Users Currently Browsing This Topic:
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Author Topic: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?  (Read 1199 times)

Offline James Hackerott

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« on: July 26, 2018, 11:38:52 PM »

I spent some time this week fitting 3D model renderings to two frames of Wiegman's separate views of the TSBD doorway. The first frame is near the beginning of his film, designated W1 here, and the second 4-5 seconds later  (W2) when he was much closer to the doorway. Recent debates in the Prayer Woman thread (Discussion  board) concern positioning Mr Billy Lovelady. From W1 to W2 Lovelady drops one step. But, was he on the landing and dropped one step to step 6, or was he initially on step 6 and dropped to step 5? Inquiring minds want to know, as it influences interpretations of features, such as the apparent height, for the infamous Prayer Person. The renderings show Lovelady about midway in the doorway with a red/white checkered shirt. The Wiegman doorway scenes suffer from deep shadow in the background. See General Discussion for a current post on this topic. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

There exist various animations made as blinking overlays from the respective film frames. Those animations are derived from photos like W1 and W2 and show the downward step of Lovelady, along with arm movements of the Prayer Person. Those overlays come from different camera positions, such that some scaling, frame rotation, and possibly aspect ratio adjustments are used to make selected features overlap. The purpose of my study is to match 3D models to their reference photos and thus allow positioning of the Lovelady mannequin in each 3D rendering. Once this is accomplished blinking overlays could be made from any point of view, without any distortions.

These rendered overlays use a Lovelady of height 5' 8.5, and fit nicely in both W1 and W2. Fitting the mannequins to the photos provides 3D coordinates that can be used for other views of our choice. Both Prayer-Man and Prayer-Woman are positioned for a gender-neutral display.

Conclusion #1
The determined coordinates reveal that first frame shows Lovelady on the landing and one step lower on step 6 in the later second photograph.
-----
Below are four views of an identical scene. The top, from left to right, show the two Wiegman views W1 and W2. The bottom shows a view from near the Altgens6 camera at Zapruder frame 255. Lower right shows the doorway from an elevated viewpoint. The scenes show Lovelady on the landing in the process of dropping one step. The Wiegman film provides the first and last frame with intermediate frames computed by the software.

Conclusion #2
The well known Altgens6 photo was snapped between W1 and W2. A comparison of the four views shows that Lovelady is not on the landing and must be on step 6 in the Altgens6 photo. On step 6 he is correctly positioned with 5' 6 Mr. Billy Shelley behind and to his left in the Altgens photo. The Lovelady model on the landing must lean forward about 4 degrees to avoid the lintel's shadow. Sunlight hits the bottom of Shelley's face. Buell Frazier is the tall guy in the background.

-----
The final animation shows Lovelady lowering himself from the landing to the step, again with computer generated frames showing motion. The left side uses a special technique in the software (POV-Ray) called radiosity. This is useful for simulating objects in shadow as the only light source comes from objects nearby, rather than the normal, overall lighting as on the right.


JFK Assassination Forum

Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« on: July 26, 2018, 11:38:52 PM »


Offline Barry Pollard

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2018, 12:03:57 AM »
Appreciate the work put into this James.

Two quick observations.

Alan has noted that BL looks to be two steps lower than Frazier and I just wrote that I agreed with him. At the same time, Wiegman suggests he went down only one step.
Also Ruth Dean, after something I saw recently I now think she's west of the railing, I said as much but no comment.
Before I show it to you, could you even imagine it to be true and wouldn't that have to effect your/our Lovelady position as it did to me?

Offline James Hackerott

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2018, 12:16:28 AM »

Thanks Barry,

Trust me, I've had Ruth Dean East, West and on the railing in my many, many trials. I finally found the East side is a better fit. Also, I don't remember which frame but It looks like Ruth Dean does not seem to have anyone in between her and the camera....and I tried to find the railing, without any luck. It would be great if our super photo workers could find that railing.

The two steps, I believe soundly, does not happen. I'm skeptical of that type of overlay animation that was created from two non-congruent images. They are good for general viewing, but I'm not to sure about quantitative use.

Offline Barry Pollard

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 364
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2018, 12:42:32 AM »
Here we go James and you're right it's very tight.



With the Wiegman two steps thing, you're advising caution because of the movement of the camera between frames?

Offline Chris Davidson

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 01:09:14 AM »
I've already posted this gif (just removed the latter frame), and added James' animation scaled to 140% of its original size:
The frames I use did not come from Groden's DVD.
They came from the DVD "Death in Dealy Plaza", better quality in my opinion.
Irregardless, they are always scaled.




 

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2018, 01:09:14 AM »


Offline James Hackerott

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2018, 02:42:07 AM »
Chris,
Thank you for the GIF overlay. Are you using this to demonstrate the two steps Barry asked about? Do I remember that it was overlays of Wiegman and Darnell that gave the two step look? I would very much like to make renderings of the Wiegman and Darnell frames at any size you would like to play around with if you like. Let me know.

I do agree about using the best frames available. I did look at DIDP before, and checked again just now. I did not use those Wiegman frames because they are cropped versions of Groden's. I don't know but Groden's could be cropped some too. Anyway, for the type of photo matching I'm using it's necessary to have uncropped frames to be able to determine camera position, among other things.



Offline James Hackerott

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2018, 02:51:45 AM »
Barry,
Yes, movement of the camera will make overlays impossible to be 100% accurate. Maybe you can post the two step video here if you like and I will study it.

 

Offline Alan Ford

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2018, 01:13:17 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've already posted this gif (just removed the latter frame), and added James' animation scaled to 140% of its original size:
The frames I use did not come from Groden's DVD.
They came from the DVD "Death in Dealy Plaza", better quality in my opinion.
Irregardless, they are always scaled.




 

Thanks for this, Chris (and of course to James too).

The Frazier model is in completely the wrong position here.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2018, 01:13:17 PM »


Offline James Hackerott

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2018, 09:02:45 PM »
Reply to Alan
Thanks Alan,
You may be right abut Frazier not where I show him. I can't find him (with any confidence) in my enhancement. Do you have a better location for him?




Offline Alan Ford

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 408
Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2018, 09:51:44 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Reply to Alan
Thanks Alan,
You may be right abut Frazier not where I show him. I can't find him (with any confidence) in my enhancement. Do you have a better location for him?




Here he is, James. I've put a small dot on his left cheek. His distinctive hair contour is visible.

The height discrepancy between Frazier and Lovelady---as in the Wiegman-Darnell blend that Chris prepared---is simply too great for Lovelady to be on the landing also.

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Where was Lovelady Standing in Wiegman and Altgens6?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2018, 09:51:44 PM »