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Author Topic: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?  (Read 24705 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2019, 05:31:18 PM »
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Why are you attempting to apply the old axiom...If you can't dazzle em with brilliance.. then try to baffle em with BS

Why not do a little honest research and determine the diameter of the dent??
I wasn't the one suggesting that there was a .45 calibre rifle in 1963.  As far as I can tell, there wasn't such a rifle.  More to the point, there is are good reasons why such a rifle would not be made.  A .45 calibre bullet would be 5 times heavier than a 6.5 mm bullet.  Try to imagine the recoil from that!  Even at subsonic speeds, it would have 2-3 times the kick of the MC firing 6.5 mm ammunition.  Stability is also a problem, as I mentioned earlier.  If you want to inflict damage, it is better to add speed rather than mass.  If you want stability, it is better to keep it long and narrow rather than short and fat.  Just physics.

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2019, 05:31:18 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2019, 05:50:41 PM »
I wasn't the one suggesting that there was a .45 calibre rifle in 1963.  As far as I can tell, there wasn't such a rifle.  More to the point, there is are good reasons why such a rifle would not be made.  A .45 calibre bullet would be 5 times heavier than a 6.5 mm bullet.  Try to imagine the recoil from that!  Even at subsonic speeds, it would have 2-3 times the kick of the MC firing 6.5 mm ammunition.  Stability is also a problem, as I mentioned earlier.  If you want to inflict damage, it is better to add speed rather than mass.  If you want stability, it is better to keep it long and narrow rather than short and fat.  Just physics.

Mr Mason, you're FOS....  There definitely were several 30 caliber carbines modified and converted and re-barreled to fire the 45 acp cartridge.  I probably still have the gun magazine that had the article about the creation of this weapon.... It was created by the CIA as an assassination weapon....  ( They probably had Fidel Castro in mind at the time)

These carbines were equipped with silencers and they fired the subsonic bullet at 850 fps.... They were short range weapons of about 50 yards.... just as the 45 auto hand cannon was designed for short range.....

But frankly my dear....I don't give a damn if you doubt me......

Offline Eddie Haymaker

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2019, 08:19:21 PM »

Governor Connolly ?the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle?



Probably the new scoped semi-automatic M16 or AR15 Rifle with suppressor or a similar weapon.(If you look at the diameter of the rear entry wound and the impact on the windshield frame it looks very small for a rifle round, 5.56 mm? perfect.)

fires 5-6 shots hits with
1 on target(JFK),2 Connolly,1 windshield frame,1 tague,1 total miss (1st shot)


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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2019, 08:19:21 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2019, 09:01:50 PM »
I agree that both are reacting at the same time to a shot. Whether the reactions began at the same time is not possible to tell because we cannot see if JFK began reacting while behind the Stemmons sign. He certainly appears very different when he emerges in z225 than he did in z193. The fact that both are reacting to a shot does not mean that they are reacting to being hit by it.  The evidence is pretty strong that there was only one shot to that point.  If that is the case, JBC is reacting to the first shot exactly as he said he did- by turning to his right to see the president because he had just heard a rifle shot and thought an assassination was occurring.


"Appears very different"? In what way? He's just not smiling and seems to be looking at the Umbrella Man protester. In Z193, Kennedy is engaging with well-wishers; he's pass them and getting a load of Umbrella Man while behind the sign.

Very good question. Connally said he reacted to the shot - the first shot - that he believed struck JFK because he heard it and knew it was a rifle shot. He feared an assassination was unfolding and turned to see the President.

The evidence is consistent that the first shot struck JFK so what you see after z230 is Connally's turn to see JFK which he said he did before he was hit in the back on the second shot.

Connally thought he was struck in the Z230s; Mrs. Connally the Z220s.



    "About the time I turned back where I was
     facing more or less straight ahead, the way
     the car was moving, I was hit."


    "Then there was a second shot, and it hit
     John [Connally], and as he recoiled to the
     right ... he turned away from me."
          -- Mrs. Connally

You have to allow several frames for the Governor to perceive the pain from a Z223 bullet strike and for Nellie to turn her attention away from the President to witness her husband's back to her.

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The vast majority of witnesses who recalled a pattern to the shots said the last two were closer together

Well, gee, if we're going with a majority of opinion (or someone's arbitrary "analysis" of what most said) then the limousine stopped on Elm and there's a huge gaping wound on the back of the President's head.

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so Connally was hit many frames later.  Greer said he turned around immediately after the second shot. His turns just before z280. That is just after Connally is hit.



Pretty hard to determine if Greer didn't turn his head earlier because the windshield hides his face. So can't claim the late-Z270 head turn was his first.

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The irony is that with this evidence (first shot hit JFK, first shot was after z190, last two shots were closer together)

But your first shot at Z195 doesn't work in 3-D (that is, good 3-D). The bullet that left Kennedy's throat can't possibly get pass Connally's left side to strike the left femur. Also Connally would have sensed the bullet strike, but per your theory, he's unaware for over four seconds that he's been struck. He just swats at a fly with his Stetson and, for the first time in the whole motorcade, twists his body so he's largely back-on to his wife.

There is a mere 2 1/4 seconds between the head shot and your Z271 shot. But almost five seconds between the head shot and the shot that struck at Z223.

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there is no need to explain a missed shot for which there is no evidence and there is no need for a second shooter.  Oswald could easily have fired all three.

Your theory has two missed shots. Both Z195 and Z271 shots show absolutely no bullet strikes or reactions in the Zapruder film.

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2019, 10:32:18 PM »

"Appears very different"? In what way? He's just not smiling and seems to be looking at the Umbrella Man protester. In Z193, Kennedy is engaging with well-wishers; he's pass them and getting a load of Umbrella Man while behind the sign.
So we both agree he looks very different. In z193 he is smiling and waving and in z225 he has a look of terror.  You say it is umbrella man, I say it's a bullet.  We'll have to disagree on that.

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Connally thought he was struck in the Z230s; Mrs. Connally the Z220s.

    "About the time I turned back where I was
     facing more or less straight ahead, the way
     the car was moving, I was hit."

    "Then there was a second shot, and it hit
     John [Connally], and as he recoiled to the
     right ... he turned away from me."
          -- Mrs. Connally
Quite true.  They were not questioned, however, on the details. For example, JBC was never asked "Where is it that you turn around to look over your right shoulder to see JFK?"  and Nellie was never asked "You said you did not look in the back seat after the second shot, but there you are looking in the back seat after z232 when you say you think the second shot occurred".
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You have to allow several frames for the Governor to perceive the pain from a Z223 bullet strike and for Nellie to turn her attention away from the President to witness her husband's back to her.
Why? JBC said he felt it immediately. He takes from z224 to z278 to fall back on his wife?

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Pretty hard to determine if Greer didn't turn his head earlier because the windshield hides his face. So can't claim the late-Z270 head turn was his first.
No.  Greer was describing the turn after the second shot as the turn before his last turn which was just before the head shot.  We can see both of those turns.  The first of those last two turns occurs from about z278-280.

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But your first shot at Z195 doesn't work in 3-D (that is, good 3-D). The bullet that left Kennedy's throat can't possibly get pass Connally's left side to strike the left femur.
Not according to the actual dimensions of the car, the seats, the jump seat back height, the bullet trajectory from the SN and the positions of the men as seen in the zfilm:


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Also Connally would have sensed the bullet strike, but per your theory, he's unaware for over four seconds that he's been struck. He just swats at a fly with his Stetson and, for the first time in the whole motorcade, twists his body so he's largely back-on to his wife.
Bullets do not necessarily hurt.  JBC said he never felt the thigh wound.   He said that he felt the impact but no pain from the back wound.  So why would he feel pain from the thigh wound? There was no loss of function of his leg, unlike from his chest wound. It is not uncommon in battle for soldiers to receive extremity wounds and not be aware of it until they or someone else notices blood.  Here is the experience of someone who was shot in the leg:

    "Felt Like My Leg was Heavy And Wet, But Getting Shot Didn?t Hurt secondhand_organs: ?I took a bullet in the *ss cheek that did some kind of parabolic arc and exited out of the back of my thigh. I didn?t feel the impact, but wondered why my leg felt heavy and wet (I was on a bicycle at the time). Getting shot itself didn?t hurt, but getting treated for it did. "

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There is a mere 2 1/4 seconds between the head shot and your Z271 shot. But almost five seconds between the head shot and the shot that struck at Z223.
Right. Give or take because we don't know exactly when in relation to the exposures the two shots occurred. So between shots captured in z272 and z313 there could be up to 54.7 ms x 42 + 30 ms = 2.33 seconds between them. That seems to fit "rapid succession" and puts the second perceptibly closer to the third than the first, unlike a second shot at z223.

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Your theory has two missed shots. Both Z195 and Z271 shots show absolutely no bullet strikes or reactions in the Zapruder film.
Not exactly "missed" shots - certainly not like missing the car, the road and everything else which is what the SBT requires.  It depends on what he was trying to hit. Both shots were very, very close to the target if JFK's head was the target. In fact, the shot at z271-72 was close enough to JFK's head that his hair flew forward, according to Hickey.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 04:18:24 AM by Andrew Mason »

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #100 on: January 04, 2019, 10:32:18 PM »


Offline Bill Chapman

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #101 on: January 04, 2019, 11:59:16 PM »


As Kennedy emerges from behind the sign, the involuntary reaction has yet to show itself. We can see his right hand and arm, that he had been lowering after waving to the crowd, still dropping. He did not begin reacting while behind the Stemmons sign.



The reactions of both Kennedy and Connally begin at the same time.  They are in sync.

Nah, JBC heard the shot and decided to put his bullet-proof Stetson on. The missed shot skipped past Aparicio at second, scoring Mantle from third.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 12:01:03 AM by Bill Chapman »

Offline Mike Orr

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2019, 05:16:11 PM »
Try selling your Magic Bullet Theory to your friends at your next " Party " ! It's a quick way to end a Party !

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #102 on: January 05, 2019, 05:16:11 PM »


Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #103 on: January 06, 2019, 02:45:07 AM »
You are still speculating that the lowering of his hand was not part of the reaction in itself. We don't know that.

How exactly would that work? His hand drops for 1.7 seconds as part of an involuntary reaction and then leaps upwards as part of the same involuntary reaction? I've never heard tell of such a thing before. 

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I would point out that the WC thought at z225 JFK was reacting to being shot (WR 98):

    "When President Kennedy again came fully into view in the Zapruder film at frame 225, he seemed to be reacting to his neck wound by raising his hands to his throat.  ...  According to Shaneyfelt the reaction was ?clearly apparent in 226 and barely apparent in 225.?

Right. The reaction can be seen beginning at Z225.

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The HSCA found that JFK was reacting well before z224 (HSCA Rep. 46):

    "By Zapruder frame 207, when President Kennedy is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view, he appears to be reacting to a severe external stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of frame 200 of the Zapruder film. The President's right hand freezes in the midst of a waving motion, followed by a rapid leftward movement of his head. (43) There is, therefore, photographic evidence of a shot striking the President by this time."

In the footnote on page 44 of its report, the HSCA noted:

    "In its report, the committee's photographic Connally reacted to his wounds evidence panel suggested that Governor interval might have been approximately one second after President Kennedy. This interval might have been even less, but a sign obstructing Zapruder's field of view made it impossible to study the Governor immediately after the President first appeared to be reacting to having been shot."

The HSCA Photographic Panel was no where near unanimous on that.

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Only if you are correct that JFK was not already reacting behind the sign. Many, many witnesses said he brought his hands down toward his neck/chest in response to the first shot. They could see JFK "behind" the sign.

Who cares what many witnesses thought that they saw? We can see for ourselves that JFK's hands are well below his neck at Z224 and still dropping.

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In any event, what is the significance of them both beginning to react at the same time? That does not mean that both were reacting to being hit by it.  JBC said he reacted to the first shot, which Nellie and about 20 others saw that JFK also reacted to.

Their reacting at the same time in the way that they did means that they were hit at the same time. You've already admitted that they were hit by the same bullet so why are you still fighting this? You made a big mistake embracing your pet theory so many years ago. It's a theory that does not stand up under scrutiny. You should have abandoned it years ago. Let this be a lesson to others.