the cable on Oswald, Roman said, belonged to the most senior officer who signed it, Tom Karamessines.
.................
Newman wanted to know how Roman, with the benefit of hindsight, interpreted the contents of the cable about Lee Harvey Oswald that Tom Karamessines’ signed and sent to Mexico City late on the night of October 10, 1963.
“What does this tell you about this file, that somebody would write something they knew wasn’t true?” he asked.
“And I’m not saying that it has to be considered sinister, don’t misunderstand me,” Newman added. “It is one thing if I don’t say anything, I tell you ‘You don’t have a need to know.’ But if I tell you something that I know isn’t true, that’s an action [that] I’m taking for some reason. … I guess what I’m trying to push you to address square on here is, is this indicative of some sort of operational interest in Oswald’s file?”
This was the key question of the interview and Roman took it head on.
“Yes,” she replied. “To me its indicative of a keen interest in Oswald held very closely on the need to know basis.”
-
Actually, Tommy, you are misunderstanding the implication of Dr. Newman’s WW3 virus theory; a theory to-which (with immense respect to Dr. Newman) I do not ascribe.
Newman’s WW3 Virus theory says that, rather than flying under the radar, undetected, there was evidence in Oswald’s 201 file that there was an obvious, “Keene interest” (Jane Roman’s words) before his activities in Mexico City, going back to CIA responses to inquiries 6 weeks prior to the Assassination. This information, popping-up after the assassination, was the virus. It showed that that the CIA was handling Oswald at the time.
In my view, and where I depart from Dr. Newman, is that this was meant to force Angleton into moving-forward with the cover-up, protecting the CIA. This is all that was necessary to control Angleton. Angleton did not know of the plot.
The plotters thought that the “evidence” for Oswald’s collusion with Castro, or acting in support if him, would force an invasion.
As it turned-out, there was little desire, among the powerful stake-holders (Texas oilmen and industrialists) to “free” a bunch of Catholic, Spanish speaking, historically mob-affiliated Caribbean islanders, who would compete with American trade and tourism interests; Vegas would do, and be more controllable.
Of course, if things got out of control, and a real distraction from a domestic coup de ta was necessary, that same MC “evidence” could be used to foment a war, stifle a real investigation and garner the patriotic support of the masses through the Mockingbird network.
Angleton, by design, was cought off-guard, his back placed against a wall, and made silent, when Oswald was arrested for the JFKA.
.... edited to reflect the following quote from “What Jane Roman said”.
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/WhatJaneRomanSaid/WhatJaneRomanSaid_3.htm
“Roman understood his point and finally conceded it: “Yeah, I mean I’m signing off on something that I know isn’t true.”
I’m signing off on something that I know isn’t true.
This was doubly interesting. Roman was not only acknowledging not only was somebody in SAS interested in Oswald six weeks before Kennedy was killed. She was stating that whoever that somebody was made an affirmative decision to withhold information about him from other CIA officers before November 22, 1963.
Newman did not dwell on the point. He did not imply that Roman was involved in anything sinister. She was merely saying that she participated in drafting a cable in which the men higher up in the clandestine operations division chose not to tell the whole truth—something that was in the nature of their jobs.
Responsibility for the cable on Oswald, Roman said, belonged to the most senior officer who signed it, Tom Karamessines.
.................
Newman wanted to know how Roman, with the benefit of hindsight, interpreted the contents of the cable about Lee Harvey Oswald that Tom Karamessines’ signed and sent to Mexico City late on the night of October 10, 1963.
“What does this tell you about this file, that somebody would write something they knew wasn’t true?” he asked.
“And I’m not saying that it has to be considered sinister, don’t misunderstand me,” Newman added. “It is one thing if I don’t say anything, I tell you ‘You don’t have a need to know.’ But if I tell you something that I know isn’t true, that’s an action [that] I’m taking for some reason. … I guess what I’m trying to push you to address square on here is, is this indicative of some sort of operational interest in Oswald’s file?”
This was the key question of the interview and Roman took it head on.
“Yes,” she replied. “To me its indicative of a keen interest in Oswald held very closely on the need to know basis.”
How does Newman posit that the "40 million Americans gonna die" WW III Virus, this catalyst if-you-will, got into Oswald's CIA file?
Answer:
By Angleton's having a CIA agent or officer impersonate Oswald over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line in Mexico City on 10/02/63, and have this "Lee Oswald" claim to have met with (highly radioactive) Kostikov three days earlier at the Soviet Embassy.
Problem is, "Oswald" didn't bring up the name "Kostikov," the Soviet Embassy's highly-paid "security guard," did.
Problem is, said "security guard," Ivan Obyedkov, was a guy CIA thought it had recruited as an in-place double-agent, but who in reality was a still-loyal-to-the-Kremlin triple-agent.
Problem is, known KGB officer Valeriy Kostkov's name was made "radioactive" for this situation (i.e., associated with KGB's First Chief Directorate's "Department 13") by the pronouncements of another KGB triple-agent, Hoover's beloved and protected-from-CIA "Fedora," aka Aleksei Kulak.
The World War Three Virus (suspicion that Oswald had met with the KGB head of assassinations and sabotage in the Western Hemisphere about seven weeks before the assassination), forced CIA, FBI, LBJ and the Warren Commission to cover up evidence that Khrushchev and/or Castro were behind the assassination, and had the side benefit to the Ruskies of making it look to Tin Foil Hat Conspiracy Theorists some fifty years later that the cover up was done to protect the CIA's and FBI's asses, not Khrushchev's and Castro's.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
-
G
How does Newman posit that the "40 million Americans gonna die" WW III Virus, this catalyst if-you-will, got into Oswald's CIA file?
Answer:
By Angleton's having a CIA agent or officer impersonate Oswald over a sure-to-be-tapped-by-CIA phone line in Mexico City on 10/02/63, and have this "Lee Oswald" claim to have met with (highly radioactive) Kostikov three days earlier at the Soviet Embassy.
Problem is, "Oswald" didn't bring up the name "Kostikov," the Soviet Embassy's highly-paid "security guard," did.
Problem is, said "security guard," Ivan Obyedkov, was a guy CIA thought it had recruited as an in-place double-agent, but who in reality was a still-loyal-to-the-Kremlin triple-agent.
Problem is, known KGB officer Valeriy Kostkov's name was made "radioactive" for this situation (i.e., associated with KGB's First Chief Directorate's "Department 13") by the pronouncements of another KGB triple-agent, Hoover's beloved and protected-from-CIA "Fedora," aka Aleksei Kulak.
The World War Three Virus (suspicion that Oswald had met with the KGB head of assassinations and sabotage in the Western Hemisphere about seven weeks before the assassination), forced CIA, FBI, LBJ and the Warren Commission to cover up evidence that Khrushchev and/or Castro were behind the assassination, and had the side benefit to the Ruskies of making it look to Tin Foil Hat Conspiracy Theorists some fifty years later that the cover up was done to protect the CIA's and FBI's asses, not Khrushchev's and Castro's.
LOL
-- MWT ;)
You do realize, do you not, that you are now asking and answering your own questions?
-
Soviets and Cubans spombleprofglidnoctobuns their pants on 11/22/63.
-
You do realize, do you not, that you are now asking and answering your own questions?
So what, Plato?
I'm secretly hoping you can help me "see the light," and metamorphose out of my cockroach state and back into the oh-so socially acceptable form of a Tinfoil Hat-Wearing "The-Evil-Evil--Evil-CIA-Did-It!" Conspiracy Theorist.
Problem is, your theory doesn't take into account Duran's and Azcue's short, blond, very thin-faced Oswald, or the fact that Ivan Obyedkov was a KGB triple-agent, or that the above-referenced Blond Oswald claimed to have met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-brandishing Lee Harvey Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on Sunday, September 29, or ...
-- MWT ;)
-
Soviets and Cubans spombleprofglidnoctobuns their pants on 11/22/63.
That's what they'd like you to believe.
-- MWT ;)
-
And the conspirators wanted you to think that Cuba/USSR was behind it.
-
And the conspirators wanted you to think that Cuba/USSR was behind it.
Not me, or you (or any other common person), but the CIA and the FBI and LBJ.
I guess you've never heard of John Newman's theory that evil, evil, evil James Jesus Angleton arranged for a WW III Virus to be planted in Oswald's CIA file so that, "in order to save 40 million American lives," the rest of the CIA and the FBI and LBJ would be forced to insist seven weeks later that Oswald had done it all by himself (which, ironically, may have been the case -- after a little training/programming by the KGB in the USSR, or maybe even at Oswald's own initiative to, you know, save mankind by speeding up the Marxist-Leninist dialectics a bit).
So it's like that, but the KGB and the DGI arranged it, not Angleton, imho.
-- MWT ;)
-
You do realize, do you not, that you are now asking and answering your own questions?
They were rhetorical questions, Mike.
Regardless, do you disagree with the answers?
If so, why?
-- MWT ;)
-
Not me, or you (or any other common person), but the CIA and the FBI and LBJ.
I guess you've never heard of John Newman's theory that evil, evil, evil James Jesus Angleton arranged for a WW III Virus to be planted in Oswald's CIA file so that, "in order to save 40 million American lives," the rest of the CIA and the FBI and LBJ would be forced to insist seven weeks later that Oswald had done it all by himself (which, ironically, may have been the case -- after a little training/programming by the KGB in the USSR, or maybe even at Oswald's own initiative, you know, to save mankind by speeding up the Marxist-Leninist dialectics a bit).
So it's like that, but the KGB and the DGI arranged it, not Angleton, imho.
-- MWT ;)
Disagree one-million percent ;)
-
You do realize, do you not, that you are now asking and answering your own questions?
So what, Plato?
I'm secretly hoping you can help me "see the light," and metamorphose from my present cockroach state back into the oh-so socially acceptable form of a Tinfoil Hat-Wearing "The-Evil-Evil--Evil-CIA-Did-It!" Conspiracy Theorist.
Problem is, your theory doesn't take into account Duran's and Azcue's short, blond, very thin-faced Oswald, or the fact that CIA's Ivan Obyedkov was a KGB triple-agent, or that run-of-the-mill KGB officer Valiery Kostikov was made uber-radioactive by Hoover's beloved-but-triple-agent "Fedora" and a mysterious former (East?) German FBI double-agent by the name of Guenter Heinz Schulz, or that the above-referenced Blond Oswald claimed, in 1993, to have met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-brandishing Lee Harvey Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on that Sunday in Mexico City, or ...
... or that the CIA might have been using Oswald in the USSR and/or in Mexico City in a highly compartmentalized mole hunt that ended up being piggybacked/compromized by the KGB or its sister-in-arms service, the DGI.
-- MWT ;)
edited and bumped for Mike
-
The Castro theory seems plausible because attempts to assassinate him continued through JFK’s Presidency.
I don’t see any reason to think the Soviets might’ve been involved.
Castro had spies in Mexico City and in the US within the Cuban Exile community. It’s plausible that his spies could’ve established a connection with with Oswald.
-
The Russians nor Cubans had zero to do with the murder. Tom Graves admittedly is paranoid about Russia - now and 56 years ago. He bases his whole theory on some From Russia with Love nonsense down in MC.
A guy named Mike Clark recently posted what I thought was a very good rebuttal to Tom's paranoid Russkies Did It theory. In addition, all of the things below have to fall into place for the Russkies to pull it off:
[The Russkies] steer Oswald into the building in October for a job so he can then take the fall for the murder.
[The Russkies] need to have control of Oswald's files from the time he defects until he returns.
[The Russkies] need to know about the marked files in LHO's files saying that he's a certain height and weight. This is so, three years later, within 15 minutes of the shooting, those same dimensions are announced on the radio.
[The Russkies] need to get Tippit into place so he can be gunned down.
[The Russkies] need to control Jack Ruby so he'll gun Oswald down on Sunday.
Read State Secret by Bill Simpich. It goes into great detail about all of this. Things happen for a reason. The Cubans nor Russians had no real motive to get rid of Kennedy. Others, who he pissed off and upset the so-called world order apple cart, did.
Watch this movie by Oliver Stone, who Tom Graves admittedly despises. This is one of the more honest portrayals of Kennedy and his presidency. Then ask yourself - how could the Russkies/Castro have pulled it off? The answer is simple - they didn't.
Not a valid vimeo URL
-
.....
Walton,
Unfortunately, you've been "brainwashed" (like so many other well-meaning Americans) into believing that neither the KGB nor the DGI had anything to do with the JFK assassination, but that the evil, evil, evil CIA "dood da deed".
-- MWT ;)
PS Have you read Tennent H. Bagley's book Spy Wars or his 35-page PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars, yet, or do they cause you so much cognitive-dissonance pain that you've gotta set 'em down?
Too boring?
Too many Russian names?
Okay, then, how about chapter 10 of Mark Riebling's fine 1994 book Wedge: The Secret War Between the FBI and CIA? Think you can handle that?
https://archive.org/details/WedgeFromPearlHarborTo911HowTheSecretWarBetweenTheFBIAndCIAHasEndangeredNationalSecurity/page/n2
-
Instead of reverting back to your From Russia with Love book, why don't you at least try to explain each thing I've listed? How could each of those things theoretically have taken place in the grand scheme of things?
-
You do realize, do you not, that you are now asking and answering your own questions?
So what, Plato?
I'm secretly hoping you can help me "see the light," and metamorphose from my present cockroach state back into the oh-so socially acceptable form of a Tinfoil Hat-Wearing "The-Evil-Evil--Evil-CIA-Did-It!" Conspiracy Theorist.
Problem is, your theory doesn't take into account Duran's and Azcue's short, blond, very thin-faced Oswald, or the fact that CIA's Ivan Obyedkov was a KGB triple-agent, or that run-of-the-mill KGB officer Valiery Kostikov was made uber-radioactive by Hoover's beloved-but-triple-agent "Fedora" and a mysterious former (East?) German FBI double-agent by the name of Guenter Heinz Schulz, or that the above-referenced Blond Oswald claimed, in 1993, to have met one-on-one with an emotional, revolver-brandishing Lee Harvey Oswald at the Soviet Embassy on that Sunday in Mexico City, or ...
... or that the CIA might have been using Oswald in the USSR and/or in Mexico City in a highly compartmentalized mole hunt that ended up being piggybacked/compromized by the KGB or its sister-in-arms service, the DGI.
-- MWT ;)
edited and bumped for Mike
Hippias,
Your theory relies on transcripts of recordings that were erased by the CIA, weeks after the assassination. The Oswald in Mexico City did not fit the description of Oswald, did not sound like him, spoke poor Russian, and was 6 feet tall. Duran described a different man. There is no evidence for this Oswald doing what you say. The CIA destroyed their “evidence”.
Yours truly,
Plato
-
Walton,
Unfortunately, you've been "brainwashed" (like so many other well-meaning Americans) into believing that neither the KGB nor the DGI had anything to do with the JFK assassination, but that the evil, evil, evil CIA "dood da deed".
-- MWT ;)
PS Have you read Tennent H. Bagley's book Spy Wars or his 35-page PDF Ghosts of the Spy Wars, yet, or do they cause you so much cognitive-dissonance pain that you've gotta set 'em down?
Too boring?
Too many Russian names?
Okay, then, how about chapter 10 of Mark Riebling's fine 1994 book Wedge: The Secret War Between the FBI and CIA? Think you can handle that?
https://archive.org/details/WedgeFromPearlHarborTo911HowTheSecretWarBetweenTheFBIAndCIAHasEndangeredNationalSecurity/page/n2
The Russians did it
The Russians did not do it
Castro did it
Castro did not do it
CIA did it
CIA did not do it
Do you think the CIA, Russians or Castro were involved?
A more interesting question is why would a LNer, like yourself, spend any time discussing more than just Oswald being involved? Not only that but for you, Thomas Graves, to initiate the topic makes no sense. If you support the WC -- you support the WC. What is strange you are playing with 3 other theories as if one is more plausible than the other 2. That shows me you have no confidence in the LN theory. Is that because you know you can't even prove Oswald did it so you need an alternative theory?
-
.....
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Sorry to disappoint you, but since I believe that the CIA and the FBI, fearing nuclear Armeggedon and acute embarrassment, respectively -- due to the "WW III Virus" planted in Oswald's CIA file by KGB triple-agents Aleksei Kulak and Ivan Obyedkov (and probable Oswald phone impersonator Nikolai Leonov) and by FBI's failure to keep track of Oswald and to warn the Secret Service and the Dallas PD about him -- covered up evidence suggesting Khrushchev's and Castro's involvement in the assassination, I obviously don't believe everything in the Warren Report.
Question: Do you believe anything in the Warren Report?
Do you believe that the evil, evil, evil CIA killed JFK?
LOL
-- MWT ;)
-
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Sorry to disappoint you, but since I believe that the CIA and the FBI, fearing nuclear Armeggedon and acute embarrassment, respectively (due to the "WW III Virus" planted in Oswald's CIA file by KGB triple-agents Aleksei Kulak and Ivan Obyedkov, and by FBI's failure to keep track of Oswald and to warn the Secret Service and the Dallas PD about him), covered up evidence suggesting Khrushchev's and Castro's involvement in the assassination, I obviously don't believe everything in the Warren Report.
Question: Do you believe anything in the Warren Report?
Do you believe that the evil, evil, evil CIA killed JFK?
LOL
-- MWT ;)
It is strange that you wander off into an area that has nothing to do with Oswald being a LN. When it comes to anything other than Oswald being a LN, there you are going out of your way to support the CIA. Why say anything, instead, you can't help yourself so out comes Tom's gossip tabloid bs. Just tell me you created these stories because then I will say you are one hell of a storyteller. The great CIA was so paranoid of the communist threat, that your LN re-enters the U.S. like he never left. At that point could a reasonable person say the CIA was evil? No, but lazy comes to mind. How could the CIA be lazy? They were not lazy. They sent Lee there and they welcomed him back. Use your head it is right on your shoulders. I love CIA because they know everything at the same time they know nothing.
-
.....
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Gossip tabloid bs?
What gossip tabloid bs?
-- MWT ;)
-
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Gossip tabloid bs?
What gossip tabloid bs?
-- MWT ;)
Do you know of the CIA having possession of the Z-film early on when stupid people believe TIME-LIFE had it? You know the CIA did or you know Time-LIFe did? Actually, you could not know. But wait, maybe the Russians had it. Was TIME-LIFE in Chicago? Maybe mobster Sammy G had it in Chicago. Did you get your copy?
-
Do you know of the CIA having possession of the Z-film early on when stupid people believe TIME-LIFE had it? You know the CIA did or you know Time-LIFe did? Actually, you could not know. But wait, maybe the Russians had it. Was TIME-LIFE in Chicago? Maybe mobster Sammy G had it in Chicago. Did you get your copy?
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Are you the worst of the worst -- an Alterationist?
-- MWT ;)
-
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Are you the worst of the worst -- an Alterationist?
-- MWT ;)
Tom,
Don’t you know that your claim of a couple Russian stooges sheanking into Angleton’s filing cabinet and planting Incriminating LHO evidence is pretty, er, um, silly?
You do know that, Tom? Do you not?
Yours truly,
Plato
-
Tom,
Don’t you know that your claim of a couple Russian stooges sheanking into Angleton’s filing cabinet and planting Incriminating LHO evidence is pretty, er, um, silly?
You do know that, Tom? Do you not?
Yours truly,
Plato
Dear Plato,
Better not come out into the sunshine.
It'll blow you and your Ideas away.
-- MWT ;)
PS Who said anything about two KGB triple-agents (Aleksei Kulak and Ivan Obyedkov) physically putting anything in CIA files?
-
Dear Plato,
Better not come out into the sunshine.
It'll blow you and your Ideas away.
-- MWT ;)
PS Who said anything about two KGB triple-agents (Aleksei Kulak and Ivan Obyedkov) physically putting anything in CIA files?
Tom,
Do you know what that sounds, quite clearly, like?
And, Tom, you do know, don’t you, what that sounds like to people whose job it is to handle such things?
Yours Truly,
Plato
-
Tom,
Do you know what that sounds, quite clearly, like?
And, Tom, you do know, don’t you, what that sounds like to people whose job it is to handle such things?
Yours Truly,
Plato
OMG, I guess you're even more paranoid than I realized, and that you're unfamiliar with The Alegory of the Cave.
-- MWT ;)
PS Still consider Yuri Nosenko a true defector and Tennent H. Bagley his evil,evil, evil sadistic interrogator who put so much stress on poor Yuri that he just plum forgot things and ... gasp ... had to keep changing his story?
Has the possibility ever crossed your mind that the main reason KGB dispatched Nosenko to the U.S. was to detract from true defector Golitsyn, who was turning CIA (and trying to turn the FBI) onto moles in our and allies intelligence services and governments?
D'oh
-
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Are you the worst of the worst -- an Alterationist?
-- MWT ;)
So why is it that the CIA is so sloppy, I would expect them to never leave a trail. They must have the worst sweepers. You should honestly feel embarrassed for defending an agency that doesn't live up to much of anything but being messy and reckless. I bet you have a collection of Spy vs Spy comic books
-
So why is it that the CIA is so sloppy, I would expect them to never leave a trail. They must have the worst sweepers. You should honestly feel embarrassed for defending an agency that doesn't live up to much of anything but being messy and reckless. I bet you have a collection of Spy vs Spy comic books
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Not sure what you're referring to when you say the CIA was "sloppy" and "left a trail".
Are you referring to the distinct possibility that KGB and DGI "ghosted to the doorstep of the CIA" the assassination of JFK, as Angleton so eloquently put it?
https://archive.org/details/WedgeFromPearlHarborTo911HowTheSecretWarBetweenTheFBIAndCIAHasEndangeredNationalSecurity/page/n445
(Ah yes, Bruce Solie, the Office of Security officer who was fooled by false-defector Igor Kochnov into believing that false defector Yuri Nosenko was a true defector. LOL)
-- MWT ;)
-
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Not sure what you're referring to when you say the CIA was "sloppy" and "left a trail".
Are you referring to the distinct possibility that KGB and DGI "ghosted to the doorstep of the CIA" the assassination of JFK, as Angleton so eloquently put it?
https://archive.org/details/WedgeFromPearlHarborTo911HowTheSecretWarBetweenTheFBIAndCIAHasEndangeredNationalSecurity/page/n445
(Ah yes, Bruce Solie, the Office of Security officer who was fooled by false-defector Igor Kochnov into believing that false defector Yuri Nosenko was a true defector. LOL)
-- MWT ;)
The only false defector you need to focus on is LHO, but your heroes at the CIA don't know anything about that right? The only department/agency that would ever have allowed and known about Oswald is the same departments that implemented our own false defector. The CIA and the military were involved intimately with Oswald b/c he was a member of both. You and your silly spy stories have no relevance and are not even entertaining
-
Brown stuff wrassler Tommy,
How do you go about compensating for, attempting to take into consideration your awareness of not knowing what you are unaware of?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=164062&search=grombach#relPageId=68&tab=page
2. [No Title], pg 68
Found in: FBI documents released on April 26, 2018
DeLoach RELATIONS WITH CIA COL.
JOHN GROMBACH ( PAT O' BRIEN ) . l $ ft i t On the other hand, there were instances where we received information from Grombach which was of either an
to translate, evaluate, publish, etc ., Grombach desires to forward such material to Bureau as Grombach' would not trust any other agency.
Background:
http://www.houstontimeportal.net/allen-landing---grombach.html
Allen's Landing - Grombach
..... Carefully choosing his words, André Grombach sent this postcard to his five year old son, Jean. As an immigrant from France and member of the New Orleans business community, André was the honorary French Consul in New Orleans and a businessman in import-export with ties in Mexico City, Tampico, France. He probably chose this postcard to show his young son a bit of how he made a living. Allen’s Landing must have seemed a poor cousin to New Orlean’s busy commercial port, but no doubt André recognized its potential.
André was born in Macon, France on 17 January 1870, and at the age of 27 married a Parisian girl of Danish and French ancestry, Marcelle Valentin. Probably in connection with business ties, André immigrated into the United States thorough San Salvador in 1898 and settled in New Orleans. His only child, Jean Valentin Grombach, was born there in 1901. André worked in the dry goods import business, primarily between France and Mexico. In 1907 he had his own company, Grombach, Faisans Co., Ltd. trading “Mexican drawn work,” including a number of postcards of New Orleans and Dallas, San Antonio, and Brownsville, TX. His small family travelled back and forth to Paris, living there 1905-1907 and 1912-1913, maintaining a dual American-French residency.
About the time his son Jean was accepted to West Point in 1919, André shifted his business interests to New York City through an affiliation with Cross Hermanos Ltd with offices at 154 Nassau Street in Manhattan near the base of the Brooklyn Bridge. They traded primarily in Mexico City, Tampico, San Salvador, France and Cuba as importers of sarsaparilla, chicle, and liquid amber, and exporter of oil cloth and manufactured goods.
By 1930 Marcelle seems to have remained largely in New Orleans as her husband André and son John lived in New York City. She died in 1939 and is buried in Hebrew Rest Cemetery in New Orleans. André continued to live in New York through at least 1949 living on Nagle Street near the Cloisters, still representing the interests of Cross Hermanos Ltd. No record of his death or burial have been found.
-
The only false defector you need to focus on is LHO, but your heroes at the CIA don't know anything about that, right?
Dear Whatever,
If Oswald was a false defector to the USSR, why did CIA send him there?
Probable answer: In a vain effort to help catch Popov's Mole, whom we now know was Popov's former "dead drop" arranger, honey-trapped-in-Moscow CIA officer Edward Ellis Smith, or someone he helped KGB to recruit after being recalled to Washington in late 1956, interrogated, and fired.
Edwin Walker believed Oswald worked for both the evil, evil, evil CIA and your beloved KGB.
How Many "Lives" Did Oswald Lead?
Was Oswald suspected by CIA of having been "doubled" in the USSR, and let back in to the U.S. (with his KGB wife) "problem-free" so they could be monitored to see whom they might contact?
Was that the plan?
If so, was the plan known by a mole?
(You knew that George DeMohrenschildt, based on some deciphered WWII Venona intercepts, was suspected by CI/SIG's Clare Edward Petty of being a long-term KGB "illegal," right?)
-- MWT ;)
PS More grist for Tommy Scully's "Widdle Mill In Duh Gully":
https://oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/kt8p303667/entire_text/
Hint: A Hyde is mentioned!!!
-
Dear Whatever,
If Oswald was a false defector to the USSR, why did CIA send him there?
Probable answer: In a vain effort to help catch Popov's Mole, whom we now know was Popov's former "dead drop" arranger, honey-trapped-in-Moscow CIA officer Edward Ellis Smith, or someone he helped KGB to recruit after being recalled to Washington in late 1956, interrogated, and fired.
Edwin Walker believed Oswald worked for both the evil, evil, evil CIA and your beloved KGB.
How Many "Lives" Did Oswald Lead?
Was Oswald suspected by CIA of having been "doubled" in the USSR, and let back in to the U.S. (with his KGB wife) "problem-free" so they could be monitored to see whom they might contact?
Was that the plan?
If so, was the plan known by a mole?
(You knew that George DeMohrenschildt, based on some deciphered WWII Venona intercepts, was suspected by CI/SIG's Clare Edward Petty of being a long-term KGB "illegal," right?)
-- MWT ;)
PS More grist for Tommy Scully's "Widdle Mill In Duh Gully":
https://oac.cdlib.org/findaid/ark:/13030/kt8p303667/entire_text/
Hint: A Hyde is mentioned!!!
All noise
What else do you have?
-
All noise
What else do you have?
Dear Whatever,
Never mind.
You're apparently either too brainwashed or too ignorant to "get" it.
-- MWT ;)
-
Dear Whatever,
Never mind.
You're apparently either too brainwashed or too ignorant to "get" it.
-- MWT ;)
A favorite character of yours would say "I know you are but what am I"
That's Pee Wee Herman who actually has way too much in common with the CIA because that is how they deal with their own guilt.
They didn't just frame LHO but they did it through the FBI, Dallas PD and other. Hey, it worked pretty damn well.
You need to stop reading so many books. Did you realize you are a CT? Go look in the mirror and yes, that is exactly what one looks like.
You may have to move to Hollywood, to hang out with your CIA brothers and if you don't like it there you can head up to Mountainview where there is even more
-
A favorite character of yours would say "I know you are but what am I"
That's Pee Wee Herman who actually has way too much in common with the CIA because that is how they deal with their own guilt.
They didn't just frame LHO but they did it through the FBI, Dallas PD and other. Hey, it worked pretty damn well.
You need to stop reading so many books. Did you realize you are a CT? Go look in the mirror and yes, that is exactly what one looks like.
You may have to move to Hollywood, to hang out with your CIA brothers and if you don't like it there you can head up to Mountainview where there is even more
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
And one of these days you're gonna have to pull your head out of your you-know-what.
-- MWT ;)
PS You and James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the EF would really enjoy reading John L. Hart's The Monster Plot to learn how evil and incompetent James Angleton and Tennent H. Bagley, et al., were, especially in the "Golitsyn versus Nosenko" saga. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB431/docs/intell_ebb_019.PDF
But whatever you do, don't read what Bagley had to say about Hart, because it would surely cause you too much "cognitive dissonance" pain.
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames
Or for that matter, what Bagley had to say about Hart's xxxxbuddy at CIA, Leonard McCoy.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
-
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
And one of these days you're gonna have to pull your head out of your you-know-what.
-- MWT ;)
PS You and James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the EF would really enjoy reading John L. Hart's The Monster Plot to learn how evil and incompetent James Angleton and Tennent H. Bagley, et al., were, especially in the "Golitsyn versus Nosenko" saga. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB431/docs/intell_ebb_019.PDF
But whatever you do, don't read what Bagley had to say about Hart, because it would surely cause you too much "cognitive dissonance" pain.
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames
Or for that matter, what Bagley had to say about Hart's xxxxbuddy at CIA, Leonard McCoy.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
Tom, you forgot this most important assessment of Pete Bagley’s competence.
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf
Transcribed below.
TOP SECRET
13 October 1970
MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington
#386 38
1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of subject to a supergrade position.
2) I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.
3) I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions.
Howard J. Osborn
Director of Security
———————————-
Yours truly,
Plato
-
Tom, you forgot this most important assessment of Pete Bagley’s competence.
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf
Transcribed below.
TOP SECRET
13 October 1970
MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD
Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington
#386 38
1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of subject to a supergrade position.
2) I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.
3) I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions.
Howard J. Osborn
Director of Security
———————————-
Yours truly,
Plato
Dear Caveman Plato,
I haven't forgotten that precious document of yours, at all.
1970, huh? Hmm, three years after the powers that be at CIA had, based on bogus "analysis" by Leonard McCoy, John L. Hart and Bruce Solie, declared Nosenko bonafide.
What the hell was your boy Osborn supposed to do at that point, say Bagley had done a good job (which he had, btw -- receiving only excellent performance reports every year and a commendation upon retiring from CIA)?
Sorry to disappoint you, but Bagley didn't have your hero, Nosenko, "imprisoned" (David Murphy did), or even tortured.
No waterboarding, no electrical shocks to the testicles, no pulled fingernails, no beatings, no staged "executions", no never-ending Beach Boys' "Ba-ba-ba Ba-Barb-ra Ann" song played at earsplitting volume 24/7 in a soundproof room while the guards outside watched TV and played dominoes, no administration of LSD (as Nosenko claimed) or "truth serum," etc, etc, etc. Solitary confinement and no TV or radio or reading materials, yes. (Bummer, huh?) Not allowed to brush his teeth, yes. But did get fresh air and an opportunity to exercise for an hour every day, iirc. They knew he was a false defector, Mikey, knew they couldn't hold him indefinitely (like they do in Russia, or administer a bullet in the back of the head), and ... gasp ... they were trying to "break" him. Almost did, too, especially when they caught him up in a couple of whoppers -- e.g., the fact that he told his interrogators something very important in 1964 that had supposedly happened in Moscow in late 1960, but which he had "forgotten" to tell Bagley and Kisevalter in Geneva in 1962, i.e., that the U.S. Embassy-Moscow security officer, Abidian, had allegedly been spotted by KGB setting up a dead drop, and that that had contributed to their eventually catching Penkovsky, about a year-and-a-half after he'd defected "in place", but we know now that the dead drop story was a KGB ruse, and that Penkovsky had actually been "burned" by a mole in U.S. or British intelligence -- probably Roger Hollis of MI-5 -- just a couple of weeks after he'd defected, i.e., in Spring of 1961.
Amazingly enough, KGB so highly valued the mole (Hollis?) who had betrayed Penkovsky that, in order not to blow his or her cover, they didn't arrest Penkovsky right away, but let him continue to give CIA top-secret information (including the Soviet missiles in Cuba) for about a year until they could contrive a plausible-looking scenario for "suspecting" Penkovsky and arresting him without drawing attention to the mole.
That's just one example of Nosenko's many whoppers that Bagley was onto, but was unable to get Nosenko, muttering to himself and falling into a trance-like state, to confess to and thereby really start "spilling the beans". Bagley intuited, correctly I believe, that Nosenko had been "programmed" in the USSR to not break under "harsh American interrogation.
Regarding your precious document, above, it sounds as though Bruce Baby (who believed Nosenko a true defector because 1) he wanted to, and 2) because 1966 false defector Igor Kochnov told him that he, Kochnov, had been sent by the KGB to the U.S. to find and liquidate both (true) defector Golitsyn and (false) defector Nosenko, got to your boy Osborn and exaggerated the horrible, horrible conditions under which Nosenko was held. Pity that.
You might enjoy reading a few pages in Spy Wars about the disastrous joint CIA-FBI "Kitty Hawk" case that involved Solie and Kochnov and a hapless true defector (a Soviet Navy captain) to the U.S.
It will give you a good idea of just how bogus Solie's main source of information on Nosenko, Igor Kochnov, really was, and also what great lengths the Ruskies have always gone to protect their moles and agents in the U.S. by sending false defectors to confuse and confound CIA and FBI, and "throw them off the scent".
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n209
Cheers!
-- MWT :D
PS And oh by the way Nosenko didn't provide any "leads" to U.S. Intelligence on any KGB or GRU "moles" that weren't already suspected (and therefore being watched), or who still had access to classified materials, whereas Golitsyn did -- not so many in the U.S. (although he pointed in the direction of never uncovered in his lifetime Edward Ellis Smith), but several in France and in certain other European countries.
-
Dear Caveman Pedant Plato,
Haven't forgotten it at all.
!970, huh? Hmm, three years after the powers that be at CIA had, based on bogus "analysis" by Leonard McCoy, John L. Hart and Bruce Solie, declared Nosenko bonafide.
What the hell was your boy Osborn supposed to do at that point, say Bagley had done a good job (which he had, btw -- receiving only excellent performance reports every year and a commendation upon retiring from CIA)?
Sorry to disappoint you, but Bagley didn't have your hero, Nosenko, "imprisoned" (David Murphy did), or even tortured.
No waterboarding, no electrical shocks to the testicles, no pulled fingernails, no beatings, no staged "executions", no never-ending Beach Boys' "Ba-ba-ba Ba-Barb-ra Ann" song played at earsplitting volume 24/7 in a soundproof room while the guards outside watched TV and played dominoes, no administration of LSD (as Nosenko claimed) or "truth serum," etc, etc, etc. Solitary confinement and no TV or radio or reading materials, yes. (Bummer, huh?) Not allowed to brush his teeth, yes. But did get fresh air and an opportunity to exercise for an hour every day, iirc. They knew he was a false defector, Mikey, knew they couldn't hold him indefinitely (like they do in Russia, or administer a bullet in the back of the head), and ... gasp ... they were trying to "break" him. Almost did, too, especially when they caught him up in a couple of whoppers -- e.g., the fact that he told his interrogators something in 1964 that had supposedly happened in Moscow in late 1960 but which he had "forgotten" to tell Bagley and Kisevalter in 1962 in Geneva, i.e., that the U.S. Embassy-Moscow security officer, Abidian, had been spotted setting up a dead drop, and that contributed to their eventually catching Penkovsky about a year-and-a-half after he'd defected to CIA and British Intelligence "in place" (in early 1961), but we know now that Penkovsky was "burned" by a mole in U.S. or British intelligence -- probably Roger Hollis of MI-5 -- just a couple of weeks after he'd defected(!), and that KGB so highly valued the mole who had betrayed Penkovsky that, in order not to blow said mole's cover, they let Penkovsky continue to give CIA top-secret information for about a year until they could contrive a plausible-looking scenario for "suspecting" Penkovsky.
Just one example of Nosenko's many whoppers that Bagley was onto, but was unable to get Nosenko, muttering to himself and falling into a trance-like state, to confess to and thereby really start "spilling the beans". Bagley intuited, correctly I believe, that Nosenko had been "programmed" in the USSR to not break under "harsh American interrogation.
Regarding your precious document, above, it sounds as though Bruce Baby (who believed Nosenko a true defector because 1) he wanted to, and 2) because 1966 false defector Igor Kochnov told him that he, Kochnov, had been sent by the KGB to the U.S. to find and liquidate both (true) defector Golitsyn and (false) defector Nosenko, got to your boy Osborn and exaggerated the horrible, horrible conditions under which Nosenko was held. Pity that.
You might enjoy reading a few pages in Spy Wars about the disastrous joint CIA-FBI "Kitty Hawk" case that involved Solie and Kochnov and a hapless true defector (a Soviet Navy captain) to the U.S.
It will give you a good idea of just how bogus Solie's main source of information on Nosenko, Igor Kochnov, really was, and also what great lengths the Ruskies have always gone to protect their moles and agents in the U.S. by sending false defectors to confuse and confound CIA and FBI, and "throw them off the scent".
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n209
Cheers!
-- MWT :D
PS And oh by the way Nosenko didn't provide any "leads" to U.S. Intelligence on any KGB or GRU "moles" that weren't already suspected (and therefore being watched), or who still had access to classified materials, whereas Golitsyn did -- a few in the U.S. but more in France and certain other European countries.
Tom,
Incorrect
Yours truly,
Plato
-
Dear xxxxx I mean xxxxx I mean Caveman Plato,
No, I haven't forgotten your precious Howard J. Osborn memo, at all.
It's fascinating that it was given to you by John M. Newman, evidently to encourage you to continue despising and discounting Bagley, even though Newman, himself, was firmly convinced by Bagley's 2007 book Spy Wars and by Bagley's and Kondrachev's 2013 book Spymaster that, well ... Nosenko was a false defector, and ... gasp ... Golitsyn was a true one.
But back to your precious document.
Truth-be-told, I can't forget about the damn thing -- it makes me wake up every night in a cold sweat!!!
(sarcasm)
1970, huh? Hmm, three years after Dick Helms had -- based on legal time constraints, grumblings in Operations, subterfuge by J. Edgar Hoover, and disingenuous "rebuttals" of Bagley's 850-page analysis of Nosenko by Leonard McCoy, John L. Hart and Bruce Solie -- declared Nosenko "kinda bonafide".
What the hell was your boy Osborn supposed to do at that point, say Bagley had done a good job (which he had, btw -- receiving only excellent performance reports every year and a commendation upon retiring from CIA)?
Sorry to disappoint you, Mikey, but Bagley didn't have your hero, Nosenko, "imprisoned" (David Murphy did), or even tortured.
(Fwiw, James Angleton of CI didn't want Nosenko incarcerated and harshly interrogated at all, but to be "played" like a monster (pardon the pun) trout on a light-test line ...)
No waterboarding, no electrical shocks to the testicles, no pulled fingernails, no beatings, no staged "executions," no nonstop Beach Boys' Ba-ba-ba Ba-Barb-ra Ann at high volume while the guards played dominoes and watched TV, no administration of LSD (as Nosenko claimed) or "truth serum," no cattle prods up the you-know-what.
Hey, your comrade-in-arms would probably really get off on that, doncha think?
Kinda interesting how she left the EF shortly after I was banned there.
Mission accomplished, eh?
Solitary confinement and no TV or radio or reading materials? Gasp ... yes. (Bummer, huh?) Not allowed to brush his teeth? Gasp ... yes.
But, hey, he did get to go outside to a special patio or some-such place and breathe some incredibly invigorating fresh air, and get some incredibly invigorating exercise for an hour every day, iirc.
Bagley & Co. knew, as even John Newman and Peter Dale Scott realize now, that Nosenko was a false defector, but they also knew that legally they couldn't hold him indefinitely (like they do in Russia, or it's on your knees and Bullet the Blue Sky, baby), hoping against hope that he'd somehow "spill the beans" while having cookies and pudding with them some afternoon, and so ... gasp ... they were (oh my god) trying to "break" him, especially after Helms had given Bagley a 60-day deadline to either "break 'em or let 'em go" in August of 1966, iirc.
Almost did, too, especially when they tripped him up with a couple of screwups he made in 1964 which reflected on whoppers-by-ommission he'd told them in 1962 in Geneva (he told several, actually, and told even more whoppers of comission during those five meetings in Switzerland, and between 1964 and 1967 in the good old U.S.A.).
To wit: 1) when he had to admit that he didn't even know that the U.S. Embassy-Moscow Security Officer he'd supposedly been in charge of monitoring in 1960, John Abidian, had taken a month-long vacation to Armenia that year, and 2) the fact that in 1964 he told Bagley & Co. about something that had supposedly happened in Moscow in late 1960, but which he had inexplicably "forgotten" to tell Bagley and Kisevalter about in Geneva in 1962 (when he was supposedly compromising himself to the CIA and theoretically setting himself up to be a potential user of CIA dead drops in the future) -- that the above-mentioned U.S. Embassy security officer, Abidian, had been spotted by KGB while "setting up a CIA dead drop" for some unknown Soviet traitor in late 1960 !!!
Problem is, that dead drop was set up by Penkovsky, himself, in 1960, and Abidian didn't get around to checking it until 1961, by which time Nosenko had already left that department (the KGB department whose mission was to penetrate and compromise the U.S. Embassy in Moscow).
If, that is, he was ever even in it.
LOL
See, Mikey, the problem for you and all of the other "Nosenko Was A True Defector!" ignoramuses out there (James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the EF comes to mind) is that we now know that the dead drop story was a KGB ruse -- that Penkovsky had actually been "burned" by a mole in U.S. or British intelligence -- probably Roger Hollis of MI-5 -- just a couple of weeks after he'd defected-in-place in the Spring of 1961!.
Moral of the story: The KGB, not wanting to tip off CIA or British Intelligence to that very valuable mole (and maybe even another, never-uncovered one who told KGB stuff about Penkovsky that even Hollis wouldn't have known about) didn't arrest Penkovsky right away, but let him continue to give CIA top-secret information (including about the Soviet missiles in Cuba) for a year-and-a-half, until they had concocted a plausible-looking scenario and put all of the pieces in place for arresting Penkovsky and having it look as though he'd been uncovered by superior KGB surveillance methods rather than by an American or British mole.
Point being? Point being the KGB went to extraordinary lengths to protect its moles -- in this case the ones who had betrayed Oleg Penkovsky.
Those are just two examples of Nosenko's many whoppers that Bagley was "onto" but was unable to get Nosenko (occasionally muttering "I can't tell them the truth" to himself and/or falling into a trance-like state) to confess to, and thereby start "spilling the beans" big time.
Bagley intuited, correctly I believe, that Nosenko had been specially "programmed" in the USSR to not break under hostile interrogation.
Regarding your precious document, above, it sounds as though Bruce Baby (who believed Nosenko a true defector because 1) he wanted to, and 2) because 1966 false defector Igor Kochnov told him that he, Kochnov, had been sent by the KGB to the U.S. to find and liquidate both (true) defector Golitsyn and (false) defector Nosenko, got to your boy Osborn and exaggerated the horrible, horrible conditions under which Nosenko was held. Pity that.
You might enjoy reading a few pages in Spy Wars about the disastrous joint CIA-FBI "Kitty Hawk" case that involved Solie and Kochnov and a hapless true defector (a Soviet Navy captain) to the U.S.
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames/page/n209
It will give you a good idea of just how bogus Solie's main source of information on Nosenko, Igor Kochnov, really was, and also what great lengths the Ruskies have always gone to protect their moles and agents in the U.S. by sending to the U.S. oodles and gobs of KGB practitioners of "active measures" counterintelligence ops, and, since 1959 with Dimitri Polyakov, "strategic deception" counterintelligence ops, to confuse and confound and subvert the CIA and the FBI (which, under J.E.H. was very, very easy to do, unfortunately) and throw said organizations not only "off the scent," but at each others throats.
Cheers!
-- MWT :D
PS And oh by the way Nosenko didn't provide any "leads" to U.S. Intelligence on any KGB or GRU "moles" that weren't already suspected (and therefore being watched), or who still had access to classified materials, whereas Golitsyn did -- not so many in the U.S. as I recall, but several in France and certain other European countries ...
Edited and bumped for Caveman Plato.
Question for Caveman Plato:
"Incorrect, you say"?
Whatsa matter, Mikey?
Does what I've written above not jibe with what you've been brainwashed to believe during the few years you've been studying the "shenanigans" of the evil, evil, evil CIA (and the FBI, I suppose, too) against your beloved KGB and GRU?
Did you have a Marxist professor or two at college? I would imagine that you did, and that that would explain why you're ... well ... such a firebrand, you little xxxxx xx xx-xx, you.
I sold some plants to Professor Herbert Marcuse and his wife in La Jolla back in the day. Slipped him a note that read "This Is A Two-Dimensional Job" while she was getting her money out. He got a big kick out of that.
And I went to a Young Communist (or some-such thing) meeting at Professor Richard Popkin's house (ever heard of him?) back around 1967. (I went to high school with his son, Jeremy, who was a year older than I. Poor guy got straight "A"s except for "C"s in PE and was denied admission to Reed College, probably because he was JEWISH, according to my Advanced English teacher, far left-leaning Mr. Carey. You would have loved Mr. Carey, Mikey, vermin-squashing firebrand that you are.)
Actually, I lied. I got there late. I didn't have a car yet, or enough money for a taxi, and I stupidly took a shortcut that night (some bushwhacking up a chaparral-covered hillside or two to get to their house which I'd never been to before, and ... well ... the meeting was already over when I finally got there! ... and I didn't even go inside their house ... but I did speak briefly with The Professor Popkin at the front door!
Got a ride from a real, live self-described Communist Official while hitchhiking in the outskirts of Prague in 2000, too.
Aren't you envious, Caveman Plato, ... you ... you ... you ignorant little firebrand, you, waging the good fight against the evil, evil, evil CIA on behalf of your beloved KGB and GRU?
.....
Tom,
Incorrect.
Yours truly.
Plato
That's not much of a rebuttal, Mikey.
Nice "cover job," though. As usual.
-
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
And one of these days you're gonna have to pull your head out of your you-know-what.
-- MWT ;)
PS You and James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio at the EF would really enjoy reading John L. Hart's The Monster Plot to learn how evil and incompetent James Angleton and Tennent H. Bagley, et al., were, especially in the "Golitsyn versus Nosenko" saga. https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB431/docs/intell_ebb_019.PDF
But whatever you do, don't read what Bagley had to say about Hart, because it would surely cause you too much "cognitive dissonance" pain.
https://archive.org/details/SpyWarsMolesMysteriesAndDeadlyGames
Or for that matter, what Bagley had to say about Hart's xxxxbuddy at CIA, Leonard McCoy.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362
The only one that has been brainwashed is you. After all, you are the one that believes this these freaks from the CIA that had their own agenda and were accountable to no one. The strange tactics they employed on people to seek information resembles the sick weirdos of Germany. What is funny is how intrigued you are by all this and then somehow think you can reasonably come to a conclusion one way or another. By the way, your fascination with this nonsense just shows how desperate you are to have anyone listen. There never was anything here to consider helpful because not one person involved has any credibility and you are unable to point to anything specific. You are like a kid playing a new video game lost in another world. You are the real CT with a very polluted mind. You know I am right
-
The only one that has been brainwashed is you. After all, you are the one that believes this these freaks from the CIA that had their own agenda and were accountable to no one. The strange tactics they employed on people to seek information resembles the sick weirdos of Germany. What is funny is how intrigued you are by all this and then somehow think you can reasonably come to a conclusion one way or another. By the way, your fascination with this nonsense just shows how desperate you are to have anyone listen. There never was anything here to consider helpful because not one person involved has any credibility and you are unable to point to anything specific. You are like a kid playing a new video game lost in another world. You are the real CT with a very polluted mind. You know I am right
Dear Whatever Your Name Is,
Did Vladimir Putin pay you to say that?
Or was it Oliver Stone, Roger Stone, or James "Jumbo Duh" DiEugenio?
Or ... none of the above, because ... well ... you really are that ignorant?
-- MWT ;)
PS When you "flatter" me by saying that it's obvious to you that I ... gasp ... believe in what "Nazi-like freaks with their own agenda at CIA were doing," which "freaks" are you referring to (... gasp ... all of them???), and exactly what "agenda" are you talking about?
Hmmm?
-
The only one that has been brainwashed is you. After all, you are the one that believes this these freaks from the CIA that had their own agenda and were accountable to no one. The strange tactics they employed on people to seek information resembles the sick weirdos of Germany. What is funny is how intrigued you are by all this and then somehow think you can reasonably come to a conclusion one way or another. By the way, your fascination with this nonsense just shows how desperate you are to have anyone listen. There never was anything here to consider helpful because not one person involved has any credibility and you are unable to point to anything specific. You are like a kid playing a new video game lost in another world. You are the real CT with a very polluted mind. You know I am right
He has gone quite far beyond the pale; mumbling crazy epithets at perceived present and past tormentors, fools, traitors and liars. If you don’t acknowledge the pet theory into which he-only has exclusive insight, you are on Putin’s payroll, or have been brainwashed by some entity he won’t even name.
It’s sad.
-
Tom,
Newman didn’t give me that doc. I found it myself. It would have meant nothing to me if I hadn’t seen your hundreds (thousands?) of annoying queries as the whether people have read Pete’s article. I would expect to have no friends if I kept repeating the same thing over and over, admonishing people constantly if they did not read what I thought they should read, and accusing them of stupidity, being brainwashed or being a paid shill if they turned a deaf ear to me because I was acting insane. Apparently you are OK with that, or being paid enough to not care.
And, from the video with Scott and Newman, don’t think it’s clear that Scott has changed his mind. I think he said something to the affect that he had to reconsider the subject.
-
Member's must be addressed by their Forum username at all times.
The reasoning behind this new addition to the rules is obvious and requires no explanation.
-
From the video with Scott and Newman, I don’t think it’s clear that Scott has changed his mind [about Nosenko]. I think he said something to the affect [sic] that he had to reconsider the subject.
Nope.
Wishful thinking on your part, Clark.
You need to watch the end of the video again.
Starting at 34:47, to be precise.
(For those who are interested, the title of the youtube video is Dr. John Newman - 3 March, 2018 - Spy Wars, Part 2)
-- MWT ;)
-
From the video with Scott and Newman, I don’t think it’s clear that Scott has changed his mind [about Nosenko]. I think he said something to the affect [sic] that he had to reconsider the subject.
Nope.
Wishful thinking on your part, Clark.
You need to watch the end of the video again.
Starting at 34:47, to be precise.
(For those who are interested, the title of the youtube video is Dr. John Newman - 3 March, 2018 - Spy Wars, Part 2)
-- MWT ;)
.....
Bumped for Michael Clark.