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Author Topic: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda  (Read 8229 times)

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #140 on: February 26, 2019, 03:18:20 AM »
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on February 24, 2019, 01:37:53 PM
    "I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another [cup] of coffee."
 
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Apology accepted!  Thumb1:
I'm all thumbs at typing [and drinking coffee with the other hand] Regarding reply #50...Can you expand on that? Where do you really think Oswald was when the shots were fired? Final answer.
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So You believe that BWF said that he did NOT see Lee on the front steps at the time of the shooting.?? Do I have that right mr Ford? I would agree completely ....Because Frazier would have to be a very strange dude to be looking backward over his shoulder to see if Lee Oswald was on the Steps when all hell is breaking loose in front of him....
I suggested earlier that.. who would notice Oswald when President Kennedy was passing right in front of them?
 
DVP suggested...Reply #10
Quote
But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they? No, they wanted to KEEP that document (and not even cross out the word "Coke" entirely, which was another possibility if they wanted to HIDE the Coke).
And in Reply #27.....  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I don't think Hoover initially actually read that document. Do we think he thoroughly examined every single sheet of paper that may have crossed his desk? He signed [or his signature was stamped] on the cover sheet and passed on to the Commission people.
I also don't think the Commissioners read it or their staff scrutinized every word. It just showed up as a response to a request asking where everyone was located in that lunchroom encounter. Regarding the Baker note ...also written was -- "On the second  xxxxxxxxx" and then crossed out was?... I believe 'or third floor'. It was crossed out and initialed. The lunchroom was not on the third floor.

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #140 on: February 26, 2019, 03:18:20 AM »

Offline Steve Logan

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #141 on: February 26, 2019, 12:10:07 PM »
Frazier never states that he left the stairs. He says he stayed on the steps for a few minutes then went in and went down to the basement. There is no way Frazier saw Oswald "coming up Houston"  if he's being truthful. So where did Frazier actually see Oswald? Film shows Baker hitting the area in front of the steps while Frazier , who states he never saw Baker at all, is still standing on the steps. There are people in the front of the TSBD looking up to the upper floors of the building already before Baker is on the steps. Frazier is statuesque like a dazed nincompoop on the steps in front of the doors while numerous people are in the process of going back into the TSBD where something has occurred to cause people to look up to the windows. Frazier lied, Baker has no idea how long it took from his hearing the shots, parking his bike, running to the building , up the steps , attempting to catch an elevator to no avail then taking the stairs to the second floor lunchroom. All this in 90 seconds?  BS: BS: BS: The foundation of information that some of you internet detectives are utilizing is as bogus as the conclusions you have arrived at.

Online Brian Doyle

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ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2019, 03:40:54 PM »
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Frazier never states that he left the stairs. He says he stayed on the steps for a few minutes then went in and went down to the basement. There is no way Frazier saw Oswald "coming up Houston"  if he's being truthful. So where did Frazier actually see Oswald? Film shows Baker hitting the area in front of the steps while Frazier , who states he never saw Baker at all, is still standing on the steps. There are people in the front of the TSBD looking up to the upper floors of the building already before Baker is on the steps. Frazier is statuesque like a dazed nincompoop on the steps in front of the doors while numerous people are in the process of going back into the TSBD where something has occurred to cause people to look up to the windows. Frazier lied, Baker has no idea how long it took from his hearing the shots, parking his bike, running to the building , up the steps , attempting to catch an elevator to no avail then taking the stairs to the second floor lunchroom. All this in 90 seconds?  BS: BS: BS: The foundation of information that some of you internet detectives are utilizing is as bogus as the conclusions you have arrived at.

 In Gary Savage's book where he interviewed Baker, Baker told him he took a long time to enter the Depository because of the crowd on the steps...What Kamp is doing is taking the veer Baker did at the last second trying to figure out how to get around the crowd on the steps and has turned it in to another Prayer Man group mass hallucination that then becomes fact just because Kamp utters it...

Steve's analysis is ignorant because we can see Truly turning his attention towards Baker in the Couch/Darnell film...Once inside it would take a very brief time for Baker & Truly to move quickly across the 1st floor open space to the northwest staircase...

Frazier's telling the truth...He knew Oswald didn't come out the front door because he was standing there...It doesn't take much to figure Oswald came up Houston from the rear loading dock exit once you know he didn't exit the front door...Frazier said in one of his interviews that he went to the sidewalk intending to go follow Lovelady & Shelley but then decided not to...That's when he saw Oswald...

Shelley got Oswald out the back door because this Oswald (Harvey) had a rendezvous at the Texas Theater he needed to make according to plan...This Oswald then headed up to the bus/taxi encounter...

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ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #142 on: February 26, 2019, 03:40:54 PM »

Offline Steve Logan

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #143 on: February 26, 2019, 04:37:08 PM »
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In Gary Savage's book where he interviewed Baker, Baker told him he took a long time to enter the Depository because of the crowd on the steps...What Kamp is doing is taking the veer Baker did at the last second trying to figure out how to get around the crowd on the steps and has turned it in to another Prayer Man group mass hallucination that then becomes fact just because Kamp utters it...

Steve's analysis is ignorant because we can see Truly turning his attention towards Baker in the Couch/Darnell film...Once inside it would take a very brief time for Baker & Truly to move quickly across the 1st floor open space to the northwest staircase...

Frazier's telling the truth...He knew Oswald didn't come out the front door because he was standing there...It doesn't take much to figure Oswald came up Houston from the rear loading dock exit once you know he didn't exit the front door...Frazier said in one of his interviews that he went to the sidewalk intending to go follow Lovelady & Shelley but then decided not to...That's when he saw Oswald...

Shelley got Oswald out the back door because this Oswald (Harvey) had a rendezvous at the Texas Theater he needed to make according to plan...This Oswald then headed up to the bus/taxi encounter...
As usual Brian the gutless coward ducks and hides from my original question. How and when did Frazier see Oswald coming up Houston ? Instead you give us your sackless fabrication in order to avoid answering a question you have no answer for. You should move to New York City and sell fake Rolex watches on street corners with the other shifty conmen. Frazier made it up. He lied. Like you. Produce the 'interview" where he confesses to perjuring himself while under oath about his actions after the shooting.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 04:50:03 PM by Steve Logan »

Online Brian Doyle

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ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2019, 05:10:11 PM »
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As usual Brian the gutless coward ducks and hides from my original question. How and when did Frazier see Oswald coming up Houston ? Instead you give us your sackless fabrication in order to avoid answering a question you have no answer for. You should move to New York City and sell fake Rolex watches on street corners with the other shifty conmen. Frazier made it up. He lied. Like you. Produce the 'interview" where he confesses to perjuring himself while under oath about his actions after the shooting.

If you had any sense Gary Mack does not follow-through on Frazier's admission in his 2002 video interview because he is aware of the dangerous implications of Frazier's truthful admission...

A good detective, like myself, sees the veracity of Frazier's witnessing in the lack of any witnesses to Oswald coming out the front door...Including the cops...

Plus Lovelady is trying too hard to make Oswald come out the front door in Jarman's relaying of Lovelady's witnessing in Jarman's HSCA interview...He's doing that because he's covering-up for his partner Shelley who was involved with Oswald going out the back door...

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ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2019, 05:10:11 PM »

Offline Steve Logan

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #145 on: February 26, 2019, 05:59:25 PM »
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If you had any sense Gary Mack does not follow-through on Frazier's admission in his 2002 video interview because he is aware of the dangerous implications of Frazier's truthful admission...

A good detective, like myself, sees the veracity of Frazier's witnessing in the lack of any witnesses to Oswald coming out the front door...Including the cops...

Plus Lovelady is trying too hard to make Oswald come out the front door in Jarman's relaying of Lovelady's witnessing in Jarman's HSCA interview...He's doing that because he's covering-up for his partner Shelley who was involved with Oswald going out the back door...

Well you can empty the bubble water out of your Detective pistol because your playing detective days are over.
Here's some real detective work when it comes to you and your investigative skills:
SPECULATION
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
FABRICATION
an invention; a lie.
CONDESCENSION
an attitude of patronizing superiority; disdain.
NARCISSIST
a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
LATCHING ON TO HOAXES
imagine wasting two years of rants on a hoax
DUPED
imagine wasting additional years on a perceived female with the largest head ever to rest on a spine

You can hang up yer cowboy hat and put yer plastic badge away too.

Online Brian Doyle

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #146 on: February 26, 2019, 06:28:23 PM »
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Well you can empty the bubble water out of your Detective pistol because your playing detective days are over.
Here's some real detective work when it comes to you and your investigative skills:
SPECULATION
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
FABRICATION
an invention; a lie.
CONDESCENSION
an attitude of patronizing superiority; disdain.
NARCISSIST
a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
LATCHING ON TO HOAXES
imagine wasting two years of rants on a hoax
DUPED
imagine wasting additional years on a perceived female with the largest head ever to rest on a spine

You can hang up yer cowboy hat and put yer plastic badge away too.

TROLLING...

My input is good as is seen in your inability to seriously answer it...

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #146 on: February 26, 2019, 06:28:23 PM »

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #147 on: February 26, 2019, 07:36:39 PM »
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Ptm Baker had already given his testimony to the Warren Commission but for some unknown reason the FBI had him come in, sit down and hand write another affidavit just before the Commission's works went into print. This document was entered as CE-3076.
In his testimony, the Coke machine was mentioned but there was no mention of Oswald drinking a beverage.
However in his first mention of the lunchroom encounter Baker stated that they [He and Truly] had made their way up to the third or forth floor before Oswald was encountered. That seems rather puzzling. By the time he testified though, he had learned to count to two.
 "Mr. Belin - What happened?"
Mr. BAKER -" As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."         
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Mr Baker had mentioned that Oswald was drinking a coke in earlier interviews. Apparently this could have been the reasoning for the last minute affidavit. 
 
 The words drinking a Coke are crossed out. I suppose it seemed a bit much to have to fit all that in after an alleged super dive from the sixth floor.

The original topic of this thread was..... about the affidavit that was written by an FBI agent under the guise that DPD officer Baker had recanted his testimony about seeing Lee Oswald "drinking a coke" in the second floor lunchroom just seconds after the shots were fired. 

At the time that Baker wrote his original affidavit on 11/22/63 nobody knew that the proposed THEORY was invalid.   Nobody was  aware that the timing involved in attempting to prove the validity the THEORY that the Lee Oswald had fired from the SE corner window, would be shown to be impossible by attempts to "re-enact" the crime.   That THEORY proposed that Lee Oswald ( who proclaimed he was a "patsy" and  innocent) had fired a rifle from the SE corner window on the sixth floor and then made a mad dash to the lunchroom on the second floor of the TSBD, where he was seen calmly drinking a coke by DPD officer Marrion Baker less than 90 seconds after the first shot was fired.

Weeks later in attempting to duplicate the feat that was proposed in the THEORY it was discovered that Lee Osweald could NOT have committed the crime because there simply was not enough time between the first shot of the rifle and the Baker's  encounter with Lee in the lunchroom. Lee simply could not have reached the lunchroom before Baker had reached the lunchroom ..... That was a FACT.   However the commission that had been created by Lyndon Johnson , the man who had leaped into the most powerful seat in government, immediately following the murder, refused to accept that cold hard FACT.....so they immediately started cutting corners in an attempt to cut the elapsed time of imaginary actions of Lee Oswald. The first thing that had to go was the location of the rifle....

That rifle had been found BURIED beneath heavy boxes of books near the top of the stairs in the NW corner of the building.   And Not only was the rifle BURIED BENEATH boxes of books, it was 15' 4" from the north wall of the building which made it out of reach for the proposed assassin as he supposedly dashed by as he fled from the sixth floor.   LBJ's agents realized that it would have taken several minutes for the rifle to be hidden as it had been found, so they moved the location of the rifle closer to the stairs and simply inserted it between boxes of books and snapped pictures that were presented as authentic pictures of the scene. 
But even that bit of deception was not enough to allow Lee Oswald to have reached the second floor lunchroom ahead of Marrion Baker who had said that he saw Lee calmly drinking a coke.  If Lee had had enough time to buy a coke and had been drinking it, then that would have required that he had to have arrived at least thirty seconds before Baker arrived..... And there simply was not enough time available in the proposed THEORY   

The problem arose when LBJ's agents started reviewing their work prior to the publication of the evidence.   In reviewing that evidence they recognized that they could not simply burn Baker's affidavit, and claim that he had never told Chief Curry that he'd seen the murderous villain  Oswald calmly drinking a coke after the shooting.   The DPD had originally attempted to paint the image of Lee Oswald, as a mad man who could toast his feat of murder, by calmly drinking a Coca-Cola, and that story was published for the public.  Thus They were forced to try to find some other way to expunge that "drinking a coke" from the record.... 

That's when one of LBJ's agent hit on the idea of creating another Baker affidavit .   An affidavit that mentioned the act of drinking a coke but then expunged that entry by a simple crossing out of the words but still leaving them readable....   Sure, they could have torn up that affidavit and rewrote it and left out the "Drinking a coke" entry...but that was not the intent.  Or they could have blacked out the words completely , but the whole idea behind the phony affidavit was to expunge the "drinking a coke"





« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 07:45:56 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #147 on: February 26, 2019, 07:36:39 PM »

Online Brian Doyle

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ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #148 on: February 26, 2019, 08:01:02 PM »

Quote
I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."         

Baker's lying here...The reason he's being mushy and conspicuously hesitating on how exactly he saw Oswald is because he knows he saw Oswald staring dead back at him and then flinching away from the vestibule window...He can't say that directly, which is the source of the obvious hesitation over it in this interview...Baker can't honestly tell the Commission how he saw Oswald and that he was standing stationary in the vestibule window because it then becomes clear he was set-up there and standing for the whole time...It wouldn't take long for some clever observer to realize this real witnessing showed Oswald was in the vestibule window the whole time because he was drawn there by Truly's shouting for the elevator and the gunshots...

Walt gets some of it but he doesn't comprehend the full picture...The Coke fits in to this the same way...It was also criminally ditched and lied over for the same reason...It showed Oswald was set-up where Carolyn Arnold saw him 6 minutes earlier and therefore exonerated him...Just like Hosty in his notes, Baker tried to get rid of this exonerating evidence by eliminating all the details in his 1st day affidavit...Both Hosty and Baker were later induced to include more of the details because the plotters realized their flagrant omissions in their original notes were too obvious and incriminated them as deliberately covering-up...They realized they couldn't get away with the first notes because of witnesses like Carolyn Arnold and Mrs Reid...

I discovered very important affirmation of the Coke in my interview with Sarah Stanton's relatives...The idiots in the research community ignore it and do their best not to credit me for it because I've smoked too many of them in fair debate where they can't ban me...

Offline Steve Logan

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2019, 08:10:44 PM »
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TROLLING...

My input is good as is seen in your inability to seriously answer it...
Ok Magnum PI, seeing that you support that cockamamie Two Oswald crap,
Which Oswald went out the front and which Oswald went out by the rear? Did they both go out the back or the front? How far apart did they exit the building from each other? Unless you believe they were holding hands.
You can start lying at any time.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 08:27:33 PM by Steve Logan »

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Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
« Reply #149 on: February 26, 2019, 08:10:44 PM »

 

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