JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jerry Freeman on February 21, 2019, 05:44:05 AM

Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 21, 2019, 05:44:05 AM
Ptm Baker had already given his testimony to the Warren Commission but for some unknown reason the FBI had him come in, sit down and hand write another affidavit just before the Commission's works went into print. This document was entered as CE-3076.
In his testimony, the Coke machine was mentioned but there was no mention of Oswald drinking a beverage.
However in his first mention of the lunchroom encounter Baker stated that they [He and Truly] had made their way up to the third or forth floor before Oswald was encountered. That seems rather puzzling. By the time he testified though, he had learned to count to two.
 "Mr. Belin - What happened?"
Mr. BAKER -" As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."         
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Mr Baker had mentioned that Oswald was drinking a coke in earlier interviews. Apparently this could have been the reasoning for the last minute affidavit. 
 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
 The words drinking a Coke are crossed out. I suppose it seemed a bit much to have to fit all that in after an alleged super dive from the sixth floor.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 21, 2019, 10:30:36 AM
The Baker (and Truly) 9/23/64 statements are explained here:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 21, 2019, 02:53:08 PM
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The Baker (and Truly) 9/23/64 statements are explained here:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html

Ah yes..... The statements need to be "explained".   

The truth is....They liars of LBJ's cover up committee needed to expunge the  fact that Lee Oswald was drinking a coke when Baker burst into the second floor lunchroom....   Because that fact made the theory that Lee had charged from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom after the murder of JFK , a humanly impossible act.   Thus the liars were desperate to expunge Bakers statement about seeing Lee drinking a coke.....

In the immediate aftermath of the murder, the DPD were desperate to paint an ugly portrait of the arch villain Lee Harrrrrrvey Osssssswald Boooooo! Hisssss ! And the  idea that an officer had seen that cold blooded fiend calmly drinking a coke just seconds after he'd blew the President's brains out  seemed like a grand way to show the public what a inhuman fiend he was.   Later when the cover up committee attempted to "re-construct" the imaginary scenario they found that Lee Oswald could not have shot JFK as the DPD had pretended.  Because that damned coke that their own officer had said he saw Lee drinking would have required about 30 seconds to purchase..... and there wasn't a single second to spare in "re-enacting" the crime as they theorized it had happened.

Thus they were compelled to expunge Baker's sworn affidavit.....  And you Mr DVP are a damned fool if you think  that anybody will believe the garbage you have linked to....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 21, 2019, 03:21:03 PM
Quote
And you also think Baker uttered the words "drinking a Coke"....even though we know from his WC testimony months earlier that Baker said he didn't see Oswald with any Coke on November 22nd.
Baker wasn't asked about the soda!---and Belin wasn't about to ask.
Cops are trained in testimony to not volunteer information that isn't asked.
A re-inspection of the signature on the affidavit looks like looks like M L Baker is written differently from the "I, Marion L Baker" and the signed M L Baker. Look at the M -- Look at the L---[almost looks like the L that Lee Harvey made] the B is different--- Did Baker really sign it? Who knows? But we had to get rid of that soda stuff..it just didn't look good.
 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 21, 2019, 03:52:30 PM
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Baker wasn't asked about the soda!---and Belin wasn't about to ask.
Cops are trained in testimony to not volunteer information that isn't asked.
A re-inspection of the signature on the affidavit looks like looks like M L Baker is written differently from the "I, Marion L Baker" and the signed M L Baker. Look at the M -- Look at the L---[almost looks like the L that Lee Harvey made] the B is different--- Did Baker really sign it? Who knows? But we had to get rid of that soda stuff..it just didn't look good.

But we had to get rid of that soda stuff..it just didn't look good.

It wasn't simply a matter of, "not looking good"...   That coke was crucial to Lee's alibi....  ( an alibi is simply a a defense in which the accused presents evidence of his innocence )   Lee had told his interrogators that he was in the second floor lunchroom DRINKING A COKE  when the motorcycle cop with a gun in his hand burst into the lunchroom and demanded to know what he was doing there.   Naturally, Capt Fritz asked Baker if he'd seen Lee Oswald in the Lunchroom.   And Baker had confirmed that he had seen the Lee Oswald in the lunchroom drinking a coke after the shooting.

Lee had a solid alibi that was supported by an officer of the DPD.....    The murderers knew that they could not allow him to live to defend himself......
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 21, 2019, 04:32:06 PM
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  That coke was crucial to Lee's alibi....
Thumb1: Of course that is what I meant by 'it didn't look good'. The precious seconds it took to wiggle around the book stacks on the sixth floor...conceal a weapon... fly down the stairs ...dig change out of a pocket...select the right coins...deposit money...select drink...wait for drink to ka-chink out of the machine...open...then start consuming, didn't sit well with the concept of an agitated killer going on the run. 
 
 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Louis Earl on February 21, 2019, 05:43:03 PM
Two things.

Is that handwritten affidavit supposed to be hand written BY Baker himself?   Or did someone else write it for him to sign?

Second, I find the phrase "bullet shot" to be very unusual. I've never heard that phrase before and I doubt a police officer would use it.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 21, 2019, 07:11:51 PM
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Two things.

Is that handwritten affidavit supposed to be hand written BY Baker himself?   Or did someone else write it for him to sign?

Second, I find the phrase "bullet shot" to be very unusual. I've never heard that phrase before and I doubt a police officer would use it.

Nice Catch....But it's simply a matter of starting to write one thought and then change of thought before the writer has finished the sentence... I do it quite frequently..

Obviously Baker meant either "GUN" shots, or "RIFLE" shots.......

As I recall Baker never actually wrote this affidavit..... It was written by one of Hoover's agents ( SURPRISE !)   
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Royell Storing on February 21, 2019, 07:38:37 PM
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Two things.

Is that handwritten affidavit supposed to be hand written BY Baker himself?   Or did someone else write it for him to sign?

Second, I find the phrase "bullet shot" to be very unusual. I've never heard that phrase before and I doubt a police officer would use it.

      I thought the strangest language used was when Baker wrote/said, "I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might have come FROM this building". This phrasing gives the impression that Baker felt the shots might have been fired from INSIDE the TSBD.  Officer Baker's story has always been that he saw pigeons flying from the TOP of the TSBD after he heard the shots and he then assumed that the shots had been fired from the Roof of the TSBD. The phrasing being used in this statement is an attempt to make the reader believe that Office Baker entered the TSBD believing that shots had been fired from INSIDE the TSBD. 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 21, 2019, 10:13:50 PM
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      I thought the strangest language used was when Baker wrote/said, "I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might have come FROM this building". This phrasing gives the impression that Baker felt the shots might have been fired from INSIDE the TSBD.  Officer Baker's story has always been that he saw pigeons flying from the TOP of the TSBD after he heard the shots and he then assumed that the shots had been fired from the Roof of the TSBD. The phrasing being used in this statement is an attempt to make the reader believe that Office Baker entered the TSBD believing that shots had been fired from INSIDE the TSBD.

Excellent point, Royell....  "I entered this building in an effort to determine if the shots may have come from this building" 

On November 22, Baker said that he thought the sound may have came from the roof of the TSBD because he saw pigeons fly up from behind the Hertz sign that was on the roof.

But By September of 64....He was the perfect monday morning quarterback. 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 21, 2019, 11:17:26 PM
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But we had to get rid of that soda stuff..it just didn't look good.

But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they? No, they wanted to KEEP that document (and not even cross out the word "Coke" entirely, which was another possibility if they wanted to HIDE the Coke).

You CTers need a new hobby. This one is just too embarrassing for you guys now.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dr-pepper-talk.html
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 21, 2019, 11:19:37 PM
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Is that handwritten affidavit supposed to be hand written BY Baker himself? Or did someone else write it for him to sign?

It was very likely written by an FBI agent.

More....
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 21, 2019, 11:27:12 PM
FRITZ: Okay, son, so you admit one of our men saw you in the lunchroom on the second floor?

OSWALD: Naturally if I was in the lunchroom at that time, yes, sir.

FRITZ: What were you doing there?

OSWALD: I had just bought a Coca Cola from the machine they have in there.

FRITZ: What did the officer say to you?

OSWALD: Well, he put a pistol up to my stomach and said 'Do you work here?' I told him I did, and my boss Mr Truly told him I was telling the truth.

FRITZ: What happened next?

OSWALD: Well, they went racing up the stairs.

FRITZ: What did you do then?

OSWALD: Well, I figured the policeman had given me a warning not to miss the President's visit. He and Mr Truly sure looked real keen to get upstairs for a good view of the parade themselves. So I brought my Coca Cola downstairs and went outside to watch the parade.

FRITZ: Did you speak to anyone on the way down?

OSWALD: Yes, sir. As I was going through the office towards the front stairway, a woman who works up there said to me, 'The President should be shot! But I hope they don't kill him.'

FRITZ: What did you say to her?

OSWALD: Oh nothing. I just muttered 'Crazy damn fascist' under my breath. Then I went downstairs and out front.

FRITZ: Let me get this clear, son. You're saying you went outside to watch the Presidential Parade?

OSWALD: Yes, sir. I went out on to the front steps.

FRITZ: What did you see when you got out onto the steps?

OSWALD: Well, it looked like people were real unhappy about the President coming to town. There was screaming and hollering and crying.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Thomas Graves on February 21, 2019, 11:35:27 PM
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      I thought the strangest language used was when Baker wrote/said, "I had entered the building in an effort to determine if the shots might have come FROM this building". This phrasing gives the impression that Baker felt the shots might have been fired from INSIDE the TSBD.  Officer Baker's story has always been that he saw pigeons flying from the TOP of the TSBD after he heard the shots and he then assumed that the shots had been fired from the Roof of the TSBD. The phrasing being used in this statement is an attempt to make the reader believe that Office Baker entered the TSBD believing that shots had been fired from INSIDE the TSBD.

Dear Royell,

Do you think the flock of pigeons might have been motivated to suddenly leave the roof due to a gun's being fired from the sixth floor (think shockwave and loud sound), or only by its being fired from the roof, itself, or perhaps from somewhere else in Dealey Plaza?

If you had been Baker, would you have thought the shots must have come from the roof?

Taking the above questions into consideration, how would you have written that statement if you had been Baker?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 21, 2019, 11:38:14 PM
Question to those who believe the 2nd floor lunchroom incident involving Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly really happened!

Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 21, 2019, 11:38:39 PM
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But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they? No, they wanted to KEEP that document (and not even cross out the word "Coke" entirely, which was another possibility if they wanted to HIDE the Coke).

You CTers need a new hobby. This one is just too embarrassing for you guys now.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dr-pepper-talk.html

But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they?

Bravo!!...  Great acting Von Pea brain....   Or are you acting?....  Perhaps you really are this dumb... Any person of average intelligence can see that the whole idea behind the affidavit was to expunge the statements that Baker had spoken on 11/22/63....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 21, 2019, 11:48:38 PM
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But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they?

Bravo!!...  Great acting Von Pea brain....   Or are you acting?....  Perhaps you really are this dumb... Any person of average intelligence can see that the whole idea behind the affidavit was to expunge the statements that Baker had spoken on 11/22/63....

Provide me with a link that says Officer Baker (on 11/22/63) uttered the words "I saw Oswald drinking a Coke".

You won't be able to do that. But good luck trying.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 21, 2019, 11:51:47 PM
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Question to those who believe the 2nd floor lunchroom incident involving Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly really happened!

Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?


Yes, of course he did.

Oswald knew he couldn't lie his way out of that question like he did with so many others that Fritz asked him. Oswald knew there were TWO other people who would confirm where the "encounter" took place, so he admitted it to Fritz.

Plus, he admitted it because he knew that just because he was in the lunchroom a minute or two after the shooting, that didn't have to mean he was the assassin. So he felt comfortable telling the truth (for once).
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Thomas Graves on February 21, 2019, 11:51:58 PM
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But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they?

Bravo!!...  Great acting Von Pea brain....   Or are you acting?....  Perhaps you really are this dumb... Any person of average intelligence can see that the whole idea behind the affidavit was to expunge the statements that Baker had spoken on 11/22/63....

Dear Walter,

LOL

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Royell Storing on February 22, 2019, 12:18:32 AM
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Dear Royell,

Do you think the flock of pigeons might have been motivated to suddenly leave the roof due to a gun's being fired from the sixth floor (think shockwave and loud sound), or only by its being fired from the roof, itself, or perhaps from somewhere else in Dealey Plaza?

If you had been Baker, would you have thought the shots must have come from the roof?

Taking the above questions into consideration, how would you have written that statement if you had been Baker?

-- Mudd Wrassler Tommy  :)

    I am Not questioning Baker's thinking shots might have come from the roof. I am questioning why the statement is worded in a way to avoid publicizing that a law enforcement officer thought the shot(s) originated from an even Higher source than the 6th floor. There has always been speculation of shot(s) being fired from the ROOF of the Records Bld and/or the Dal Tex Bld.
    One thing I do find strange is Officer Baker choosing to turn the corner onto Elm and then run across the Elm St Extension. If he had thought that shots were being fired from the roof of the TSBD, why not drive the motorcycle Straight Ahead to the curb in front of the TSBD and then run Straight into the TSBD?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 12:47:59 AM
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Question to those who believe the 2nd floor lunchroom incident involving Mr Oswald, Officer Baker and Mr Truly really happened!

Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?

 Thumb1:

Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?

Yes... Hosty and Bookhout confirm that Oswald told them that he'd gone from the first floor to the second floor to buy a bottle of Coke from the vending machine. There would have been no reason for Lee to relate that trivial bit of info if He hadn't been encountered there by Baker.... On page 619 WR  Bookhout's report says....

"he was on the second floor of said building having just purchased a Coca Cola from the soft drink machine at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked if he worked there, Mr Truly was present and verified that he was an employee.".....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 12:49:53 AM
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Provide me with a link that says Officer Baker (on 11/22/63) uttered the words "I saw Oswald drinking a Coke".

You won't be able to do that. But good luck trying.

Go to hell.... I have no time for your BS.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 22, 2019, 12:56:49 AM
As a side note ...there are various designations lets say on what people called carbonated beverages.
A northern term for example ..'pop'.
Saying someone was 'drinking a coke' could have applied to any variety of sodas and not necessarily Coca-Cola.
Someone has a soda in their hand --who analyzes, scrutinizes, or inspects exactly what brand?
In testimony [sidetracking] David Belin was a total jerk with his 25 question interrogation of Baker on what shirt Oswald was wearing. Baker was asked and he answered after the first question. The mentality was outrageous!   
Warren Report = (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 22, 2019, 01:21:36 AM
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Go to hell.... I have no time for your BS.....

Yeah, that's what I thought. Cakebread's full of crap (and empty claims), as usual. Just like in all these examples below, wherein I made Cakebread look like the conspiracy-happy fantasist that he is....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread

Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Tom Scully on February 22, 2019, 01:52:14 AM
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Provide me with a link that says Officer Baker (on 11/22/63) uttered the words "I saw Oswald drinking a Coke".

You won't be able to do that. But good luck trying.

What is this thread about, again? What is the expected outcome, in the best of all possible worlds, of the Oswald out in front obsession?
In the real world, this world, in practical (non fan-boy) terms, what is a reasonable expectation resulting from the influence of this rewrite
attempt, considering how many witness testimonies are required to be impeached for a skeptic like me to regard this as a practical (results
oriented) pursuit? I assisted Sean before he dropped out, by finding and sharing the high school yearbook photo of Bill Shelley.

Thia is not meant to be offensive, but after observing this  "movement" for close to six years now, its potential seems self serving
rather than creating any possibility of a consensus building outcome. The potential here seems extremely likely to result in the Pope convincing
his own choir, but no one outside the Vatican.

What can move entrenched minds. I impeached Armstrong's presentation premised on the Klein's postal money order being out of
sequence, but my research changed no minds. I blew up Janney's Crumb murder trial witness going missing after his 1965 trial testimony.
Albert/Brian Doyle aka Ralph Yates maintains it does not matter, despite my discovery directly causing author Janney to issue two revisions
to his fantasy novel, Mary's Mosaic.

Will the people consumed by this even consider it a masturbatory exercise, or do any involved sincerely expect the results to
change any minds, considering nothing changes their own opinions about any of their conclusions?
Would one of you stipulate to
the authenticity of the BYP under any circumstances, or for that matter, the Z-film? Why would you expect any image evidence you present
would influence anyone currently opposing your out in front image evidence, even if the images were high def with figures in dispute facing
the camera lense?


Example:
If you did not need Fritz's disclaimed (under oath) notes to support your beliefs, you would argue the notes are inadmissible.
Quote
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/fritz1.htm
....Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?
Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place. ....

.....Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."
Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?
Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola. ....

(Harry Holmes, from Sneed's "No More Silence"
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HarryHolmesSneedNoMoreSilencePg366.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/OswaldBakerNovember23News.jpg)

I no longer know this community, ever since it divided into at least two camps in regard to Sean's PM research detail.
In the meantime, I have gotten to know David and Jean much more. Despite Jean insisting RFK was on good terms with Dulles
after his brother fired him, and David being David, I find it much easier to influence them by sharing plain facts with either,
compared to the Armstrong supporters or those obsessed with who were or were not in front of the TSBD at 12:30.

In support of David's factually correct reply to Jerry's question in the OP:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59643&relPageId=2&search=marion_baker%20and%20rankin
(Note that the WC requests a signed statement. There is no stipulation as to format....a typed statemenr or one written in the  hand of
the signatory...., so what is the point of the challenges I have read in this thread. Is anyone challenging the auuthenticity of the signatures?)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/Oswald2ndFlrLocation0963Baker.jpg)
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 22, 2019, 01:57:37 AM
I don't advocate damnation over all this. Back to the topic-- There still seems to be a strong corroboration about the lunchroom encounter with the soda. Fritz notes ...Oswald said he went to get the soda after eating. Mrs Reid sees Oswald with the soda. Officer Baker did reference seeing Oswald with a soda. You want silliness? I saw this----
Quote
In the book, Conspiracy Of One (1990, The Summit Group), author Jim Moore presents a variety of reasons why he believes Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole assassin of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. One of those reasons is on page 53, detailing the period immediately after the assassination when Oswald was spotted in the lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository: Oswald...put a nickel in the soda machine and selected a Coca-Cola. It may be that this single action on Oswald's part holds the key to his guilt. Oswald habitually drank Dr Pepper. There can be only one realistic explanation for a miser like Oswald to fail to select his soft drink of choice-he was nervous. Three other possibilities exist, all unlikely: 1. Oswald really bought a Dr Pepper and every witness questioned recalled it as a Coca-Cola 2. The soda machine was out of Dr Pepper.
 3. The soda machine-a Coca-Cola product, malfunctioned in favor of its manufacturer.
"......every witness questioned recalled it as a Coca-Cola."----actually no one said it was a Coca Cola.
  See? Oswald was guilty because he indeed did have a coke  [It's the Real Thing]          :-\
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 22, 2019, 02:18:27 AM
Quote
In the book, Conspiracy Of One (1990, The Summit Group), author Jim Moore presents a variety of reasons why he believes Lee Harvey Oswald was the sole assassin of U.S. President John F. Kennedy. One of those reasons is on page 53, detailing the period immediately after the assassination when Oswald was spotted in the lunchroom of the Texas School Book Depository:

Oswald...put a nickel in the soda machine and selected a Coca-Cola. It may be that this single action on Oswald's part holds the key to his guilt. Oswald habitually drank Dr Pepper. There can be only one realistic explanation for a miser like Oswald to fail to select his soft drink of choice---he was nervous. Three other possibilities exist, all unlikely:

1. Oswald really bought a Dr Pepper and every witness questioned recalled it as a Coca-Cola.

2. The soda machine was out of Dr Pepper.

3. The soda machine---a Coca-Cola product---malfunctioned in favor of its manufacturer.


Of course, author Jim Moore, at the time he wrote the above statements in his book (1990 or earlier), had no idea that the Coke machine on the second floor very likely did not dispense "Dr. Pepper" at all....because it was later learned that the "Dr. Pepper" machine was located on the first floor and not the second. (See CD496; Photo 7 below.)

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=12

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/dr-pepper-talk.html
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 22, 2019, 02:33:04 AM
Quote from: Tom Scully
In support of David's factually correct reply to Jerry's question in the OP:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=59643&relPageId=2&search=marion_baker%20and%20rankin

Thanks for linking to that document, Tom. It gives me one more link to add to my "Baker/Coke" page at my site.

The version of that page that appears in CD1526 (below) doesn't include the last paragraph which verifies the reason for the WC wanting the Sept. '64 Baker/Truly statements....

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11921&relPageId=2
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2019, 06:04:52 AM
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Yes, of course he did.

Oswald knew he couldn't lie his way out of that question like he did with so many others that Fritz asked him. Oswald knew there were TWO other people who would confirm where the "encounter" took place, so he admitted it to Fritz.

Plus, he admitted it because he knew that just because he was in the lunchroom a minute or two after the shooting, that didn't have to mean he was the assassin. So he felt comfortable telling the truth (for once).

Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein!  Thumb1:

If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?

Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2019, 06:14:58 AM
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Do you believe that Mr Oswald confirmed this incident to Captain Fritz?

Yes... Hosty and Bookhout confirm that Oswald told them that he'd gone from the first floor to the second floor to buy a bottle of Coke from the vending machine. There would have been no reason for Lee to relate that trivial bit of info if He hadn't been encountered there by Baker.... On page 619 WR  Bookhout's report says....

"he was on the second floor of said building having just purchased a Coca Cola from the soft drink machine at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked if he worked there, Mr Truly was present and verified that he was an employee.".....

Thank you for your clear answer, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:

If Mr Oswald did confirm a post-shooting 2nd fl lunchroom incident, why then does Agent Hosty, in his unpublished notes below, tell us that Mr Oswald told them that, after buying a bottle of Coke from the vending machine, he "went outside to watch P. Parade"?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

A post-assassination Presidential Parade? Really?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2019, 06:19:19 AM
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What is this thread about, again? What is the expected outcome, in the best of all possible worlds, of the Oswald out in front obsession?

Hello Mr Scully!  Thumb1:

I guess some of us less sophisticated researchers hold the accused assassin's location at the time of the assassination to be a rather important issue.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 22, 2019, 07:36:35 AM
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Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein [sic]!  Thumb1:

If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?

Well, I'm not a mind-reader, so all I can do is provide my best guess on this. And I'm basing this "best guess" on the fact that in none of the final typed-up reports of any of the people who heard Oswald being interrogated by Captain Fritz (Bookhout, Hosty, Holmes, Kelley, and Fritz himself) do we find anything about Oswald saying he went "outside to watch the Presidential parade".

So my best guess is:

I think James Hosty's "went outside to watch P. Parade" note was very likely referring to a point in time that was AFTER the assassination, not before (even though Hosty used the words "P[residential] Parade"). That note is likely referring to the "out with Bill Shelley in front" situation (which appears in Captain Fritz' notes).

And that "out with Shelley" chronology, according to James Bookhout's solo FBI report that appears on Page 619 of the Warren Report, is clearly something that occurred after the assassination and after Oswald's encounter with the policeman on the second floor.

With respect to why there are two separate FBI reports regarding some of this same information, well, I think it's quite possible that the two FBI agents involved in the first report (Hosty and Bookhout), after filing that first report (dictated on Nov. 23), realized that a relevant and important piece of information (the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter) had not been included in that first joint Hosty/Bookhout report. Therefore, the necessity arose for a second report to be written which would include the information about Oswald being stopped by the police on the second floor (which became the "solo Bookhout" report that was dictated a day later, on Nov. 24).

But please keep this in mind....

The Warren Commission didn't HIDE or DESTROY either of those two FBI reports. The Commission didn't conceal their existence from the public. Both of those reports---warts, omissions, and all---are readily available for anyone to view and can easily be found right there in the Warren Commission's final report, just a few pages apart in Appendix XI.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2019, 08:01:13 AM
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Well, I'm not a mind-reader, so all I can do is provide my best guess on this. And I'm basing this "best guess" on the fact that in none of the final typed-up reports of any of the people who heard Oswald being interrogated by Captain Fritz (Bookhout, Hosty, Holmes, Kelley, and Fritz himself) do we find anything about Oswald saying he went "outside to watch the Presidential parade".

So my best guess is:

I think James Hosty's "went outside to watch P. Parade" note was very likely referring to a point in time that was AFTER the assassination, not before (even though Hosty used the words "P[residential] Parade"). That note is likely referring to the "out with Bill Shelley in front" situation (which appears in Captain Fritz' notes).

And that "out with Shelley" chronology, according to James Bookhout's solo FBI report that appears on Page 619 of the Warren Report, is clearly something that occurred after the assassination and after Oswald's encounter with the policeman on the second floor.

With respect to why there are two separate FBI reports regarding some of this same information, well, I think it's quite possible that the two FBI agents involved in the first report (Hosty and Bookhout), after filing that first report (dictated on Nov. 23), realized that a relevant and important piece of information (the 2nd-floor lunchroom encounter) had not been included in that first joint Hosty/Bookhout report. Therefore, the necessity arose for a second report to be written which would include the information about Oswald being stopped by the police on the second floor (which became the "solo Bookhout" report that was dictated a day later, on Nov. 24).

But please keep this in mind....

The Warren Commission didn't HIDE or DESTROY either of those two FBI reports. The Commission didn't conceal their existence from the public. Both of those reports---warts, omissions, and all---are readily available for anyone to view and can easily be found right there in the Warren Commission's final report, just a few pages apart in Appendix XI.

Oh dear, Mr von Pein, this is most unconvincing!

The devastating words in Agent Hosty's notes about Mr Oswald's claim about a pre-motorcade visit to the 2nd fl lunchroom and about going "outside to watch P. Parade" were concealed from the public. They are nowhere to be found in the Warren Commission's final report. And Agent Hosty, in his Warren Commission testimony, lied about what Mr Oswald had said: he told the commission that Mr Oswald had claimed to have been in the domino room at the time of the motorcade!

Your response to this revelation? As usual when it comes to anything that might threaten the official story of the assassination, you show yourself constitutionally incapable of either seeing evil or hearing evil!

What do you do when presented with new evidence where it is stated in the clearest terms possible by Agent Hosty that Mr Oswald claimed to have gone out to "watch the P. Parade"? You reassure yourself that Agent Hosty must have been so utterly stupid that he would misunderstand or misremember what the accused assassin of President Kennedy had said when asked where he had been at the time of the assassination.

This is not your 'best guess', Mr von Pein, it's merely your best wilful misreading of Agent Hosty's words: "Then went outside to watch P. Parade". You do know what the verb "watch" means, right? And the adjective "Presidential"? And the noun "Parade"?

You did, in fairness, get one thing right: "in none of the final typed-up reports of any of the people who heard Oswald being interrogated by Captain Fritz ... do we find anything about Oswald saying he went 'outside to watch the Presidential parade'". Your failure to draw the obvious conclusion from this silence tells us only how extraordinarily gullible you are.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 22, 2019, 08:54:57 AM
Quote from: Alan Ford
The devastating words in Agent Hosty's notes about Mr Oswald's claim about a pre-motorcade visit to the 2nd fl lunchroom and about going "outside to watch P. Parade" were concealed from the public.

But there was no real need for the authorities to want to hide the fact that Oswald said he went outside to watch the parade (if, in fact, he really DID say those words, which I doubt very much, since nobody wrote those words in ANY official report at all).

Since the law enforcement people involved in this case knew that Oswald lied about so many other things during his interrogation (with those lies being made public), why would the WC or FBI feel the need to hide ONE MORE LIE coming from the lips of the accused Presidential assassin? The authorities had lots of evidence to charge LHO with JFK's murder within 12 hours of the crime. And they knew he was going to lie his ass off. That was obvious right from the start. So what's one more lie?

Do you REALLY think the DPD and FBI knew for a fact that Oswald really was standing outside on the steps when JFK was shot, and that the "Prayer Man" theorists were going to surface in the future with their "bombshell" evidence in the form of the blurry Darnell Film that they say proves Oswald was in the doorway? And is that why the authorities concealed Hosty's note from the world until 2018 when Mr. Blunt dug it out?

And, BTW, why didn't the cover-uppers just destroy that Hosty note? If it's the "key" to the WC story crumbling into dust, why did "they" leave that bread crumb for Blunt to find?

CTers never answer logical questions like that, do they?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2019, 09:02:04 AM
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But there was no real need for the authorities to want to hide the fact that Oswald said he went outside to watch the parade (if, in fact, he really DID say those words, which I'm doubting he did, since nobody wrote those words in ANY official report at all).

But since Oswald lied about so many other things during his interrogation, why would the WC or FBI feel the need to hide just ONE MORE LIE from the lips of the accused Presidential assassin.

Because it wasn't a lie, and they knew it.

Those less gullible than you, Mr von Pein, understand the significance of the Hosty note. And they see the pathetic circularity of your reasoning: We know that Oswald shot JFK, therefore nothing that points to his not having shot JFK can be taken seriously.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 22, 2019, 09:16:41 AM
The problem that you (and all CTers) have is: There's just too much stuff on the "Oswald Did It" table for you to skirt around (including the Tippit murder evidence too, which only a hopelessly fanatical CTer can possibly deny was committed by Oswald).

You can try and pretend that it's all fake and phony evidence, but reasonable people can see that's just a convenient cop-out. And that evidence isn't going anywhere---regardless of Prayer Man and the Hosty note.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 12:07:22 PM
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The problem that you (and all CTers) have is: There's just too much stuff on the "Oswald Did It" table for you to skirt around (including the Tippit murder evidence too, which only a hopelessly fanatical CTer can possibly deny was committed by Oswald).

You can try and pretend that it's all fake and phony evidence, but reasonable people can see that's just a convenient cop-out. And that evidence isn't going anywhere---regardless of Prayer Man and the Hosty note.

Let's get right to the point Mr Von Pea Brain....You're FOS!     Very few are going to accept the BS you spew.    We've heard it for nearly six decades and after all of those years  the vast majority still refuse to buy the lie.....  So rave on Pea Brain.....you're voice is getting weaker everyday...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 01:03:14 PM
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Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein!  Thumb1:

If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?

I believe that Hosty was a bit confused ( due to his panic caused by Oswald being caught) He had been chewed out and ordered over to the DPD by Hoover less than an hour earlier, and he was trying to clear the FBI of any failure that could have led to the murder of the President.   ( He wasn't smart enough and wasn't the agent for the job)

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Years later he was still trying to clean up some of the mess he made when he wrote the book "Assignment : Oswald" in 2011....On page 23 of his book Hosty wrote about the interrogation of Lee Oswald that was conducted ( pun)   at 3:15  11/22 /63 ...
Quote on...
 
Where were you when the president went by the depository?
"I was eating my lunch in the first floor lunchroom."
Were you ever on the second floor around the time the president was shot?
"Well Yeah, I went up there to get a bottle of Coca- Cola from the machine for my lunch."
But where were you when the president actually passed your building?
"On the first floor in the lunchroom"

Quote off...

There can be no doubt that Lee Oswald went to the second floor and had a coke in his hand when Baker and Truly encountered him in the second floor lunchroom.

About a week after the coup d e'tat a reporter from the magazine US News and World Report was at the TSBD talking to Roy Truly ....

Truly told the reporter that Lee was in he second floor lunch room calmly DRINKING A COCA - COLA when Baker opened the door to the lunchroom and demanded to know what Oswald was doing there.....

This interview took place before anybody knew that there was a huge problem with the theory that Lee had ran from the SE corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom after the shooting.


Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
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Because it wasn't a lie, and they knew it.

Those less gullible than you, Mr von Pein, understand the significance of the Hosty note. And they see the pathetic circularity of your reasoning: We know that Oswald shot JFK, therefore nothing that points to his not having shot JFK can be taken seriously.

Those less gullible than you, Mr von Pein, understand the significance of the Hosty note.

Alan.... Von PB isn't gullible...... ( Hells Bells,  a little 8 year old kid isn't THAT gullible....)   He's an arrogant, egotistical, liar.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 01:24:25 PM
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Yeah, that's what I thought. Cakebread's full of crap (and empty claims), as usual. Just like in all these examples below, wherein I made Cakebread look like the conspiracy-happy fantasist that he is....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread

Attention Please....   All readers of this thread .... Please click on the link that Von Pea Brain provided....   It's a golden example of Von P's ignorance. 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 22, 2019, 01:55:30 PM
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Attention Please....   All readers of this thread .... Please click on the link that Von Pea Brain provided....   It's a golden example of Von P's ignorance.

Says Foghorn Leghorn. The one member of this forum with a thread dedicated to his fabrications.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 02:14:05 PM
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Says Foghorn Leghorn. The one member of this forum with a thread dedicated to his fabrications.

You're jealous....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2019, 02:55:27 PM
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I believe that Hosty was a bit confused [...]

No offence, Mr Cakebread, but it is beyond silly to suggest that Agent Hosty would have misunderstood or misremembered the prime suspect's startling claim to have been out front at the time of the shooting. And he most certainly wouldn't have fabricated such a claim.

"Then went outside to watch the P. Parade": this is what Mr Oswald claimed. No question about it.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 03:25:11 PM
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No offence, Mr Cakebread, but it is beyond silly to suggest that Agent Hosty would have misunderstood or misremembered the prime suspect's startling claim to have been out front at the time of the shooting. And he most certainly wouldn't have fabricated such a claim.

"Then went outside to watch the P. Parade": this is what Mr Oswald claimed. No question about it.

it is beyond silly to suggest that Agent Hosty would have misunderstood or misremembered the prime suspect's startling claim to have been out front at the time of the shooting.

Who suggested that Lee claimed that he was out in front at the time of the murder???

Please read Bookhouts report on page 619 of the WR......

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0322a.htm

Bookhout wrote....that After the encounter with Officer Baker and Roy Truly, Lee took his coke down to the first floor and then went outside and stood around with Foreman Bill Shelly.

I'm not particularly interested in what action Lee took after the encounter with Baker.....  I'm focused on the FACT that Lee Oswald had already obtained a Coca-Cola from the vending machine and was CALMLY DRINKING A COKE when Baker burst into the lunchroom.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 03:42:13 PM
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Says Foghorn Leghorn. The one member of this forum with a thread dedicated to his fabrications.

So you support Mr Von Pea Brain in his stance that the lead from the core of a jacketed bullet will have the grooves from the rifling in the barrel of the rifle from which the bullet was fired ....and there fore the tiny pieces of lead core that were found in the Limo could be traced to the rifle....

If you believe that ....You undoubtedly hop outta bed on Easter Sunday and run out to find the pretty eggs the Easter Bunny has left.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 04:02:08 PM
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No offence, Mr Cakebread, but it is beyond silly to suggest that Agent Hosty would have misunderstood or misremembered the prime suspect's startling claim to have been out front at the time of the shooting. And he most certainly wouldn't have fabricated such a claim.

"Then went outside to watch the P. Parade": this is what Mr Oswald claimed. No question about it.

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Thanks for posting the scribbled notes of FBI Agent James Hosty....( can you post all of his scribbled notes ?)   

After reading Hosty's notes I believe that he's saying that Lee said that he went outside to watch the parade and he ( Lee) wasn't even aware that JFK had been murdered when he left the lunchroom after the Baker Truly Encounter.  IOW.... Lee was unaware of the shooting until he got outside....  And even then he didn't get excited about the event.....He simply assumed that someone had set off some firecrackers and the spectators imaginations were running wild....And that's not all that far fetched...  He had witnessed NONE of it....So he didn't really believe it, but What the hell...It was a good excuse to go to a cool theater and rest..... 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Oscar Navarro on February 22, 2019, 05:56:23 PM
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So you support Mr Von Pea Brain in his stance that the lead from the core of a jacketed bullet will have the grooves from the rifling in the barrel of the rifle from which the bullet was fired ....and there fore the tiny pieces of lead core that were found in the Limo could be traced to the rifle....

If you believe that ....You undoubtedly hop outta bed on Easter Sunday and run out to find the pretty eggs the Easter Bunny has left.....

If it's true (and that's a big IF since it just may be an additional fabrication from the king of fabrications) then the answer would probably be no* but CE-569 was found by both the WC and HSCA experts to have been fired from CE-139. One thing is for sure. I'll place my money on DVP over Foghorn Leghorn (you) when it comes to anything that requires critical thought.

*The opinion of a layman on the subject
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Tom Scully on February 22, 2019, 06:24:04 PM
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Hello Mr Scully!  Thumb1:

I guess some of us less sophisticated researchers hold the accused assassin's location at the time of the assassination to be a rather important issue.


Disciplining myself to avoid straying an appreciable distance from the reasonable person standard/POV has worked for me so far.
Quote
Reasonable person standard legal definition of Reasonable person ...
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+person+standard
Reasonable Person. A phrase frequently used in tort and Criminal Law to denote a hypothetical person in society who exercises average care, skill, and judgment in conduct and who serves as a comparative standard for determining liability.
There are common sense reasons to pick the low hanging fruit and otherwise take small bites. This approach actually yields tangible results,
often rather quickly, vs the results, to date, of those seeking dramatic break through, if only a better defined image can be identified or
conjured, with the expectation it will impeach the consistent testimony of a busload and a half of mostly now deceased witnesses.

I have come to regard it as a disinfo distraction campaign, possibly not even by intent but the results so far speak for themselves.

History can be your friend if you permit the lessons it offers to influence your approach. I don't feel special enough to exempt myself
from the limitations of the reasonable person standard because the reasonable person is who my evidence supported argument must
win over,
not those who maintain the BYP or the Z-Film were fakes but earnestly expect to change history if only Doyle, et al can present
an adequately enhanced image in support of an appetizing word salad.

55 years on, or 130 years after their testimonies, the hypocrisy of weighing image evidence as I described above is actually the least
of the challenge in what I expect is a futile pursuit and thus a distraction at least as counter productive as Harvey & Lee.
IOW, those you are required to persuade are not in the JFK Assassination research community.
Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/local/1995/05/27/md-judge-tells-revisionists-to-let-booth-history-rest-in-peace/d6aa09f2-ddd6-4ea1-8674-fde6b3c6d9b1/?utm_term=.b5351fd01481
MD. JUDGE TELLS REVISIONISTS TO LET BOOTH, HISTORY REST IN PEACE
By Paul W. Valentine May 27, 1995
......Kaplan said (the dead body of) Booth, the dashing 26-year-old Shakespearean actor who fatally shot Lincoln at Ford's Theatre in Washington on April 14, 1865, was repeatedly identified by numerous friends, relatives and officials. Evidence in the historical record that the fleeing Booth was captured and killed 12 days later in a tobacco barn near Bowling Green, Va., and was "positively identified" in ensuing days "is indeed convincing," Kaplan said.....
In your reply to me I detected a hint of smugness. I will not apologize for trying to be results oriented and making the verifiable facts my
priority, even when they contradict my suspicions of the motives and pronouncements of authority.
I got booted from the Ed Forum because I offended the forum's founder by putting him in a position in which he could not defend (protect)
his incompetent author friend with a factual argument. Most were gushing over the author's poorly researched book as if it was a
game changer. Here is Douglas Horne's reaction to my research results related to that book.:
(I incorrectly assumed a law professor would not wish to maintain a factually inaccurate article he authored  and presented on
his university's website. Boy, was I naive!)
Quote
https://digitalcommons.law.uga.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1152&context=fac_pm
5-30-2012
The Unsolved Murder of JFK's Mistress
Donald E. Wilkes Jr.
University of Georgia School of Law, wilkes@uga.edu

...In fact, however, this was not the true
name of the witness, whose actual identity remains unknown; whoever he was, he was
not in the Army, and he was not a teacher at Georgetown. "Mitchell," who testified that
his home address was an apartment building now known to have been a CIA safe house,
disappeared from history shortly after the trial. He left no forwarding address, and there
are no official records, including military records, showing that he ever existed.
"Mitchell" had to have been an undercover intelligence operative, presumably with the
CIA.
(Janney, it should be noted, thinks "Mitchell" likely was the assassin hired by the
CIA who shot Meyer.)
..
Quote
Mary's Mosaic: The CIA Conspiracy to Murder John F. Kennedy, Mary ...
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1510708936 (https://www.google.com/search?q=mary%27s+mosaic+rational+voice&source=lnms&tbm=Bary Kamps&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnksXV_M_gAhUFH6wKHTbpAiAQ_AUIFCgB&biw=1240&bih=610)
Peter Janney - 2016
FOUND INSIDE
... written by a DiEugenio prot?g? whose name, I discovered, was Tom Scully, but he would identify himself on Amazon only as ?Rational Voice.? Discussing his critical post of Mary's Mosaic in an email to a University of Georgia law professor, ...
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JanneyDiEugenioProtegeCrop.jpg)
Psychologist Dr. Peter Janney, ARRB military liason Doug Horne, a UGA law professor, and the esteemed historian John Simkin
indifferent (to say the least....) to new discovery of verifiable fact? Tell me it ain't so!
(http://jfkforum.com/images/JanneyHorneReacts.jpg)
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 22, 2019, 07:12:15 PM
Scully ignored the 3 or 4 times I called him out on the Deep Politics forum and asked him to honestly respond to the evidence I collected that him and Jim D were ignoring in their tag team bashing of Janney...My evidence that I caught Scully and Jim ignoring proved that their claim Janney wasn't credible was what wasn't credible and that the two bashers were offering a dishonest case against Janney...Both Jim D and Scully have yet to honestly answer my proof...

Myself, I discovered a new witness to Oswald with a Coke in my interview of Sarah Stanton's relatives last June...My evidence is being ignored and being treated like it never existed...That soda Sarah Stanton saw Oswald drinking confirms the Coke Jim D was in denial of just like he was in denial of Janney...I have yet to see Jim D respond to this which shows how crooked he is and how he tries to bully and use useful idiots to form his own reality around him...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 07:57:11 PM
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If it's true (and that's a big IF since it just may be an additional fabrication from the king of fabrications) then the answer would probably be no* but CE-569 was found by both the WC and HSCA experts to have been fired from CE-139. One thing is for sure. I'll place my money on DVP over Foghorn Leghorn (you) when it comes to anything that requires critical thought.

*The opinion of a layman on the subject

I'll place my money on DVP over Foghorn Leghorn (you) when it comes to anything that requires critical thought. Thumb1:


Thank you....An open admission that you can't think for yourself.     That's no surprise ... It's obvious to everybody who has read your posts.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 22, 2019, 08:26:35 PM
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(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Thanks for posting the scribbled notes of FBI Agent James Hosty....( can you post all of his scribbled notes ?)   

After reading Hosty's notes I believe that he's saying that Lee said that he went outside to watch the parade and he ( Lee) wasn't even aware that JFK had been murdered when he left the lunchroom after the Baker Truly Encounter.  IOW.... Lee was unaware of the shooting until he got outside....

So Mr Oswald had a cop put a pistol to his gut and ask him if he worked there, and shortly after this had Mrs Reid tell him, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him", and then went outside thinking he was going to catch the Presidential parade?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 22, 2019, 08:30:16 PM
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Thanks for posting the scribbled notes of FBI Agent James Hosty....( can you post all of his scribbled notes ?)   
I've never seen this notes before.  Is there a link? I know that he had written a book.
 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 08:47:05 PM
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So Mr Oswald had a cop put a pistol to his gut and ask him if he worked there, and shortly after this had Mrs Reid tell him, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him", and then went outside thinking he was going to catch the Presidential parade?

Alan....May I remind you that your using the testimony that was extracted from Mrs Reid....   We have no real absolute proof that Mrs reid actually saw Lee Oswald and said to him "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",
I'll grant that is what she stated in her testimony ....But that doesn't prove that she did not make it up out of thin air on the afternoon of the assassination.

It could have been nothing but an innocuous remark by Mrs Reid, which she intended as an insertion of herself into the scene. Many people ( particularly older women ) like to embroidery and place themselves near an exciting event...  Mrs Reid could easily have said..." My goodness...He walked right past me just a couple of minutes after the shooting.   I didn't suspect that he had just shot JFK, when I said . Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",

But once she said that she couldn't very well say....."Oh, I just made that up for the girls in the office".....

Belin NEEDED mrs Reid's testimony....and he wasn't about to challenge her....in fact he encouraged her.....
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 22, 2019, 08:53:36 PM
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Alan....May I remind you that your using the testimony that was extracted from Mrs Reid....   We have no real absolute proof that Mrs reid actually saw Lee Oswald and said to him "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",
I'll grant that is what she stated in her testimony ....But that doesn't prove that she made it up out of thin air on the afternoon of the assassination.

It could have been nothing but an innocuous remark by Mrs Reid, which she intended as an insertion of herself into the scene. Many people ( particularly older women ) like to embroidery and place themselves near an exciting event...  Mrs Reid could easily have said..." My goodness...He walked right past me just a couple of minutes after the shooting.   I didn't suspect that he had just shot JFK, when I said . Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",

But once she said that she couldn't very well say....."Oh, I just made that up for the girls in the office".....

Belin NEEDED mrs Reid's testimony....and he wasn't about to challenge her....in fact he encouraged her.....


Walt ignores that Karen Westbrook told Fagin in her 6th Floor Museum interview that she witnessed Mrs Reid tell the other detained employees in the 2nd floor office corral that she had seen Oswald come from the lunch room with a Coke...This was only minutes after it had happened...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 22, 2019, 09:10:52 PM
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So Mr Oswald had a cop put a pistol to his gut and ask him if he worked there, and shortly after this had Mrs Reid tell him, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him", and then went outside thinking he was going to catch the Presidential parade?
Not really in evidence that one event was prior to the other.
Quote
Mr. BELIN. And then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. REID. That is right.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you?
Mrs. REID. Approximately 2 minutes.
Mr. DULLES. I didn't hear you.
Mrs. REID. Two minutes.
Mr. BELIN. From the time of the last shot the time you and Oswald crossed?
Mrs. REID. Yes; I believe that is the way we timed it.
Mr. BELIN. When you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop it there, right?
Mrs. REID. Yes.[/b]
Mr. BELIN. When you met in the lunchroom--
Mrs. REID. I didn't meet him in the lunchroom.

  Seems there that Oswald was just wandering around from the first floor to the second. Belin couldn't accept it. All those [joined at the hip with the Report] can't accept it.
Quote
BELIN. Was the coke full or empty?
Drinking an empty bottle?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 09:28:54 PM
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Walt ignores that Karen Westbrook told Fagin in her 6th Floor Museum interview that she witnessed Mrs Reid tell the other detained employees in the 2nd floor office corral that she had seen Oswald come from the lunch room with a Coke...This was only minutes after it had happened...

The question remains....Did someone witness Mrs Reid and Lee Oswald passing and did they hear her say anything to Lee??

Lee was the other party and he definitely could have used another incident to support his alibi.....  Bu Lee never mentioned any such encounter.....But he did remember meeting a man who was seeking a telephone....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 22, 2019, 09:37:55 PM
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Not really in evidence that one event was prior to the other.
  Seems there that Oswald was just wandering around from the first floor to the second. Belin couldn't accept it. All those [joined at the hip with the Report] can't accept it.  Drinking an empty bottle?
Drinking an empty bottle?

That was simply a slimy lawyers trick to call attention to the bottle of coke to lend credibility to Mrs Reid's story.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 22, 2019, 11:31:59 PM
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So you support Mr Von Pea Brain in his stance that the lead from the core of a jacketed bullet will have the grooves from the rifling in the barrel of the rifle from which the bullet was fired ....and therefore the tiny pieces of lead core that were found in the Limo could be traced to the rifle....

I never have said that the TINY little fragments of bullet (which were found under Nellie Connally's seat) "could be traced to the rifle". I've never implied any such ludicrous thing. But the two larger fragments found in the front seat of the limo both had enough of the copper jacket attached to them so that the FBI could positively link both fragments to the C2766 rifle. [See the pics in the article below.]

Cakebread loses again.......as per the norm.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/09/ce567-and-ce569.html
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Mike Orr on February 22, 2019, 11:52:49 PM
Of course we know that the timeline did not allow for LHO to have the time to get the change out of his pocket and get a coke out of the coke machine and then be standing there calm with a coke in his hand while Baker has a gun pointing at him . The hits just keep on coming !
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Tom Scully on February 23, 2019, 12:02:46 AM
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I've never seen this notes before.  Is there a link? I know that he had written a book.
You will grow old awaiting responsiveness from Walt.... but to be fair, the original source link he likely obtained the note image excerpt
he posted is probably verboten to post on this forum.
A Link (https://books.google.com/books?id=Eoi7x5i_bDkC&pg=PT40&dq=by+james+hosty+now+when+the+police+apprehended+you&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ7OLYxNDgAhUNmuAKHV5YDcUQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=by%20james%20hosty%20now%20when%20the%20police%20apprehended%20you&f=false)
Assignment: Oswald
By James P. Hosty, Thomas Hosty
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationTranscribed.jpg)

http://www.jfklancer.com/Hosty_Notes.html
http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/hostynotes_LHO.gif
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 12:25:32 AM
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I never have said that the TINY little fragments of bullet (which were found under Nellie Connally's seat) "could be traced to the rifle". I've never implied any such ludicrous thing. But the two larger fragments found in the front seat of the limo both had enough of the copper jacket attached to them so that the FBI could positively link both fragments to the C2766 rifle. [See the pics in the article below.]

Cakebread loses again.......as per the norm.

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/09/ce567-and-ce569.html


the two larger fragments found in the front seat of the limo both had enough of the copper jacket attached to them so that the FBI could positively link both fragments to the C2766 rifle. [See the pics in the article below.]


Utter Bull Stuff!!..... You're either very stupid, or a damned liar....Von Pea Brain.  ( Actually I believe that you're  stupid... and a damned liar.)

Perhaps you've never heard the conversation between Hoover and LBJ  in which Hoover tells LBJ that the fragments from the limo are useless as evidence to verify they had been fired from the rifle.   In reality Hoover was telling LBJ not to wory because nobody could prove that the fragments had NOT been fired from "Oswald's"   carcano (CE 139)


Those fragments indicate that the rifle owned by Lee H. Oswald was the weapon that killed President John F. Kennedy.

This is your big opportunity Pea Brain.....  DEMONSTRATE how those fragments could be used to determine the groove width, twist rate, and any identifying  machine marks from the rifle's barrel.... Or even simpler....Tell us how   YOU can determine the caliber of the bullet....

C'mon big mouth....Step right up and show the world that you're smarter then any ballistics expert in the world....



Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 01:02:03 AM
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Of course we know that the timeline did not allow for LHO to have the time to get the change out of his pocket and get a coke out of the coke machine and then be standing there calm with a coke in his hand while Baker has a gun pointing at him . The hits just keep on coming !

Mike, I'm happy to see someone who doesn't repeat the BS about Baker having his revolver jammed in Lee's belly....  I doubt that Baker even had the revolver pointed at Lee....I can accept that Baker had his revolver in his hand...but as far as actually having it aimed at Lee...I doubt it....And I scoff at the idea that he had the revolver jammed in Lee's belly.
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 01:15:53 AM
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The question remains....Did someone witness Mrs Reid and Lee Oswald passing and did they hear her say anything to Lee??

Lee was the other party and he definitely could have used another incident to support his alibi.....  Bu Lee never mentioned any such encounter.....But he did remember meeting a man who was seeking a telephone....

Yes...Holmes indirectly as well as Lovelady by means of Jarman...

So you are saying Mrs Reid decided to make up a nutty hoax and tell it to the other office ladies minutes after it happened?

Lee wasn't the one who was interviewed, Harvey was...The reason Harvey never told of the Mrs Reid event is because he never witnessed it, it was Lee - which in turn is proof of its real-ness...

Shows how poor an understanding you have of all this...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 23, 2019, 01:19:45 AM
@Creepy Walt:

It depends on which of the "Limo Fragments" you're talking about at any given time. The TINY little fragments under Nellie's seat couldn't be traced to the Carcano, no. Nobody ever said they could be.

But the two larger fragments (CE567 and 569) were definitely fired from Oswald's rifle, as per the testimony of Bob Frazier of the FBI....

JOHN J. McCLOY - And you would say the same thing of Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet 399 was fired from that rifle?

ROBERT A. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY - And the fragment 567---

Mr. FRAZIER - 567, the one we have just finished.

Mr. McCLOY - Was likewise a portion of a bullet fired from that rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY - You have no doubt about any of those?

Mr. FRAZIER - None whatsoever.

[...]

MELVIN EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet fragment with a view to determining whether it had been fired from the rifle, Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG - What was your conclusion?

Mr. FRAZIER - This bullet fragment, Exhibit 569, was fired from this particular rifle, 139.

Mr. EISENBERG - Again to the exclusion of all other rifles?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.


----------------------------

Let me guess----Creepy Kook Cakebread thinks Robert A. Frazier of the Federal Bureau of Investigation was nothing but a big fat liar! Right, Cakebread?

----------------------------

And there's also the testimony of the independent firearms expert, Joseph Nicol....

JOSEPH D. NICOL. Yes. It is my opinion that the same weapon that fired Commission's Exhibit 572 also fired the projectiles in Commission's Exhibits 569, 567, and 399.

Mr. EISENBERG. That would be to the exclusion of all other weapons?

Mr. NICOL. Correct.


----------------------------

Let me guess----Creepy Kook Cakebread thinks Joseph D. Nicol was nothing but a big fat liar too! Right, Cakebread?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 01:26:32 AM
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Yes...Holmes indirectly as well as Lovelady by means of Jarman...

So you are saying Mrs Reid decided to make up a nutty hoax and tell it to the other office ladies minutes after it happened?

Lee wasn't the one who was interviewed Harvey was...The reason Harvey never told of the Mrs Reid event is because he never witnessed it, it was Lee - which in turn is proof of its real-ness...

Shows how poor an understanding you have of all this...

Shows how poor an understanding you have of all this...

Well...We've finally found a point on which we agree.....cuz... I sure as hell don't understand how anybody who isn't a guest at some rubber walled hotel, could believe that there were two Lee Harvey Oswald's.   

It's one of the wackiest ideas ever conjured .......
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 01:51:36 AM
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@Creepy Walt:

It depends on which of the "Limo Fragments" you're talking about at any given time. The TINY little fragments under Nellie's seat couldn't be traced to the Carcano, no. Nobody ever said they could be.

But the two larger fragments (CE567 and 569) were definitely fired from Oswald's rifle, as per the testimony of Bob Frazier of the FBI....

JOHN J. McCLOY - And you would say the same thing of Commission Exhibit 399, the bullet 399 was fired from that rifle?

ROBERT A. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY - And the fragment 567---

Mr. FRAZIER - 567, the one we have just finished.

Mr. McCLOY - Was likewise a portion of a bullet fired from that rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. McCLOY - You have no doubt about any of those?

Mr. FRAZIER - None whatsoever.

[...]

MELVIN EISENBERG - Mr. Frazier, did you examine this bullet fragment with a view to determining whether it had been fired from the rifle, Exhibit 139?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.

Mr. EISENBERG - What was your conclusion?

Mr. FRAZIER - This bullet fragment, Exhibit 569, was fired from this particular rifle, 139.

Mr. EISENBERG - Again to the exclusion of all other rifles?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.


----------------------------

Let me guess----Creepy Kook Cakebread thinks Robert A. Frazier of the Federal Bureau of Investigation was nothing but a big fat liar! Right, Cakebread?

----------------------------

And there's also the testimony of the independent firearms expert, Joseph Nicol....

JOSEPH D. NICOL. Yes. It is my opinion that the same weapon that fired Commission's Exhibit 572 also fired the projectiles in Commission's Exhibits 569, 567, and 399.

Mr. EISENBERG. That would be to the exclusion of all other weapons?

Mr. NICOL. Correct.


----------------------------

Let me guess----Creepy Kook Cakebread thinks Joseph D. Nicol was nothing but a big fat liar too! Right, Cakebread?

Hoover's lap dog....Robert Frazier??   You've got to be kidding.....He's a bigger liar than you....( and that's something hard to find)

But apparently you're too stupid to understand that I asked YOU (David Von Pea Brain) to demonstrate how YOU can show us how YOU can determine the groove width, the twist rate, and the caliber of the fragments in the photos that YOU posted.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 23, 2019, 04:02:15 AM
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  TINY little fragments of bullet (which were found under Nellie Connally's seat)   
Were they ever entered as exhibits?
Quote
The Rifle Bullets
In addition to the three cartridge cases found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, a nearly whole bullet was found on Governor Connally's stretcher and two bullet fragments were found in the front of the President's car. 40 The stretcher bullet weighed 158.6 grains, or several grains less than the average Western Cartridge Co. 6.5-millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano bullet.41 It was slightly flattened, but otherwise unmutilated. 42 The two bullet fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains, respectively. 43 The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose area, as shown by its rounded contour and the
character of the markings it bore. 44 The lighter fragment consisted of bullet's base portion, as shown by its shape and by the presence of a cannelure. 45 The two fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose of one bullet or of two separate bullets. 46 However, each had sufficient unmutilated area to provide the basis of an identification. 47 Based on a comparison with test bullets fired from the C2766 rifle, the stretcher bullet and both bullet fragments were identified as having been fired from the C2766 rifle. 48
I don't really know how they did all that. I read something about neutron activated or maybe it was spectroscopy or some sort of scientific analysis...but anyway, I read something about Hoover saying that the analytical differences were very close in identity. From what I understand...any difference at all is a bust in the process of complete identification. To proclaim with great certainty that a bullet was found on Connally's stretcher is quite a stretch in itself ...but then there are plenty of threads already running on that. This thread has been hijacked [as usual] so I might as well join in.

 
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 05:08:31 AM
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Shows how poor an understanding you have of all this...

Well...We've finally found a point on which we agree.....cuz... I sure as hell don't understand how anybody who isn't a guest at some rubber walled hotel, could believe that there were two Lee Harvey Oswald's.   

It's one of the wackiest ideas ever conjured .......

You have a tendency to name-call and generalize when confronted by real points you can't answer...

Still waiting for you to answer the evidence...

Harvey never told of Mrs Reid because that encounter was had by Lee in the white T-shirt...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: David Von Pein on February 23, 2019, 05:22:11 AM
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Hoover's lap dog....Robert Frazier??   You've got to be kidding.....He's a...liar.

Why of course he is. He said something that Cakebread The Kook doesn't like....so, he's automatically a big fat liar! (What a surprise!)

~yawn~
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2019, 10:01:45 AM
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Alan....May I remind you that your using the testimony that was extracted from Mrs Reid....   We have no real absolute proof that Mrs reid actually saw Lee Oswald and said to him "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",
I'll grant that is what she stated in her testimony ....But that doesn't prove that she did not make it up out of thin air on the afternoon of the assassination.

It could have been nothing but an innocuous remark by Mrs Reid, which she intended as an insertion of herself into the scene. Many people ( particularly older women ) like to embroidery and place themselves near an exciting event...  Mrs Reid could easily have said..." My goodness...He walked right past me just a couple of minutes after the shooting.   I didn't suspect that he had just shot JFK, when I said . Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him",

But once she said that she couldn't very well say....."Oh, I just made that up for the girls in the office".....

Belin NEEDED mrs Reid's testimony....and he wasn't about to challenge her....in fact he encouraged her.....

You're halfway there, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:

Mr Oswald visited the 2nd fl lunchroom for a coke before the assassination. Carolyn Arnold & Sarah Stanton saw him there.

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

The encounter with Officer Baker and Mr Truly happened at the front entrance. Mr Oswald was one of the people Officer Baker saw 'standing around' there when he dashed into the building.

This incident was covered up by being moved to the 2nd fl lunchroom. Mr Oswald's reported claims in custody were amended accordingly.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2019, 11:10:11 AM
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You're halfway there, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:

Mr Oswald visited the 2nd fl lunchroom for a coke before the assassination. Carolyn Arnold & Sarah Stanton saw him there.

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

The encounter with Officer Baker and Mr Truly happened at the front entrance. Mr Oswald was one of the people Officer Baker saw 'standing around' there when he dashed into the building.

This incident was covered up by being moved to the 2nd fl lunchroom. Mr Oswald's reported claims in custody were amended accordingly.

Now! As for Mrs Reid!

Don't you find it just a teeny weeny bitsy bit... odd that three people standing out front together for the motorcade---------Mr Truly, Mr Campbell, Mrs Reid-----------would be the only three people to have talked about seeing Mr Oswald right after the assassination? Not seeing him together in the one sighting, mind. No! Immediately after the shots, our trio split up and went their separate ways, yet each somehow managed to do what not a single other person working in that building did----------see Mr Oswald and talk about the fact.

Don't be fooled! Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story. That's why her name is written (misspelled) at the bottom of his Saturday affidivat: he fed her to them.

(https://i.imgur.com/QmVTVxz.jpg)

If only if only if only Mrs G. L. Hine hadn't been in that 2nd fl office during the motorcade! Talk about complicating the plot! :'(
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Howsley on February 23, 2019, 11:38:23 AM
It isn't surprising that the killer of the POTUS was the centre of any witness recollection ...  at least those who encountered him within minutes of the murder. It makes perfect sense.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Dale Nason on February 23, 2019, 12:37:09 PM
Alan, what's the reference for this interview of LHO by Capt Fritz?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2019, 12:59:05 PM
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It isn't surprising that the killer of the POTUS was the centre of any witness recollection ...  at least those who encountered him within minutes of the murder. It makes perfect sense.

Way to miss the point, Mr Howsley!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
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Alan, what's the reference for this interview of LHO by Capt Fritz?

I don't understand the question, Mr Nason!
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2019, 02:13:11 PM
Friends, we must take time to let the full implications of the newly-revealed Hosty notes sink in!

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" is completely incompatible with his having just been told by Mrs Reid that JFK had been shot.

Why would Mr Oswald make such a claim?

Let's suppose he's lying, shall we? Let's suppose he was the 6th fl shooter...

-----------He ran down the back stairs and went into the 2nd fl lunchroom
-----------An officer yelled to him and challenged him at gunpoint
-----------His boss vouched for him
-----------He took his coke through the 2nd fl office area and was passed by a woman saying 'The President has been shot!'
-----------He went downstairs and out.

OK! So Mr Oswald in custody knows he was seen by 3 people on the 2nd floor. This is hardly a disaster----------in fact it's an enormous stroke of luck, something he can easily build into a story of having been on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting.... Puts quite some distance between him and that 6th fl window!  Thumb1:

So! He freely admits to what he can be sure those 3 people are going to be telling the police anyway:

-------------I was eating lunch in the 2nd fl lunchroom when a cop came in
-------------Wondering what was wrong, I immediately made my way to the front stairs
-------------A lady told me what had just happened outside
-------------I went out to see what was going on.

All very easy, no? Our shooter has managed----somehow!-----not to be seen on one of the upper floors. Now he has in his favor no fewer than 3 sightings of him by respectable people.

About the most idiotic thing he can do is to pretend these things never happened and tell Captain Fritz, "Well, I went outside to watch the Presidential parade".

Yet-----------that is just what he says!

Why would he tell such a wholly unnecessary lie?  ???

And NB NB NB!: Why would his obvious lie be suppressed by Captain Fritz & Co. and only reach the light of day 55 years later?   :o
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Dale Nason on February 23, 2019, 03:27:26 PM
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FRITZ: Okay, son, so you admit one of our men saw you in the lunchroom on the second floor?

OSWALD: Naturally if I was in the lunchroom at that time, yes, sir.

FRITZ: What were you doing there?

OSWALD: I had just bought a Coca Cola from the machine they have in there.

FRITZ: What did the officer say to you?

OSWALD: Well, he put a pistol up to my stomach and said 'Do you work here?' I told him I did, and my boss Mr Truly told him I was telling the truth.

FRITZ: What happened next?

OSWALD: Well, they went racing up the stairs.

FRITZ: What did you do then?

OSWALD: Well, I figured the policeman had given me a warning not to miss the President's visit. He and Mr Truly sure looked real keen to get upstairs for a good view of the parade themselves. So I brought my Coca Cola downstairs and went outside to watch the parade.

FRITZ: Did you speak to anyone on the way down?

OSWALD: Yes, sir. As I was going through the office towards the front stairway, a woman who works up there said to me, 'The President should be shot! But I hope they don't kill him.'

FRITZ: What did you say to her?

OSWALD: Oh nothing. I just muttered 'Crazy damn fascist' under my breath. Then I went downstairs and out front.

FRITZ: Let me get this clear, son. You're saying you went outside to watch the Presidential Parade?

OSWALD: Yes, sir. I went out on to the front steps.

FRITZ: What did you see when you got out onto the steps?

OSWALD: Well, it looked like people were real unhappy about the President coming to town. There was screaming and hollering and crying.
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 04:24:14 PM
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Mr Oswald visited the 2nd fl lunchroom for a coke before the assassination. Carolyn Arnold & Sarah Stanton saw him there.

The encounter with Officer Baker and Mr Truly happened at the front entrance. Mr Oswald was one of the people Officer Baker saw 'standing around' there when he dashed into the building.

This incident was covered up by being moved to the 2nd fl lunchroom. Mr Oswald's reported claims in custody were amended accordingly.

Trolling not withstanding, Alan Ford ignores that Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald sitting comfortably at 12:25 in the booth seat in the 2nd floor lunch room...

The Prayer Man nuts need to get rid of the 2nd floor lunch room encounter because they know it makes Oswald being out front in the entranceway impossible...Instead of letting the evidence correctly guide their thinking they try to force the evidence to fit the Prayer Man theory...There's nothing dumber than pretending to be a regular internet JFK assassination researcher and not realizing you are doing the Tom Sawyer fence painting work of the nutty evidence-hacker Greg Parker...

Only a fool suggests Baker pulled a gun on Oswald as Prayer Man, who he would have seen going inside right next to him according to the timing, in the lobby...Not only would Baker have seen Oswald outside and therefore known he had no reason to pull a gun on him, but there would have been many shocked people seeing this attention-grabbing event who would have spoken about it...

These are bozo nutty claims that are obviously ridiculous...Their makers are allowed free unrestricted access to internet forums and there is no criticism of their obvious craziness from a community that dares call itself the ongoing Kennedy researchers...The only thing this community won't tolerate is serious arguments of the correct proof...

If you're attempting to solve the Kennedy assassination conspiracy you've just killed any chance of doing that through nutty folly and allowing persons with less skill than active imaginations to take over unchecked...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 04:48:38 PM
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Now! As for Mrs Reid!

Don't you find it just a teeny weeny bitsy bit... odd that three people standing out front together for the motorcade---------Mr Truly, Mr Campbell, Mrs Reid-----------would be the only three people to have talked about seeing Mr Oswald right after the assassination? Not seeing him together in the one sighting, mind. No! Immediately after the shots, our trio split up and went their separate ways, yet each somehow managed to do what not a single other person working in that building did----------see Mr Oswald and talk about the fact.

Don't be fooled! Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story. That's why her name is written (misspelled) at the bottom of his Saturday affidivat: he fed her to them.

(https://i.imgur.com/QmVTVxz.jpg)

If only if only if only Mrs G. L. Hine hadn't been in that 2nd fl office during the motorcade! Talk about complicating the plot! :'(

Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story.

Alan, you can't simply ignore the evidence and make up your own plot....

I believe the evidence shows at Lee went from the first floor Domino Room to the second floor lunchroom at about the time that JFK was murdered.....He may have been in that lunchroom  at the time the shots were fired and never heard them...And that would explain why he was startled when Baker burst into the lunchroom....

I doubt that he had a clue what was going on until he went outside....  And even then he didn't realize that JFK had been shot.    He certainly heard people talking about the shots being fired but nobody actually knew that JFK had been hit.....( Recall Mrs Reid saying that she didn't know if JFK had been hit)   
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2019, 05:18:46 PM
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Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story.

Alan, you can't simply ignore the evidence and make up your own plot....

I believe the evidence shows at Lee went from the first floor Domino Room to the second floor lunchroom at about the time that JFK was murdered.....He may have been in that lunchroom  at the time the shots were fired and never heard them...And that would explain why he was startled when Baker burst into the lunchroom....

I doubt that he had a clue what was going on until he went outside....  And even then he didn't realize that JFK had been shot.    He certainly heard people talking about the shots being fired but nobody actually knew that JFK had been hit.....( Recall Mrs Reid saying that she didn't know if JFK had been hit)

So Mr Oswald is challenged at gunpoint by a cop, learns from Mrs Reid that shots have been fired outside and says to himself, 'Gee, think I'll go outside to watch the parade'.

The parade??
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 05:20:30 PM
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Mrs Reid was brought in by the man she reported to (Mr Truly) to lend support to his ridiculous lunchroom story.

Alan, you can't simply ignore the evidence and make up your own plot....

I believe the evidence shows at Lee went from the first floor Domino Room to the second floor lunchroom at about the time that JFK was murdered.....He may have been in that lunchroom  at the time the shots were fired and never heard them...And that would explain why he was startled when Baker burst into the lunchroom....

I doubt that he had a clue what was going on until he went outside....  And even then he didn't realize that JFK had been shot.    He certainly heard people talking about the shots being fired but nobody actually knew that JFK had been hit.....( Recall Mrs Reid saying that she didn't know if JFK had been hit)

Walt represents the unskilled researchers we are unfortunately subjected to...No serious researcher would ever say in public that Oswald could not hear the shots...This person obviously has no familiarity with gun fire...The firing of a high powered combat rifle is something no one misses due to simple physics and science...

Because we are mired by the insistence of these lesser skilled researchers taking over and dominating we do not discuss that Oswald may have seen or even heard Jarman and Norman going upstairs in the elevator from the 2nd floor staircase landing where Stanton saw him and never saw them walk through the rear door by the Domino Room...

These lesser skilled researchers never consider that Oswald fabricated his Domino Room presence in order to make an excuse in case he was witnessed leaving the Depository by the Domino Room rear exit with Shelley's help...The only time the Domino Room comes into play in the real evidence is when Oswald leaves...The rest of the time he is in the 2nd floor lunch room as he told Fritz...

Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 06:12:40 PM
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Walt represents the unskilled researchers we are unfortunately subjected to...No serious researcher would ever say in public that Oswald could not hear the shots...This person obviously has no familiarity with gun fire...The firing of a high powered combat rifle is something no one misses due to simple physics and science...

Because we are mired by the insistence of these lesser skilled researchers taking over and dominating we do not discuss that Oswald may have seen or even heard Jarman and Norman going upstairs in the elevator from the 2nd floor staircase landing where Stanton saw him and never saw them walk through the rear door by the Domino Room...

These lesser skilled researchers never consider that Oswald fabricated his Domino Room presence in order to make an excuse in case he was witnessed leaving the Depository by the Domino Room rear exit with Shelley's help...The only time the Domino Room comes into play in the real evidence is when Oswald leaves...The rest of the time he is in the 2nd floor lunch room as he told Fritz...


Oswald fabricated his Domino Room presence in order to make an excuse in case he was witnessed leaving the Depository by the Domino Room rear exit


Psssst Mr Doyly ....  So you think Lee made up the alibi about being in the Domino Room when the motorcade passed by the TSBD??   

Question.... How would Lee have known that there was nobody in the domino room??     If he had told Fritz that he was in the D room and there had been some TSBD employee or employees in the domino room at that time who would have refuted his alibi, by saying..."Lee Oswald wasn't there with us...We were right there playing dominos and talking, and Lee Oswald was not there"   He would have been digging his grave by lying....

You're not the sharpest knife on the drawer ,...are you?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 06:34:38 PM
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Walt represents the unskilled researchers we are unfortunately subjected to...No serious researcher would ever say in public that Oswald could not hear the shots...This person obviously has no familiarity with gun fire...The firing of a high powered combat rifle is something no one misses due to simple physics and science...

Because we are mired by the insistence of these lesser skilled researchers taking over and dominating we do not discuss that Oswald may have seen or even heard Jarman and Norman going upstairs in the elevator from the 2nd floor staircase landing where Stanton saw him and never saw them walk through the rear door by the Domino Room...

These lesser skilled researchers never consider that Oswald fabricated his Domino Room presence in order to make an excuse in case he was witnessed leaving the Depository by the Domino Room rear exit with Shelley's help...The only time the Domino Room comes into play in the real evidence is when Oswald leaves...The rest of the time he is in the 2nd floor lunch room as he told Fritz...

Walt represents the unskilled researchers we are unfortunately subjected to...No serious researcher would ever say in public that Oswald could not hear the shots...This person obviously has no familiarity with gun fire...The firing of a high powered combat rifle is something no one misses due to simple physics and science...

Dear Dumbass.....  It is YOU who doesn't understand that the walls, partitions, and the boxes of books in the TSBD created a very efficient muffler .... Any loud noise on Elm street would be inaudible in the second floor lunchroom .....  I doubt that you'll be able to address a simple question, but I'll ask anyway....

How do you know that "a high powered combat rifle" was fired at the time that JFK was murdered?    If you're referring to the carcano....You may want to check...Because the carcano is NOT a high powered rifle....

And what's more ...The carcano was NOT fired that day.....   Now run along and learn a bit about the subject.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: John Agee on February 23, 2019, 07:13:02 PM
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Walt represents the unskilled researchers we are unfortunately subjected to...No serious researcher would ever say in public that Oswald could not hear the shots...This person obviously has no familiarity with gun fire...The firing of a high powered combat rifle is something no one misses due to simple physics and science...

Brian, are you aware that 2 witnesses inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination did not hear any shots?

Edna Case: ". . . I was at my desk on the third floor looking out the window located on the west side of the building. I did not hear any shots . . ."
Sandra Sue Elerson: " . . . I was looking out the third floor window trying to get a view of the President's car. . . . I did not hear any shots or any loud sounds that sounded like rifle fire."

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

I am not claiming that Oswald did not hear any shots, and I am not saying I agree with Walt. I'm taking issue with your blanket claim that the "firing of a high powered rifle is something that no one misses. . ." And perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the testimony of all the witnesses before denigrating others as unskilled researchers.


Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 07:18:49 PM
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Brian, are you aware that 2 witnesses inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination did not hear any shots?

Edna Case: ". . . I was at my desk on the third floor looking out the window located on the west side of the building. I did not hear any shots . . ."
Sandra Sue Elerson: " . . . I was looking out the third floor window trying to get a view of the President's car. . . . I did not hear any shots or any loud sounds that sounded like rifle fire."

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

I am not claiming that Oswald did not hear any shots, and I am not saying I agree with Walt. I'm taking issue with your blanket claim that the "firing of a high powered rifle is something that no one misses. . ." And perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the testimony of all the witnesses before denigrating others as unskilled researchers.

Nice speech Mr Agee but I would like for you to honestly ask yourself if you honestly believe anyone could be at the 3rd floor window watching the motorcade and not hear a Carcano being fired near by?...

So while you are correcting people with quotes of testimony then why don't you correct Walt by showing him Oswald saying he was in the Domino Room when the shots went off...Which means he heard the shots - right?

This is dumb because we could fire a Carcano and stand in the Depository and you would immediately see my point... 

I would prefer Baker who said he recognized the sound of a high powered rifle...
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 07:53:55 PM
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Oswald fabricated his Domino Room presence in order to make an excuse in case he was witnessed leaving the Depository by the Domino Room rear exit


Psssst Mr Doyly ....  So you think Lee made up the alibi about being in the Domino Room when the motorcade passed by the TSBD??   

Question.... How would Lee have known that there was nobody in the domino room??     If he had told Fritz that he was in the D room and there had been some TSBD employee or employees in the domino room at that time who would have refuted his alibi, by saying..."Lee Oswald wasn't there with us...We were right there playing dominos and talking, and Lee Oswald was not there"   He would have been digging his grave by lying....

You're not the sharpest knife on the drawer ,...are you?


Coming from somebody who gives pretty stupid answers to Harvey & Lee...

The only way Oswald could be in the Domino Room when Jarman and Norman came in from the rear of the Depository would be if he went back up in time to be on the 2nd floor landing for Sarah Stanton's witnessing and then Carolyn Arnold's...

A better researcher would look at the quote from Fritz's Commission testimony where he said he was pretty sure Oswald told him he was in the 2nd floor lunch room at the time of the shots...



Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 09:14:14 PM
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Nice speech Mr Agee but I would like for you to honestly ask yourself if you honestly believe anyone could be at the 3rd floor window watching the motorcade and not hear a Carcano being fired near by?...

So while you are correcting people with quotes of testimony then why don't you correct Walt by showing him Oswald saying he was in the Domino Room when the shots went off...Which means he heard the shots - right?

This is dumb because we could fire a Carcano and stand in the Depository and you would immediately see my point... 

I would prefer Baker who said he recognized the sound of a high powered rifle...

why don't you correct Walt by showing him Oswald saying he was in the Domino Room when the shots went off...Which means he heard the shots - right?

Why by golly you're right....That would make sense IF  Lee had said that he was in the domino room when the shots were fired....EXCEPT!!...Lee never said that....He told the interrogators that he was on the first floor WHEN THE PRESIDENT'S PARADE PASSED BY..... He DID NOT say When the shots were fired.   Dumbass!

Now run along and Learn the basics....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 09:20:52 PM
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Nice speech Mr Agee but I would like for you to honestly ask yourself if you honestly believe anyone could be at the 3rd floor window watching the motorcade and not hear a Carcano being fired near by?...

So while you are correcting people with quotes of testimony then why don't you correct Walt by showing him Oswald saying he was in the Domino Room when the shots went off...Which means he heard the shots - right?

This is dumb because we could fire a Carcano and stand in the Depository and you would immediately see my point... 

I would prefer Baker who said he recognized the sound of a high powered rifle...

I would prefer Baker who said he recognized the sound of a high powered rifle...

Thank you, for shooting yourself in the foot, quick draw.....  If Baker was an expert on the sounds of rifles, and he heard the sound of a HIGH POWERED rifle, then that eliminates the Puny little 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano as the rifle he heard.....  Because the carcano is NOT a high powered rifle....As proof of this statement you may have seen the video of a man firing a carcano with one hand .......
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 09:25:56 PM
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why don't you correct Walt by showing him Oswald saying he was in the Domino Room when the shots went off...Which means he heard the shots - right?

Why by golly you're right....That would make sense IF  Lee had said that he was in the domino room when the shots were fired....EXCEPT!!...Lee never said that....He told the interrogators that he was on the first floor WHEN THE PRESIDENT'S PARADE PASSED BY..... He DID NOT say When the shots were fired.   Dumbass!

Now run along and Learn the basics....

That's right up there with trying to convince people the walls, books, and boxes muffled the sound of the gunshots...

I suppose we could spend several months in the Iacoletti Angels On The Head Of A Pin branch making thousands of posts about how to semantically define the motorcade passing by vs the shots going off seeing how they happened pretty much at the same time for all intents and purposes...

I've covered this before...Your version requires Oswald to be seen on the 2nd floor staircase landing by Stanton...Then be in the Domino Room to see Jarman and Norman go by...Then be in the 2nd floor lunch room to be seen by Carolyn Arnold...Then be back in the Domino Room to be there when the motorcade passed...And then be back up in the 2nd floor lunch room for Baker & Truly...

You don't think too deeply so you don't realize these serious doubtables...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 09:34:41 PM
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I would prefer Baker who said he recognized the sound of a high powered rifle...

Thank you, for shooting yourself in the foot, quick draw.....  If Baker was an expert on the sounds of rifles, and he heard the sound of a HIGH POWERED rifle, then that eliminates the Puny little 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano as the rifle he heard.....  Because the carcano is NOT a high powered rifle....As proof of this statement you may have seen the video of a man firing a carcano with one hand .......

So, in other words, you admit you are full of it when you say people could not hear the shots?

Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 09:35:18 PM
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That's right up there with trying to convince people the walls, books, and boxes muffled the sound of the gunshots...

I suppose we could spend several months in the Iacoletti Angels On The head Of A Pin branch making thousands of posts about how to semantically define the motorcade passing by vs the shots going off seeing how they happened pretty much at the same time for all intents and purposes...

I've covered this before...Your version requires Oswald to be seen on the 2nd floor staircase landing by Stanton...Then be in the Domino Room to see Jarman and Norman go by...Then be in the 2nd floor lunch room to be seen by Carolyn Arnold...Then be back in the Domino Room to be there when the motorcade passed...And then be back up in the 2nd floor lunch room for Baker & Truly...

You don't think too deeply so you don't realize these serious doubtables...

I suppose we could spend several months in the Iacoletti Angels On The head Of A Pin branch making thousands of posts about how to semantically define the motorcade passing by vs the shots going off seeing how they happened pretty much at the same time for all intents and purposes...


Yes, the shots were fired when the Limo was on Elm street in Dealey Plaza....  That's not the point Dumbass.... The point is YOU said that Lee said he heard the shots. and he never said any such thing.   He merely said that he was on the first floor when the parade passed by.    I suspect that he may have been on his way to the stairs to the second floor lunchroom , to buy a coke, but that's just a guess.   
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 09:42:22 PM
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I suppose we could spend several months in the Iacoletti Angels On The head Of A Pin branch making thousands of posts about how to semantically define the motorcade passing by vs the shots going off seeing how they happened pretty much at the same time for all intents and purposes...


Yes, the shots were fired when the Limo was on Elm street in Dealey Plaza....  That's not the point Dumbass.... The point is YOU said that Lee said he heard the shots. and he never said any such thing.   He merely said that he was on the first floor when the parade passed by.    I suspect that he may have been on his way to the stairs to the second floor lunchroom , to buy a coke, but that's just a guess.

To buy a Coke that he was seen holding a few minutes earlier by Sarah Stanton?

Why are you ignoring Fritz's Commission testimony where he said he was pretty sure Oswald told him he was in the 2nd floor lunch room when the president was shot?...

Also Ball tried to bait Fritz into saying Oswald went up to get the Coke...Fritz didn't bite and responded "He said he got a Coke" (in other words Fritz is telling Ball that Oswald didn't say he went up to get it)...

You need to learn to read evidence...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 10:27:53 PM
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To buy a Coke that he was seen holding a few minutes earlier by Sarah Stanton?

Why are you ignoring Fritz's Commission testimony where he said he was pretty sure Oswald told him he was in the 2nd floor lunch room when the president was shot?...

Also Ball tried to bait Fritz into saying Oswald went up to get the Coke...Fritz didn't bite and responded "He said he got a Coke" (in other words Fritz is telling Ball that Oswald didn't say he went up to get it)...

You need to learn to read evidence...

Fritz's Commission testimony where he said he was pretty sure Oswald told him he was in the 2nd floor lunch room when the president was shot

Huh.... I have no problem accepting that Lee could have been in the 2nd floor lunchroom when JFK was shot.....I DO have a problem with you saying that He said he heard the shots....  Lee never said any such thing.    He said that he was in the Domino room when the parade passed by the front of the TSBD.... BUt he could have been in the 2nd floor lunchroom at the time .....The point is He never heard the shots.... In fact when he was shown the Dallas street map that had an "X" at Houston and Elm....He realized that the cops were saying that the "X" indicated the spot where JFK was murdered....and he blurted out...."My God!, Don't tell me that is where   the shooting happened"....   ( Can someone provide Lee's word's verbatim?)
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 23, 2019, 10:35:04 PM
You've got to learn to read between the lines when reading evidence..

Oswald is a very clever trained spook...

He doesn't mention hearing the shots because he's smart enough to know he'll be asked why he didn't then react and go find out more...Which will lead to why he was in the 2nd floor lunch room in the first place etc...Plus the authorities are omitting information from their side...

The less information the better which is exactly what he did at the police station...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 10:47:48 PM
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Friends, we must take time to let the full implications of the newly-revealed Hosty notes sink in!

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Mr Oswald's claim to have gone "outside to watch P. Parade" is completely incompatible with his having just been told by Mrs Reid that JFK had been shot.

Why would Mr Oswald make such a claim?

Let's suppose he's lying, shall we? Let's suppose he was the 6th fl shooter...

-----------He ran down the back stairs and went into the 2nd fl lunchroom
-----------An officer yelled to him and challenged him at gunpoint
-----------His boss vouched for him
-----------He took his coke through the 2nd fl office area and was passed by a woman saying 'The President has been shot!'
-----------He went downstairs and out.

OK! So Mr Oswald in custody knows he was seen by 3 people on the 2nd floor. This is hardly a disaster----------in fact it's an enormous stroke of luck, something he can easily build into a story of having been on the 2nd floor at the time of the shooting.... Puts quite some distance between him and that 6th fl window!  Thumb1:

So! He freely admits to what he can be sure those 3 people are going to be telling the police anyway:

-------------I was eating lunch in the 2nd fl lunchroom when a cop came in
-------------Wondering what was wrong, I immediately made my way to the front stairs
-------------A lady told me what had just happened outside
-------------I went out to see what was going on.

All very easy, no? Our shooter has managed----somehow!-----not to be seen on one of the upper floors. Now he has in his favor no fewer than 3 sightings of him by respectable people.

About the most idiotic thing he can do is to pretend these things never happened and tell Captain Fritz, "Well, I went outside to watch the Presidential parade".

Yet-----------that is just what he says!

Why would he tell such a wholly unnecessary lie?  ???

And NB NB NB!: Why would his obvious lie be suppressed by Captain Fritz & Co. and only reach the light of day 55 years later?   :o

Yet-----------that is just what he says!

NO!...That is what Hosty says he said....   At the time of the interrogation (3:15 pm 11/22/63) Lee probably wasn't too concerned with being precise.... He was under the impression that he was a suspect in the death of some cop.   I doubt that he was very careful in making sure he was precise in recalling his actions at the TSBD...because I'm sure he knew that there was no cop killed there.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 11:02:57 PM
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So, in other words, you admit you are full of it when you say people could not hear the shots?

Get your head out, and Listen up...Doyly....  I did NOT say that people could not hear the shots....I said that Lee Oswald NEVER EVER said that he heard any shots....

Lee said that he was on the first floor in the Domino Room, when the Presidential parade passed by.....  but he never said anything about hearing any shots..
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 11:10:53 PM
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Why of course he is. He said something that Cakebread The Kook doesn't like....so, he's automatically a big fat liar! (What a surprise!)

~yawn~

C' mon Vonzie ...Tell us how YOU can determine the caliber, the groove width,  the twist rate, and the proof that the bullet in the photo was fired from the TSBD carcano... 

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/search?q=Walt+Cakebread

You can just skip the BS text....and look at the pretty picture.....

Referring to the pic on the right....How wide is the groove that is clearly visible on the copper jacket....(hint....There is a scale right there....)
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 11:19:13 PM
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You will grow old awaiting responsiveness from Walt.... but to be fair, the original source link he likely obtained the note image excerpt
he posted is probably verboten to post on this forum.
A Link (https://books.google.com/books?id=Eoi7x5i_bDkC&pg=PT40&dq=by+james+hosty+now+when+the+police+apprehended+you&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ7OLYxNDgAhUNmuAKHV5YDcUQ6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=by%20james%20hosty%20now%20when%20the%20police%20apprehended%20you&f=false)
Assignment: Oswald
By James P. Hosty, Thomas Hosty
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationTranscribed.jpg)

http://www.jfklancer.com/Hosty_Notes.html
http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/hostynotes_LHO.gif
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)

I especially like the entry that says that Lee told them that he had seen this rifle and two other rifles in Mr Truly's office on Wednesday November 20 1963.

(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)

Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 23, 2019, 11:29:33 PM
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You've got to learn to read between the lines when reading evidence..

Oswald is a very cleaver trained spook...

He doesn't mention hearing the shots because he's smart enough to know he'll be asked why he didn't then react and go find out more...Which will lead to why he was in the 2nd floor lunch room in the first place etc...Plus the authorities are omitting information from their side...

The less information the better which is exactly what he did at the police station...

"He doesn't mention hearing the shots"

So you've finally extracted your head..... Now get that stuff outta yer ears and LISTEN....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 23, 2019, 11:57:34 PM
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Yet-----------that is just what he says!

NO!...That is what Hosty says he said....   At the time of the interrogation (3:15 pm 11/22/63) Lee probably wasn't too concerned with being precise.... He was under the impression that he was a suspect in the death of some cop.   I doubt that he was very careful in making sure he was precise in recalling his actions at the TSBD...because I'm sure he knew that there was no cop killed there.

We can be quite certain that Agent Hosty, given the magnitude of what was at stake, was not apt to be casual about the suspect's claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination.

The reason he wrote "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" was that he had clearly heard the suspect tell Captain Fritz that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.

And the reason this startling claim never made it into any official report was that it pointed to the rather unwelcome fact that the suspect had an alibi.

Not complicated!
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Howsley on February 24, 2019, 12:16:17 AM
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We can be quite certain that Agent Hosty, given the magnitude of what was at stake, was not apt to be casual about the suspect's claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination.

The reason he wrote "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" was that he had clearly heard the suspect tell Captain Fritz that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.

And the reason this startling claim never made it into any official report was that it pointed to the rather unwelcome fact that the suspect had an alibi.

Not complicated!

That's not an alibi. That's just another of the many Oswald lies. That's of course assuming Hosty heard correctly, took it down correctly and assuming that people are interpreting his notes correctly. Hosty isn't around to confirm one way or the other so to me this can be left hanging out there as another question with no definite answer except the answer people choose to put on it.
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 24, 2019, 12:22:11 AM
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"He doesn't mention hearing the shots"

So you've finally extracted your head..... Now get that stuff outta yer ears and LISTEN....

Says the great teacher Walt...

One more thing Mr Walt....If Oswald can't hear the gunshots how does he hear the motorcade?...

Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Dale Nason on February 24, 2019, 12:31:01 AM
Walt....tell me exactly where he said that.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2019, 12:31:16 AM
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That's not an alibi. That's just another of the many Oswald lies.

Proof emerges that the authorities lied about the accused assassin's answer to the question, 'Where were you when the President passed the building?', and what does the Warren Gullible say? 'Nothing to see here!'

Says it all really :D
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 12:55:50 AM
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We can be quite certain that Agent Hosty, given the magnitude of what was at stake, was not apt to be casual about the suspect's claimed whereabouts at the time of the assassination.

The reason he wrote "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" was that he had clearly heard the suspect tell Captain Fritz that he had gone outside to watch the Presidential parade.

And the reason this startling claim never made it into any official report was that it pointed to the rather unwelcome fact that the suspect had an alibi.

Not complicated!

Alan, I'm 100% certain that Lee Oswald never fired any gun from the TSBD that day.....But I think you are putting too much faith in Hosty's notes.   Hosty was under a great deal of duress  when he was ordered to get his butt over to the DPD and make sure Oswald never said anything to implicate Hoover or his EXTRA SPECIAL agents.    Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade....

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

But, I do welcome your honest debate ...... 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 12:58:12 AM
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Walt....tell me exactly where he said that.

Dale when you ask questions, please post what you are referring to......Just copy the statement and paste it before asking your question.

Thank you
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2019, 01:04:46 AM
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Alan, I'm 100% certain that Lee Oswald never fired any gun from the TSBD that day.....But I think you are putting too much faith in Hosty's notes.   Hosty was under a great deal of duress  when he was ordered to get his butt over to the DPD and make sure Oswald never said anything to implicate Hoover or his EXTRA SPECIAL agents.    Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade....

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

But, I do welcome your honest debate ......

Thank you, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:

"Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade...."
-----------My point entirely!
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 24, 2019, 01:10:02 AM
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     Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade.... 
  Fritz recorded Oswald stating...went ''out front with Bill Shelley" -----
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=3&tab=page
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 01:49:43 AM
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  Fritz recorded Oswald stating...went ''out front with Bill Shelley" -----
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=29103#relPageId=3&tab=page

Fritz recorded Oswald stating...went ''out front with Bill Shelley" -----

Yes ...  But we don't know WHEN ...   I believe that Lee saw Shelly outside on the street a few minutes after the shooting.....when he went outside to see what had caused the motorcycle cop to burst into the second floor lunchroom and demand what he was doing....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2019, 11:12:08 AM
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I believe that Lee saw Shelly outside on the street a few minutes after the shooting.....when he went outside to see what had caused the motorcycle cop to burst into the second floor lunchroom and demand what he was doing....

We now know that this is not what Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz at that first interview. He told him he bought the coke before the motorcade, went down to 1 and then went outside to watch the Presidential parade.

The unambiguous words in Hosty's notes cannot simply be wished away. They were hidden for 55+ years, but now they are out there for everyone to see.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 24, 2019, 11:36:49 AM
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The unambiguous words in Hosty's notes 
Remain obscure.
 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
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Remain obscure.

Indeed!

"Then went outside"----maybe Mr Oswald meant the Depository roof?

"to watch"----maybe Mr Oswald went up to the roof to pick up his watch which he had left there earlier in the day?

"P. Parade"----maybe "Parade" is actually "Paracle", i.e. short for "Paraclete"?

In short, it is at least as likely that Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he slipped up to the roof to pick up his watch and meditate p[rayerfully on the] Paracle[te]'s promise that time could be transcended as that Mr Oswald told Captain Fritz he went outside to watch the Presidential parade.

If only Agent Hosty had used clear language!   :'(
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 01:05:45 PM
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Thank you, Mr Cakebread!  Thumb1:

"Hosty is the only person who recorded that Lee went outside to watch the President's Parade...."
-----------My point entirely!

Alan, let's examine Hosty's scribbled note....We can compare it with Willie Fritz's and James Bookhout's notes.....  because they were also present and heard Lee's replies. It would be very helpful if you'd present all of the notes as Hosty wrote them.   Because I'm now skeptical that Hosty wrote them during the interrogation, and I'm thinking that these notes that you've posted were actually written by James Bookhout.  The chronology of the events as they are recorded is important.   

O(swald) stated that he was present for work at the TSBD the morning of 11/22/63 and at noon went to lunch. He went to second floor to get a Coca- Cola to eat with lunch and returned to first floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch the P(resident's) parade.

"and at noon went to lunch"---The word "noon" does not mean precisely 12:00 O'clock, and I think that you'll agree that Lee did not go to lunch at 12:00 O'clock, Because all of the other employees stopped work at about 11:50 and climbed aboard the elevators and left him behind on the fifth floor. They then went to the first floor and washed up for lunch, and then some of them sat down in the Domino room and ate their lunches, and they were there in the D room until at least 12:15. ...So we don't know  at what time Lee went to the first floor, but we can assume that it must have been after 12:15.  So Hosty's note does not mean that Lee went to lunch at 12:00 O'clock. 

"He went to second floor to get a Coca-Cola to eat with lunch and returned to first floor to eat lunch."[/i---   We don't know if Lee started eating his lunch immediately, or perhaps looked at the newspaper for a few minutes before opening his lunch sack.....But since Hosty wrote that he went to the second floor lunchroom to buy a coke to drink with his lunch we must assume that he bought the coke BEFORE eating his lunch.  and THEN AFTER buying the coke he returned to the Domino Room and ate his lunch and drank the Coca Cola.

'He then went outside to watch the President's parade".....   We know that this chronology is contradictory to the notes that Hosty himself published in his book Assignment: Oswald ....  ( Those notes are posted in this thread...see link below)

And by 99% of the accounts....Baker and Truly encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom after he'd bought the coke ......

What say you?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)

Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 24, 2019, 01:37:53 PM
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Remain obscure.
I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another of coffee.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2019, 01:47:28 PM
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Alan, let's examine Hosty's scribbled note....We can compare it with Willie Fritz's and James Bookhout's notes.....  because they were also present and heard Lee's replies. It would be very helpful if you'd present the all of the notes as Hosty wrote them.   Because I'm now skeptical that Hosty wrote them during the interrogation, and I'm thinking that these notes that you've posted were actually written by James Bookhout.  The chronology of the events as they are recorded them is important.   

O(swald) stated that he was present for work at the TSBD the morning of 11/22/63 and at noon went to lunch. He went to second floor to get a Coca- Cola to eat with lunch and returned to first floor to eat lunch. Then went outside to watch the P(resident's) parade.

"and at noon went to lunch"---The word "noon" does not mean precisely 12:00 O'clock, and I think that you'll agree that Lee did not go to lunch at 12:00 O'clock, Because all of the other employees stopped work at about 11:50 and climbed aboard the elevators and left him behind on the fifth floor. They then went to the first floor and washed up for lunch, and then some of them sat down in the Domino room and ate their lunches, and they were there in the D room until at least 12:15. ...So we don't know  at what time Lee went to the first floor, but we can assume that it must have been after 12:15.  So Hosty's note does not mean that Lee went to lunch at 12:00 O'clock. 

"He went to second floor to get a Coca-Cola to eat with lunch and returned to first floor to eat lunch."[/i---   We don't know if Lee started eating his lunch immediately, or perhaps looked at the newspaper for a few minutes before opening his lunch sack.....But since Hosty wrote that he went to the second floor lunchroom to buy a coke to drink with his lunch we must assume that he bought the coke BEFORE eating his lunch.  and THEN AFTER buying the coke he returned to the Domino Room and ate his lunch and drank the Coca Cola.

'He then went outside to watch the President's parade".....   We know that this chronology is contradictory to the notes that Hosty himself published in his book Assignment: Oswald ....  ( Those notes are posted in this thread)

And by 99% of the accounts....Baker and Truly encountered Lee in the second floor lunchroom after he'd bought the coke ......

What say you?

It is quite inaccurate to state that 99% of the accounts point to a Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter in the 2nd fl lunchroom!
-------------Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit
-------------What DPD were telling the press 11/22
-------------What Mr O Campbell was telling the press 11/22
-------------What Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz 11/22
-------------The joint interrogation report written by Agents Bookhout & Hosty 11/22
-------------Inspector Harry D. Holmes Warren Commission testimony ("First floor. Front entrance... Vestibule")

The 2nd fl lunchroom encounter was invented the evening of 11/22.

Now! There are two bombshells in the Hosty note:

Bombshell 1: Mr Oswald, far from confirming a 2nd fl lunchroom incident, spoke only of buying a coke up there before the motorcade
Bombshell 2: Mr Oswald, far from placing himself in the domino room at the time of the motorcade, spoke of having gone outside to watch the motorcade

Your LHO timeline:
1. Breaks for lunch about noon
2. Buys coke in 2nd fl lunchroom
3. Returns to first floor to eat lunch

Correct so far!  Thumb1:

But! What happens next is not that Mr Oswald decides---------at what just so happens to be the very time the shooting is taking place---------to go back up for a second coke!

No! He hears the commotion/excitement out front as the motorcade approaches Elm Street, runs down to the front entrance and steps "outside to watch P. Parade".

He tells all this freely to Captain Fritz on 11/22/63. A decision is made to bury his claim in obfuscation, omission, misrepresentation---------and an excursus into outright fiction-writing (2nd fl lunchroom incident). Mr Oswald's death makes that decision a whole lot easier to implement.

Not until February 2019 will Mr Oswald finally be granted a chance to tell his own side of the story! There is an all too obvious reason for that, and years of attachment to the lunchroom story should not blind one to that reason.

Sorry, Mr Cakebread, but the inconvenient data in the Hosty notes cannot be wished away.

 Thumb1:


Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2019, 01:49:29 PM
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I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another of coffee.

Apology accepted!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 02:02:36 PM
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I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another of coffee.
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

These notes are NOT written by Hosty....I believe they were written by James Bookhout.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 02:13:34 PM
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It is quite inaccurate to state that 99% of the accounts point to a Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter in the 2nd fl lunchroom!
-------------Officer Baker's 11/22 affidavit
-------------What DPD were telling the press 11/22
-------------What Mr O Campbell was telling the press 11/22
-------------What Mr Oswald was telling Captain Fritz 11/22
-------------The joint interrogation report written by Agents Bookhout & Hosty 11/22
-------------Inspector Harry D. Holmes Warren Commission testimony ("First floor. Front entrance... Vestibule")

The 2nd fl lunchroom encounter was invented the evening of 11/22.

Now! There are two bombshells in the Hosty note:

Bombshell 1: Mr Oswald, far from confirming a 2nd fl lunchroom incident, spoke only of buying a coke up there before the motorcade
Bombshell 2: Mr Oswald, far from placing himself in the domino room at the time of the motorcade, spoke of having gone outside to watch the motorcade

Your LHO timeline:
1. Breaks for lunch about noon
2. Buys coke in 2nd fl lunchroom
3. Returns to first floor to eat lunch

Correct so far!  Thumb1:

But! What happens next is not that Mr Oswald decides---------at what just so happens to be the very time the shooting is taking place---------to go back up for a second coke!

No! He hears the commotion/excitement out front as the motorcade approaches Elm Street, runs down to the front entrance and steps "outside to watch P. Parade".

He tells all this freely to Captain Fritz on 11/22/63. A decision is made to bury his claim in obfuscation, omission, misrepresentation---------and an excursus into outright fiction-writing (2nd fl lunchroom incident). Mr Oswald's death makes that decision a whole lot easier to implement.

Not until February 2019 will Mr Oswald finally be granted a chance to tell his own side of the story! There is an all too obvious reason for that, and years of attachment to the lunchroom story should blind one to that reason.

Sorry, Mr Cakebread, but the inconvenient data in the Hosty notes cannot be wished away.

 Thumb1:

These notes were NOT written by Hosty.....They were written by James Bookhout.....
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

On page 613 of WR there is a copy of James Bookhout's typed report (see link below)....In that report he makes the same erroneous statement that he made in his scribbled notes....EXCEPT in the typed report he corrects himself and instead of saying the Lee went to outside to watch the P parade, he wrote....
Quote... "Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building"...unquote

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0319a.htm
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 24, 2019, 02:59:21 PM
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These notes were NOT written by Hosty.....They were written by James Bookhout.....
(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

On page 613 of WR there is a copy of James Bookhout's typed report ....In that report he makes the same erroneous statement that he made in his scribbled notes....EXCEPT in the typed report he corrects himself and instead of saying the Lee went to outside to watch the P parade, he wrote....
Quote... "Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when President John F. Kennedy passed the building"...unquote

Incorrect! The report you quote from is not 'James Bookhout's typed report', it is the typed joint report of Jameses Hosty & Bookhout.

To dismiss the words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" as the "erroneous statement" in the "scribbled notes", and to see nothing at all suspicious in the fact that it got translated to the much vaguer "on the first floor" in the typed joint report, only to be disappeared completely in the subsequent solo Bookhout report, is merely to show that your mind is completely closed to new evidence.

You're free to continue believing in the lunchroom incident, Mr Cakebread, but at least be clear about what that belief now entails:
------------Mr Oswald lied when he told Captain Fritz he bought that Coca Cola before the motorcade
------------Hosty, Bookhout et al's systematic suppression of Mr Oswald's claim is of no evidentiary value.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 03:14:28 PM
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Incorrect! The report you quote from is not 'James Bookhout's typed report', it is the typed joint report of Jameses Hosty & Bookhout.

To dismiss the words "Then went outside to watch P. Parade" as the "erroneous statement" in the "scribbled notes", and to see nothing at all suspicious in the fact that it got translated to the much vaguer "on the first floor" in the typed joint report, only to be disappeared completely in the subsequent solo Bookhout report, is merely to show that your mind is completely closed to new evidence.

You're free to continue believing in the lunchroom incident, Mr Cakebread, but at least be clear about what that belief now entails:
------------Mr Oswald lied when he told Captain Fritz he bought that Coca Cola before the motorcade
------------Hosty, Bookhout et al's systematic suppression of Mr Oswald's claim is of no evidentiary value.

Alan...You're being a fool......
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 24, 2019, 03:24:16 PM
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Fritz recorded Oswald stating...went ''out front with Bill Shelley" -----

Yes ...  But we don't know WHEN ...   I believe that Lee saw Shelly outside on the street a few minutes after the shooting.....when he went outside to see what had caused the motorcycle cop to burst into the second floor lunchroom and demand what he was doing....

Except that Shelley wasn't there...In the films of the front steps only Lovelady is there...

I see the great teacher Walt passed on answering how Oswald could hear the motorcade if he couldn't hear the gunshots?...

Oswald was never seen out front after the 2nd floor lunch room encounter...


Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 24, 2019, 03:36:34 PM
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I've never seen this notes before.  Is there a link? I know that he had written a book.

Hi Jerry....I'm convinced that the scribbled notes are the notes of James Bookhout.....I've never seen them either.....But I would like to see them....

But I doubt that Mr Alan Ford will oblige us and post them.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2019, 03:04:02 PM
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Except that Shelley wasn't there...In the films of the front steps only Lovelady is there...

I see the great teacher Walt passed on answering how Oswald could hear the motorcade if he couldn't hear the gunshots?...

Oswald was never seen out front after the 2nd floor lunch room encounter...

I see the great teacher Walt passed on answering how Oswald could hear the motorcade if he couldn't hear the gunshots?...

Thank you for the compliment....  But"the great teacher Walt" is going to be compelled to award you the "F" that you've earned in this thread...... Do you believe that Lee had only the sense of hearing?.....  I don't believe he was blind....So he could easily have caught glimpses of the parade passing by by looking toward the front of the building from the Domino Room... And nobody knows PRECISELY where he was AT THE TIME the shots were fired......He may have heard the sirens of the approaching motorcade as he started out to go to the second floor..... But at the moment the shots were fired he could have been in the second floor lunchroom....

Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2019, 07:33:50 PM
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Except that Shelley wasn't there...In the films of the front steps only Lovelady is there...

I see the great teacher Walt passed on answering how Oswald could hear the motorcade if he couldn't hear the gunshots?...

Oswald was never seen out front after the 2nd floor lunch room encounter...

Frazier said that he saw Lee out front after the shots were fired and that was after the lunchroom encounter.... And personally I believe there are photos that show Lee standing out front and looking toward the railroad cars ......
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 25, 2019, 08:44:02 PM
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Frazier said that he saw Lee out front after the shots were fired and that was after the lunchroom encounter.... And personally I believe there are photos that show Lee standing out front and looking toward the railroad cars ......

There's no way he would have been out there with nobody seeing or photographing him...

Frazier told Gary Mack in 2002 that he saw Oswald come from the rear exit and stroll up Houston about 5 to 10 minutes after the shots...
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 25, 2019, 08:54:18 PM
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Do you believe that Lee had only the sense of hearing?.....  I don't believe he was blind....So he could easily have caught glimpses of the parade passing by by looking toward the front of the building from the Domino Room... And nobody knows PRECISELY where he was AT THE TIME the shots were fired......He may have heard the sirens of the approaching motorcade as he started out to go to the second floor..... But at the moment the shots were fired he could have been in the second floor lunchroom....

I'm not sure you could see in that direction through the concrete art deco blocks in those windows...

That doesn't really make sense according to Carolyn Arnold's witnessing...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2019, 08:59:53 PM
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There's no way he would have been out there with nobody seeing or photographing him...

Frazier told Gary Mack in 2002 that he saw Oswald come from the rear exit and stroll up Houston about 5 to 10 minutes after the shots...

There's no way he would have been out there with nobody seeing or photographing him...

What part of this sentence do you not understand?  "personally I believe there are photos that show Lee standing out front and looking toward the railroad cars" ......

Frazier told Gary Mack in 2002 that he saw Oswald come from the rear exit and stroll up Houston about 5 to 10 minutes after the shots..

WHERE?   Was BWF  when he saw Lee??  Was he on the EAST side of the TSBD ??

Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 25, 2019, 09:04:02 PM
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What part of this sentence do you not understand?  "personally I believe there are photos that show Lee standing out front and looking toward the railroad cars" ......

You're not answering the point that there were many people out there at the time and no one saw Oswald...Men in black again?...

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WHERE?   Was BWF  when he saw Lee??  Was he on the EAST side of the TSBD ??

He was out in front by the steps...Probably on the sidewalk by the corner...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2019, 09:40:03 PM
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You're not answering the point that there were many people out there at the time and no one saw Oswald...Men in black again?...

He was out in front by the steps...Probably on the sidewalk by the corner...

You're not answering the point that there were many people out there at the time and no one saw Oswald..

WHO ??  WHO??? Knew Lee Oswald ???  Did any of the people out front know and recognize Lee??

WHERE?   Was BWF  when he saw Lee??  Was he on the EAST side of the TSBD ??

He was out in front by the steps...Probably on the sidewalk by the corner...

IOW.... You don't know if BWF was in a position to see the rear entrance to the building.....

Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 25, 2019, 10:23:09 PM
 Poor analysis Walt...Frazier saw Oswald come up Houston on the sidewalk...He obviously had to exit the rear of the Depository to do that...

When you people need to make Oswald appear in some place where he wasn't witnessed you automatically draw the "no one knew who Oswald was at the time" card even though Oswald was recognized in the places he was...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Logan on February 25, 2019, 10:54:07 PM
Does anybody have any testimony or an affidavit where Frazier says he left the stairs prior to going back into the TSBD and going downstairs to eat his couple of all important cheese sandwiches? When did Frazier have the opportunity to see Oswald outside after the shooting?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2019, 10:59:40 PM
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Poor analysis Walt...Frazier saw Oswald come up Houston on the sidewalk...He obviously had to exit the rear of the Depository to do that...

When you people need to make Oswald appear in some place where he wasn't witnessed you automatically draw the "no one knew who Oswald was at the time" card even though Oswald was recognized in the places he was...



.Frazier saw Oswald come up Houston on the sidewalk...He obviously had to exit the rear of the Depository to do that...

No ....Frazier SAID that he saw......  But Frazier was standing in front of the TSBD to the WEST of the front entrance....and all the exciting activity was taking place to the WEST  of him...( the railroad yards) so do you believe that he could see the rear of the building?....and do you think that he would not have been interested in watchung the railroad yard activity after hearing the gunfire??   

Bottom Line....Do you believe Frazier?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 25, 2019, 11:00:42 PM
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Does anybody have any testimony or an affidavit where Frazier says he left the stairs prior to going back into the TSBD and going downstairs to eat his couple of all important cheese sandwiches? When did Frazier have the opportunity to see Oswald outside after the shooting?

None of Mr B. Lovelady's official statements support his being outside on the steps at the time Messrs Hughes & Martin are filming, yet.... there he is!

Mr Frazier kept something hidden for nearly 40 years. And then he revealed it.

He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.

Thumb1:
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2019, 11:11:41 PM
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None of Mr B. Lovelady's official statements support his being outside on the steps at the time Messrs Hughes & Martin are filming, yet.... there he is!

Mr Frazier kept something hidden for nearly 40 years. And then he revealed it.

He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.

Thumb1:

He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.

I'll assume that you're referring to the paper bag.....   Personally I don't believe that Frazier saw Lee with an extra long paper bag that morning....

He might have seen a bag that was a bit longer than the usual lunch sack, but it was not even the 24 inch length that he said he saw.   

But in being fair....I can't blame him for trying to keep himself out of the fire.   However He is tuck with the story of seeing Lee carrying a long paper bag, and he dare not recant that tale.....because if he does....They'll get him for lying to the authorities.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 25, 2019, 11:18:26 PM
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He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.

But in being fair....I can't blame him for trying to keep himself out of the fire.   However He is stuck with the story of not seeing Lee carrying a long paper bag on the front steps at the time of the shooting, and he dare not recant that tale.....because if he does....They'll get him for lying to the authorities.....

 Thumb1:
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 25, 2019, 11:18:56 PM
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.Frazier saw Oswald come up Houston on the sidewalk...He obviously had to exit the rear of the Depository to do that...

No ....Frazier SAID that he saw......  But Frazier was standing in front of the TSBD to the WEST of the front entrance....and all the exciting activity was taking place to the WEST  of him...( the railroad yards) so do you believe that he could see the rear of the building?....and do you think that he would not have been interested in watchung the railroad yard activity after hearing the gunfire??   

Bottom Line....Do you believe Frazier?

Rubbish...

In the Gary Mack interview Mack asks Frazier "How far was Oswald from you when you witnessed this?"

Frazier replies "10 or 12 feet"...

It is obviously true because you can't find anyone who saw Oswald exit the front steps and there were many people out there...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2019, 11:24:49 PM
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Thumb1:

So You believe that BWF said that he did NOT see Lee on the front steps at the time of the shooting.?? Do I have that right mr Ford?

I would agree completely ....Because Frazier would have to be a very strange dude to be looking backward over his shoulder to see if Lee Oswald was on the Steps when all hell is breaking loose in front of him....
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 25, 2019, 11:40:09 PM

In that same Gary Mack interview Frazier said "Oswald definitely did not exit by the front door"...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 25, 2019, 11:54:37 PM
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In that same Gary Mack interview Frazier said "Oswald definitely did not exit by the front door"...

Lee may not have exited the front door.....I don't know and neither do you.....the ONLY person who would know was Lee Oswald.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Logan on February 25, 2019, 11:56:49 PM
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He has been keeping something else hidden for 55 years. One can only hope he will see his way to revealing it before he passes.

I'll assume that you're referring to the paper bag.....   Personally I don't believe that Frazier saw Lee with an extra long paper bag that morning....

He might have seen a bag that was a bit longer than the usual lunch sack, but it was not even the 24 inch length that he said he saw.   

But in being fair....I can't blame him for trying to keep himself out of the fire.   However He is stuck with the story of seeing Lee carrying a long paper bag, and he dare not recant that tale.....because if he does....They'll get him for lying to the authorities.....

So you've added another to your waiting line of threatened guillotine victims? What's the Federal and/or Texas statue of limitations on perjury ? 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 26, 2019, 03:18:20 AM
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on February 24, 2019, 01:37:53 PM
    "I meant Fritz's notes. Go have another [cup] of coffee."
 
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Apology accepted!  Thumb1:
I'm all thumbs at typing [and drinking coffee with the other hand] Regarding reply #50...Can you expand on that? Where do you really think Oswald was when the shots were fired? Final answer.
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So You believe that BWF said that he did NOT see Lee on the front steps at the time of the shooting.?? Do I have that right mr Ford? I would agree completely ....Because Frazier would have to be a very strange dude to be looking backward over his shoulder to see if Lee Oswald was on the Steps when all hell is breaking loose in front of him....
I suggested earlier that.. who would notice Oswald when President Kennedy was passing right in front of them?
 
DVP suggested...Reply #10
Quote
But they couldn't just simply TEAR UP AND THROW AWAY the original affidavit that says "drinking a Coke" and write up a new one, could they? No, they wanted to KEEP that document (and not even cross out the word "Coke" entirely, which was another possibility if they wanted to HIDE the Coke).
And in Reply #27.....  https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11921&relPageId=2
I don't think Hoover initially actually read that document. Do we think he thoroughly examined every single sheet of paper that may have crossed his desk? He signed [or his signature was stamped] on the cover sheet and passed on to the Commission people.
I also don't think the Commissioners read it or their staff scrutinized every word. It just showed up as a response to a request asking where everyone was located in that lunchroom encounter. Regarding the Baker note ...also written was -- "On the second  xxxxxxxxx" and then crossed out was?... I believe 'or third floor'. It was crossed out and initialed. The lunchroom was not on the third floor.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Logan on February 26, 2019, 12:10:07 PM
Frazier never states that he left the stairs. He says he stayed on the steps for a few minutes then went in and went down to the basement. There is no way Frazier saw Oswald "coming up Houston"  if he's being truthful. So where did Frazier actually see Oswald? Film shows Baker hitting the area in front of the steps while Frazier , who states he never saw Baker at all, is still standing on the steps. There are people in the front of the TSBD looking up to the upper floors of the building already before Baker is on the steps. Frazier is statuesque like a dazed nincompoop on the steps in front of the doors while numerous people are in the process of going back into the TSBD where something has occurred to cause people to look up to the windows. Frazier lied, Baker has no idea how long it took from his hearing the shots, parking his bike, running to the building , up the steps , attempting to catch an elevator to no avail then taking the stairs to the second floor lunchroom. All this in 90 seconds?  BS: BS: BS: The foundation of information that some of you internet detectives are utilizing is as bogus as the conclusions you have arrived at.
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 26, 2019, 03:40:54 PM
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Frazier never states that he left the stairs. He says he stayed on the steps for a few minutes then went in and went down to the basement. There is no way Frazier saw Oswald "coming up Houston"  if he's being truthful. So where did Frazier actually see Oswald? Film shows Baker hitting the area in front of the steps while Frazier , who states he never saw Baker at all, is still standing on the steps. There are people in the front of the TSBD looking up to the upper floors of the building already before Baker is on the steps. Frazier is statuesque like a dazed nincompoop on the steps in front of the doors while numerous people are in the process of going back into the TSBD where something has occurred to cause people to look up to the windows. Frazier lied, Baker has no idea how long it took from his hearing the shots, parking his bike, running to the building , up the steps , attempting to catch an elevator to no avail then taking the stairs to the second floor lunchroom. All this in 90 seconds?  BS: BS: BS: The foundation of information that some of you internet detectives are utilizing is as bogus as the conclusions you have arrived at.

 In Gary Savage's book where he interviewed Baker, Baker told him he took a long time to enter the Depository because of the crowd on the steps...What Kamp is doing is taking the veer Baker did at the last second trying to figure out how to get around the crowd on the steps and has turned it in to another Prayer Man group mass hallucination that then becomes fact just because Kamp utters it...

Steve's analysis is ignorant because we can see Truly turning his attention towards Baker in the Couch/Darnell film...Once inside it would take a very brief time for Baker & Truly to move quickly across the 1st floor open space to the northwest staircase...

Frazier's telling the truth...He knew Oswald didn't come out the front door because he was standing there...It doesn't take much to figure Oswald came up Houston from the rear loading dock exit once you know he didn't exit the front door...Frazier said in one of his interviews that he went to the sidewalk intending to go follow Lovelady & Shelley but then decided not to...That's when he saw Oswald...

Shelley got Oswald out the back door because this Oswald (Harvey) had a rendezvous at the Texas Theater he needed to make according to plan...This Oswald then headed up to the bus/taxi encounter...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Logan on February 26, 2019, 04:37:08 PM
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In Gary Savage's book where he interviewed Baker, Baker told him he took a long time to enter the Depository because of the crowd on the steps...What Kamp is doing is taking the veer Baker did at the last second trying to figure out how to get around the crowd on the steps and has turned it in to another Prayer Man group mass hallucination that then becomes fact just because Kamp utters it...

Steve's analysis is ignorant because we can see Truly turning his attention towards Baker in the Couch/Darnell film...Once inside it would take a very brief time for Baker & Truly to move quickly across the 1st floor open space to the northwest staircase...

Frazier's telling the truth...He knew Oswald didn't come out the front door because he was standing there...It doesn't take much to figure Oswald came up Houston from the rear loading dock exit once you know he didn't exit the front door...Frazier said in one of his interviews that he went to the sidewalk intending to go follow Lovelady & Shelley but then decided not to...That's when he saw Oswald...

Shelley got Oswald out the back door because this Oswald (Harvey) had a rendezvous at the Texas Theater he needed to make according to plan...This Oswald then headed up to the bus/taxi encounter...
As usual Brian the gutless coward ducks and hides from my original question. How and when did Frazier see Oswald coming up Houston ? Instead you give us your sackless fabrication in order to avoid answering a question you have no answer for. You should move to New York City and sell fake Rolex watches on street corners with the other shifty conmen. Frazier made it up. He lied. Like you. Produce the 'interview" where he confesses to perjuring himself while under oath about his actions after the shooting.
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 26, 2019, 05:10:11 PM
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As usual Brian the gutless coward ducks and hides from my original question. How and when did Frazier see Oswald coming up Houston ? Instead you give us your sackless fabrication in order to avoid answering a question you have no answer for. You should move to New York City and sell fake Rolex watches on street corners with the other shifty conmen. Frazier made it up. He lied. Like you. Produce the 'interview" where he confesses to perjuring himself while under oath about his actions after the shooting.

If you had any sense Gary Mack does not follow-through on Frazier's admission in his 2002 video interview because he is aware of the dangerous implications of Frazier's truthful admission...

A good detective, like myself, sees the veracity of Frazier's witnessing in the lack of any witnesses to Oswald coming out the front door...Including the cops...

Plus Lovelady is trying too hard to make Oswald come out the front door in Jarman's relaying of Lovelady's witnessing in Jarman's HSCA interview...He's doing that because he's covering-up for his partner Shelley who was involved with Oswald going out the back door...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Logan on February 26, 2019, 05:59:25 PM
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If you had any sense Gary Mack does not follow-through on Frazier's admission in his 2002 video interview because he is aware of the dangerous implications of Frazier's truthful admission...

A good detective, like myself, sees the veracity of Frazier's witnessing in the lack of any witnesses to Oswald coming out the front door...Including the cops...

Plus Lovelady is trying too hard to make Oswald come out the front door in Jarman's relaying of Lovelady's witnessing in Jarman's HSCA interview...He's doing that because he's covering-up for his partner Shelley who was involved with Oswald going out the back door...

Well you can empty the bubble water out of your Detective pistol because your playing detective days are over.
Here's some real detective work when it comes to you and your investigative skills:
SPECULATION
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
FABRICATION
an invention; a lie.
CONDESCENSION
an attitude of patronizing superiority; disdain.
NARCISSIST
a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
LATCHING ON TO HOAXES
imagine wasting two years of rants on a hoax
DUPED
imagine wasting additional years on a perceived female with the largest head ever to rest on a spine

You can hang up yer cowboy hat and put yer plastic badge away too.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 26, 2019, 06:28:23 PM
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Well you can empty the bubble water out of your Detective pistol because your playing detective days are over.
Here's some real detective work when it comes to you and your investigative skills:
SPECULATION
the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence.
FABRICATION
an invention; a lie.
CONDESCENSION
an attitude of patronizing superiority; disdain.
NARCISSIST
a person who has an excessive interest in or admiration of themselves.
LATCHING ON TO HOAXES
imagine wasting two years of rants on a hoax
DUPED
imagine wasting additional years on a perceived female with the largest head ever to rest on a spine

You can hang up yer cowboy hat and put yer plastic badge away too.

TROLLING...

My input is good as is seen in your inability to seriously answer it...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 26, 2019, 07:36:39 PM
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Ptm Baker had already given his testimony to the Warren Commission but for some unknown reason the FBI had him come in, sit down and hand write another affidavit just before the Commission's works went into print. This document was entered as CE-3076.
In his testimony, the Coke machine was mentioned but there was no mention of Oswald drinking a beverage.
However in his first mention of the lunchroom encounter Baker stated that they [He and Truly] had made their way up to the third or forth floor before Oswald was encountered. That seems rather puzzling. By the time he testified though, he had learned to count to two.
 "Mr. Belin - What happened?"
Mr. BAKER -" As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."         
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Mr Baker had mentioned that Oswald was drinking a coke in earlier interviews. Apparently this could have been the reasoning for the last minute affidavit. 
 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
 The words drinking a Coke are crossed out. I suppose it seemed a bit much to have to fit all that in after an alleged super dive from the sixth floor.

The original topic of this thread was..... about the affidavit that was written by an FBI agent under the guise that DPD officer Baker had recanted his testimony about seeing Lee Oswald "drinking a coke" in the second floor lunchroom just seconds after the shots were fired. 

At the time that Baker wrote his original affidavit on 11/22/63 nobody knew that the proposed THEORY was invalid.   Nobody was  aware that the timing involved in attempting to prove the validity the THEORY that the Lee Oswald had fired from the SE corner window, would be shown to be impossible by attempts to "re-enact" the crime.   That THEORY proposed that Lee Oswald ( who proclaimed he was a "patsy" and  innocent) had fired a rifle from the SE corner window on the sixth floor and then made a mad dash to the lunchroom on the second floor of the TSBD, where he was seen calmly drinking a coke by DPD officer Marrion Baker less than 90 seconds after the first shot was fired.

Weeks later in attempting to duplicate the feat that was proposed in the THEORY it was discovered that Lee Osweald could NOT have committed the crime because there simply was not enough time between the first shot of the rifle and the Baker's  encounter with Lee in the lunchroom. Lee simply could not have reached the lunchroom before Baker had reached the lunchroom ..... That was a FACT.   However the commission that had been created by Lyndon Johnson , the man who had leaped into the most powerful seat in government, immediately following the murder, refused to accept that cold hard FACT.....so they immediately started cutting corners in an attempt to cut the elapsed time of imaginary actions of Lee Oswald. The first thing that had to go was the location of the rifle....

That rifle had been found BURIED beneath heavy boxes of books near the top of the stairs in the NW corner of the building.   And Not only was the rifle BURIED BENEATH boxes of books, it was 15' 4" from the north wall of the building which made it out of reach for the proposed assassin as he supposedly dashed by as he fled from the sixth floor.   LBJ's agents realized that it would have taken several minutes for the rifle to be hidden as it had been found, so they moved the location of the rifle closer to the stairs and simply inserted it between boxes of books and snapped pictures that were presented as authentic pictures of the scene. 
But even that bit of deception was not enough to allow Lee Oswald to have reached the second floor lunchroom ahead of Marrion Baker who had said that he saw Lee calmly drinking a coke.  If Lee had had enough time to buy a coke and had been drinking it, then that would have required that he had to have arrived at least thirty seconds before Baker arrived..... And there simply was not enough time available in the proposed THEORY   

The problem arose when LBJ's agents started reviewing their work prior to the publication of the evidence.   In reviewing that evidence they recognized that they could not simply burn Baker's affidavit, and claim that he had never told Chief Curry that he'd seen the murderous villain  Oswald calmly drinking a coke after the shooting.   The DPD had originally attempted to paint the image of Lee Oswald, as a mad man who could toast his feat of murder, by calmly drinking a Coca-Cola, and that story was published for the public.  Thus They were forced to try to find some other way to expunge that "drinking a coke" from the record.... 

That's when one of LBJ's agent hit on the idea of creating another Baker affidavit .   An affidavit that mentioned the act of drinking a coke but then expunged that entry by a simple crossing out of the words but still leaving them readable....   Sure, they could have torn up that affidavit and rewrote it and left out the "Drinking a coke" entry...but that was not the intent.  Or they could have blacked out the words completely , but the whole idea behind the phony affidavit was to expunge the "drinking a coke"





Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 26, 2019, 08:01:02 PM

Quote
I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."         

Baker's lying here...The reason he's being mushy and conspicuously hesitating on how exactly he saw Oswald is because he knows he saw Oswald staring dead back at him and then flinching away from the vestibule window...He can't say that directly, which is the source of the obvious hesitation over it in this interview...Baker can't honestly tell the Commission how he saw Oswald and that he was standing stationary in the vestibule window because it then becomes clear he was set-up there and standing for the whole time...It wouldn't take long for some clever observer to realize this real witnessing showed Oswald was in the vestibule window the whole time because he was drawn there by Truly's shouting for the elevator and the gunshots...

Walt gets some of it but he doesn't comprehend the full picture...The Coke fits in to this the same way...It was also criminally ditched and lied over for the same reason...It showed Oswald was set-up where Carolyn Arnold saw him 6 minutes earlier and therefore exonerated him...Just like Hosty in his notes, Baker tried to get rid of this exonerating evidence by eliminating all the details in his 1st day affidavit...Both Hosty and Baker were later induced to include more of the details because the plotters realized their flagrant omissions in their original notes were too obvious and incriminated them as deliberately covering-up...They realized they couldn't get away with the first notes because of witnesses like Carolyn Arnold and Mrs Reid...

I discovered very important affirmation of the Coke in my interview with Sarah Stanton's relatives...The idiots in the research community ignore it and do their best not to credit me for it because I've smoked too many of them in fair debate where they can't ban me...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Logan on February 26, 2019, 08:10:44 PM
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TROLLING...

My input is good as is seen in your inability to seriously answer it...
Ok Magnum PI, seeing that you support that cockamamie Two Oswald crap,
Which Oswald went out the front and which Oswald went out by the rear? Did they both go out the back or the front? How far apart did they exit the building from each other? Unless you believe they were holding hands.
You can start lying at any time.
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 26, 2019, 08:17:06 PM
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Ok Magnum PI, seeing that you support that cockamamie that Two Oswald crap,
Which Oswald went out the front and which Oswald went out by the rear? Did they both go out the back or the front? How far apart did they exit the building from each other? Unless you believe they were holding hands.
You can start lying at any time.

Frazier said he saw his Oswald at 5 to 10 minutes after the shots...The other witnessing lines up closer to 5 minutes after...

Mrs Reid saw a white T-shirt wearing Oswald...Roger Craig said his Oswald got in the station wagon about 10 minutes after the shots...

Both Oswald's had witnesses who said they came from the rear of the Depository...I can't find the name of the woman who saw Roger Craig's come out the back but I have seen it posted somewhere...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Steve Logan on February 26, 2019, 08:45:06 PM
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Frazier said he saw his Oswald at 5 to 10 minutes after the shots...The other witnessing lines up closer to 5 minutes after...

Mrs Reid saw a white T-shirt wearing Oswald...Roger Craig said his Oswald got in the station wagon about 10 minutes after the shots...

Both Oswald's had witnesses who said they came from the rear of the Depository...I can't find the name of the woman who saw Roger Craig's come out the back but I have seen it posted somewhere...

Then like fine tuned Swiss watches they both eventually ended up at the same theater. One in the balcony(the sinister one) eating popcorn and one innocent patsy sitting downstairs waiting to get his civil rights violated. Is that your results deduced by your best on the internet detective skills? Just brilliant.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 01:43:10 AM
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Then like fine tuned Swiss watches they both eventually ended up at the same theater. One in the balcony(the sinister one) eating popcorn and one innocent patsy sitting downstairs waiting to get his civil rights violated. Is that your results deduced by your best on the internet detective skills? Just brilliant.

Geeeeez.... What a revoltin development this is .... I find myself agreeing with Slo Gun...
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 27, 2019, 05:09:52 AM
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Then like fine tuned Swiss watches they both eventually ended up at the same theater. One in the balcony(the sinister one) eating popcorn and one innocent patsy sitting downstairs waiting to get his civil rights violated. Is that your results deduced by your best on the internet detective skills? Just brilliant.

Nope...If you knew the evidence the bottom floor Oswald was the one who had the time to buy the popcorn...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 05:53:17 PM
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Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein!  Thumb1:

If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Where did you find this Mr Ford?

I'd love to read the entire page......
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 06:34:49 PM
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Frazier said he saw his Oswald at 5 to 10 minutes after the shots...The other witnessing lines up closer to 5 minutes after...

Mrs Reid saw a white T-shirt wearing Oswald...Roger Craig said his Oswald got in the station wagon about 10 minutes after the shots...

Both Oswald's had witnesses who said they came from the rear of the Depository...I can't find the name of the woman who saw Roger Craig's come out the back but I have seen it posted somewhere...

Mrs Reid saw a white T-shirt wearing Oswald..

This fact that Mrs Reid could not accurately describe the clothing that Lee was wearing when Baker and Truly saw him in the lunchroom just a couple of minutes earlier than Mrs Reid's alleged sighting of Lee Oswald. (Baker said that Lee was wearing a brown shirt or Jacket),so Mrs Reid's description should be enough to cause an alert student to question the validity of Mrs Reid's statement.

And there are other factors that cast serious doubt on Mrs Reid's statement that she had met Lee Oswald as he walked through the Office area a couple of minutes after the shooting.
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 27, 2019, 07:04:42 PM
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Mrs Reid saw a white T-shirt wearing Oswald..

This fact that Mrs Reid could not accurately describe the clothing that Lee was wearing when Baker and Truly saw him in the lunchroom just a couple of minutes earlier than Mrs Reid's alleged sighting of Lee Oswald. (Baker said that Lee was wearing a brown shirt or Jacket),so Mrs Reid's description should be enough to cause an alert student to question the validity of Mrs Reid's statement.

And there are other factors that cast serious doubt on Mrs Reid's statement that she had met Lee Oswald as he walked through the Office area a couple of minutes after the shooting.

You're just repeating the same already-answered stuff...

The bus Oswald was wearing a long-sleeved shirt...The Mrs Reid and Roger Craig Oswald was wearing a white T-shirt...

Karen Westbrook told Fagin in her 6th Floor Museum interview that Mrs Reid told the ladies of witnessing Oswald walk through the offices with a Coke during their being detained in the 2nd floor offices by the cops...I've already posted this several times...

"Doubt" by whom Walt? Bart Kamp?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 07:10:52 PM
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You're just repeating the same already-answered stuff...

The bus Oswald was wearing a long-sleeved shirt...The Mrs Reid and Roger Craig Oswald was wearing a white T-shirt...

Karen Westbrook told Fagin in her 6th Floor Museum interview that Mrs Reid told the ladies of witnessing Oswald walk through the offices with a Coke during their being detained in the 2nd floor offices by the cops...I've already posted this several times...

"Doubt" by whom Walt? Bart Kamp?

Any student who is seriously seeking the truth should doubt Mrs Reid's veracity and her testimony.... 
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 27, 2019, 09:28:21 PM
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Any student who is seriously seeking the truth should doubt Mrs Reid's veracity and her testimony....


Just the opposite...Karen Westbrook's witnessing that you flagrantly ignore proves Mrs Reid's witnessing was real because she told the other female employees about it minutes after it happened...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 27, 2019, 09:30:58 PM
You shot JFK from the sixth floor, but you've been nabbed in a movie theater. The police captain is now grilling you. What do you tell him about where you were when JFK was shot?

Easy! You work with what you've got:
-----------a sighting way down on the second floor by your bossman and a police officer
-----------a sighting seconds later by a lady who works in the big office.

'I was in the lunchroom on the second floor the whole time. First thing I knew anything was wrong was when a police officer came bursting in. Ask my boss, Mr Truly, he'll confirm what I'm saying. And just after that I spoke with a lady in the big office. Mrs Reed I think her name is. Talk to her.'

What you don't do is look a gift horse in the mouth by saying
---------------nothing about a confrontation with a police officer down in the lunchroom straight after the shooting
---------------not a blessed word about 'Mrs Reed'
---------------'Uh, I bought a coke in the lunchroom before the Presidential Parade and then went outside to watch the Parade'.

Bookhout & co's big mistake was not that they put words in the dead Mr Oswald's mouth but that they invented words so self-incriminatingly stupid as to give their squalid little game away.

What they should have done was have the dead Mr Oswald say, 'I don't have to tell you anything about where I was. This is political harassment on account of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I demand a shower. My lawyer will consider your keeping me here like this a violation of my hygiene rights'.

Shudda kept it simple, guys!

But hey, it worked for 55 years. And some folks are still fooled by it!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 09:53:23 PM
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You shot JFK from the sixth floor, but you've been nabbed in a movie theater. The police captain is now grilling you. What do you tell him about where you were when JFK was shot?

Easy! You work with what you've got:
-----------a sighting way down on the second floor by your bossman and a police officer
-----------a sighting seconds later by a lady who works in the big office.

'I was in the lunchroom on the second floor the whole time. First thing I knew anything was wrong was when a police officer came bursting in. Ask my boss, Mr Truly, he'll confirm what I'm saying. And just after that I spoke with a lady in the big office. Mrs Reed I think her name is. Talk to her.'

What you don't do is look a gift horse in the mouth by saying
---------------nothing about a confrontation with a police officer down in the lunchroom straight after the shooting
---------------not a blessed word about 'Mrs Reed'
---------------'Uh, I'd gone outside to watch the Presidential Parade'.

Bookhout & co's big mistake was not that they put words in the dead Mr Oswald's mouth but that they invented words so self-incriminatingly stupid as to give their squalid little game away.

What they should have done was have the dead Mr Oswald say, 'I don't have to tell you anything about where I was. This is political harassment on account of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I demand a shower. My lawyer will consider your keeping me here like this a violation of my hygiene rights'.

Shudda kept it simple, guys!  Thumb1:

Alan you're using 20/20 hindsight.....

What do you tell him about where you were when JFK was shot?

Nobody said anything to Lee about being a suspect in the murder of JFK....  Read the notes....


Easy! You work with what you've got:
-----------a sighting way down on the second floor by your bossman and a police officer


Why would Lee present an alibi for something that he's not been accused of?


-----------a sighting seconds later by a lady who works in the big office.

A lady that if she had seen and talked to Lee could provide an alibi .... But Lee doesn't even mention Mrs Reid.  and that's a pretty strong indication that there was no meeting or encounter in the office area.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 27, 2019, 10:12:55 PM
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This fact that Mrs Reid could not accurately describe the clothing that Lee was wearing when Baker and Truly saw him in the lunchroom just a couple of minutes earlier than Mrs Reid's alleged sighting of Lee Oswald. (Baker said that Lee was wearing a brown shirt or Jacket),so Mrs Reid's description should be enough to cause an alert student to question the validity of Mrs Reid's statement.

Actually it was the man walking away from the stairway on the 3rd or 4th floor who Baker said was wearing a brown jacket.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 27, 2019, 10:43:25 PM
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Actually it was the man walking away from the stairway on the 3rd or 4th floor who Baker said was wearing a brown jacket.

Thank you, That's correct .....  But Baker DID see Lee Oswald in the second floor lunchroom as well as the man who was walking away from the stairs on an upper floor.

I simply can't recall if Baker ever attested to the clothing that Lee was wearing when he saw him calmly drinking a Coca-Cola in the second floor lunchroom.

 
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2019, 12:06:39 AM
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Easy! You work with what you've got:
-----------a sighting way down on the second floor by your bossman and a police officer


Why would Lee present an alibi for something that he's not been accused of?

As I've suggested before,
-------------Mr Oswald was asked in that first interrogation where he'd been at the time of the shooting, and his answer (out watching the parade) stunned them
-------------from this point forth, he was grilled on the rifle and on Tippit, and given the impression that he was suspected not of having personally shot JFK but of having been in on the assassination. (This last was done to Messrs Frazier and Molina as well.)

The first wind he got of a direct accusation of having been the actual shooter was "when the reporters in the hall axed [him] that question". He knew that the accusation was utterly absurd, and assumed the press had simply gotten the wrong end of the stick.

Why didn't he shout to the pressmen, "I was out on the front steps!"? Those asking this question need to ask themselves why he didn't shout, "I was down on the second floor! My boss saw me there!"

Having been kept in the dark by Fritz, he had no idea that the need for an alibi even arose. Any more than he knew that he wouldn't be leaving the weekend alive.


Quote
-----------a sighting seconds later by a lady who works in the big office.

A lady that if she had seen and talked to Lee could provide an alibi .... But Lee doesn't even mention Mrs Reid.  and that's a pretty strong indication that there was no meeting or encounter in the office area.

Correct! But Mrs Reid was fed to DPD by Mr Truly. Her fiction supported his.

There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter. That it became such a great fetish of CTers helps explain why Mr Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the shooting are only emerging in recent years! (The other great factor was that any suggestion Mr Oswald was out front became associated with the barmy Oswald-In-Altgens army. When Prayer Man came along, the comfort-zone CTers straight out refused to give it a fair hearing. They still do!)
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 28, 2019, 12:55:04 AM
The white T-shirt Oswald that Mrs Reid saw wasn't the same Oswald who was interrogated at the police station...

That's why the "Oswald" who was interrogated never mentioned seeing Mrs Reid...

Rock solid evidence of the two Oswald's at the Depository that gets ignored by those pretending to do honest debate of assassination evidence...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2019, 08:24:02 PM
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As I've suggested before,
-------------Mr Oswald was asked in that first interrogation where he'd been at the time of the shooting, and his answer (out watching the parade) stunned them
-------------from this point forth, he was grilled on the rifle and on Tippit, and given the impression that he was suspected not of having personally shot JFK but of having been in on the assassination. (This last was done to Messrs Frazier and Molina as well.)

The first wind he got of a direct accusation of having been the actual shooter was "when the reporters in the hall axed [him] that question". He knew that the accusation was utterly absurd, and assumed the press had simply gotten the wrong end of the stick.

Why didn't he shout to the pressmen, "I was out on the front steps!"? Those asking this question need to ask themselves why he didn't shout, "I was down on the second floor! My boss saw me there!"

Having been kept in the dark by Fritz, he had no idea that the need for an alibi even arose. Any more than he knew that he wouldn't be leaving the weekend alive.


Correct! But Mrs Reid was fed to DPD by Mr Truly. Her fiction supported his.

There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter. That it became such a great fetish of CTers helps explain why Mr Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the shooting are only emerging in recent years! (The other great factor was that any suggestion Mr Oswald was out front became associated with the barmy Oswald-In-Altgens army. When Prayer Man came along, the comfort-zone CTers straight out refused to give it a fair hearing. They still do!)

There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter. That it became such a great fetish of CTers helps explain why Mr Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the shooting are only emerging in recent years! (The other great factor was that any suggestion Mr Oswald was out front became associated with the barmy Oswald-In-Altgens army. When Prayer Man came along, the comfort-zone CTers straight out refused to give it a fair hearing. They still do!)


Alan, You have posted the scribbled notes of the interrogation of Lee Oswald, so you certainly must know that both the accused ( Lee Oswald)... and the accuser( The State, represented by Marrion Baker)  were in total agreement that they had met in the second floor lunchroom just seconds after the shots were fired.   

So how can you say that it didn't happen?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Ford on February 28, 2019, 09:46:09 PM
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There was no post-assassination lunchroom encounter. That it became such a great fetish of CTers helps explain why Mr Oswald's true whereabouts at the time of the shooting are only emerging in recent years! (The other great factor was that any suggestion Mr Oswald was out front became associated with the barmy Oswald-In-Altgens army. When Prayer Man came along, the comfort-zone CTers straight out refused to give it a fair hearing. They still do!)


Alan, You have posted the scribbled notes of the interrogation of Lee Oswald, so you certainly must know that both the accused ( Lee Oswald)... and the accuser( The State, represented by Marrion Baker)  were in total agreement that they had met in the second floor lunchroom just seconds after the shots were fired.   

So how can you say that it didn't happen?

Already explained, Mr Cakebread!

The 'Fritz' notes are not Fritz's own scribbled notes of the interrogation of Mr Oswald. They are Fritz's scribbled notes of Agent Bookhout's version of what Mr Oswald said in custody
----------the same Agent Bookhout who suppressed Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the 2nd fl lunchroom before the assassination and gone "outside to watch P. Parade"
----------the same Agent Bookhout who put an absurd claimed timeline into Mr Oswald's mouth.

Geddit now?  ::)
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on February 28, 2019, 09:55:28 PM
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Already explained, Mr Cakebread!

The 'Fritz' notes are not Fritz's own scribbled notes of the interrogation of Mr Oswald. They are Fritz's scribbled notes of Agent Bookhout's version of what Mr Oswald said in custody
----------the same Agent Bookhout who suppressed Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the 2nd fl lunchroom before the assassination and gone "outside to watch P. Parade"
----------the same Agent Bookhout who put an absurd claimed timeline into Mr Oswald's mouth.

Geddit now?  ::)


All this depends on ignoring that Carolyn Arnold saw Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room at 12:25, making the suggestion that Oswald went down to the front steps right after Carolyn Arnold's witnessing very unlikely...

The majority JFK research world are suckers because they don't see evidence hackers Sean Murphy and Peg Barker needing to get rid of the 2nd floor lunch room encounter because they were aware the real evidence made Oswald being Prayer Man very unlikely...

Ford just ignores the technical photographic evidence we have proven that shows Prayer Man is Depository employee Sarah Stanton...

I just watched Buell Frazier's 6th Floor Museum interview with Fagin...At 33:48 Frazier is referring to speaking to Sarah and when recounting it he gestures with his right hand as if Sarah was over to his right...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on February 28, 2019, 09:59:47 PM
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Already explained, Mr Cakebread!

The 'Fritz' notes are not Fritz's own scribbled notes of the interrogation of Mr Oswald. They are Fritz's scribbled notes of Agent Bookhout's version of what Mr Oswald said in custody
----------the same Agent Bookhout who suppressed Mr Oswald's claim to have visited the 2nd fl lunchroom before the assassination and gone "outside to watch P. Parade"
----------the same Agent Bookhout who put an absurd claimed timeline into Mr Oswald's mouth.

Geddit now?  ::)

Yes...I understand that you think Fritz copied Bookhout's notes.... But I think that you've been smokin some funny tobacco...  One glance at Fritz disorganized, truncated, scribbling would be enough to convince any rational person that Fritz jotted those notes as he heard Lee's replies.....
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 28, 2019, 02:12:55 AM
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Thank you for your clear answer, Mr von Pein!  Thumb1:

If Mr Oswald did indeed indeed confirm the 2nd floor lunchroom incident, then how do we explain this from Agent Hosty?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)

Did Mr Oswald tell Captain Fritz he went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front to watch the parade, then (just after the shooting) went to the 2nd fl lunchroom to buy a coke, came downstairs to eat his lunch, went out front?

(https://i.imgur.com/bEXuLJC.jpg)
(http://jfkforum.com/images/HostyInterrogationNotes.jpg)

THe penmanship appears to be the same.....

AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:

Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.

s/ M. L. Baker

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963

/s/ Mary Rattan
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 28, 2019, 04:52:46 PM
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Ptm Baker had already given his testimony to the Warren Commission but for some unknown reason the FBI had him come in, sit down and hand write another affidavit just before the Commission's works went into print. This document was entered as CE-3076.
In his testimony, the Coke machine was mentioned but there was no mention of Oswald drinking a beverage.
However in his first mention of the lunchroom encounter Baker stated that they [He and Truly] had made their way up to the third or forth floor before Oswald was encountered. That seems rather puzzling. By the time he testified though, he had learned to count to two.
 "Mr. Belin - What happened?"
Mr. BAKER -" As I came out to the second floor there, Mr. Truly was ahead of me, and as I come out I was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and I caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--I happened to see him through this window in this door. I don't know how come I saw him, but I had a glimpse of him coming down there."         
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm
Mr Baker had mentioned that Oswald was drinking a coke in earlier interviews. Apparently this could have been the reasoning for the last minute affidavit. 
 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)
 The words drinking a Coke are crossed out. I suppose it seemed a bit much to have to fit all that in after an alleged super dive from the sixth floor.

 (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/c649blf3s1cnge3/CE%203076.jpg?dl=0)

"On the second or third floor where the lunchroom is located I saw a man standing in the room and drinking a Coke".....
Title: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 28, 2019, 04:57:37 PM

No doubt the same Coke Oswald was witnessed drinking by Sarah Stanton...
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Mike Orr on April 29, 2019, 11:02:19 PM
If the soda was not a big deal then why would someone have looked at that and said " You know , come to think of it , I'm not sure now if LHO had a soda in his hand or not , but since the FBI said he did not have a soda in his hand, well they are always right because if he did then that would mean he had to dig the change out of his pocket and insert the change into the soda machine and then pull out the soda and open it and that would have just taken him a little longer than we thought for him to have made those shots and then mosey on down to the breakroom . Damn FBI , they are good ! Whew ! Hoover tells LBJ on the 29th of Nov. that LHO had made 3 shots in 3 seconds . Hoover was such an idiot !
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 30, 2019, 12:28:11 AM
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If the soda was not a big deal then why would someone have looked at that and said " You know , come to think of it , I'm not sure now if LHO had a soda in his hand or not , but since the FBI said he did not have a soda in his hand, well they are always right because if he did then that would mean he had to dig the change out of his pocket and insert the change into the soda machine and then pull out the soda and open it and that would have just taken him a little longer than we thought for him to have made those shots and then mosey on down to the breakroom . Damn FBI , they are good ! Whew ! Hoover tells LBJ on the 29th of Nov. that LHO had made 3 shots in 3 seconds . Hoover was such an idiot !

Actually Hoover was insane....   Very much like Adolph Hitler.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Thomas Graves on May 12, 2019, 06:56:55 PM
Brian Doyle wrote:

Walt represents the unskilled researchers we are unfortunately subjected to...No serious researcher would ever say in public that Oswald could not hear the shots...This person obviously has no familiarity with gun fire...The firing of a high powered combat rifle is something no one misses due to simple physics and science...

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Brian, are you aware that 2 witnesses inside the TSBD at the time of the assassination did not hear any shots?

Edna Case: ". . . I was at my desk on the third floor looking out the window located on the west side of the building. I did not hear any shots . . ."
Sandra Sue Elerson: " . . . I was looking out the third floor window trying to get a view of the President's car. . . . I did not hear any shots or any loud sounds that sounded like rifle fire."

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

I am not claiming that Oswald did not hear any shots, and I am not saying I agree with Walt. I'm taking issue with your blanket claim that the "firing of a high powered rifle is something that no one misses. . ." And perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the testimony of all the witnesses before denigrating others as unskilled researchers.

Excellent post, John.

Just last night I was wondering whether or not Oswald (if he wasn't a shooter, of course) heard the shots.

If so, then he understood precisely what the reporter meant by "at the time," and, if he was innocent, he probably answered him truthfully -- after all, why would he lie and say he was inside if he was outside? -- when the reporter asked him, "Were you in the building at the time?," and Oswald replied, "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

If Oswald was innocent and heard the shooting while inside the building, wouldn't he have looked out a window to see what was going on?  Just firecrackers? Backfires? OMG, shots? Or run downstairs, or, if you prefer, run outside from "where he was eating" -- the Domino Room -- to do same?

If it turns out that Prayer Person is not Oswald, wouldn't that tend to incriminate him, especially if we are to believe that he was eating his lunch in the nearby Domino Room "at the time"?

Is that what John Iacoletti is so worried about?

-- MWT   ;)
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Alan Hardaker on May 14, 2019, 12:01:44 AM
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Thumb1: Of course that is what I meant by 'it didn't look good'. The precious seconds it took to wiggle around the book stacks on the sixth floor...conceal a weapon... fly down the stairs ...dig change out of a pocket...select the right coins...deposit money...select drink...wait for drink to ka-chink out of the machine...open...then start consuming, didn't sit well with the concept of an agitated killer going on the run. 
 

Wouldn't be that LHO was cute enough to think "I'll crab a coke"...thinking what would look more natural and casual for an employee to be getting a coke..what could be more innocent looking that that.
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: John Iacoletti on May 16, 2019, 09:29:00 PM
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If it turns out that Prayer Person is not Oswald, wouldn't that tend to incriminate him, especially if we are to believe that he was eating his lunch in the nearby Domino Room "at the time"?

Is that what John Iacoletti is so worried about?

Why would John Iacoletti be worried about your hypothetical questions?

Is there any good reason to think that a person sitting in the domino room would have heard shots?  Did Troy West hear any shots from his position on the first floor which was closer to Elm Street?
Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Zeon Mason on May 21, 2019, 01:11:00 PM
Imo, Oswald may have had a Dr.Pepper in hand BEFORE he came up to the 2nd floor, which would be not later than probably 12:12 given Carolyn Arnolds observation of Oswald actually SITTING in the 2nd floor lunchroom at 12:15 earliest to 12:20 latest. Yet, neither Stanton, nor Arnold apparently saw each other.

 the late date Stanton relative  recalling the story of a "Pepsi". That is rather close to "Pepper". Not coke, but "pepsi"? . Maybe its just a coincidence, idk.

And it would have been very easy for Sarah to have distinguished between a 1963 coke bottle and a 1963  Dr.Pepper bottle due the large solid white label of Dr.Pepper at lower 1/3rd part of the bottle, so not that implausible  that Sarah might have actually stated the specific name. Nor that a relative many years later might misremember Dr.Pepper as "pepsi"

So this would change the hypothetical sequence to:

Oswald went to the Dr.Pepper machine on the 1st floor by rear stairs, got the Dr.Pepper, then went up to eat his lunch ALONE in the 2nd floor lunchroom, hoping that all the office woman had already left. This eating in the lunchroom alone, is alluded to by Billy Lovelady in an FBI statement refering to Oswald doing just that.

This may be why Stanton may have told the story to the relative as having seen Oswald just standing around in the area as opposed to having stated seeing Oswald go in or come out of, the lunchroom with the "pepsi" in hand.

At some point Oswald must have gone back down to the Domino room, having decided not to stay in the lunchroom after Carolyn Arnold saw him there. This is about the only way that Oswald could reasonably have probable view and also heard, James Jarman and Harold Norman returning to TSBD back door around 12:23.

That would be when Oswald likely would have left the Domino room and head towards the front lobby, reaching there around 12:24 or 12:25. That coincides with another Carolyn Arnold FBI statement of having seen Oswald at 12:25 on the 1st floor, as she "looked back". That FBI statement, Arnold actually signed her name.

Add in the 2 new 'notes" revealing "out front with Shelly" and "went out to watch P.Parade, and then Dr.Pepper bottle found, in the very recessed step, the one step down, that Prayerblob is located, and with some object raised to mouth with large white spot,  on the West side of landing...it SURE IS AMAZINGLY coincidental.




Title: Re: ML Baker Sept '64 FBI Affidavit- Oswald and the Soda
Post by: Anthony Clayden on May 28, 2019, 11:23:27 PM
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Brian Doyle wrote:

Walt represents the unskilled researchers we are unfortunately subjected to...No serious researcher would ever say in public that Oswald could not hear the shots...This person obviously has no familiarity with gun fire...The firing of a high powered combat rifle is something no one misses due to simple physics and science...

Excellent post, John.

Just last night I was wondering whether or not Oswald (if he wasn't a shooter, of course) heard the shots.

If so, then he understood precisely what the reporter meant by "at the time," and, if he was innocent, he probably answered him truthfully -- after all, why would he lie and say he was inside if he was outside? -- when the reporter asked him, "Were you in the building at the time?," and Oswald replied, "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes sir."

If Oswald was innocent and heard the shooting while inside the building, wouldn't he have looked out a window to see what was going on?  Just firecrackers? Backfires? OMG, shots? Or run downstairs, or, if you prefer, run outside from "where he was eating" -- the Domino Room -- to do same?

If it turns out that Prayer Person is not Oswald, wouldn't that tend to incriminate him, especially if we are to believe that he was eating his lunch in the nearby Domino Room "at the time"?

Is that what John Iacoletti is so worried about?

-- MWT   ;)


Dougherty was on the rear of the fifth floor and testified to only hearing one loud noise.