JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Eddie Haymaker on December 26, 2018, 12:09:04 AM

Title: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on December 26, 2018, 12:09:04 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRH8uL2YKDAk7YZAyfFMJHV0eaxtsgxufp72f4W9gs0JRoaOUwY)

At least an inch higher than the clavicle (feel that on your neck)

Which means the rear bullet had to strike higher than that from behind

It has to hit JFK squarely in the lower neck - which is NOT EVEN CLOSE

To the actual wounds.Clearly shot in the upper back and not the neck (official

autopsy photos wiki page) The MB would be an OBVIOUS neck shot from behind.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7FjFmuwn3506wGR5gSzMteLv8gkgb-sc8gIS_aFipVA8T_-Gr)

This wound is obviously too low to support the MBT.

you see the unusual wound shape? Surgical tweezers/clamps have removed     

the bullet and left their telltale marks on the wound.

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1087fd7691721af0146484e3c5ad3be1)

ALL THE EVIDENCE STACKED UP HERE BY THE WR

PROVES 5-6 INCHES DOWN FROM THE COLLAR


The WR says the MB did not hit bone in JFK

So he apparently had no spinal column

Because the front "exit" wound is directly in the middle of the throat

and the bullet exited at high velocity

It therefore HAD to smash through the spinal column even If

people try to move the wound about (which they have since 1963)

which would have obviously killed Kennedy instantaneously

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiLh2DeprE3KaPrxPXYHzNc_O_MngiGtPgnsilqk3fh3nrcT3c)

This picture is my personal favourite - you see no spine


(http://i47.tinypic.com/15x8g46.jpg)

This simple picture totally destroys the Magic Bullet Myth

It is taken by an unassuming photographer at parkland minutes after arrival

Its a clear perfectly round symmetrical bullet impact and not a ricochet

The MB is a practical impossibility and is contrary to much of the governments   
 
own evidence



Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on December 26, 2018, 02:47:47 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRH8uL2YKDAk7YZAyfFMJHV0eaxtsgxufp72f4W9gs0JRoaOUwY)

At least an inch higher than the clavicle (feel that on your neck)

Which means the rear bullet had to strike higher than that from behind

It has to hit JFK squarely in the lower neck - which is NOT EVEN CLOSE

To the actual wounds.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/neckwound/bunch/bunch-king-photos.jpg)

Sure seems like a bullet entering below the jacket bunch at the nape would have to go downward to exit at the level of the tie-knot.

Quote
Clearly shot in the upper back and not the neck (official
autopsy photos wiki page) The MB would be an OBVIOUS neck shot from behind.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7FjFmuwn3506wGR5gSzMteLv8gkgb-sc8gIS_aFipVA8T_-Gr)

This wound is obviously too low to support the MBT.

Seems Kennedy had some "back" below his collars.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth184611/m1/1/med_res/)

Quote
you see the unusual wound shape? Surgical tweezers/clamps have removed     

the bullet and left their telltale marks on the wound.

Sure. Tweezers leave permanent marks on skin.

Quote
(https://userscontent2.emaze.com/images/46e2eec6-c739-4bcd-a214-c1b4efbd4542/fe22104d67feb69aee06f4450b42fb36.jpg)

That says 5-6 inches BELOW THE COLLAR

A WR diagram

That's a conspiracy kook cartoon. It has nothing to do with how the WC saw the SBT.

Quote
(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1087fd7691721af0146484e3c5ad3be1)

ALL THE EVIDENCE STACKED UP HERE BY THE WR

PROVES 5-6 INCHES DOWN FROM THE COLLAR


That's nice. Now show us in the films of the assassination where there's a shirt hanging flat on a hanger.

Quote

The WR says the MB did not hit bone in JFK

So he apparently had no spinal column

I see why it's best to leave the deduction to the experts.

Quote
Because the front "exit" wound is directly in the middle of the throat

and the bullet exited at high velocity

It therefore HAD to smash through the spinal column even If

people try to move the wound about (which they have since 1963)

which would have obviously killed Kennedy instantaneously

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiLh2DeprE3KaPrxPXYHzNc_O_MngiGtPgnsilqk3fh3nrcT3c)

This picture is my personal favourite - you see no spine


(http://i47.tinypic.com/15x8g46.jpg)

This simple picture totally destroys the Magic Bullet Myth

It is taken by an unassuming photographer at parkland minutes after arrival

Make that an evidence photo taken at the White House garage. So far, you're battin' a thousand.

Quote
Its a clear perfectly round symmetrical bullet impact and not a ricochet

Except it isn't.

Quote
The MB is a practical impossibility and is contrary to much of the governments   
 
own evidence

You mean how you've framed the evidence.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on December 26, 2018, 03:15:03 AM
Just answering "no it isn't" is not helpful

you ignore the strong evidence and cherry pick the rest

How?

How does the bullet miss the spinal column?

Why is that not evidence of a bullet strike? (does it matter what garage?)

OK the shirt is all "bunched up" what about the autopsy pic's?

Is that all you've got - a pic of his SUIT JACKET?

I did not include the suit jacket evidence

-----------------------------------------------------------

feel about an inch above your collar bone at the front

then move your other hand to the back of your neck an inch

above that

THATS WHERE THE BULLET HAS TO HIT

no where near your back

That is your neck Mr Organ - no doubt

TRY IT






Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on December 26, 2018, 02:45:41 PM
Just answering "no it isn't" is not helpful

you ignore the strong evidence and cherry pick the rest

How?

How does the bullet miss the spinal column?

Why is that not evidence of a bullet strike? (does it matter what garage?)

OK the shirt is all "bunched up" what about the autopsy pic's?

Is that all you've got - a pic of his SUIT JACKET?

I did not include the suit jacket evidence

-----------------------------------------------------------

feel about an inch above your collar bone at the front

then move your other hand to the back of your neck an inch

above that

THATS WHERE THE BULLET HAS TO HIT

no where near your back

That is your neck Mr Organ - no doubt

TRY IT
The evidence is absolutely clear that the bullet went through JFK entering his upper back and exiting throat beneath the left side of his neck tie. The question is: what did it strike afterward? 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on December 26, 2018, 06:35:41 PM
wrong

I don't go further because the bullet clearly does not travel further

that is what the evidence shows

feel about an inch above your collar bone at the front

then move your other hand to the back of your neck an inch

above that

THATS WHERE THE BULLET HAS TO HIT

no where near your back
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on December 27, 2018, 02:00:49 AM
wrong

I don't go further because the bullet clearly does not travel further

that is what the evidence shows

feel about an inch above your collar bone at the front

then move your other hand to the back of your neck an inch

above that

THATS WHERE THE BULLET HAS TO HIT

no where near your back
Why does the downward path of the bullet not affect the path through the body?  If it does, what is the downward angle you are using?  How do you factor in the position of JFK (ie. was he perfectly vertical or was he leaning? Which direction and how much?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on December 27, 2018, 02:22:22 AM
well the FBI officially state 21 degrees down angle

the path doesn't matter so much because we have the "exit" wound

as a guide.

It is directly in the middle front of the trachea

meaning If it were at high velocity the bullet MUST pass through

the spinal column and trachea, middle front.

no doubt

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRH8uL2YKDAk7YZAyfFMJHV0eaxtsgxufp72f4W9gs0JRoaOUwY)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on December 27, 2018, 03:32:29 AM
well the FBI officially state 21 degrees down angle

the path doesn't matter so much because we have the "exit" wound

as a guide.

It is directly in the middle front of the trachea

meaning If it were at high velocity the bullet MUST pass through

the spinal column and trachea, middle front.

no doubt

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRH8uL2YKDAk7YZAyfFMJHV0eaxtsgxufp72f4W9gs0JRoaOUwY)
What right-to-left angle are you using for the bullet path? It depends on the time of the first shot. If the first shot was at z195 or so, the angle was over 13 degrees. Would you think the bullet has to go through the spine if it was travelling right-to-left at a 13 degree angle and exited the throat, .5 cm left of JFK's midline?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on December 27, 2018, 06:24:31 AM
buddy

This case is a donkey

The bullet has to hit JFK well into his neck

and not his back

I have proven why on this thread

If you dont think so - prove otherwise

stop with the broken record routine
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 27, 2018, 03:18:05 PM
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRH8uL2YKDAk7YZAyfFMJHV0eaxtsgxufp72f4W9gs0JRoaOUwY)

At least an inch higher than the clavicle (feel that on your neck)

Which means the rear bullet had to strike higher than that from behind

It has to hit JFK squarely in the lower neck - which is NOT EVEN CLOSE

To the actual wounds.Clearly shot in the upper back and not the neck (official

autopsy photos wiki page) The MB would be an OBVIOUS neck shot from behind.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7FjFmuwn3506wGR5gSzMteLv8gkgb-sc8gIS_aFipVA8T_-Gr)

This wound is obviously too low to support the MBT.

you see the unusual wound shape? Surgical tweezers/clamps have removed     

the bullet and left their telltale marks on the wound.

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1087fd7691721af0146484e3c5ad3be1)

ALL THE EVIDENCE STACKED UP HERE BY THE WR

PROVES 5-6 INCHES DOWN FROM THE COLLAR


The WR says the MB did not hit bone in JFK

So he apparently had no spinal column

Because the front "exit" wound is directly in the middle of the throat

and the bullet exited at high velocity

It therefore HAD to smash through the spinal column even If

people try to move the wound about (which they have since 1963)

which would have obviously killed Kennedy instantaneously

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiLh2DeprE3KaPrxPXYHzNc_O_MngiGtPgnsilqk3fh3nrcT3c)

This picture is my personal favourite - you see no spine


(http://i47.tinypic.com/15x8g46.jpg)

This simple picture totally destroys the Magic Bullet Myth

It is taken by an unassuming photographer at parkland minutes after arrival

Its a clear perfectly round symmetrical bullet impact and not a ricochet

The MB is a practical impossibility and is contrary to much of the governments   
 
own evidence

(http://i47.tinypic.com/15x8g46.jpg)

This simple picture totally destroys the Magic Bullet Myth

It is taken by an unassuming photographer at parkland minutes after arrival

Its a clear perfectly round symmetrical bullet impact and not a ricochet


You're makin hay and are absolutely right on this point Mr Haymaker...

By knowing the dimensions of the rear view mirror bracket and scaling the photo, it's possible to find the dimension of the bullet that made the dent in the chrome molding....  I performed this exercise decades ago and found that the bullet was either a .44 or a .45 caliber bullet....  Since a .45 caliber ACP cartridge fires a bullet at subsonic velocity, and that big slow moving bullet has very poor penetrating ability , I suspect that the bullet that made the dent was fired from a .45 caliber weapon.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on December 27, 2018, 04:38:52 PM
buddy

This case is a donkey

The bullet has to hit JFK well into his neck

and not his back

I have proven why on this thread

If you dont think so - prove otherwise

stop with the broken record routine
Just as I expected: Your inability to answer the simple questions show that you have not actually worked out the trajectory. So why would you expect us to treat your objection to the path through JFK seriously?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on December 27, 2018, 04:50:12 PM
(http://i47.tinypic.com/15x8g46.jpg)

This simple picture totally destroys the Magic Bullet Myth

It is taken by an unassuming photographer at parkland minutes after arrival

Its a clear perfectly round symmetrical bullet impact and not a ricochet


By knowing the dimensions of the rear view mirror bracket and scaling the photo, it's possible to find the dimension of the bullet that made the dent in the chrome molding....  I performed this exercise decades ago and found that the bullet was either a .44 or a .45 caliber bullet....  Since a .45 caliber ACP cartridge fires a bullet at subsonic velocity, and that big slow moving bullet has very poor penetrating ability , I suspect that the bullet that made the dent was fired from a .45 caliber weapon.
You may have a point that the photograph could help disprove the SBT.  As far as I know, the FBI did not extract any metal from the windshield frame when gathering and weighing all the bullet fragments.  That was a significant fragment and some or all of it may have been embedded deep into the frame.  If the fragments exceed the mass of a 6.5 mm bullet, that would disprove the SBT by itself.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on December 27, 2018, 07:25:08 PM
well, I don't know about all that

but that bullet looks small

To me it looks like a 5.56 mm

The hole in JFK's shirt is also very small

it all fits
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on December 27, 2018, 09:12:06 PM
well, I don't know about all that

but that bullet looks small

To me it looks like a 5.56 mm

The hole in JFK's shirt is also very small

it all fits
The difference between 5.56 mm and 6.5 mm. is less than a millimetre!!  You can see that it is 5.56 and not 6.5 mm just by looking at a photo of a single bullet hole without measurement? 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on December 27, 2018, 09:58:20 PM
I would have thought I made it clear it was my opinion

It is a terribly small hole for a rifle

It could be 6.5 mm of course

------------------------------------------------------------

to be clear I don't completely rule out Oswald as a gunman

but there must have also been another man firing from behind

and of course one from the knoll

My real problem is simply the WR and that Oswald acted alone.

An impossibility IMO

So I guess I agree with the HSCA's final judgement

There was a conspiracy involving at least one other gunman

who was involved and how large a group it was - Is open to conjecture

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on December 29, 2018, 01:09:37 AM

c'mon nutters

prove this MB BS

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on December 31, 2018, 03:58:58 PM
c'mon nutters

prove this MB BS
As far as I can tell, Oswald fired all three shots and all three shots struck in the limo. The shot pattern was 1......2...3.  The SBT has no evidence to support it but, more to the point, the second shot SBT is disproved by the shot pattern because if the last two were close together (closer than 1 and 2) there is no possible way to have the second shot occur prior to z225 when JFK is obviously reacting to his throat wound.

So, as a "nutter" why would I want to prove the SBT or "Magic Bullet"?  It is a theory that lacks evidence and conflicts with large bodies of reliable mutually consistent evidence.  More to the point, it is not needed to explain the sequence of shots by Oswald using his MC rifle.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on December 31, 2018, 04:33:30 PM
You may have a point that the photograph could help disprove the SBT.  As far as I know, the FBI did not extract any metal from the windshield frame when gathering and weighing all the bullet fragments.  That was a significant fragment and some or all of it may have been embedded deep into the frame.  If the fragments exceed the mass of a 6.5 mm bullet, that would disprove the SBT by itself.

As far as I know, the FBI did not extract any metal from the windshield frame when gathering and weighing all the bullet fragments.

The damage to the chrome molding was a deep dent....The bullet did not penetrate through the molding.  Please explain how it would be possible to "extract any metal from the windshield frame"  when the molding covering the frame had not been penetrated???

If you're actually looking for facts....measure the size of the dent by using the sun visor clip as a scale.   I'm sure that you'll find that the dent was made by a .45 caliber bullet.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on December 31, 2018, 05:38:01 PM
As far as I know, the FBI did not extract any metal from the windshield frame when gathering and weighing all the bullet fragments.

The damage to the chrome molding was a deep dent....The bullet did not penetrate through the molding.  Please explain how it would be possible to "extract any metal from the windshield frame"  when the molding covering the frame had not been penetrated???

If you're actually looking for facts....measure the size of the dent by using the sun visor clip as a scale.   I'm sure that you'll find that the dent was made by a .45 caliber bullet.
The central hole does not appear to be very big.  The large dent could result from the smaller projectile impacting the metal frame and spreading the metal apart.  A .45 calibre bullet is 11 mm in diameter or about 7/16 of an inch - almost half an inch.   I have a feeling that a .45 bullet striking that frame would do much more damage than that.

Here's a question: if there was an elaborate conspiracy, why would the plan be to use a handgun - and then have such a poor shooter miss by so much? 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 01, 2019, 01:31:40 AM
the .45 slug is a red herring

as soon as you start on an indisputable point

they try and take this case in 1,000 directions

stick to your narrative no matter what they say

WHY doesn't that picture stop the MBT and the WR in its tracks?

WHY NOT?

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 01, 2019, 02:25:23 AM

You mean how you've framed the evidence.

In a nutshell.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 01, 2019, 02:58:45 AM

I didnt frame anything

evidence is evidence

It stands by itself

and that picture SHOULD dispel this ridiculous MBT forever

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 01, 2019, 03:20:12 AM
I didnt frame anything

evidence is evidence

It stands by itself

and that picture SHOULD dispel this ridiculous MBT forever

The evidence does stand by itself. The scenario that you presented is of your own creation. It has little to do with reality.

The magic bullet theory is ridiculous. It was created by conspiracy screwballs. I reject it entirely.

The Single Bullet Theory remains standing, Firm and unchallengeable.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 01, 2019, 04:23:44 AM
firm?

The sitting president disagreed with it (& you)

and 1 commissioner refused to sign off on it

you guys...

are holier than the pope!

lol

is that the very best you can do?

a declaration?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 01, 2019, 04:33:16 AM
firm?

The sitting president disagreed with it (& you)

and 1 commissioner refused to sign off on it

you guys...

are holier than the pope!

lol

is that the very best you can do?

It makes no difference to me whether a sitting President disagreed with it or not. If he disagreed with it then either he was ignorant of the facts surrounding it or he was an idiot. There are other possible reasons I suppose (Hi Andrew) but those are the usual ones.

1 commissioner did NOT refuse to sign off on it. All seven Commissioners signed off on it.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 01, 2019, 04:39:45 AM
It makes no difference to me whether a sitting President disagreed with it or not. If he disagreed with it then either he was ignorant of the facts surrounding it or he was an idiot.

wow
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 01, 2019, 05:20:58 PM
The Single Bullet Theory remains standing, Firm and unchallengeable.
A version of the SBT remains standing. It is firm only if you ignore the evidence against it. And it is certainly challengeable. 

The current version is not the version that the WC counsel were pushing, as the many references in the evidence to "first shot" being the one that struck JFK attest. John McCloy believed that JBC was struck by the first shot and did not feel it right away.  It was not until many years later that the second shot SBT gained acceptance. So much for a "firm" theory. 

The evidence against the second shot SBT is abundant:  over 20 witnesses said that JFK reacted to the first shot - not by smiling and waving for 3 seconds which is what the SBT requires.  No one said he continued to smile and wave after the first shot.  There is abundant evidence (from motorcade witnesses, photographers, witnesses along Elm) that the first shot was between z186-202.  There is evidence that JFK was visible to Oswald in the SN by z195 and likely visible all the time he was passing under the oak tree. There is also abundant evidence that the shot pattern was 1.......2...3 so there could only have been one shot by z225 when the President is seen to be reacting. That in itself contradicts the second shot SBT.

As far as being challengeable, I am not sure what you mean.  I challenge it.  That does not mean that Oswald did not fire all three shots. He most certainly did.

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 01, 2019, 07:00:49 PM
A version of the SBT remains standing. It is firm only if you ignore the evidence against it. And it is certainly challengeable. 

The current version is not the version that the WC counsel were pushing, as the many references in the evidence to "first shot" being the one that struck JFK attest. John McCloy believed that JBC was struck by the first shot and did not feel it right away.  It was not until many years later that the second shot SBT gained acceptance. So much for a "firm" theory. 

The evidence against the second shot SBT is abundant:  over 20 witnesses said that JFK reacted to the first shot - not by smiling and waving for 3 seconds

Few among the "20 witnesses" in your paper were actually in a position to see the President smiling. Of those, some (ie: the Chisms, Jean Newman) were "two shot" witnesses who merely recalled the President "slumping" on the shot which occurred before the head shot. That means their "first shot" was the second in most three-shot scenarios.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/348hfle.gif)

Mary Woodward saw the President not react (other than look around) to the first shot and "slump" on the second shot, followed by the head shot.

Quote
which is what the SBT requires. 

It's "required" only to meet your arbitrary claim.

Quote
No one said he continued to smile and wave after the first shot. 

But your list of 20 witnesses have few who were in a position to see the President wave clearly and even more who were not positioned to see his face.

Quote
There is abundant evidence (from motorcade witnesses, photographers, witnesses along Elm) that the first shot was between z186-202.  There is evidence that JFK was visible to Oswald in the SN by z195 and likely visible all the time he was passing under the oak tree.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/aahtnm.jpg)

No evidence for the car clearing the oak tree by Z195 that you produced. Better-resolution film shows the branches were a considerable hindrance.

Quote
There is also abundant evidence that the shot pattern was 1.......2...3

Witnesses were more attentive to the shot span--if they were attentive to such a thing at all--only after hearing a second shot. They had no reason to expect a second loud report after hearing the first as many dismissed the first as a "backfire" or "firecracker". The first shot blended more readily into the normal behavior observed in the crowd and the motorcade. Only with the second shot came a wave of awareness and urgency.

Quote
so there could only have been one shot by z225 when the President is seen to be reacting. That in itself contradicts the second shot SBT.
As far as being challengeable, I am not sure what you mean.  I challenge it.  That does not mean that Oswald did not fire all three shots. He most certainly did.

Andrew Mason is a defense attorney and apparently will commit any lie, misrepresentation or distortion to "defend" his "client" (pet theory).
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 01, 2019, 07:21:05 PM
Few among the "20 witnesses" in your paper were actually in a position to see the President smiling. Of those, some (ie: the Chisms, Jean Newman) were "two shot" witnesses who merely recalled the President "slumping" on the shot which occurred before the head shot. That means their "first shot" was the second in most three-shot scenarios.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/348hfle.gif)

Mary Woodward saw the President not react (other than look around) to the first shot and "slump" on the second shot, followed by the head shot.

It's "required" only to meet your arbitrary claim.

But your list of 20 witnesses have few who were in a position to see the President wave clearly and even more who were not positioned to see his face.

(http://i65.tinypic.com/aahtnm.jpg)

No evidence for the car clearing the oak tree by Z195 that you produced. Better-resolution film shows the branches were a considerable hindrance.

Witnesses were more attentive to the shot span--if they were attentive to such a thing at all--only after hearing a second shot. They had no reason to expect a second loud report after hearing the first as many dismissed the first as a "backfire" or "firecracker". The first shot blended more readily into the normal behavior observed in the crowd and the motorcade. Only with the second shot came a wave of awareness and urgency.

Andrew Mason is a defense attorney and apparently will commit any lie, misrepresentation or distortion to "defend" his "client" (pet theory).

'Witnesses were more attentive to the shot span--if they were attentive to such a thing at all--only after hearing a second shot. They had no reason to expect a second loud report after hearing the first as many dismissed the first as a "backfire" or "firecracker". The first shot blended more readily into the normal behavior observed in the crowd and the motorcade. Only with the second shot came a wave of awareness and urgency.'

 Thumb1:
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 01, 2019, 08:44:12 PM

Explain this obvious bullet strike please

(http://i47.tinypic.com/15x8g46.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 01, 2019, 08:48:09 PM

The evidence against the second shot SBT is abundant:  over 20 witnesses said that JFK reacted to the first shot - not by smiling and waving for 3 seconds which is what the SBT requires. 

My recollection tells me that I've taken apart your "over 20 witnesses said that JFK reacted to the first shot" claim before. More than once.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 01, 2019, 08:49:43 PM
Explain this obvious bullet strike please

(http://i47.tinypic.com/15x8g46.jpg)

A fragment from the head shot.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 01, 2019, 08:51:38 PM
Explain this obvious bullet strike please

(http://i47.tinypic.com/15x8g46.jpg)

Could be a metal fragment from the head shot.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/tague/tague-hit-z312-projection.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 01, 2019, 09:08:58 PM

Thanks Jerry

But I must disagree

Its a perfectly round symmetrical impact

anyone who uses a rifle can tell right away what that is

yes I believe a ricochet did hit the windshield from the headshot

but not that strike

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 01, 2019, 09:25:02 PM
Thanks Jerry

But I must disagree

Its a perfectly round symmetrical impact

anyone who uses a rifle can tell right away what that is

yes I believe a ricochet did hit the windshield from the headshot

but not that strike

A direct strike by a intact bullet traveling at near muzzle velocity would have done much more damage to that chrome piece. Nobody familiar with rifles would think that it was a direct strike from a bullet.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 01, 2019, 10:23:35 PM
My recollection tells me that I've taken apart your "over 20 witnesses said that JFK reacted to the first shot" claim before. More than once.
Yes. You have rationalized why some of them all made the same mistake of missing the first horrible ear shattering noise and thinking the second shot was the first shot. The problem is that your rationalizations of why they were wrong does not constitute evidence.  What you need are witnesses who said that they saw JFK not react to the first shot and continue to smile and wave for 3 seconds afterward.   But there are none.  So there is only evidence that JFK reacted to the first shot.  The WC certainly seemed to accept that evidence.

You could ask yourself why everyone who had been looking at the president suddenly stopped looking after the first horrible ear-shattering noise and then immediately looked at him at the time of the second shot which they did hear, but then forgot that they had heard a similar sound 3 seconds earlier. 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 01, 2019, 11:05:12 PM
Few among the "20 witnesses" in your paper were actually in a position to see the President smiling. Of those, some (ie: the Chisms, Jean Newman) were "two shot" witnesses who merely recalled the President "slumping" on the shot which occurred before the head shot. That means their "first shot" was the second in most three-shot scenarios.
That is not a very good argument, Jerry.  There were dozens of witnesses along the north side of Elm who could see JFK from z160 to z225.  Many if not all were looking at the President or Jackie.  None of them said that either continued to smile or wave after that first horrible ear-shattering noise.

According to your rationalization of why they were wrong, they must have stopped looking at the President after the first shot and then looked at him again only at or after the second. The problem is that we can see in the zfilm that they are all continuing to look at JFK while he is smiling and waving.  Why did not a single one of them report that?  When you then look at the evidence as to when the first shot occurred, it becomes obvious: the first shot had not yet occurred as JFK was smiling and waving.
Quote

Mary Woodward saw the President not react (other than look around) to the first shot and "slump" on the second shot, followed by the head shot.
She also heard the last two shots closer together - so close that the reverberation from the second had not died out before the third shot sounded.  That, in itself, says that JFK must have been hit on the first shot.  Admittedly, she said her recollection of the events after the first shot were a little "hazy". But there are dozens of others who reported the same thing.

Quote
It's "required" only to meet your arbitrary claim.
It would be arbitrary if not supported by evidence but merely conjecture.  Your rationalizations for why the witnesses were all wrong is just that: conjecture.  It is certainly not evidence.

Quote
But your list of 20 witnesses have few who were in a position to see the President wave clearly and even more who were not positioned to see his face.
So what? See above: there were many others who were in a position to see his face - everyone on the north side of Elm St.  All or nearly all were looking at the President.

Quote
No evidence for the car clearing the oak tree by Z195 that you produced. Better-resolution film shows the branches were a considerable hindrance.
Your zframes are wrong.  The president was opposite the lamppost at z190.  Why not show us how you determined the corresponding zframe for this film. Also - tell us where you found the high resolution frames of the tree. I would like a better copy myself.

Quote
Witnesses were more attentive to the shot span--if they were attentive to such a thing at all--only after hearing a second shot. They had no reason to expect a second loud report after hearing the first as many dismissed the first as a "backfire" or "firecracker". The first shot blended more readily into the normal behavior observed in the crowd and the motorcade. Only with the second shot came a wave of awareness and urgency.
Your rationalization of why you think they were wrong is not evidence.  You need evidence that the witnesses who reported the last two shots closer together were wrong. All the evidence I have found shows that they were right: that the second shot was at z271-272.

Quote
Andrew Mason is a defense attorney and apparently will commit any lie, misrepresentation or distortion to "defend" his "client" (pet theory).
Why do you think that my "theory" that the witnesses were not hallucinating or collectively mistaken in the same way is any crazier than your "theory" that they were?  And why is it a "lie"?  You should realize, Jerry, that resort to ad hominems is a sign that you are in the last stage of a losing argument.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 02, 2019, 12:44:11 AM
That is not a very good argument, Jerry.  There were dozens of witnesses along the north side of Elm who could see JFK from z160 to z225.  Many if not all were looking at the President or Jackie.  None of them said that either continued to smile or wave after that first horrible ear-shattering noise.

Well, here are some witnesses on the north Elm sidewalk near the Stemmons sign.

    "The motorcade had just passed me when I heard something that
     I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just
     passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report,
     it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort
     of ducked his head down, and I thought at the time that it probably
     scared him too, just like it did me, because he flinched like he jumped.
     I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest."
          -- Jean Newman

Newman is a two-shot witness. She's described the jump-and-duck shot occurring when "the motorcade had just passed" and before the head shot. Her Nov 24th affidavit states: "A car carrying the President and another person had just passed her when she heard a report and saw the President jump. raising his hands to his chest area."

The motorcade (ie: limousine) was still in front of Newman at Z195. Much of the front of the car was pass her position by Z223.

In a letter written Nov. 22, 1963, June Dishong wrote: "here come the president and his wife…His arm in the air waving…He drops his arm as they go by, possibly 20 feet. Suddenly--a sound.  Gun shots? So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd. The president bent forward into his wife’s lap as his arm slipped off the side of the car."

The President drops his right arm as he goes behind the sign, which is after your Z195 shot. A Z150s first shot would be lost in memory ("So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd"). A Z195 shot would have occurred before he lowered his arm and was so near to Dishing, I doubt it would be lost to "the clamor of the crowd". Dishong recalls him reacting after he lowered his arm and when he was near to her. This is more supportive of a shot heard at Z223 than Z195.

Karen Westbrook said the first shot occurred as the President waved towards them ("She was leaning over the President and pulling her hair out of her eyes as they were waving to us. And that is the image that I remember when the first shot was fired..."). We have to assume it was only the President waving and that Westbrook misinterpreted Jackie doing something with her hair; that's what the Zapruder film suggests as the car approached Westbrook).

The President is turned her way and about to wave by Z160 (roughly a quarter-second after a late-Z150s shot). By Z195, Westbrook can't see Mrs. Kennedy and the President isn't looking her way.

"
After the first shot was fired I saw the President's hands gradually come up".

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z162.jpg)[(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z193.jpg)

Between Z162 and Z193, the President's right hand gradually raises up fairly high ("I thought he was going to hold up his hands and say 'Ah, you got me.'")
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 02, 2019, 01:22:50 AM
Hey thanks Jerry

I would just like to say people like Mr Organ and Mr Brown

though we may vigorously disagree they are gentleman

who debate the topics and do not attack people unduly

they are 2 of the elder statesmen on this site

and they act like it

Thankyou - Respect

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 02, 2019, 01:55:29 AM
The magic bullet theory is ridiculous. It was created by conspiracy screwballs. I reject it entirely.
 The Single Bullet Theory remains standing, Firm and unchallengeable.
And the difference is....?  Either way we are still calling it a THEORY. And it is the stupidest theory I have ever heard of.  BTW there is no such word as 'unchallengeable'. You might look up the word-----
Unproven=doubtful, uncertain..suspicious..problematic..dubious..debatable..controversial..ambiguous       
   
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 02, 2019, 01:56:15 AM
A direct strike by a intact bullet traveling at near muzzle velocity would have done much more damage to that chrome piece. Nobody familiar with rifles would think that it was a direct strike from a bullet.

near muzzle velocity?
like point blank?
Do you have a clue what you are talking about?
So what was that strike then?
perhaps a bumblebee on amphetamines?

It could happen!

hey sorry bud no offence but

unchallengeable
/ʌnˈtʃalɪn(d)ʒəb(ə)l/Submit
adjective
not able to be disputed, opposed, or defeated.
"the unchallengeable truth of these basic facts"

its a word

Scrabble anyone?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 02, 2019, 03:32:37 AM
There is also such a word as umpteenth and that's how many magic bullet threads that have been posted on this forum in the past year. Why start another one? It has always managed to be challenged. 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 02, 2019, 04:33:43 AM
And the difference is....? 

The difference is that the Magic bullet Theory has the bullet zig zagging in mid air, stopping in midair, and moving up and down between the sniper's nest and the entry point on Connally's back. The Single Bullet Theory has none of that. It has the bullet traveling in a straight line trajectory from the sniper's nest, through Kennedy's neck, and then to the entry point on Connally's back.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 02, 2019, 04:36:10 AM

So what was that strike then?

What part of  "A fragment from the head shot" don't you understand?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 02, 2019, 05:00:26 AM
The Single Bullet Theory...
But it is still just a theory...a could have been. There could have been other shots from other shooters...also a theory. Neither theory was really explored much it seems. CE 399 was worshiped as the one true explanation of everything and so the story ends.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 02, 2019, 05:07:32 AM
But it is still just a theory...a could have been. There could have been other shots from other shooters...also a theory. Neither theory was really explored much it seems. CE 399 was worshiped as the one true explanation of everything and so the story ends.

The "other shots from other shooters" theory has no support. There's no evidence for it and it doesn't stand up at all under any scrutiny. CE399 wasn't worshiped. It just was. It exists. It is evidence that fits very well with the Single Bullet Theory.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jack Trojan on January 02, 2019, 09:00:36 AM
The "other shots from other shooters" theory has no support. There's no evidence for it and it doesn't stand up at all under any scrutiny. CE399 wasn't worshiped. It just was. It exists. It is evidence that fits very well with the Single Bullet Theory.

How come there was no DNA on the MB?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 02, 2019, 05:32:24 PM
Well, here are some witnesses on the north Elm sidewalk near the Stemmons sign.

    "The motorcade had just passed me when I heard something that
     I thought was a firecracker at first, and the President had just
     passed me, because after he had just passed, there was a loud report,
     it just scared me, and I noticed that the President jumped, he sort
     of ducked his head down, and I thought at the time that it probably
     scared him too, just like it did me, because he flinched like he jumped.
     I saw him put his elbows like this, with his hands on his chest."
          -- Jean Newman

Newman is a two-shot witness. She's described the jump-and-duck shot occurring when "the motorcade had just passed" and before the head shot. Her Nov 24th affidavit states: "A car carrying the President and another person had just passed her when she heard a report and saw the President jump. raising his hands to his chest area."
She was a two shot witness in the sense that she could recall only two shots for sure.  She did say to the FBI that she could not be sure that there were not additional shots.

In any event, she is still a "JFK reacted to the first shot" witness.  Your speculation that the first shot did not register with her is not evidence. Your premise that someone can hear an ear-shattering noise and then another a few seconds later and forget that they heard the first one is, on its face, a bit absurd.  You would need some empirical evidence that this can and does occur often in humans. 

Quote
The motorcade (ie: limousine) was still in front of Newman at Z195. Much of the front of the car was pass her position by Z223.
As far as I can determine, Jean Newman was the woman to the left of the space and to the right of the man with the black hat (Ernie Brandt) in between the lamppost and the Thornton sign. She was opposite the President at about z197.  Newman said that the first shot occurred as the motorcade had just passed her.  That puts the first shot in the same place that dozens of others put it.  In fact, not a single witness puts the shot anywhere near z160 where you put it and others definitively put it much later (for example: Hughes stopped filming about z187 and said he stopped before it; Betzner said it was after his z186 photo; motorcade witnesses said the VP car had just finished its turn and the VP security car was almost finished its turn - both are still turning at z191).
Quote
In a letter written Nov. 22, 1963, June Dishong wrote: "here come the president and his wife…His arm in the air waving…He drops his arm as they go by, possibly 20 feet. Suddenly--a sound.  Gun shots? So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd. The president bent forward into his wife’s lap as his arm slipped off the side of the car."

The President drops his right arm as he goes behind the sign, which is after your Z195 shot.
And where do you see that occur before z206?  His arm appears to have dropped slightly by z206 from its highest position at z193.

Quote
A Z150s first shot would be lost in memory ("So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd").
A "horrible ear-shattering noise" was forgotten within 3 seconds? What on earth are you basing that on? This is not only speculation, it is speculation that is contrary to normal human experience.  People observe/hear things and just because they don't understand immediately what caused it doesn't mean it vanishes from their consciousness.

Quote
A Z195 shot would have occurred before he lowered his arm and was so near to Dishing, I doubt it would be lost to "the clamor of the crowd". Dishong recalls him reacting after he lowered his arm and when he was near to her. This is more supportive of a shot heard at Z223 than Z195.
June Dishong was about 4-5 feet from Jean Newman - a one-person space plus one person between them, which puts the President directly opposite her at about z200.

She did not give a statement to the FBI but she did write out a vivid description of the events - undated but apparently written shortly after the events.  It came to light only after her death in 1998.  You have given part of what she said but here is a bit more to provide context:

Quote from: June Dishong handwritten statement
A pink suit. Pill box hat to match. Black hair just as we had seen them so many times on T.V. - it was beautiful.

He drops his arm as they go by - possibly 20 feet. Suddenly - a sound. Gun shots? So hard to tell above the clamor of the crowd.

The President bent forward into his wife’s lap as his arm slipped off the side of the car. Jackey circled him with her arm. Another shot. Panic among the people. Woman with children. Parents pushing them to the ground. No one knows where the shots are coming from.

(page 7)

A cry. The President has been shot.

A third shot. People scatter.
The source is from a post by Don Roberdeau (http://LINK DELETED: Links To websites which contain materials or links to materials which are unsuitable for viewing by minors is forbidden/topic/1070-june-dishongs-attack-observations-released/) who is pretty reliable.

Quote
Karen Westbrook said the first shot occurred as the President waved towards them ("She was leaning over the President and pulling her hair out of her eyes as they were waving to us. And that is the image that I remember when the first shot was fired..."). We have to assume it was only the President waving and that Westbrook misinterpreted Jackie doing something with her hair; that's what the Zapruder film suggests as the car approached Westbrook).

The President is turned her way and about to wave by Z160 (roughly a quarter-second after a late-Z150s shot). By Z195, Westbrook can't see Mrs. Kennedy and the President isn't looking her way.

"
After the first shot was fired I saw the President's hands gradually come up".


Between Z162 and Z193, the President's right hand gradually raises up fairly high ("I thought he was going to hold up his hands and say 'Ah, you got me.'")
?? That's your take?  He was smiling and waving - hardly looking like he had been shot!! Westbrook was to the immediate left of June Dishong so she was opposite JFK around z198-200.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 02, 2019, 06:23:51 PM
  CE399 wasn't worshiped. It just was. It exists. It is evidence that fits very well with the Single Bullet Theory.
It just was. It exists. ---- So does BS:
"It is evidence that fits"- [Like 20 lbs of crap in a 5 lb sack]
Real evidence..testimony of a credible witness. Beginning at a line from the previous page....
Quote
we just made the turn when I heard what I thought was a [rifle] shot..I turned to my right
the rest here...  https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh4/html/WC_Vol4_0071a.htm
It destroys the SBT. Resistance is futile
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 02, 2019, 06:30:41 PM
It just was. It exists. ---- So does BS:
"It is evidence that fits"- [Like 20 lbs of crap in a 5 lb sack]
Real evidence..testimony of a credible witness. Beginning at a line from the previous page....the rest here...  https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh4/html/WC_Vol4_0071a.htm
It destroys the SBT. Resistance is futile

I'm sorry, what? You're going to have to explain to me how Connally's WC testimony destroys the SBT. Because I don't see it. In fact, I see just the opposite.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 02, 2019, 07:49:30 PM
The central hole does not appear to be very big.  The large dent could result from the smaller projectile impacting the metal frame and spreading the metal apart.  A .45 calibre bullet is 11 mm in diameter or about 7/16 of an inch - almost half an inch.   I have a feeling that a .45 bullet striking that frame would do much more damage than that.

Here's a question: if there was an elaborate conspiracy, why would the plan be to use a handgun - and then have such a poor shooter miss by so much?

I have a feeling that a .45 bullet striking that frame would do much more damage than that.

Mr Mason...You are ill prepared to evaluate and dis cuss the dent in the chrome molding....

A 45 ACP cartridge was designed to STOP a foe or enemy...  It was NOT designed to penetrate .....the heavy ( 230 grains) soft lead bullet  traveling at subsonic velocity of 850 fps has a walloping 400 ft pounds of energy.

The cartridge was not designed to penetrate Thus it merely dented the steel molding .....

PS.... It was NOT fired from a handgun....

Nobody said anything about a hand gun.... 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 02, 2019, 09:00:59 PM
I have a feeling that a .45 bullet striking that frame would do much more damage than that.

Mr Mason...You are ill prepared to evaluate and dis cuss the dent in the chrome molding....

A 45 ACP cartridge was designed to STOP a foe or enemy...  It was NOT designed to penetrate .....the heavy ( 230 grains) soft lead bullet  traveling at subsonic velocity of 850 fps has a walloping 400 ft pounds of energy.

The cartridge was not designed to penetrate Thus it merely dented the steel molding .....

PS.... It was NOT fired from a handgun....

Nobody said anything about a hand gun....
Can you provide us with the make and model of a rifle that could fire .45 calibre bullets and was made in or prior to 1963?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 02, 2019, 09:08:22 PM
I'm sorry, what? You're going to have to explain to me how Connally's WC testimony destroys the SBT. Because I don't see it. In fact, I see just the opposite.
Connally's WC testimony conflicts with a first-shot-SBT.  Each of three independent bodies of witness evidence (1. that JFK reacted to the first shot, 2. that the first shot was after z190, and 3. that the last two shots were closer together) conflict with anything other than a first-shot-SBT.  So, in that sense, Connally's WC testimony, if correct, would rule out the SBT.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 02, 2019, 11:03:56 PM
Can you provide us with the make and model of a rifle that could fire .45 calibre bullets and was made in or prior to 1963?

I'm glad you asked....The CIA had constructed shoulder fired assassination rifles which were equipped with silencers.
They used the 30 caliber carbine and re-barreled it to fire the 45 acp cartridge Thus they had a powerful short rang weapon that made no noise when fired.   ( Those who fired the silenced carbine said that the only sound audible was the click of the bolt as it operated.   There was a good write up on this carbine in a gun magazine many years ago....
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 02, 2019, 11:35:48 PM
There is also such a word as umpteenth and that's how many magic bullet threads that have been posted on this forum in the past year. Why start another one? It has always managed to be challenged.

Why post on a thread?

just to complain about the thread you are posting on?

This never fails to amaze me

 ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 03, 2019, 01:01:19 AM
I'm glad you asked....The CIA had constructed shoulder fired assassination rifles which were equipped with silencers.
They used the 30 caliber carbine and re-barreled it to fire the 45 acp cartridge Thus they had a powerful short rang weapon that made no noise when fired.   ( Those who fired the silenced carbine said that the only sound audible was the click of the bolt as it operated.   There was a good write up on this carbine in a gun magazine many years ago....
Anyone can make stuff like that up. What is your source for the existence of such a rifle? And where can we find one?


.45 calibre is awfully big for a rifle - almost 2x the diameter of the 6.5 mm - 4x the cross-sectional area.  Stability would be a huge problem unless the bullet length increases substantially. But that increases bullet mass and therefore the amount of energy required, so it needs proportionately more powder.  But that is not all. Air resistance increases a the square of the diameter too, which increases the stability forces required. So spin rate has to be even higher to maintain accuracy. But to get a high spin rate it has to traverse the barrel faster.  If you shorten the barrel you have to increase the speed even more.  So I would be very surprised if anyone made such a rifle because it would have so many problems with accuracy.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 03, 2019, 01:42:06 AM
Connally's WC testimony conflicts with a first-shot-SBT. 

I agree. His testimony supports a second shot SBT.  Thumb1:
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 03, 2019, 01:44:37 AM

"the first shot didn't hit me"

"the second shot DID hit me"

It's clear as day
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 03, 2019, 01:47:05 AM
"the first shot didn't hit me"

"the second shot DID hit me"

It's clear as day

Absolutely!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 03, 2019, 03:15:02 AM
I agree. His testimony supports a second shot SBT.  Thumb1:
Not exactly. It does not destroy a second shot SBT but it doesn't exactly support it. He said that when he turned around to see if JFK was ok he was unable to see him. That suggests that JFK  was not where he had been on previous occasions when JBC had turned around to speak with JFK.  It is difficult to understand why he could not have turned around and seen JFK before z193 because JFK is quite far to the right with his right elbow on the top of the right side of the car. JBC had made that turn easily to chat with the President during the trip through Dallas. More to the point, there is no attempt to even look at JFK prior to about z250.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 03, 2019, 03:54:26 AM
She was a two shot witness in the sense that she could recall only two shots for sure.  She did say to the FBI that she could not be sure that there were not additional shots.

In any event, she is still a "JFK reacted to the first shot" witness. 

But her "first shot" is still the one before the fatal head shot. It's actually the second shot in most LN three-shot scenarios. She's misplaced the first of the three shots (the one many term the "backfire" or "firecracker") because nothing unusual happened (like a person reacting as if they had been shot) and the crowd behaved as they did before the first shot.

Quote
Your speculation that the first shot did not register with her is not evidence. Your premise that someone can hear an ear-shattering noise and then another a few seconds later and forget that they heard the first one is, on its face, a bit absurd.  You would need some empirical evidence that this can and does occur often in humans.

Meanwhile, your theory requires that "two shot" witnesses fail to register your Z271 second shot. This is after the crowd had (per your theory) been alerted to the President reacting on your Z195 first shot, so they should therefore be immediately concerned about any subsequent shots or happenings in the car.

Quote
As far as I can determine, Jean Newman was the woman to the left of the space and to the right of the man with the black hat (Ernie Brandt) in between the lamppost and the Thornton sign. She was opposite the President at about z197.  Newman said that the first shot occurred as the motorcade had just passed her.  That puts the first shot in the same place that dozens of others put it.

Roberdeau locates her between Templin and Burney. In any event, she supposedly is in that small group. She could still see the front of the limousine by Z200.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/2niy04x.jpg)

Jean Newman is a two-shot witness. The jump-and-duck shot occurred when "the motorcade had just passed" and before the head shot. Her Nov 24th affidavit states: "A car carrying the President and another person had just passed her when she heard a report and saw the President jump, raising his hands to his chest area." The SBT Z223 shot fits with what Jean Newman saw.

Quote
In fact, not a single witness puts the shot anywhere near z160 where you put it and others definitively put it much later (for example: Hughes stopped filming about z187 and said he stopped before it;

The Connallys and Mrs. Kennedy said they turned their heads to their right upon hearing the first shot. The Connallys begin doing so in the Z160s and Jackie at Z172.

Hughes says he stopped filming about five seconds before the shots were heard; but Z185 is about 1/2 second before your theory's first shot at Z195. Seems unlikely Hughes would characterize 1/2 seconds as five seconds.

What if Hughes (like other witnesses) wasn't that alarmed by a late-Z150 missed shot (and so didn't include its moment in time in his recollections)? A second shot at ca.Z223 is over two seconds from when Hughes stopped filming.

Quote
Betzner said it was after his z186 photo;

Betzner said he was looking down to wind his camera when he heard the first of two shots he later recalled, the latter one being the head shot. So the winding-the-camera shot he heard could be the shot heard before the head shot. In a three-shot scenario, Betzner has lost track of one of those shots.

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ih3twy.jpg)

As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in Z207, he is still lowering his camera and is not looking down. Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter, it is an argument that the shot he heard while winding the camera was the proposed SBT shot at Z223.

Quote
motorcade witnesses said the VP car had just finished its turn and the VP security car was almost finished its turn - both are still turning at z191).

At Z160, the VP car is about 70° turned off of Houston Street. I would imagine they would be looking down Elm and not dead straight ahead through the windshield.

Quote
And where do you see that occur before z206?  His arm appears to have dropped slightly by z206 from its highest position at z193.

Include the amount it dropped while he was behind the sign. This is very near to Dishong and something that impressed her. She said a loud noise occurred when Kennedy was very near to her and after he had dropped his arm.

Quote
A "horrible ear-shattering noise" was forgotten within 3 seconds? What on earth are you basing that on? This is not only speculation, it is speculation that is contrary to normal human experience.  People observe/hear things and just because they don't understand immediately what caused it doesn't mean it vanishes from their consciousness.

It's better to believe "two shot" witnesses would lose track of your second shot at Z271? After how alert they are and concerned having heard and supposedly witnessed a bullet strike on your theory's first shot at Z195?

Quote
June Dishong was about 4-5 feet from Jean Newman - a one-person space plus one person between them, which puts the President directly opposite her at about z200.

She sees even more than Newman of the front of the car at Z200.

Quote
She did not give a statement to the FBI but she did write out a vivid description of the events - undated but apparently written shortly after the events.  It came to light only after her death in 1998.  You have given part of what she said but here is a bit more to provide context:
The source is from a post by Don Roberdeau (http://LINK DELETED: Links To websites which contain materials or links to materials which are unsuitable for viewing by minors is forbidden/topic/1070-june-dishongs-attack-observations-released/) who is pretty reliable.

When she says "another shot", it can't mean the second shot because no one threw themselves to the ground until the head shot.

Quote

?? That's your take?  He was smiling and waving - hardly looking like he had been shot!! Westbrook was to the immediate left of June Dishong so she was opposite JFK around z198-200.
She was oblique to JFK, as was Dishong and Jean Newman.

"After the first shot was fired I saw the President's hands gradually come up".

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z162.jpg)(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z133-z199/z193.jpg)

Between Z162 and Z193, the President's right hand gradually raises up fairly high ("I thought he was going to hold up his hands and say 'Ah, you got me.'")
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 03, 2019, 04:23:14 AM
  I see just the opposite.
You see what you want.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 03, 2019, 04:33:40 AM
But her "first shot" is still the one before the fatal head shot.
How do you figure that? She never mentions the head shot and she admitted she was not sure if there were more than two shots. Maybe she just wasn't counting after the first shot because her mind was focused on what she was seeing rather than counting sounds. Maybe the shot that she did not distinguish as a separate shot was one of the last two that were closer together according to the the vast majority of the witnesses.

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It's actually the second shot in most LN three-shot scenarios. She's misplaced the first of the three shots (the one many term the "backfire" or "firecracker") because nothing unusual happened (like a person reacting as if they had been shot) and the crowd behaved as they did before the first shot.
It is also the last shot so why could it not be that they did not distinguish between 2 and 3? It is not about "misplacing" shot sounds. It is about not counting them or not distinguishing separate shots.

Quote
Meanwhile, your theory requires that "two shot" witnesses fail to register your Z271 second shot. This is after the crowd had (per your theory) been alerted to the President reacting on your Z195 first shot, so they should therefore be immediately concerned about any subsequent shots or happenings in the car.
No. It just means that they heard all the shots but were not focused on counting them or recalling a pattern.  Or maybe they just recalled shots that had some visual effect. If they were focused on what they saw and did not see any effects from the first of the last two shots, maybe after the fact.

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 03, 2019, 07:30:34 AM
Not exactly. It does not destroy a second shot SBT but it doesn't exactly support it. He said that when he turned around to see if JFK was ok he was unable to see him. That suggests that JFK  was not where he had been on previous occasions when JBC had turned around to speak with JFK.  It is difficult to understand why he could not have turned around and seen JFK before z193 because JFK is quite far to the right with his right elbow on the top of the right side of the car. JBC had made that turn easily to chat with the President during the trip through Dallas. More to the point, there is no attempt to even look at JFK prior to about z250.

What he said was that he never turned around far enough. And we can see in the Zapruder film that he didn't. Dale Myers has Connally turning sharply to the right beginning at Z157 and reaching 48 degrees of right rotation at Z193.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 03, 2019, 07:36:03 AM


Betzner said he was looking down to wind his camera when he heard the first of two shots he later recalled, the latter one being the head shot. So the winding-the-camera shot he heard could be the shot heard before the head shot. In a three-shot scenario, Betzner has lost track of one of those shots.

(http://i60.tinypic.com/2ih3twy.jpg)

As Betzner goes out of the Zapruder film in Z207, he is still lowering his camera and is not looking down. Assuming he winds his camera shortly thereafter, it is an argument that the shot he heard while winding the camera was the proposed SBT shot at Z223.

Damn Jerry!  Thumb1:
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 03, 2019, 12:37:34 PM
What he said was that he never turned around far enough. And we can see in the Zapruder film that he didn't. Dale Myers has Connally turning sharply to the right beginning at Z157 and reaching 48 degrees of right rotation at Z193.
He did not say the never turned around far enough. His WC testimony indicates that he turned as far as he could but could not catch the President out of the corner of his eye:

"I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.

So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back."

It is absurd to suggest that Gov. Connally was in any way attempting to see JFK prior to disappearing behind the sign and absolutely no suggestion by his actions that he was consumed with fear that an assassination attempt was unfolding. All of that occurs after he reappears from behind the Stemmons sign.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 03, 2019, 08:28:38 PM

After viewing the Zapruder Film J Curry came to the conclusion that Governor John Connally and John F. Kennedy had been hit by separate bullets. He told interviewer Tom Johnson that he was not convinced that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy: "We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did. Nobody's yet been able to put him in the building (Texas School Book Depository) with a gun in his hand."

So we have Jesse Curry
Senator Russell
LBJ and The majority of US citizens polled

All agree that the MBT is BS

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 03, 2019, 09:23:56 PM
He did not say the never turned around far enough.

Mr. DEVINE. The first shot that you hear which caused you to look to your right, I think you said you didn't get far enough around to see the President, is that accurate?
Mr. CONNALLY. That is correct.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscacon.htm
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 03, 2019, 09:37:25 PM
After viewing the Zapruder Film J Curry came to the conclusion that Governor John Connally and John F. Kennedy had been hit by separate bullets. He told interviewer Tom Johnson that he was not convinced that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy: "We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did. Nobody's yet been able to put him in the building (Texas School Book Depository) with a gun in his hand."

So we have Jesse Curry
Senator Russell
LBJ and The majority of US citizens polled

All agree that the MBT is BS

Curry did not say "We don't have any proof that Oswald fired the rifle, and never did."

If he came to the conclusion after viewing the Zapruder film that Governor John Connally and John F. Kennedy had been hit by a separate bullet , then either he never viewed the film the way we can today, or he needed to have his eyes checked.

(https://i.imgur.com/UZP7ht1.gif)

Kennedy's hands are still dropping between those two frames. The bullet has just passed through him but the involuntary reaction has yet to initiate. The bullet and the following blood, flesh and bone have caused Connally's jacket to bulge out.

(https://i.imgur.com/uFqBHiv.gif)

The simultaneous reaction of both Kennedy and Connally is unmistakable and undeniable. They were both hit at virtually the same time by the same bullet.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 03, 2019, 10:31:30 PM

yes ,you have proven a simultaneous bullet strike
but 1 from the front
and 1 from the rear
The shooters obviously planned to fire exactly when the nose of the car
gets to the stemmons sign

The throat wound is an entry wound (there is ample evidence)
GC say's there was a 1-1.2 second gap between shots
"It sounded like an automatic rifle"
Even a world class sniper like LHO cannot recycle that fast



Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 03, 2019, 10:33:53 PM
Quote
The simultaneous reaction of both Kennedy and Connally is unmistakable and undeniable. They were both hit at virtually the same time by the same bullet.


 Thumb1:  The CTer crowd are still stuck in the 60s so don't expect them to acknowledge advancement in photographic enhancement techniques.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 03, 2019, 10:43:51 PM

stuck in the 60's?
you guys that are promoting the MBT
are stuck in the 60's
that sh%t don't fly today
people don't believe it
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Chris Bristow on January 03, 2019, 11:48:36 PM
How do we know Connally was reacting to being hit? Maybe he was just reacting to a round landing within a couple feet of him. If the round did come through the windshield it would have passed within inches of Connally's head.
 I find it questionable that after having 4 inches of rib blasted away he would/could twist around to his right as far as he could  to see JFK. Secondly he holds his Stetson in his right hand after having his Radius shattered and the tendon to his thumb  severed. Then he articulates his wrist downward to fit his hat between him and the door of the limo as he twists around to see JFK. If a round passes through your wrist I doubt you would then bend it like he does. 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jack Trojan on January 04, 2019, 12:19:34 AM
Kennedy's hands are still dropping between those two frames. The bullet has just passed through him but the involuntary reaction has yet to initiate. The bullet and the following blood, flesh and bone have caused Connally's jacket to bulge out.

Who cares? None of this can be proven especially to YOUR satisfaction. If the MB happened 3 seconds later you would be screaming bloody murder denying it all. But none of it matters.

Let's examine what we do know instead. "The bullet and the following blood, flesh and bone have caused Connally's jacket to bulge out." Then where was the DNA on the MB?

Still waiting...
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 04, 2019, 12:25:53 AM
stuck in the 60's?
you guys that are promoting the MBT
are stuck in the 60's
that sh%t don't fly today
people don't believe it

I can understand being skeptical of the SBF back in the 60's but with modern photo enhancements it's illogical not to accept as fact what the eye can see.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Oscar Navarro on January 04, 2019, 12:39:28 AM
How do we know Connally was reacting to being hit? Maybe he was just reacting to a round landing within a couple feet of him. If the round did come through the windshield it would have passed within inches of Connally's head.
 I find it questionable that after having 4 inches of rib blasted away he would/could twist around to his right as far as he could  to see JFK. Secondly he holds his Stetson in his right hand after having his Radius shattered and the tendon to his thumb  severed. Then he articulates his wrist downward to fit his hat between him and the door of the limo as he twists around to see JFK. If a round passes through your wrist I doubt you would then bend it like he does.

JBC was reacting to being hit because he was hit. The evidence for that is beyond doubt. No round came through the windshield. JBC was in the process of turning to his left when struck by CE-399. Even after being hit in the wrist JBC hangs on to his hat.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 04, 2019, 12:44:23 AM
yes ,you have proven a simultaneous bullet strike

Yeah, I've never be able to understand how some can view those GIFs and still maintain that JFK and JBC are not reacting at the same time.

Quote
but 1 from the front
and 1 from the rear
The shooters obviously planned to fire exactly when the nose of the car
gets to the stemmons sign

Man, them boys was good. They timed it perfectly.  ::)

Quote
The throat wound is an entry wound (there is ample evidence)

There is no evidence that the throat wound was an entry wound. In fact, the evidence against it being an entry wound is rather significant. There's an entry wound on the back of the neck. The hole in the throat explains why no bullet was found in the body. The throat wound being an entry wound means that there were two bullets that entered Kennedy below his head. What happened to those two bullets?

Quote
GC say's there was a 1-1.2 second gap between shots
"It sounded like an automatic rifle"
Even a world class sniper like LHO cannot recycle that fast

When or where did Connally ever say that?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 04, 2019, 12:48:22 AM
How do we know Connally was reacting to being hit? Maybe he was just reacting to a round landing within a couple feet of him. If the round did come through the windshield it would have passed within inches of Connally's head.

Connally was not Barney Fife. If the round had come through the windshield there would be a hole in it. There wasn't.

 
Quote
I find it questionable that after having 4 inches of rib blasted away he would/could twist around to his right as far as he could  to see JFK. Secondly he holds his Stetson in his right hand after having his Radius shattered and the tendon to his thumb  severed. Then he articulates his wrist downward to fit his hat between him and the door of the limo as he twists around to see JFK. If a round passes through your wrist I doubt you would then bend it like he does.

Connally held on to his Stetson all the way to Parkland.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 04, 2019, 12:53:01 AM

When or where did Connally ever say that?

 “the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle”

He reiterates

“It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 1.0, 1.2 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots, a very short period of time.” WC Testimony

Your turn to concede bud

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 04, 2019, 01:06:46 AM
Who cares? None of this can be proven especially to YOUR satisfaction. If the MB happened 3 seconds later you would be screaming bloody murder denying it all. But none of it matters.

Let's examine what we do know instead. "The bullet and the following blood, flesh and bone have caused Connally's jacket to bulge out." Then where was the DNA on the MB?

Still waiting...

You think that they could test DNA back then? ???

None of the blood , flesh, or bone from Connally's torso would be expected to be on the bullet.

"A bullet that is not broken up during penetration usually emerges without detectable amounts of blood or tissue clinging to it. As it penetrates, the bullet is moving so rapidly that its primary effect on tissue is to push it aside, creating a temporary cavity, not pick it up." -- The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, by Larry Sturdivan, pg 120

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472

By the time that the FBI lab received the bullet, any blood that might have been on it from Connally's shallow thigh wound would have been wiped clean from being in the sheets of Connally's stretcher and the pocket linings of two or three people.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 04, 2019, 01:11:29 AM
“the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle”

He reiterates

“It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 1.0, 1.2 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots, a very short period of time.” WC Testimony

Your turn to concede bud

Uhhhh......

"Mr. SPECTER: What is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot?
Governor CONNALLY: It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time."


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm

Am I still supposed to concede?

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 04, 2019, 01:14:48 AM
YES

automatic rifle twice

Sorry about that my bad I misunderstood - not deliberate

still automatic rifle though

So when he says

"It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle"

Its pretty clear
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 04, 2019, 01:41:38 AM
YES

automatic rifle twice

Sorry about that my bad I misunderstood - not deliberate

still automatic rifle though

So when he says

"It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle"

Its pretty clear

Ok, I concede to you that Connally did say that he "thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle". You do realize though that 10 to 12 seconds is more than what LNs like myself use in our arguments, right? Now, I haven't chained myself to this but I tend to believe that the first shot was at about Z153.

313 - 153 = 160

160/18.3 = 8.74 seconds
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 04, 2019, 01:49:49 AM
How do we know Connally was reacting to being hit? Maybe he was just reacting to a round landing within a couple feet of him. If the round did come through the windshield it would have passed within inches of Connally's head.
 I find it questionable that after having 4 inches of rib blasted away he would/could twist around to his right as far as he could  to see JFK. Secondly he holds his Stetson in his right hand after having his Radius shattered and the tendon to his thumb  severed.
The tendon to his thumb was severed?

    "After as careful and complete a debridement of the volar wound as
     possible and the integrity of the flexor tendons and the median nerve
     on the volar side established, the wound of exit on the volar surface
     of the wrist was closed primarily with wire sutures. The wound of
     entrance on the radial side of the forearm was only partially closed,
     being left open for the purpose of drainage."
          --Report by Dr. Charles F. Gregory

Gragory did not repair a severed tendon. I don't believe Connally ever reported a disability of the right hand involving the thumb opposing the rest of the hand.

(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/texas-governor-john-b-connally-standing-outside-of-the-state-capitol-picture-id50328865)
June 22, 1966
  (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Portrait_of_John_Connally%2C_Secretary_of_the_Treasury_-_NARA_-_194732.tif/lossy-page1-319px-Portrait_of_John_Connally%2C_Secretary_of_the_Treasury_-_NARA_-_194732.tif.jpg)
August 15, 1971

Quote
Then he articulates his wrist downward to fit his hat between him and the door of the limo as he twists around to see JFK.

How the wrist behaved after being struck probably wasn't voluntary. Since the median nerve and thumb tendon function, the fingers and thumb involuntarily oppose each other. Connally was already holding the Stetson, so no change in how the fingers and thumb held onto it.

Quote
If a round passes through your wrist I doubt you would then bend it like he does.

Of course not. It's been shot, the radius is broken (larger fragments were nondisplaced) and the wrist is seen to dangle unnaturally. The ulna is intact through and much of muscle mass is present. They repaired the Governor's wrist without resort to bone and tissue grafts.

(https://sites.google.com/site/shotonelmclassicsiteview/zapruder/timelife/store/timelife-z262.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Chris Bristow on January 04, 2019, 02:45:33 AM
Jerry, I thought I had heard Cyril Wecht say the tendon was severed, I guess I was wrong on that. Regarding bending of the wrist, he did not bend it till well after the shot so I do not think it was involuntary. It looks like he did it to allow the hat to fit between himself and the door. My point was not about the fingers and thumb, it was about the wrist position changing.
 To say he could still move his wrist because it did not need bone graphs misses the point. Just having a bullet pass through the wrist would make it painful and difficult to bend the wrist. Also I think because the wrist bones are mounted on the radius it would be painful to articulate the wrist.
 These are interesting points to discuss but I try not to reach absolute conclusions about subjects like this. There just isn't enough data.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Chris Bristow on January 04, 2019, 03:24:11 AM
JBC was reacting to being hit because he was hit. The evidence for that is beyond doubt. No round came through the windshield. JBC was in the process of turning to his left when struck by CE-399. Even after being hit in the wrist JBC hangs on to his hat.
The fact they both reacted at the same time may look convincing but it does not prove he was hit as opposed to just reacting to being very close to the shot.
Connally said he turned to the right because he heard the gunshot on that side and also wanted to look at JFK. Then according to the SBT he was shot BEFORE he started to turn not during it. He also said he was unable to see JFK and started to tun to the other side. I make an assumption here that he must have tried to twist around as far as he could while attempting to see JFK. That would mean while missing 4 inches of rib on his RIGHT side he still twists very far to the right.
  I find all this questionable but I am not claiming anything here as proof of anything. Neither do I accept that the evidence is 'beyond doubt' that he was hit by the same round.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 04, 2019, 03:40:15 AM
The fact they both reacted at the same time may look convincing but it does not prove he was hit as opposed to just reacting to being very close to the shot.

You have Connally out to be a Barney Fife-like character.

Quote
Connally said he turned to the right because he heard the gunshot on that side and also wanted to look at JFK. Then according to the SBT he was shot BEFORE he started to turn not during it.

Where do you get that from? The SBT has him being hit as he was turning back toward the front after he had rotated to his right to try to see Kennedy over his right shoulder.  He began that initial turn to the right at about z157 and reached the maximum right rotation at z193. At the time of the strike (ca Z223), his upper torso is turned about 30 degrees to the right.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jack Trojan on January 04, 2019, 04:09:15 AM
You think that they could test DNA back then? ???

DNA is shorthand for blood, flesh or bone, as if you didn't know.

Quote
None of the blood , flesh, or bone from Connally's torso would be expected to be on the bullet.

"A bullet that is not broken up during penetration usually emerges without detectable amounts of blood or tissue clinging to it. As it penetrates, the bullet is moving so rapidly that its primary effect on tissue is to push it aside, creating a temporary cavity, not pick it up." -- The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation of the Kennedy Assassination, by Larry Sturdivan, pg 120

https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Myths-Scientific-Investigation-Assassination/dp/1557788472

By the time that the FBI lab received the bullet, any blood that might have been on it from Connally's shallow thigh wound would have been wiped clean from being in the sheets of Connally's stretcher and the pocket linings of two or three people.

Horsesh@t. And I won't even get into the condition of the MB after it crashed thru JFK's T1 vertebrae and zig-zagged into Connally's chest and smashed thru his wrist bone (leaving material) only to fall out of his thigh and onto the wrong gurney with the copper jacket completely intact and only slightly deformed at the base. Almost like it was fired into a swimming pool.

If that's not magic, then I've got some beans you might be interested in.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 04, 2019, 04:42:10 AM

Mr. DEVINE. The first shot that you hear which caused you to look to your right, I think you said you didn't get far enough around to see the President, is that accurate?
Mr. CONNALLY. That is correct.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscacon.htm
Fair enough. But that does not mean that he could have turned farther and decided not to turn farther.  The point is that he was trying to turn to see the President but couldn't catch him in the corner of his eye to see how he was so he decided to turn to the left, which is where it appeared to him he would get a better view of JFK - presumably because JFK had moved to the left.  Where do you see that move to the left in the zfilm prior to z225?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 04, 2019, 04:50:07 AM

The simultaneous reaction of both Kennedy and Connally is unmistakable and undeniable. They were both hit at virtually the same time by the same bullet.
I agree that both are reacting at the same time to a shot. Whether the reactions began at the same time is not possible to tell because we cannot see if JFK began reacting while behind the Stemmons sign. He certainly appears very different when he emerges in z225 than he did in z193. The fact that both are reacting to a shot does not mean that they are reacting to being hit by it.  The evidence is pretty strong that there was only one shot to that point.  If that is the case, JBC is reacting to the first shot exactly as he said he did- by turning to his right to see the president because he had just heard a rifle shot and thought an assassination was occurring.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 04, 2019, 05:04:02 AM
How do we know Connally was reacting to being hit? Maybe he was just reacting to a round landing within a couple feet of him. If the round did come through the windshield it would have passed within inches of Connally's head.
 I find it questionable that after having 4 inches of rib blasted away he would/could twist around to his right as far as he could  to see JFK. Secondly he holds his Stetson in his right hand after having his Radius shattered and the tendon to his thumb  severed. Then he articulates his wrist downward to fit his hat between him and the door of the limo as he twists around to see JFK. If a round passes through your wrist I doubt you would then bend it like he does.
Very good question. Connally said he reacted to the shot - the first shot - that he believed struck JFK because he heard it and knew it was a rifle shot. He feared an assassination was unfolding and turned to see the President.

The evidence is consistent that the first shot struck JFK so what you see after z230 is Connally's turn to see JFK which he said he did before he was hit in the back on the second shot. The vast majority of witnesses who recalled a pattern to the shots said the last two were closer together so Connally was hit many frames later.  Greer said he turned around immediately after the second shot. His turns just before z280. That is just after Connally is hit.

The irony is that with this evidence (first shot hit JFK, first shot was after z190, last two shots were closer together) there is no need to explain a missed shot for which there is no evidence and there is no need for a second shooter.  Oswald could easily have fired all three.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 04, 2019, 06:22:45 AM
Fair enough. But that does not mean that he could have turned farther and decided not to turn farther.  The point is that he was trying to turn to see the President but couldn't catch him in the corner of his eye to see how he was so he decided to turn to the left, which is where it appeared to him he would get a better view of JFK - presumably because JFK had moved to the left.  Where do you see that move to the left in the zfilm prior to z225?

Why should we presume that JFK had moved to the left at that point? Connally simply had not turned far enough to his right. Myers has him reaching a 48 degree right rotation at z193. That just wasn't far enough to see Kennedy. Why Connally stopped there, I don't know.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 04, 2019, 06:26:36 AM
I agree that both are reacting at the same time to a shot. Whether the reactions began at the same time is not possible to tell because we cannot see if JFK began reacting while behind the Stemmons sign. He certainly appears very different when he emerges in z225 than he did in z193. The fact that both are reacting to a shot does not mean that they are reacting to being hit by it.  The evidence is pretty strong that there was only one shot to that point.  If that is the case, JBC is reacting to the first shot exactly as he said he did- by turning to his right to see the president because he had just heard a rifle shot and thought an assassination was occurring.

(https://i.imgur.com/UZP7ht1.gif)

As Kennedy emerges from behind the sign, the involuntary reaction has yet to show itself. We can see his right hand and arm, that he had been lowering after waving to the crowd, still dropping. He did not begin reacting while behind the Stemmons sign.

(https://i.imgur.com/uFqBHiv.gif)

The reactions of both Kennedy and Connally begin at the same time.  They are in sync.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 04, 2019, 01:37:25 PM
Why should we presume that JFK had moved to the left at that point? Connally simply had not turned far enough to his right.
The problem with that reasoning is that Connally said he was TRYING TO SEE THE PRESIDENT. If I recall correctly, in his initial hospital statement he said the JFK had moved and he could not see him when he turned. There is no way at all that he was trying to see the President prior to disappearing behind the Stemmons sign.


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Myers has him reaching a 48 degree right rotation at z193. That just wasn't far enough to see Kennedy. Why Connally stopped there, I don't know.
Right. Exactly.  The reason is rather obvious: he wasn't trying to see the President. If he was he would have turned around like he did after z230.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 04, 2019, 04:06:28 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/UZP7ht1.gif)

As Kennedy emerges from behind the sign, the involuntary reaction has yet to show itself. We can see his right hand and arm, that he had been lowering after waving to the crowd, still dropping. He did not begin reacting while behind the Stemmons sign.
You are still speculating that the lowering of his hand was not part of the reaction in itself. We don't know that. 

I would point out that the WC thought at z225 JFK was reacting to being shot (WR 98):


The HSCA found that JFK was reacting well before z224 (HSCA Rep. 46):


In the footnote on page 44 of its report, the HSCA noted:


So people who do not share your confidence that JFK is not reacting behind the sign are not being unreasonable. They are just unpersuaded by the evidence and your argument. 

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The reactions of both Kennedy and Connally begin at the same time.  They are in sync.
Only if you are correct that JFK was not already reacting behind the sign. Many, many witnesses said he brought his hands down toward his neck/chest in response to the first shot. They could see JFK "behind" the sign.

In any event, what is the significance of them both beginning to react at the same time? That does not mean that both were reacting to being hit by it.  JBC said he reacted to the first shot, which Nellie and about 20 others saw that JFK also reacted to.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 04, 2019, 04:11:47 PM
Anyone can make stuff like that up. What is your source for the existence of such a rifle? And where can we find one?


.45 calibre is awfully big for a rifle - almost 2x the diameter of the 6.5 mm - 4x the cross-sectional area.  Stability would be a huge problem unless the bullet length increases substantially. But that increases bullet mass and therefore the amount of energy required, so it needs proportionately more powder.  But that is not all. Air resistance increases a the square of the diameter too, which increases the stability forces required. So spin rate has to be even higher to maintain accuracy. But to get a high spin rate it has to traverse the barrel faster.  If you shorten the barrel you have to increase the speed even more.  So I would be very surprised if anyone made such a rifle because it would have so many problems with accuracy.

Why are you attempting to apply the old axiom...If you can't dazzle em with brilliance.. then try to baffle em with BS

Why not do a little honest research and determine the diameter of the dent??
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 04, 2019, 05:31:18 PM
Why are you attempting to apply the old axiom...If you can't dazzle em with brilliance.. then try to baffle em with BS

Why not do a little honest research and determine the diameter of the dent??
I wasn't the one suggesting that there was a .45 calibre rifle in 1963.  As far as I can tell, there wasn't such a rifle.  More to the point, there is are good reasons why such a rifle would not be made.  A .45 calibre bullet would be 5 times heavier than a 6.5 mm bullet.  Try to imagine the recoil from that!  Even at subsonic speeds, it would have 2-3 times the kick of the MC firing 6.5 mm ammunition.  Stability is also a problem, as I mentioned earlier.  If you want to inflict damage, it is better to add speed rather than mass.  If you want stability, it is better to keep it long and narrow rather than short and fat.  Just physics.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on January 04, 2019, 05:50:41 PM
I wasn't the one suggesting that there was a .45 calibre rifle in 1963.  As far as I can tell, there wasn't such a rifle.  More to the point, there is are good reasons why such a rifle would not be made.  A .45 calibre bullet would be 5 times heavier than a 6.5 mm bullet.  Try to imagine the recoil from that!  Even at subsonic speeds, it would have 2-3 times the kick of the MC firing 6.5 mm ammunition.  Stability is also a problem, as I mentioned earlier.  If you want to inflict damage, it is better to add speed rather than mass.  If you want stability, it is better to keep it long and narrow rather than short and fat.  Just physics.

Mr Mason, you're FOS....  There definitely were several 30 caliber carbines modified and converted and re-barreled to fire the 45 acp cartridge.  I probably still have the gun magazine that had the article about the creation of this weapon.... It was created by the CIA as an assassination weapon....  ( They probably had Fidel Castro in mind at the time)

These carbines were equipped with silencers and they fired the subsonic bullet at 850 fps.... They were short range weapons of about 50 yards.... just as the 45 auto hand cannon was designed for short range.....

But frankly my dear....I don't give a damn if you doubt me......
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Eddie Haymaker on January 04, 2019, 08:19:21 PM

Governor Connolly “the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle”

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3655b30ba737fc96dda3be98aada81c8)

Probably the new scoped semi-automatic M16 or AR15 Rifle with suppressor or a similar weapon.(If you look at the diameter of the rear entry wound and the impact on the windshield frame it looks very small for a rifle round, 5.56 mm? perfect.)

fires 5-6 shots hits with
1 on target(JFK),2 Connolly,1 windshield frame,1 tague,1 total miss (1st shot)

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 04, 2019, 09:01:50 PM
I agree that both are reacting at the same time to a shot. Whether the reactions began at the same time is not possible to tell because we cannot see if JFK began reacting while behind the Stemmons sign. He certainly appears very different when he emerges in z225 than he did in z193. The fact that both are reacting to a shot does not mean that they are reacting to being hit by it.  The evidence is pretty strong that there was only one shot to that point.  If that is the case, JBC is reacting to the first shot exactly as he said he did- by turning to his right to see the president because he had just heard a rifle shot and thought an assassination was occurring.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z133-z199/z193.jpg)(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z225.jpg)

"Appears very different"? In what way? He's just not smiling and seems to be looking at the Umbrella Man protester. In Z193, Kennedy is engaging with well-wishers; he's pass them and getting a load of Umbrella Man while behind the sign.

Very good question. Connally said he reacted to the shot - the first shot - that he believed struck JFK because he heard it and knew it was a rifle shot. He feared an assassination was unfolding and turned to see the President.

The evidence is consistent that the first shot struck JFK so what you see after z230 is Connally's turn to see JFK which he said he did before he was hit in the back on the second shot.

Connally thought he was struck in the Z230s; Mrs. Connally the Z220s.

(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z228.jpg)

    "About the time I turned back where I was
     facing more or less straight ahead, the way
     the car was moving, I was hit."
(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/mpi/z200-z249/z242.jpg)

    "Then there was a second shot, and it hit
     John [Connally], and as he recoiled to the
     right ... he turned away from me."
          -- Mrs. Connally

You have to allow several frames for the Governor to perceive the pain from a Z223 bullet strike and for Nellie to turn her attention away from the President to witness her husband's back to her.

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The vast majority of witnesses who recalled a pattern to the shots said the last two were closer together

Well, gee, if we're going with a majority of opinion (or someone's arbitrary "analysis" of what most said) then the limousine stopped on Elm and there's a huge gaping wound on the back of the President's head.

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so Connally was hit many frames later.  Greer said he turned around immediately after the second shot. His turns just before z280. That is just after Connally is hit.


(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z200-z249/z232.jpg)(https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lostbullet/z250-z299/z253.jpg)

Pretty hard to determine if Greer didn't turn his head earlier because the windshield hides his face. So can't claim the late-Z270 head turn was his first.

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The irony is that with this evidence (first shot hit JFK, first shot was after z190, last two shots were closer together)

But your first shot at Z195 doesn't work in 3-D (that is, good 3-D). The bullet that left Kennedy's throat can't possibly get pass Connally's left side to strike the left femur. Also Connally would have sensed the bullet strike, but per your theory, he's unaware for over four seconds that he's been struck. He just swats at a fly with his Stetson and, for the first time in the whole motorcade, twists his body so he's largely back-on to his wife.

There is a mere 2 1/4 seconds between the head shot and your Z271 shot. But almost five seconds between the head shot and the shot that struck at Z223.

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there is no need to explain a missed shot for which there is no evidence and there is no need for a second shooter.  Oswald could easily have fired all three.

Your theory has two missed shots. Both Z195 and Z271 shots show absolutely no bullet strikes or reactions in the Zapruder film.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 04, 2019, 10:32:18 PM

"Appears very different"? In what way? He's just not smiling and seems to be looking at the Umbrella Man protester. In Z193, Kennedy is engaging with well-wishers; he's pass them and getting a load of Umbrella Man while behind the sign.
So we both agree he looks very different. In z193 he is smiling and waving and in z225 he has a look of terror.  You say it is umbrella man, I say it's a bullet.  We'll have to disagree on that.

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Connally thought he was struck in the Z230s; Mrs. Connally the Z220s.

    "About the time I turned back where I was
     facing more or less straight ahead, the way
     the car was moving, I was hit."

    "Then there was a second shot, and it hit
     John [Connally], and as he recoiled to the
     right ... he turned away from me."
          -- Mrs. Connally
Quite true.  They were not questioned, however, on the details. For example, JBC was never asked "Where is it that you turn around to look over your right shoulder to see JFK?"  and Nellie was never asked "You said you did not look in the back seat after the second shot, but there you are looking in the back seat after z232 when you say you think the second shot occurred".
Quote
You have to allow several frames for the Governor to perceive the pain from a Z223 bullet strike and for Nellie to turn her attention away from the President to witness her husband's back to her.
Why? JBC said he felt it immediately. He takes from z224 to z278 to fall back on his wife?

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Pretty hard to determine if Greer didn't turn his head earlier because the windshield hides his face. So can't claim the late-Z270 head turn was his first.
No.  Greer was describing the turn after the second shot as the turn before his last turn which was just before the head shot.  We can see both of those turns.  The first of those last two turns occurs from about z278-280.

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But your first shot at Z195 doesn't work in 3-D (that is, good 3-D). The bullet that left Kennedy's throat can't possibly get pass Connally's left side to strike the left femur.
Not according to the actual dimensions of the car, the seats, the jump seat back height, the bullet trajectory from the SN and the positions of the men as seen in the zfilm:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_First_Shot_2.jpg) (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_First_Shot_3.jpg)(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_First_Shot_4.jpg)(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_First_Shot_1.jpg)

Quote
Also Connally would have sensed the bullet strike, but per your theory, he's unaware for over four seconds that he's been struck. He just swats at a fly with his Stetson and, for the first time in the whole motorcade, twists his body so he's largely back-on to his wife.
Bullets do not necessarily hurt.  JBC said he never felt the thigh wound.   He said that he felt the impact but no pain from the back wound.  So why would he feel pain from the thigh wound? There was no loss of function of his leg, unlike from his chest wound. It is not uncommon in battle for soldiers to receive extremity wounds and not be aware of it until they or someone else notices blood.  Here is the experience of someone who was shot in the leg (http://americanshootingjournal.com/heres-what-it-feels-like-to-get-shot/):


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There is a mere 2 1/4 seconds between the head shot and your Z271 shot. But almost five seconds between the head shot and the shot that struck at Z223.
Right. Give or take because we don't know exactly when in relation to the exposures the two shots occurred. So between shots captured in z272 and z313 there could be up to 54.7 ms x 42 + 30 ms = 2.33 seconds between them. That seems to fit "rapid succession" and puts the second perceptibly closer to the third than the first, unlike a second shot at z223.

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Your theory has two missed shots. Both Z195 and Z271 shots show absolutely no bullet strikes or reactions in the Zapruder film.
Not exactly "missed" shots - certainly not like missing the car, the road and everything else which is what the SBT requires.  It depends on what he was trying to hit. Both shots were very, very close to the target if JFK's head was the target. In fact, the shot at z271-72 was close enough to JFK's head that his hair flew forward, according to Hickey.
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/3D_Model_DP_z271.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 04, 2019, 11:59:16 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/UZP7ht1.gif)

As Kennedy emerges from behind the sign, the involuntary reaction has yet to show itself. We can see his right hand and arm, that he had been lowering after waving to the crowd, still dropping. He did not begin reacting while behind the Stemmons sign.

(https://i.imgur.com/uFqBHiv.gif)

The reactions of both Kennedy and Connally begin at the same time.  They are in sync.

Nah, JBC heard the shot and decided to put his bullet-proof Stetson on. The missed shot skipped past Aparicio at second, scoring Mantle from third.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Mike Orr on January 05, 2019, 05:16:11 PM
Try selling your Magic Bullet Theory to your friends at your next " Party " ! It's a quick way to end a Party !
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 06, 2019, 02:45:07 AM
You are still speculating that the lowering of his hand was not part of the reaction in itself. We don't know that.

How exactly would that work? His hand drops for 1.7 seconds as part of an involuntary reaction and then leaps upwards as part of the same involuntary reaction? I've never heard tell of such a thing before. 

Quote
I would point out that the WC thought at z225 JFK was reacting to being shot (WR 98):

    "When President Kennedy again came fully into view in the Zapruder film at frame 225, he seemed to be reacting to his neck wound by raising his hands to his throat.  ...  According to Shaneyfelt the reaction was “clearly apparent in 226 and barely apparent in 225.”

Right. The reaction can be seen beginning at Z225.

Quote
The HSCA found that JFK was reacting well before z224 (HSCA Rep. 46):

    "By Zapruder frame 207, when President Kennedy is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view, he appears to be reacting to a severe external stimulus. This reaction is first indicated in the vicinity of frame 200 of the Zapruder film. The President's right hand freezes in the midst of a waving motion, followed by a rapid leftward movement of his head. (43) There is, therefore, photographic evidence of a shot striking the President by this time."

In the footnote on page 44 of its report, the HSCA noted:

    "In its report, the committee's photographic Connally reacted to his wounds evidence panel suggested that Governor interval might have been approximately one second after President Kennedy. This interval might have been even less, but a sign obstructing Zapruder's field of view made it impossible to study the Governor immediately after the President first appeared to be reacting to having been shot."

The HSCA Photographic Panel was no where near unanimous on that.

Quote
Only if you are correct that JFK was not already reacting behind the sign. Many, many witnesses said he brought his hands down toward his neck/chest in response to the first shot. They could see JFK "behind" the sign.

Who cares what many witnesses thought that they saw? We can see for ourselves that JFK's hands are well below his neck at Z224 and still dropping.

Quote
In any event, what is the significance of them both beginning to react at the same time? That does not mean that both were reacting to being hit by it.  JBC said he reacted to the first shot, which Nellie and about 20 others saw that JFK also reacted to.

Their reacting at the same time in the way that they did means that they were hit at the same time. You've already admitted that they were hit by the same bullet so why are you still fighting this? You made a big mistake embracing your pet theory so many years ago. It's a theory that does not stand up under scrutiny. You should have abandoned it years ago. Let this be a lesson to others.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 06, 2019, 03:32:27 AM
So we both agree he looks very different. In z193 he is smiling and waving and in z225 he has a look of terror.  You say it is umbrella man, I say it's a bullet.  We'll have to disagree on that.

Well, OK. When someone simply stops smiling, they automatically display a "look of terror."

Quote

Quite true.  They were not questioned, however, on the details. For example, JBC was never asked "Where is it that you turn around to look over your right shoulder to see JFK?"  and Nellie was never asked "You said you did not look in the back seat after the second shot, but there you are looking in the back seat after z232 when you say you think the second shot occurred".Why? JBC said he felt it immediately.


I think if Mrs. Connally is choosing the Z220s for the second shot and the Governor is choosing the Z230s for the shot he felt (ie: the second shot), then what does that tell you about where they felt their actions before that occurred?

Quote
He takes from z224 to z278 to fall back on his wife?

So what? Nellie said she noticed that immediately after the second shot, she saw that her husband had recoil so he was back-on to her. She said it was later that she pulled him towards her.

Quote
No.  Greer was describing the turn after the second shot as the turn before his last turn which was just before the head shot.  We can see both of those turns.  The first of those last two turns occurs from about z278-280.

Couldn't find that.

Quote
Not according to the actual dimensions of the car, the seats, the jump seat back height, the bullet trajectory from the SN and the positions of the men as seen in the zfilm:(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_First_Shot_2.jpg) (http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_First_Shot_3.jpg)(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_First_Shot_4.jpg)(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_First_Shot_1.jpg)

Which you mostly got wrong.

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/mason/sketchup/mason-spongeboob-squarepants.jpg)

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Bullets do not necessarily hurt.  JBC said he never felt the thigh wound.   He said that he felt the impact but no pain from the back wound.  So why would he feel pain from the thigh wound? There was no loss of function of his leg, unlike from his chest wound. It is not uncommon in battle for soldiers to receive extremity wounds and not be aware of it until they or someone else notices blood.

There wasn't a battle going on in Dealey Plaza at the time. And for veteran politicians, there wasn't much about the motorcade to distract them. Jackie recalled that before the shots, she was mostly concerned about her physical comfort, thinking it would be cool under the overpass.

Quote
Here is the experience of someone who was shot in the leg (http://americanshootingjournal.com/heres-what-it-feels-like-to-get-shot/):
  • "Felt Like My Leg was Heavy And Wet, But Getting Shot Didn’t Hurt secondhand_organs: “I took a bullet in the *ss cheek that did some kind of parabolic arc and exited out of the back of my thigh. I didn’t feel the impact, but wondered why my leg felt heavy and wet (I was on a bicycle at the time). Getting shot itself didn’t hurt, but getting treated for it did. "

Not sensing pain seems rare even on that page you cited.

Quote
Right. Give or take because we don't know exactly when in relation to the exposures the two shots occurred. So between shots captured in z272 and z313 there could be up to 54.7 ms x 42 + 30 ms = 2.33 seconds between them. That seems to fit "rapid succession" and puts the second perceptibly closer to the third than the first, unlike a second shot at z223. Not exactly "missed" shots - certainly not like missing the car, the road and everything else which is what the SBT requires.

The SBT now requires the missed shot to not hit the road? You just overplayed your hand, counselor.

Quote
It depends on what he was trying to hit. Both shots were very, very close to the target if JFK's head was the target. In fact, the shot at z271-72 was close enough to JFK's head that his hair flew forward, according to Hickey.(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/3D_Model_DP_z271.jpg)

"According to Hickey"? You mean he actually said it was a bullet that made Kennedy's hair move on the second shot?

Time for a "Shoehorn"!

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/mason/sketchup/shoehorn-271-shoulder-joint-entry.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 06, 2019, 11:04:12 PM
Well, OK. When someone simply stops smiling, they automatically display a "look of terror."
I am not sure what your point is. JFK in z225 does not look like he simply stopped smiling. Something caused him to assume that pained or startled look. Whatever it was, it happened more than 1/10th of a second (2 frames) earlier because that is the minimum reaction time.

Quote
I think if Mrs. Connally is choosing the Z220s for the second shot and the Governor is choosing the Z230s for the shot he felt (ie: the second shot), then what does that tell you about where they felt their actions before that occurred?
For the record, they both saw slides of the frames just before they testified to the WC.  They both chose the same frames - z229-z234:

4H145

Mr. SPECTER. I have just one other question, Governor. With respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning?
Governor CONNNALLY. I had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when I was in the hospital in Dallas. I had not seen the slides.
Mr. SPECTER. And when do you think you were hit on those slides, Governor. Or in what range of slides?
Governor CONNALLY. We took-you are talking about the number of the slides?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Governor CONNALLY. As we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that I was hit in the range between 130 or 131, I don’t remember precisely, up to 134, in that bracket.
Mr. SPECTER. May I suggest to you that it was 231?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, 231 and 234, then.
Mr. SPECTER. The series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was-
Governor CONNALLY. It was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was 200, I correct my testimony. It was 231 to about 234. It was within that range.
Mr. SPECTER. That is all.


4 H 149
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an opinion as to which frame it was that Governor Connally was shot?
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes. I was in agreement with the Governor. I am not sure I remember the numbers so correct me. but I thought at the time that it was that 229--it could hare been then through the next three or four frames.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything-
Mrs. CONNALLY. They were blurred.

Just a comment:  it is interesting that JBC says " It was just after we came out of the sign".  Perhaps he was recalling that he was hit just after he passed the sign. JBC passed the Stemmons sign at about z268 or so.

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So what? Nellie said she noticed that immediately after the second shot, she saw that her husband had recoil so he was back-on to her. She said it was later that she pulled him towards her.
He did not describe hanging around for 3 seconds before falling back.  Greer said he fell back immediately.  He said he turned around immediately after the second shot and saw JBC falling back onto his wife.
Quote
Couldn't find that.
2 H 118: 
Mr. GREER I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

Mr. GREER. He was-he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him?
Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn’t gotten his shoulder, he hadn’t fell down or anything. He probably was in a Position such as I am now.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?
Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side.

These last two turns he described which he described as occurring between the second and third shots.  He is turned around looking rearward at z280-291 and z303-317.   The turn at z303 begins at z301. So the turn at z280 probably began a similar amount of time before, z278 or so.  We can tell he is turned at z280 because we can see his face in z287 turned rearward and if you progress backward, the two light spots on the top of his head remain in the same position until z280 so his head does not turn during those 8 frames.

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Which you mostly got wrong.
The point is that the bullet path from the SN at z197 goes to the left side of JBC. He was wounded in only one place on his left side and the wound is consistent with being hit by the butt end of an intact missile (Dr. Gregory).  The bullet wound was debrided down to the femur, according to the doctor who operated on it (Dr. Shires) and it was on an ang, along the direction of the femur.

Dr. Shires described the wound as follows (6 H 106):

"Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment embedded in the femur of the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.
Mr. SPECTER What size fragment was there in the Governor’s leg at that time?
Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after tha debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?
Dr. SHIRES. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?
Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter--one to two."

Quote
There wasn't a battle going on in Dealey Plaza at the time. And for veteran politicians, there wasn't much about the motorcade to distract them. Jackie recalled that before the shots, she was mostly concerned about her physical comfort, thinking it would be cool under the overpass.

Not sensing pain seems rare even on that page you cited.
You have to look at people who received just a flesh wound - no damage to bones or organs.  Besides, the best evidence is from JBC himself.  He said he never felt the thigh wound or wrist wound and even the chest wound did not hurt. He felt no pain until he got to Parkland, probably due to a collapsed lung.

Quote
The SBT now requires the missed shot to not hit the road? You just overplayed your hand, counselor.
Well, it vanished without causing any mark in the road.  There is really no evidence that it struck the road.

Quote
"According to Hickey"? You mean he actually said it was a bullet that made Kennedy's hair move on the second shot?
That was the conclusion he drew.  18 H 762:
"The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. "

It is apparent that he thought, at least in retrospect, that the shots were directed at JFK's head and he concluded from the hair flying up and no appearance of impact that the bullet missed.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Organ on January 08, 2019, 03:12:19 AM
I am not sure what your point is. JFK in z225 does not look like he simply stopped smiling. Something caused him to assume that pained or startled look. Whatever it was, it happened more than 1/10th of a second (2 frames) earlier because that is the minimum reaction time.

"Look of terror" downgraded to "pained or startled look".

(http://i65.tinypic.com/13z8wt5.jpg)

He could have been half-smiling, for all the film tells us. But a "look of terror"?

Quote
Just a comment:  it is interesting that JBC says " It was just after we came out of the sign".  Perhaps he was recalling that he was hit just after he passed the sign. JBC passed the Stemmons sign at about z268 or so.

Connally says that in the same breath he's talking about his viewing of the Zapruder frames.

Quote
He did not describe hanging around for 3 seconds before falling back.  Greer said he fell back immediately.  He said he turned around immediately after the second shot and saw JBC falling back onto his wife.2 H 118: 
Mr. GREER I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after.

Mr. GREER. He was-he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him?
Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn’t gotten his shoulder, he hadn’t fell down or anything. He probably was in a Position such as I am now.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?
Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be to his left or to his side.

These last two turns he described which he described as occurring between the second and third shots.  He is turned around looking rearward at z280-291 and z303-317.   The turn at z303 begins at z301. So the turn at z280 probably began a similar amount of time before, z278 or so.  We can tell he is turned at z280 because we can see his face in z287 turned rearward and if you progress backward, the two light spots on the top of his head remain in the same position until z280 so his head does not turn during those 8 frames.

I think Greer's two turns between Z280 and Z271 are really one. Greer just momentarily looks ahead to check his steering. Greer simply didn't remember the brief turn forward, or thought it unimportant. His head is largely hidden by the windshield and rear-view mirror in many of the frames between the Stemmons sign and the Z270s, so he could have looked back earlier than Z280.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/2enclfn.jpg)

Kellerman said he turned around to see the President with his hands at his throat. He does a sharp leftward head-turn about Z252-Z290.

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left.
          Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what
          you saw in terms of position of his hands.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it.

Kellerman did not indicate there was a shot fired while he was looking backwards.

Quote
The point is that the bullet path from the SN at z197 goes to the left side of JBC.

"Computer says: No."

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/mason/sketchup/mason-spongeboob-squarepants.jpg)

(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/mason/sketchup/z190s-slope-to-connally-right-side.jpg)

Quote
Well, it vanished without causing any mark in the road.  There is really no evidence that it struck the road.

That's what they'll be saying about the Andrew Mason Theory if this keeps up.

Quote
That was the conclusion he drew.  18 H 762:
"The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. "

It is apparent that he thought, at least in retrospect, that the shots were directed at JFK's head and he concluded from the hair flying up and no appearance of impact that the bullet missed.

I think Hickry is probably talking about the headshot ("hair flew forward"). Could have heard the impact on the head and the sound of the rifle report a split-second later as two shots ("there seemed to be practically no time element between them"). Kennedy's head went backwards and to the left, sort of in the direction of Hickey, so he would have perceived less of the head snap and more of the hair (scalp) flying away. Hearing the rifle report, he then sees the President's much-larger overall movements and thinks it's a reaction to a bullet strike.

(http://i66.tinypic.com/24zawxc.jpg)

Hickey couldn't see the little hair flutter in the Z270s
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 08, 2019, 05:04:49 PM
"Look of terror" downgraded to "pained or startled look".
The descriptors "terror" or "pained" or "startled" are different ways of describing JFK's look in z225. The look is consistent with something unexpected and unpleasant happening to him and inconsistent with him just deciding to stop smiling and waving. The timing also tells you that because the chance of him reacting to something sudden and unpleasant 55 ms. before, but unrelated to, his reaction to being shot seems rather unlikely.

Quote
Connally says that in the same breath he's talking about his viewing of the Zapruder frames.
I was just pointing out that he may not have realized that there was a  significant difference between appearing from behind the sign in the zfilm and actually passing the sign.  No one bothered to ask him. This was one of the problems with the WC: there was no counsel taking an opposing position and asking probing questions, such as I have suggested could have been asked.

Quote
I think Greer's two turns between Z280 and Z271 are really one.
??271?.  Did you mean z291?  If so, I agree. He remains turned from z280 to z291 because we can see the top of his head remaining in the same position.  It is not in that position in z279 and before that we cannot see Greer's head as it is blocked by the windshield frame/sun visor. There is no other turn until z301-303 which lasts to about z317.  So the turn at z280-291, which is when JBC falls back onto his wife, is definitely the one before the third shot and the one he described as having been made immediately after the second shot.


Quote
Greer just momentarily looks ahead to check his steering. Greer simply didn't remember the brief turn forward, or thought it unimportant. His head is largely hidden by the windshield and rear-view mirror in many of the frames between the Stemmons sign and the Z270s, so he could have looked back earlier than Z280.
Yes, he could have looked back earlier but he would not have seen JBC falling back onto his wife then.  He described his last two turns in relation to the shots he heard.  On the first of those last two turns, he saw JBC falling.  That has to be the turn from z280-291.  He turned forward beginning about z291 and turned back again from z301-303, less than a second later which is when the third shot occurred.

Quote
Kellerman said he turned around to see the President with his hands at his throat. He does a sharp leftward head-turn about Z252-Z290.

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left.
          Had you turned to the left after hearing his voice?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what
          you saw in terms of position of his hands.
Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it.

Kellerman did not indicate there was a shot fired while he was looking backwards.
Kellerman is looking back while JBC is falling back onto his wife. He didn't comment on seeing that either.

Quote
"Computer says: No."
You did a 3D model to prove this? My computer says your computer hasn't done its homework. Anyone looking at your supposed 3D view will see that the trajectory through JFK is left to right, not right to left:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/jerryorgan-spongeboob-squarepantssquared.jpg)

A left-to-right shot could not have come from the TSBD.

Quote
I think Hickey is probably talking about the headshot ("hair flew forward"). Could have heard the impact on the head and the sound of the rifle report a split-second later as two shots ("there seemed to be practically no time element between them"). Kennedy's head went backwards and to the left, sort of in the direction of Hickey, so he would have perceived less of the head snap and more of the hair (scalp) flying away. Hearing the rifle report, he then sees the President's much-larger overall movements and thinks it's a reaction to a bullet strike.


Hickey couldn't see the little hair flutter in the Z270s
Hickey would have disagreed with you. He said he saw it and he was not looking forward until after z256.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 09, 2019, 06:59:26 AM
Myers match to Zapruder
-David Emerling

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 09, 2019, 06:57:39 PM
Myers match to Zapruder
-David Emerling

The following is evident from Myers supposed reconstruction.

1. Myers recognizes that there has to be a space between the hands in order for the bullet to go from JFK to JBC.  So he makes the space. The problem is that the space does not appear in z226, or z225 or z224.

2. Myers shows the two men in the correct lateral position but never explains how this puts JBC's right armpit left of JFK's midline at all, let alone a distance sufficient to have the bullet, moving right to left at about 9-10 degrees strike it. 

Myers refuses to show us the 3D model from above and refuses to show the path being a straight line going from JBC's right armpit, through JFK and back to the SN.  He refuses to discuss the angle used for his so-called bullet trajectory.  I did a 3D model based on a scale map of Dealey Plaza. It shows that a line from the SN through JFK's neck goes well to the left of JBC's right armpit at z197:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_front_from_Zapruder.jpg)
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_front_SN.jpg)
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z197_front_SN_above.jpg)

At z225 it is a bit better for the SBT but JBC is not turned as much if at all and the bullet strikes JBC in the middle of the spine:
(http://www.dufourlaw.com/JFK/limo_z225_SBT_position_1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 09, 2019, 11:30:56 PM
@Andrew

The bullet has already passed through by the time the hands start to rise
Unless you believe that JFK's hands were faster than a speeding bullet

:D


'Faster than a speeding bullet'
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 10, 2019, 03:19:54 AM
@Andrew

The bullet has already passed through by the time the hands start to rise
Unless you believe that JFK's hands were faster than a speeding bullet
There was no space between JFK's hands in z224 either.  If the shot passed through him during frame z224, how do you suppose it missed his hands, wrists and forearms?  Someone should at least be able to demonstrate the trajectory from his neck to JBC's right armpit that misses his arms/hands.  So far as I can tell, no second-shot SBT proponent has done this.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 10, 2019, 04:44:24 AM
There was no space between JFK's hands in z224 either.  If the shot passed through him during frame z224, how do you suppose it missed his hands, wrists and forearms?  Someone should at least be able to demonstrate the trajectory from his neck to JBC's right armpit that misses his arms/hands.  So far as I can tell, no second-shot SBT proponent has done this.

I didn't pass through him at Z224. It passed through a frame or two before that.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 03:58:57 PM
I didn't pass through him at Z224. It passed through a frame or two before that.

Phil Willis put a time stamp on the first shot by clicking the shutter on his camera when the sound

of that shot startled him. About Z-205

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.

A shot at Z-223 would require a second gunman.

The alleged murder weapon couldn't be fired fast enough to be responsible for both shots.

18.5 frames from the Z film took 1 second.

The fastest time to physically fire and rechamber another bullet with the Carcano was 2 1/2 seconds.

That equals about 46 frames of the Z-film.

Z-205 to Z-223 = 18 frames = second gunman = conspiracy.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205%20arrow.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205_1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 04:15:46 PM
John F Kennedy - The Autopsy

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5)

ARRB MD 41 - White House Transcript of Dallas Press Conference

-snip-

Q. Where was the entrance wound?

Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.


Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?

Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.

-snip-

Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?

Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.


-snip-

-----------------

http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/31st_Issue/vs_wounds.html (http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/31st_Issue/vs_wounds.html)

Mr. Specter. What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?

Dr. Baxter. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be--first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit. (VI, H-42)

"Mr. Specter had even more severe problems with Dr. Ronald Coy Jones of Parkland Hospital, whom he asked about the neck wounds:"

Mr. Specter. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in the anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound." What led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. Jones. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination. (VI, H-55)

"Even Mr. Specter could not find in this account much opportunity for turning this neck wound into an exit wound. So, in good prosecutor-like fashion, he prodded for the thin slant of Commission daylight in Dr. Jones's otherwise dark view of the Commission's suggestions:"

Mr. Specter. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. Jones. Yes, of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. (VI, H-55)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 05:07:10 PM
quote author=Martin Hinrichs

"What we see here is in my eyes clearly the impact-moment of the shot which hits Kennedy in his back."

(http://www.jfkennedy.it/Immagini/Leprovedelcomplotto/nelfilmdiZapruder/backhit.gif)

(http://www.jfkennedy.it/Immagini/Leprovedelcomplotto/nelfilmdiZapruder/Z229-235.gif)


"Credit Giuseppe Sabatino"

Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 10, 2019, 05:38:14 PM
quote author=Martin Hinrichs

"What we see here is in my eyes clearly the impact-moment of the shot which hits Kennedy in his back."

(http://www.jfkennedy.it/Immagini/Leprovedelcomplotto/nelfilmdiZapruder/backhit.gif)

(http://www.jfkennedy.it/Immagini/Leprovedelcomplotto/nelfilmdiZapruder/Z229-235.gif)


"Credit Giuseppe Sabatino"

BS

Hinrichs always cheats the Zfilm; he starts the video way too late

Tell us how Kennedy would already have his hands up at impact
Pain is what caused his hands to rise in the first place
The bullet had already passed through before he could react

The missile was supersonic, FFS.

Get real
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 10, 2019, 05:59:52 PM

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5)

ARRB MD 41 - White House Transcript of Dallas Press Conference

-snip-

Q. Where was the entrance wound?

Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.


Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?

Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.

-snip-

Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?

Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.


-snip-

Mr. SPECTER - Based on your observations of the neck wound alone, do you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound.
Dr. PERRY - No, sir. I was unable to determine that since I did not ascertain the exact trajectory of the missile. The operative procedure which I performed was restricted to securing an adequate airway and insuring there was no injury to the carotid artery or jugular vein at that level and at that point I made the procedure.
Mr. SPECTER - Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?
Dr. PERRY - It could have been either.
Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.
Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.
Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?
Dr. PERRY - Certainly would be consistent with an exit wound.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, assuming one additional fact that there was no bullet found in the body of the President, and assuming the facts which I have just set forth to be true, do you have an opinion as to whether the wound which you observed in the President's neck was an entrance or an exit wound?
Dr. PERRY - A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which you have made available and with these assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound.

Quote
http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/31st_Issue/vs_wounds.html (http://spot.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/31st_Issue/vs_wounds.html)

Mr. Specter. What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?

Dr. Baxter. It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be--first its speed would create
a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike,
tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the
further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large
wound of exit. (VI, H-42)

Dr Baxter: We could not determine, or did not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry. However, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that it would pass through on the way to the neck, I think that the wound could well represent either exit or entry wound.
Mr. Specter: Assuming some factors in addition to those which you personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the Scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process--assume this is the set of facts, that the wound Just described was caused by a 6.5 mm bullet shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have Just given to you?
Dr. Baxter: Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a wound of exit.
Mr. Specter: What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?
Dr. Baxter : It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be---first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit.
Mr. Specter: But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?
Dr. Baxter: Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit was not of any greater magnitude than it was.


Quote
"Mr. Specter had even more severe problems with Dr. Ronald Coy Jones of Parkland Hospital, whom he asked about the neck wounds:"

Mr. Specter. In this report, Dr. Jones, you state the following, "Previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted
as well as a small hole in the anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound." What led you to the thought
that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir?

Dr. Jones. The hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting
from a patient. If this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than
this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more
tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination. (VI, H-55)

"Even Mr. Specter could not find in this account much opportunity for turning this neck wound into an exit wound. So, in good prosecutor
-like fashion, he prodded for the thin slant of Commission daylight in Dr. Jones's otherwise dark view of the Commission's suggestions:"


Mr. Specter. Would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it?

Dr. Jones. Yes, of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and
just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. (VI, H-55)

Mr. SPECTER - What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment of bullet wounds?
Dr. JONES - During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, sometimes as many as four and five a night.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds?
Dr. JONES - No.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 ram. bullet which passed through the body of a person and exited from a neck without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250 feet from the weapon?
Dr. JONES - No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the body, but not in the neck.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 10, 2019, 06:14:55 PM
Phil Willis put a time stamp on the first shot by clicking the shutter on his camera when the sound

of that shot startled him. About Z-205

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.

A shot at Z-223 would require a second gunman.

The alleged murder weapon couldn't be fired fast enough to be responsible for both shots.

18.5 frames from the Z film took 1 second.

The fastest time to physically fire and rechamber another bullet with the Carcano was 2 1/2 seconds.

That equals about 46 frames of the Z-film.

Z-205 to Z-223 = 18 frames = second gunman = conspiracy.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205%20arrow.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205_1.jpg)

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction,

That head snap of Mrs Kennedy's happened in the Z170s.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 10, 2019, 06:38:28 PM
There was no space between JFK's hands in z224 either.  If the shot passed through him during frame z224, how do you suppose it missed his hands, wrists and forearms?  Someone should at least be able to demonstrate the trajectory from his neck to JBC's right armpit that misses his arms/hands.  So far as I can tell, no second-shot SBT proponent has done this.

The bullet would have been long gone by the time he got his hands to his throat

No Superman, he...
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 07:11:56 PM
BS

Hinrichs always cheats the Zfilm; he starts the video way too late

Tell us how Kennedy would already have his hands up at impact
Pain is what caused his hands to rise in the first place
The bullet had already passed through before he could react

The missile was supersonic, FFS.

Get real

He was hit in the front of his throat by the first shot Willis recorded at Z-205.

That started the movement of his hands.

The frames Hinrich referenced are Z-228 to Z-235.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 07:15:25 PM
Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction,

That head snap of Mrs Kennedy's happened in the Z170s.

Obviously, if the sound of the shot at Z-205 caused him to click the shutter on his camera, he is

mistaken about Mrs. Kennedy's head snap.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 07:17:29 PM
Mr. SPECTER - Based on your observations of the neck wound alone, do you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound.
Dr. PERRY - No, sir. I was unable to determine that since I did not ascertain the exact trajectory of the missile. The operative procedure which I performed was restricted to securing an adequate airway and insuring there was no injury to the carotid artery or jugular vein at that level and at that point I made the procedure.
Mr. SPECTER - Based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound?
Dr. PERRY - It could have been either.
Mr. SPECTER - Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion.
Assume first of all that the President was struck by a 6.5 mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, with the weapon being approximately 160 to 250 feet from the President, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately 45 degrees, striking the President on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the President's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the President's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck.
Now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the President be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances?
Dr. PERRY - Certainly would be consistent with an exit wound.
Mr. SPECTER - Now, assuming one additional fact that there was no bullet found in the body of the President, and assuming the facts which I have just set forth to be true, do you have an opinion as to whether the wound which you observed in the President's neck was an entrance or an exit wound?
Dr. PERRY - A full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which you have made available and with these assumptions, I believe that it was an exit wound.

Dr Baxter: We could not determine, or did not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an exit wound. Judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry. However, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that it would pass through on the way to the neck, I think that the wound could well represent either exit or entry wound.
Mr. Specter: Assuming some factors in addition to those which you personally observed, Dr. Baxter, what would your opinion be if these additional facts were present: First, the President had a bullet wound of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the Scapula with the wound measuring 7 by 4 mm. in oval shape, being 14 cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and 14 cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process--assume this is the set of facts, that the wound Just described was caused by a 6.5 mm bullet shot from approximately 160 to 250 feet away from the President, from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately 2,000 feet per second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the President's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the President's throat be consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which I have Just given to you?
Dr. Baxter: Although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a wound of exit.
Mr. Specter: What would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely?
Dr. Baxter : It would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be---first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit.
Mr. Specter: But relating the situation as I hypothesized it for you?
Dr. Baxter: Then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit was not of any greater magnitude than it was.


Mr. SPECTER - What is your experience, Doctor, if any, in the treatment of bullet wounds?
Dr. JONES - During our residency here we have approximately 1 complete year out of the 4 years on the trauma service here, and this is in addition to the 2 months that we spend every other day and every other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, sometimes as many as four and five a night.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds?
Dr. JONES - No.
Mr. SPECTER - Have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a 6.5 ram. bullet which passed through the body of a person and exited from a neck without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of 160 to 250 feet from the weapon?
Dr. JONES - No; I have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the anterior portion of the neck. I have seen it in other places of the body, but not in the neck.



I'll take the first day quotes and impressions over media and government tainted WC testimony.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 10, 2019, 07:22:58 PM
His hands went up when he was hit in the front of his throat by the first shot Willis recorded at Z-205.

The frames Hinrich referenced are Z-228 to Z-235

His hands going up were an involuntary reaction. If he's hit at Z205 , then it took over a second for that reaction to begin. Try presenting that theory to a medical professional.

Also, you have two bullets entering Kennedy's neck. What happened to them?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 10, 2019, 07:24:39 PM
Obviously, if the sound of the shot at Z-205 caused him to click the shutter on his camera, he is

mistaken about Mrs. Kennedy's head snap.


Obviously, if Mrs Kennedy snapped her head to the right at the sound of the first shot, he is mistaken about when he clicked the shutter on his camera.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 10, 2019, 07:27:34 PM

I'll take the first day quotes and impressions over media and government tainted WC testimony.

I'll take statements made under oath over first day impressions that are known to be incorrect.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 10, 2019, 07:47:37 PM
His hands going up were an involuntary reaction. If he's hit at Z205 , then it took over a second for that reaction to begin. Try presenting that theory to a medical professional.

Also, you have two bullets entering Kennedy's neck. What happened to them?

JFK swallowed them
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 07:48:29 PM
I'll take statements made under oath over first day impressions that are known to be incorrect.

 ???

Mr. WILLIS. No, sir; I took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. Then I started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of Life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. Then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and I got a picture of the President as he was hit with the first shot. So instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 07:56:41 PM
His hands going up were an involuntary reaction. If he's hit at Z205 , then it took over a second for that reaction to begin. Try presenting that theory to a medical professional.

Also, you have two bullets entering Kennedy's neck. What happened to them?

No, you have 2 bullets entering his neck.

I have one in the neck and at least 1 maybe 2 in his back.

What happened to all the bullets?

Ozzie's a patsy and the WC a cover-up.

Why would the fate of bullets that disprove that be part of the official narrative.

There are numerous reports of bullets hitting pavement, asphalt and turf in Dealy, not to mention the crime

scene limo disappearing from the investigation.

Many DP witnesses and the HSCA agreed shots came from more than one direction.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 07:57:22 PM
JFK swallowed them

You been drinking?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 07:59:22 PM

Obviously, if Mrs Kennedy snapped her head to the right at the sound of the first shot, he is mistaken about when he clicked the shutter on his camera.

The photo corresponds to about Z-205 not the Z-170's.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 10, 2019, 08:11:10 PM
He was hit in the front of his throat by the first shot Willis recorded at Z-205.

That started the movement of his hands.

The frames Hinrich referenced are Z-228 to Z-235.

Where did the bullet wind up...
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on January 10, 2019, 08:19:31 PM
Where did the bullet wind up...
Yes; and where did the bullet come from? There's no hole in the windshield so it didn't go through there. Where did the sniper/shooter fire from? What location? Did the shot go over the windshield and then through his throat and then disappeared? If it went over the windshield then the shooter was located above JFK?

So a bullet went into his back and disappeared and another went into his throat and disappeared? And these shooters were, again where?

Whenever the conspiracists come up with alternative explanations they fall completely apart. At least I'm not convinced of them and I'm such an easygoing fellow.



Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 08:30:21 PM
Where did the bullet wind up...

When a patsy's being framed and a crime covered up evidence disappears.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 10, 2019, 08:34:34 PM
Yes; and where did the bullet come from? There's no hole in the windshield so it didn't go through there. Where did the sniper/shooter fire from? What location? Did the shot go over the windshield and then through his throat and then disappeared? If it went over the windshield then the shooter was located above JFK?

So a bullet went into his back and disappeared and another went into his throat and disappeared? And these shooters were, again where?

Whenever the conspiracists come up with alternative explanations they fall completely apart. At least I'm not convinced of them and I'm such an easygoing fellow.

There's a clear line of sight and bullet path from behind the picket fence to JFK's throat exactly when Willis

took his photo at the sound of the 1st shot, Z-205. No windsheild is in the way.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205%20arrow.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205_1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 10, 2019, 09:07:16 PM
The photo corresponds to about Z-205 not the Z-170's.

Z205 shows her already turned to the right. By Z205, Mrs Kennedy had  been facing toward the right for about 30 frames.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 11, 2019, 01:12:36 AM
You been drinking?

So you can't tell us where the your imaginary frontal bullet ended up. Got it.

And how about naming that particular shooter, and show us where he shot from.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on January 12, 2019, 06:03:32 AM
I didn't pass through him at Z224. It passed through a frame or two before that.
So I take it that you do not subscribe to the so called "lapel flip" or "lapel bulge" theory that says that the SBT shot occurred at z224....
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 12, 2019, 07:46:08 AM
Yes; and where did the bullet come from? There's no hole in the windshield so it didn't go through there. Where did the sniper/shooter fire from? What location? Did the shot go over the windshield and then through his throat and then disappeared? If it went over the windshield then the shooter was located above JFK?

So a bullet went into his back and disappeared and another went into his throat and disappeared? And these shooters were, again where?

Whenever the conspiracists come up with alternative explanations they fall completely apart. At least I'm not convinced of them and I'm such an easygoing fellow.

It doesn't matter to this lot that a few pieces always go missing; in CT Buff 'We-Don't-Have to-Prove-Anything' Country, all evidence is either faked, planted or altered anyway.

Always an escape hatch nearby for this lot, at the ready for convenient pet-theory rescue.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on January 12, 2019, 08:02:48 AM
So I take it that you do not subscribe to the so called "lapel flip" or "lapel bulge" theory that says that the SBT shot occurred at z224....

In a Lattimer experiment , the jacket took about two frames to reach maximum bulge. Connally's jacket reaches maximum bulge by Z225 and maybe between Z224 and Z225.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Brian Roselle on January 16, 2019, 05:34:15 AM
Tim,

I don’t know exactly what a suit jacket would do, but from old Doc Edgerton high speed bullet impact photography that I have seen, I think non-friable objects like a jacket with lapel wouldn’t locally obtain the speed of the bullet that had just passed through it so it would make sense that with the lower resultant jacket fabric velocity it would have a maximum observable bulge-out not immediately, but shortly after a bullet passed through.

In this case a frame or two delay from a bullet penetration to maximum observable displacement extent may be reasonable.

If that’s the case then with a maximum coat bulge around z224, if caused from a bullet, the bullet would have struck a frame or two earlier near z222/z223.

Now this interests me for the following reason, and if you have a good resolution version of z-frames in this time period, I would like you to check and comment on the following.

In the past I had looked at Costella frames around this point, and saw the lapel flip that has been discussed at z224. I also saw at z222 a white spot showing on Connally’s jacket, on the front lower right side. The white spot was showing over the jacket, not in alignment with the white shirt so I dismissed it as a reflection off of the top edge of the door or parade bar or something.

I not long ago looked at MPI version of the frames enlarged, and now think the spot may be the white right shirt cuff of Connally showing and observable just above and behind the edge of the limo. When I look at a few frames later z228/229/230 the same spot appears and now seems to be more clearly recognizable as the white shirt cuff.

The significance here is that if this is the shirt cuff and possibly the wrist/hand just to its right, it disappears extremely rapidly between z222 and z223, as if it has been driven down out of sight by something. Coincidentally, the position of this spot appears near the chest below the right nipple area.

To my eyes, something on the film changed very rapidly here near z222/z223 just before the lapel flip is seen.  Is this something that has been discussed and explained away before?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on January 16, 2019, 06:07:02 PM
Connally held on to his Stetson all the way to Parkland.
Apparently, Snickers was along for the ride ::)
Quote
In an interview in 1966, Parkland Hospital witness O.P. Wright told author Thompson that the bullet he handled on 11/22/63 did not look like C.E. # 399.....What we are left with is the FBI having reported a solid chain of possession for #399 to the Warren Commission. But the links in the FBI’s chain appear to be anything but solid. Bardwell Odum, one of the key links, says he was never in the chain at all and the FBI’s own, suppressed records tend to back him up.
https://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm
 
 
 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 22, 2019, 03:05:10 AM
So you can't tell us where the your imaginary frontal bullet ended up. Got it.

And how about naming that particular shooter, and show us where he shot from.

"show us where he shot from."

From the picket fence. Exactly where the HSCA said a shot came from. When the first shot caused Willis to click the shutter on his camera 

and create the photo below there was an unobstructed line of sight, bullet path, to the front of JFK's throat. No windshield in the way.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205%20arrow.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205_1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: John Iacoletti on January 31, 2019, 08:44:48 PM
Connally held on to his Stetson all the way to Parkland.

Source?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on January 31, 2019, 09:13:03 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Q6JT9Rm/cartoon-library-section.png)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Gary Craig on January 31, 2019, 10:27:44 PM
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/cartoon-library-section2.png)
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 01, 2019, 12:15:16 AM
Source?

http://jfkassassination.net/nellie.txt

I said "all the way", when I should have said "on the way". Either way, Connally was still holding onto the hat after he had been hit.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 01, 2019, 10:11:09 PM
"show us where he shot from."

From the picket fence. Exactly where the HSCA said a shot came from. When the first shot caused Willis to click the shutter on his camera 

and create the photo below there was an unobstructed line of sight, bullet path, to the front of JFK's throat. No windshield in the way.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205%20arrow.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205_1.jpg)

No, I meant show us exactly where the bullet came from. And name your knoll shooter, and the people who saw anyone even aiming a weapon from anywhere other than the SN window.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 01, 2019, 10:20:39 PM
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/cartoon-library-section2.png)

A case could be for libel made against you for changing the intent of the cartoonist and defacing his work. I'm in the art business myself. Better remove it.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Andrew Mason on February 02, 2019, 01:09:50 AM
A case could be for libel made against you for changing the intent of the cartoonist and defacing his work. I'm in the art business myself. Better remove it.
It has nothing to do with libel.  Libel is publishing something that is defamatory.  Changing someone's cartoon caption is a copyright issue. But in this case, Gary's change is really just fair comment on the message that the cartoonist was making.  So he doesn't have to remove it (just in case you were serious!).
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jack Trojan on February 02, 2019, 01:11:11 AM
A case could be for libel made against you for changing the intent of the cartoonist and defacing his work. I'm in the art business myself. Better remove it.

I think you mean copyright infringement and that's only if he tried to profit from it. Otherwise, nothing libelous against the artist there, however, it should be fixed...

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/WCR.png)

So sue me. ;D
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 02, 2019, 01:53:46 AM
I think you mean copyright infringement and that's only if he tried to profit from it. Otherwise, nothing libelous against the artist there, however, it should be fixed...

(http://www.readclip.com/JFK/WCR.png)

So sue me. ;Do

I would if it was my work. You'd be misrepresenting my conclusions in this assassination. You should have simply answered by including your comment outside the confines of the drawing itself.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 02, 2019, 11:48:46 AM
  You'd be misreprenting my conclusions in this assassination.
Would be what? Misinterpreting ...misrepresenting.. mis-parenting? Oh well, your conclusions are wrong and case dismissed.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Bill Chapman on February 02, 2019, 07:30:58 PM
Would be what? Misinterpreting ...misrepresenting.. mis-parenting? Oh well, your conclusions are wrong and case dismissed.

Ah... yet another CT typo-hunter.
Strictly schoolyard mentality, you lot.

And since you've finally dismissed the case, can we now expect you to reveal the person(s), other than the shooter, who knew there was to be an attempt made on Kennedy that day?

Thanks so much, in advance...
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jack Trojan on February 02, 2019, 08:51:52 PM
Ah... yet another CT typo-hunter.
Strictly schoolyard mentality, you lot.

And since you've finally dismissed the case, can we now expect you to reveal the person(s), other than the shooter, who knew there was to be an attempt made on Kennedy that day?

Thanks so much, in advance...

All the conspirators, of course.

Johnson (+ his mistress + Wallace)
Hoover (+ his mastress + FBI henchmen)
Dulles (architect of the Big Event with axe to grind)
Angleton (co-opted Hoover with salacious photo and patsified Oswald as a singleton agent)
Hunt (confessed)
Fritz (took no notes, compromised the crime scene and delivered Oswald to Ruby)
Humes (autopsy fiasco)
Greer (slowed the limo to the TSP - Turkey Shoot Point)
Ruby (who did NOT whack Oswald to spare the Kennedy's a trial)
LHO's handlers (who sheep-dipped Oswald with significant contribution from the DPD who set him up with the BYPs holding the murder weapons and leaking THE infamous BYP then delivering him to Ruby, all in record time)
etc...

How many people were you looking for?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on February 02, 2019, 09:37:08 PM
All the conspirators, of course. How many people were you looking for?
Don't bother any more. The response will always be...'Proof'?...'Cite'?...'Evidence'?
 
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2019, 03:36:19 PM
http://jfkassassination.net/nellie.txt

I said "all the way", when I should have said "on the way". Either way, Connally was still holding onto the hat after he had been hit.

Is that the same Nellie who said that different bullets hit Kennedy and Connally?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 04, 2019, 09:26:20 PM
Is that the same Nellie who said that different bullets hit Kennedy and Connally?

I think so.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: John Iacoletti on February 04, 2019, 11:28:03 PM
I think so.

So Nellie was correct except when she wasn't?
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 05, 2019, 03:28:32 AM
So Nellie was correct except when she wasn't?

That is correct.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on February 05, 2019, 04:13:33 PM
That is correct.

A true Lone nutter response. She's only right when she agrees with my beliefs.
Title: Re: The Magic Bullet - Fact or Fiction?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on February 05, 2019, 10:57:43 PM
A true Lone nutter response. She's only right when she agrees with my beliefs.

Hi Ray,

How are things over there across the pond?

Nellie Connally testified that she heard only three shots and that there was less time between the first and the second than between the second and the third. Was she right?