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Author Topic: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion?--A Fun Update!  (Read 5317 times)

Offline John Mytton

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 11:00:01 PM »
Ya would think those eighteen or so people standing on the overpass might have seen people down there by the fence.



Yep, the only unaccounted person seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza was a slender white male seen on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository.



JohnM

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 11:00:01 PM »


Online Gary Craig

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2018, 11:17:29 PM »

Offline John Mytton

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 11:25:37 PM »





Thanks Gary, but as far as we know the case that the man was carrying could have contained curtain rods, so my original statement still stands, "the only unaccounted person seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza was a slender white male seen on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository."

Btw a man who is 6 foot 7 will always stand out and is an odd choice for a rifle courier where secrecy is paramount.



JohnM

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2018, 11:25:37 PM »


Offline Jerry Organ

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2018, 12:27:24 AM »
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf
DECKER EXHIBIT No. 5323

-snip-

"As I heard the first retort, I looked back over my shoulder and saw
what appeared to me to be a spray of water come out of
the rear seat of the President's car . At this same
moment, Mr . Lawson said, "Let's get out of here and
get to the nearest hospital". When I heard the shots
I noted motorcycle officers coming off their cycles
and running up the embankment on Dealey Plaza."


-snip-




Sounds like Officer Hargis. Not sure of his exact route, but I have no reason to believe he got beyond the retaining wall.

Quote

Before me,the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November 23, 1963
personally appeared Hugh William Betzner, Jr . Address 5922 Velasco, Dallas
Age 22


-snip-

"Then the President's car sped on
under the underpass . Police and a lot of spectators started running up
the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood . I
assumed that that was where the shot was fired from at that time . I kept
watching the crowd."


-snip-


"I was looking around the fence as the rumor had spread that
that was where the shot had come from."

"rumor had spread"

Quote

Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22 day of November 22, l963
personally appeared S . M. Holland Address 1119 Lucille, Irvin


-snip-

"I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of
smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first
shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw . I immediately ran around
to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running
from there . But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind
the arcade through the trees."


-snip-


Holland said in this same affidavit that "Everything is spinning in my head." He later testified about the "puff of smoke", saying: "It could have been the third or fourth, but there were definitely four reports."He also said it was  "like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out" which " wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots."

Holland also said he first ran to behind the Pergola and that an officer (whom I believe to be Hargis ("one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand") who went as far as the retaining wall) ran to "Where I saw the puff of smoke."

Only later on did Holland relocate the "puff of smoke" to the fence corner.

Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 05:58:39 AM »
Dan--

Thanks for reading and you sensible commentary. Of course, what you suggest makes sense--if the diversion was poorly timed and too early---it would alert the Secret Service and others.

I posit the diversionist was told something along the lines of, "Wait until you hear gunshots. Then, do your diversion." After the first gunshot, the Secret  Service is alerted anyway (well, they should have been).

So, I think a diversion plan holds water, if the diversionist is told to hold his shot-and-smoke show until after the first "real" shot.

BTW, this diversion action may explain why so many witnesses describe the first shot as not as loud as subsequent shots.
 

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 05:58:39 AM »


Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 06:03:19 AM »
Dan--

Thanks for reading and you sensible commentary. Of course, what you suggest makes sense--if the diversion was poorly timed and too early---it would alert the Secret Service and others.

I posit the diversionist was told something along the lines of, "Wait until you hear gunshots. Then, do your diversion." After the first gunshot, the Secret  Service is alerted anyway (well, they should have been).

So, I think a diversion plan holds water, if the diversionist is told to hold his shot-and-smoke show until after the first "real" shot.

BTW, this diversion action may explain why so many witnesses describe the first shot as not as loud as subsequent shots.

Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 07:24:53 AM »
John---thanks for your comment.

In some ways, that is my point.

The Grassy Knoll diversionist selected a spot hidden from other bystanders, and was armed with a snub-nose .38. The diversionist may not have behind the stockade fence, but rather alongside the pergola-colonnade in the bushes. He may have even fired from a crouched position (naturally enough, not wanting return fire from the secret Service or to be seen), with his revolver pointed skyward but over the motorcade.

I too wonder why no one saw a long-rifle anywhere near the Grassy knoll, with the exception of one dubious witness. I conclude the gunshot noises and smoke were made with a snub-nose or improvised fiorecracker.

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 07:24:53 AM »


Offline Steve Thomas

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2018, 09:00:11 AM »
Benjamin,

Without addressing your basic premise, I wouldn't give too much weight to the "hysterical woman" in Joe M. Smith's testimony.
I'm not sure whose affidavit Gary Craig was referencing, but he quotes someone as saying in their affidavit that, "Some stopped to talk to people standing there as there were a number of women who were hysterical.
The woman Smith encountered was just one of them.

It's really helpful to pull up CE 354 (as the WC staff did when questioning Joe Smith) and have it side by side when you go through his testimony.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=973&tab=page

The way I am reading it, he encountered the woman very near the Depository, and then proceeded down the Elm St. extension. He encountered the "Secret Service Agent" in, or very near the parking lot that runs behind, or on the north side of the concrete structure some people refer to as the pergola.

I don't know enough about rifles vs. revolvers and the smell they produce to comment intelligently on your basic premise.

Steve Thomas

Offline Benjamin Cole

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2018, 10:48:04 AM »
Craig: Great list.

To me, even more telling than gunshot noise is the sight and smell of gunsmoke.

One could posit that sound bounces, there were echos, and other noises that day in Dealey Plaza. Personally, I think people accurately heard shots from the Grassy Knoll-colonnade area, but a weak case can be made witnesses were mistaken.   

But no one seriously posits that Dealey Plaza witnesses were smelling gunsmoke from the TSBD, 80 yards downwind. The LN crowd stumbles on this, and the WC just ignored it. The HSCA, more or less, concluded that shot was a miss.

You miss a limo from 75 feet?

Some witnesses recall the sight of gunsmoke, but say it was in the trees etc., so some witnesses could miss that.

To me the basic premise survives: It strains credulity that there were gunshots and copious gunsmoke on the Grassy Knoll just as the President was being assassinated, and yet no shot from the front-right hit even the limousine. 

A intentional diversion fits the facts.

Add on: Seems also a real assassin would want a secluded place he could Larry Grayson Doppleganger Bart Kamp out for a while (even 10 minutes), and level a long-rifle. Oswald (if it was Oswald) had that, and so might assassins in the Dal-Tex building.

Who would bring a rifle alongside a parade route for the President? If even one witness spotted such a individual even three minute before the shooting, the gig would likely be up. 

But a snub-nose .38 is perfect as a diversion. 

The "hysterical woman": Sure there are photos of women crying that day, and even lots of guys, naturally enough. But one summoned Patrolman Smith, and made clear gunman were in the bushes, somewhere around the pergola-colonnade. He took her seriously, and began searching that area.

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2018, 10:48:04 AM »


Online Dan DAlimonte

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2018, 02:16:16 PM »
Dan--

Thanks for reading and you sensible commentary. Of course, what you suggest makes sense--if the diversion was poorly timed and too early---it would alert the Secret Service and others.

I posit the diversionist was told something along the lines of, "Wait until you hear gunshots. Then, do your diversion." After the first gunshot, the Secret  Service is alerted anyway (well, they should have been).

So, I think a diversion plan holds water, if the diversionist is told to hold his shot-and-smoke show until after the first "real" shot.

BTW, this diversion action may explain why so many witnesses describe the first shot as not as loud as subsequent shots.

Hey, Ben.  Despite the few knuckleheads who frequent this place, I do hope you decide to stay.
You (like most of us) do seem to want to discuss this case in a sane and rational manner.
At any rate.here's my take on this.  To me, there's two types of diversion tactics which a group could use
to commit murder.  The first is like what happened to Malcolm X.   He had started to or was about to start  a speech to a seated crowd in a hall of some sort when a fake fight broke out.  As everyone's attention was drawn to that fake fight a gunman approached Malcolm and shot him dead and then he (like everyone else, innocent or guilty alike) bolted.  This type of diversion was meant to increase the odds of committing the crime. 
The second type of diversion, as you suggest, is not to increase the chances of successfully committing
the crime but was designed to allow the real assassin(s) to flee and there is a difference.  Again, I really don't think the group would have spent so much time planning to fake shots when they could have had real shots aimed to kill

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Re: What If Grassy Knoll Sounds And Smoke Were "Only" A Diversion
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2018, 02:16:16 PM »