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Author Topic: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting  (Read 70670 times)

Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #208 on: January 30, 2019, 01:29:31 PM »
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That's ok because your subjective view creates an impossible narrative. You base the time of the first shot on nothing except cobbling together pieces of nonsense. No one sees a man in the window, out of the window firing and then back in the window. Sorry but if there was a man firing a weapon(one they can prove was used, which they can't prove it was a Mauser or a  Mannlicher Carcano) then there is only enough time to take one potshot, that does not mean 2 or 3 it means 1 as in 1.

I see. So, because you can't figure out the position of when the Hughes fil cuts off relative to the corresponding zframe, and you believe the witness testimony that sees a sniper firing from the SN, three witnesses sitting just below the sixth floor hearing three shots of which one describes hearing the sounds of three movements of a rifle bolt and three empty hulls dropping on the floor and other witnesses seeing a rifle barrel, what appears to be a rifle barrel or movement in the SN window, is just nonsense because they can't prove what type of rifle it was therefore there's no need for a discussion. Talk about creating an impossible narrative.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #208 on: January 30, 2019, 01:29:31 PM »


Offline Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #209 on: January 30, 2019, 02:25:59 PM »
I see. So, because you can't figure out the position of when the Hughes fil cuts off relative to the corresponding zframe, and you believe the witness testimony that sees a sniper firing from the SN, three witnesses sitting just below the sixth floor hearing three shots of which one describes hearing the sounds of three movements of a rifle bolt and three empty hulls dropping on the floor and other witnesses seeing a rifle barrel, what appears to be a rifle barrel or movement in the SN window, is just nonsense because they can't prove what type of rifle it was therefore there's no need for a discussion. Talk about creating an impossible narrative.
At z157-60 there is no visual evidence, but of course, 3 individuals claim to hear all this bs when none of them can prove this. Nothing supports their claim. Nothing supports where you have chosen to say the gunfire started. You would believe anything. Use your head.

Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #210 on: January 30, 2019, 02:32:03 PM »
Seems you are incapable of responding when your claims are proven incorrect. I just posted the proof that Brennan did not take position as early as you claimed.....also your offering of the 6th floor motorcade timeline that was proven incorrect. I provided the primary source, something that took me about 2 minutes to find on the web. Decker's call about Main from the police transcripts. You simply ignore those offerings and now you cherrypick Norman's 12.15 call as if it is gospel and impacts in any way on the timing analysis. Yet you think the same witness made up the memory of a Main Street call. Do you trust the guy or not.....or simply when he can be used in a pathetic attempt to nullify every other indicator that places them leaving much later.

You still refuse to agree or disagree with the notion that Jarman and Norman supported Williams first day statement. Seems when your "beliefs" are challenged and you are unable to mount anything like a sound foundation for you them and your "thoughts". They simply have the Oswald did it alone, Rowland was some sort of deluded clairvoyant and Craig the bald-faced liar, filter applied.

I prefer to live in the world where corroborated facts form the basis of meaningful debate. The ironic thing is my analysis does nothing to disprove the LN scenario. At least in a previous discussion John Mytton attempted to understand the ramifications of the assembled evidence and eventually concluded that Williams likely saw Oswald in the SN and was on the 6th floor after 12.25.

I visit this forum, (in the now apparently forlorn hope), to learn more about the topic, discuss and debate. I now hold no hope of any such meaningful outcomes eventuating with interactions with you, or any of your ilk.

I shall leave you in a state of bliss, with your religious LN convictions intact.

1) You have not proven the ambulance picked up the man with the epileptic fit before he sat on the retaining wall. The fact is the opposite. Brennan's own testimony describes him watching the man having an epileptic fit before he moves to the retaining wall and he doesn't even acknowledge seeing him being picked up by the ambulance. Them could be the others he saw before the ambulance arrived.

2)The motorcade timeline of it arriving at Main St. shows that it occurred before the 12:22 timestamp and I'll go with the 6th Floor Museum timeline of 12:21 with full confidence that they are much better equipped to determine the timeline than you or I.

3)You provide no evidence of how Norman could possibly have heard that the motorcade was at Main St. at either 12:21 or 12:22. yet cavalierly dismiss Norman's 12/4 statement to the SS that he went upstairs at 12:15

4)  IMO, you have formed a theory and use only that information which will conform to that theory disregarding evidence and common sense which would test that theory i.e..we can a difference of opinion on a matter which, as you said, does nothing to disprove that there was a sniper at the SN. To continuously haggle  over a timeline of which has zero effect on an outcome may be your interpretation of engaging in meaningful research but I just see it as a temporary diversion into an interesting topic worth of only limited discussion.

5) Since you like to flaunt living in a world were evidence is important in a discussion it's really surprising that you would even entertain the possibility that both Arnold Rowland and Roger Craig could be used to corroborate anything other than they're just a couple of liars.

6)IMO, John Mytton is a rational person with a great amount of knowledge on this subject but it doesn't mean that his decision to agree in whole or in part with your theory plays any part on how I arrive at my conclusions. Bringing John into the discussion might put a feather in your cap and be used in an attempt to bolster your credentials but it's completely meaningless when it comes to how I analyze the subject. Now if you were to bring up an expert on a particular field like Haag, Larry Sturdivan, Dr. Michael Baden..etc to bolster your argument then I would take their views and conclusions very seriously. No offense John but I didn't bring you into this debate.

7) I don't believe for a minute that you're presence in this forum is for the purpose stated.   IMO, you are just like the other (or most) of the CTers who are only interested in letting the unwashed know that from the cloud you inhabit everything can be seen clear as daylight and that the unwashed are stuck on the ground, walking through the muck and unable to be enlightened by your superior intellect and vision.

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #210 on: January 30, 2019, 02:32:03 PM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #211 on: January 30, 2019, 02:46:38 PM »
At z157-60 there is no visual evidence, but of course, 3 individuals claim to hear all this bs when none of them can prove this. Nothing supports their claim. Nothing supports where you have chosen to say the gunfire started. You would believe anything. Use your head.



Study the Zapruder film, study JBC testimony, study Rosemary Willis movements and see what Vincent Bugliosi has to say about Rosemary Willis in the notes section, pages 313-24. That would require that you stick your head out of the sand and would also force you to disregard the many blatant misrepresentations and lies that  make up the majority of the kook book library and filmography.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #212 on: January 30, 2019, 03:27:39 PM »
1) You have not proven the ambulance picked up the man with the epileptic fit before he sat on the retaining wall. The fact is the opposite. Brennan's own testimony describes him watching the man having an epileptic fit before he moves to the retaining wall and he doesn't even acknowledge seeing him being picked up by the ambulance. Them could be the others he saw before the ambulance arrived.

2)The motorcade timeline of it arriving at Main St. shows that it occurred before the 12:22 timestamp and I'll go with the 6th Floor Museum timeline of 12:21 with full confidence that they are much better equipped to determine the timeline than you or I.

3)You provide no evidence of how Norman could possibly have heard that the motorcade was at Main St. at either 12:21 or 12:22. yet cavalierly dismiss Norman's 12/4 statement to the SS that he went upstairs at 12:15

4)  IMO, you have formed a theory and use only that information which will conform to that theory disregarding evidence and common sense which would test that theory i.e..we can a difference of opinion on a matter which, as you said, does nothing to disprove that there was a sniper at the SN. To continuously haggle  over a timeline of which has zero effect on an outcome may be your interpretation of engaging in meaningful research but I just see it as a temporary diversion into an interesting topic worth of only limited discussion.

5) Since you like to flaunt living in a world were evidence is important in a discussion it's really surprising that you would even entertain the possibility that both Arnold Rowland and Roger Craig could be used to corroborate anything other than they're just a couple of liars.

6)IMO, John Mytton is a rational person with a great amount of knowledge on this subject but it doesn't mean that his decision to agree in whole or in part with your theory plays any part on how I arrive at my conclusions. Bringing John into the discussion might put a feather in your cap and be used in an attempt to bolster your credentials but it's completely meaningless when it comes to how I analyze the subject. Now if you were to bring up an expert on a particular field like Haag, Larry Sturdivan, Dr. Michael Baden..etc to bolster your argument then I would take their views and conclusions very seriously. No offense John but I didn't bring you into this debate.

7) I don't believe for a minute that you're presence in this forum is for the purpose stated.   IMO, you are just like the other (or most) of the CTers who are only interested in letting the unwashed know that from the cloud you inhabit everything can be seen clear as daylight and that the unwashed are stuck on the ground, walking through the muck and unable to be enlightened by your superior intellect and vision.


3)You provide no evidence of how Norman could possibly have heard that the motorcade was at Main St. at either 12:21 or 12:22. yet cavalierly dismiss Norman's 12/4 statement to the SS that he went upstairs at 12:15

Junior Jarman said they heard the radio on the Police motorcycle report that the Motorcade was approaching Main Street ...  And we know that occurred at 12:22....

A couple of minutes later Jarman and Norman decided that they had enough time to go to the fifth floor where they could get a better view of the parade.....

They passed through the first floor shipping department at about 12:26......And Lee Oswald saw them.....

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #212 on: January 30, 2019, 03:27:39 PM »


Offline Oscar Navarro

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #213 on: January 30, 2019, 03:43:46 PM »

3)You provide no evidence of how Norman could possibly have heard that the motorcade was at Main St. at either 12:21 or 12:22. yet cavalierly dismiss Norman's 12/4 statement to the SS that he went upstairs at 12:15

Junior Jarman said they heard the radio on the Police motorcycle report that the Motorcade was approaching Main Street ...  And we know that occurred at 12:22....

A couple of minutes later Jarman and Norman decided that they had enough time to go to the fifth floor where they could get a better view of the parade.....

They passed through the first floor shipping department at about 12:26......And Lee Oswald saw them.....

Show were Junior Jarman said he heard a motorcycle report...?..they also went around to the building

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #214 on: January 30, 2019, 04:25:50 PM »
Show were Junior Jarman said he heard a motorcycle report...?..they also went around to the building

Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. JARMAN - We went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You say you went around. You mean you went around the building?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - You didn't go through and cross the first floor?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway so we decided to go around.
Mr. BALL - You went in the back door?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.
Mr. BALL - That would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it?
Mr. JARMAN - Right.

Thank you for confirming that Junior Jarman,and Shorty Norman, walked across the first floor shipping department. They said they entered the back door on the first floor and walked to the west elevator....  Therefore they walked across the first floor......And Lee Oswald saw them. 
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 09:58:36 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #214 on: January 30, 2019, 04:25:50 PM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting
« Reply #215 on: January 30, 2019, 08:46:18 PM »
From Dallas Police Transcrips....

231 clear. 12:23.
606 out. (606 is the ambulance and it has arrived)
10-4, 606. 12:24. this is the dispatch acknowledging the ambulance arriving)
79 clear.
79 clear. 12:24.
65.
65.
Call 633.
Out to use phone. 10-4.
97 clear.
97 clear. 12:25. ...on line with 312.
606. (The ambulance calling dispatch)
606. (Dispatch acknowledging)
We're en route to Parkland with a signal 16
You're en route where, 606?

The ambulance arrived about late 12.23 and departed by 12.25

Mr. BELIN. Could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. All right. Now, at that first point, this would be--
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe I walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
You have marked a line on Exhibit No. 478 heading a little bit south on the west side of Houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, I didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. I didn't go up that far.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
And will you put the letter "H" there, if you would?
Mr. BRENNAN. Where I was standing watching the man?
Mr. BELIN. Where you were standing watching the man; yes.
Mr. BRENNAN. Right there.

Seems to me he says he observed them pick the man up while he was standing. Then he went to sit on the retaining wall. The ambulance did not arrive until about 12.24. (Police transcripts above).

Why do you continue to go with Brennan?s vague time estimate when we have actual timestamps to confirm more accurately. In any event Brennan was clearly focussed on the man with the seizure until he sat on the retaining wall. At that time he starts to observe the surrounding buildings.....TSBD etc. that is the salient point.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2019, 08:51:26 PM by Colin Crow »