JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Zeon Mason on September 14, 2018, 03:46:03 AM

Title: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 14, 2018, 03:46:03 AM
The West elevator in the TSBD was the one which had a push button and could be  returned to the floor it left from by closing the gates. It would apparently automatically return to the floor according the BR Williams WC testimony:


Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand--
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.
Mr. BALL. How does the other one work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.



This leads me to a speculative alternate theory of how a gunman at the Southwest corner window could have escaped after firing the Z313 kill shot, gotten down and out of TSBD unseen, and the gun he used also not found.


Here is the sequence:


1. SW window 6th floor gunman runs along the open west aisle of the 6th floor, toward the West elevator, (100ft away) and at one of the windows on the WEST side of the building drops his rifle out that window, where it falls to the rooftop of the loading dock annex building, The shooter then reaches the West elevator approx. 12 sec posts shots, and takes the West elevator to the 1st floor, exits it by 45 sec post shots, then escapes out the TSBD by West side open rollup door by 55 sec post shots.

2. An accomplice on the roof, picks up the rifle as soon as it landed, at about 7 sec post shots, runs across the roof, over rear side and drops rifle to car trunk which is closed by the driver and the driver then drives car away from TSBD with the rifle as early as 20 sec posts shots. The accomplice climbs down from the annex roof by 20 sec post shots, walks away from the TSBD.


How is the West elevator used, 1st by the 6th floor SW window shooter, and then by Jack Dougherty, yet the elevator is not seen by Victoria Adams nor Sandra Styles starting down 4th floor staircase by 30 sec posts shot, nor seen by Dorothy Garner exiting the 4th floor office approx. 35 sec post shots?

Solution:

If the 6th floor  SW window gunman begins moving West elevator at 12 sec post shots from 6th floor, and can travel 1 floor every 5 secs, the elevator would be completely past the 4th floor landing by 27 secs post shots, and would reach the 1st floor easily by 45 sec post shots.

IF the gates of the West elevator were closed by the gunman at 45 sec post shots, then the West elevator auto returns itself to the 6th floor by 70 sec post shots. There it would be seen on by Truly looking up the elevator shaft when he and Baker reached the 1st floor elevator approximately 70 sec post shots. (Baker/Truly must have taken at least 70 sec to reach 1st floor elevator shaft, otherwise would have had LOS to Adams/Styles coming down last leg of 1s floor stair as B/T approached diagonally across the 1st floor.)

Baker/Truly take 5 secs to walk from east side 1st floor elevator, 10 secs to ascend 18 step staircase, 5 sec for Baker to walk over to 2nd flour lunchroom and thru the 2 doors, and then approx a 15 sec interval with Oswald in the lunchroom. So at least 30 seconds of time which is enough time for Jack Dougherty to have taken the West elevator down from 5th floor to the 1st floor after Truly had looked up the shaft at 70 sec post shots. The West elevator would have passed by the 2nd floor landing while Baker is IN the 2nd floor lunchroom and Truly is leaning  in thru the outer door. Thus neither Truly nor Baker had LOS to West elevator shaft at the time of the elevator passing the 2nd floor landing with JD on it, and both B/T being distracted and focused on Oswald.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 06:40:45 AM
Zeon,

what evidence was produced to prove that it was Dougherty who first moved the west elevator from the 5th floor to the 1st after the shots?
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 14, 2018, 02:34:52 PM
Sandra Styles said it was more like minutes, not seconds, after the last shot that Adams and her left the fourth-floor office. They went first to the passenger elevator.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 05:50:14 PM
Quote from: Jerry Organ on September 14, 2018, 02:34:52 PM
Sandra Styles said it was more like minutes, not seconds, after the last shot that Adams and her left the fourth-floor office. They went first to the passenger elevator.

Yes, but the Stroud document says otherwise.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 14, 2018, 06:31:55 PM
   "Mr. Bellin was questioning Miss Adams about whether or
    not she saw anyone as she was running down the stairs.
    Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning
    that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner)
    saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up."

The Stroud document doesn't directly state how soon after the last shot the two girls left the office nor how soon after the two left that Stroud saw Truly. Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth floor on their way down in the elevator. This could have been when Stroud saw the two together. She could have assumed they came up in the elevator.

From Ernest's 2011 Interview with Dorothy Ann Garner:
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 15, 2018, 12:51:17 AM
Quote from: Colin Crow on September 14, 2018, 06:40:45 AM
Zeon,

what evidence was produced to prove that it was Dougherty who first moved the west elevator from the 5th floor to the 1st after the shots?


As far as I know, Colin, its basically just Jack Dougherty. JD claimed to have spoken to Eddie Piper after using the West elevator to descend to the 1st floor, but there is no confirmation of this by Eddie Piper in any of his WC testimony.

Somehow the West elevator is not there on 5th floor when Baker/Truly get there from using staircase, so this leaves about 3 options:

1. Jack Dougherty did in fact take West elevator down right after Truly looked up the elevator shaft from 1st floor approx. 70 sec post shots. The West elevator was not seen by Dorothy Garner passing by the 4th floor because Garner may have been looking out a West window there by the staircase. The west elevator bypassed the 2nd floor landing while Baker is in the 2nd floor lunchroom with Oswald and Truly is looking in from the outer door.

2. Jack Dougherty or someone else, moved the West elevator from 5th floor to 6th floor at approx 75 sec post shots, and then it remained on the 6th floor until after Baker/Truly reached 5th floor and took the East elevator bypassing the 6th floor without stopping, because Baker was so anxious to get to the roof ASAP. The West elevator was not seen on the 6th floor by Baker/Truly because the East elevator had a solid back which blocks LOS.

3rd option is my 2nd gunman theory, that after a SW window gunman who fired the Z313 shot had dropped his 30.06 rilfe out a west window to an accomplice below on the roof of the loading dock, and used West elevator to get to 1st floor by 45 sec posts shots, the gates were closed and the West elevator returned itself automatically to the 6th floor. There it remained until after Baker/Truly used the East elevator bypassing it. THEN either Jack Doutherty took it down, or the SE window gunman took it down (or if JD is the SE gunman, took it down), to the 1st floor.


IF 3rd option, the West elevator with JD (or the SE SN window gunman) on it, reaches 1st floor approx 3 min post shots, so its there just before DPD Mooney and plainsclothes plus also V Adams return and the power then goes out as they take it to the 2nd floor.



In any of the above, Oswald was not one of the shooters on 6th floor and was in fact in the 2nd floor lunchroom from 12:15 pm to to 12:31:30 pm. This is my other theory concerning Mrs Reid having met Oswald NOT at 2 min post shots but actually at 60 sec post shot, and then Oswald had returned down the hallway after exitng office because he was only wearing his T shirt, and had to return to get his brown shirt and or jacket from the lunchroom. He went thru the inner lunchroom door when Baker reached the 2nd floor landing approx 80 sec post shots. The opening and closing of the inner door changed light intensity streaming thru both the 2x2 clear doo windows, and that is what caught Bakers eye and why he moved over to look thru the windows, saw Oswald moving away.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 15, 2018, 01:32:14 AM
Quote from: Jerry Organ on September 14, 2018, 06:31:55 PM
   "Mr. Bellin was questioning Miss Adams about whether or
    not she saw anyone as she was running down the stairs.
    Miss Garner, Miss Adams' supervisor, stated this morning
    that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner)
    saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up."

The Stroud document doesn't directly state how soon after the last shot the two girls left the office nor how soon after the two left that Stroud saw Truly. Truly and Baker stopped on the fourth floor on their way down in the elevator. This could have been when Stroud saw the two together. She could have assumed they came up in the elevator.

From Ernest's 2011 Interview with Dorothy Ann Garner:
  • "I saw him [Truly]several times that day," she said,
    but I'm not sure when or where.
  • I remember I saw a policeman or police officers on
    the stairs, yes.
  • Did she remember seeing Roy Truly and a police
    officer come up the stairs together?
    "I could have," she answered, "but there was so much
    confusion. It was, after all, a few years ago!"
  • She did say, however, that the conversation
    [Stroud Document], which she admitted could
    even have been by telephone, was "brief."

To avoid having met Baker/Truly, Adams/Style either had to have reached the 1st floor about 60 secs post shots, or A/S have to wait until after Baker/Truly have passed by the 4th floor approx. 2 min 40 sec post shots. If waiting until after B/T pass 4th floor, then A/S would not have reached 1st floor until approx. 3 min 40 sec post shots.

 there is one part of V.Adams WC testimony which is difficult to reconcile with the 60 sec post shots scenario because  Adams apparently saw Billy Lovelady and Bill Shellely by the rear elevators.

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?
Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.
Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.
Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?
Miss ADAMS - That's correct.



Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2018, 10:36:11 PM
Quote from: Zeon Mason on September 14, 2018, 03:46:03 AM
 
This leads me to a speculative alternate theory of how a gunman at the Southwest corner window could have escaped after firing the Z313 kill shot...
That shot was fired from the grassy knoll...back and to the left.
Quote
Miss ADAMS -... and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.
It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm

 
 
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 08:31:06 AM
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2018, 10:36:11 PM
That shot was fired from the grassy knoll...back and to the left.

Non sequitur.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2018, 04:20:35 AM
Quote from: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 08:31:06 AM
Non sequitur.
Well...if you are saying (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/Off_Topic.gif) OK ...so what's new about that on this forum? Go look at what happened to some of my threads. (https://gagadaily.com/uploads/emoticons/smh.gif)
I still say...back and to the left.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 18, 2018, 07:58:18 AM
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on September 16, 2018, 10:36:11 PM
That shot was fired from the grassy knoll...back and to the left.http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/adams_v.htm

JFK Assassination "Back and to the Left" Myth

Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 18, 2018, 09:06:12 AM
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2018, 04:20:35 AM
Well...if you are saying (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/Off_Topic.gif) OK ...so what's new about that on this forum? Go look at what happened to some of my threads. (https://gagadaily.com/uploads/emoticons/smh.gif)
I still say...back and to the left.

That is not what non sequiter means. It means that one part of a statement doesn't follow from the other. Back and to the left, even if true, does not mean a shot from the Grassy Knoll.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2018, 06:46:48 PM
 
Quote from: Bill Chapman on September 18, 2018, 07:58:18 AM
JFK Assassination "Back and to the Left" Myth
 
Please Lord...not the Bugalo Man again along with media slime Dan Rather :'(
What really happened?-----JFK shot in the back of the head from some location while being shot simultaneously from behind the fence and bushes. Explains everything  Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
No one can prove that didn't happen or did because Johnson ordered the body Shainghai'd back to DC in violation of  the law.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 18, 2018, 08:12:16 PM
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2018, 07:42:31 PM
Actually, it was Dan Rather who lied to the public stating in 1963 that when he viewed the Zapruder film he saw the president merely "slump forward".

He said Kennedy went 'forward with considerable violence'.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2018, 10:48:59 PM
Quote from: Nicholas Turner on September 18, 2018, 08:12:16 PM
He said Kennedy went 'forward with considerable violence'.
OK he did say 'violently forward' ...I fail to see that but then maybe he saw a different film ::)
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 19, 2018, 09:02:30 AM
And the reports of a Secret Service Agent having been killed.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 19, 2018, 09:05:08 AM
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on September 18, 2018, 10:48:59 PM
OK he did say 'violently forward' ...I fail to see that but then maybe he saw a different film ::)

For accuracy he said 'forward with considerable violence' not 'violently forward'. This isn't correct and hard to understand why he got it wrong but he said he saw it twice only at full speed in a difficult situation and didn't make any notes so just got it wrong.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 19, 2018, 01:37:38 PM
(http://i68.tinypic.com/102qpnk.jpg)  (http://i68.tinypic.com/mmz61.jpg)  (http://i63.tinypic.com/fz2bg0.jpg)  (http://i61.tinypic.com/dypqir.jpg)
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 19, 2018, 03:29:32 PM
Quote from: Nicholas Turner on September 19, 2018, 09:05:08 AM
For accuracy he said 'forward with considerable violence' not 'violently forward'. This isn't correct and hard to understand why he got it wrong but he said he saw it twice only at full speed in a difficult situation and didn't make any notes so just got it wrong.
BS: BS: BS: See the video again @ 2:12
Not 'hard to understand at all'. Rather was told the public would not be seeing that film.
For his co-operation with the cover up..Liar Rather was made heir apparent to the news anchor spot occupied by Walter Cronkite [another Time Life stooge]
Time Life..stooge company paid oodles for exclusive rights. A bootleg copy was Shanghai-ed  by Mr Josiah Thompson and viewed for the first time by the American public at the Jim Garrison inquiry.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 19, 2018, 07:11:33 PM
Quote from: Jerry Freeman on September 19, 2018, 03:29:32 PM
BS: BS: BS: See the video again @ 2:12

You're right! Here's to accuracy. ;D. No need for the BS flag waving though.

Quote
Not 'hard to understand at all'. Rather was told the public would not be seeing that film.
For his co-operation with the cover up..Liar Rather was made heir apparent to the news anchor spot occupied by Walter Cronkite [another Time Life stooge]
Time Life..stooge company paid oodles for exclusive rights. A bootleg copy was Shanghai-ed  by Mr Josiah Thompson and viewed for the first time by the American public at the Jim Garrison inquiry.

One way to see it. Any evidence?
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 20, 2018, 03:19:05 AM
Quote from: Nicholas Turner on September 19, 2018, 07:11:33 PM
  No need for the BS flag waving though. One way to see it. Any evidence?
The flag was directed [in spirit] at Rather.
Evidence lies manifest..it happened just as described.
 
 
 
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Anthony Clayden on September 20, 2018, 03:22:56 AM
Four women together on the 4th floor together, Adams and Styles were followed by Garner but Dorman would have seen A&S and then Garner. If you wanted to know what was happening then ask Dorman, but they didn't.

As for the lift, if the shooter used it before JED, then they have to evade JED. So JED and BRW don't see each other and JED doesn't see or hear the shooter use the lift.

Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 22, 2018, 04:19:11 AM
I agree with Tony that its not likely that Shelley and Lovelady could have been standing by the rear elevators at 60 sec posts shots, because both of them are seen outside TSBD in the Couch film moving away from the TSBD at approx.  25 sec post shots when Baker is seen running towards the entrance. It would have been about 35 sec post shots then, when Baker and Truly would have been together on the front steps, and that's when Lovelady would have seen them. Lovelady and Shelly then continued walking even further  away from TSBD:

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.
Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---
Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.


75 yds is 225 ft, so at 35 sec post shots after having seen Baker and Truly at the front entrance, Billy Lovelady travels to some point 225 ft away from the west side entrance of TSBD and then must travel back again to have entered TSBD again. So 550 ft at 5 ft/sec pace would require an additional 100 secs added which therefore puts it about 2 min post shots as the earliest that Lovelady and Shelly could have returned into TSBD by the west side loading dock ramp.




The Jack Dougherty dilemma: When did Jack take the West elevator down or if he did not, who did?

If its JD, using the west elevator by himself, there are only 2 options:

1.West elevator taken down about 5 sec post shots, reached 1st floor approx 30 sec post shots, and then elevator returns itself to stop at 5th floor by 70 sec posts shots. JD walked across 1st floor at least about 85 ft away from west elevator to talk with Eddie
Piper standing near a window at the front of the 1st floor TSBD.


2. West elevator taken down about 5 seconds after Truly/Baker left elevator shaft to start up the immediate rear staircase approx 75 sec post shots. The West elevator started therefore from 5th floor at 75 sec post shots, went past the 2nd floor landing at approx 90 sec post shots while Baker is in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and Truly looking from outer door. Baker//Truly are unaware elevator went past being distracted with Oswald.



If a 6th floor shooter from SW window used the West elevator begining 10 sec post shots, and the elevator travels 1 floor/5 sec speed, the West elevator would reach 1st foor by 35 sec post shots. It then would have returned itself, upon gates being closed by the shooter,  to the 6th floor by 70 sec post shots, where it would be seen by Truly looking up the shaft, and guestimating it to be on 5th or 6th floor. The West elevator could have remained on 6th floor when Truly.Baker reach 5th floor, or a 2nd shooter on 6th floor could have taken it down beginning 75 sec post shots, passing by 2nd floor landing 90 sec posts shots, as in the JD scenario option.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Colin Crow on September 22, 2018, 03:12:39 PM
The west elevator could be "called" by use of a button but required the gates to be closed. The east elevator could only be operated manually by someone in the lift and could not be "called". It too would not move unless the gates were closed.
Title: Re: A SW 6th Floor TSBD Gunman Escape Theory
Post by: Zeon Mason on September 22, 2018, 10:18:13 PM
Mr. BALL. Which elevator did you take?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I took the east elevator down.
Mr. BALL. Is that the one that is worked with a hand--
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. That is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal.
Mr. BALL. How does the other one work?
Mr. WILLIAMS. The other one worked by push button. You have two gates to pull. That is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. The east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating.


Maybe I have misinterpreted, but it sounds like Bonnie Ray Williams says the West elevator "will come back up by itself" when the gates are closed. IDK if the button pushed means a button on the elevator itself has to be continually pushed or if it means a button on each floor that's on the elevator shaft can be pushed and the elevator will then "move itself" to that floor.

If BRW means that someone on another floor can call the West elevator, if the gates are closed,  by pushing a button on the side of the elevator shaft on that floor,  then my theory is still plausible given that Jack Dougherty or someone else could have called the West elevator back up to the 5th floor by pushing a button on that floor, after a 6th floor shooter had taken it down at 10 sec post shots, reaching 1st floor aprox as fast as 35 sec post shots, if the West elevator can travel as fast a 1 floor/5 secs.