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Author Topic: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory  (Read 1060 times)

Offline Zeon Mason

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A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« on: September 14, 2018, 03:46:03 AM »
The West elevator in the TSBD was the one which had a push button and could be  returned to the floor it left from by closing the gates. It would apparently automatically return to the floor according the BR Williams WC testimony:


Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand--
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.
Mr. BALL. How does the other one work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.



This leads me to a speculative alternate theory of how a gunman at the Southwest corner window could have escaped after firing the Z313 kill shot, gotten down and out of TSBD unseen, and the gun he used also not found.


Here is the sequence:


1. SW window 6th floor gunman runs along the open west aisle of the 6th floor, toward the West elevator, (100ft away) and at one of the windows on the WEST side of the building drops his rifle out that window, where it falls to the rooftop of the loading dock annex building, The shooter then reaches the West elevator approx. 12 sec posts shots, and takes the West elevator to the 1st floor, exits it by 45 sec post shots, then escapes out the TSBD by West side open rollup door by 55 sec post shots.

2. An accomplice on the roof, picks up the rifle as soon as it landed, at about 7 sec post shots, runs across the roof, over rear side and drops rifle to car trunk which is closed by the driver and the driver then drives car away from TSBD with the rifle as early as 20 sec posts shots. The accomplice climbs down from the annex roof by 20 sec post shots, walks away from the TSBD.


How is the West elevator used, 1st by the 6th floor SW window shooter, and then by Jack Dougherty, yet the elevator is not seen by Victoria Adams nor Sandra Styles starting down 4th floor staircase by 30 sec posts shot, nor seen by Dorothy Garner exiting the 4th floor office approx. 35 sec post shots?

Solution:

If the 6th floor  SW window gunman begins moving West elevator at 12 sec post shots from 6th floor, and can travel 1 floor every 5 secs, the elevator would be completely past the 4th floor landing by 27 secs post shots, and would reach the 1st floor easily by 45 sec post shots.

IF the gates of the West elevator were closed by the gunman at 45 sec post shots, then the West elevator auto returns itself to the 6th floor by 70 sec post shots. There it would be seen on by Truly looking up the elevator shaft when he and Baker reached the 1st floor elevator approximately 70 sec post shots. (Baker/Truly must have taken at least 70 sec to reach 1st floor elevator shaft, otherwise would have had LOS to Adams/Styles coming down last leg of 1s floor stair as B/T approached diagonally across the 1st floor.)

Baker/Truly take 5 secs to walk from east side 1st floor elevator, 10 secs to ascend 18 step staircase, 5 sec for Baker to walk over to 2nd flour lunchroom and thru the 2 doors, and then approx a 15 sec interval with Oswald in the lunchroom. So at least 30 seconds of time which is enough time for Jack Dougherty to have taken the West elevator down from 5th floor to the 1st floor after Truly had looked up the shaft at 70 sec post shots. The West elevator would have passed by the 2nd floor landing while Baker is IN the 2nd floor lunchroom and Truly is leaning  in thru the outer door. Thus neither Truly nor Baker had LOS to West elevator shaft at the time of the elevator passing the 2nd floor landing with JD on it, and both B/T being distracted and focused on Oswald.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 12:52:04 AM by Zeon Mason »

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A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« on: September 14, 2018, 03:46:03 AM »


Offline Colin Crow

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 06:40:45 AM »
Zeon,

what evidence was produced to prove that it was Dougherty who first moved the west elevator from the 5th floor to the 1st after the shots?

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 02:34:52 PM »
Sandra Styles said it was more like minutes, not seconds, after the last shot that Adams and her left the fourth-floor office. They went first to the passenger elevator.

Offline John Iacoletti

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 05:50:14 PM »
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Sandra Styles said it was more like minutes, not seconds, after the last shot that Adams and her left the fourth-floor office. They went first to the passenger elevator.

Yes, but the Stroud document says otherwise.

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 06:31:55 PM »
   "Mr. Bellin was questioning Miss Adams about whether or
    not she saw anyone as she was running down the stairs.
    Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning
    that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner)
    saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up."

The Stroud document doesn't directly state how soon after the last shot the two girls left the office nor how soon after the two left that Stroud saw Truly. Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth floor on their way down in the elevator. This could have been when Stroud saw the two together. She could have assumed they came up in the elevator.

From Ernest's 2011 Interview with Dorothy Ann Garner:
  • "I saw him [Truly]several times that day," she said,
    but I'm not sure when or where.
  • I remember I saw a policeman or police officers on
    the stairs, yes.
  • Did she remember seeing Roy Truly and a police
    officer come up the stairs together?
    "I could have," she answered, "but there was so much
    confusion. It was, after all, a few years ago!"
  • She did say, however, that the conversation
    [Stroud Document], which she admitted could
    even have been by telephone, was "brief."

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 06:31:55 PM »


Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2018, 12:51:17 AM »
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Zeon,

what evidence was produced to prove that it was Dougherty who first moved the west elevator from the 5th floor to the 1st after the shots?


As far as I know, Colin, its basically just Jack Dougherty. JD claimed to have spoken to Eddie Piper after using the West elevator to descend to the 1st floor, but there is no confirmation of this by Eddie Piper in any of his WC testimony.

Somehow the West elevator is not there on 5th floor when Baker/Truly get there from using staircase, so this leaves about 3 options:

1. Jack Dougherty did in fact take West elevator down right after Truly looked up the elevator shaft from 1st floor approx. 70 sec post shots. The West elevator was not seen by Dorothy Garner passing by the 4th floor because Garner may have been looking out a West window there by the staircase. The west elevator bypassed the 2nd floor landing while Baker is in the 2nd floor lunchroom with Oswald and Truly is looking in from the outer door.

2. Jack Dougherty or someone else, moved the West elevator from 5th floor to 6th floor at approx 75 sec post shots, and then it remained on the 6th floor until after Baker/Truly reached 5th floor and took the East elevator bypassing the 6th floor without stopping, because Baker was so anxious to get to the roof ASAP. The West elevator was not seen on the 6th floor by Baker/Truly because the East elevator had a solid back which blocks LOS.

3rd option is my 2nd gunman theory, that after a SW window gunman who fired the Z313 shot had dropped his 30.06 rilfe out a west window to an accomplice below on the roof of the loading dock, and used West elevator to get to 1st floor by 45 sec posts shots, the gates were closed and the West elevator returned itself automatically to the 6th floor. There it remained until after Baker/Truly used the East elevator bypassing it. THEN either Jack Doutherty took it down, or the SE window gunman took it down (or if JD is the SE gunman, took it down), to the 1st floor.


IF 3rd option, the West elevator with JD (or the SE SN window gunman) on it, reaches 1st floor approx 3 min post shots, so its there just before DPD Mooney and plainsclothes plus also V Adams return and the power then goes out as they take it to the 2nd floor.



In any of the above, Oswald was not one of the shooters on 6th floor and was in fact in the 2nd floor lunchroom from 12:15 pm to to 12:31:30 pm. This is my other theory concerning Mrs Reid having met Oswald NOT at 2 min post shots but actually at 60 sec post shot, and then Oswald had returned down the hallway after exitng office because he was only wearing his T shirt, and had to return to get his brown shirt and or jacket from the lunchroom. He went thru the inner lunchroom door when Baker reached the 2nd floor landing approx 80 sec post shots. The opening and closing of the inner door changed light intensity streaming thru both the 2x2 clear doo windows, and that is what caught Bakers eye and why he moved over to look thru the windows, saw Oswald moving away.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 01:02:55 AM by Zeon Mason »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2018, 01:32:14 AM »
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   "Mr. Bellin was questioning Miss Adams about whether or
    not she saw anyone as she was running down the stairs.
    Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning
    that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner)
    saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up."

The Stroud document doesn't directly state how soon after the last shot the two girls left the office nor how soon after the two left that Stroud saw Truly. Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth floor on their way down in the elevator. This could have been when Stroud saw the two together. She could have assumed they came up in the elevator.

From Ernest's 2011 Interview with Dorothy Ann Garner:
  • "I saw him [Truly]several times that day," she said,
    but I'm not sure when or where.
  • I remember I saw a policeman or police officers on
    the stairs, yes.
  • Did she remember seeing Roy Truly and a police
    officer come up the stairs together?
    "I could have," she answered, "but there was so much
    confusion. It was, after all, a few years ago!"
  • She did say, however, that the conversation
    [Stroud Document], which she admitted could
    even have been by telephone, was "brief."

To avoid having met Baker/Truly, Adams/Style either had to have reached the 1st floor about 60 secs post shots, or A/S have to wait until after Baker/Truly have passed by the 4th floor approx. 2 min 40 sec post shots. If waiting until after B/T pass 4th floor, then A/S would not have reached 1st floor until approx. 3 min 40 sec post shots.

 there is one part of V.Adams WC testimony which is difficult to reconcile with the 60 sec post shots scenario because  Adams apparently saw Billy Lovelady and Bill Shellely by the rear elevators.

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.




Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2018, 10:36:11 PM »
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This leads me to a speculative alternate theory of how a gunman at the Southwest corner window could have escaped after firing the Z313 kill shot...
That shot was fired from the grassy knoll...back and to the left.
Quote
Miss ADAMS -... and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above.
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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2018, 10:36:11 PM »


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2018, 11:59:42 PM »
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To avoid having met Baker/Truly, Adams/Style either had to have reached the 1st floor about 60 secs post shots, or A/S have to wait until after Baker/Truly have passed by the 4th floor approx. 2 min 40 sec post shots. If waiting until after B/T pass 4th floor, then A/S would not have reached 1st floor until approx. 3 min 40 sec post shots.

 there is one part of V.Adams WC testimony which is difficult to reconcile with the 60 sec post shots scenario because  Adams apparently saw Billy Lovelady and Bill Shellely by the rear elevators.

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Neither lovelady nor Shelley have a definitive recollection of seeing Victoria on the first floor. Neither mention Sandra who was with Victoria.

Victoria apparently spoke to both men, neither of which remembers, yet they remember conversing with Gloria.

Mr Belin had the perfect opportunity to sort the Adams/Truly/Baker/lovelady/shelley "paradox" out - spend 5 minutes talking to Sandra Styles back in 1964.

Mr. BELIN. When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?
Miss ADAMS. While I was on the way out.
Mr. BELIN. Was anyone going along with you?
Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; Sandra Styles.


Online Tony Fratini

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2018, 12:46:22 AM »
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   "Mr. Bellin was questioning Miss Adams about whether or
    not she saw anyone as she was running down the stairs.
    Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning
    that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner)
    saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up."

The Stroud document doesn't directly state how soon after the last shot the two girls left the office nor how soon after the two left that Stroud saw Truly. Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth floor on their way down in the elevator. This could have been when Stroud saw the two together. She could have assumed they came up in the elevator.

From Ernest's 2011 Interview with Dorothy Ann Garner:
  • "I saw him [Truly]several times that day," she said,
    but I'm not sure when or where.
  • I remember I saw a policeman or police officers on
    the stairs, yes.
  • Did she remember seeing Roy Truly and a police
    officer come up the stairs together?
    "I could have," she answered, "but there was so much
    confusion. It was, after all, a few years ago!"
  • She did say, however, that the conversation
    [Stroud Document], which she admitted could
    even have been by telephone, was "brief."

Both Truly and Baker were together twice on the Fourth floor - when they initially went UP to the fifth floor and when they were both in the Eastern Elevator which stopped on the Fourth floor.

Mr. TRULY. Then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor. I don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. But I do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far.

Mr. BAKER. The next thing that I noticed was Inspector Sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector.
Mr. DULLES. City of Dallas Police?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir. And he was on, I really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing I saw as we descended how this freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped for a moment and I spoke to him and I told him that I had been to the roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody being up there, and then we started on down.

Mr. BELIN. Did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him?
Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him?
Mr. BAKER. No, sir; not at that time. It seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor.

Dorothy would of had to have been directly in front of the Eastern Elevator to have seen Truly and Baker since they remained on the elevator.

Why didn't Mr Belin simply interview Dorothy Garner to sort it out?

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Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2018, 12:46:22 AM »