JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Benjamin Cole on January 13, 2018, 05:31:25 AM
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Okay, here goes. Nothing "new" here, except I researched smoky ammo and weapons. I accept G. Robert Blakey's statement that if there was a shot from the Grassy Knoll, if missed. I ponder the hysterical woman met by Patrolman Smith. I think I draw a scenario more defensible that "nothing happened on the Grassy Knoll," or "there was a gunshot that struck the President."
The Grassy Knoll Events As Diversion
Like many armchair Kennedy Assassination buffs old enough to be alive on Nov. 22, 1963, I have dutifully read the literature and followed the blogs for decades, never quite willing to close the books on murder, especially this one.
So much impressive research has been done, including even those efforts that perhaps led to a dead-end. I never blame researchers?or even Warren Commission supporters?for groping in the dark; I blame a government that saw fit to extinguish light for generations, and let leads grow stone-cold in the long night.
And that includes one tantalizing lead provided in Dealey Plaza moments after the shooting by the ?hysterical woman.? But I am getting ahead of myself; more on the hysterical woman later, but keep her in mind as we explore an idea oddly unexplored in the vast JFK literature: The actions on the Grassy Knoll that fateful day in Dallas were but a diversion.
Gunsmoke On the Plaza
The 1974 book Murder From Within by Fred Newcombe may come to an unproved conclusion that Lyndon Johnson organized his predecessor?s murder, but like so many earnest researchers Newcombe waded through the documents and testimony, and registered clues that were totally missed or ignored by the Warren Commission, and even effectively overlooked by the House Select Committee on Assassinations.
Give Newcombe credit; he noticed that at least nine witnesses?and many experienced witnesses no less?smelled the distinctive, telltale scent of gunsmoke in Dealey Plaza immediately after the assassination, including most famously Texas Senator Ralph Yarborough, a World War II veteran. Riding in the motorcade in a car behind the president?s, Yarborough said smelled gunpowder on Elm Street and that it clung to his car throughout the race to Parkland Hospital.
Perhaps engaging in a little journalistic license, a newspaper reported that ?seconds later the [presidential] cavalcade was gone [from Dealey Plaza]. The area still reeked with the smell of gunpowder.?
Later, the Aussie detective Colin McLaren would say he counted 22 witnesses at street level who smelled gunsmoke that day in Dealey Plaza, for his regrettable video that concludes a Secret Service man accidentally shot President Kennedy. But the headcount was a worthy yeoman duty.
JFK assassination researchers, of course, are more than aware that railroad workers on the Triple Overpass (most notably S.M. Holland), and Lee Bowers in the Union Terminal Co.?s two-story observation tower in the railroad parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll, said they saw a puff of gunsmoke concurrent to gunshots, and then smoke lingering in the trees atop the Grassy Knoll shortly thereafter.
The ?sniper?s nest? in the TSBD was about 80 yards from the Grassy Knoll, and downwind that day.
Patrolman Joe M. Smith
But perhaps Dallas Police Department Patrolman Joe M. Smith is the most interesting and best witness, ?best? as he can be assumed to be very familiar with vehicular exhaust and gunsmoke.
In a Dec. 9, 1963 interview with the FBI, Smith, a Korean war vet and eight-year Dallas cop, said he smelled gunsmoke in the Union Terminal railroad yard parking lot, after the assassination.
And Smith is most ?interesting? for the hysterical woman he met en route to an encounter with what was likely a Secret Service impostor.
After gunshots rang out in Dealey Plaza, Smith told the Warren Commission that, ?[T]his woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, ?They are shooting the President from the bushes.? So I immediately proceeded up here.?
By ?here? Patrolman Smith meant the bushes around the concrete concave-shaped pergola structure, also sometimes called a monumental colonnade, between the TSBD and the Grassy Knoll.
Smith?s testimony to Warren Commission has nearly become canon in the assassination community, recounted many times, and always intriguing.
As Smith further explained, ?I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the [railroad] parking lot.?
Smith then elaborates, ?There was some deputy sheriff with me [possibly Deputy Seymour Weitzman], and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
[Warren Commission staffer]Mr. LIEBELER: Did you accost this man?
Mr. SMITH: Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.?
Smith said he had doubts about the man actually being Secret Service: ?It didn?t ring true. He looked like an auto mechanic. He had on a sports shirt, but he had dirty fingernails. I should have checked the man closer, but he had produced correct identification.?
As conspiracy researchers and buffs well know, there were no Secret Service men on duty anywhere in Dallas, except in the motorcade. Dallas Deputy Sheriff Seymour Weitzman made a similar statement to the Warren Commission about a Secret Service man in the railroad yard, and later told an interviewer that he also saw identification.
The Warren Commission?s oceanic indifference to actual and potential witnesses is well-documented, and evidently no effort was made to find either the fake Secret Service man nor ?the hysterical woman.?
And she is worth pondering.
The Hysterical Woman
There are two main possibilities defining the hysterical woman who approached Patrolman Smith with word about gunmen in bushes that day in Dealey Plaza:
1) She was an earnest witness. If this is the case, it is an acute loss that she was not detained and interviewed. For starters, the first question would be: ?Which bushes?? Clues such as footprints or shreds of cloth on bush branches might be looked for. She seems to have had a more definite idea of the origins of noise and gunsmoke than most witnesses that day, most of whom could only say in general they heard shots or saw or smelled smoke in the area of the Grassy Knoll.
2) She was part of a diversion. This is an interesting conjecture, since her efforts, along with the noise, sight and smell of gunsmoke, worked so effectively to divert police resources to the Grassy Knoll and railroad yards, and away from shots fired at the president from well behind his limousine. If the hysterical woman was an earnest witness, why did she never come forward and direct authorities to the bushes she had in mind?
The Diversion
Indeed, the copious amount of gunsmoke released at the precise time the president was being assassinated in Dealey Plaza raises the question of intentional diversion.
Sometimes Warren Commission supporters hazard that modern guns do release smoke, and so the whole gunsmoke in Dealey Plaza story is meaningless, but that is a patently incorrect and, well, a diversion.
Modern gunpowder and weapons only release less smoke than old-fashioned black powder, and even today gun enthusiasts say cheap ammo is smoky.
Nevertheless, a single shot from a rifle with good-quality 1960s-era ammo would likely not leave Dealey Plaza ?reeking? of gunsmoke, or leave Yarborough?s car impregnated with odor.
So?
A Handgun And Smokey Ammo?
As it turns out, handguns are generally louder and smokier than same-caliber rifles, or long guns.
The longer barrel of a rifle suppresses noise, muzzle flash and smoke, in comparison to a handgun.
Moreover, a ?snub-nose? handgun is louder yet, releasing the most muzzle flash and smoke.
Interestingly, the snub-nose .38 Smith & Wesson was a common gun in the 1960s, readily available and nearly standard issue to anyone who carried a concealed weapon.
In addition, the .38 is a favorite among ?hand-loaders,? or gun enthusiasts who load their own cartridges, and select their own gunpowders?including varieties of smoky ?black powder.? The lubing on lead bullets, as opposed to copper-jacketed or steel-jacketed bullets, is also known to increase smokiness.
All that said, an individual could have hidden in the bushes by the Dealey Plaxa colonnade-pergola on Nov. 22, and fired one or two hand-loaded shots from a .38 snubnose not at the motorcade, but well higher over the motorcade, indeed high enough to clear Dealey Plaza. The result would be the sound of gunshots and plenty of gunsmoke pouring toward Elm Street.
Improvised Explosive Device?
Modern-day commercial firecrackers use ?flash powder,? a different formulation than gunpowder, and which smells different after combustion.
But historically, firecrackers were made with gunpowder, and amateurs can easily fabricate same, and still do. A firecracker is little more than thick paper wound tightly around explosive powder, plus a fuse.
This raises the possibility that someone fabricated one or two large firecrackers with ample amounts of gunpowder?more gunpowder than would be used in just two bullet cartridges?which they ignited as the presidential motorcade passed. This would account for Dealey Plaza ?reeking? of gunsmoke after the motorcade passed.
Many Dealey Plaza witnesses said the first shot sounded different from the following two shots, and many say the first shot sounded like a firecracker. Maybe it was.
In summary, creating explosions and copious amounts of gunsmoke in Dealey Plaza was easily done 1963, with materials readily available at the time.
Worth noting is that 21 law enforcement officers that day in Dealey Plaza thought the sound of gunshots had come from the Grassy Knoll.
G. Robert Blakey And The Missed Shot
G. Robert Blakey, chief counsel to the 1977-8 HSCA and a conspiracy proponent, has stated that if there was a shot at President Kennedy from the Grassy Knoll on Nov. 22, then it missed.
This is a possibility, but seems unlikely. Missing a head shot from 75 feet is one thing, but missing the whole stretch limousine?
There is no one who says the presidential limo was struck on the side, or on the capacious rear hood, or the front hood. The front seat occupants were uninjured.
No one says there was a bullet striking the grass on the south side of Elm St. and no witnesses were struck.
If it is accepted that the head shot on President Kennedy was from behind, then a logical deduction is no one shot at the president from the Grassy Knoll. But there could have been shots from the Grassy Knoll, but not aimed at Kennedy.
The Diversion
Taking the above as premise, the obvious hypothesis is someone concealed themselves in the bushes near the Grassy Knoll or adjacent colonnade on Nov. 22, and then as the Presidential motorcade passed, fired an easily concealed snub-nose .38, armed with hand-loaded and intentionally smoky gunpowder and bullets. They fired well over the presidential motorcade, indeed intending to miss all bystanders and nearby buildings. Their role was diversion from the actual assassins, who were behind the president by 80 yards.
Or, one or two black-powder loaded firecrackers would have also sufficed.
This individual then carefully retreated to the railroad yard, not running, and perhaps feigning that he was a law-enforcement officer searching for perpetrators. There, the diversionist was accosted by Patrolman Smith, but he flashed his phony Secret Service identification. Eventually, the suspect melted into the commotion, and was never seen again.
Yes, ?only? a diversion on the Grassy Knoll. And a successful one.
But even a diversion means a conspiracy.
Conclusion
I did not devise the ?Grassy Knoll as a Diversion? scenario merely as a debating platform. I come to this scenario by deduction, and after accepting Blakey's conclusion that no one shot the President from the Grassy Knoll.
Nevertheless, there is nothing in the Warren Commission, or in the HSCA reports, or in books authored by Gerald Posner, Bill O?Reilly or Vincent Bugliosi that can refute or rebut the ?Grassy Knoll as a Diversion? hypothesis.
The Lone Nut crowd can offer authoritative (if debated) medical forensics on the head shot?just one and from behind, for example?and they can justifiably recount the many clues pointing to Lee Harvey Oswald?s guilt and mental condition. They can chose to ignore links between Oswald and the CIA, or between Jack Ruby and the Mob, which are not conclusive on their own. The testimony about the rapidity of gunshots that day in Dealey Plaza is inconsistent.
But the indisputable facts remain that at the exact time President Kennedy was being shot, experienced witnesses thought there was the sound of gunfire from the Grassy Knoll; there was the heavy odor of ignited gunpowder; there was visible gunsmoke; and within moments there was a suspect flashing phony Secret Service identification in the railroad yards.
And also a hysterical woman telling Patrolman Smith that somebody was shooting at President Kennedy ?from the bushes.?
If there was no Grassy Knoll gunman on Nov. 22, then what remains is likely to have been an intentional diversion.
The Fun Update!
Okay, in scrolling around the web, I came across this little nugget:
The morning of Nov. 23 a paper sack was found at the corner of Ross and Lamar in Dallas, which is about five blocks from Dealey Plaza. And inside the sack was a snub-nose .38 Smith & Wesson, precisely the type of weapon I have suggested would be perfect for staging a diversion in the area of the Grassy Knoll-Pergola at the time of the assassination.
Now, of course, at this late date it is impossible to divine much about the snub-nose revolver, which may have been tossed aside after a routine thug-land crime. The FBI has not been forthcoming with paperwork on the snub-nose, which they took into possession, after the DPD found it.
Still, how often are revolvers found inside paper bags on the street? Even in Texas? If a thug wanted to dispose of the weapon to avoid tracing, would not he toss it into a dumpster or pond?
This suggests someone had to dispose of the weapon hurriedly. Did my proposed diversion perp see others being detained by the DPD, and decide to toss his weapon ASAP?
Final oddity: The cylinder of the found snub-nose, serial #893265, was stamped with the word "England." The gun-blogs say that means the revolver in question was manufactured and exported to Britain during WWII, re-imported to the US often in bulk, and then cut down to snub-nose length, often re-chambered to .38 specials.
Another cheap imported weapon ordered through a magazine ad?
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Tom-
Thanks for reading and commenting!
Well, I think the Grassy Knoll smoke and gunshot show was a diversion, but perhaps not from the TSBD. As many have speculated, perhaps there were assassins in the Dal-Tex building.
The purpose of the diversion was to help the assassins escape.
In fact, the diversion worked well. Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry's first words after the gunshots were to get someone up to the Triple Overpass, and of course most police officers went to the Grassy Knoll area first.
But even if Oswald was the lone assassin firing at the president, if there were a Grassy Knoll diversion, then there was a conspiracy.
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Holland went from claiming one "shot" ("firecracker, or something") from the knoll area in 1964 to claiming in 1968 that he heard three shots from the knoll.
He also went from saying he first ran to behind the "arcade" (pergola) to saying he first ran to the fence corner.
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Holland went from claiming one "shot" ("firecracker, or something") from the knoll area in 1964 to claiming in 1968 that he heard three shots from the knoll.
He also went from saying he first ran to behind the "arcade" (pergola) to saying he first ran to the fence corner.
From Holland's first day affidavit.
"and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over and I looked toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there.
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Hey, Benjamin. There has been several diversion fake gunfire or test shots or shots intended
to miss theories presented here over the years and they all have a basic flaw. If the main intent
was to shoot and kill. Any type of these - shots - (esp, the first) may have forced a duck and cover
maneuver by the occupants of the limo or a reaction from the SS. I don't think it would have been
worth the risk. If, however, you're proposing a middle diversion then that means the direction of the
first real shot could have been pointed out by people in the crowd anyway.
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/CancellareUnger.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/bwerstohygood.jpg)
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/grodendcrop.jpg)
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/CancellareUnger.jpg)
Wouldn't surprise me that some of those ran there because the motorcade sirens could still be heard in that direction. Robert MacNeil was a NBC reporter who left a press bus that was in the motorcade and ran westward along Elm, initially drawn there by the Newmans on the grass. In the picture, Newman is the man standing on the bridge structure in the suit looking back over his left shoulder. He said he ran to there only because he saw others running there; he had no firsthand reason for ending up there.
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TESTIMONY OF (some of the) EYE-WITNESSES WHO THOUGHT SHOTS CAME FROM OTHER THAN TSBD
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44
1. Danny Garcia Arces - Shots came from railroad track yards.
2. Mrs. Donald Sam Baker - Shots came from railroad yards;not possible to come from the TSBD.
3. Mrs. A. G.(Jane)Berry- Thought shots came from west of her position.
4. O. V. Campbell - Thought shots came from railroad yard to west of the TSBD.
5. Mrs. Charles Thomas (Avery) Davis - Thought shots came from triple underpass.
6. Mrs. John T. (Elsie) Dorman) - She was on the 4th floor of TSBD and thought shots came from Records Building.
7. Mr. and Mrs. Jack Franzen - Thought shots came from area adjacent to TSBD.
8. Buell Wesley Frazier - Thought shots came from railroad overpass.
9. Dorthy Ann Garner - Thought shots came from west of TSBD (she was on 4th floor or TSBD)
10. Bobby W. Hargis - Believes shot came from right front (grassy knoll area) - from overpass
11. Mrs. John Hawkins - Thought shots came from railroad yards adjacent to TSBD.
12. Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill - Thought shots were coming from the knoll, just west of the TSBD.
13. Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes - Thought shots came from crowd.
14. Mrs. Yola D. Hopson - Did not think the sound (of the shots) came from the TSBD.
15. Emmet Joseph Hudson - Shots came from behind and above him; from rear, high. (He was on steps leading up knoll)
16. Mrs. George Andrew Kounas - Thought shots came from the west.
17. Secret Service Agent Paul E. Landis Jr. - 1st shot came from behind and over right shoulder; 2nd shot came from right front and hit President's head.
18. Billy Nolan Lovelady - Thought shots came from the knoll of from across the street.
19. Judith L. McCully - From right side of arcade building.
20. Austin Lawerence Miller - Shots came from his left (he was standing on the triple underpass).
21. A. J. Millican - Shots came from the pergola.
22. Joe R. Molina - Shots came from west side (he was on steps of TSBD.
23. Thomas J. Murphy - Shots came from spot just west of TSBD.
24. Mrs. P. E. Newman - Shots came from her right (west). She was halfway from TSBD to Stemmons Freeway sign.
25. William E Newman, Jr. - Shots came from "garden" directly behind Newman (he was standing at east end of pergola)
26. Mrs. William V. Parker - First shot came from pergola.
27. J. C. Price - Assumed shots from Triple Underpass.
28. Frank E. Reilly - Shots came from trees at west end of pergola on north side of Elm. (He was standing on Triple Underpass).
29. Mrs. A. L. Rowland - Shots came from railroad yard.
30. W. H. (Bill) Shelly - Shots came from west (he was on TSBD steps)
31. Police Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. - Shots came from railroad yard or grassy knoll area.
32. Officer Joe Marshall Smith - Thought shots came from Elm St.extension, bushes of the overpass.
33. Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels - Shots came from knoll;'top of terrace to my right.
34. James Thomas Tague - Shots came from bushes at pergola.
35. Roy S. Truly - Shots came from west of TSBD.
36. Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford - Shots came from railroad yard.
37. County Surveyor Robert M. West - Shots came from northeast quadrant of Dealy Plaza.
38. Lupe Whitaker - Shots came from west of TSBD.
39. Otis Neville Williams - Came from direction of Triple Underpass.
40. Steven F. Wilson - Shots came from west end of building or pergola; not above.
(He was on 3rd floor of TSBD)
41. Mary Elizabeth Woodward - Possibly came from overpass.
42. Abraham Zapruder - Shots came from in back of him.
43. Deputy Sheriff Harold Elkins
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http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf
DECKER EXHIBIT No. 5323
-snip-
"As I heard the first retort, I looked back over my shoulder and saw
what appeared to me to be a spray of water come out of
the rear seat of the President's car . At this same
moment, Mr . Lawson said, "Let's get out of here and
get to the nearest hospital". When I heard the shots
I noted motorcycle officers coming off their cycles
and running up the embankment on Dealey Plaza."
-snip-
--------------------------
Before me,the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November 23, 1963
personally appeared Hugh William Betzner, Jr . Address 5922 Velasco, Dallas
Age 22
-snip-
"Then the President's car sped on
under the underpass . Police and a lot of spectators started running up
the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood . I
assumed that that was where the shot was fired from at that time . I kept
watching the crowd."
-snip-
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Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22 day of November 22, l963
personally appeared S . M. Holland Address 1119 Lucille, Irvin
-snip-
"I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of
smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first
shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw . I immediately ran around
to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running
from there . But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind
the arcade through the trees."
-snip-
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Before me, the undersigned authority. on this the 22nd day of November 23, 1963
personally appeared William Eugene Newman
-snip-
"Then the car sped away and
everybody in that area had run upon top of that little mound . I thought the
shots had come from the garden directly behind me, that was on an elevation
from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward
the Texas School Book Depository . I looked back in the vacinity of the Garden."
-snip-
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Before me, the undersigned authority. on this the 22nd day of November 1963
petsonally appeared Mr J.C. Price Address 9602 Astor, Dallas
"This day at about 1235 PM I was on the roof of the Termaniel Annex Bldg on the
NE Corner when the presidential Motorcade came down Main to Houston, North on
Houston and then West on Elm. The cars had proceeded West on Elm and was
just a short distance from the Tripple underpass, when I saw Gov Connelly
slump over . I did not see the president as his car had gotten out of my
view under the underpass . There was a volley of shots, I think five and then
much later, maybe as much as five minutes later another one . I saw one man
run towards the passenger cars on the railroad siding after the volley of shots.
This man had a white dress shirt, no tie and kahki colored trousers . His hair
appeared to be long and dark and his agility running could be about 25 yrs of
age. He had something in his hand."
-snip-
----------------------------------------
Before me. the undersigned Authority, on this the 23rd day of November 1963
personally appeared Malcolm Summers.
"Yesterday, November 22, 1963, I was standing on the terrace of the
small park on Elm Street to watch the President's motorcade . The
President's car had just come up in front of me when I heard a shot
and aaw the President slump down in the car and beard Mrs . Kennedy
say, "Oh, no" ., then a second shot and then I hit the ground as I
realized these were shots . Then all of the people started running
up the terrace away from the President's car and I got up and started
running also, not realizing what had happened . In just a few moments
the President's car sped off and everybody was just running around
towards the railroad tracks and I knew that they had somebody trapped
up there."
-snip-
--------------------------------
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION . REPORT
Name of Complainant
PRESIDENT JOHN F . KENNEDY
ASSASSINATION
-snip-
"I ran around the Corner and directly across the street across the Dealy
Plaza to the Elm street side of the triple underpass . As we were
running across the street, we could see the presidential car pulling away
under the underpass and we continued on to the immediate area. Some stopped
to talk to people standing there as there were a number of women who
were hysterical. We could not get any information except that the
President had been shot, Several of the other officers in the group ran
on into the freight yards."
-snip-
----------------------------
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
Officer A . D. McCurley, Deputy Sheriff, Dallas County Sheriff's Office .
Ralph Walters
"I heard a retort and immediately recognized it as the sound of a rifle. I started running around the corner where I knew the President's car should be and in a matter of a few seconds heard a second shot and then a third shot, I, along with other officers who had been standing near me, all started running and I rushed towards the park and saw people running towards the railroad yards beyond Elm street..."
-snip-
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf
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Ya would think those eighteen or so people standing on the overpass might have seen people down there by the fence.
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Ya would think those eighteen or so people standing on the overpass might have seen people down there by the fence.
Yep, the only unaccounted person seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza was a slender white male seen on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
JohnM
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/mancarryingguncase%20001.jpg)
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(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/mancarryingguncase%20001.jpg)
Thanks Gary, but as far as we know the case that the man was carrying could have contained curtain rods, so my original statement still stands, "the only unaccounted person seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza was a slender white male seen on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository."
Btw a man who is 6 foot 7 will always stand out and is an odd choice for a rifle courier where secrecy is paramount.
JohnM
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http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf (http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf)
DECKER EXHIBIT No. 5323
-snip-
"As I heard the first retort, I looked back over my shoulder and saw
what appeared to me to be a spray of water come out of
the rear seat of the President's car . At this same
moment, Mr . Lawson said, "Let's get out of here and
get to the nearest hospital". When I heard the shots
I noted motorcycle officers coming off their cycles
and running up the embankment on Dealey Plaza."
-snip-
(https://sites.google.com/site/jfkforum/misc/maps/witness/hargis-knoll-path.jpg)
Sounds like Officer Hargis. Not sure of his exact route, but I have no reason to believe he got beyond the retaining wall.
Before me,the undersigned authority, on this the 22nd day of November 23, 1963
personally appeared Hugh William Betzner, Jr . Address 5922 Velasco, Dallas
Age 22
-snip-
"Then the President's car sped on
under the underpass . Police and a lot of spectators started running up
the hill on the opposite side of the street from me to a fence of wood . I
assumed that that was where the shot was fired from at that time . I kept
watching the crowd."
-snip-
"I was looking around the fence as the rumor had spread that
that was where the shot had come from."
"rumor had spread"
Before me, the undersigned authority, on this the 22 day of November 22, l963
personally appeared S . M. Holland Address 1119 Lucille, Irvin
-snip-
"I looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of
smoke come from the trees and I heard three more shots after the first
shot but that was the only puff of smoke I saw . I immediately ran around
to where I could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running
from there . But the puff of smoke I saw definitely came from behind
the arcade through the trees."
-snip-
Holland said in this same affidavit that "Everything is spinning in my head." He later testified about the "puff of smoke", saying: "It could have been the third or fourth, but there were definitely four reports."He also said it was "like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out" which " wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots."
Holland also said he first ran to behind the Pergola and that an officer (whom I believe to be Hargis ("one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand") who went as far as the retaining wall) ran to "Where I saw the puff of smoke."
Only later on did Holland relocate the "puff of smoke" to the fence corner.
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Dan--
Thanks for reading and you sensible commentary. Of course, what you suggest makes sense--if the diversion was poorly timed and too early---it would alert the Secret Service and others.
I posit the diversionist was told something along the lines of, "Wait until you hear gunshots. Then, do your diversion." After the first gunshot, the Secret Service is alerted anyway (well, they should have been).
So, I think a diversion plan holds water, if the diversionist is told to hold his shot-and-smoke show until after the first "real" shot.
BTW, this diversion action may explain why so many witnesses describe the first shot as not as loud as subsequent shots.
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Dan--
Thanks for reading and you sensible commentary. Of course, what you suggest makes sense--if the diversion was poorly timed and too early---it would alert the Secret Service and others.
I posit the diversionist was told something along the lines of, "Wait until you hear gunshots. Then, do your diversion." After the first gunshot, the Secret Service is alerted anyway (well, they should have been).
So, I think a diversion plan holds water, if the diversionist is told to hold his shot-and-smoke show until after the first "real" shot.
BTW, this diversion action may explain why so many witnesses describe the first shot as not as loud as subsequent shots.
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John---thanks for your comment.
In some ways, that is my point.
The Grassy Knoll diversionist selected a spot hidden from other bystanders, and was armed with a snub-nose .38. The diversionist may not have behind the stockade fence, but rather alongside the pergola-colonnade in the bushes. He may have even fired from a crouched position (naturally enough, not wanting return fire from the secret Service or to be seen), with his revolver pointed skyward but over the motorcade.
I too wonder why no one saw a long-rifle anywhere near the Grassy knoll, with the exception of one dubious witness. I conclude the gunshot noises and smoke were made with a snub-nose or improvised fiorecracker.
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Benjamin,
Without addressing your basic premise, I wouldn't give too much weight to the "hysterical woman" in Joe M. Smith's testimony.
I'm not sure whose affidavit Gary Craig was referencing, but he quotes someone as saying in their affidavit that, "?Some stopped to talk to people standing there as there were a number of women who were hysterical.?
The woman Smith encountered was just one of them.
It's really helpful to pull up CE 354 (as the WC staff did when questioning Joe Smith) and have it side by side when you go through his testimony.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1133#relPageId=973&tab=page
The way I am reading it, he encountered the woman very near the Depository, and then proceeded down the Elm St. extension. He encountered the "Secret Service Agent" in, or very near the parking lot that runs behind, or on the north side of the concrete structure some people refer to as the pergola.
I don't know enough about rifles vs. revolvers and the smell they produce to comment intelligently on your basic premise.
Steve Thomas
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Craig: Great list.
To me, even more telling than gunshot noise is the sight and smell of gunsmoke.
One could posit that sound bounces, there were echos, and other noises that day in Dealey Plaza. Personally, I think people accurately heard shots from the Grassy Knoll-colonnade area, but a weak case can be made witnesses were mistaken.
But no one seriously posits that Dealey Plaza witnesses were smelling gunsmoke from the TSBD, 80 yards downwind. The LN crowd stumbles on this, and the WC just ignored it. The HSCA, more or less, concluded that shot was a miss.
You miss a limo from 75 feet?
Some witnesses recall the sight of gunsmoke, but say it was in the trees etc., so some witnesses could miss that.
To me the basic premise survives: It strains credulity that there were gunshots and copious gunsmoke on the Grassy Knoll just as the President was being assassinated, and yet no shot from the front-right hit even the limousine.
A intentional diversion fits the facts.
Add on: Seems also a real assassin would want a secluded place he could camp out for a while (even 10 minutes), and level a long-rifle. Oswald (if it was Oswald) had that, and so might assassins in the Dal-Tex building.
Who would bring a rifle alongside a parade route for the President? If even one witness spotted such a individual even three minute before the shooting, the gig would likely be up.
But a snub-nose .38 is perfect as a diversion.
The "hysterical woman": Sure there are photos of women crying that day, and even lots of guys, naturally enough. But one summoned Patrolman Smith, and made clear gunman were in the bushes, somewhere around the pergola-colonnade. He took her seriously, and began searching that area.
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Dan--
Thanks for reading and you sensible commentary. Of course, what you suggest makes sense--if the diversion was poorly timed and too early---it would alert the Secret Service and others.
I posit the diversionist was told something along the lines of, "Wait until you hear gunshots. Then, do your diversion." After the first gunshot, the Secret Service is alerted anyway (well, they should have been).
So, I think a diversion plan holds water, if the diversionist is told to hold his shot-and-smoke show until after the first "real" shot.
BTW, this diversion action may explain why so many witnesses describe the first shot as not as loud as subsequent shots.
Hey, Ben. Despite the few knuckleheads who frequent this place, I do hope you decide to stay.
You (like most of us) do seem to want to discuss this case in a sane and rational manner.
At any rate.here's my take on this. To me, there's two types of diversion tactics which a group could use
to commit murder. The first is like what happened to Malcolm X. He had started to or was about to start a speech to a seated crowd in a hall of some sort when a fake fight broke out. As everyone's attention was drawn to that fake fight a gunman approached Malcolm and shot him dead and then he (like everyone else, innocent or guilty alike) bolted. This type of diversion was meant to increase the odds of committing the crime.
The second type of diversion, as you suggest, is not to increase the chances of successfully committing
the crime but was designed to allow the real assassin(s) to flee and there is a difference. Again, I really don't think the group would have spent so much time planning to fake shots when they could have had real shots aimed to kill
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Funny how those witnesses closest to the fence corner (like Hudson and Sitzman) totally missed the "copious gunsmoke" and diversionary gun shot/firecracker sound.
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Dan-
Thanks again for reading, and I enjoy your observations.
Yeah, that is a good point: Why not just take a real shot at the President from the Grassy Knoll-pergola area and then run away. It would be both a diversion from the main assassins and another chance to kill the target.
Well, I think a few reasons.
The limo is running left to right from anyone standing in the Grassy Knoll area (the Zapruder film view, for example). If one wishes to remain hidden from view, that means crouching down behind the pergola or the stockade fence (remember Secret Service eyes forward from the motorcade).
A shot at the horizontally moving target with a handgun is possible, but probably not reliable.
So a sensible to-kill Grassy Knoll shot means pointing a long rifle at the president, but no credible witness saw a rifle that day near the Grassy Knoll. None has shown up on photos, or movies. None was found tossed aside after the event. Some have pointed out that a shooter behind the stockade fence has his view of the motorcade blocked by the pergola-monument "until the last moment."
I can imagine carrying a break-apart rifle to ground-level along motorcade route. But how to run away carrying a rifle? But no rifle found at the scene.
So I deduce no rifle was used on the Grassy Knoll.
Another thought: The real assassins are hired and they survey the scene. They are in the Dal-Tex building, and they are not affiliated with Oswald. They say, "Nice layout, we are shooting from behind the president, and he is more or less moving in a straight line from us. But we need to escape after the act. So plan a diversion near the Grassy Knoll, but wait until our first shot."
The Dal-Tax shooters have semi-automatics, so it will be fast after the first shot anyway
Also, not every plan is a perfect plan. Maybe the diversion was a "bad idea." It risked exposure before the real shots were fired. It risked capture of the Grassy Knoll diversionist, who might confess. The more confederates in a conspiracy, the more chances for leaks, bumbling, extortion (one might wonder how long the diversionist lived after Nov. 22).
But the "Grassy Knoll" diversion plan fits the events. It was the plan they went with. People make plans, and plans have flaws. They have to work with available resources, the topography at hand, and personnel. Might have had only a week or two for on-the-ground for planning. They planned a diversion.
Anyway, that is my reasonable conjecture on the Grassy Knoll smoke-and-shot show.
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Funny how those witnesses closest to the fence corner (like Hudson and Sitzman) totally missed the "copious gunsmoke" and diversionary gun shot/firecracker sound.
Right Jerry. That's why the majority of the people closest to JFK's limo when he was shot ran toward the
grassy knoll. Almost none of the people at the corner of Houston and Elm, the alleged source of the shots,
ran toward the TSBD looking for a shooter.
-------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=35&relPageId=304
Mr. Hargis: I was at the left-hand side of the Presidential Limousine.
Mr. Stern: Riding next to Mrs. Kennedy?
Mr. Hargis: Right.
....Well at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. There wasn't
anyway in the world I could tell where they were coming from but at the time there
was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the
railroad overpass, because I thought since I had got splattered with blood-I was just
a little back and left of-justa little back and left of Mrs. Kennedy, but I didn't know.
I had a feeling that it might have been from the Texas Book Depository. and these places
was the primary place that could have been shot from....
....I ran across the street looking over towards the rairoad overpass and I remembered
seeing people scattering and running and then I looked--...
.....and then I looked over to the Texas School Book Depository Building, and no one that
was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or
anything like they knew where the shots were coming from,so.....
.....Well, then, I thought since I had looked over at the Texas Book Depository and some
people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on,
but none of them were looking towards or near anywhere the shots had been fired from.....
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?Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened,? Sunday News (New York), 24 November 1963
p.25:
Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) - B. W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding
in President Kennedy?s motorcade, gave this account today of the assassination:
?We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about half a block from where it happened. I was
right alongside the rear fender on the left hand side of the President?s car, near Mrs. Kennedy.
When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been
hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look.
The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him.
As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around.
I was splattered with blood.
Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.
Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun.
Then this Secret Service agent (in the President?s car) got his wits about him and they took off. The
motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot.?
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Right Jerry. That's why the majority of the people closest to JFK's limo when he was shot ran toward the grassy knoll.
Really? The Newmans never ran there. Bill described the shots as coming from a "garden" that was located to the east of the Pergola.
Charles Brehm told the FBI: "it seemed quite apparent to him that the shots came from one of two buildings back at the corner of Elm and Houston Streets."
(https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/normal_bond6Crop3.jpg)
Jean Hill and Mary Moorman weren't captured in photos pointing to the knoll. They crossed the street only when they saw others running up the steps and into the parking lot. They're still there about 90 seconds after the last shot.
Moorman told the FBI: "She states that she could not determine where the shots came from, and her next recollection is of people running more or less aimlessly, it seemed to her."
Almost none of the people at the corner of Houston and Elm, the alleged source of the shots,
ran toward the TSBD looking for a shooter.
-------------
Depends a lot on where one is positioned relative to the reverberation and muzzle blast. People standing at the base of the Depository (below the muzzle blast of a SN shot but facing the reverberation zone of a shot fired from the SN) would think the sound was coming from the West.
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Really? The Newmans never ran there. Bill described the shots as coming from a "garden" that was located to the east of the Pergola.
Bill Newman
First day affidavit
?I thought the shot had come from the garden directly behind me, that it was on an elevation from where I was as I was right on the curb. I do not recall looking toward the Texas School Book Depository. I looked back in the vacinity [sic] of the garden.?
FBI report
?NEWMAN first thought the President and Governor were playing some kind of a game and suddenly realized they had been shot and that he was perhaps in the line of fire because officers started running toward the arcade directly back of him and his wife.?
Shaw trial
?Q: Now would you push the microphone aside and step down to the aerial photograph and identify that general area, just the general area from which the sounds came.
A: In my opinion, the sounds of the shots sounded as if they had come from directly behind me (indicating). I was standing near this light standard here, and I thought the shots were coming from back here, and apparently everybody else did because they all ran in that direction. ?
?Newman: (Indicating) ?This is all the grassy knoll area, and it was my opinion or my thought from the noise, that the shots were coming from directly behind in here. I would say that the shots could have been fired from here, but the further this way you go, the less likely it would have been. ?
BY MR. DYMOND:
Q: I see. Now from the parking lot area behind the grassy knoll -- I am referring to the area north of the building here (indicating) --
A: Yes, sir.
Bill Newman and his wife were too busy protecting their children to run up the grassy knoll.
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?Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened,? Sunday News (New York), 24 November 1963
p.25:
Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) - B. W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding
in President Kennedy?s motorcade, gave this account today of the assassination:
?We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about half a block from where it happened. I was
right alongside the rear fender on the left hand side of the President?s car, near Mrs. Kennedy.
When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been
hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look.
The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him.
As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around.
I was splattered with blood.
Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.
Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun.
Then this Secret Service agent (in the President?s car) got his wits about him and they took off. The
motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot.?
"I was splattered with blood.
Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit."
How does a bullet fired from 60 feet in the air (6th floor) to the right and rear of JFK splatter Hargis with
blood and debris? He's to the left and behind the limo.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205z.jpg)
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"I was splattered with blood.
Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit."
How does a bullet fired from 60 feet in the air (6th floor) to the right and rear of JFK splatter Hargis with
blood and debris? He's to the left and behind the limo.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205z.jpg)
Gary, you forgot ...it's a magic bullet. ;)
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"I was splattered with blood.
Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit."
How does a bullet fired from 60 feet in the air (6th floor) to the right and rear of JFK splatter Hargis with
blood and debris? He's to the left and behind the limo.
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/willis%205z.jpg)
Hargis himself thought he had the misfortune to be droving forward into the debris field as it descended.
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?Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened,? Sunday News (New York), 24 November 1963
p.25:
Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) - B. W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding
in President Kennedy?s motorcade, gave this account today of the assassination:
?....
The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him.
As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around.
...
I was splattered with blood.
Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit.
Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun.
Then this Secret Service agent (in the President?s car) got his wits about him and they took off. The
motorcycle officer on the RIGHT side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot.?
If everyone agrees that the TSBD was downwind of the assassination, you can smell smoke if shots came from a revolver close by or at the front of car to be more precise! Right or Left. If you believe his perspective, it would be a more difficult observation than Chaney's. What his story!
We can now debate also whether this policeman was on JFK's side or Jackie's side. I would say he was on JFK's side as if you would follow his testimony as he gave it. His perspective would be from the right rear side of the limousine since you were following it with your motorcycle and it would make more sense. Was this Hagis possibly. We did see some other footage of a motorcycle cop coming off his bike on the other side of the road! In fact, the cars following the limousine pull over to where the assassin rolled into the grass. There were lots of people fleeing the scene in that footage as well, getting into cars and speeding off before the crowds came!
This policeman's account backs up my hypothesis. He said the President straightened backed up before he was shot. That coincides rather nicely with frontal bullet coming in through the windshield at z-322 and z-329. Curiously, these frames and z-331 don't find there way here.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=66 (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=66)
They are conveniently not there in the analysis! You have to look at Costella frames or Lightbox Zapruder frames to see them.
You can clearly see the President raise his arm and move back in his seat after z-313 and z-314. Remember, those drawn in shots were necessary to support the lone gunman theory and a shot from behind. To me, they never existed as Jacqueline does not react until the "real" head shot at z-329 and the red paint spot again drawn in at z-331, this time not as big! I could only imagine a very different reaction from her coinciding with a "plume of brain matter and blood" spraying 6 feet in the air at z-313. She has no reaction for more than a second from that and continued to look right at JFK for the next series of frames - no sign of immediate horror! Obviously didn't see anything until later.
So, yes being that all other vehicles are downwind, a close pistol shot from the front bumper of the limo will send the smoke from those two shots downwind in the direction of the TSBD. I would suspect all passing through would smell it. Two revolver shots in 1/2 a second from same spot sure would concentrate the odor.
I believe too, based on the initial account of Jean Hill before she talked to the FBI, that she heard 2 shots ring out when the President grabbed his neck. Again, best shot is from the umbrella man located "in front of sign" out of view of Zapruder's filming of the event.
Who ran the diversion? It was well coordinated and likely a "distractive" noise just slightly before actual neck shot and causing crowd to look in that direction! Need some proof?
Two guys are peeking over the background wall with their heads visible. What are they hiding from? Why not just stand there and watch? What secret are they taking part of? Look through the Costella slides. These are the best frames showing this.
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z200.jpg)
Their heads disappear below and THEN out comes a "red cone" placed on the wall. This is not a red dress folks just so happens to be coincidental with the neck shot!
(https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z204.jpg)
Pretty simple analysis in my view. You want a sure shot that doesn't kill or hurt anyone other than the President. No one else involved in the plot wants to die. The more direct and closer the shots can come, the more accurate it is. If I were part of the plot, I certainly wouldn't want trust a sniper taking pot shots at someone in the car if I was riding in the car and knowing what is going on! That neck shot was not a high powered rifle shot. You also have to contend with someone using an umbrella on this day (front of sign) and the so called "Cuban"next to him waving his arms at the President and Connally, begging "look at me!!" These two anomalies were present and unusual. Who else was out that day with umbrellas open and standing next to him vertically motioning at JFK and Connally with his arm fully stretched upwards! He wasn't clapping but trying to obtain JFK's attention!
There is a 35 mm slide coming from Phil Willis Copyright 1964. Why copyright 3 years later than event and not brought forth immediately? It show a scene taken from the other side of the road. It show a VERY elevated road sign well above the umbrella man's level and everyone else. Compare that to the Zapruder film. This slide shows an umbrella man "behind" the sign (not in "front") and "below" not beside. I also can't see the "Cuban" waving his hand at the side either. This single frame was supposed to coincide with the neck shot! That is very bizarre and reeks of misinformation! His one slide is given more credibility than the entire Zapruder filming introduced 3 years earlier!! A lot more talent is required to edit a film and make it contiguous again - than a "single still frame" shot in my opinion!
Remember the whole Zapruder Film was held for 12 years without allowing the public to see it? Why was that and who allowed that to happen and for what reason? The film was just too morbid I can only assume!
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Gary, you forgot ...it's a magic bullet. ;)
:-[
-
Hargis himself thought he had the misfortune to be droving forward into the debris field as it descended.
His contemporaneous statement said he thought at first he may have been shot himself.
That means he was hit hard by a piece of debris from the shot that hit JFK in the head.
The motorcade had come almost to a stop at that point.
Driving into a debris field - ::)
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This policeman's account backs up my hypothesis. He said the President straightened backed up before he was shot. That coincides rather nicely with frontal bullet coming in through the windshield at z-322 and z-329. Curiously, these frames and z-331 don't find there way here.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=66 (https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=66)
They are conveniently not there in the analysis! You have to look at Costella frames or Lightbox Zapruder frames to see them.
You really think the Gallery which this Forum links to at the top of every page ( https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/ under "JFK Assassination Photographs" ) purposely kept the 35mm scans of Z322 and Z329 out of some "album" so as to confound your pet theory?
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Sorry I didn't know that this gallery was provided by the JFK Assssination Forum. I thought it was an independent organization that was just out there to bring forth misinformation and keep from seeing the obvious! I certainly would have hoped that reflected light of glass particles in midair on the black background were not purposefully missing from there - nor the fact that the red blob over JFK's head at z-331 was inadvertently avoided posting there either!
Out of curiousity, who decides what is important and what gets posted there for "quick" reference? I would ask that you would include those frames 322,329 and 332 as they are the key to my "pet" theory and extremely important. On my own thread, someone danced around those photos with closeups of frames that were not from frame 322! Even Lightbox or Costella Frames would be adequate! Thanks!
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I'm impressed that you managed to identify the pistol used as a 38 snub nose.
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Perhaps much of the display and actions on the grassy knoll was staged... who knows...
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Yes, I divined as much.
What I am suggesting is that since gunsmoke was present in Dealey Plaza in the wake of the motorcade, and gunshots were heard, but no rifle ever seen, by deduction I think a handgun might have been used.
Also, secreting a handgun to alongside the presidential parade route is a lot better idea than a long rifle.
Given the copious amounts of gunsmoke---Dealey Plaza "reeked" by one account---a snub-nose .38 makes sense, as they release the most smoke, muzzle flash and make the biggest bang. The revolver was very common at the time, with shoulder harnesses etc available. Hand-loading bullets is a popular past-time for .38s.
But hey, maybe the diversion was a gunpowder-loaded homemade firecracker. Firecrackers were first made with gunpowder.
My main point is that what happened on the Grassy Knoll was a diversion, intended to help assassins, 80 yards behind the president, to escape. It worked to a large degree. Maybe totally for all we know.
Given witness reaction, I think something happened, but there evidently was no shot at the president.
That leaves an intentional diversion.
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Yep, the only unaccounted person seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza was a slender white male seen on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository.
Ed Hoffman saw two men behind the fence break down a rifle.
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John-
Yes, Ed Hoffman. I cast no aspersions, but....
I just find him a dubious witness. Too late. Seems to seek attention.
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John-
Yes, Ed Hoffman. I cast no aspersions, but....
I just find him a dubious witness. Too late. Seems to seek attention.
He told his wife and another friend about it the same day.
There's also Gordon Arnold, who said he saw a "policeman" with a shotgun.
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Ed Hoffman saw two men behind the fence break down a rifle.
Wow. You really believe that huh.
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John-
At this late date, it seems impossible to credit or discredit Ed Hoffman. I prefer witnesses interviewed early after Nov. 22, before "sides were chosen."
I think the Grassy Knoll smoke-and-shot show was a diversion. The medical evidence appears to be JFK was struck from behind. So even if Hoffman's recollections are correct, the Grassy Knoll gunman either missed (from very short range), never got into position to get off a good shot, or just fired intentionally smoky shots, possibly from a handgun.
Interestingly, Jack Ruby carried a snub-nose, the type of weapon best for making a lot of noise and releasing a lot of smoke.
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He told his wife and another friend about it the same day.
:o
(https://s17.postimg.org/aipf6a533/The_Hoff_zpsbhfrcf6f.gif)
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hoffman.htm
JohnM
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Wow. You really believe that huh.
Wow. You really believe that Howard Brennan saw Oswald firing a rifle huh.
-
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hoffman.htm
LOL. If adding elements to a story or changing the details discredits a witness then the same goes for Howard Brennan, Nick McDonald, Helen Markham, Marina Oswald, Charles Givens, Gerald Hill, William Whaley, and any number of other witnesses that you rely on to make your case against Oswald.
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Ed Hoffman saw two men behind the fence break down a rifle.
Wow. You really believe that huh.
Wow. You really believe that Howard Brennan saw Oswald firing a rifle huh.
Run away much?
I just want the record to show that John Iacoletti believes Ed Hoffman's story.
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Run away much?
Mytton claimed the "only unaccounted person seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza was a slender white male seen on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository", which is demonstrably false. It has nothing to do with what I believe. Hoffman said he saw another person with a rifle, just like Brennan said he saw a white male on the 6th floor with a rifle. You accept Brennan and reject Hoffman because Brennan said something you want to hear.
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Mytton claimed the "only unaccounted person seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza was a slender white male seen on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository", which is demonstrably false.
Well go ahead and demonstrate who else besides Oswald was seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza?
And then explain how Oswald's rifle with his prints and shirt fibers were found on the same floor?
Then explain why the Sniper's nest area where Oswald was seen was covered with his prints?
Then explain why Oswald left the building immediately?
Then explain why Oswald felt the need to kill a Police Officer, the first Dallas Police Officer killed on duty by gunfire since 1960?
Then explain why Oswald tried to kill more Police at the Texas Theater?
Btw this time please support your opinions with evidence, k!
JohnM
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Well go ahead and demonstrate who else besides Oswald was seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza?
Loaded question. Demonstrate that Oswald was seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza. All you've demonstrated is that a guy (eventually) claimed that he saw Oswald with a rifle. Just like there's another guy who claimed he saw a guy with a rifle behind the knoll.
And then explain how Oswald's rifle with his prints and shirt fibers were found on the same floor?
"Oswald's rifle". LOL. And fibers that were similar. LOL.
Then explain why the Sniper's nest area where Oswald was seen was covered with his prints?
Uh, his job was to get books out of boxes?
Then explain why Oswald left the building immediately?
On a day when all the employees were dismissed?
Then explain why Oswald felt the need to kill a Police Officer,
Demonstrate that Oswald felt the need to kill a Police Officer. Because "utter screwball" said it was him after saying "no" six times?
the first Dallas Police Officer killed on duty by gunfire since 1960?
How is that even relevant?
Then explain why Oswald tried to kill more Police at the Texas Theater?
That claim has been thoroughly debunked. Repeatedly. There's no evidence that Oswald tried to kill anybody at the Texas Theater.
Btw this time please support your opinions with evidence, k!
Why, you never do. You just make claims like "Oswald's rifle" over and over again.
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Mytton claimed the "only unaccounted person seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza was a slender white male seen on the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository", which is demonstrably false. It has nothing to do with what I believe. Hoffman said he saw another person with a rifle, just like Brennan said he saw a white male on the 6th floor with a rifle. You accept Brennan and reject Hoffman because Brennan said something you want to hear.
Mytton claimed...
And then YOU stated that Ed Hoffman saw two men behind the fence break down a rifle.
You accept Brennan and reject Hoffman because Brennan said something you want to hear.
How about you stop attributing things to me that I have never stated or argued in favor of? Do you think you can do that for me? Maybe at least try? A little?
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Loaded question. Demonstrate that Oswald was seen with a rifle in Dealey Plaza. All you've demonstrated is that a guy (eventually) claimed that he saw Oswald with a rifle. Just like there's another guy who claimed he saw a guy with a rifle behind the knoll.
"Oswald's rifle". LOL. And fibers that were similar. LOL.
Uh, his job was to get books out of boxes?
On a day when all the employees were dismissed?
Demonstrate that Oswald felt the need to kill a Police Officer. Because "utter screwball" said it was him after saying "no" six times?
How is that even relevant?
That claim has been thoroughly debunked. Repeatedly. There's no evidence that Oswald tried to kill anybody at the Texas Theater.
Why, you never do. You just make claims like "Oswald's rifle" over and over again.
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
Yes, Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work, geez what are the chances?
And fibers that were similar. LOL.
No fiber evidence ever will be conclusive but that's not the point, fiber evidence is still relevant in 2018 and is still an important forensic tool used worldwide, it comes down to statistics and unfortunately for your case the prohibitive probability is that Oswald's shirt fibers were on that rifle.
Uh, his job was to get books out of boxes?
Sure, but it wasn't Oswald's job to touch each and every one of the hundreds perhaps thousands of boxes on the 6th floor, yet in the sniper's nest we find Oswald's prints again, again and again.
On a day when all the employees were dismissed?
Shelley was Oswald's supervisor.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
That claim has been thoroughly debunked.
By whom, you? LOL!
JohnM
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And then YOU stated that Ed Hoffman saw two men behind the fence break down a rifle.
And Mytton said that Brennan saw a slender white male with a rifle. What's your point?
How about you stop attributing things to me that I have never stated or argued in favor of? Do you think you can do that for me? Maybe at least try? A little?
Are you saying that you don't believe Brennan?
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Yes, Oswald's rifle was found at Oswald's work, geez what are the chances?
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
No fiber evidence ever will be conclusive but that's not the point, fiber evidence is still relevant in 2018 and is still an important forensic tool used worldwide, it comes down to statistics and unfortunately for your case the prohibitive probability is that Oswald's shirt fibers were on that rifle.
What are the statistics, John? And how do you know? You can either prove they came from that shirt or you cannot.
Sure, but it wasn't Oswald's job to touch each and every one of the hundreds perhaps thousands of boxes on the 6th floor, yet in the sniper's nest we find Oswald's prints again, again and again.
Is this supposed to prove that Oswald shot somebody?
Shelley was Oswald's supervisor.
Mr. BALL. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr. SHELLEY. No, sir.
That doesn't preclude Oswald overhearing employees being dismissed.
By whom, you? LOL!
By multiple people. You have actually not providing a single shred of evidence that "Oswald tried to kill police at the Texas Theater". You just assumed that he did.