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Author Topic: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?  (Read 4323 times)

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2019, 04:30:28 PM »
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Consider this view....
Those people shielding their eyes from the sun-
How could a gunman make any kind of an accurate shot facing into such glare?



 



The side of the Depository was in partial shade at 12:30, meaning the sun was relatively south, not southwest.



Sun wasn't shining along the length of Elm Street where the shooting occurred.



Window pane and maybe some shade would have been between the sun and SN shooter.



Myers 3D view from the Sniper's Nest showing the shadow fall on the limousine.

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2019, 04:30:28 PM »

Online Anthony Clayden

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2019, 10:03:02 PM »
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Have you ever considered the possibility that Greer slowed down because he thought the shots were coming from in front of him?

A moving target is almost always harder to hit then a nearly stationary one. Even if the thought the shoots came from the front the obvious action is to accelerate and put in a mild osclilating swerve as you do so, he had the whole road carriage to manevure in.

He was definitely old and slow in reaction time, he was probably tired from working so many shifts on the tour, lastly there is reasonable chance given the habits of the era,  that he was still feeling the effects of alcohol in his system.

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2019, 06:02:24 AM »
Not sure if the hard hat man is "disinterested"

It is a curious phenomenon of so FEW persons seemingly not aware at the time of this photo by Altgens at frame Z225, that TWO LOUD shots have been fired already, 1 supposedly earlier than Z223, which could be anywhere between Z170 to up to Z205 by Willis photo reaction to that sound, and the 2nd shot supposedly at Z223.





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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #32 on: May 13, 2019, 06:02:24 AM »

Offline Joe Mannix

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #33 on: May 13, 2019, 02:32:09 PM »
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Have you ever considered the possibility that Greer slowed down because he thought the shots were coming from in front of him?

Or to allow SS agents climb on to car?

Offline Jake Maxwell

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2019, 02:14:25 AM »
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Or to allow SS agents climb on to car?

I think Greer stated in one interview that he slowed thinking he had a flat tire (or backfire... I think)... and I think I recall that he also apologized to Jackie for some reason...
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 02:18:31 AM by Jake Maxwell »

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2019, 02:14:25 AM »

Offline Zeon Mason

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2019, 08:02:18 AM »
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Or to allow SS agents climb on to car?

Apparently either about 95% of the crowd and all the SS agents, including Clint Hill, either did not hear the 1st shot fired much earlier than Z223 or they thought it was a firecracker and did not react to that by turning their heads.

No SS agents other than Hickey can be seen in Z film having turned heads to Face the TSBD, from beginning of Z film up to approx.. Z207 frame, when they are lost out of camera view.

 Governor Connally, stated that the 1st loud noise he heard, he DID recognize as a rifle shot. That's not a shot at Z170, because Connally did not attempt to turn around to look at JFK until after Z223 shot.

Charles Brehm, a WW2 combat veteran, standing right near the curb of elm st as JFK limo went past, recognized ALL 3 noises he heard, as rifle shots. If Brehm has heard a 1st shot at Z170, then a 2nd shot at Z223 and is also seeing the President slump, WHY is this WW2 combat veteran not reacting, other than seeming to keep clapping his hands? 2 other men in background behind Brehm seem also not to be aware 2 rifle shots have been fired, as the JFK limo goes past Brehm.

SS Agent George Hickey, the rear guard SS agent in followup car:

The motorcade then left the airport and proceeded along the parade route. Just prior to the shooting the Presidential car turned left at the intersection and started down an incline toward an underpass followed by 679X. After a very short distance I heard a loud report which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. Nothing caught my attention except people shouting and cheering. A disturbance in 679X caused me to look forward toward the President's car. Perhaps 2 or 3 seconds elapsed from the time I looked to the rear and then looked at the President. He was slumped forward and to his left, and was straightening up to an almost erect sitting position as I turned and looked. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots and that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid succession that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again. - Possibly four or five seconds elapsed from the time of the first report and the last.

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Why at Z255 frame the Altgens 6 photo, are MOST of the crowd acting as though they have NOT heard 2 rifles shots?  thus only about 5% have turned their heads? This is the point in time where Clint Hill has just heard what he thought was the FIRST shot, which he thought was a firecracker. He has turned his head, and he now sees JFK has slumped, an Hill is just about to step off the followup car.

Add to this, that the closest ear witness, Harold Norman, has consistently in every one of his recorded interviews, replicated the spacing of the shots in about 4 seconds, it would appear that the answer for Greer's seeming lack of reaction for 4.8 seconds is because there WAS NOT A 4,8 second period of "silence".

If Norman is correct, and Hill's recollection if correct, and Governor Connally is correct, 3 shots were fired, in a span of time of about 4.8 seconds, beginning with 1at shot at Z223, then a missed shot following that, around Z285, then the head shot, Z313, about 1 sec after that.

Add that at 2/3rd of earwitness heard the spacing 1....2..3 and many in a space of 5 seconds or less, just as Harold Norman, one in particular, Lee Bowers , the hand rapping on the desk all 3 shots less than 5 seconds, the last too rapping, in arppox 1 sec apart. Coincidence?

 IF these witnesses are correct, and all 3 shots were fired in span of 5 seconds or less, THEN Greer IS reacting approximately as would be expected. He heard the 1st shot at Z223, and like everyone else, thought it was a firecracker. . Greer looked back, just as JFK was slumping. Greer missed seeing JFK actually hit. He only saw a JFK still upright mostly, but with his head lowered.  Greer took his foot off the accelerator here, not sure what had happened. Then in comes a shot at Z285. Greer looks forward, sees a crack in the windshield. He looks back again, at JFK, and the 3rd shot, the head shot, is fired,  1 sec later at Z313.  Greer now hits the accelerator pedal, reacting, and almost oblivious to Clint Hill about to jump on the limo.

 

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2019, 02:49:51 PM »
     
Insets: Ready - Hickey - Gov. Connally - Mrs. Kennedy (all turn from their left to their right)

Far right: Rosemary Willis, the little girl running, said she stopped when she heard the first shot. She begins slowing in the Z160s.

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2019, 02:49:51 PM »

Online Royell Storing

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2019, 03:58:37 PM »
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Insets: Ready - Hickey - Gov. Connally - Mrs. Kennedy (all turn from their left to their right)

Far right: Rosemary Willis, the little girl running, said she stopped when she heard the first shot. She begins slowing in the Z160s.

     Many questions surround SA Hickey including WHY & WHAT is causing him to be Seated at a Much Higher Level than everyone else inside the Queen Mary? He also was at this elevated seating position as the Queen Mary came down Houston St and he was Not sitting atop the back seat/trunk. Hickey's elevated position places his head Above the windshield sun visors which are in an UP position = higher than the front windshield. If the Queen Mary were a hard top car, Hickey's head would be Higher than the top of the vehicle. Another point of reference is the SS Agents shoulders Standing on top of the running board to Hickey's immediate left. Hickey's head is at about the same level as these agents shoulders = Extremely High vs everyone seated inside the vehicle. Hickey's elevated position would have made it extremely awkward/difficult for him to then bend all the way down to the floorboard of the Queen Mary and pick up the Locked-N-Loaded AR-15 Rifle which was positioned there inside the Queen Mary by the SS. Hickey then needing to Quickly straighten back up/Stand Up inside the confines of the vehicle while clutching the Locked-And-Loaded AR-15 Rifle would have likewise been an extremely Awkward maneuver being simultaneously attempted while under enemy fire. The AR-15 possibly having been discharged during Hickey going through all of this is very possible. Also, the inexperience of SA Hickey can Not be Overstated. Though trained as all SS Agents are, Hickey was normally assigned to Wash-N-Wax /"Detail" the Queen Mary and the JFK Limo. He would not be confused with James Bond.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2019, 04:11:01 PM by Royell Storing »

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2019, 03:58:37 PM »

Online Jerry Freeman

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2019, 07:01:11 PM »
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  The side of the Depository was in partial shade at 12:30, meaning the sun was relatively south, not southwest. Sun wasn't shining along the length of Elm Street where the shooting occurred.
So... people are shielding their eyes for no reason at all. 

Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2019, 10:21:26 PM »
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So... people are shielding their eyes for no reason at all.



Seems most of the eye-shielding people are looking towards the south. Nearly all those in the Altgens photo looking to the southwest, as the Sniper's Nest gunman would have been, are facing away from the sun and not shielding their eyes.

So when you wrote "How could a gunman make any kind of an accurate shot facing into such glare?" you either didn't think about the angle of the sun and it's relationship to the limousine position on Elm, or you think a gunman was aiming at the motorcade down Houston Street or towards the reflecting pool.

A teachable moment if you want to grasp it.  ::)

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Re: Who is this fellow... and why does he look away from the president?
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2019, 10:21:26 PM »

 

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