JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Howard Gee on June 09, 2018, 11:21:23 PM
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Although it's impossible to pin the drooling kooks down on the number of shots fired during the assassination, the general consensus seems to be....
JFK hit a minimum of 4 times.
Once in the back from behind.
Once in the throat from in front.
Twice in the head from the back and front.
JBC probably hit twice.
Once in the back.
Once in the wrist.
Wait.
We're not done yet counting up the kook bullets.
We also have the missed shots that were found in the plaza grass and picked up by an FBI agent as well as the shot(s) that damaged the sidewalk or was it a manhole cover, or both ?
OK, let's forget about the missed shots.
We'll make this easier for the kooks.
How do you explain that the overwhelming majority of assassination witnesses reported hearing just 3 shots ?
Even in a plaza where echoes and reverberations would be expected to cause people to think they heard more shots than were actually fired, most people still only heard three shots.
Yes, I realize a tiny minority of people thought as many as 4 shots might have been fired, but the number of people hearing more than 4 is virtually non-existent.
So drooling kooks, here's your latest dilemma and challenge:
Can you decide how many shots were fired ?
And after you've finished straining your kooky brains counting higher than 3, explain why less than your consensus 6 shots were heard.
So far you've failed miserably to explain what happened to the bullet that supposedly entered JFK's throat in 'The Truly Magical Bullet' thread, so here's another chance to redeem yourselves.
How many shots, droolers ?
DEBUNKING THE DROOLERS STEP BY STEP
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How do you explain that the overwhelming majority of assassination witnesses reported hearing just 3 shots ?
Witnesses also reported hearing shot or shots from the fence area up on the GN.
I left school and saw that parade.
The motorcade was very noisy because the motorcycle cops had their sirens all going and the spectators were yelling.
Anyway, I believe it is possible that there were riflemen utilizing silencers.
Real.. crack.. professional.. shooters.
The suspect rifle was a piece of crap. It was just there to make noise and incriminate Oswald.
What happened to the bullets?
It was a cover-up and LBJ ordered JFK's body to be whisked away and the car dismantled.
So officially ...what bullets?
If it weren't for drooling kooks like me...who would you have to rant at?
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Witnesses also reported hearing shot or shots from the fence area up on the GN.
I left school and saw that parade.
The motorcade was very noisy because the motorcycle cops had their sirens all going and the spectators were yelling.
Anyway, I believe it is possible that there were riflemen utilizing silencers.
Real.. crack.. professional.. shooters.
The suspect rifle was a piece of crap. It was just there to make noise and incriminate Oswald.
What happened to the bullets?
It was a cover-up and LBJ ordered JFK's body to be whisked away and the car dismantled.
So officially ...what bullets?
If it weren't for drooling kooks like me...who would you have to rant at?
I believe it is possible that there were riflemen utilizing silencers.
I doubt that there was more than one sniper using a rifle with a silencer.....but that's all that was necessary....because as you've said, he was a professional and used the sound of the motorcycle backfires and the other rifle as cover.....
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OK, so two of the droolers have a fake sniper firing diversionary shots, while the real assassins are using rifles with silencers and synchronizing their shots with motorcycle backfires, and that's why most people only heard 3 shots.
Do I have that right ?
Any other droolers want to take a crack at how many shots were fired and why the vast majority of witnesses only heard 3 shots ?
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The 2 things that tie up all the loose ends. Shot suppressors and a second Oswald. Goodnight everybody.
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Witnesses also reported hearing shot or shots from the fence area up on the GN.
I left school and saw that parade.
The motorcade was very noisy because the motorcycle cops had their sirens all going and the spectators were yelling.
Anyway, I believe it is possible that there were riflemen utilizing silencers.
Real.. crack.. professional.. shooters.
The suspect rifle was a piece of crap. It was just there to make noise and incriminate Oswald.
What happened to the bullets?
It was a cover-up and LBJ ordered JFK's body to be whisked away and the car dismantled.
So officially ...what bullets?
If it weren't for drooling kooks like me...who would you have to rant at?
To all you drooling kooks, if this was a conspiracy then absolutely there were silencers involved. And most of the world thinks this was a conspiracy.
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To all you drooling kooks, if this was a conspiracy then absolutely there were silencers involved. And most of the world thinks this was a conspiracy.
And as I have it Dulles was visiting the supersonic silencer factory on the day and at the time of the assassination. Possibilities??
I don't have the reference but recall it was very authentic looking when I studied it.
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Near simultaneous shots on the final salvo Kellerman not a person who guessed three I believe Connally and wife believe 3 hit the car so that makes 4 for it to fit in the official story Not sure Jackie or Greer ever commented on how many shots So that is 3 who said four or more at least if you wish to believe in one missing shot
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Near simultaneous shots on the final salvo Kellerman not a person who guessed three I believe Connally and wife believe 3 hit the car so that makes 4 for it to fit in the official story Not sure Jackie or Greer ever commented on how many shots So that is 3 who said four or more at least if you wish to believe in one missing shot
Kellerman, the Connallys, and Greer all said three shots.
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I think Jackie said she only heard two.
JBC said he only heard two. The first shot that he assumed hit JFK and the last shot that killed JFK. Connally said he didn't hear the shot that hit him. In any event, he thought there were 3 shots.
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OK, so two of the droolers have a fake sniper firing diversionary shots, while the real assassins are using rifles with silencers and synchronizing their shots with motorcycle backfires, and that's why most people only heard 3 shots.
Do I have that right ?
Any other droolers want to take a crack at how many shots were fired and why the vast majority of witnesses only heard 3 shots ?
No, you do not have it right.....But It's all we could expect from a limited mentality.
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Kellerman, the Connallys, and Greer all said three shots.
The Connally's claimed John Connally was hit be a different bullet than JFK By extension they are admitting to one more bullet than the WC story. I don't have the Kellerman quote , but I remember it being something like it was raining bullets in the limo which is not consistent with two bullets hitting the limo And, while you may not like my perspective , statements that are initially challenging of the WC and then conform to the WC story while testifying still have significance for me.
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Well Redrings, here's your chance to 'pull your head out' (can't remember who likes using that phrase) and explain more precisely how many shots were taken and which snipers were using silencers.
By the way Walt, that's a pretty neat trick being able to anticipate when a motorcycle will backfire and synchronize taking a shot at that exact moment.
that's a pretty neat trick being able to anticipate when a motorcycle will backfire and synchronize taking a shot at that exact moment.
My dear mentally challenged friend...... WHERE did I say that the shots were SYNCHRONIZED with the bangs of the motorcycles backfire???
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The Connally's claimed John Connally was hit be a different bullet than JFK By extension they are admitting to one more bullet than the WC story. I don't have the Kellerman quote , but I remember it being something like it was raining bullets in the limo which is not consistent with two bullets hitting the limo And, while you may not like my perspective , statements that are initially challenging of the WC and then conform to the WC story while testifying still have significance for me.
The Connally's claimed John Connally was hit be a different bullet than JFK By extension they are admitting to one more bullet than the WC story.
John Connally said he heard the first shot. He turned to his right in an attempt to look over his right shoulder because he felt that was where the sound came from. He said he could not turn far enough around to see over his right shoulder so he decided to turn to his left to attempt to look over his left shoulder. As he was turning his head from trying to look over his right shoulder to trying to look over his left shoulder, at about the point where he was again facing straight forward, he felt the impact of the bullet to his back.
Connally was assuming that the President was hit by the first shot and that is why he felt that he was hot by a different shot than the President (because he knew he himself was not hit by the first shot).
If the first shot missed, then Connally's assumption, thought a natural one to make, was incorrect.
I don't have the Kellerman quote , but I remember it being something like it was raining bullets in the limo which is not consistent with two bullets hitting the limo
I believe Kellerman used the phrase "a flurry of shells". When you consider the fact that the shot to Kennedy's skull caused the bullet to disintegrate into many shell fragments, Kellerman was quite correct.
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Am I understanding Kellerman to be saying JFK was hit then a flurry of shots followed?
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.
~snip~
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous
~snip~
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so.
~snip~
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN.President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
Representative FORD. Is that why you have described--
Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.
Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?
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John Connally said he heard the first shot. He turned to his right in an attempt to look over his right shoulder because he felt that was where the sound came from. He said he could not turn far enough around to see over his right shoulder so he decided to turn to his left to attempt to look over his left shoulder. As he was turning his head from trying to look over his right shoulder to trying to look over his left shoulder, at about the point where he was again facing straight forward, he felt the impact of the bullet to his back.
Connally was assuming that the President was hit by the first shot and that is why he felt that he was hot by a different shot than the President (because he knew he himself was not hit by the first shot).
If the first shot missed, then Connally's assumption, thought a natural one to make, was incorrect.
I believe Kellerman used the phrase "a flurry of shells". When you consider the fact that the shot to Kennedy's skull caused the bullet to disintegrate into many shell fragments, Kellerman was quite correct.
Except Connally's wife, Nellie, who was sitting next to him, saw JFK hit by the first shot, then watched her
husband turn in his seat before he was hit in the back by the second shot.
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The Connally's claimed John Connally was hit be a different bullet than JFK By extension they are admitting to one more bullet than the WC story. I don't have the Kellerman quote , but I remember it being something like it was raining bullets in the limo which is not consistent with two bullets hitting the limo And, while you may not like my perspective , statements that are initially challenging of the WC and then conform to the WC story while testifying still have significance for me.
Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.
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I believe Kellerman used the phrase "a flurry of shells". When you consider the fact that the shot to Kennedy's skull caused the bullet to disintegrate into many shell fragments, Kellerman was quite correct.
That is an excellent point.
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Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.
Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?
Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN.President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
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Am I understanding Kellerman to be saying JFK was hit then a flurry of shots followed?
Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.
~snip~
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous
~snip~
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so.
~snip~
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN.President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
Representative FORD. Is that why you have described--
Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.
Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
Hey Mr Gee Whiz....Can you explain how a cranky old bolt action carcano could be fired so rapidly that the incoming shots sounded like "flurry of shots".....
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John Connally said he heard the first shot. He turned to his right in an attempt to look over his right shoulder because he felt that was where the sound came from. He said he could not turn far enough around to see over his right shoulder so he decided to turn to his left to attempt to look over his left shoulder. As he was turning his head from trying to look over his right shoulder to trying to look over his left shoulder, at about the point where he was again facing straight forward, he felt the impact of the bullet to his back.
Connally was assuming that the President was hit by the first shot and that is why he felt that he was hot by a different shot than the President (because he knew he himself was not hit by the first shot).
If the first shot missed, then Connally's assumption, thought a natural one to make, was incorrect.
The point, as I understood the post, was the the number of witnesses. I imagine there is good reason to criticize or question the certainty of plenty of witnesses
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For a SS man, Kellerman is a shockingly poor witness.
A close reading of his testimony indicates that he thinks Kennedy is hit by the first 'firecracker' sounding shot and that the 'flurry' of shots came 'instantaneously' afterwards.
Yet somehow after the first shot Kellerman has time to turn and see JFK is hit, get on the radio to tell Lawson 'we are hit, get to a hospital', before the flurry of shots that supposedly came 'instantaneously' after the firecracker sound.
Makes no sense.
IMO, Kellerman only got on the radio after the fatal headshot, not before.
In any event, we can be sure that the elapsed time between JFK being wounded and his head being blown off is not 'instantaneous'.
Additionally, Kellerman seemingly assumes that the '4 wounds' to JFK couldn't have been caused by two bullets (each causing an entry and exit wound) and that Connally's '3 wounds' couldn't have been the result of one bullet.
Kellerman should know better.
When Kellerman is pressed to describe the 'flurry' of shots, it turns out he is actually describing a 'double bang' or the sound of something breaking the sound barrier.
Having said all that, the bottom line is Kellerman still won't commit to hearing more than 3 shots.
So the question remains, if there were 6 shots fired, why did most people only hear three ?
So far the answer seems to be one conspirator firing unmuted diversionary shots while the real snipers were firing away using rifles with silencers.
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A sensible reading of evidence such as the rifle shot, the sound of the shattering skull then the fragment(s) hitting the windscreen and the chrome strip above the glass would see 'a flurry of shots' as a reasonable reaction. Those hits on the vehicle's body (glass and chrome) were in the face of Greer and Kellerman and along with JC crying out "?my God, they are going to kill us all" from behind along with Jackie's horrified reaction I'm not surprised that the a flurry of shots was how Kellerman described the moment.
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A sensible reading of evidence such as the rifle shot, the sound of the shattering skull then the fragment(s) hitting the windscreen and the chrome strip above the glass would see 'a flurry of shots' as a reasonable reaction. Those hits on the vehicle's body (glass and chrome) were in the face of Greer and Kellerman and along with JC crying out "?my God, they are going to kill us all" from behind along with Jackie's horrified reaction I'm not surprised that the a flurry of shots was how Kellerman described the moment.
A sensible reading of evidence such as the rifle shot, the sound of the shattering skull then the fragment(s) hitting the windscreen and the chrome strip above the glass would see 'a flurry of shots' as a reasonable reaction.
Sensible?? So you believe that JFK's skull was made of some frangible material like glass?
It will probably be a surprise to you that the human skull is very tough and it will not "shatter".... when struck be a FMJ projectile like a carcano bullet. Thousands of soldiers have been struck in the head by FMJ projectiles and the skulls did not "shatter"
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The skull did shatter. A large piece was found in DP long after the limo had departed the scene. I'm not interested in debating semantics about the word 'shattered'. Suffice to say that JFK's skull broke into pieces. You do understand that don't you?
You failed to mention anything at all about the action taking place in the limo (including the shattering/breaking of the skull) that contributed to the perception of a flurry of shots. I assume you acknowledge that that was an understandable thing for Kellerman to have thought. Do you?
Now, to the point of this thread; how many shots were fired in DP on 11.22.63? I say three and you say ???
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The skull did shatter. A large piece was found in DP long after the limo had departed the scene. I'm not interested in debating semantics about the word 'shattered'. Suffice to say that JFK's skull broke into pieces. You do understand that don't you?
You failed to mention anything at all about the action taking place in the limo (including the shattering/breaking of the skull) that contributed to the perception of a flurry of shots. I assume you acknowledge that that was an understandable thing for Kellerman to have thought. Do you?
Now, to the point of this thread; how many shots were fired in DP on 11.22.63? I say three and you say ???
A large piece of JFK's skull was blown from the rear of his skull......As if he had been hit by a heavy hollow nose bullet . A FMJ would blow right through the skull leaving a small entrance and exit wound. Many soldiers survived being shot in the head by a FMJ bullet.....But none ever survived being shot by a 45 caliber ACP bullet.
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A large piece of JFK's skull was blown from the rear of his skull......As if he had been hit by a heavy hollow nose bullet . A FMJ would blow right through the skull leaving a small entrance and exit wound. Many soldiers survived being shot in the head by a FMJ bullet.....But none ever survived being shot by a 45 caliber ACP bullet.
Walt, this is the reason I question if an 6.5mm FMJ ball nosed bullet with impact velocity at 2000 ft sec, hitting just a very small area of a spherical object of brittle bone matter, on a tangent line, would shatter into at least 6 sizeable fragments, plus a few other smaller fragments, plus leave a trail of dust fragments in the brain.
I dont think there has been any experiment that shows that, other than the" Inside the Target Car"experiment, which has the WRONG trajectory line, because they dont have the head turned leftward as seen in Nix Flim and Moorman photo. They relied only on the side view from the Zapruder film at Z312 and that does not quite show how leftward JFKs head is actually turned.
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A large piece of JFK's skull was blown from the rear of his skull......As if he had been hit by a heavy hollow nose bullet . A FMJ would blow right through the skull leaving a small entrance and exit wound. Many soldiers survived being shot in the head by a FMJ bullet.....But none ever survived being shot by a 45 caliber ACP bullet.
Again you avoid the question. A day ago you asked:
Can you explain how a cranky old bolt action carcano could be fired so rapidly that the incoming shots sounded like "flurry of shots".....
and I responded:
You failed to mention anything at all about the action taking place in the limo (including the shattering/breaking of the skull) that contributed to the perception of a flurry of shots. I assume you acknowledge that that was an understandable thing for Kellerman to have thought. Do you?
Now, to the point of this thread; how many shots were fired in DP on 11.22.63? I say three and you say ... ?
With the sound of the rifle shot then bullet fragments pinging around in the car, JC crying out right behind Kellerman saying that they were all doomed, the sound of the skull getting hit and the spray of the brain matter plus Jackie's cries of horror and devastation makes for a horror beyond imagination. So I answered your question and have twice now asked two simple questions of my own. Are you not prepared to answer them?
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Walt, this is the reason I question if an 6.5mm FMJ ball nosed bullet with impact velocity at 2000 ft sec, hitting just a very small area of a spherical object of brittle bone matter, on a tangent line, would shatter into at least 6 sizeable fragments, plus a few other smaller fragments, plus leave a trail of dust fragments in the brain.
I dont think there has been any experiment that shows that, other than the" Inside the Target Car"experiment, which has the WRONG trajectory line, because they dont have the head turned leftward as seen in Nix Flim and Moorman photo. They relied only on the side view from the Zapruder film at Z312 and that does not quite show how leftward JFKs head is actually turned.
A question for you ZM; how many shots were fired in DP on 11.22.63? I say three and you say ... ?
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Again you avoid the question. A day ago you asked:
Can you explain how a cranky old bolt action carcano could be fired so rapidly that the incoming shots sounded like "flurry of shots".....
and I responded:
You failed to mention anything at all about the action taking place in the limo (including the shattering/breaking of the skull) that contributed to the perception of a flurry of shots. I assume you acknowledge that that was an understandable thing for Kellerman to have thought. Do you?
Now, to the point of this thread; how many shots were fired in DP on 11.22.63? I say three and you say ... ?
With the sound of the rifle shot then bullet fragments pinging around in the car, JC crying out right behind Kellerman saying that they were all doomed, the sound of the skull getting hit and the spray of the brain matter plus Jackie's cries of horror and devastation makes for a horror beyond imagination. So I answered your question and have twice now asked two simple questions of my own. Are you not prepared to answer them?
You failed to mention anything at all about the action taking place in the limo (including the shattering/breaking of the skull) that contributed to the perception of a flurry of shots.
I thought it was clear that I believe the idea that JFK's skull "shattered" and that created the illusion of a "flurry" of shots is nothing but BS!.... Kellerman was referring to a "flurry of shots...Not pieces of JFK's skull flying about...
Incidentally no "fragments" from a shattered skull were found anywhere near Toy Kellrman.....
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Walt, It's obvious you are incapable of a reasonable exchange on this subject. I'll leave you alone with your childish posting and your lack of courage to even nominate the number of shots in DP.
"Toy Kellerman" indeed ... what a juvenile comment.
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Walt, It's obvious you are incapable of a reasonable exchange on this subject. I'll leave you alone with your childish posting and your lack of courage to even nominate the number of shots in DP.
"Toy Kellerman" indeed ... what a juvenile comment.
Pssst...Perhaps you can look at your keyboard and see that the letters "T" and "R" are side by side....
What would a reasonably intelligent person assume happened that caused Roy Kellerman to become Toy Kellerman?
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Pssst...Perhaps you can look at your keyboard and see that the letters "T" and "R" are side by side....
What would a reasonably intelligent person assume happened that caused Roy Kellerman to become Toy Kellerman?
How many shots in DP?
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Thanks ZM for a considered response.
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You failed to mention anything at all about the action taking place in the limo (including the shattering/breaking of the skull) that contributed to the perception of a flurry of shots.
I thought it was clear that I believe the idea that JFK's skull "shattered" and that created the illusion of a "flurry" of shots is nothing but BS!.... Kellerman was referring to a "flurry of shots...Not pieces of JFK's skull flying about...
Incidentally no "fragments" from a shattered skull were found anywhere near Toy Kellrman.....
Kellerman was referring to a "flurry of shots...Not pieces of JFK's skull flying about...
How do you know?
Kellerman never said a "flurry of shots".
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How do you know?
Kellerman never said a "flurry of shots".
He didn't?? Then explain this Billy Bob.....
Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.
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Zeon, we do not know that Kellerman had the perception of a flurry of shots because he never said that.
Every single study of the autopsy photos and X-rays concluded that Kennedy was hit twice and both shots were from above and behind.
Im not contesting if he said heard a flurry, im just suggesting the "flurry" perception he has, which you were saying is caused by fragments hitting windhield, might not ALL be from the MC rifle.
And Im not contesting the head shot came from the rear, i am contesting which rear trajectory from TSBD works better, an imo, the SW angle is MUCH closer to a path from entrance wound as per HSCA diagram, to the V notch in the autopsy photo.
Im not entirely convinced by the Inside the Target Car experiment, Bill. Imo that did not have JFKs head turned leftward enough. And although they DID show a similar forward and upwards splatter pattern, I think the failed to show a bullet fragmenting into at least 6 sizable fragments and also how 3 of those could bounce of inner windsheild and richochet around the driver Greer.
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Im not contesting if he said heard a flurry, im just suggesting the "flurry" perception he has, which you were saying is caused by fragments hitting windhield, might not ALL be from the MC rifle.
And Im not contesting the head shot came from the rear, i am contesting which rear trajectory from TSBD works better, an imo, the SW angle is MUCH closer to a path from entrance wound as per HSCA diagram, to the V notch in the autopsy photo.
Im not entirely convinced by the Inside the Target Car experiment, Bill. Imo that did not have JFKs head turned leftward enough. And although they DID show a similar forward and upwards splatter pattern, I think the failed to show a bullet fragmenting into at least 6 sizable fragments and also how 3 of those could bounce of inner windsheild and richochet around the driver Greer.
My point was that Kellerman said a "flurry of shells" as opposed to a flurry of shots. Big difference.
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Kellerman never said a "flurry of shots".
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.
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Thanks for the bumps Tony Yes it is nice when someone is in error that they actually admit it
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My point was that Kellerman said a "flurry of shells" as opposed to a flurry of shots. Big difference.
My point was that Kellerman said a "flurry of shells" as opposed to a flurry of shots. Big difference.
Merely a difference of semantics ...... Just as some cops referred to the spent cartridges on the sixth floor as "shells" and sometimes "slugs".... Most intelligent folks understood that whether the spent cartridges were referred to as "shells", or "hulls" or "slugs" or "brass"..... the objects were spent cartridges
Kellerman was referring to the fusillade of bullets ( projectiles) ......
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Thanks for the bumps Tony Yes it is nice when someone is in error that they actually admit it
Point out an error of mine and I'll admit I made an error. Fair enough?
Kellerman never says a flurry of shots; he said a "flurry of shells". I'm not going to bother pointing out the difference.
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Point out an error of mine and I'll admit I made an error. Fair enough?
Kellerman never says a flurry of shots; he said a "flurry of shells". I'm not going to bother point out the difference.
Yes I missed your distinction. You really believe Kellerman meant shells? Even if we were to give credence to that seemingly absurd notion the proximity in time of the shells still has significance Maybe Greer was shooting after all if shells are arriving in the limo
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Yes I missed your distinction. You really believe Kellerman meant shells? Even if we were to give credence to that seemingly absurd notion the proximity in time of the shells still has significance Maybe Greer was shooting after all if shells are arriving in the limo
Yes...Maybe ol Billy Bob is making the point that the driver Bill Greer was blazing away at JFK with an automatic and the ejected shells were flying around Kellerman....
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Yes...Maybe ol Billy Bob is making the point that the driver Bill Greer was blazing away at JFK with an automatic and the ejected shells were flying around Kellerman....
Exactly
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Yes I missed your distinction.
So, the error was yours and not mine.
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So, the error was yours and not mine.
Bill I would think you would have the common sense to be embarrassed by this thread
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Bill I would think you would have the common sense to be embarrassed by this thread
If you really wish to waste the time, go ahead and point out anything I stated which you feel I should be embarrassed about.
You guys confused a "flurry of shells" with a flurry of shots. That is nothing for me to be embarrassed over.
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Isn't "kook" a pejorative term?
"Droolers" "Kooks" ....a limited vocabulary for a limited mind.
The parrots riding the Warren Report Express.....
(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/trainwreck.gif)
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Again you avoid the question. A day ago you asked:
Can you explain how a cranky old bolt action carcano could be fired so rapidly that the incoming shots sounded like "flurry of shots".....
Uhhhhh...had some trigger work done? (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
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Kellerman's testimony re 'flurry of shells'
"... a flurry of shells come into the car"
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh2/html/WC_Vol2_0041b.htm
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If you really wish to waste the time, go ahead and point out anything I stated which you feel I should be embarrassed about.
You guys confused a "flurry of shells" with a flurry of shots. That is nothing for me to be embarrassed over.
First off I mentioned in an earlier post that I missed your distinction I do have to wonder what your thought process is on this quote. Maybe you had a grudge about someone making a literal translation of some earlier quote that you thought was absolutely ridiculous and this was your way of getting back? Your continuing refusal to even address whether you actually believe Kellerman meant the literal translation you are insisting upon, also raises serious questions about what your intention is in this matter
And now, thanks to Rob, I come to find out you are actually incorrect. At least in claiming there was no quote from Kelleraman saying a flurry of shots Now it may be there was a separate quote of flurry of shots but that is not what you were arguing So your wrong plain and simple. I was browsing around a bit and came across a quote that you always admit you are wrong when it is shown to you. I am not into apologies, if someone admits that they were wrong is generally good enough for me
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First off I mentioned in an earlier post that I missed your distinction I do have to wonder what your thought process is on this quote. Maybe you had a grudge about someone making a literal translation of some earlier quote that you thought was absolutely ridiculous and this was your way of getting back? And rather than addressing whether you actually believe Kellerman actually meant the literal translation you are insisting upon
And now, thanks to Rob, I come to find out you are actually incorrect. Man your going to come up with a whooper absurdity and it is not even true. I am not into apologies, if someone admits that they were wrong is generally good enough for me
This was a classic scenario for Bill Chapman would clearly rise in the defense of
Kellerman was full of XXXX The only thing that there was a flurry of was bullet fragments, brain matter and bone. He threw Greer under the bus. He made up a story about Kennedy saying something in a Boston accent. Why you waste time on crap like this only solidifies the fact that you're a sorry argumentative whinebag.
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Kellerman was full of sh*t. The only thing that there was a flurry of was bullet fragments, brain matter and bone. He threw Greer under the bus. He made up a story about Kennedy saying something in a Boston accent. Why you waste time on crap like this only solidifies the fact that you're a sorry argumentative whinebag.
Usually when you want to discredit a quote one either implies the person being quoted has a flawed personal history, or would have had a motivation to lie You demonstrated neither
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http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/forum/126-jfk-assassination-debate/
What am I supposed to be finding?
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What am I supposed to be finding?
A new home.
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A new home.
Clever I guess Certainly a well played distraction from your problems
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Aah, what's this?
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, "What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am sure.
Are you being dishonest again?
The portion of Kellerman's testimony which was relevant to Walt Cakebread's post (the post which started this whole thing) has Kellerman saying "flurry of shells".
Later in his testimony, when referring to something he heard Jackie say just after the shooting, Kellerman does say "flurry of shots".
In a conversation I had with Bob Harris years ago, he and I were discussing Kellerman's testimony and his reference to a "flurry of shells".
Earlier in this thread when I claimed that Kellerman did not say a flurry of shots, I was going by memory, knowing that he said "a flurry of shells". Obviously I should have read Kellerman's entire testimony before claiming that he never used the phrase "a flurry of shots".
While I believe that the relevant portion of his testimony which applied to Cakebread's post (which I was replying to) has him saying "a flurry of shells", Kellerman does later say "a flurry of shots" and therefore, I was incorrect in claiming that Kellerman never said "flurry of shots".
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Kellerman's SS report a week later.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-kelle.htm
One shot.
We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30 p.m.
And two more.
Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice, "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"
Equals three!
JohnM
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For a SS man, Kellerman is a shockingly poor witness.
A close reading of his testimony indicates that he thinks Kennedy is hit by the first 'firecracker' sounding shot and that the 'flurry' of shots came 'instantaneously' afterwards.
Yet somehow after the first shot Kellerman has time to turn and see JFK is hit, get on the radio to tell Lawson 'we are hit, get to a hospital', before the flurry of shots that supposedly came 'instantaneously' after the firecracker sound.
Makes no sense.
IMO, Kellerman only got on the radio after the fatal headshot, not before.
In any event, we can be sure that the elapsed time between JFK being wounded and his head being blown off is not 'instantaneous'.
Additionally, Kellerman seemingly assumes that the '4 wounds' to JFK couldn't have been caused by two bullets (each causing an entry and exit wound) and that Connally's '3 wounds' couldn't have been the result of one bullet.
Kellerman should know better.
When Kellerman is pressed to describe the 'flurry' of shots, it turns out he is actually describing a 'double bang' or the sound of something breaking the sound barrier.
Having said all that, the bottom line is Kellerman still won't commit to hearing more than 3 shots.
So the question remains, if there were 6 shots fired, why did most people only hear three ?
So far the answer seems to be one conspirator firing unmuted diversionary shots while the real snipers were firing away using rifles with silencers.
Remember also that the lead car "waits" in the "tunnel" for the whole event to unfold - a nice safe distance by the looks of it. They waited there and allowed the JFK limo to pass them on the way to the hospital according to what you see in the late stages of the Zapruder film. I don't see much point in believing anything Kellerman said - especially when he is ducked in the front seat and the driver has his head placed close to the windshield to avoid the glass spray from the bullets coming from the front at a 1/2 second interval. Glass spray certainly will show up in the sunlight which is exactly what it did and what you would expect!
There are also 2 other interesting events to look at. You see the righthandside (RHS) Secret Service (SS) man (passenger side) in the follow up car on the running boards duck in another footage. No one else does - so he saw something unusual andmay have had the line of sight of the gunfire coming towards him is my take! Again adds up to the guy rolling in the grass and sitting there, winded after the event!
You also note the person with the "black afro" freeze in her tracks at Z322 and go the other way away from the scene. This can be verified with the other vantage point footage. She saw something going down as well. Who is she? That is half a second after Z313! Zapruder's camera shakes and blurs coincidentally with Z330 "light event" and the absence of Kellerman upright in the seat during those frames. Zapruder saw its unforgettable damage and heard the unmistakable shot ring out! The blur and change in the President from before and after these few frames cannot go unnoticed. Jacqueline reacts thereafter as well and decides to flee the scene thinking she maybe next!
Its pretty simple if you don't believe a number of concocted and fabricated stories to cover up the whole scene. However, it was required that our Carcano bolt action sniper rifle held by none other than the quickly deceased LHO wears it. Failure to buy his "neck shot" and head shot means there is a large number of people involved and not just a lone gunman. There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately. Always told it is a matter of national security. You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job. Can you trust the organizations that don't report to congress and are not held accountable to the people? Your best shots that don't miss come from very close, point blank and directly in line if the target is moving!
Reminds me of modern day shooter Paddock in Las Vegas. He supposedly committed suicide, they had his body cremated already and there is no autopsy report yet. That is in public interest? Why not have a normal investigation and not quickly cover things up if what they tell you is the truth? Who benefits from these delays? That smells of rotten fish too! Just my opinion!
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Uhhhhh...had some trigger work done? (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
A gunsmith could work over the trigger for days....but no amount of "trigger work " could make the cranky old bolt action capable of firing like an automatic....
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Remember also that the lead car "waits" in the "tunnel" for the whole event to unfold - a nice safe distance by the looks of it. They waited there and allowed the JFK limo to pass them on the way to the hospital according to what you see in the late stages of the Zapruder film. I don't see much point in believing anything Kellerman said - especially when he is ducked in the front seat and the driver has his head placed close to the windshield to avoid the glass spray from the bullets coming from the front at a 1/2 second interval. Glass spray certainly will show up in the sunlight which is exactly what it did and what you would expect!
There are also 2 other interesting events to look at. You see the righthandside (RHS) Secret Service (SS) man (passenger side) in the follow up car on the running boards duck in another footage. No one else does - so he saw something unusual andmay have had the line of sight of the gunfire coming towards him is my take! Again adds up to the guy rolling in the grass and sitting there, winded after the event!
You also note the person with the "black afro" freeze in her tracks at Z322 and go the other way away from the scene. This can be verified with the other vantage point footage. She saw something going down as well. Who is she? That is half a second after Z313! Zapruder's camera shakes and blurs coincidentally with Z330 "light event" and the absence of Kellerman upright in the seat during those frames. Zapruder saw its unforgettable damage and heard the unmistakable shot ring out! The blur and change in the President from before and after these few frames cannot go unnoticed. Jacqueline reacts thereafter as well and decides to flee the scene thinking she maybe next!
Its pretty simple if you don't believe a number of concocted and fabricated stories to cover up the whole scene. However, it was required that our Carcano bolt action sniper rifle held by none other than the quickly deceased LHO wears it. Failure to buy his "neck shot" and head shot means there is a large number of people involved and not just a lone gunman. There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately. Always told it is a matter of national security. You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job. Can you trust the organizations that don't report to congress and are not held accountable to the people? Your best shots that don't miss come from very close, point blank and directly in line if the target is moving!
Reminds me of modern day shooter Paddock in Las Vegas. He supposedly committed suicide, they had his body cremated already and there is no autopsy report yet. That is in public interest? Why not have a normal investigation and not quickly cover things up if what they tell you is the truth? Who benefits from these delays? That smells of rotten fish too! Just my opinion!
You have a cast of many involved in your conspiracy. To paraphrase Bugliosi:
It's easy for three people to keep a secret ... so long as two of them are dead.
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Kellermans use of word "shots: vs "shells" is relative to the issue of what sounds Kellerman heard.
If Kellerman is saying he heard only 3 "shots fired" then the "flurry" must apply to "shells" which could be either bullets or fragments of bullets, or some combination of both, that Kellerman heard or saw the effects of, which hit some parts of the interor of the limo, ie, the inner windsheild, the windsheild frame, and possibly some part of the dashboard.
My question still remains if ALL the fragments are from just one rifle and I am skeptical, because the SE tragectory for the head shot does not appear to me to be possible according to the HSCA diagram of upper right rear entrance and lateral right side of skull exit points. This line is only possible if the skull is NOT rotated leftward as much as it is apparent in the Nix Film and the Muchmore photo. *
I don't understand the "nose" fragment" being so mangled having only hit such a small spherical area of brittle human bone plus a cushion of hair. I would have expected the ball nose to generally penetrate and remain only somewhat deformed. I welcome some more experiments to test this MC type 6.5 FMJ ball nose bullet fired at a tangent to a human round skull to see what the effects are and if they are anywhere close to being mangled as much as the "nose" CE 567 fragment:
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/infojfk/jfk1/1p467f284.jpg)
The "inside the Target Car" experiment, imo, did NOT quite get JFKs head rotated as leftward as it appears in Nix flim and Muchmore film, and i would welcome another experiment with the head rotated more leftward, and also I would like to see some shots using the SW 6th story TSBS window trajectory. They should include this time a replica Hargis dummy on a motorcyle beside the car to see what the splatter force is from both SE and SW trajectory.
* also, the HSCA diagram for head shot entry/exit does not match with the radial fragmentation lines in the JFK lateral X ray, and there is no diagram to explain how if the fragmentatiion lines converging to the V notch in the autopsy photo were caused by a fragment, and if such fragment the cause, how that fragment did not strike the back seat of Greer.
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You have a cast of many involved in your conspiracy. To paraphrase Bugliosi:
It's easy for three people to keep a secret ... so long as two of them are dead.
Fair point taken! I have always looked at the objective evidence (films) rather than testimonial and tried to make the stories match each other. When testimonies don't match what you see, then I question it. From my take on the WC, there were times when people said things that didn't match the record as if edited for a reason, not to gather evidence but gather a conclusion!
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Remember also that the lead car "waits" in the "tunnel" for the whole event to unfold - a nice safe distance by the looks of it. They waited there and allowed the JFK limo to pass them on the way to the hospital according to what you see in the late stages of the Zapruder film. I don't see much point in believing anything Kellerman said - especially when he is ducked in the front seat and the driver has his head placed close to the windshield to avoid the glass spray from the bullets coming from the front at a 1/2 second interval. Glass spray certainly will show up in the sunlight which is exactly what it did and what you would expect!
There are also 2 other interesting events to look at. You see the righthandside (RHS) Secret Service (SS) man (passenger side) in the follow up car on the running boards duck in another footage. No one else does - so he saw something unusual andmay have had the line of sight of the gunfire coming towards him is my take! Again adds up to the guy rolling in the grass and sitting there, winded after the event!
You also note the person with the "black afro" freeze in her tracks at Z322 and go the other way away from the scene. This can be verified with the other vantage point footage. She saw something going down as well. Who is she? That is half a second after Z313! Zapruder's camera shakes and blurs coincidentally with Z330 "light event" and the absence of Kellerman upright in the seat during those frames. Zapruder saw its unforgettable damage and heard the unmistakable shot ring out! The blur and change in the President from before and after these few frames cannot go unnoticed. Jacqueline reacts thereafter as well and decides to flee the scene thinking she maybe next!
Its pretty simple if you don't believe a number of concocted and fabricated stories to cover up the whole scene. However, it was required that our Carcano bolt action sniper rifle held by none other than the quickly deceased LHO wears it. Failure to buy his "neck shot" and head shot means there is a large number of people involved and not just a lone gunman. There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately. Always told it is a matter of national security. You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job. Can you trust the organizations that don't report to congress and are not held accountable to the people? Your best shots that don't miss come from very close, point blank and directly in line if the target is moving!
Reminds me of modern day shooter Paddock in Las Vegas. He supposedly committed suicide, they had his body cremated already and there is no autopsy report yet. That is in public interest? Why not have a normal investigation and not quickly cover things up if what they tell you is the truth? Who benefits from these delays? That smells of rotten fish too! Just my opinion!
There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately. Always told it is a matter of national security. You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job.
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Remember also that the lead car "waits" in the "tunnel" for the whole event to unfold - a nice safe distance by the looks of it. They waited there and allowed the JFK limo to pass them on the way to the hospital according to what you see in the late stages of the Zapruder film. I don't see much point in believing anything Kellerman said - especially when he is ducked in the front seat and the driver has his head placed close to the windshield to avoid the glass spray from the bullets coming from the front at a 1/2 second interval. Glass spray certainly will show up in the sunlight which is exactly what it did and what you would expect!
There are also 2 other interesting events to look at. You see the righthandside (RHS) Secret Service (SS) man (passenger side) in the follow up car on the running boards duck in another footage. No one else does - so he saw something unusual andmay have had the line of sight of the gunfire coming towards him is my take! Again adds up to the guy rolling in the grass and sitting there, winded after the event!
You also note the person with the "black afro" freeze in her tracks at Z322 and go the other way away from the scene. This can be verified with the other vantage point footage. She saw something going down as well. Who is she? That is half a second after Z313! Zapruder's camera shakes and blurs coincidentally with Z330 "light event" and the absence of Kellerman upright in the seat during those frames. Zapruder saw its unforgettable damage and heard the unmistakable shot ring out! The blur and change in the President from before and after these few frames cannot go unnoticed. Jacqueline reacts thereafter as well and decides to flee the scene thinking she maybe next!
Its pretty simple if you don't believe a number of concocted and fabricated stories to cover up the whole scene. However, it was required that our Carcano bolt action sniper rifle held by none other than the quickly deceased LHO wears it. Failure to buy his "neck shot" and head shot means there is a large number of people involved and not just a lone gunman. There is a reason information is withheld for 50 years - otherwise why not let the truth reveal itself to the people immediately. Always told it is a matter of national security. You bet it is if it would be found to be an inside job. Can you trust the organizations that don't report to congress and are not held accountable to the people? Your best shots that don't miss come from very close, point blank and directly in line if the target is moving!
Reminds me of modern day shooter Paddock in Las Vegas. He supposedly committed suicide, they had his body cremated already and there is no autopsy report yet. That is in public interest? Why not have a normal investigation and not quickly cover things up if what they tell you is the truth? Who benefits from these delays? That smells of rotten fish too! Just my opinion!
Wow, multiple paragraphs of bovine excrement.
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Wow, multiple paragraphs of bovine excrement.
Perhaps you are competing with Howard Gee on the meaningless taunts category Since John I's seeming disappearance you are now the clear leader Congratulations
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Matt G. is a respectful debater.
Since some on both sides, make unkind remarks, one should respect, likewise, those who are civil on both sides. And none of us are perfect either.
John I would always just bring up situations, not always rebuking a statement but denying it, but basically courteous enough.
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Thanks Richard I should really just stay out of it with Steve, Howard, and those whose posts are nothing more than pure insult. I am still working on that
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Six shots, actually might be less than the number of shots that were taken to kill JFK and injure John Connally . Some shots might have missed their mark . The three shot scenario was started right after the assassination and there has been contradictions about the number of shots ever since. A hole in the windshield and a bullet hit the chrome around the windshield and we have a ricochet piece that stung James Tague . It was thought that several shots came into the limo area .
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Six shots, actually might be less than the number of shots that were taken to kill JFK and injure John Connally . Some shots might have missed their mark . The three shot scenario was started right after the assassination and there has been contradictions about the number of shots ever since. A hole in the windshield and a bullet hit the chrome around the windshield and we have a ricochet piece that stung James Tague . It was thought that several shots came into the limo area .
More than 6? Do tell.
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Thanks Richard I should really just stay out of it with Steve, Howard, and those whose posts are nothing more than pure insult. I am still working on that
Whenever you misquote witness testimony you will be notified. Whenever you dodge and twist away from said misquote, you will be exposed as a mere buff.
I suggest you find a CT-only forum where you can backslap to your heart's content.
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Perhaps you are competing with Howard Gee on the meaningless taunts category Since John I's seeming disappearance you are now the clear leader Congratulations
There you go sticking your nose in somebody else's posts. Quite a few of you new nuts don't have a grasp on the facts yet do you? YouTube is doing you harm. Reading is fundamental .
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There you go sticking your nose in somebody else's posts. Quite a few of you new nuts don't have a grasp on the facts yet do you? YouTube is doing you harm. Reading is fundamental .
I am happy to ignore you Steve I even mentioned my regret earlier
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No one who labels others as ?Drooling fools? is interested in intelligent, honest debate.
There is the interviews the day of the event
The FBI coercion interviews
The Warren commission printed testimony
The shock of many who testified that their testimony was changed
It is extremely difficult to determine the number of shots due to a evidence masking autopsy
There are many wild theories without evidence
The lack of evidence is intentional
Many disagree
Few resort to insults
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Why do you say three shots? Because the WC told you so. You weren't there so you have no way of knowing for sure, but you feel comfortable telling others that they are wrong as if you were.
If that's how you treat evidence i.e. you can only trust what your own senses tell you at the time of the incident then no one on this forum can contribute anything at all to the discussion as none of us was there in the plaza at 12.30pm on 11.22.63. Anyway, how many shots do you think were fired in DP that day?
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Whenever you misquote witness testimony you will be notified. Whenever you dodge and twist away from said misquote, you will be exposed as a mere buff.
I suggest you find a CT-only forum where you can backslap to your heart's content.
This is indeed very intimidating Bill Looks like i am going to shape up my act with new quote sheriff in town
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I wonder if you even know why the WC claimed that there were three shots.
Forensic evidence and witness statements. How many shots do you say were fired?
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Forensic evidence and witness statements. How many shots do you say were fired?
We do know the number of shots fired is less than the number of times the LN'ers insist on a perfect accounting of how many shots were fired Conclusions have their place, but the premises they are based upon is primary
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We do know the number of shots fired is less than the number of times the LN'ers insist on a perfect accounting of how many shots were fired Conclusions have their place, but the premises they are based upon is primary
What is meant by 'perfect accounting'? Do you mean three or four or some other number?
How many shots do you think were fired in DP on that day?
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The primary reasons were allegedly finding three spent cartridges, media reports and the FBI said so. IOW's, they didn't base their claim on actual evidence. Nothing unusual there for them.
And still you won't put a number on the shots fired in DP. You haven't even said "I don't know". I've given up asking. Your silence on that question speaks volumes to me.
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What is meant by 'perfect accounting'? Do you mean three or four or some other number?
How many shots do you think were fired in DP on that day?
Would you include the one from the stretcher or was that just a plant? I guess it does get confusing if you want to include the pristine bullet that rolled off the stretcher! I mean that "magic" bullet entered and exited 7 times and pretty much looks like it was pried off the end of a shell and left lying there as evidence to add to the sniper's nest cartridges found at that scene.
It looks like pretty convincing evidence if you want to steer your case in a particular direction and convicts someone in absentia.
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And still you won't put a number on the shots fired in DP. You haven't even said "I don't know". I've given up asking. Your silence on that question speaks volumes to me.
Rob (and other CTs) wont say how many shots were fired at JFK and from where... which is the bare minimum required for them to be credible.
They will not provide an estimate of the number of shots fired in Dealey Plaza on 22 November 1963: because they know their statements will be scrutinized---and then because there would be no physical evidence---ridiculed.
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Rob (and other CTs) wont say how many shots were fired at JFK and from where... which is the bare minimum required for them to be credible.
They will not provide an estimate of the number of shots fired in Dealey Plaza on 22 November 1963: because they know their statements will be scrutinized---and then because there would be no physical evidence---ridiculed.
Again having an understanding of the evidence that forms the premises for any conclusions is the primary test for credibility At a minimum the premises lend themselves to hard facts whereas conclusion rely on inferential notions of one sort or another Drawing exact conclusions is a secondary consideration, and by definition, a more speculative and inferential activity
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It doesn't matter what the exact number was. The important part, the part that you want to obscure, is that it was more than three.
Your lack of understanding of the evidence speaks volumes to me.
So basically you have said 'I don't know'. I suppose that's how you CTers can come up with so many crazy theories based on rubbery evidence. That approach leads nowhere but I guess it gives you the flexibility to argue any point you like using dodgy material contradicting yourself as you stumble along.
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Again having a handle of evidence that form the the premises for any conclusions is the primary test for credibility Drawing exact conclusions is a secondary consideration and by definition a more speculative and inferential activity
Apart from a lack of punctuation: your statement makes no sense and is of no value in this debate.
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Apart from a lack of punctuation: your statement makes no sense and is of no value in this debate.
Do you have any background in philosophy and logic? You understand the idea that premises lead to conclusions don't you? Do you further understand the logical fallacy of begging the question? It basically says that the format of premises leading to a conclusion is a one way street Premises lead to conclusions and not the other way around
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Would you include the one from the stretcher or was that just a plant? I guess it does get confusing if you want to include the pristine bullet that rolled off the stretcher! I mean that "magic" bullet entered and exited 7 times and pretty much looks like it was pried off the end of a shell and left lying there as evidence to add to the sniper's nest cartridges found at that scene.
It looks like pretty convincing evidence if you want to steer your case in a particular direction and convicts someone in absentia.
It was not pristine. Check it for yourself if you want to be enlightened.
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Don't you love how the LNers claim that three shots came from a very specific location with NO supporting evidence, but then demand actual supporting evidence or proof from the CTers for a particular number of shots?
They do this all the time. They offer nothing but demand that you offer evidence in triplicate. A waste of time.
How's this for triplicate:
"Boom, click-click, Boom, click-click, Boom, click-click" -- Harold Norman
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It was not pristine. Check it for yourself if you want to be enlightened.
2003 Discovery Channel experiment results of replica human torso the MC bullet was extremely distorted when it came out and that WITHOUT even having to go then thru wrist bone BACKWARDs.
Experiment firing bullet at 900 ft/sec directly into human cadavier wrist bone, proves nothing, since it was nose 1st entry not backwards and had no prior force applied which is the force of going thru 2 bodies and rib bones. So a totally useless and irrelevant experiment.
Experiment proving MC bullet can be slowed from 2000 ft/sec to 0 ft/sec over 3 ft, and remain undeformed, was via firing a bullet thru 36 small cross cut pieces of pine board glued together :D YEA THAT PROVES SOMETHING I GUESS ::)
And the bullet didnt exit the throat of the1st torso, so they did not prove a straight line trajectory from JFK back thru the throat aligned with the entrance point in Gov Connallys back.
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How's this for triplicate:
"Boom, click-click, Boom, click-click, Boom, click-click" -- Harold Norman
Hmmmm.... Didn't Mr Norman say he heard the spent shells hitting the floor?
If Mr Norman wasn't prevaricating......then the noises he heard should have been...."Boom, click PLINK-click, Boom, click, PLINK-click, Boom, click PLINK-click" -- Harold Norman
The BOOM of course would be the muzzle blast.... the first CLICK would be the bolt being retracted ...the PLINK would be the brass shell hitting the floor....and the last CLICK would be the bolt being closed....
Me thinks Mr Norman was not an intelligent liar....
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The Connally's claimed John Connally was hit be a different bullet than JFK By extension they are admitting to one more bullet than the WC story. I don't have the Kellerman quote , but I remember it being something like it was raining bullets in the limo which is not consistent with two bullets hitting the limo And, while you may not like my perspective , statements that are initially challenging of the WC and then conform to the WC story while testifying still have significance for me.
Roy Kellerman was a drooling Secret Service kook [according to Gee Whiz Gee] :-\
Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint--
Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots...
Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.
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Roy Kellerman was a drooling Secret Service kook [according to Gee Whiz Gee] :-\
Whatever happened to “Howard” the Troll?
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Whatever happened to “Howard” the Troll?
Expired from a chronic case of Drooling Trollitus :-\
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(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/pavement3.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/pavement2.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/pavement1.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/pavement.jpg)
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/pdf/WH19_Decker_Ex_5323.pdf
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(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement4.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement3.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement2.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement1.jpg)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/hittingpavement.jpg)
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Hmmmm.... Didn't Mr Norman say he heard the spent shells hitting the floor?
If Mr Norman wasn't prevaricating......then the noises he heard should have been...."Boom, click PLINK-click, Boom, click, PLINK-click, Boom, click PLINK-click" -- Harold Norman
The BOOM of course would be the muzzle blast.... the first CLICK would be the bolt being retracted ...the PLINK would be the brass shell hitting the floor....and the last CLICK would be the bolt being closed....
Me thinks Mr Norman was not an intelligent liar....
You're falsely equating the environment Norman was in with you cycling a Carcano in a sterile setting.
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You're falsely equating the environment Norman was in with you cycling a Carcano in a sterile setting.
You're kidding.....Norman senses would have been on high alert..... so if he had actually heard the sounds ( especially the loud, ear shattering, muzzle blast) that he claimed he had heard, he would have immediately notified his companions that a gunman was firing a rifle on the floor above them. But It's very doubtful that Jarman and Norman would have needed Norman to tell them that a rifle was being fired on the floor above their heads.....They would also have heard the loud blasts of a rifle being fired.... Can you explain why only Norman heard the sounds?
And we know he didn't do that.....In fact he never mentioned anything about hearing "shells hitting the floor"until a couple of days had passed and after a few suggestive interviews with the FBI.
IMO, Norman was a simple kid and eager to please the authorities....