JFK Assassination Forum

General Discussion & Debate => General Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Wesley Johnson on March 20, 2018, 07:16:13 PM

Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 20, 2018, 07:16:13 PM
First off, I'm not asking this to provoke a fight. I'm just curious as to what some think about Oswald going to the movies, after the President was shot at, from the building he worked in. Some of the TSBD employees left after the shooting, but he was the only one not to return. He went home got his revolver and then went to the movies. Just seems like an odd thing to do, after something as historical as the president getting shot at, happened in front of where he worked.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 20, 2018, 07:25:28 PM

First off, I'm not asking this to provoke a fight. I'm just curious as to what some think about Oswald going to the movies, after the President was shot at, from the building he worked in. Some of the TSBD employees left after the shooting, but he was the only one not to return. He went home got his revolver and then went to the movies. Just seems like an odd thing to do, after something as historical as the president getting shot at, happened in front of where he worked.


Finally, you're asking a question and a good one at that. I've always wondered about that. It's a conundrum for sure, but then so is him going to a middle of nowhere place like 10th street. What in the world was he doing there, walking along with no obvious place to go, when he could have been on a bus out of town?

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 20, 2018, 07:27:42 PM
First off, I'm not asking this to provoke a fight. I'm just curious as to what some think about Oswald going to the movies, after the President was shot at, from the building he worked in. Some of the TSBD employees left after the shooting, but he was the only one not to return. He went home got his revolver and then went to the movies. Just seems like an odd thing to do, after something as historical as the president getting shot at, happened in front of where he worked.

Finally, you're asking a question and a good one at that. I've always wondered about that. It's a conundrum for sure, but then so is him going to a middle of nowhere place like 10th street. What in the world was he doing there, walking along with no obvious place to go, when he could have been on a bus out of town?


Great questions.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 20, 2018, 07:35:00 PM
Finally, you're asking a question and a good one at that. I've always wondered about that. It's a conundrum for sure, but then so is him going to a middle of nowhere place like 10th street. What in the world was he doing there, walking along with no obvious place to go, when he could have been on a bus out of town?

And that is a good question as well Martin. It just has seemed really odd, his actions. But then Ruby robbed us of ever knowing the answer.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 20, 2018, 07:38:28 PM
He wasn't the only one not to return. Is there any evidence that shows he got "his" revolver?

Who else did not return?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 20, 2018, 07:41:00 PM
He wasn't the only one not to return. Is there any evidence that shows he got "his" revolver?

Rob do you have any thoughts on why he went to the movies?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 20, 2018, 08:14:01 PM
He didn't go to the movies. Why did he go into the Texas theater? All you'll get is speculation.

Speculation is fine Steve. I just wanted some thoughts on it. I think he did go to the movies.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Anthony Clayden on March 20, 2018, 08:16:06 PM
On the night before, Oswald had gone to visit his wife in an attempt to restore their relationship. He was fond of his child and had another one coming. Marina rejected the rapprochement. For most people this would have left them emotionally distressed, what appeared to be final breakdown and not seeing his children. I cannot speak to Oswald actual frame of mind but the idea of hanging around work with no work to do for most people with that emotional situation from the night before. Going to the movies to escape how crap he was feeling would for most people make sense.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 20, 2018, 08:23:51 PM
On the night before, Oswald had gone to visit his wife in an attempt to restore their relationship. He was fond of his child and had another one coming. Marina rejected the rapprochement. For most people this would have left them emotionally distressed, what appeared to be final breakdown and not seeing his children. I cannot speak to Oswald actual frame of mind but the idea of hanging around work with no work to do for most people with that emotional situation from the night before. Going to the movies to escape how crap he was feeling would for most people make sense.

Thanks for your reply Anthony. Just so you know, his second child had already been born.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Anthony Clayden on March 20, 2018, 08:34:48 PM
Thanks for your reply Anthony. Just so you know, his second child had already been born.

Thanks for the correction on his 2nd child.
The other question that is often asked is why did he take his revolver to the movies.
I think given it is not implausible that he was planning to attempt suicide, he had tried previously whilst in the USSR when he had been rebuffed from something he had really wanted. Or he might have been wrestling with deciding  to shot Marina, marital violence during a breakdown is also not uncommon.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on March 20, 2018, 08:56:35 PM
Thanks for your reply Anthony. Just so you know, his second child had already been born.

Marina testified to the following about Lee asking her to move with him into an apartment:

Mrs. OSWALD. I said [to Lee that] it would be better if I remained with Ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. That this was better because while he was living alone and I stayed with Ruth, we were spending less money. And I told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand.
Mr. RANKIN. What did he say to that?
Mrs. OSWALD. He said he would buy me a washing machine.

Marina also said (I can't find the source to cite it) that he told her he was going to stay with her at the Paine residence that weekend but not Friday night because he had visited on Thursday.

There was nothing - from Marina's point of view - indicating their marriage was over. As she said above, she was hoping they would all get together for the holidays. Perhaps he thought differently.

And, of course, nowhere in his interrogation with the police did he mention a breakup with Marina as the cause for him going to the movies; which, apparently he sneaked into despite having about $18 on him.

It's possible but this is speculation based on, as far as I can see, no evidence whatsoever.

And oh yeah, why did he go to the movies?: He was escaping from the police because he had just shot one of their officers. Question: I've been outside when police cars went screaming by. I stood and stared at them and wondered what the hell was going on? Oswald apparently wasn't interested in all of that commotion. Why?

Marina's testimony on the above is here:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Dan DAlimonte on March 20, 2018, 09:06:22 PM
Hey, Wesley.  A few years back a comedian was making fun of Depends underwear
as to why any person would buy a product with such a name. 

Will this type of underwear be helpful in case I have an accident? 

Depends.

So, why did Oswald go to the movies?

Depends.

Was he the lone gunman and murdered Tippit as well?  Was he involved in a team?  Was he innocent
and afraid for his life?  Was he going to a safe house and he encountered and murdered Tippit?  Was he planning to kill someone else before he encountered Tippit?  Did he have his own escape plan where he would wait in the dark and leave at night?  Was he involved and went to the TT to meet his contact? 
And, on and on ...

Depends.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 20, 2018, 11:42:33 PM
First off, I'm not asking this to provoke a fight. I'm just curious as to what some think about Oswald going to the movies, after the President was shot at, from the building he worked in. Some of the TSBD employees left after the shooting, but he was the only one not to return.

That's false.

Quote
He went home got his revolver

That's unproven.

Quote
and then went to the movies. Just seems like an odd thing to do, after something as historical as the president getting shot at, happened in front of where he worked.

Who knows?  Why did anybody go to the movies that day?  Why did Buell Frazier go visit his step-father in the hospital after something as historical as the president getting shot at, happened in front of where he worked?

The mistake is in assuming that everything that happens must be significant.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Anderson on March 21, 2018, 12:57:22 AM
There's nothing to suggest their marriage was over.
Except she had been trying to get a visa to go back to Russia since February.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 21, 2018, 02:01:19 AM


Finally, you're asking a question and a good one at that. I've always wondered about that. It's a conundrum for sure, but then so is him going to a middle of nowhere place like 10th street. What in the world was he doing there, walking along with no obvious place to go, when he could have been on a bus out of town?



Could he have ordered a bus to come by and pick him up at the boarding house or would he have to walk somewhere? When my car is being repaired and I need to use public transportation, my experience is that I have to do a good deal of walking, particularly if I don?t want to wait for a few hours for a bus to come by that is going where I want to go. I have walked over two miles on occasion to pick up a bus I want.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 21, 2018, 02:08:17 AM


And that is a good question as well Martin. It just has seemed really odd, his actions. But then Ruby robbed us of ever knowing the answer.


Did it really? Would we have been able to trust implicitly whatever Oswald said? I think that whether Oswald lived or died people would still have to look at the facts to figure out what was most probable.

** Oswald arranged for a unique weeknight ride to where his wife was staying instead of the usual weekend ride.

** Oswald brought to work a long object wrapped in paper (it would be too embarrassing to be seen with curtain rods).

** Oswald was the only one at work who immediately left the Dealey Plaza area. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I understand a few others left the building to check out what happened from other people in the plaza. And then found themselves locked out of the building by the police. Only then did they go home.

** Oswald got on a bus and then immediately off when it was stuck in traffic.

** Oswald ordered his only taxi ride (quite an expense) that we know of during his life.



This seems pretty consistent to me. If Oswald lived and told me a different story, I probably would not believe him.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 21, 2018, 02:10:45 AM


He wasn't the only one not to return. Is there any evidence that shows he got "his" revolver?



Who else left the Dealey Plaza area immediately?

I understand a few other left the building to check out with people in the plaza what happened and then found themselves locked out when the police did not allow anyone to enter or leave. But I don?t know of anyone leaving immediately, let alone taking an expensive (for Oswald) taxi ride.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 21, 2018, 02:16:21 AM


When Lee went to work at the TSBD by bus, where was his usual bus stop?



Was there a bus scheduled to come by there within a half hour of 1:00 PM?

Would this bus take him to where he wants to go?



There are several bus stops within a half mile of where I live but I still usually have to walk some ways because the bus isn?t coming soon or it does come soon but it?s not going in the direction I want to go.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 21, 2018, 02:17:43 AM


What are you implying Joe?

Did Mr Truly know where Charles Givens was?



What evidence is there that Charles Givens left Dealey Plaza immediately?

Did he take a taxi?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 21, 2018, 03:51:01 AM
First off, I'm not asking this to provoke a fight. I'm just curious as to what some think about Oswald going to the movies, after the President was shot at, from the building he worked in. Some of the TSBD employees left after the shooting, but he was the only one not to return. He went home got his revolver and then went to the movies. Just seems like an odd thing to do, after something as historical as the president getting shot at, happened in front of where he worked.

LOL

I wouldn't call that merely going to the movies exactly. More likely a somewhat-more-urgent gimme shelter response.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 21, 2018, 04:30:12 AM


To Mr Truly, at that immediate time post assassination - Givens could have been the actual assassin or a co conspirator.

. . .

Givens was missing from the line up as well.

. . .

Why did Mr Truly report only Lee "missing"?



Oswald was the natural one for Mr. Truly to suspect. He saw a police officer point a gun at Oswald. He vouched for Oswald because he didn?t realize the shots came from that building, let alone from one of his employees. When he heard a rifle was found, naturally his mind would go back to Officer Baker pointing a gun at Oswald.

If Officer Baker had initially suspected Givens but Truly immediately focused on Oswald, that would be strange. But knowing the shots were fired from that building. The shooter might be one of his employees. And an officer initially suspected Oswald. Naturally his suspicious are going to be initially turned to Oswald. And enhanced when he also realizes he hasn?t seen Oswald since that encounter with Officer Baker.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Thomas on March 21, 2018, 12:13:57 PM
First off, I'm not asking this to provoke a fight. I'm just curious as to what some think about Oswald going to the movies, after the President was shot at,

Wesley,

You asked an interesting question in the context that this seems outside Lee Harvey Oswald's normal pattern of behavior. From everything I've ever read, LHO seemed to spend his leisure time reading books. It was either his housekeeper, or landlady that said he did watch TV sometimes, but what I've read, he preferred reading books of one sort or another.

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 21, 2018, 03:23:36 PM
You want "thoughts" (i.e. speculation) so you can discuss that instead of actually citing the evidence.

Rob I really don't care what your thoughts are about anything. You obviously are really obsessed with "Sinking the WC" why don't you write a book on it. You might even make some money. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Sean Kneringer on March 21, 2018, 07:44:18 PM
Because unlike the majority of Americans, who were huddled around televisions and radios to learn of the President's fate, he decided it was more important to see a Mickey Mouse short and a war movie. Totally normal behavior if you think about it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 21, 2018, 08:29:04 PM
Finally, you're asking a question and a good one at that. I've always wondered about that. It's a conundrum for sure, but then so is him going to a middle of nowhere place like 10th street. What in the world was he doing there, walking along with no obvious place to go, when he could have been on a bus out of town?

Lee went to the theater because that's where he'd been told to meet his contact......  As part of the hoax attempt to shoot JFK Lee thought that his contact would escort him out of the country where he could seek asylum  in Cuba.

There were three of Hoover's "Extra Special" Special agents in the Texas Theater before the police arrived......

Either those agents were as fast as lightning, and beat the cops to the theater or..........
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 21, 2018, 08:45:52 PM
** Oswald arranged for a unique weeknight ride to where his wife was staying instead of the usual weekend ride.

He had only had the job for a few weeks, and still it wasn't the only time he came to Irving on a different day.  What makes this "unique" in your mind?

Quote
** Oswald brought to work a long object wrapped in paper (it would be too embarrassing to be seen with curtain rods).

An object that both witnesses who saw it said was too short to hold the alleged murder weapon.

Quote
** Oswald was the only one at work who immediately left the Dealey Plaza area. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I understand a few others left the building to check out what happened from other people in the plaza. And then found themselves locked out of the building by the police. Only then did they go home.

Hang on.  What makes you so sure that Oswald didn't find himself locked out of the building by police?

Quote
** Oswald got on a bus and then immediately off when it was stuck in traffic.

The bus driver confused Milton Jones for Oswald.  So you're relying on Mary Bledsoe who doesn't even have any evidence that she ever rented a room to Oswald.  Her son "sold" the page out of her calendar that would have helped confirm her story.  Darn the luck.

Quote
** Oswald ordered his only taxi ride (quite an expense) that we know of during his life.

If he actually did take this taxi ride, it was a buck.  Roughly $8 in today's dollars.  Not exactly a fortune.  He made $1.25 an hour.

Quote
This seems pretty consistent to me. If Oswald lived and told me a different story, I probably would not believe him.

Consistent with what?  What does any of this have to do with murdering the president?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 21, 2018, 08:49:57 PM
Because unlike the majority of Americans, who were huddled around televisions and radios to learn of the President's fate, he decided it was more important to see a Mickey Mouse short and a war movie. Totally normal behavior if you think about it.

How can you be sure that Oswald even knew that the president was shot?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 21, 2018, 10:04:53 PM
How can you be sure that Oswald even knew that the president was shot?

Got any evidence that he didn't know to back that up Grand Poobah?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 21, 2018, 10:09:22 PM

Got any evidence that he didn't know to back that up Grand Poobah?


Hilarious...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on March 21, 2018, 10:20:36 PM
He went to the movies because he  had  no plans and was aimlessly walking around and the movie theater was there and cops were around.  I know even come LNs disagree with me but I don't think there is any chance that Oswald thought he was getting out of the TSBD and didn't plan on what do do if he did. He had no plans and no place to go.

If he had plans to get away he would have brought his pistol with him and would not have needed to go back to the rooming house. How did he know the cops were not going to bust him at the rooming house? I don't think there is any way someone could shoot a President in front of all of those people and cops and think they are going to just walk out of that building. Plus if he had any real plans he would have kept more money.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 21, 2018, 10:23:15 PM
Got any evidence that he didn't know to back that up Grand Poobah?

There you go again....
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 21, 2018, 11:54:37 PM
An object that both witnesses who saw it said was too short to hold the alleged murder weapon.

That's not at all what Frazier and Randle said.  Your spin of what they really said would be valid if they had actually been shown the alleged murder weapon and were then asked to compare it to the bag they saw Lee carrying that morning.  Since they were not shown the rifle, you're comment above is meaningless (and untrue).
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 12:19:24 AM
Because unlike the majority of Americans, who were huddled around televisions and radios to learn of the President's fate, he decided it was more important to see a Mickey Mouse short and a war movie. Totally normal behavior if you think about it.

Seems he was more interested in tennis shoes...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Gary Craig on March 22, 2018, 12:20:56 AM
A 34 inch long broken down Carcano doesn't fit in a 27 inch long bag.

Of course they could have been off by 7 inches.

It could have been twenty inches.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/twentyseven3.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/twentyseven2.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 12:26:08 AM

If he had plans to get away he would have brought his pistol with him and would not have needed to go back to the rooming house.

Where was he going with his pistol?

To meet his fate
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 12:35:23 AM
That's not at all what Frazier and Randle said.  Your spin of what they really said would be valid if they had actually been shown the alleged murder weapon and were then asked to compare it to the bag they saw Lee carrying that morning.  Since they were not shown the rifle, you're comment above is meaningless (and untrue).

My comment is perfectly true, and you're the one trying to spin it.  Both of them estimated the length of the bag to be a size that was too short to hold the alleged murder weapon.  Furthermore, they both said that the CE142 did not look like the bag they saw.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 12:39:07 AM
How can you be sure that Oswald even knew that the president was shot?

He double-checked

 ;)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 12:47:47 AM

The bus driver confused Milton Jones for Oswald. 

The bus driver identified Oswald in the line-up on Nov 22 as the man on his bus who was grinning about the President being shot. McWatters also identified the bus transfer that Oswald had on him as being one that he had punched. McWatters signed an affidavit attesting to both.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Gary Craig on March 22, 2018, 01:06:10 AM
The bus driver identified Oswald in the line-up on Nov 22 as the man on his bus who was grinning about the President being shot. McWatters also identified the bus transfer that Oswald had on him as being one that he had punched. McWatters signed an affidavit attesting to both.

He recanted his ID of Ozzie.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Cecil%20McWatters%20Recanted.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 22, 2018, 01:11:05 AM


He went to the movies because he  had  no plans and was aimlessly walking around and the movie theater was there and cops were around.  I know even come LNs disagree with me but I don't think there is any chance that Oswald thought he was getting out of the TSBD and didn't plan on what do do if he did. He had no plans and no place to go.

If he had plans to get away he would have brought his pistol with him and would not have needed to go back to the rooming house. How did he know the cops were not going to bust him at the rooming house? I don't think there is any way someone could shoot a President in front of all of those people and cops and think they are going to just walk out of that building. Plus if he had any real plans he would have kept more money.


I think this is exactly right. Except I don?t know any LNers who would disagree with you and say Oswald did have a plan for after the shooting. I think he did not expect to escape capture. He did not have any chance of shooting his way out of Dealey Plaza, so he did not bring a gun.

I don?t think he realized how hard it is to locate the source of a high gun shot. There is a tendency for people to assume the sound is coming from the same elevation they are at. Most people don?t look up when trying to locate the source of a sound. Owls can locate sounds in 3-D but we are better at locating sounds in 2-D, when the source is at the same elevation as us.

So I think Oswald was just putting distance between him and the boarding house, probably thinking about what to do next. Possibly try to catch a bus. Or maybe hop on a freight train. Who knows. He might not have decided yet when he was spotted by Officer Tippit, looking suspicious in some manner.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Sean Kneringer on March 22, 2018, 01:15:38 AM
How can you be sure that Oswald even knew that the president was shot?

Why else would he leave work early? He wasn't curious as to why a police officer was 1) in the building and 2) pointing a gun at him?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 01:15:59 AM
He did not have any chance of shooting his way out of Dealey Plaza, so he did not bring a gun.

He did not bring a gun.  Thanks Joe -- welcome to the dark side! :)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 01:17:13 AM
Why else would he leave work early? He wasn't curious as to why a police officer was 1) in the building and 2) pointing a gun at him?

He did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 01:17:22 AM
He recanted his ID of Ozzie.

Did he now? I'll wait to see what Mr Iacoletti has to say about that before I offer my own thoughts on it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 01:20:06 AM
He did not bring a gun.  Thanks Joe -- welcome to the dark side! :)

http://www.differencebetween.net/object/difference-between-gun-and-rifle/
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 01:20:11 AM
The bus driver identified Oswald in the line-up on Nov 22 as the man on his bus who was grinning about the President being shot.

Except the grinning man was Milton Jones.

Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.
Mr. BALL - That stayed on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - That stayed on the bus.
Mr. BALL - And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 01:22:32 AM
http://www.differencebetween.net/object/difference-between-gun-and-rifle/

Cool!

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 01:25:30 AM
...and while we're at it:

https://wikidiff.com/pistol/revolver (https://wikidiff.com/pistol/revolver)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 22, 2018, 01:26:18 AM


Lee never did anything to arouse any suspicion, in either Officer Baker nor Mr Truly. Mr Truly can not explain what made him single out Lee. How did Mr Truly know that Dougherty, alone on an upper floor, wasn't the assassin or a co conspirator?



You are in denial. Of course Mr. Truly is going to focus on Oswald.

How could Mr. Truly know that Oswald (I see you are on a first name basis with the creep) did not do anything to arouse suspicion? Truly didn?t initially see Oswald as he was going up the stairs. Only Officer Baker did.

How does he know what Officer Baker saw after Mr. Truly started up the next flight of stairs?

All Mr. Truly knew is:

1.   A rifle was found in the building, meaning one of his employees may have been the shooter.

2.   Mr. Truly vouched for one of his employees who was being held at gunpoint by a police officer. For all Mr. Truly knew, he may have helped the assassin make his getaway.

And on top of that, Mr. Truly does not recall seeing Oswald after that. Naturally he is going to focus on Oswald until he can learn whether Oswald is still in the building or not. If Oswald is still there, he can focus on other employees. Or relax a bit and let the police handle it. But until then, he is going to do everything he can to compensate for a possible error in vouching for Oswald.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 01:29:48 AM
Except the grinning man was Milton Jones.

Mr. BALL - Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?
Mr. McWATTERS - Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.
Mr. BALL - That stayed on the bus?
Mr. McWATTERS - That stayed on the bus.
Mr. BALL - And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer?
Mr. McWATTERS - No, sir.

He picked Oswald out of a line-up as having been a passenger on his bus. You're saying that what he said during the lineup and his signed affidavit should be disregarded in favor of what he said during his WC testimony?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 01:33:49 AM
Cool!

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.

That Brennan did not know that a rifle is not properly referred to as a gun does not negate the fact that Brennan saw an individual firing a rifle  from the sixth floor floor of the TSBD. Revolvers and pistols are not shouldered when fired.

Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 01:35:48 AM
All Mr. Truly knew is:

1.   A rifle was found in the building, meaning one of his employees may have been the shooter.

I don't think Truly knew about the rifle yet when he told Fritz that Oswald was missing.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 22, 2018, 01:57:12 AM
My comment is perfectly true, and you're the one trying to spin it.  Both of them estimated the length of the bag to be a size that was too short to hold the alleged murder weapon.  Furthermore, they both said that the CE142 did not look like the bag they saw.

No.  Your comment was not true at all.  Can you quote Linnie Mae Randle stating that the bag was too short "to hold the alleged murder weapon"?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Sean Kneringer on March 22, 2018, 02:22:38 AM
He did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day?

But that would mean something dramatic/tragic must have happened. Gee, I wonder what that was.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Joe Elliott on March 22, 2018, 02:49:42 AM


He did not bring a gun.  Thanks Joe -- welcome to the dark side! :)





A rifle is not a gun. It is a rifle. Oswald did not bring a gun. He brought a rifle.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 03:27:55 AM
Cool!

Mr. BRENNAN. Well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. As I calculate a couple of seconds. He drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared.

Tell us why Brennan calling the rifle a gun is important
Both weapons qualify as guns

Gun
A weapon incorporating a metal tube from which bullets, shells, or other missiles are propelled by explosive force, typically making a characteristic loud, sharp noise.



Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 03:42:17 AM
...and while we're at it:

https://wikidiff.com/pistol/revolver (https://wikidiff.com/pistol/revolver)

All that proves is that not all people are gun-nuts
Marina, Brennan etc indicated they knew little or nothing about guns.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 04:02:10 AM
Bill,

when are you going to finally stop playing your childish word games?

The most critical observation was that on the night of 22/11/1963 - in front of Law Enforcement Officers - neither LMR nor BWF recognized an unstained CE 142 as being in the possession of Lee Harvey Oswald that very morning.

When is it going to finally sink into your head?

The FBI expert made it absolutely clear - CE 142 was an oblong shaped home made paper bag that was 38 inches in length, with an open untapered and untaped end. In addition, there was NO evidence that any weapon was inside it.

The bag was found in the sniper's nest with Oswald's prints on it. It was long enough for Oswald to carry his rifle in. Linnie Mae's original estimate of its length was about three feet.  You cannot get around those facts no matter how hard you try. Frazier admitted that he never paid any attention to the bag.  He has a record of being unobservant and of underestimating the length of objects.   Linnie Mae's original estimate is almost dead on.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 04:07:45 AM



A rifle is not a gun. It is a rifle. Oswald did not bring a gun. He brought a rifle.

Maybe his 'gun' (as defined in the Full Metal Jacket scene) was more of a pea-shooter

The basic definition of gun includes rifles, revolvers, pistols, shotguns... and even anti-aircraft guns FFS... not to mention staple guns, grease guns
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 04:23:30 AM
I think this is exactly right. Except I don?t know any LNers who would disagree with you and say Oswald did have a plan for after the shooting. I think he did not expect to escape capture. He did not have any chance of shooting his way out of Dealey Plaza, so he did not bring a gun.

So I think Oswald was just putting distance between him and the boarding house, probably thinking about what to do next. Possibly try to catch a bus. Or maybe hop on a freight train. Who knows. He might not have decided yet when he was spotted by Officer Tippit, looking suspicious in some manner.

Arguably, the Walker incident sets a precedent regarding Oswald's maybe not expecting to come back from a night on the town... or a day at the office.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Colin Crow on March 22, 2018, 04:29:47 AM
The bag was found in the sniper's nest with Oswald's prints on it. It was long enough for Oswald to carry his rifle in. Linnie Mae's original estimate of its length was about three feet.  You cannot get around those facts no matter how hard you try. Frazier admitted that he never paid any attention to the bag.  He has a record of being unobservant and of underestimating the length of objects.   Linnie Mae's original estimate is almost dead on.

A bag was recovered at some time after the rifle was discovered, somewhere near the SE corner of the 6th floor on the afternoon of the assassination by someone. Det Studebaker claimed he fingerprinted the bag and found a partial print and placed tape over it. It was removed from the building by Det. Montgomery around 3pm and placed into evidence at DPD. It was sent to the FBI labs via Vincent Drain around midnight. The labs found no tape but developed a separate  finger and palm print using silver nitrate and identified them to be Oswalds. Linnie May Randle was interviewed by the FBI, who claimed she estimated the length to be around 3 feet. She later testified that the package was close to the length consistently estimated by her brother.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 04:45:38 AM
By whom?

Studebaker didn't find any prints on CE 142. The prints were found outside of the TSBD in the possession of the FBI. Does that mean Lee constructed CE 142?


was about three feet. 


Please - I don't know whether you are joking or trying to yank my chain Tim. LMR who was behind a window cleaning the dishes and took a quick glance at Lee now made the most accurate guesstimate yet fails to recognize it that evening nor could construct one of the correct size? Spare me Tim. That's equivalent to Jack Dougherty failing to see the 38 inch paper bag because he was looking at the corner of his eye.

Frazier admitted that he never paid any attention to the bag

and one thing that destroys ALL of your arguments was that BWF made a direct observation of how Lee carried the paper bag  from only a few feet away. We BOTH know what he said and you have seen my thread.

It never ceases to amaze me Tim, how you attribute super powers to the weakest of witnesses. Hold on - YES I do know why.

CE 142 was never in Lee's possession that morning - we have LMR, BWF and JED to tell us that Tim.

Read BWF's testimony again - you will be left with no doubt what he observed. If you don't believe it take it up with BWF.

He was the man who drove the assassin to work FFS. He would face the death penalty if convicted. Duh.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 04:54:39 AM
By whom?

Studebaker didn't find any prints on CE 142. The prints were found outside of the TSBD in the possession of the FBI. Does that mean Lee constructed CE 142?


was about three feet. 


Please - I don't know whether you are joking or trying to yank my chain Tim. LMR who was behind a window cleaning the dishes and took a quick glance at Lee now made the most accurate guesstimate yet fails to recognize it that evening nor could construct one of the correct size? Spare me Tim. That's equivalent to Jack Dougherty failing to see the 38 inch paper bag because he was looking at the corner of his eye.

Frazier admitted that he never paid any attention to the bag

and one thing that destroys ALL of your arguments was that BWF made a direct observation of how Lee carried the paper bag  from only a few feet away. We BOTH know what he said and you have seen my thread.

It never ceases to amaze me Tim, how you attribute super powers to the weakest of witnesses. Hold on - YES I do know why.

CE 142 was never in Lee's possession that morning - we have LMR, BWF and JED to tell us that Tim.

Read BWF's testimony again - you will be left with no doubt what he observed. If you don't believe it take it up with BWF.

Oswald's prints were on the bag. That means that he handled the bag. No prints of the other employees of the TSBD were found on the bag. Oswald's rifle, broken down, would fit inside of that bag. It was found it the sniper's nest near the shell casings that had been fired in Oswald's rifle. Linnie Mae's description of the bag she saw matched with that bag.  Frazier admitted that Oswald could have carried the bag in such a way that it's full length would not have been viewable to him. If you have a problem with that take it up with him, The logical conclusion is that Oswald made that bag and carried his rifle in it that morning.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 04:57:57 AM
A bag was recovered at some time after the rifle was discovered, somewhere near the SE corner of the 6th floor on the afternoon of the assassination by someone. Det Studebaker claimed he fingerprinted the bag and found a partial print and placed tape over it. It was removed from the building by Det. Montgomery around 3pm and placed into evidence at DPD. It was sent to the FBI labs via Vincent Drain around midnight. The labs found no tape but developed a separate  finger and palm print using silver nitrate and identified them to be Oswalds. Linnie May Randle was interviewed by the FBI, who claimed she estimated the length to be around 3 feet. She later testified that the package was close to the length consistently estimated by her brother.

Original statements generally carry more weight than statements made later on. do they not? By "testified that the package was close to the length consistently estimated by her brother" you mean she said it was 27 inches in length right?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:11:26 AM
Did Lee construct CE 142 - yes or no?

Yes.

Quote
No one else's prints mattered Tim. The FBI expert only developed the ones belonging to Lee.

You mean that there were no other identifiable prints on the bag? How does that help your client?

Quote
By who?

By DPD officers.

Quote
But it wasnt CE 142 Tim.

Nonsense

Quote
BS - that's not what he said in 1963 or 1964 or even now. Bugliosi wanted to add doubt, but BWF corrected himself when questioned by Gerry Spence. Don't add CRAP, Tim.

Corrected himself how?

Quote
No Tim - there is nothing to support that.

Nothing but the evidence.

Quote
There never was one eye witness who saw Lee with CE 142 - folded or unfolded.

Frazier and his sister both saw Oswald with CE 142. Oswald lied to his interviewers, saying that he never carried a long package to work that morning and that he never told Frazier that he brought curtains rods with him. Deal with that Mr Defense Attorney.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:17:34 AM
On the NIGHT of 22/11/1963 - neither BWF (even after being heavily interrogated, placed on a polygraph machine and threatened physical violence by Captain Fritz) or LMR could ID CE142 as being the paper bag in Lee's possession some 16 hours prior.

Anything after that is in your imagination Tim.

Frazier was not threatened with physical violence by Fritz or anyone else.  While on the polygraph machine, Frazier stated that the paper bag shown to him was possibly the same one that Oswald had with him. The problem was that Frazier had simply not paid enough attention to the bag that morning to be able to say definitively that it was or was not the same bag.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:46:23 AM
Frazier stated that the paper bag shown to him was possibly the same one that Oswald had with him

Good Lord Tim! 38 inches X 8.5 inches is not "2 feet, give or take a few inches by 5 - 6 inches". Why are you denying this Tim?


Tony , you really are desperate. You keep referring to the dimensions of the bag when it is empty. The package was 35 inches long by about 6 inches in width.

Quote
Frazier was not threatened with physical violence

You don't think this was SOP for Captain Will Fritz?

The officers who spoke of Fritz over the years all spoke very highly of him. Being physically violent with a witness was not his SOP.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:48:23 AM
Tim ,

You can not simply create your own version of events when the very eyewitnesses that were there were telling the authorizes that none of them saw CE 142 in Lee's possession. Deal with it.

Deal with that Mr Defense Attorney

I have more proof of it being constructed after the rifle was found than you will ever have of Lee doing the same the day prior.

Oswald lied to his interviewers, saying that he never carried a long package to work that morning and that he never told Frazier that he brought curtains rods with him. Deal with that Mr Defense Attorney.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 06:03:56 AM
Irrelevant if Lee didn't have CE 142 in his possession Tim.

It is relevant and it's something that you cannot just dismiss or wish away. It has to be dealt with. How would you do so in front of a jury? Why would Oswald deny that he carried a long package to work that morning and deny that he told Frazier that it was curtain rods?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 06:07:29 AM

Recognize the "players" Tim and their MO?

https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2016/may/henry-wade-executed-innocent-man/

Fast forward to 22/11/1963.

Not that crap again Tony. It a bullshit story by a discredited author. Mary Mapes of the "Fake but accurate" story that got her and Dan Rather fired from CBS.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 06:17:55 AM
Because he actually maybe telling the truth, Tim.

Lee's version of events were never tested in court, in the presence of BWF and LMR because he was assassinated himself.

WTF? So now you have both BWF and LMR committing perjury? LOL! Tony, maybe you need to take up a different hobby.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 06:23:09 AM
Of course it is Tim  ;D Always a BS story when a defenseless young Negro is electrocuted for a crime he never committed and Wade and Fritz come up smelling like roses. right?

Texas, right?

Dan Rather

Needed to be fired for the stunt he pulled with his mock up of CE 142.

Tony, your use of the term "Negro" could get you labeled as a racist. Tommy Walker was convicted of committing a very heinous crime. The woman that he raped and murdered was defenseless. He was not.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 12:44:53 PM
Frazier was not threatened with physical violence by Fritz or anyone else.  While on the polygraph machine, Frazier stated that the paper bag shown to him was possibly the same one that Oswald had with him. The problem was that Frazier had simply not paid enough attention to the bag that morning to be able to say definitively that it was or was not the same bag.

While on the polygraph machine, Frazier stated that the paper bag shown to him was possibly the same one that Oswald had with him.

This is at best a massive misrepresentation of the truth.

At 11.30 pm on 11/22/63 Frazier was being polygraphed by DPD detective R.D. Lewis. During this session, Frazier was shown the paper bag that had been found at the TSBD, which at that time (except for the fact that it had been dusted in vain for prints at the TSBD) was still in its original state. Frazier could not identify the bag as the one he had seen Oswald carry, some 16 / 17 hours earlier and the polygraph did not register an anomaly.

According to a report by FBI agent Vincent Drain, dated December 1, 1963, the polygrapher R.D. Lewis stated that Frazier had told him that the ?crickly brown paper sack? Oswald had carried did not resemble the ?home made heavy paper gun case? the DPD officers had shown him. Drain added that Lewis referred to the bag as ?paper gun case? because ?the DPD is of the opinion the brown heavy paper was used by Oswald to carry the rifle into the building?.

A memo from FBI agent James Anderton to SAC Dallas, dated 11/29/63, reveals the desperation of Lt. Day after Frazier failed to identify the heavy bag found at the TSBD. Anderton writes that, according to Lt Day, Frazier described the bag Oswald had carried as "definitely a thin, flimsy sack like the one purchased in a dime store". The memo then goes on to say;

"Lt. Day states that he and other officers have surmised that Oswald, by dismantling the rifle, could have placed it in the thick brown sack folder over, and then placed the entire package in the flimsy paper sack"

The obvious question is why Day was so desperate to explain the discrepancy between the heavy bag allegedly found on the 6th floor of the TSBD and the flimsy bag Frazier had seen that he would come up with this silly theory. Even more so, if Oswald's prints had really been found on the heavy bag and the MC rifle ......

So, what else did Frazier say or do in those early days? Well, for one thing he corrected and initialed his own affidavit. Where it used the word ?bag? he crossed it out and replaced it with ?sack?. For some reason that distinction was important to him.

And then of course there was the Odum and McNeely report of December 2, 1963. They quote Frazier as saying that ?the package was wrapped in a cheap, crinkly, thin paper sack, such as that provided by Five and Ten Cent Stores?

So we have at least two occasions shortly after the event where Frazier qualifies the paper bag as "definitely a thin, flimsy sack like the one purchased in a dime store" and ?a cheap, crinkly, thin paper sack, such as that provided by Five and Ten Cent Stores?.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,72.0.html

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on March 22, 2018, 01:23:22 PM
The best evidence of the bag's size will always be the bag itself since it was found and can be measured.  There is no reason to rely on someone's estimate.  And go to endless absurd pedantic lengths in an attempt to ignore that the bag exists.  It is classic CTer nonsense to nitpick every word of testimony and suggest everyone was in on the frame up while ignoring the elephant in the room.  Frazier may honestly but erroneously believe the bag found was not the one he saw Oswald carry.  He is mistaken.  The bag was found.  It has Oswald's prints on it.  It's location suggests a connection to the assassination.  There is no work related explanation for it to have been there.  No one in 50 plus years who worked in the building ever provided any explanation for such a bag to have been there or indicated it belonged to them.  No bag matching Frazier's estimate was ever found.  Oswald himself denied carrying a bag as described by Frazier.  The bag found on the 6th floor was used by Oswald to carry the rifle that morning.  That is what happened and how it will be recorded in history. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 01:30:59 PM
The best evidence of the bag's size will always be the bag itself since it was found and can be measured.  There is no reason to rely on someone's estimate.  And go to endless absurd pedantic lengths in an attempt to ignore that the bag exists.  It is classic CTer nonsense to nitpick every word of testimony and suggest everyone was in on the frame up while ignoring the elephant in the room.  Frazier may honestly but erroneously believe the bag found was not the one he saw Oswald carry.  He is mistaken.  The bag was found.  It has Oswald's prints on it.  It's location suggests a connection to the assassination.  There is no work related explanation for it to have been there.  No one in 50 plus years who worked in the building ever provided any explanation for such a bag to have been there or indicated it belonged to them.  No bag matching Frazier's estimate was ever found.  Oswald himself denied carrying a bag as described by Frazier.  The bag found on the 6th floor was used by Oswald to carry the rifle that morning.  That is what happened and how it will be recorded in history.

Oh boy... here we go again.

Sorry Richard, I have no interest whatsoever to reply to the same crappy arguments again. Anybody who wants to read this very same discussion can click the link in my previous post. There all your misrepresentations, outright lies and strawman arguments have already been destroyed...

Not that you will ever accept or admit that, but who cares?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Gary Craig on March 22, 2018, 01:54:09 PM
(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/fritzstandingonpaperbag.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/MASO_nary-wcdocs-37_0017_0043.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 22, 2018, 02:05:45 PM
He picked Oswald out of a line-up as having been a passenger on his bus. You're saying that what he said during the lineup and his signed affidavit should be disregarded in favor of what he said during his WC testimony?


You're saying that what he said during the lineup and his signed affidavit should be disregarded in favor of what he said during his WC testimony?

This illustrates the crux of the problem.....   The Warren Commission was nothing but a cover up committee that was created by LBJ to gather the incriminating evidence and destroy it.

The egotistical suckers who were suckered into accepting the WC ( commonly referred to as LNers)  as a legitimate investigation always point to the warped testimony created by the WC as the final word on any aspect of the case.

Many times the testimony of a witness is in direct conflict with what that witness reported on the day of the murder....

Case in point:....  Howard Brennan clearly stated the the man he saw aiming a rifle from a sixth floor window was wearing light colored khaki clothing.   Lee Oswald never even owned any light colored khaki clothing ...and he most certainly was not attired in light colored khaki clothing at the time that JFK was murdered.

Egotistical suckers like Tim will make complete asses of themselves by accepting the testimony that was created by LBJ's commission as the gospel ..... Just as Tim did here.....

You're saying that what he said during the lineup and his signed affidavit should be disregarded in favor of what he said during his WC testimony?


Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 22, 2018, 02:41:12 PM
Tony, I hope you're not questioning Day's integrity; that might upset Tim...

There's no question about Detective J.C. Day's integrity.....   He had none.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 03:58:27 PM

maybe you need to take up a different hobby

You too if you believe you can determine a bullet entry point at specifically C6 to the exclusion of any other vertebrae.

I've never determined the bullet entry point to be  specifically at C6 to the exclusion of any other vertebrae. You really ought to move to a cooler climate area Tony.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 04:10:27 PM
While on the polygraph machine, Frazier stated that the paper bag shown to him was possibly the same one that Oswald had with him.

This is at best a massive misrepresentation of the truth.


Are you claiming that Lewis never told Drain that Frazier said that it was possible that the bag shown to him was the case he had seen Oswald carrying?

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 04:22:57 PM

Are you claiming that Lewis never told Drain that Frazier said that it was possible that the bag shown to him was the case he had seen Oswald carrying?


No.. I am claiming that you misrepresent the truth by leaving out that - according to Lewis - Frazier had actually said "that it was possible that it was the case, but he did not think it resembled it"

Misrepresenting the truth only makes your arguments weaker, Tim.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 04:32:47 PM
No.. I am claiming that you misrepresent the truth by leaving out that - according to Lewis - Frazier had actually said "that it was possible that it was the case, but he did not think it resembled it"

Misrepresenting the truth only makes your arguments weaker, Tim.

You claimed that it was a massive misrepresentation of the truth on my part. When in fact, I didn't misrepresent the truth at all. What I stated was 100% factual.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 04:39:11 PM

You claimed that it was a massive misrepresentation of the truth on my part. When in fact, I didn't misrepresent the truth at all. What I stated was 100% factual.


Leaving out on purpose crucial information that negates or qualifies a previous statement is a misrepresentation of the truth.

Are you really this desperate?


Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 04:46:32 PM
He picked Oswald out of a line-up as having been a passenger on his bus. You're saying that what he said during the lineup and his signed affidavit should be disregarded in favor of what he said during his WC testimony?

I'm saying that he thought the guy he identified in the lineup was the grinning man who stayed on the bus.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 04:46:56 PM
Leaving out on purpose crucial information that negates or qualifies a previous statement is a misrepresentation of the truth.

Are you really this desperate?

I'm not desperate.Nor am I stupid. Claiming that I massively misrepresented the truth is just plain stupid. What I stated was the truth. Not one word of it was a lie or a misrepresentation of the truth.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 04:48:06 PM
That Brennan did not know that a rifle is not properly referred to as a gun does not negate the fact that Brennan saw an individual firing a rifle  from the sixth floor floor of the TSBD. Revolvers and pistols are not shouldered when fired.

Mr. BRENNAN. I am not an expert on guns. It was, as I could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle.

So now we're back to Joe's statement that Oswald did not bring a gun.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 04:49:36 PM
No.  Your comment was not true at all.  Can you quote Linnie Mae Randle stating that the bag was too short "to hold the alleged murder weapon"?

She estimated the bag to be 27 inches long, which was too short to hold the alleged murder weapon.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Gary Craig on March 22, 2018, 04:50:44 PM
Mr. BALL. Did Frazier ever tell you how long the package was?
Mr. FRITZ. He just measured, told me about that long.
Mr. BALL. Approximately how long?
Mr. FRITZ. I am guessing at this, the way he measured, probably 26 inches, 27 inches, something like that. Too short for the length of that rifle unless he took it down, I presume he took it down if it was in there, and I am sure it was.
.

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/twentyseven3.jpg)

(http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/twentyseven2.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 04:51:51 PM
But that would mean something dramatic/tragic must have happened. Gee, I wonder what that was.

My question was, "how can you be sure that Oswald even knew that the president was shot?"

Not, "how can you be sure that Oswald knew that something dramatic happened?"
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 04:52:57 PM
Tell us why Brennan calling the rifle a gun is important
Both weapons qualify as guns

Take it up with Joe.  He's the one making the distinction.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 04:55:42 PM
All that proves is that not all people are gun-nuts
Marina, Brennan etc indicated they knew little or nothing about guns.

Granted, but how about police captains and officers and FBI agents?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:01:10 PM
The bag was found in the sniper's nest

You forgot the "allegedly".

Quote
with Oswald's prints on it. It was long enough for Oswald to carry his rifle in.

"his rifle".  LOL.

But so what?  A lot of things are long enough to carry a rifle in.  That doesn't somehow prove that a rifle was carried in in them.

Quote
Linnie Mae's original estimate of its length was about three feet.

Correction:  Bookhout reported that Linnie Mae's estimate was about 3 feet.

Quote
  You cannot get around those facts no matter how hard you try.

There's nothing to get around.  You can't place a rifle in CE142 and you can't place CE142 as the bag that Frazier and Randle saw Oswald carrying.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:03:37 PM
Arguably, the Walker incident sets a precedent regarding Oswald's maybe not expecting to come back from a night on the town... or a day at the office.

"Arguably" is putting it mildly, since you don't have any real evidence that Oswald was involved in the Walker shooting.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:05:03 PM
He was the man who drove the assassin to work FFS. He would face the death penalty if convicted. Duh.

I didn't realize that driving an assassin to work was an actual crime.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:12:57 PM
Oswald's prints were on the bag. That means that he handled the bag.

If the identification was correct, yes.

But how does that prove that a rifle was ever in the bag?

Quote
It was found it the sniper's nest near the shell casings that had been fired in Oswald's rifle.

"Oswald's rifle".  LOL.

But what time did did this bag actually show up "in the sniper's nest"?

Quote
Linnie Mae's description of the bag she saw matched with that bag.

Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar?
Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long.

Quote
  Frazier admitted that Oswald could have carried the bag in such a way that it's full length would not have been viewable to him.

How?  For it to be the bag you want it to be, it would have to have been held out in front of him at a 45 degree angle for it not to stick up over his shoulder.  Pity that dishonest Bugliosi didn't actually demonstrate how Oswald "could have carried the bag in such a way".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 05:14:44 PM
I'm not desperate.Nor am I stupid. Claiming that I massively misrepresented the truth is just plain stupid. What I stated was the truth. Not one word of it was a lie or a misrepresentation of the truth.

You may not be stupid, but you seem to think everybody else is.

Let's try this another way. If I say; "it could be but I don't think Oswald killed Kennedy for fun"

You would claim I said that I don't think Oswald killed Kennedy, right?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:15:32 PM
Frazier and his sister both saw Oswald with CE 142. Oswald lied to his interviewers, saying that he never carried a long package to work that morning and that he never told Frazier that he brought curtains rods with him.

You're entitled to your own opinion.  You're not entitled to your own facts.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:27:30 PM
Frazier was not threatened with physical violence by Fritz or anyone else.

"and in comes Captain Will Fritz, who I have never seen in my life, never talked to. He brought in a typed statement, and he had a pen. He says here, sign this. He gave me a pen. I started reading it. Well, they wanted me to confess to being part of or having knowledge of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. I read about two sentences of that, and I looked at him and I said that's ludicrous. I said I'm not signing that. So he drew his hand back to hit me, and I did my arm up like this because he was over here like you are. I told him -- I said -- he got very red-faced. He wasn't a real big man for his physical stature, but I hear he had a temper. Anyway, he -- I told him, I said, you know, I know there's policemen outside of the door. I said when they get in, you and I are going to have a hell of a fight."

https://www.c-span.org/video/?313792-1/lee-harvey-oswald-kennedy-assassination&start=2757 (https://www.c-span.org/video/?313792-1/lee-harvey-oswald-kennedy-assassination&start=2757)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:33:22 PM
Tony , you really are desperate. You keep referring to the dimensions of the bag when it is empty. The package was 35 inches long by about 6 inches in width.

How could you possibly know how long his package was?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:37:43 PM
WTF? So now you have both BWF and LMR committing perjury? LOL! Tony, maybe you need to take up a different hobby.

We don't know what Fritz asked Oswald.  He could have handed CE142 to Oswald and lied saying that BWF and LMR told us you carried this to work this morning.  And Oswald denied it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:38:29 PM
Tony, your use of the term "Negro" could get you labeled as a racist.

What's racist about the word Negro?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:41:39 PM
The best evidence of the bag's size will always be the bag itself since it was found and can be measured.

Circular argument -- it's the same bag because it's the same bag.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:43:29 PM
"and in comes captain will fritz, who I have never seen in my life, never talked to. He brought in a typed statement, and he had a pen. He says here, sign this. He gave me a pen. I started reading it. Well, they wanted me to confess to being part of or having knowledge of the assassination of John F. Kennedy. I read about two sentences of that, and I looked at him and I said that's ludicrous. I said I'm not signing that. So he drew his hand back to hit me, and I did my arm up like this because he was over here like you are. I told him -- I said -- he got very red-faced. He wasn't a real big man for his physical stature, but I hear he had a temper. Anyway, he -- I told him, I said, you know, I know there's policemen outside of the door. I said when they get in, you and I are going to have a hell of a fight."

https://www.c-span.org/video/?313792-1/lee-harvey-oswald-kennedy-assassination&start=2757 (https://www.c-span.org/video/?313792-1/lee-harvey-oswald-kennedy-assassination&start=2757)

That was Frazier speaking in 2013. Are we going to go by what he said that year and forward?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:46:50 PM
What's racist about the word Negro?

I personally don't think that it is a racist term. There are many who do though and , if I remember correctly,  Bill Brown was raked over the coals a few years back for using here on this forum.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:48:08 PM
You may not be stupid, but you seem to think everybody else is.

Let's try this another way. If I say; "it could be but I don't think Oswald killed Kennedy for fun"

You would claim I said that I don't think Oswald killed Kennedy, right?

LOL Martin. Your attempt at an analogy fails miserably.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:48:58 PM
That was Frazier speaking in 2013. Are we going to go by what he said that year and forward?

Is there some reason not to?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 05:50:16 PM

That was Frazier speaking in 2013. Are we going to go by what he said that year and forward?


I don't know if Frazier never told this story earlier, but let's go with 2013 being the first time he told the story publicly.

What do you say, Tim, does the fact that he did not tell it sooner somehow mean it's not true and it never happened?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:51:10 PM
I'm not desperate.Nor am I stupid. Claiming that I massively misrepresented the truth is just plain stupid. What I stated was the truth. Not one word of it was a lie or a misrepresentation of the truth.

Now you're playing Bill Brown word games.  You misrepresented the truth by leaving out the part of the quote that undermines your argument.

"Frazier said that it was possible this was the case, but he did not think it resembled it."
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 05:51:20 PM

LOL Martin. Your attempt at an analogy fails miserably.


Why?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 05:51:38 PM
Truly wouldn't allow all employees to be fingerprinted; explaining that it would slow down production.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:53:03 PM
Is there some reason not to?

Ok, so yes then?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 05:53:28 PM
Truly wouldn't allow all employees to be fingerprinted; explaining that it would slow down production.

BS... as if that would have stopped the investigators.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:54:52 PM
I don't know if Frazier never told this story earlier, but let's go with 2013 being the first time he told the story publicly.

What do you say, Tim, does the fact that he did not tell it sooner somehow mean it's not true and it never happened?

Is that a yes from you as well? We are going to go by what he said that year and forward?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 05:56:54 PM
Is that a yes from you as well? We are going to go by what he said that year and forward?

Where is this leading?  Does this contradict anything he said prior to 2013?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:58:06 PM
Now you're playing Bill Brown word games.  You misrepresented the truth by leaving out the part of the quote that undermines your argument.

"Frazier said that it was possible this was the case, but he did not think it resembled it."

I'm not playing word games at all. I said that Frazier stated that it was possible that it was the same case. That's all I said. There is no untruth in that.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 05:59:06 PM
Where is this leading?  Does this contradict anything he said prior to 2013?

Why not just answer the question with a yes or no?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 06:01:56 PM
Now you're playing Bill Brown word games.  You misrepresented the truth by leaving out the part of the quote that undermines your argument.

"Frazier said that it was possible this was the case, but he did not think it resembled it."

That's right. Frazier definitely did not see Oswald carrying a bag covered in fingerprint powder.

A lot of 'could haves' in this case. Or in other words 'cannot totally dismiss'
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 06:07:37 PM
Why not just answer the question with a yes or no?

It's a loaded question.  Of what relevance is the year that the interview took place if it doesn't contradict something he said earlier? How does that equate to "we are going to go by what he said that year and forward"?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
That's right. Frazier definitely did not see Oswald carrying a bag covered in fingerprint powder.

Yeah, because fingerprint powder turns flimsy and crinkly paper into thick wrapping paper.

 ::)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 06:20:04 PM
LOL. Are you now switching ponies and claiming the investigators competent?

Re Truly, I didn't make that up. Perhaps you need to drill down rather deeper into your 'research'
And are you claiming all employees in the building were fingerprinted?


Are you now switching ponies and claiming the investigators competent?

I'm not switching anything and I have come across the claim about Truly before. It was a pointless comment back then and still is today.

Truly's objections would have been worthless if the investigators wanted to fingerprint everybody in the building.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 22, 2018, 06:20:08 PM
It's a loaded question.  Of what relevance is the year that the interview took place if it doesn't contradict something he said earlier? How does that equate to "we are going to go by what he said that year and forward"?

If he does say things that contradict what he said earlier, doesn't that raise doubt about all of his later statements?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 06:25:59 PM
Yeah, because fingerprint powder turns flimsy and crinkly paper into thick wrapping paper.

 ::)

Randle did not describe the bag she saw Oswald carrying as 'flimsy and crinkly'
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 06:27:35 PM

Randle did not describe the bag she saw Oswald carrying as 'flimsy and crinkly'


Perhaps she just wasn't close enough to see.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 06:47:28 PM

I'm not playing word games at all. I said that Frazier stated that it was possible that it was the same case. That's all I said. There is no untruth in that.


Sure Tim. I get it. You do indeed think that everybody else is stupid!

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 06:54:46 PM
Perhaps she just wasn't close enough to see.

Randle described in testimony what she saw. Pretty sure she said it was heavier paper than a normal shopping bag (and darker if I recall correctly)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 07:06:25 PM
Are you now switching ponies and claiming the investigators competent?

I'm not switching anything and I have come across the claim about Truly before. It was a pointless comment back then and still is today.

Truly's objections would have been worthless if the investigators wanted to fingerprint everybody in the building.

'If they wanted'

Are you sure people couldn't claim their right to privacy and demand to be shown 'just cause'
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 07:09:49 PM
'If they wanted'

Are you sure people couldn't claim their right to privacy and demand to be shown 'just cause'

Sure, they could claim that....

But that's another matter and has nothing to do with Truly's objections.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 22, 2018, 07:16:28 PM
Sure, they could claim that....

But that's another matter and has nothing to do with Truly's objections.

It's the very crux of the matter when taken in context with Truly objecting to having 'innocent people' fingerprinted.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 22, 2018, 07:30:04 PM
It's the very crux of the matter when taken in context with Truly objecting to having 'innocent people' fingerprinted.

Whatever floats your boat
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on March 22, 2018, 08:50:45 PM
Circular argument -- it's the same bag because it's the same bag.

There is nothing circular about this Inspector Ding-a-Ling except your IQ.  What is the best evidence of an object's size?  Someone's estimate or measuring the object itself?  Surely a lazy contrarian, defense attorney would acknowledge that witnesses are often wrong as to details? 

So what needs to be explained if this is not Oswald's bag:  1) bad luck by Old Lee to have touched and left his prints on this particular bag (the only TSBD employee to have done so); 2) its location near the SN; 3) no bag matching Frazier's estimate ever being found; 4) Oswald himself denying he carried any bag along the size estimated by Frazier; 5) multiple DPD officers confirming the bag was found on the 6th floor; 6) no apparent work-related purpose for such a bag to be in the TSBD; 7) no one else ever coming forward who worked in the building to indicate it was their bag or who could explain its presence (50 plus years and counting).

What needs to be explained if this is Oswald's bag:  1)  Frazier was off in his estimate of its length.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 22, 2018, 08:57:59 PM
There is nothing circular about this Inspector Ding-a-Ling except your IQ.  What is the best evidence of an object's size?  Someone's estimate or measuring the object itself?  Surely a lazy contrarian, defense attorney would acknowledge that witnesses are often wrong as to details? 

So what needs to be explained if this is not Oswald's bag:  1) bad luck by Old Lee to have touched and left his prints on this particular bag (the only TSBD employee to have done so); 2) its location near the SN; 3) no bag matching Frazier's estimate ever being found; 4) Oswald himself denying he carried any bag along the size estimated by Frazier; 5) multiple DPD officers confirming the bag was found on the 6th floor; 6) no apparent work-related purpose for such a bag to be in the TSBD; 7) no one else ever coming forward who worked in the building to indicate it was their bag or who could explain its presence (50 plus years and counting).

What needs to be explained if this is Oswald's bag:  1)  Frazier was off in his estimate of its length.

It's no use Richard. If Oswald were alive today and said "I did it", most of the people on here would jump up and down with their hair on fire and call him a liar and ask him, "do you have any evidence to prove it!" Truly fascinating.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 09:15:55 PM
If he does say things that contradict what he said earlier, doesn't that raise doubt about all of his later statements?

Such as?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 09:18:11 PM
'If they wanted'

Are you sure people couldn't claim their right to privacy and demand to be shown 'just cause'

LOL, they didn't have to show any just cause to search, beat up, and arrest a guy in a theater for murder based on looking funny to a shoe salesman.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 09:32:34 PM
There is nothing circular about this Inspector Ding-a-Ling except your IQ.  What is the best evidence of an object's size?  Someone's estimate or measuring the object itself?

Uh, Inspector Imbecile, you haven't established that it is the object itself.  You just assumed it is.

Quote
So what needs to be explained if this is not Oswald's bag:  1) bad luck by Old Lee to have touched and left his prints on this particular bag (the only TSBD employee to have done so); 2) its location near the SN; 3) no bag matching Frazier's estimate ever being found; 4) Oswald himself denying he carried any bag along the size estimated by Frazier; 5) multiple DPD officers confirming the bag was found on the 6th floor; 6) no apparent work-related purpose for such a bag to be in the TSBD; 7) no one else ever coming forward who worked in the building to indicate it was their bag or who could explain its presence (50 plus years and counting).

You're like a broken record.  You haven't established that any of these claims are true.  You're just assuming them as well:

"(the only TSBD employee to have done so)"
"Oswald himself denying he carried any bag along the size estimated by Frazier"
"its location near the SN"
"no apparent work-related purpose for such a bag to be in the TSBD"

And these are all still stupid "absence of evidence equals evidence of absence" arguments that you keep trotting out over and over again:

"no bag matching Frazier's estimate ever being found"
"no one else ever coming forward who worked in the building to indicate it was their bag or who could explain its presence"

This has been refuted over and over and over again.  No bag ever matching Harold Norman's lunch bag was ever found either.  So by Richard Smith twisted logic, that never existed either.

You can't prove with any actual evidence that CE142 was in the SN when it was first discovered (the first 5-6 officers on the scene did not see it, and Studebaker didn't photograph it even though he was standing right there with a camera).

You can't prove with any actual evidence that CE142 was the bag that Frazier and Randle saw.  They both said it was not.

You can't prove with any actual evidence that there was ever a rifle inside CE142.

Deal with it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 09:33:40 PM
It's no use Richard. If Oswald were alive today and said "I did it", most of the people on here would jump up and down with their hair on fire and call him a liar and ask him, "do you have any evidence to prove it!" Truly fascinating.

The only "evidence" Wesley can come up with is his imagined response to some fantasy confession that never actually happened.  Brilliant.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Wesley Johnson on March 22, 2018, 09:40:06 PM
The only "evidence" Wesley can come up with is his imagined response to some fantasy confession that never actually happened.  Brilliant.

his imagined response to some fantasy confession

Do you have any evidence that I ever claimed to have made an imagined response to some fantasy confession?  ;D
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 22, 2018, 10:08:55 PM
Do you have any evidence that I ever claimed to have made an imagined response to some fantasy confession?  ;D

(https://previews.123rf.com/images/krisdog/krisdog1606/krisdog160600062/60175120-a-happy-emoji-emoticon-smiley-face-character-pointing-at-his-or-her-head-making-a-screw-loose-gestur.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 22, 2018, 11:48:03 PM
He went to the movies because he  had  no plans and was aimlessly walking around and the movie theater was there and cops were around.  I know even come LNs disagree with me but I don't think there is any chance that Oswald thought he was getting out of the TSBD and didn't plan on what do do if he did. He had no plans and no place to go.

If he had plans to get away he would have brought his pistol with him and would not have needed to go back to the rooming house. How did he know the cops were not going to bust him at the rooming house? I don't think there is any way someone could shoot a President in front of all of those people and cops and think they are going to just walk out of that building. Plus if he had any real plans he would have kept more money.


(https://i.imgur.com/5WIHwcJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 22, 2018, 11:58:05 PM
How can you be sure that Oswald even knew that the president was shot?

Why else would he leave work early? He wasn't curious as to why a police officer was 1) in the building and 2) pointing a gun at him?

He did not believe that there was going to be any more work that day?

This is a classic example of Iacoletti, using shady defense lawyer tactics, showing that he is willing to jump through any hoop to get a double murderer off the hook.

One minute, we cannot be sure that Oswald was even aware that the President had been shot at... and then, in the next minute, Oswald possibly left work early because he didn't believe there was going to be any more work that day because the President had been shot at.

Nice work, Sean Kneringer.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 12:11:54 AM
Bill,

when are you going to finally stop playing your childish word games?

The most critical observation was that on the night of 22/11/1963 - in front of Law Enforcement Officers - neither LMR nor BWF recognized an unstained CE 142 as being in the possession of Lee Harvey Oswald that very morning.

When is it going to finally sink into your head?

The FBI expert made it absolutely clear - CE 142 was an oblong shaped home made paper bag that was 38 inches in length, with an open untapered and untaped end. In addition, there was NO evidence that any weapon was inside it.


Quote
when are you going to finally stop playing your childish word games?

Iacoletti stated that Randle and Frazier stated that the bag was too short to carry the alleged murder weapon.  This is an incorrect statement by Iacoletti.

This is about the ability of the witness (in this case, Randle) to be able to properly estimate the length of an object in terms of feet and/or inches versus being able to simply compare the length of one object (the bag) to the length of another object (the alleged murder weapon).

If Linnie Mae Randle had been shown the broken down rifle and said that it was too long to have been in the bag that she saw Oswald carry that morning, then Iacoletti would have a point.  But, I haven't been able to find anything showing where she ever said such a thing or that she was ever shown the alleged murder weapon.

Linnie Mae Randle never says what Iacoletti falsely attributes to her.

You can call it word games all you want, it doesn't change the fact that Iacoletti misspoke.  A newbie, after reading Iacoletti's false statement, could be left with false knowledge that Linnie Mae Randle told the authorities that the rifle was too long for the bag.

Do you have any evidence of her ever saying such a thing?

Perhaps Randle believed the bag measured about twenty-seven inches and she also would have estimated the length of the broken down Carcano to be... say... twenty-five inches , for example.  This would prove that she had the inability to correctly estimate the length of an object (since the broken down Carcano was indeed longer than twenty-five inches).

Iacoletti's falsehood is only valid if Randle was shown the broken down rifle and then stated that it was too long for the bag she saw that morning.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 12:23:46 AM
It is relevant and it's something that you cannot just dismiss or wish away. It has to be dealt with. How would you do so in front of a jury? Why would Oswald deny that he carried a long package to work that morning and deny that he told Frazier that it was curtain rods?

Tim, you're talking to Tony Fratini who has a theory about the bag... and if his theory is true, then Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Frazier were flat out lying when they said they saw Oswald carrying some sort of bag that morning.

Frazier and Randle... Lying.

Oswald... Not Lying.

Pathetic, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 12:34:02 AM
She estimated the bag to be 27 inches long, which was too short to hold the alleged murder weapon.

Now, if you would have said it this way in the first place, we wouldn't be talking about it right now.  But, that is not what you said originally.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on March 23, 2018, 12:34:31 AM
This is a classic example of Iacoletti, using shady defense lawyer tactics, showing that he is willing to jump through any hoop to get a double murderer off the hook.

One minute, we cannot be sure that Oswald was even aware that the President had been shot at... and then, in the next minute, Oswald possibly left work early because he didn't believe there was going to be any more work that day because the President had been shot at.

Nice work, Sean Kneringer.

So Oswald knows nothing about the shooting, simply walks out of the building, sees the screaming and yelling and chaos all around, and just decides, "I think I'll go to a movie."

Even shady lawyers wouldn't try to  sell that one.

Desperate conspiracy believers? Sure, but not defense lawyers.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 23, 2018, 01:20:25 AM

"A" bag is very different from a PARTICULAR bag as the WC claimed. Your claim that the WC's UNSUPPORTED claim of what type of bag was used is accurate is what is "pathetic."


Exactly right. Tony's theory being correct would not automatically mean that Frazier and Randle lied, as Brown falsely claims. It would just mean that Frazier and Randle saw Oswald carry a different bag, which is basically what they implicitely have been saying all along, as neither was able to identify CE 142 as the bag they had seen Oswald carry.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 01:25:03 AM
It's no use Richard. If Oswald were alive today and said "I did it", most of the people on here would jump up and down with their hair on fire and call him a liar and ask him, "do you have any evidence to prove it!" Truly fascinating.

That's right.  A perfect example of that is Sirhan Sirhan admitted, in a filmed interview, that he shot Bobby Kennedy... even going as far as explaining his motive for doing so.  Yet, some conspiracy nuts, many who are members of this forum, totally ignore that interview.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 01:26:24 AM
LOL, they didn't have to show any just cause to search, beat up, and arrest a guy in a theater for murder based on looking funny to a shoe salesman.

Oswald was beat up and arrested for punching a police officer, regardless of what the erroneous arrest report says.  Live with it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 01:31:08 AM
So Oswald knows nothing about the shooting, simply walks out of the building, sees the screaming and yelling and chaos all around, and just decides, "I think I'll go to a movie."

Even shady lawyers wouldn't try to  sell that one.

Desperate conspiracy believers? Sure, but not defense lawyers.

(https://i.imgur.com/7Fp3t2Q.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 02:09:28 AM
This is a classic example of Iacoletti, using shady defense lawyer tactics, showing that he is willing to jump through any hoop to get a double murderer off the hook.

This silly rhetoric does not help you make your case at all.  In fact it illustrates how weak your case really is.  I can just as easily say that you use shady prosecuting lawyer tactics to jump through any hoop to railroad an innocent man.  Can the rhetoric and actually prove he was a "double murderer" instead of just claiming it over and over again.

Quote
One minute, we cannot be sure that Oswald was even aware that the President had been shot at... and then, in the next minute, Oswald possibly left work early because he didn't believe there was going to be any more work that day because the President had been shot at.

Yeah, except nobody ever said that he didn't believe there was going to be any more work that day because the President had been shot at.

Nice strawman, Bill Brown.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 02:17:59 AM
Iacoletti stated that Randle and Frazier stated that the bag was too short to carry the alleged murder weapon.  This is an incorrect statement by Iacoletti.

No, it's another word game by Bill Brown.  I didn't put quotation marks around it.  They stated that the bag was a particular size.  The particular sizes that they gave were too short to carry the alleged murder weapon.

Quote
You can call it word games all you want, it doesn't change the fact that Iacoletti misspoke.  A newbie, after reading Iacoletti's false statement, could be left with false knowledge that Linnie Mae Randle told the authorities that the rifle was too long for the bag.

Yes, it's all for the poor "misled" children.  ::)  Except you're the only one who seems to have been confused about what I meant.

None of your hoop jumping changes the fact that both Frazier and Randle estimated the bag was a size that would have been too short to have held that rifle, and furthermore they both said that CE142 was not the bag they saw.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 23, 2018, 02:23:28 AM
Tim, you're talking to Tony Fratini who has a theory about the bag... and if his theory is true, then Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Frazier were flat out lying when they said they saw Oswald carrying some sort of bag that morning.

Frazier and Randle... Lying.

Oswald... Not Lying.

Pathetic, in my opinion.

Bill, Tony made the mistake of adopting a pet theory. People should be wary of doing that sort of thing. You'll likely end up defending the undefendable and looking foolish in the process.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 02:25:19 AM
Tim, you're talking to Tony Fratini who has a theory about the bag... and if his theory is true, then Linnie Mae Randle and Buell Frazier were flat out lying when they said they saw Oswald carrying some sort of bag that morning.

Frazier and Randle... Lying.

Oswald... Not Lying.

Pathetic, in my opinion.

What that shows is that you actually have no freakin' idea what Tony's theory about the bag is.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 02:28:27 AM
So Oswald knows nothing about the shooting, simply walks out of the building, sees the screaming and yelling and chaos all around, and just decides, "I think I'll go to a movie."

Even shady lawyers wouldn't try to  sell that one.

Desperate conspiracy believers? Sure, but not defense lawyers.

I asked a very simple question:  "How can you be sure that Oswald even knew that the president was shot?"

This rhetoric doesn't even come close to actually answering it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 02:29:42 AM
That's right.  A perfect example of that is Sirhan Sirhan admitted, in a filmed interview, that he shot Bobby Kennedy... even going as far as explaining his motive for doing so.  Yet, some conspiracy nuts, many who are members of this forum, totally ignore that interview.

What this has to do with Oswald is anybody's guess.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 02:30:19 AM
Oswald was beat up and arrested for punching a police officer, regardless of what the erroneous arrest report says.  Live with it.

And this is true just because you say so?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 23, 2018, 02:30:23 AM
Such as?

You haven't answered the question.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 02:33:34 AM
Bill, Tony made the mistake of adopting a pet theory. People should be wary of doing that sort of thing. You'll likely end up defending the undefendable and looking foolish in the process.

You know who looks really foolish?  The people who cling to a dotted line on a photograph where a bag is supposed to be and the hope that everybody who saw the package was mistaken.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 23, 2018, 02:38:53 AM
If you can prove me wrong Tim, that would be marvelous.

Your pet theory is that CE 399 hit JFK at the level of C6 without one shred of evidence it was a through and through wound and CE 399 was involved in hitting anyone.

You think I have issues with my theory?  ;D

Tony, your brain is overheated. It is not now, nor has it ever been, my pet theory that CE 399 hit JFK at the level of C6.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 02:43:59 AM
You haven't answered the question.

You're as bad as Arlen Specter.  "Permit me to supply some additional facts, Dr. Perry, which I shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion."

What things did Frazier say later that contradicted his earlier statements?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 02:51:47 AM
That's right.  A perfect example of that is Sirhan Sirhan admitted, in a filmed interview, that he shot Bobby Kennedy... even going as far as explaining his motive for doing so.  Yet, some conspiracy nuts, many who are members of this forum, totally ignore that interview.

An admission of guilt does NOT trump the evidence. Nothing does. The evidence does NOT support that Sirhan Sirhan killed RFK, but doesn't rule out that he fired his gun.


Quote
Yet, some conspiracy nuts

I rest my case.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 02:53:38 AM
Bill, Tony made the mistake of adopting a pet theory. People should be wary of doing that sort of thing. You'll likely end up defending the undefendable and looking foolish in the process.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 03:27:09 AM
So, Lee Oswald just happened to be seen (by both Randle and Frazier) carrying a long bag/sack on the morning of the assassination, a bag totally unrelated to the rifle?

Is there any reason to think that the bag they saw was related to the rifle?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 03:06:21 PM
It's a simple question, Tony.

Either Oswald was carrying a longer bag that morning or he wasn't.

Was he?

Longer than what?

Both people who saw it said it wasn't as long as CE142.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 03:09:35 PM
Buell and Randle contradicting WC claims would be a first step towards playing down the fact that Buell had chauffeured the prime suspect to the crime scene.

Now who's calling Frazier and Randle liars?

Quote
Persons not seeing or hearing Dirty Harvey on the stairs only proves that they didn't see or hear Dirty Harvey on the stairs.

...and yet you think he went down the stairs, because ...?

Quote
Persons not seeing any package in Oswald's hands only proves that they didn't see a package in Oswald's hands.

...and yet you think he brought a package into the building because...?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 03:33:43 PM
So, Randle and Frazier saw Oswald with a long bag coincidentally on the same day, out of every day in the history of Oswald riding to work with Frazier, that he (Oswald) would later be the accused assassin... One hell of a coincidence.

Is this rhetoric supposed to prove that there was a rifle in the bag?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 03:42:24 PM
What makes you think I have or even need that kind of documentation?

Because his shtick is that you need to prove that Oswald didn't come down the stairs.

People who accept the Warren Commission conclusions almost universally don't understand burden of proof.

Oh yeah, back to why Oswald went to the movies...

He liked movies.  And popcorn.  And there was no more work that day.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 23, 2018, 07:58:25 PM
Because his shtick is that you need to prove that Oswald didn't come down the stairs.

People who accept the Warren Commission conclusions almost universally don't understand burden of proof.

Oh yeah, back to why Oswald went to the movies...

He liked movies.  And popcorn.  And there was no more work that day.

Explain how Oswald knew there was no more work that day.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on March 23, 2018, 08:58:42 PM

You seem to be assuming that the package would have to be carried straight up.


Mr. BALL - When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side.
Mr. BALL - But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package?
Mr. FRAZIER - No; he had it cupped in his hand.
Mr. BALL - Cupped in his hand?
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.

<>

The CHAIRMAN - Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he had it cupped in his hand.
The CHAIRMAN - I beg your pardon?
Mr. FRAZIER - I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.
Mr. BALL - Could he have carried it this way?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen the package sticking up like that.
From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 09:45:41 PM
Explain how Oswald knew there was no more work that day.

Fritz's account was "He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building."

I don't know how you get from that to "he knew the president was shot".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 23, 2018, 09:47:08 PM
You seem to be assuming that the package would have to be carried straight up.

Right.  He could have been holding it at a 45 degree angle in front of him.

 ::)

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 24, 2018, 02:08:08 AM
But you support it, right?

Support what? That CE 399 hit JFK at the level of C6? No, I do not.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 24, 2018, 06:09:35 AM
Because his shtick is that you need to prove that Oswald didn't come down the stairs.

People who accept the Warren Commission conclusions almost universally don't understand burden of proof.

Oh yeah, back to why Oswald went to the movies...

He liked movies.  And popcorn.  And there was no more work that day.

And he liked staring blankly at tennis shoes, apparently. Not interested in cop cars speeding by with sirens wailing, though. Smith, Wesson, and Lee... Dirty Harvey. That's it, it's all over now. Poor dumb cop.

People who reject every WC conclusion don't understand or accept standard of proof.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on March 24, 2018, 08:50:24 AM
Fritz's account was "He stated that he left work because, in his opinion, based upon remarks of Bill Shelly, he did not believe that there was going to be anymore work that day due to the confusion in the building."

I don't know how you get from that to "he knew the president was shot".


Quote
I don't know how you get from that to "he knew the president was shot".

Um, yeah.  Okay.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on March 24, 2018, 03:45:29 PM

Um, yeah.  Okay.

Someone once said: "Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says."

I'm just quoting that of course; that doesn't mean I agree with it or anything.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 25, 2018, 11:13:19 PM
And he liked staring blankly at tennis shoes, apparently. Not interested in cop cars speeding by with sirens wailing, though.

...therefore he had just shot a cop. You call that a ?standard of proof??
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 25, 2018, 11:18:33 PM
Buell had good reason to suspect that he might be charged as an accessory in the assassination, given that he delivered the killer to the scene. Repeatedly assurring questioners that he didn't pay attention to the bag would arguably suggest that he wanted to bolster a position that would serve him reasonably well on the stand.

As I said ? now look who?s calling witnesses liars!

Quote
Couple that with the statements by Buell in later years that he didn't want to spend the rest of his life being scorned. Additionally, he did move away from Dallas I think; stating that he feared for his family's safety.

Really? Where to? Is this another one of your ?recollections??
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 26, 2018, 04:01:20 AM

The CHAIRMAN - Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he had it cupped in his hand.
The CHAIRMAN - I beg your pardon?
Mr. FRAZIER - I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.
Mr. BALL - Could he have carried it this way?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen the package sticking up like that.
From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.

I've read Frazier's testimony numerous time but somehow what he said in that bit escaped me. He never actually saw the upper end of the package under Oswald's armpit. He just assumed that it was there. Thanks Martin.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 27, 2018, 09:05:49 PM
Mr. FRAZIER - I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands. And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.

...and did it stick over it?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Tim Nickerson on March 27, 2018, 09:13:30 PM
...and did it stick over it?

It did not show above the shoulder because Oswald had it extended out in front of him, supporting it with his other hand.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 27, 2018, 10:28:28 PM
It did not show above the shoulder because Oswald had it extended out in front of him, supporting it with his other hand.

At a 45 degree angle?

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 27, 2018, 10:30:50 PM
Well there is this. Mrs. Robert Reid told him that the president was shot at.

Mr. BELIN. And then what did you do?

Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and  I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him."

He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else.

That doesn't mean that he heard or understood her.  He may have been mumbling "sorry, I didn't hear what you said" for all anybody knows.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 28, 2018, 07:26:19 AM
As I said ? now look who?s calling witnesses liars!

Really? Where to? Is this another one of your ?recollections??

Kudos to Buell for putting his family first
Like Brennan did

And a damn good reason for claiming the bag
was too small to contain a rifle. See Buell confirm
those fears below, and protect his best bud at
the same time.

Another twofer  ;)

----------------------------------------------------

Yep. Another one of my recollections:

Travis Buell Frazier feared for his family
Paul Thompson in Dallas for the Daily Mail Online

Quote Buell Frazier:

'I was working as a manager of a clothing store in a job I really enjoyed. One day I was called into the office and told I was being let go. It was because they found out I had given Lee a lift to work on the day Kennedy died. Another  time I was at a school reunion and a teacher came up to me and just said: "You should be ashamed of yourself." When I asked why she said it was because of Oswald. That really bothered me. To think that people could think I had something to do with the President's death was really awful.'

Buell was so afraid that he might be killed by people seeking revenge for JFK's death that he moved from Dallas, joined the Army and lived in Denver, Colorado and Portland, Oregon

'I did not want people to know,' he said. 'I didn't do anything wrong but some people would not accept that. Some people think I am guilty that I helped Oswald. All I did was give him a ride to work.'

His first marriage ended in 1987 and he re-married in 1988. He is now retired from his job with the Lewisville School Board where as a receiving clerk he was responsible for stocking schools with equipment and furniture.

'Most people remember where they were when they heard JFK had been killed but I have had to live with the knowledge that the man they say killed him was in my car on that day,' said Buell.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on March 28, 2018, 08:22:25 AM


Dougherty did say that though.





Exactly, all I did was quote Dougherty and Fratini went ballistic.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.


And btw, Frazier saw Oswald carrying the package and entering the Annex door which was not the same door that Dougherty saw.

(https://s18.postimg.org/at8bvch61/1st-floor.jpg)



JohnM

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 28, 2018, 09:10:57 AM


Exactly, all I did was quote Dougherty and Fratini went ballistic.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Lee Oswald carry any sort of large package?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't, but some of the fellows said they did.
Mr. BALL - Who said that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, Bill Shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package.
Mr. BALL - When did Shelley tell you that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, it was--the day after it happened.


And btw, Frazier saw Oswald carrying the package and entering the Annex door which was not the same door that Dougherty saw.

(https://s18.postimg.org/at8bvch61/1st-floor.jpg)



JohnM

Hearsay doesn't count as you know, John.

Strange that Shelley never mentioned even seeing Oswald when he arrived at the TSBD.
 
Mr. BALL - On the 22d of November 1963, did you see him come to work that morning?
Mr. SHELLEY - No, he was at work when I got there already filling orders.

How could he have seen him holding a bag?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 28, 2018, 06:46:49 PM
Kudos to Buell for putting his family first
Like Brennan did

And a damn good reason for claiming the bag
was too small to contain a rifle. See Buell confirm
those fears below, and protect his best bud at
the same time.

Another twofer  ;)

I'll remember that the next time you do your usual grandstanding about calling witnesses liars.

Quote
His first marriage ended in 1987 and he re-married in 1988. He is now retired from his job with the Lewisville School Board where as a receiving clerk he was responsible for stocking schools with equipment and furniture.

You're aware, aren't you, that Lewisville is a suburb of Dallas?  And to this day he has never wavered from what the bag he saw looked like.  Are you suggesting that he's still "afraid for his family"?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 28, 2018, 06:50:24 PM
Dougherty did say that though.

Yes, but Shelley never did.

You know what else Dougherty said?

"I didn't see anything in his hands at the time"
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on March 29, 2018, 04:41:11 PM
Yes, but Shelley never did.

You know what else Dougherty said?

"I didn't see anything in his hands at the time"

I guess that rules out Oswald carrying his lunch - as he claimed - or a two foot long bag which you previously swore must be the gospel truth since Frazier said so.  Oh well, narrative consistency was never an issue for you.  It can be true if you want it to be in one instance and false in another.  That is the definition of a lazy contrarian.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 29, 2018, 06:29:47 PM
I'll remember that the next time you do your usual grandstanding about calling witnesses liars.

You're aware, aren't you, that Lewisville is a suburb of Dallas?  And to this day he has never wavered from what the bag he saw looked like.  Are you suggesting that he's still "afraid for his family"?

How is pointing out that you and others deign to inform readers what witnesses really saw or really said or what they really would have done qualify as 'grandstanding' on my part, exactly?

I put family before everything... same as Buell did, as we've seen. And Brennan. Maybe contact the man who interviewed Buell for the article. Anyway, Buell said so in the article. Is he fearful for his family now? Ask him... you claim you 'talked' to him FFS.

Of course Bueller never wavered from his description of the bag. Duh. Read the article and discover that he didn't want to be remembered as the man who delivered the prime suspect to the eventual scene of the crime. And find that he lost a job over that.

You're aware, aren't you, that Buell joined the army and lived in Denver, Colorado and Portland, Oregan. Pretty sure those locations aren't Dallas suburbs.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 29, 2018, 07:33:23 PM
I guess that rules out Oswald carrying his lunch - as he claimed - or a two foot long bag which you previously swore must be the gospel truth since Frazier said so.

When did I ever swear this must be the gospel truth since Frazier said so?  Do you ever get tired of making things up?

Can you prove that Oswald carried CE 142 into the building and that it had CE 139 inside it?  Or can you not?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 29, 2018, 07:37:50 PM
How is pointing out that you and others deign to inform readers what witnesses really saw or really said or what they really would have done qualify as 'grandstanding' on my part, exactly?

You have no qualms about deciding for Frazier that he intentionally misrepresented the bag he saw.

Quote
You're aware, aren't you, that Buell joined the army and lived in Denver, Colorado and Portland, Oregan. Pretty sure those locations aren't Dallas suburbs.

Answer the questions, Bill. Why did he move back to a Dallas suburb and have an entire career there if he moved away to "protect his family"? And if he intentionally misrepresented the bag in 1963 "to protect his family", why does he still say it wasn't the same bag?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on March 29, 2018, 09:53:39 PM
When did I ever swear this must be the gospel truth since Frazier said so?  Do you ever get tired of making things up?

Can you prove that Oswald carried CE 142 into the building and that it had CE 139 inside it?  Or can you not?

Just more moronic games.  You have repeatedly cited Frazier's estimate of the bag size to refute the conclusion that Oswald carried a longer bag found on the 6th floor.  Are you now confirming he could have been wrong and the bag could have been longer than he estimated?  It is bizarre to repeatedly cite Frazier's claim that Oswald carried a two-foot long bag but then cite Dougherty's inconsistent claim that Oswald had nothing in his hands.  They both cannot be true.   Either Oswald had a bag or not.  Oswald himself said he carried a bag.  Frazier said he had a bag.  That would seemingly be conclusive of the issue that he had something in his hands and prove Dougherty wrong.  But you cited his testimony anyway without acknowledging that it undermines your previous argument that Oswald had a two-foot long bag in his hands that morning.  Dishonest but the norm.   
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 29, 2018, 10:45:57 PM
Just more moronic games.

I'll take that as a "no".  You can't prove that Oswald carried CE 142 into the building and that it had CE 139 inside it.

Quote
  You have repeatedly cited Frazier's estimate of the bag size to refute the conclusion that Oswald carried a longer bag found on the 6th floor.

I pointed out that the only people to have seen a bag in Oswald's hands said that CE142 was not that bag.  Do you have some evidence that it was?  Any evidence?

Quote
  Are you now confirming he could have been wrong and the bag could have been longer than he estimated?

Sure, anybody could have been wrong.  Brennan could have been wrong.  Markham could have been wrong.  I don't see how that helps you prove that Oswald carried CE 142 into the building and that it had CE 139 inside it.

Quote
  It is bizarre to repeatedly cite Frazier's claim that Oswald carried a two-foot long bag but then cite Dougherty's inconsistent claim that Oswald had nothing in his hands.  They both cannot be true.

Of course they can both be true.  Just because Oswald had some bag in the parking lot doesn't mean that he carried it past Dougherty.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Jon Banks on March 30, 2018, 05:27:49 AM
Hey, Wesley.  A few years back a comedian was making fun of Depends underwear
as to why any person would buy a product with such a name. 

Will this type of underwear be helpful in case I have an accident? 

Depends.

So, why did Oswald go to the movies?

Depends.

Was he the lone gunman and murdered Tippit as well?  Was he involved in a team?  Was he innocent
and afraid for his life?  Was he going to a safe house and he encountered and murdered Tippit?  Was he planning to kill someone else before he encountered Tippit?  Did he have his own escape plan where he would wait in the dark and leave at night?  Was he involved and went to the TT to meet his contact? 
And, on and on ...

Depends.

The theory that Oswald was heading to an Alpha 66 Safe House near Oak Cliff (the Harlandale house) before his encounter with Officer Tippit seems pretty compelling. Oswald was allegedly seen visiting a home known to be used by Cuban Exiles in the weeks or days leading up to 11/22/63.

The visit to the Texas Theater may have been an unplanned detour.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 30, 2018, 08:17:14 AM


You have no qualms about deciding for Frazier that he intentionally misrepresented the bag he saw.
> Show us where I said that. Pretty sure I only said that it was possible that Buell might have done so.

Answer the questions, Bill. Why did he move back to a Dallas suburb and have an entire career there if he moved away to "protect his family"?
> Ask Buell.   

And if he intentionally misrepresented the bag in 1963 "to protect his family" Why does he still say it wasn't the same bag?
> Duh. You're still missing the concept of distancing oneself from possible charges of involvement in the crime.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 30, 2018, 01:23:14 PM
Just more moronic games.  You have repeatedly cited Frazier's estimate of the bag size to refute the conclusion that Oswald carried a longer bag found on the 6th floor.  Are you now confirming he could have been wrong and the bag could have been longer than he estimated?  It is bizarre to repeatedly cite Frazier's claim that Oswald carried a two-foot long bag but then cite Dougherty's inconsistent claim that Oswald had nothing in his hands.  They both cannot be true.   Either Oswald had a bag or not.  Oswald himself said he carried a bag.  Frazier said he had a bag.  That would seemingly be conclusive of the issue that he had something in his hands and prove Dougherty wrong.  But you cited his testimony anyway without acknowledging that it undermines your previous argument that Oswald had a two-foot long bag in his hands that morning.  Dishonest but the norm.


Oswald himself said he carried a bag.

That's according to Fritz.... The truth is:  We don't know what Lee said....And you generally deny anything that Lee reportedly said.....calling him a liar,  So why do you cite his alleged statement now?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Thomas on March 30, 2018, 03:09:44 PM
The theory that Oswald was heading to an Alpha 66 Safe House near Oak Cliff (the Harlandale house) before his encounter with Officer Tippit seems pretty compelling. Oswald was allegedly seen visiting a home known to be used by Cuban Exiles in the weeks or days leading up to 11/22/63.

The visit to the Texas Theater may have been an unplanned detour.

Jon,

There are a couple of possibilities.

Patton is east of Beckley. The Theater is west of Beckley.

If Oswald had been heading east, if you look at a Google Maps page, you'll see that Jack Ruby's apartment is in that direction.
So is the Library at Jefferson and Marsalis.
Maybe he was headed for the Library, and the sight and sounds of all the sirens headed in that direction caused him to double back.
Course the Dallas Zoo is over there too.

I put up some thoughts on a possible Rambler lead connected to that house on  Harlandale here, in case you're interested:
http://myjfksite.weebly.com/

Steve Thomas
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on March 30, 2018, 04:13:03 PM
""Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way.
Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - He was alone?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.
Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 30, 2018, 04:38:00 PM
""Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way.
Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - He was alone?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.
Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.


Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.


If Lee had been carrying a huge paper sack like CE 142.....  Dougherty certainly would have noticed it ...as would all of the other employees who were present there in the mustering in area.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 30, 2018, 05:10:19 PM

Oswald himself said he carried a bag.

That's according to Fritz.... The truth is:  We don't know what Lee said....And you generally deny anything that Lee reportedly said.....calling him a liar,  So why do you cite his alleged statement now?

Fritz didn't even say that.  Richard just made it up.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 30, 2018, 05:14:06 PM
You mean the same Dougherty who saw Oswald only out of the corner of his eye? That's right... don't mention that part.

When did Dougherty say that he saw Oswald only out of the corner of his eye?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 30, 2018, 06:28:45 PM
""Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way.
Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - He was alone?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.
Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.


You missed this part...

Mr. DOUGHERTY: I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."
Mr. BALL - Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye*---that's the reason why I said it that way.

*Indirectly
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on March 30, 2018, 06:37:35 PM
When did Dougherty say that he saw Oswald only out of the corner of his eye?

Show us where JackD said he saw Oswald from any other angle other than just catching him out of the corner of his eye.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on March 30, 2018, 07:13:50 PM
Show us where JackD said he saw Oswald from any other angle other than just catching him out of the corner of his eye.

There you go again.

Your claim:  "Dougherty saw Oswald only out of the corner of his eye"

Your evidence:  "Prove he didn't"

...which is how you approach every claim you make about this case.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on March 30, 2018, 07:20:50 PM
There you go again.

Your claim:  "Dougherty saw Oswald only out of the corner of his eye"

Your evidence:  "Prove he didn't"

...which is how you approach every claim you make about this case.


"Dougherty saw Oswald only out of the corner of his eye"

Based on the above statement...Did Dougherty see Lee Oswald ??
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Jon Banks on March 30, 2018, 07:43:49 PM
Either way you always end up with zero persons seeing Oswald with a bag inside the TSBD.

Will you ever comprehend this fact?

He was never seen in the Wrapping Room in TSBD either
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 01, 2018, 05:38:28 PM
There you go again.

Your claim:  "Dougherty saw Oswald only out of the corner of his eye"

Your evidence:  "Prove he didn't"

...which is how you approach every claim you make about this case.

Do you have evidence that JackD viewed Oswald before, beyond, after, or following seeing him out of the corner of his eye?

BTW:

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to
you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when
he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---
that's the reason why I said it that way. ....
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in
his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.


So JackD doesn't think he was guessing, huh LOL
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 01, 2018, 10:35:12 PM
Do you have evidence that JackD viewed Oswald before, beyond, after, or following seeing him out of the corner of his eye?

BTW:

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to
you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when
he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---
that's the reason why I said it that way. ....
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in
his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Or, are you guessing?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I don't think so.


So JackD doesn't think he was guessing, huh LOL

Why does Ball keep asking him the same questions over and over?  Because he doesn't like the answer.  Just like he didn't like Markham's answers.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 01:05:40 AM
Tony... I'm just saying that it's unremarkable that nobody saw Oswald:

-- Take the paper from the shipping area (or construct the bag right there).

-- Transport the paper from the TSBD to the Paine's residence in Irving.

-- Construct the paper bag in the garage at the Paine's residence.

-- Pass Dougherty on the way to the freight elevator without this co-worker seeing the bag.

Then what reason do you have for believing that he did all of these things anyway?

Quote
Oswald "was" seen carrying the paper bag into the TSBD by Buell Wesley Frazier.

What do you mean "*THE* paper bag"?  Frazier saw Oswald carrying *A* paper sack.  A flimsy crinkly 2-foot sack under his armpit between the parking lot and the entrance to the northern annex.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 01:08:07 AM
I read 6 saw it. Plus that corner would be in shadow, and I understand that the bag was folded in half lengthwise and didn't someone pick it up and put it out of the way? (I'm not clear there)

Also, a paper package in a building full of books wrapped in paper might not initially look out of place in the rush to find a rifle & spent shells. Especially a bag apparently looking 'flimsy and crinkly' according to you characters.

So your argument is that all of them *could possibly* have not noticed it, therefore it definitely was there when the SN was first discovered?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 03, 2018, 01:22:09 AM
So your argument is that all of them *could possibly* have not noticed it, therefore it definitely was there when the SN was first discovered?

Nah, just the potential.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 03, 2018, 01:28:36 AM
So your argument is that all of them *could possibly* have not noticed it, therefore it definitely was there when the SN was first discovered?

Show us where I claim such a finality.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 03, 2018, 01:46:51 AM
Then what reason do you have for believing that he did all of these things anyway?

What do you mean "*THE* paper bag"?  Frazier saw Oswald carrying *A* paper sack.  A flimsy crinkly 2-foot sack under his armpit between the parking lot and the entrance to the northern annex.

The same flimsy, crinkly bag that should have been seen and considered important by all the officers in the SN, John? Not that you characters want it both ways.

You characters seem somewhat blissfully unaware of your own contradictions.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 04:24:46 AM
The same flimsy, crinkly bag that should have been seen and considered important by all the officers in the SN, John? Not that you characters want it both ways.

You characters seem somewhat blissfully unaware of your own contradictions.

Nope, it's you who wants the bag to have been in the SN when it was first discovered despite there being NO evidence for it being there.  All you can do is hope for the possibility that they all missed it.  Because gorillas playing basketball.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 04:26:23 AM
Nah, just the potential.

How does this "potential" help determine who shot JFK?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 03, 2018, 02:14:59 PM
Is this your way of saying that you have no evidence showing that LHO ever made a bag Ross?

His prints are on the bag!  Has anyone in the 50 plus years since the assassination come forward to say hey that bag you believe Oswald used to carry the bag was actually mine?  It's lunacy to suggest there is "no evidence" of this under the circumstances.  Oswald was seen carrying a long bag that morning.  No other bag matching that description was ever found in the TSBD.  There is no apparent work-related purpose for the bag that was found to be there.  No one who worked there ever came forward with any explanation for that bag to be there.  Oswald's prints are on that bag.  It is next to the SN where his prints were also found and fired bullet casings from his rifle were located.  Absent a time-machine, it is difficult to see how we could have much more evidence to link him to this bag. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 05:00:11 PM
His prints are on the bag!

"the bag".  LOL.

Quote
  Has anyone in the 50 plus years since the assassination come forward to say hey that bag you believe Oswald used to carry the bag was actually mine?  It's lunacy to suggest there is "no evidence" of this under the circumstances.  Oswald was seen carrying a long bag that morning.  No other bag matching that description was ever found in the TSBD.  There is no apparent work-related purpose for the bag that was found to be there.  No one who worked there ever came forward with any explanation for that bag to be there.  Oswald's prints are on that bag.  It is next to the SN where his prints were also found and fired bullet casings from his rifle were located.  Absent a time-machine, it is difficult to see how we could have much more evidence to link him to this bag.

How many times are you going to keep making the same fallacious arguments?

(https://media1.tenor.com/images/50390f82525f5158db33acb14cb03b36/tenor.gif)
You're like a broken record.  You haven't established that any of these claims are true.  You're just assuming them as well:

"(the only TSBD employee to have done so)"
"Oswald himself denying he carried any bag along the size estimated by Frazier"
"its location near the SN"
"no apparent work-related purpose for such a bag to be in the TSBD"

And these are all still stupid "absence of evidence equals evidence of absence" arguments that you keep trotting out over and over again:

"no bag matching Frazier's estimate ever being found"
"no one else ever coming forward who worked in the building to indicate it was their bag or who could explain its presence"

This has been refuted over and over and over again.  No bag ever matching Harold Norman's lunch bag was ever found either.  So by Richard Smith twisted logic, that never existed either.

You can't prove with any actual evidence that CE142 was in the SN when it was first discovered (the first 5-6 officers on the scene did not see it, and Studebaker didn't photograph it even though he was standing right there with a camera).

You can't prove with any actual evidence that CE142 was the bag that Frazier and Randle saw.  They both said it was not.

You can't prove with any actual evidence that there was ever a rifle inside CE142.

Deal with it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 03, 2018, 06:30:42 PM
"the bag".  LOL.

How many times are you going to keep making the same fallacious arguments?


I agree that the ring/money thing, in and of it's own, could not convict. Pretty sure that no LNer is claiming that. Go ahead and continue to try and make it look like we are. You are only making yourself look the fool.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 03, 2018, 06:42:25 PM
Really?

Representative FORD. The suggestion has been made, Mr. Murray, that perhaps you would like to look at that palmprint and the fingerprint on the wrapping, and you might make a statement the same as Mr. Dulles and I have made.
Mr. EISENBERG. Could you point out to Mr. Murray, Mr. Latona, the two prints?
Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir. "A" is the fingerprint.
Mr. DULLES. And the witness certifies that these are true photographs of the fingerprint and the palmprint that you have exhibited?
Mr. LATONA. Yes, sir.
Mr. MURRAY. May I say for the. record, Mr. Chairman, that I definitely and clearly saw what appeared to me to be a palmprint in the port of Exhibit 142 which was designated with a "B," and less clearly, but nevertheless I did see, the fingerprint on the other portion of the bag.
Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Latona----
Mr. LATONA. "B" is the finger, and "A" is the palm.

.... and?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 06:52:48 PM
I agree that the ring/money thing on it's own could not convict Oswald. Pretty sure that no LNer is claiming that. Go ahead and continue to try and make it look like we are. You are only making yourself look the fool.

Why bring up conjecture like this at all instead of discussing what you think constitutes real evidence.  Because it's all conjecture?

Speaking of looking the fool, Bugliosi did try to claim that every individual piece of his "evidence" (yes, including the ring in a cup) was sufficient to convict Oswald.  Do you disagree?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 03, 2018, 07:56:30 PM
Why bring up conjecture like this at all instead of discussing what you think constitutes real evidence.  Because it's all conjecture?

Speaking of looking the fool, Bugliosi did try to claim that every individual piece of his "evidence" (yes, including the ring in a cup) was sufficient to convict Oswald.  Do you disagree?

Richard brought up the ring/money thing. I brought up the ongoing attack you apply to any mention of an individual non-routine action Oswald took in those last couple of days.

Are you certain that Bug claimed every one of those claims would convict on their own? I read where he said that he could throw 30 of them out and still convict.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 08:06:22 PM
Richard brought up the ring/money thing. I brought up the ongoing attack you apply to any mention of an individual non-routine action Oswald took in those last couple of days.

It's not an attack.  It's just pointing out that it's ridiculous to apply nefarious intent to everything Oswald happened to do on those days -- for no other reason than because you already think that he had nefarious intent.

Quote
Are you certain that Bug claimed every one of those claims would convict on their own? I read where he said that he could throw 30 of them out and still convict.

Pretty certain.  The cite got lost in the forum crash.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 03, 2018, 11:46:23 PM
What ring? Can you cite the DPD evidence log that shows a wedding ring on it?

Not only that, but Ruth and Marina disagreed on who found it and when.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 04, 2018, 03:48:12 PM
What ring? Can you cite the DPD evidence log that shows a wedding ring on it?

Do you see it on Oswald's finger in the photos after his arrest?  What do you think happened?  Someone tried to frame Oswald by forcibly taking his wedding ring and leaving it in a cup at Paine's home?  Then overlook it in a search. LOL.  You kooks are amazing.  And then without missing a beat you also claim it is not evidence of guilt.  The very thing you imply is the purpose for someone to plant it.  To make it look as though Oswald had foreknowledge of the event. Narrative consistency has never been a strong suit of fringe element.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 04, 2018, 08:56:34 PM
Do you see it on Oswald's finger in the photos after his arrest?  What do you think happened?  Someone tried to frame Oswald by forcibly taking his wedding ring and leaving it in a cup at Paine's home?  Then overlook it in a search. LOL.  You kooks are amazing.  And then without missing a beat you also claim it is not evidence of guilt.  The very thing you imply is the purpose for someone to plant it.  To make it look as though Oswald had foreknowledge of the event. Narrative consistency has never been a strong suit of fringe element.

This is a complete non-starter as you have no idea when Oswald last had his wedding ring on to begin with.  And who the hell said that "someone tried to frame Oswald by forcibly taking his wedding ring and leaving it in a cup at Paine's home", Mr. Strawman?  You are the only kooks who think a ring in a cup means "planning to kill the president".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 05, 2018, 03:42:57 PM
It doesn't work this way. You are claiming his ring was found by the DPD, but have provided ZERO evidence showing that they did. Sound familiar? It should since this is how every WC claim went.

Speculation is NOT evidence. Opinion is NOT evidence. Assumption is NOT evidence.

Where did I claim his ring was found by the DPD?  I did the opposite by pointing out it was not on Oswald when he was arrested by the DPD because he left it at the Paine home.  When discovered it was turned over to the FBI.  In your own bizarre way, you have added credence to Oswald having left the ring at the Paine residence by noting that there is no evidence he had it on when arrested.  Very humorous. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on April 06, 2018, 10:27:59 AM
If LHO did murder Tippit as claimed, why did he try to "hide out" in the Texas Theater and then draw attention to himself by entering without paying, even though he had enough money on him to buy a ticket? Wouldn?t it have drawn less attention to pay the nominal movie ticket price?

Why does almost every claim by the WC make no sense IF LHO was guilty as claimed?

It doesn't take a genius to understand that Oswald, by trying to sneak in unnoticed by anyone, was attempting to have as little attention drawn to him as possible.  Paying for a ticket meant, for all he knew, that the ticket girl (Postal) could eventually recognize him when his face was plastered all over the news in the next hour or so as being the man missing from the building where the shots came from, the same man who owned the rifle found in the building, the same man who was currently inside her theater (again, for Oswald really knew).

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 06, 2018, 02:03:54 PM
It doesn't take a genius to understand that Oswald, by trying to sneak in unnoticed by anyone, was attempting to have as little attention drawn to him as possible.  Paying for a ticket meant, for all he knew, that the ticket girl (Postal) could eventually recognize him when his face was plastered all over the news in the next hour or so as being the man missing from the building where the shots came from, the same man who owned the rifle found in the building, the same man who was currently inside her theater (again, for Oswald really knew).

The original reason for 67 cops and three of Hoover's FBI agents going to the theater was because a man had entered without buying a ticket.  That reason was unknown to anybody in the theater....It was based on an assumption of John Brewer .....  Brewer claimed that he saw a man enter the theater without buying a ticket.....but he had no way of knowing that the man hadn't bought a ticket minutes  prior to entering the theater.   And Lee Oswald was never even asked whether he had bought a ticket....  Which was the initial reason given that THREE FBI Agents were there at the time Lee was arrested.   
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on April 07, 2018, 04:52:57 AM
The original reason for 67 cops and three of Hoover's FBI agents going to the theater was because a man had entered without buying a ticket.  That reason was unknown to anybody in the theater....It was based on an assumption of John Brewer .....  Brewer claimed that he saw a man enter the theater without buying a ticket.....but he had no way of knowing that the man hadn't bought a ticket minutes  prior to entering the theater.   And Lee Oswald was never even asked whether he had bought a ticket....  Which was the initial reason given that THREE FBI Agents were there at the time Lee was arrested.   

How about you name the "67 cops" who ascended upon the theater?

And... Julia Postal's phone call to the police had as much to do with the police arriving at the theater as did any "assumption of John Brewer".

Why don't you stop with the exaggerations and misstatements?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on April 07, 2018, 05:07:16 AM
Pure nonesense. The TT was miles from the scene of the assassination so there was no reason to sneak anywhere.

Furthermore, Postal testified to NOT being aware of the JDT shooting so that was NOT an issue either.

There is NOT a shred of evidence showing that LHO ever owned CE 139. If you disagree then cite it.

LHO had no reason to sneak anywhere as he was NOT the only one who had left the TSBD. You are starting to sound like the run-of-the-mill LNer Brown.


Quote
Pure nonesense. The TT was miles from the scene of the assassination so there was no reason to sneak anywhere.

The theater is only about three miles from Dealey Plaza.  But, the theater was less than a mile away from where a police officer had just been killed.


Quote
Furthermore, Postal testified to NOT being aware of the JDT shooting so that was NOT an issue either.

Irrelevant.

Would that somehow make Oswald's face unrecognizable to her if she had seen it pasted all over television after moments earlier selling him a ticket?


Quote
There is NOT a shred of evidence showing that LHO ever owned CE 139. If you disagree then cite it.

That evidence had been cited, dozens of times in the old forum, and you ignored it.  I'm not jumping through your kook hoops.


Quote
LHO had no reason to sneak anywhere as he was NOT the only one who had left the TSBD.

That's your (incorrect) opinion.

For all Oswald knew, his rifle had been found and traced to him and the authorities were looking for him.

Also, he knew he had just killed a police officer less than a mile away.  Why add Postal to the list of those who could perhaps identify him and/or point him out to the police?  It made more sense to sneak in without being noticed by her.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 07, 2018, 01:40:56 PM
How about you name the "67 cops" who ascended upon the theater?

And... Julia Postal's phone call to the police had as much to do with the police arriving at the theater as did any "assumption of John Brewer".

Why don't you stop with the exaggerations and misstatements?

I can name Hoover's agents who were there at the theater....   Bob Barrett,  Bardwell Odum, and Jim Swinford....

Now why the hell would there be three of Hoover's agents there in the theater at the time ???
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 07, 2018, 09:51:51 PM
The Theater was a dark and safe Intel rendezvous where Harvey could meet his contact...

Lee then made a deliberate spectacle of himself in front of Brewer's shop doing a dramatic nervous hiding routine in order to attract his attention...When he got Brewer's attention Lee then bolted in to the Texas Theater where Harvey was being unknowingly set-up... A classic CIA plot...

This same Harvey who obeyed orders to a T also obeyed orders by being in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room during the shooting...
 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Brown on April 08, 2018, 09:23:24 AM
I can name Hoover's agents who were there at the theater....   Bob Barrett,  Bardwell Odum, and Jim Swinford....

Now why the hell would there be three of Hoover's agents there in the theater at the time ???

Totally unrelated to your claim that "67 cops" went to the theater.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 08, 2018, 02:06:08 PM
Totally unrelated to your claim that "67 cops" went to the theater.

Why would there be three of Hoover's agents in that theater ??     Was it a federal crime to sneak into a movie  ( if in fact Lee did not buy a ticket???)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 08, 2018, 04:37:52 PM
Totally unrelated to your claim that "67 cops" went to the theater.

To be candid and honest.... I admit that i just grabbed the number "67"  to sucker someone into opening a debate and arguing about the number  of cops and FBI agents who were there at the time.....  Actually I don't give a damn about the number of cops ..... But I do find it highly suspicious that Hoover was already tracking and keeping tabs on Lee Oswald before anybody else knew that the suspect was Lee Oswald.......
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 08, 2018, 04:46:43 PM


A good detective would see right away you don't have to back-track and speculate once you see my scenario...It wasn't an accident that Brewer paid attention to "Oswald"...Brewer's attention was deliberately gotten by Lee who made himself look obvious in front of Brewer's store for the purpose of drawing his attention to his running in to the theater without paying...

It amuses me to see researchers ignoring this obvious scenario and going back to the official story and taking it seriously...In all likelihood the deepest of CIA capability was employed and Harvey was mind-controlled to pull out a gun and shoot the first cops who approached him in order to commit suicide by cop... Or, Harvey was a good agent and followed his do not be taken alive orders...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mike Orr on April 09, 2018, 01:51:08 AM
Rob Caprio , thanks for the posting on all the people who left the TSBD and did not return . It is very obvious that the setup of LHO already had the markings of making him look like the Lone nut. From McDonalds arrest report of Oswald who had LHO as the man who killed JFK and JD Tippit. Of course at around 2 PM , J. Edgar Hoover had LHO as being guilty of killing Kennedy . So from 12:30 to about 2: pm, the case seems to have been solved that Oswald was the killer. LHO's revolver had a bent firing pin which would have rendered the handgun to be useless. A paraffin test was applied to Oswald's hands and right cheek; his hands reacted positively , whereas his cheek did not . These results were downplayed and even suppressed by the Federal Authorities. Check out the Nov 29th , 1963 memo from J. Edgar Hoover to Tolson , Belmont , Mohr, Conrad , De Loach , Evans , Rosen and Sullivan . This memo deals with the talks that LBJ and Hoover had about the JFK Assassination.  https:ratical.org/ratville/JFK /Hoover.html
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 09, 2018, 01:58:37 PM
Didn't you say that it was allegedly found at the Paines? I think so. Stop playing games and cite your evidence for a ring being found at the Paines or admit that you support a myth.

The ring was found at the Paine residence but not by the DPD.  Read the testimony of Ruth Paine and Marina.  It was turned over to the FBI.  Again, what exactly do you think happened here?  The ring was not on Oswald at his arrest.  It is not listed among his arrest possessions or on his finger in photographs.  So what are you suggesting happened? 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 09, 2018, 02:04:42 PM
Pure nonesense. The TT was miles from the scene of the assassination so there was no reason to sneak anywhere.

Furthermore, Postal testified to NOT being aware of the JDT shooting so that was NOT an issue either.

There is NOT a shred of evidence showing that LHO ever owned CE 139. If you disagree then cite it.

LHO had no reason to sneak anywhere as he was NOT the only one who had left the TSBD. You are starting to sound like the run-of-the-mill LNer Brown.

What bizarre logic.  The TT was only a couple miles from DP.  Police cars were roaring up and down the road in front of the TT with sirens blaring and yet you are arguing that because Postal didn't have specific knowledge of Tippit's murder she should have been in blissful ignorance of anything going on!  LOL.  Aren't you embarrassed by making that sort of claim?  If Oswald had no reason to sneak into the TT, then why did he sneak into it?  There is no evidence that he bought a ticket.  And yet he is found in the theatre. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 10, 2018, 02:41:51 PM
So you rely on unsupported claims. No shock there. Do you understand what evidence is? Doesn't seem like it.

Could you be specific for once instead of a canned response?  What "unsupported" claims?  Marina and Ruth Paine confirm the ring was found and it was turned over to the FBI.  They were the parties involved in this event because they lived at this residence.  Who else would "support" it?  But if you believe this is a falsehood for some unknown reason (particularly since some CTers argue that leaving the ring has no significance) then can you explain what you are suggesting happened?  Did someone forcibly remove Oswald's wedding ring, plant it at the Paine residence or force Marina and Ruth to lie about finding it?  It's not clear what you are claiming happened and you have thus far refused to specify.  The record as it stands indicates the ring was found at the Paine residence.  You have offered absolutely no explanation much less any evidence whatsoever that casts any doubt on this. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 10, 2018, 03:48:26 PM
Pure nonesense. The TT was miles from the scene of the assassination so there was no reason to sneak anywhere.

Furthermore, Postal testified to NOT being aware of the JDT shooting so that was NOT an issue either.




I see Rob has not figured out the whole hindsight thing yet.


I have always thought that one of the biggest weaknesses ( there are many ) some CK's have is their inability to understand hindsight.

Oswald could not have known if his description was all over the radio at that point. Oswald could not have known if a cop was going to show up at the theater within  minutes and ask Postal if she saw anyone who fit the description.

Oswald at that point could not read Postal's testimony.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 10, 2018, 04:00:01 PM
The Theater was a dark and safe Intel rendezvous where Harvey could meet his contact...

Lee then made a deliberate spectacle of himself in front of Brewer's shop doing a dramatic nervous hiding routine in order to attract his attention...When he got Brewer's attention Lee then bolted in to the Texas Theater where Harvey was being unknowingly set-up... A classic CIA plot...

This same Harvey who obeyed orders to a T also obeyed orders by being in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room during the shooting...

So you disagree with the Ck's who question why Brewer noticed Oswald?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 10, 2018, 08:07:20 PM
Truly had just vouched for him in front of a policeman.

All good.

Learn the basics of the case.

Here we have another one who doesn't understand hindsight.

You say Truly just vouched for him. How long before Oswald  went into the TT did Truly vouch for him?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 10, 2018, 08:42:46 PM
Has nothing to do with "hindsight".

Do the math if you need the number.

I can see why you would not want to put it out there after saying that Truly JUST vouched for him.  I asked you the time because I wanted to go by what you said. I don't want you argue about how long it was. Is 45 minutes good?

It is hindsight because you are going by what happened and not what could have happened. For example how could Oswald know if 3 minutes after he left the building a coworker told a cop that he saw Oswald shoot at JFK?  Obviously his description could be all over the place and obviously Oswald could not know hat Postal knew at that point. His description could have been on the radio at that point and Postal could have thought he matched the description.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2018, 12:18:27 AM
That evidence had been cited, dozens of times in the old forum, and you ignored it.  I'm not jumping through your kook hoops.

And by "evidence", Bill means subjective and unscientific handwriting "analysis" of two block letters on a photo of a microfilm copy of a 2-inch order coupon.

And moon craters.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2018, 12:23:39 AM
I have addressed your silly claims with substantive respones.

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/roflmao.gif)

I haven't seen a substantive response from you ever.  Mark is exactly right.  You're all insults and strawmen.  So your complaining about Mark's insults is really rich.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 11, 2018, 04:15:06 PM
Fine, no problem.

Your highlighted statement, and consequently what follows, makes no sense as it has nothing to do with hindsight. Hindsight is what he would have done HAD he known whatever that might be. For all Oswald KNEW he was in the clear.


It is hindsight Tom. It's your hindsight. You made the argument that Truly vouching for Oswald 45 minutes earlier would have shown Oswald that he had nothing to worry about while buying a ticket from Postal. You can make this statement because you know that no employee came forward minutes after that and told the cops that they saw Oswald shoot JFK. Oswald couldn't look back at the evidence to know exactly what was happening.


There is no way that Oswald could have known that his description and maybe name and even a picture were not out there at that point. You know it is not so because you can look back and see everything that happened. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 11, 2018, 04:48:39 PM
There is no way that Oswald could have known that his description and maybe name and even a picture were not out there.

Exactly right. Why take the chance? Same with his decision to be careful about his rooming house drop-off location.

Every one of us has had situations when we imagine the worst no matter if the reality seems to dictate otherwise.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's it... it's all over now. Poor dumb cop. That's it... it's all over now. Poor dumb cop. That's it... it's all over now. Poor dumb cop.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 11, 2018, 05:06:13 PM
Exactly right. Why take the chance? Same with his decision to be careful about his rooming house drop-off location.

Every one of us has had situations when we imagine the worst no matter if the reality seems to dictate otherwise.

That's it, it's all over now. Poor dumb cop. That's it, it's all over now. Poor dumb cop. That's it; it's all over now. Poor dumb cop. That's it; it's all over now. Poor dumb cop. That's it; it's all over now. Poor dumb cop.

Exactly. I was going to bring up the rooming house incident as an example of Oswald not being sure what was going on but figured that would start some argument about that.

I made that argument before and John I made it clear that he does understand hindsight either. He was arguing  that it made no sense for Oswald to be worried at that point because the word was not out yet. I could not get it through to him.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 11, 2018, 05:20:44 PM
Exactly. I was going to bring up the rooming house incident as an example of Oswald not being sure what was going on but figured that would start some argument about that.

I made that argument before and John I made it clear that he does understand hindsight either. He was arguing  that it made no sense for Oswald to be worried at that point because the word was not out yet. I could not get it through to him.

He's arguing from the perspective of a defence lawyer. And of a troll. And from the notion that Oswald was innocent so why would he have cause to be nervous. He reminds me of the Melissa McCarthy 'Sean Spicer' impression, on the podium running around bashing into people (but wearing a powdered wig and lawyer's robes)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2018, 10:26:14 PM
Exactly right. Why take the chance? Same with his decision to be careful about his rooming house drop-off location.

Every one of us has had situations when we imagine the worst no matter if the reality seems to dictate otherwise.

But then he leaves a back alley to walk down a major thoroughfare and stops in front of a shoe store in full view of the sales clerk long enough to "look scared" just for good measure.

So much for being careful.  But then whatever you think Oswald did that day "proves" that he's guilty.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 11, 2018, 10:29:01 PM
But then he leaves a back alley to walk down a major thoroughfare and stops in front of a shoe store in full view of the sales clerk long enough to "look scared" just for good measure.

So much for being careful.  But then whatever you think Oswald did that day "proves" that he's guilty.


Good point John.  He should have just stayed in a back alley.

That hindsight thing again. John knows about Brewer because he has studied the case. Oswald did not know that a sales clerk would be watching him.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2018, 10:32:38 PM
I made that argument before and John I made it clear that he does understand hindsight either. He was arguing  that it made no sense for Oswald to be worried at that point because the word was not out yet. I could not get it through to him.

It has nothing to do with the word not being out.  Oswald certainly knew that nobody at the TSBD or even Marina or Ruth knew where he was rooming.

It's also the same inconsistent behavior that doesn't fit with your hypothesis.  If Oswald was trying to evade the cops, why get let off on Beckley St and go running back to the rooming house in full view of any cops that would have been on their way to the rooming house?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2018, 10:53:41 PM
He's arguing from the perspective of a defence lawyer. And of a troll. And from the notion that Oswald was innocent so why would he have cause to be nervous. He reminds me of the Melissa McCarthy 'Sean Spicer' impression, on the podium running around bashing into people (but wearing a powdered wig and lawyer's robes)

You're arguing from the notion that you're sure Oswald probably did it, but are unable to ever articulate why.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 11, 2018, 11:00:14 PM

Good point John.  He should have just stayed in a back alley.

That hindsight thing again. John knows about Brewer because he has studied the case. Oswald did not know that a sales clerk would be watching him.

C'mon Brian.  Are you suggesting that a clerk being inside a shoe store during the day on a Friday would have been the least bit unexpected?  He would have seen Brewer there just as easily as Brewer saw him.  And yet, "careful Oswald" lingered there anyway.  So was he being cautious just in case or wasn't he?  It seems like he was only cautious when it fits your narrative.

Not even to mention how this careful guy supposedly hung around the Tippit crime scene emptying his gun and looking at people in the face.  Whoever this guy was, he wanted to be seen.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 12, 2018, 02:38:38 PM
Mr. BALL. During the afternoon of the week----do you take tickets too?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes----I take tickets every day.
Mr. BALL. You do?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And, run the concession?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes.
Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Being stopped by Burroughs AND having to go out and and buy the ticket anyway from Postal: two mental notes taken.

Bad worst case scenario, Bill.

Was that too complicated for you?

(No, the quote is not hindsight. Shows that imagined worst case could be very real.)

"I just failed to see him when he slipped in."

How did Burroughs know that Lee "slipped in", if he never saw him??

Simply because Lee was in the theater does not mean he slipped in with out buying a ticket..... Burroughs, in his  testimony says that he could have been distracted when a patron entered and took his ticket without noticing anything about that person....   
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 12, 2018, 02:45:50 PM
"I just failed to see him when he slipped in."

How did Burroughs know that Lee "slipped in", if he never saw him??

Simply because Lee was in the theater does not mean he slipped in with out buying a ticket..... Burroughs, in his  testimony says that he could have been distracted when a patron entered and took his ticket without noticing anything about that person....

Who would Oswald have bought a ticket from?  Postal didn't sell him one.  He doesn't have a ticket or ticket stub on him when arrested.   
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 12, 2018, 02:52:08 PM
Exactly right. Why take the chance? Same with his decision to be careful about his rooming house drop-off location.

Every one of us has had situations when we imagine the worst no matter if the reality seems to dictate otherwise.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's it... it's all over now. Poor dumb cop. That's it... it's all over now. Poor dumb cop. That's it... it's all over now. Poor dumb cop.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Poor dumb cop."  This is what William Scoggins, a cabbie who was hiding beside his cab as Tippits killer jogged by, imagined he heard .....    .

"Poor dumb cop"

Did the killer know that Tippit was just a "poor dumb cop" who was simply a patsy who had been used to lure the police to the theater where the conspirators thought Lee Oswald would be killed by the enraged cops ?


Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 12, 2018, 02:58:47 PM
Who would Oswald have bought a ticket from?  Postal didn't sell him one.  He doesn't have a ticket or ticket stub on him when arrested.

Postal didn't sell him one.

Did Postal remember every patron who she sold a ticket to??....   While she was being distracted by police cars zipping by??

He doesn't have a ticket or ticket stub on him when arrested.

I'd bet that 75% of the patrons didn't have a ticket stub on them in the theater.....People routinely throw the ticket stub away once they are inside the theater......
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 12, 2018, 03:47:22 PM
C'mon Brian.  Are you suggesting that a clerk being inside a shoe store during the day on a Friday would have been the least bit unexpected?  He would have seen Brewer there just as easily as Brewer saw him.  And yet, "careful Oswald" lingered there anyway.  So was he being cautious just in case or wasn't he?  It seems like he was only cautious when it fits your narrative.

Not even to mention how this careful guy supposedly hung around the Tippit crime scene emptying his gun and looking at people in the face.  Whoever this guy was, he wanted to be seen.

Is there any evidence that Oswald saw Brewer? I have not talked about  acting cautious or not and Ii don't care. If he was erratic then fine. That changes nothing.    For the most part I don't care about how I think he should have acted.  I don't know if most killers would have waited a few extra seconds at the Tippit seen. That leads nowhere.
At the Tippit scene he was not getting away without being seen.  How long did he hang around there John? There was no way he was not going to be seen at the Tippit shooting. To ack like hanging around a few extra seconds is going to change anything is ridiculous.;
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 12, 2018, 04:02:09 PM
Postal didn't sell him one.

Did Postal remember every patron who she sold a ticket to??....   While she was being distracted by police cars zipping by??

He doesn't have a ticket or ticket stub on him when arrested.

I'd bet that 75% of the patrons didn't have a ticket stub on them in the theater.....People routinely throw the ticket stub away once they are inside the theater......

Postal indicated in her affidavit that she was asked by the DPD when she called to report a suspicious person whether he had bought a ticket.  And she confirmed that he had not.  Do you really believe she would not have remembered whether she had sold Oswald a ticket just moments before calling the police?  And poor old Lee.  He couldn't catch a break that day!  He is in the building from which shots are fired at the president with no alibi, knocks off to go to the movies and less than an hour later passes the scene of the murder of a DPD officer (the only one in about a three year period) then for some unknown reason he draws the attention of a random shoe salesman to such an extent that he follows him and then Postal can't remember him buying a ticket just an instant before calling the cops on him and the ticket taker is distracted but unlucky Lee throws his ticket away anyway and on and on and on....LOL
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on April 12, 2018, 06:59:23 PM


      The true measure of Postal's witnessing is when she was asked if she had sold Oswald a ticket she broke down crying and could not answer...She then ran out of the room in tears...Those Texas people were old school types who didn't like to lie...The reason Postal reacted that way was because she had sold the first Oswald a ticket around 1 o'clock...It is very obvious from this behavior that Postal had been intimidated by the authorities (probably Dallas PD) and was told not to say anything...Not wanting to lie she broke down crying instead and refused to answer...

 
   Like many witnesses, her later answer was something she was coerced in to...But her first reaction was the most telling...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on April 12, 2018, 07:17:58 PM
Oh dear, our WC parrot is back.

Worth noting that Postal's affidavit is dated DECEMBER 4th. Wow, it took them way over a week to get back to her or did it need that much work to even sound creditable?

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth340274/m1/1/?q=julia%20postal

BTW, was there a need to buy a ticket it you had a pass?

Mrs. POSTAL. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50 cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket.

A whole week or so!  LOL.  And she is recounting a call that happened seconds after Oswald entered the theatre in which she was asked and confirmed that she did not sell him a ticket.   Oswald had a "pass ticket"?  I give you extra credit for trying real hard.  It's better than John I's embarrassing attempt to claim Oswald somehow and for some unknown reason bought a ticket that morning.  Not realizing the box office didn't even open until after noon.  Postal never suggested or implied Oswald had a "pass ticket."  But we await any evidence whatsoever that you have to show us that Oswald had such a pass ticket (which he presumably would need to show someone who didn't remember it - more bad luck).  Is it listed, for example, among his possessions upon arrest or did he throw away his golden Willy Wonka ticket that gave him access to the movies?  Arguing that Oswald may have had a ticket and that -  Postal - a random citizen who had worked at the TT for a decade or so - is the liar is why these conspiracy claims are laughable.  Brewer and Postal going about their normal work days are suspect parties.  But Oswald is not.  You can't make that sort of thing up. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Matt Grantham on April 12, 2018, 07:50:27 PM
 Maybe folks can weigh in on the idea that if we are two believe the witnesses there seems to be good evidence that two separate events occurred in terms of an Oswald presence One around 1.10 and another at 1.30?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 12, 2018, 09:02:19 PM
Who would Oswald have bought a ticket from?  Postal didn't sell him one.

Postal wasn't sure whether he did or not.

Quote
  He doesn't have a ticket or ticket stub on him when arrested.

This is as colossally stupid as your argument that "they never found Oswald's bag".  Do you always save your ticket stubs?  Did  any cop ever check the theater floor/trash cans, etc for any ticket stubs?  How do you even know that ticket stubs were returned to people at that theater?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 12, 2018, 09:12:11 PM
Postal indicated in her affidavit that she was asked by the DPD when she called to report a suspicious person whether he had bought a ticket.  And she confirmed that he had not.  Do you really believe she would not have remembered whether she had sold Oswald a ticket just moments before calling the police?

As much as you like to pretend otherwise, you don't know when Oswald entered the theater.  Nobody saw him go in.

Quote
And poor old Lee.  He couldn't catch a break that day!  He is in the building from which shots are fired at the president with no alibi,

So were at least 6 other people.

Quote
knocks off to go to the movies and less than an hour later passes the scene of the murder of a DPD officer

You haven't actually demonstrated that to be true.

Quote
(the only one in about a three year period)

Not sure how this is even relevant.  As we discussed on the old forum, there were other police shootings, they just happened to survive.  This is just more cherry-picking to spin a dishonest narrative.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 12, 2018, 09:17:42 PM
A whole week or so!  LOL.  And she is recounting a call that happened seconds after Oswald entered the theatre in which she was asked and confirmed that she did not sell him a ticket.   Oswald had a "pass ticket"?  I give you extra credit for trying real hard.  It's better than John I's embarrassing attempt to claim Oswald somehow and for some unknown reason bought a ticket that morning.

This is why you have absolutely no credibility.  I never claimed that Oswald somehow and for some unknown reason bought a ticket that morning.  I asked how you knew for a fact that he didn't buy a ticket.  Answer:  crickets

Quote
Postal never suggested or implied Oswald had a "pass ticket."  But we await any evidence whatsoever that you have to show us that Oswald had such a pass ticket (which he presumably would need to show someone who didn't remember it - more bad luck).

There you go again.  Your unfounded assumptions are automatically correct unless somebody can prove you wrong.  You're not just Strawman Smith and Ad Hominem Smith -- you're Burden Shifting Smith.  Or maybe we can simplify it and just call you "Logical Fallacy Man".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 13, 2018, 05:30:06 AM
You're arguing from the notion that you're sure Oswald probably did it, but are unable to ever articulate why.

You just want to argue
My conclusion has nothing to do with you, child

 ;)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 13, 2018, 05:48:21 AM
This is why you have absolutely no credibility.  I never claimed that Oswald somehow and for some unknown reason bought a ticket that morning.  I asked how you knew for a fact that he didn't buy a ticket.  Answer:  crickets

There you go again.  Your unfounded assumptions are automatically correct unless somebody can prove you wrong.  You're not just Strawman Smith and Ad Hominem Smith -- you're Burden Shifting Smith.  Or maybe we can simplify it and just call you "Logical Fallacy Man".

John the Never-ending Story Man
Man, your standard-of-proof level is downright insane

Are you going to argue all this over&and&over&over, ad nauseum, until the end of time?

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 13, 2018, 06:08:33 AM
Your total lack of understanding of the evidence in this case is astounding. Do you even know what your beloved WCR claimed?

You have NO evidence showing that he snuck anywhere.

That's it... it's all over now.

Poor dumb cop, eh...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 13, 2018, 07:12:45 AM
But then he leaves a back alley to walk down a major thoroughfare and stops in front of a shoe store in full view of the sales clerk long enough to "look scared" just for good measure.

So much for being careful.  But then whatever you think Oswald did that day "proves" that he's guilty.

You mean in a court of law? Where did I say I could prove anything here?

 ;)


Yeah, stay in the alley and expose oneself, for example, to someone gazing out the bathroom or kitchen window or even taking the garbage out, seeing a complete stranger lurking about. Said citizen(s) possibly knowing there was a manhunt underway. Shortly after the assassination. And with the cop killing scene not far away.

Yep. Stay in that alley. Great plan!

Pretty sure Dirty Harvey's first order of business would be to avoid the police cars. And talking about the 'dishonesty' you seem so fond of laying at the feet of us poor lemmings, where do you get the idea that Oswald was standing in front of the store?  Brewer clearly states (in his affidavit) that Oswald was in the lobby.

Clearly the caution shown re his drop-off location near his boarding house was repeated upon taking steps to afford himself better cover in the shoe store lobby.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 13, 2018, 03:36:16 PM
John the Never-ending Story Man
Man, your standard-of-proof level is downright insane

Wrong.  It's your standard of proof that is insane.  You believe that something is probably true, but you don't even know why.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 13, 2018, 03:39:59 PM
Yeah, stay in the alley and expose oneself, for example, to someone gazing out the bathroom or kitchen window or even taking the garbage out, seeing a complete stranger lurking about. Said citizen(s) possibly knowing there was a manhunt underway. Shortly after the assassination. And with the cop killing scene not far away.

Yep. Stay in that alley. Great plan!

Sure, much better plan to walk down a major thoroughfare with many more people.  At least nobody would be gazing out their bathroom window.  Do you ever listen to yourself?

Quote
Pretty sure Dirty Harvey's first order of business would be to avoid the police cars. And talking about the 'dishonesty' you seem so fond of laying at the feet of us poor lemmings, where do you get the idea that Oswald was standing in front of the store?  Brewer clearly states (in his affidavit) that Oswald was in the lobby.

Clearly the caution shown re his drop-off location near his boarding house was repeated upon taking steps to afford himself better cover in the shoe store lobby.

This is probably your biggest face-palm moment yet.  If you are going to be so arrogant, you might try learning about the case first.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Matt Grantham on April 13, 2018, 04:41:01 PM
  I have been listening closely to John Armstrong's YouTube video which goes into a lot of detail about the Tippit shooting and the activities of Captain Westbrook from the time of the Tippit shooting  until Oswald is arrested at the theater According to this video Captain Westbrook leaves the book depository to investigate the Tippit shooting around 1.20. Then according to the video Westbrook and three others go to Texaco station where they find the jacket under mysterious circumstances I believe this is the gas station where someone else here has stated is part of the story about the wallet It sounds like Westbrook is at the site of the Tippit shooting for less than 5 minutes around 140 Apparently it is at this time when the picture of Westbrook is at the Tippit shooting scene I assume? There is also asuggestion by the author that Westbrook may have been there at the initial time of the shooting though he seems to admit that is mostly speculation

 The other interesting fact is the video points to JFK researcher Leo Savitch sp? and his interview with Dallas Assistant DA Bowie. According to the the video Savich claims  Bowie told him that 6 phone calls came in about suspicious activity about the TT  shortly before they sent officers there  Looks like , smells like?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 13, 2018, 05:06:01 PM
Yep, Westbrook was quite the johnny-on-the-spot that day, especially considering he was a personnel officer.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Matt Grantham on April 13, 2018, 05:12:20 PM
 I try to minimze inferences, but if Westbrook was in possession of Oswald's wallet after the Tippit shooting he either had to be there at the time of the shooting and have grabbed the wallet before anyone else arrived, or he received it from Oswald #2 Lee Oswald with the white jacket In this scenario Oswald 2 is apparently the actual killer of Tippit
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on April 13, 2018, 05:39:55 PM
John the Never-ending Story Man
Man, your standard-of-proof level is downright insane

Are you going to argue all this over&and&over&over, ad nauseum, until the end of time?

Man, your standard-of-proof level is downright insane

If you have an opinion about that, you surely must have one about just how low the standard of proof should be.

So please tell us all; just how much should be ignored and dismissed to achieve the standard of proof you prefer?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 13, 2018, 05:52:49 PM
You mean in a court of law? Where did I say I could prove anything here?

 ;)


Yeah, stay in the alley and expose oneself, for example, to someone gazing out the bathroom or kitchen window or even taking the garbage out, seeing a complete stranger lurking about. Said citizen(s) possibly knowing there was a manhunt underway. Shortly after the assassination. And with the cop killing scene not far away.

Yep. Stay in that alley. Great plan!

Pretty sure Dirty Harvey's first order of business would be to avoid the police cars. And talking about the 'dishonesty' you seem so fond of laying at the feet of us poor lemmings, where do you get the idea that Oswald was standing in front of the store?  Brewer clearly states (in his affidavit) that Oswald was in the lobby.

Clearly the caution shown re his drop-off location near his boarding house was repeated upon taking steps to afford himself better cover in the shoe store lobby.


I am still waiting for John  to tell give is the plan that makes sense for Oswald. I guess John thinks it would have been a good idea to wait in the alley. For how long? 

John proves once again that he does not understand how hindsight works. Such a problem for so many, How would Oswald at that point know that it had not already been reported that a guy who resembles him is in the alley? Could Oswald know exactly what was happening on the main street until he got there? Sounds like another example of John not understanding how hindsight works. Won't even bother again with John's silly argument that Oswald should have known Brewer was \watching him. That hindsight thing again.

I don't know what Oswald's plans were but getting into a movie house is about the best thing he could do if he just wanted to kill some time ( which i believe he was doing ) until he was arrested. What better place could you go then a dark movie house? If Brewer did not see Oswald and he was able to get into the TT without being noticed he maybe could have been there for a long time.

But John knows that Oswald should have known that Brewer would have noticed him and reported it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 13, 2018, 06:09:14 PM
I am still waiting for John to tell give is the plan that makes sense for Oswald. I guess John thinks it would have been a good idea to wait in the alley. For how long? 

You haven't even demonstrated that is was Oswald in that alley.

But my objection here is that you paint a picture of an Oswald who is so careful that he has a cab driver drive past his rooming house to see if cops are there but so careless that he runs back up Beckley street in full view of cops who may be coming there.  You paint a picture of an Oswald who is so careful that he sneaks into a theater just in case the ticket booth clerk might recognize him, but so careless that he lingers in front of a shoe store without worrying about whether the shoe store clerk might recognize him.

The picture you paint is inconsistent, and that has nothing to do with any hindsight.

Quote
Won't even bother again with John's silly argument that Oswald should have known Brewer was \watching him.

Are you suggesting that Brewer could see the man in front of his shop, but the man couldn't see Brewer?  What, were there one-way mirrors installed on the storefront?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 13, 2018, 06:21:03 PM
You haven't even demonstrated that is was Oswald in that alley.

But my objection here is that you paint a picture of an Oswald who is so careful that he has a cab driver drive past his rooming house to see if cops are there but so careless that he runs back up Beckley street in full view of cops who may be coming there.  You paint a picture of an Oswald who is so careful that he sneaks into a theater just in case the ticket booth clerk might recognize him, but so careless that he lingers in front of a shoe store without worrying about whether the shoe store clerk might recognize him.

The picture you paint is inconsistent, and that has nothing to do with any hindsight.

Are you suggesting that Brewer could see the man in front of his shop, but the man couldn't see Brewer?  What, were there one-way mirrors installed on the storefront?

It doesn't matter where he came from. The argument is the same. No matter where he was he could not know if someone saw and reported him.

What were his options John? Wait in front from of the shoe store or walk down the street in front of cops that were looking for him.  No matter what he did you are making the same argument just for sake of argument.

It has everything to do with hindsight and you just can't grasp it.

So now you think Oswald should have been worried about a store clerk ( that we don't even know if he noticed ) while cop cars are drving around.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 13, 2018, 06:44:23 PM
How about entering the shoe store (returning customer!) and listen in on the radio with Brewer for the latest on the killings?

That's a win-win.

Have you actually looked up "hindsight"?

Yes. I have noted that you have trouble with it also.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Walker on April 13, 2018, 07:03:13 PM
Not also, you should have looked it up:

noun
1.
the ability to understand, after something has happened, what should have been done or what caused the event


Exactly Tom.  You still can't grasp it.. You are proving my point.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 13, 2018, 09:11:21 PM
It doesn't matter where he came from. The argument is the same. No matter where he was he could not know if someone saw and reported him.

What were his options John? Wait in front from of the shoe store or walk down the street in front of cops that were looking for him.  No matter what he did you are making the same argument just for sake of argument.

It has everything to do with hindsight and you just can't grasp it.

So now you think Oswald should have been worried about a store clerk ( that we don't even know if he noticed ) while cop cars are drving around.

You're the one whose not grasping it.  The Oswald in your narrative is either careful not to be seen or he is not.  You have him being careful only when it suits your purposes.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Matt Grantham on April 13, 2018, 11:40:57 PM
Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald's arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only ?three or four minutes later.?[444] He said the Dallas Police then arrested ?an Oswald lookalike.? Burroughs said the second man ?looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother ...

 Air Force veteran Carl Vinson claims this flight was diverted to Dallas and  landed on an obscure landing strip,and a man that got on the plane looked a lot like Oswald

 You guys know all this imagine
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 14, 2018, 12:53:02 AM
They were claims made by the DPD. You have no way of showing that LHO ever uttered them.

Besides that, "this is it" and "it's all over now" sound nothing alike.  And nobody besides McDonald heard him say either of these things, so what is the likelihood that McDonald just made it up?

But I'm sure that Mr. Chapman is 100% sure that he probably said both of these things, because . . . reasons.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 14, 2018, 01:49:42 AM
Wrong.  It's your standard of proof that is insane.  You believe that something is probably true, but you don't even know why.

Aha! The old CTer 'Appeal to Rebellion' fallacy: Believe anything you want except the official story.

Similar:
>Henry Ford: You can have any color as long as it's black.
>Orwell's Animal Farm 'All pigs are created equal, but some are more equal than others'
>You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

And so on.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on April 14, 2018, 02:26:17 AM
Aha! The old CTer 'Appeal to Rebellion' fallacy: Believe anything you want except the official story.

Similar:
>Henry Ford: You can have any color as long as it's black.
>Orwell's Animal Farm 'All pigs are created equal, but some are more equal than others'
>You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

And so on.

Aha! The old CTer 'Appeal to Rebellion' fallacy: Believe anything you want except the official story.

So, it's "believe the official story or you commit a fallacy"?

Btw, does your comment expose that you believe everything you are told by authority and have no mind of your own?


>You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

Who said that? I'm sure John never did, there is no "probably" about it!

But why don't you answer the question I asked you?


Man, your standard-of-proof level is downright insane

If you have an opinion about that, you surely must have one about just how low the standard of proof should be.

So please tell us all; just how much should be ignored and dismissed to achieve the standard of proof you prefer?

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 14, 2018, 06:44:11 AM
Aha! The old CTer 'Appeal to Rebellion' fallacy: Believe anything you want except the official story.

So, it's "believe the official story or you commit a fallacy"?

Btw, does your comment expose that you believe everything you are told by authority and have no mind of your own?


>You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

Who said that? I'm sure John never did, there is no "probably" about it!

But why don't you answer the question I asked you?

The 'rebel' fallacy points directly at CTers

Appeal to Rebellion fallacy defined
Cite: warp.pov.net

Conspiracy theories in general, and the "n% of people doubt the story" claims in particular, appeal to a sense of rebellion in people.

As Wikipedia puts it, "a rebellion is, in the most general sense, a refusal to accept authority."

People don't want to be sheep who are patronized by authority and told what they have to do and how they have to think. People usually distrust authorities and many believe that authorities are selfish and abuse people for their own benefit. This is an extremely fertile ground for conspiracy theories.

This is so ingrained in people that a sentence like "the official story" has basically become a synonym for "a coverup/lie". Whenever "the official story" is mentioned, it immediately makes people think that it's some kind of coverup, something not true.

Conspiracy theorists are masters at abusing this psyhcological phenomenon for their advantage. They basically insinuate that "if you believe the official story then you are gullible because you are being lied to". They [conspiracy theorists] want to make it feel that doubting the original story is a sign of intelligence and logical thinking. However, believing a conspiracy theory usually shows, quite ironically, a great lack of logical thinking.

This is an actual quote from a JFK assassination conspiracy theory website. It's almost as hilarious as it is contradictory:

In the end, you have to decide for yourself what to believe. But don't just believe what the U.S. Government tells you! (In other words, believe anything you want except the official story!)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on April 14, 2018, 12:17:01 PM
The 'rebel' fallacy points directly at CTers

Appeal to Rebellion fallacy defined
Cite: warp.pov.net

Conspiracy theories in general, and the "n% of people doubt the story" claims in particular, appeal to a sense of rebellion in people.

As Wikipedia puts it, "a rebellion is, in the most general sense, a refusal to accept authority."

People don't want to be sheep who are patronized by authority and told what they have to do and how they have to think. People usually distrust authorities and many believe that authorities are selfish and abuse people for their own benefit. This is an extremely fertile ground for conspiracy theories.

This is so ingrained in people that a sentence like "the official story" has basically become a synonym for "a coverup/lie". Whenever "the official story" is mentioned, it immediately makes people think that it's some kind of coverup, something not true.

Conspiracy theorists are masters at abusing this psyhcological phenomenon for their advantage. They basically insinuate that "if you believe the official story then you are gullible because you are being lied to". They [conspiracy theorists] want to make it feel that doubting the original story is a sign of intelligence and logical thinking. However, believing a conspiracy theory usually shows, quite ironically, a great lack of logical thinking.

This is an actual quote from a JFK assassination conspiracy theory website. It's almost as hilarious as it is contradictory:

In the end, you have to decide for yourself what to believe. But don't just believe what the U.S. Government tells you! (In other words, believe anything you want except the official story!)

I don't need a cut/paste explanation of the fallacy.

I would like you to answer my questions. Why don't you?

Here are the questions again;

Aha! The old CTer 'Appeal to Rebellion' fallacy: Believe anything you want except the official story.

So, it's "believe the official story or you commit a fallacy"?

Btw, does your comment expose that you believe everything you are told by authority and have no mind of your own?

Edit: as Tom has already pointed out, there is a massive difference between not just believing what the Government tells you and believing anything you want except what the Government tells you.


>You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

Who said that? I'm sure John never did, there is not even a "probably" about it!


But why don't you answer the question I asked you?


Man, your standard-of-proof level is downright insane

If you have an opinion about that, you surely must have one about just how low the standard of proof should be.

So please tell us all; just how much should be ignored and dismissed to achieve the standard of proof you prefer?

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Walt Cakebread on April 14, 2018, 10:42:53 PM
I don't need a cut/paste explanation of the fallacy.

I would like you to answer my questions. Why don't you?

Here are the questions again;

Aha! The old CTer 'Appeal to Rebellion' fallacy: Believe anything you want except the official story.

So, it's "believe the official story or you commit a fallacy"?

Btw, does your comment expose that you believe everything you are told by authority and have no mind of your own?

Edit: as Tom has already pointed out, there is a massive difference between not just believing what the Government tells you and believing anything you want except what the Government tells you.


>You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

Who said that? I'm sure John never did, there is not even a "probably" about it!


But why don't you answer the question I asked you?

>You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

Who said that? I'm sure John never did, there is not even a "probably" about it!

I don't know that anybody has said that ...("You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.")

But I'll certainly second that idea....Because we KNOW that Lee Oswald was NOT wearing light colored khaki clothing and eye witnesses swore that the man on the sixth floor WAS wearing light colored clothing.....

Therefore we have demonstrated that Lee Oswald was NOT the sixth floor shooter....so unless you're a real loon ...

 You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 16, 2018, 11:54:15 PM
Aha! The old CTer 'Appeal to Rebellion' fallacy: Believe anything you want except the official story.

There's no reason to believe any story that can't be backed up with sufficient evidence.  Calling it "official" isn't evidence.  Saying that it came from the "U.S. Government" isn't evidence.

While you're looking up logical fallacies, I suggest you take a peek at "false appeal to authority".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 17, 2018, 08:55:16 PM
>You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

Who said that? I'm sure John never did, there is not even a "probably" about it!

I don't know that anybody has said that ...("You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.")

But I'll certainly second that idea....Because we KNOW that Lee Oswald was NOT wearing light colored khaki clothing and eye witnesses swore that the man on the sixth floor WAS wearing light colored clothing.....

Therefore we have demonstrated that Lee Oswald was NOT the sixth floor shooter....so unless you're a real loon ...

 You can believe in any shooter, as long as it's not Oswald.

It's meant as sarcasm you dolt
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 17, 2018, 08:57:08 PM
There's no reason to believe any story that can't be backed up with sufficient evidence.  Calling it "official" isn't evidence.  Saying that it came from the "U.S. Government" isn't evidence.

While you're looking up logical fallacies, I suggest you take a peek at "false appeal to authority".

There's no amount of evidence that would be accepted by you lot
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Matt Grantham on April 17, 2018, 09:15:23 PM
 Bill Chapman when you go around dismissing CT's as an identifiable pathology, you need some markers for such a diagnosis One prime criteria of course would be a lack of a simple investigatory spirit and consistent principles Lets just go with the investigatory spirit aspect Do you really believe that if we were to add the depth of understandings within the CT community it would be less that of LN's ? For the LN the story is already wrapped in a tight little package and the need to investigating beyond the wrappers is of little purpose  Of course that is not likely to be demonstrable, but even here we see people such as yourself coming up with all kinds of reasons for the facts from CT's to not be as reliable as others Or we must  answer a series of question requiring conclusions of various types before we can just consider evidence in a prima facie manner I see very little psycho pathologizing of the zombie follower approach of how individuals relate to authority if we wish to wrap things in clear container
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 17, 2018, 11:48:46 PM
There's no amount of evidence that would be accepted by you lot

How would you know?  You have yet to provide any.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 18, 2018, 05:20:08 AM
How would you know?  You have yet to provide any.

Who, me? Where did I say I could prove anything?

;)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on April 18, 2018, 05:29:19 AM
The LNer 101 response. IF they really had evidence worthy of the name it wouldn't matter what CTers said, but they don't. End of story.

It wouldn't matter what CTers said even if there was no evidence whatsoever.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on April 18, 2018, 05:32:07 PM
CTer canned response 101.  Ask for evidence, be given evidence, dismiss all evidence as the product of fakery and lies, suggest the burden is on others to dissuade you of these fantasies.

And by "be given evidence", Richard means regurgitating the unsupported WC conclusions and outright falsehoods of his own and calling that evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Michael O'Brian on September 02, 2018, 01:53:21 AM
      After looking over the films War is Hell and Cry of Battle which I secured I would have to say my opinion is that Oswald either went to the Theater as part of the operation or was lured to the Theater not knowing why, because I believe there is significant reason to believe that attention was being drawn to these films, and to ask why are we not supposed to consider that possibility by the so-called informed?

Great to see you posting again James.
I would fully agree with you that attention was being focused on these films, due to the times of the Vietnam war,   The photo of Oswald outside of the cinema being shoved into the car, was a ploy designed to add fuel to the fire in the G.I's who were led to believe and angered that their POTUS had been killed by a commie.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 02, 2018, 01:44:54 PM
Bill Chapman when you go around dismissing CT's as an identifiable pathology, you need some markers for such a diagnosis One prime criteria of course would be a lack of a simple investigatory spirit and consistent principles Lets just go with the investigatory spirit aspect Do you really believe that if we were to add the depth of understandings within the CT community it would be less that of LN's ? For the LN the story is already wrapped in a tight little package and the need to investigating beyond the wrappers is of little purpose  Of course that is not likely to be demonstrable, but even here we see people such as yourself coming up with all kinds of reasons for the facts from CT's to not be as reliable as others Or we must  answer a series of question requiring conclusions of various types before we can just consider evidence in a prima facie manner I see very little psycho pathologizing of the zombie follower approach of how individuals relate to authority if we wish to wrap things in clear container

Its perfectly possible to investigate beyond the official stance, to look at what is presented as facts by CTs and non CTs and to conclude that Oswald was a lone shooter with there being no conspiracy. To hold that view doesn't mean that you consider there is no need to consider new information.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 02, 2018, 01:46:53 PM
First off, I'm not asking this to provoke a fight. I'm just curious as to what some think about Oswald going to the movies, after the President was shot at, from the building he worked in. Some of the TSBD employees left after the shooting, but he was the only one not to return. He went home got his revolver and then went to the movies. Just seems like an odd thing to do, after something as historical as the president getting shot at, happened in front of where he worked.

Did he plan to go into the Texas Theatre all along or did he make a snap decision that it was just a good place to hide when in the area and he saw/heard the police activity?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 02, 2018, 03:02:40 PM
     It is a foundational question at the heart of the terrible attack.

Indeed it is.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 02, 2018, 07:46:30 PM
Lee went to the theater because that's where he'd been told to meet his contact......   
As Walt did not elaborate and every thread goes in a thousand directions....
Quote
Some witnesses have other accounts of what happened in the cinema that afternoon. Burroughs, assistant manager, told the author Jim Marrs that someone had slipped into the theatre at 1.35pm that day But that person was not Oswald, who arrived shortly after the main feature at 1pm. At about 1.15pm this man went to the concession stand to buy popcorn. This was the man subsequently arrested by police after a scuffle. Burroughs said that Oswald had behaved oddly. In an almost empty theatre, he had sat down next to several cinema-goers in turn. The last a pregnant woman who disappeared up to a women?s restroom never to go back to her seat.

Burroughs?s story was backed up by someone called Jack Davis, who went on to become a local celebrity and radio host, but back in 1963 was an 18-year-old who had come to watch a war movie. He was surprised that the man (whom he subsequently realised was Oswald) came up and sat right next to him in the dark, almost empty theatre. Oswald did not say a word but after some minutes got up and sat next to yet another customer ? and did it once again. Later, when the lights came on, he left to see the manager ? heard the scuffle at the back of the theatre, and the man who had sat next to him during the performance was bundled out by a couple of policemen.
MORE........
https://pelleneroth.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/what-was-oswald-really-doing-at-the-texas-theatre/
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 02, 2018, 10:45:50 PM
     The facts are that Oswald was there and which movies were playing.  Since I have evaluated the cinema leaders who scripted the crime, as well as the script, in my research, the unknowns fit as unknown descriptors concerning a very obvious physical arrangement.  This arrangement plays out by criminalizing the truth and terrorizing independent journalism by processes that can only be described as ripper hatter mayhem.

Is it really being suggested that some new names need to be added to the long line of conspirators? Are  managers at the TT now suspects because of the movies they chose to screen on that day?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 02, 2018, 11:08:25 PM
Is it really being suggested that some new names need to be added to the long line of conspirators? Are  managers at the TT now suspects because of the movies they chose to screen on that day?

If Oswald changed seats a few times, there might be testimony from those he sat beside... I don't know. But one can consider the possibility that Oswald --- who was an expert in spycraft after all, according to CT tall foreheads --- the smart move would be to proposition a stranger and go home with them, thus disappearing at least temporarily.

Remember the 1971 movie version of Frederick Forsyth's Day of the Jackal, where the protagonist, played brilliantly by Edward Fox, while on the run, picks up a guy in a bathhouse, goes home with him... eventually murdering him and stealing his ID.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 02, 2018, 11:32:34 PM
     Day of the Jackal proves how serious the Confederate taunting from Hollywood is.  Watch ALL movies with closed captions.  You miss 90% of the affinity project they've posted in the interlude by trusting to ear.

I have no idea what you just said.

In any case don't confuse the 1971 version of DOTJ with the POS version starring Bruce Willis.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Paul May on September 03, 2018, 01:59:14 AM
Simply, Oswald never expected to get out of the TSBD alive and had no game plan. Everything after the killing was spontaneous. He left Marina money and his wedding ring for a reason. He never expected to see her again.  This is conscientious of guilt and common sense based on the evidence.
When finally apprehended, he lied all weekend to DPD and his own brother with ? Don?t believe the evidence? comment.  It?s the best he could come up with.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 03, 2018, 03:01:25 AM

Simply, Oswald never expected to get out of the TSBD alive and had no game plan. Everything after the killing was spontaneous. He left Marina money and his wedding ring for a reason. He never expected to see her again.  This is conscientious of guilt and common sense based on the evidence.
When finally apprehended, he lied all weekend to DPD and his own brother with ? Don?t believe the evidence? comment.  It?s the best he could come up with.


Having just killed the President, Oswald, who didn't expect to get out of the TSBD alive, suddenly finds himself outside the building, free as a bird and being able to go anywhere.

But, rather than trying to escape he spontaneously decides not to do so and instead take a walk in Oak Cliff.....

Yeah right, as if that makes a lot of sense
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Paul May on September 03, 2018, 03:04:09 AM
Actually it does considering we do not know Oswald?s state of mind.  We can only look at the evidence and surmise what likely happened.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Paul May on September 03, 2018, 03:38:53 AM
Wtf?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 03, 2018, 04:06:29 AM
Having just killed the President, Oswald, who didn't expect to get out of the TSBD alive, suddenly finds himself outside the building, free as a bird and being able to go anywhere.

But, rather than trying to escape he spontaneously decides not to do so and instead take a walk in Oak Cliff.....

Yeah right, as if that makes a lot of sense

So he merely 'takes a walk' does he... and was arrested for 'looking funny' and not buying a ticket

Yeah, right
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Paul May on September 03, 2018, 04:23:31 AM
You write and express yourself as a moron would. Is that intentional?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 03, 2018, 04:50:49 AM

So he merely 'takes a walk' does he... and was arrested for 'looking funny' and not buying a ticket

Yeah, right

Well, he supposedly turned up walking down 10th street, didn't he?

Have you been there? I seriously doubt it, because if you had you would know it's a go nowhere street in the middle of an insignificant neighborhood. What else but taking a walk do you suggest he was doing there?   
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Paul May on September 03, 2018, 05:03:35 AM
Knowing proper procedure is why I find many postings so damn entertaining.  You understand I?m sure.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 03, 2018, 05:02:28 PM
Well, he supposedly turned up walking down 10th street, didn't he?

Have you been there? I seriously doubt it, because if you had you would know it's a go nowhere street in the middle of an insignificant neighborhood. What else but taking a walk do you suggest he was doing there?

I thought you lot said he was going to a movie
Guess he thought the theatre was on a 'go nowhere' street

But okay, sure, Martin... he was just 'out for a walk'

 ;)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ross Lidell on September 04, 2018, 12:56:51 AM
Simply, Oswald never expected to get out of the TSBD alive and had no game plan. Everything after the killing was spontaneous. He left Marina money and his wedding ring for a reason. He never expected to see her again.  This is conscientious of guilt and common sense based on the evidence.
When finally apprehended, he lied all weekend to DPD and his own brother with ? Don?t believe the evidence? comment.  It?s the best he could come up with.

Don't agree Paul. Oswald was emboldened by the fact that he fired at General Walker (and missed) in April 1963 and the Dallas Police never had a clue (literally) who was the shooter.

Lee Oswald probably estimated he could kill President Kennedy with one shot. In that event, nobody may have witnessed the shooter and his location. Unexpectedly he took three. Keep in mind that Oswald hurried down the back stairs of the TSBD... presumably intending to go out the back door near the loading dock. It may seem logical to you and me that we'd have no chance of escape after killing the President in broad daylight: Not Oswald. After he shot and killed Officer J.D. Tippit he muttered: "Poor dumb cop". An arrogant individual like Lee Harvey Oswald would likely think: "I'll get away with the crime of the century". Alternately, I'll lead the cops on a merry chase until they catch me. He was "playing it by ear" up to and until he went into the Texas Theater.

To answer the question posed by the subject of this debate: Oswald did not go to the movies (an entertainment). Oswald went to the theater (a building) to hide from his pursuers.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 04, 2018, 01:14:32 AM
Don't agree Paul. Oswald was emboldened by the fact that he fired at General Walker (and missed) in April 1963 and the Dallas Police never had a clue (literally) who was the shooter.

Lee Oswald probably estimated he could kill President Kennedy with one shot. In that event, nobody may have witnessed the shooter and his location. Keep in mind that Oswald hurried down the back stairs of the TSBD... presumably intending to go out the back door near the loading dock. It may seem logical to you and me that we'd have no chance of escape after killing the President in broad daylight: Not Oswald. After he shot and killed Officer J.D. Tippit he muttered: "Poor dumb cop". An arrogant individual like Lee Harvey Oswald would likely think: "I'll get away with the crime of the century". Alternately, I'll lead the cops on a merry chase until they catch me. He was "playing it by ear" up to and until he went into the Texas Theater.

To answer the question posed by the subject of this debate: Oswald did not go to the movies (an entertainment). Oswald went to the theater (a building) to hide from his pursuers.

CTers claim Oswald went to the theatre to see a movie, not to hide from anyone.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 04, 2018, 08:32:12 PM

I thought you lot said he was going to a movie
Guess he thought the theatre was on a 'go nowhere' street

But okay, sure, Martin... he was just 'out for a walk'

 ;)

`You lot`... who would that be? Be precise!

I thought you lot said he was going to a movie

Some people do indeed say that.

Guess he thought the theatre was on a 'go nowhere' street

I imagine the same people who say Oswald went to a movie also say he was not at 10th/Patton.


But okay, sure, Martin... he was just 'out for a walk'

Since he had no obvious purpose to be at 10th street, do you have any idea what he was doing there?

It seems a pretty silly thing to do, walking down a 'go nowhere' street just after having killed the President, don't you think?



CTers claim Oswald went to the theatre to see a movie, not to hide from anyone.


Actually, only some people claim he went to see a movie. Others believe he went there for a meeting with his CIA handler
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mark Carter on September 04, 2018, 09:51:17 PM
I was. Just on a Facebook forum with my reply. I believe that Oswald had been meeting a person there for weeks before the assassination happened. The person was Robert Mahue. A high level CIA agent. Mahue was the CEO of the Howard Hughes Corp. Hughes was from Texas and he owned the Texas Theatre. So Mahue was the manager of the Texas Theatre in 1963 and his job during the assassination was to create the "pasty" for the assassination.
Mahue was also behind murdering Howard Hughes. Hughes wanted to clean up Vegas by buying up all of the Casinos from the Jewish mobsters on the Vegas strip. Hughes was held against his will by Mahue and Jewish mob high above the Vegas strip and was murdered and bankrupted. That is my opinion.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ross Lidell on September 05, 2018, 12:15:15 AM
`You lot`... who would that be? Be precise!

I thought you lot said he was going to a movie

Some people do indeed say that.

Guess he thought the theatre was on a 'go nowhere' street

I imagine the same people who say Oswald went to a movie also say he was not at 10th/Patton.


But okay, sure, Martin... he was just 'out for a walk'

Since he had no obvious purpose to be at 10th street, do you have any idea what he was doing there?

It seems a pretty silly thing to do, walking down a 'go nowhere' street just after having killed the President, don't you think?


Actually, only some people claim he want to see a movie. Others believe he went there for a meeting with his CIA handler

I answered the question that was asked... in a roundabout way.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 12:16:11 AM
Don't agree Paul. Oswald was emboldened by the fact that he fired at General Walker (and missed) in April 1963 and the Dallas Police never had a clue (literally) who was the shooter.

Lee Oswald probably estimated he could kill President Kennedy with one shot. In that event, nobody may have witnessed the shooter and his location. Unexpectedly he took three. Keep in mind that Oswald hurried down the back stairs of the TSBD... presumably intending to go out the back door near the loading dock. It may seem logical to you and me that we'd have no chance of escape after killing the President in broad daylight: Not Oswald. After he shot and killed Officer J.D. Tippit he muttered: "Poor dumb cop". An arrogant individual like Lee Harvey Oswald would likely think: "I'll get away with the crime of the century". Alternately, I'll lead the cops on a merry chase until they catch me. He was "playing it by ear" up to and until he went into the Texas Theater.

To answer the question posed by the subject of this debate: Oswald did not go to the movies (an entertainment). Oswald went to the theater (a building) to hide from his pursuers.

It's fascinating the way people make up a narrative, attach the word "probably" to it and act like that's what actually happened.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 12:18:30 AM
`You lot`... who would that be? Be precise!

That's Chapman's way of arguing with you about something that you didn't actually say.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ross Lidell on September 05, 2018, 12:47:10 AM
A more interesting question. Two questions actually... now that I think about it:

-- Why didn't Oswald go directly to the movies (Texas Theater) after leaving the TSBD rather than going home first?

-- Why did Oswald take a revolver to the movies (Texas Theater)?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Anthony Clayden on September 05, 2018, 01:09:32 AM

-- Why didn't Oswald go directly to the movies (Texas Theater) after leaving the TSBD rather than going home first?

Obvious answer based on his actual actions is that he wanted to get changed out of dusty\dirty work clothes into more casual clothes. He went to the boarding house got changed and then went out, seems like a normal set of actions.

-- Why did Oswald take a revolver to the movies (Texas Theater)?
LN Answer - As the shooter, he wanted to use it to avoid arrest, like he did at the Tippet scene.
CT Answer - 1) He had worked out that he had been set up, and was scared or 2) He was just being a lad and carrying a gun made him feel more macho. or 3) It wasn't his


I've always wondered why not take it in the morning, when he was going to do the actual shooting.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 05, 2018, 01:22:52 AM
`You lot`... who would that be? Be precise!

I thought you lot said he was going to a movie

Some people do indeed say that.

Guess he thought the theatre was on a 'go nowhere' street

I imagine the same people who say Oswald went to a movie also say he was not at 10th/Patton.


But okay, sure, Martin... he was just 'out for a walk'

Since he had no obvious purpose to be at 10th street, do you have any idea what he was doing there?

It seems a pretty silly thing to do, walking down a 'go nowhere' street just after having killed the President, don't you think?


Actually, only some people claim he want to see a movie. Others believe he went there for a meeting with his CIA handler

He had a CIA handler?
Oh, yeah a lot of people say that, don't they Martin...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ross Lidell on September 05, 2018, 01:51:52 AM
-- Why didn't Oswald go directly to the movies (Texas Theater) after leaving the TSBD rather than going home first?

Obvious answer based on his actual actions is that he wanted to get changed out of dusty\dirty work clothes into more casual clothes. He went to the boarding house got changed and then went out, seems like a normal set of actions.

-- Why did Oswald take a revolver to the movies (Texas Theater)?
LN Answer - As the shooter, he wanted to use it to avoid arrest, like he did at the Tippet scene.
CT Answer - 1) He had worked out that he had been set up, and was scared or 2) He was just being a lad and carrying a gun made him feel more macho. or 3) It wasn't his


I've always wondered why not take it in the morning, when he was going to do the actual shooting.

Perhaps Lee Harvey Oswald considered the possibility of law-enforcement checking everyone who entered the TSBD. Lee would not like to be found to have a rifle "and" a hand-gun in a building on the President's motorcade route?

Oswald could have contemplated the possibility of being stopped from leaving the TSBD after he shot President Kennedy. If not for Truly vouching for Oswald, Officer Baker would have searched him.

It seems to me that Oswald carrying a revolver in the TSBD Friday morning would have been risky. He was shrewd enough to know that.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 05, 2018, 02:05:15 AM
Perhaps Lee Harvey Oswald considered the possibility of law-enforcement checking everyone who entered the TSBD. Lee would not like to be found to have a rifle "and" a hand-gun in a building on the President's motorcade route?

Oswald could have contemplated the possibility of being stopped from leaving the TSBD after he shot President Kennedy. If not for Truly vouching for Oswald, Officer Baker would have searched him.

It seems to me that Oswald carrying a revolver in the TSBD Friday morning would have been risky. He was shrewd enough to know that.

Perhaps Lee Harvey Oswald considered the possibility of law-enforcement checking everyone who entered the TSBD. Lee would not like to be found to have a rifle "and" a hand-gun in a building on the President's motorcade route?


So it wouldn't have mattered to Oswald if he was checked carrying only a rifle. It would only be a problem if he had a rifle and a revolver. Is that really what you are saying?

Oswald could have contemplated the possibility of being stopped from leaving the TSBD after he shot President Kennedy. If not for Truly vouching for Oswald, Officer Baker would have searched him.

How in the world would you even know what Baker would have done without the intervention of Truly?

And your logic seems contradictory. The purpose for carrying the revolver would be to defend himself against arrest, right? Yet you seem to claim that he didn't take the revolver to the TSBD because of the possibility of being stopped from leaving the TSBD. But isn't possibly being stopped the main reason for taking a revolver to aid him to get away?

It seems to me that Oswald carrying a revolver in the TSBD Friday morning would have been risky.

More risky than carrying a rifle?

He was shrewd enough to know that.

How do you know this? Did you know him personally?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 05, 2018, 02:06:21 AM

He had a CIA handler?
Oh, yeah a lot of people say that, don't they Martin...


Yes... a lot of people probably say that
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ross Lidell on September 05, 2018, 02:14:28 AM
It's fascinating the way people make up a narrative, attach the word "probably" to it and act like that's what actually happened.
John,

I (or anyone else) cannot read Oswald's mind with certainty. It's a possibility that Oswald (or any other shooter) might plan to shoot President Kennedy with one shot. Criminals are by nature optimistic about committing crimes successfully and not being apprehended.

I was conveying to Paul May my opinion; not making up a narrative to deceive. It's more honest to say "probably" than not. Perhaps you should use that "adverb" occasionally, John.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 05, 2018, 02:21:50 AM
Saint Patsy went to the movies because there was nothing of interest occurring that day.

He was bored and had a sudden craving for a bucket of buttered popcorn.

Throw in the added benefit of being able to window shop for shoes en route to the theater and it's a no-brainer.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ross Lidell on September 05, 2018, 02:30:26 AM
Perhaps Lee Harvey Oswald considered the possibility of law-enforcement checking everyone who entered the TSBD. Lee would not like to be found to have a rifle "and" a hand-gun in a building on the President's motorcade route?


So it wouldn't have mattered to Oswald if he was checked carrying only a rifle. It would only be a problem if he had a rifle and a revolver. Is that really what you are saying?

Oswald could have contemplated the possibility of being stopped from leaving the TSBD after he shot President Kennedy. If not for Truly vouching for Oswald, Officer Baker would have searched him.

How in the world would you even know what Baker would have done without the intervention of Truly?

And your logic seems contradictory. The purpose for carrying the revolver would be to defend himself against arrest, right? Yet you seem to claim that he didn't take the revolver to the TSBD because of the possibility of being stopped from leaving the TSBD. But isn't possibly being stopped the main reason for taking a revolver to aid him to get away?

It seems to me that Oswald carrying a revolver in the TSBD Friday morning would have been risky.

More risky than carrying a rifle?

He was shrewd enough to know that.

How do you know this? Did you know him personally?

Martin,

It's worse to have two firearms than one. Oswald could have claimed that he was taking the disassembled rifle to a gun-shop for repair. Two guns has an aura of "armed-to-the-teeth". Not a good look when the President was going to drive by the TSBD later in the day.

It's reasonable to surmise what Officer Baker would have done if he (minus Truly) encountered Oswald "moving away from him" in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Frisk the suspect for a weapon is standard Police practice. Agree?

Oswald may have declined to take the revolver to work on Friday 22 November 1963 because of the "previous day" logistics that would be necessary to do that. Taking the S&W revolver to the Paine's on Thursday afternoon meant a risk of Marina spotting the handgun and being suspicious of the reason for him carrying the weapon. You know: Walker, Nixon (the vice-president) etc.

Oswald'd past life demonstrates his shrewdness.
-- Conning Soviet officials into letting him stay in the USSR.
-- His calm though deceptive performance on Radio in New Orleans.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 05, 2018, 02:33:33 AM
He was bored and had a sudden craving for a bucket of buttered popcorn.
These investigative contributions are invaluable. By all means continue with this tremendously dedicated research.
 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 05, 2018, 02:46:00 AM
These investigative contributions are invaluable. By all means continue with this tremendously dedicated research.
 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)

What ?  You have a problem with my research ?  What did I get wrong ?

Saint Patsy didn't like butter on his popcorn ?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 05, 2018, 03:03:22 AM

Throw in the added benefit of being able to window shop for shoes en route to the theater and it's a no-brainer.

Yep. He told Marina that morning and again the following day to buy June new shoes but didn't mention that he'd been looking at shoes for June when Brewer spotted him. It was all a misunderstanding.  :D
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 05, 2018, 04:32:10 AM
Martin,

It's worse to have two firearms than one. Oswald could have claimed that he was taking the disassembled rifle to a gun-shop for repair. Two guns has an aura of "armed-to-the-teeth". Not a good look when the President was going to drive by the TSBD later in the day.

It's reasonable to surmise what Officer Baker would have done if he (minus Truly) encountered Oswald "moving away from him" in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Frisk the suspect for a weapon is standard Police practice. Agree?

Oswald may have declined to take the revolver to work on Friday 22 November 1963 because of the "previous day" logistics that would be necessary to do that. Taking the S&W revolver to the Paine's on Thursday afternoon meant a risk of Marina spotting the handgun and being suspicious of the reason for him carrying the weapon. You know: Walker, Nixon (the vice-president) etc.

Oswald'd past life demonstrates his shrewdness.
-- Conning Soviet officials into letting him stay in the USSR.
-- His calm though deceptive performance on Radio in New Orleans.

It's worse to have two firearms than one. Oswald could have claimed that he was taking the disassembled rifle to a gun-shop for repair. Two guns has an aura of "armed-to-the-teeth". Not a good look when the President was going to drive by the TSBD later in the day.

I don't really see the difference, to be honest. Bringing a rifle to work at a building where the President is going to pass by wouldn't look good by itself, regardless of the excuse given for it. In fact, a revolver might actually be the lesser of two evils because for shooting at the President from a building a revolver wouldn't be the best choice of weapon.


It's reasonable to surmise what Officer Baker would have done if he (minus Truly) encountered Oswald "moving away from him" in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Frisk the suspect for a weapon is standard Police practice. Agree?

Frisking a guy who has just bought a coke from a vending machine at the 2nd floor doesn't seem likely for an officer who was under the impression the shots might have come from the roof. Also, frisking would require probable cause (and there was none at the time) and would have delayed Baker on his way to the roof.... so, no, I don't think it's reasonable to surmise what Baker would have done.

Oswald may have declined to take the revolver to work on Friday 22 November 1963 because of the "previous day" logistics that would be necessary to do that. Taking the S&W revolver to the Paine's on Thursday afternoon meant a risk of Marina spotting the handgun and being suspicious of the reason for him carrying the weapon.

Point taken but not really understood. Oswald had allegedly been taking risks for nearly two months with the rifle, from the moment he supposedly gave it to Ruth Paine, wrapped in a blanket, in New Orleans when she picked up Marina. That didn't seem to bother him much and he also seems unconcerned about hiding the rifle somewhere in the TSBD (which is what he had to have done) during the entire morning with lots of people moving around in the building, so why no take a similar risk and hide the revolver there also on Thursday?


You know: Walker, Nixon (the vice-president) etc.

Sorry, no I don't know.... Not really. All I know is the official version which is mainly based on Marina's tales....


Oswald'd past life demonstrates his shrewdness.
-- Conning Soviet officials into letting him stay in the USSR.
-- His calm though deceptive performance on Radio in New Orleans.


Really?





Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 05, 2018, 05:40:15 AM
Oswald'd past life demonstrates his shrewdness.
But why did he go to the movie?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 04:27:47 PM
Oswald could have contemplated the possibility of being stopped from leaving the TSBD after he shot President Kennedy. If not for Truly vouching for Oswald, Officer Baker would have searched him.

How do you know that?

Quote
It seems to me that Oswald carrying a revolver in the TSBD Friday morning would have been risky. He was shrewd enough to know that.

Let's follow this logic through though.  Wouldn't the Oswald you posit who just killed a cop with a revolver and rather deliberately ejected the shells in front of witnesses also be shrewd enough to know not to carry that same revolver into a movie theater where he was trying to hide?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 04:29:56 PM
I was conveying to Paul May my opinion; not making up a narrative to deceive. It's more honest to say "probably" than not. Perhaps you should use that "adverb" occasionally, John.

I try to only use the word "probably" for things that I have reason to believe are probable.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 04:32:55 PM
It's reasonable to surmise what Officer Baker would have done if he (minus Truly) encountered Oswald "moving away from him" in the 2nd floor lunchroom. Frisk the suspect for a weapon is standard Police practice. Agree?

What basis did Baker have for considering a guy buying a coke in the second floor lunchroom in the back of the building a "suspect"?

Quote
-- His calm though deceptive performance on Radio in New Orleans.

Just curious:  what was deceptive?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 04:33:39 PM
These investigative contributions are invaluable. By all means continue with this tremendously dedicated research.
 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)

He's a legend in his own mind.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 04:35:35 PM
Yep. He told Marina that morning and again the following day to buy June new shoes but didn't mention that he'd been looking at shoes for June when Brewer spotted him. It was all a misunderstanding.  :D

Yes, it's much more rational to look at a guy looking in the windows of a shoe store and think "just killed a cop".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 05, 2018, 07:04:26 PM
Yes, it's much more rational to look at a guy looking in the windows of a shoe store and think "just killed a cop".

Or to find him suspicious because of his reaction to hearing sirens approaching?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 05, 2018, 07:32:09 PM
Or to find him suspicious because of his reaction to hearing sirens approaching?

What reaction?  He just "looked scared and funny" whatever that means.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 05, 2018, 07:34:37 PM
Or to find him suspicious because of his reaction to hearing sirens approaching?

Yes, but the Oswald defenders say you can't look at the entire context of his actions. Instead, each of his actions have to be considered in isolation and stripped from any context in which he acted. It's like Oswald acting in a giant isolated bubble with nothing going on.

Here, he was just looking at shoes. All of the other incidents around him must not be included.

He just left the TSBD. He just caught a bus. He just caught a cab. He just went to his room. He just walked down the street. He just looked at shoes. He just went into a theater. This is how you're supposed to judge his actions.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 05, 2018, 07:43:14 PM
What reaction?  He just "looked scared and funny" whatever that means.

I meant looking scared.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 06, 2018, 03:31:43 AM
Yes, it's much more rational to look at a guy looking in the windows of a shoe store and think "just killed a cop".

Maybe on Planet CK it would be rational to ignore someone someone ducking into the alcove of your store as police cars go by and not have your suspicions aroused, but here on Planet Earth, Brewer's reaction is perfectly understandable and completely rational.

Next up: resident of Planet CK tries to imply it was irrational for the Davis sisters to suspect Saint Patsy had just killed a cop.

BREWER HERO  CK ZERO
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 06, 2018, 03:58:30 AM
Yes, but the Oswald defenders say you can't look at the entire context of his actions. Instead, each of his actions have to be considered in isolation and stripped from any context in which he acted. It's like Oswald acting in a giant isolated bubble with nothing going on.

Here, he was just looking at shoes. All of the other incidents around him must not be included.

He just left the TSBD. He just caught a bus. He just caught a cab. He just went to his room. He just walked down the street. He just looked at shoes. He just went into a theater. This is how you're supposed to judge his actions.

When you have no supporting evidence for any of his supposed actions that is where you wind up.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 06, 2018, 04:00:23 AM
I meant looking scared.

This fabricated story was created to involve Brewer when the actual evidence shows that he was most likely not involved.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 06, 2018, 05:19:47 AM
Yes, it's much more rational to look at a guy looking in the windows of a shoe store and think "just killed a cop".

If that's your best take on the events surrounding the capture of the cop killer then you will have to repeat third grade again. Do try harder next time.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 06, 2018, 05:30:18 AM
Yes, but the Oswald defenders say you can't look at the entire context of his actions. Instead, each of his actions have to be considered in isolation and stripped from any context in which he acted. It's like Oswald acting in a giant isolated bubble with nothing going on.

Here, he was just looking at shoes. All of the other incidents around him must not be included.

He just left the TSBD. He just caught a bus. He just caught a cab. He just went to his room. He just walked down the street. He just looked at shoes. He just went into a theater. This is how you're supposed to judge his actions.

That's an excellent summation of the CT method. Of course such a defense would be laughed out of court. Any half decent prosecutor would construct a narrative that connects the evidence in a logical fashion leaving the defense with a pile of parts that simply can't be constructed into a satisfactory account.

Of course Oswald would appeal on the grounds that his attorney was an idiot but that would simply delay the obvious i.e. guilty on two counts of murder.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 06, 2018, 06:19:29 AM
Yes, it's much more rational to look at a guy looking in the windows of a shoe store and think "just killed a cop".

'Just killed a cop'
>>> Did Brewer say that 'a guy' looking in his window looked like he just killed a cop?

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 06, 2018, 07:35:19 AM
This fabricated story was created to involve Brewer when the actual evidence shows that he was most likely not involved.

What actual evidence is that?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Paul May on September 06, 2018, 02:29:23 PM
As is typical of many or most JFK blogs/forums in 2018, the very same questions were asked 55 years ago.  The "WHY" questions.  They never cease because we, the public will never have the answers.  Hence, we all speculate.  WHY did LHO go to the movie theater? WHY did LHO leave his wedding ring and $ for Marina on 11/22? Thousands more why questions.  And the responses?  No different than 55 years ago. When LHO died, so did the answers yet people refuse to accept that.  Ok.  Yet, what hasn't changed is the evidence in the case.  Nothing hard, nor credible in 55 years of conspiracy.  Could there have been one?  Absolutely.  Can anybody prove one?  Absolutely not.  People ask, why would LHO shoot Kennedy?  People say he liked and admired JFK.  IMO, and ONLY mo, Oswald wasn't shooting at Kennedy.  He didn't see Kennedy.  What he did see was the POTUS and all that represented in the world.  Oswald wanted to change history.  How better to do that than kill the POTUS?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 06, 2018, 04:18:32 PM
As is typical of many or most JFK blogs/forums in 2018, the very same questions were asked 55 years ago.  The "WHY" questions.  They never cease because we, the public will never have the answers.  Hence, we all speculate.  WHY did LHO go to the movie theater? WHY did LHO leave his wedding ring and $ for Marina on 11/22? Thousands more why questions.  And the responses?  No different than 55 years ago. When LHO died, so did the answers yet people refuse to accept that.  Ok.  Yet, what hasn't changed is the evidence in the case.  Nothing hard, nor credible in 55 years of conspiracy.  Could there have been one?  Absolutely.  Can anybody prove one?  Absolutely not.  People ask, why would LHO shoot Kennedy?  People say he liked and admired JFK.  IMO, and ONLY mo, Oswald wasn't shooting at Kennedy.  He didn't see Kennedy.  What he did see was the POTUS and all that represented in the world.  Oswald wanted to change history.  How better to do that than kill the POTUS?

When LHO died, so did the answers yet people refuse to accept that.

Who are these people that refuse to accept that exactly?

And what is your argument precisely? Are you saying that LNs can speculate about the evidence (calling it "common sense") but WC skeptics can not do the same about alternate scenarios which could fit and explain the existing evidence just as well?


Nothing hard, nor credible in 55 years of conspiracy.  Could there have been one?  Absolutely.  Can anybody prove one?  Absolutely not. 

Agreed, so let me ask two more why questions.....

If there could have been a conspiracy, which can't be proven with the evidence we know today, why do LNs insist so absolutely that there never was a conspiracy in the first place because there is no evidence for it? Since when has absence of evidence become evidence of absence?

And why do LNs (including you) constantly ask non-believers of the WC conclusions for conspiracy theories and the evidence for it when it is obvious to every sane individual that the lack of such a theory does not lead to the default "Oswald did it alone" conclusion?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 05:07:18 PM
Maybe on Planet CK it would be rational to ignore someone someone ducking into the alcove of your store as police cars go by and not have your suspicions aroused,

Excuse me, when did Brewer say "ducking"?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 05:08:07 PM
If that's your best take on the events surrounding the capture of the cop killer then you will have to repeat third grade again. Do try harder next time.

Cool rebuttal bro.  Is that the best you can do?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 05:10:54 PM
That's an excellent summation of the CT method. Of course such a defense would be laughed out of court. Any half decent prosecutor would construct a narrative that connects the evidence in a logical fashion leaving the defense with a pile of parts that simply can't be constructed into a satisfactory account.

That's the whole problem.  The prosecution "constructs a narrative" first, and then desperately tries to shoehorn the evidence into that narrative.  There's nothing logical about it.

Quote
Of course Oswald would appeal on the grounds that his attorney was an idiot but that would simply delay the obvious i.e. guilty on two counts of murder.

Where does this false bravado that all LNs seem to possess come from?  Do you really think that makes your argument more compelling?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 06, 2018, 06:12:35 PM
Excuse me, when did Brewer say "ducking"?

He didn't have to, but you're excused anyway.

Point is Brewer got the impression that Saint Patsy was ducking the cops.

That's why he took the action he did.

And sorry, his action was completely rational.

Unlike you.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 06, 2018, 06:27:59 PM
I would think, given that Brewer had heard about  the assassination and the murder of Tippit, that if someone stepped into the lobby of his shop when there were police sirens in the area, stared ahead with his back to the street, then left when the sirens were moving away, that being a bit suspicious of that man would be quite understandable.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 06, 2018, 07:37:20 PM
What actual evidence is that?

My comment was based on the actual evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 06, 2018, 07:51:04 PM
Perhaps Lee Harvey Oswald considered the possibility of law-enforcement checking everyone who entered the TSBD. Lee would not like to be found to have a rifle "and" a hand-gun in a building on the President's motorcade route?

Oswald could have contemplated the possibility of being stopped from leaving the TSBD after he shot President Kennedy. If not for Truly vouching for Oswald, Officer Baker would have searched him.

It seems to me that Oswald carrying a revolver in the TSBD Friday morning would have been risky. He was shrewd enough to know that.

How does anyone know for sure that Oswald didn't have his hand gun at work that day?  I doubt that he did, but there is no conclusive way to know for certain.  To get his handgun to the TSBD on Friday, Oswald would to have taken it to work with him on Thursday, hid it all day, smuggled it with him on his trip to Irving, hid it at the Paine home that night, taken it back with him on Friday morning. I suppose he could have left it in the building overnight on Thursday but that would risk discovery.   Oswald has no real need for a handgun that morning.  He has his hands full pulling off the assassination.  He has a loaded rifle as he escapes the 6th floor.  If he needs to shoot anyone, he does so with his rifle.  Once he is off the floor, he is just another employee in the building.  And in the end, we don't need to know why to accept his guilt in the assassination.  The evidence proves he did it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 06, 2018, 08:12:50 PM
What reaction?  He just "looked scared and funny" whatever that means.

scared     
fearful, frightened, panicky, panic-stricken, petrified, scared sh*tless, shaken, sh*t scared   

1. funny haha

2. funny strange, odd, unusual, especially in such a way as to arouse suspicion.
eg: ?there was something funny going on'
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 06, 2018, 08:13:36 PM
The record is clear that Brewer found Oswald suspicious and that led to his arrest.  It is hard to understand the relevance of calling into question Brewer's motives for finding Oswald suspicious.   Even if some contrarian believes that Brewer's explanation for doing so isn't satisfactory, why does that matter unless they are implying that Brewer was a conspirator playing a role in the plot to lead the police to Oswald?  If not and the implication of a conspiracy in questioning Brewer's motives is a "strawman", then Brewer's reasons - whether reasonable or unreasonable - for concluding that Oswald was acting suspiciously doesn't seem to matter.  At best, all you are claiming is that Brewer acted differently than you would expect under the circumstances.  So what?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 08:27:15 PM
He didn't have to, but you're excused anyway.

Just as I thought.  Another misrepresentation of the evidence.

Maybe on Planet CK it would be rational to ignore someone someone ducking into the alcove of your store as police cars go by and not have your suspicions aroused
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 08:33:31 PM
How does anyone know for sure that Oswald didn't have his hand gun at work that day?

They don't.  The people who made up the narrative just decided that he picked up a handgun at the rooming house, even though there is no evidence of such.

Quote
  I doubt that he did, but there is no conclusive way to know for certain.  To get his handgun to the TSBD on Friday, Oswald would to have taken it to work with him on Thursday, hid it all day, smuggled it with him on his trip to Irving, hid it at the Paine home that night, taken it back with him on Friday morning.

Sort of like what he would have to have done with the alleged paper sack?

Quote
Oswald has no real need for a handgun that morning.  He has his hands full pulling off the assassination.  He has a loaded rifle as he escapes the 6th floor.  If he needs to shoot anyone, he does so with his rifle.

And just hope that he didn't need more than one bullet.   :D

Quote
  Once he is off the floor, he is just another employee in the building.  And in the end, we don't need to know why to accept his guilt in the assassination.  The evidence proves he did it.

The evidence doesn't prove diddly-squat.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 08:34:14 PM
scared     
fearful, frightened, panicky, panic-stricken, petrified, scared sh*tless, shaken, sh*t scared   

1. funny haha

2. funny strange, odd, unusual, especially in such a way as to arouse suspicion.
eg: ?there was something funny going on'

Ever useful as always.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 06, 2018, 08:37:44 PM
That's the whole problem.  The prosecution "constructs a narrative" first, and then desperately tries to shoehorn the evidence into that narrative.  There's nothing logical about it.

Where does this false bravado that all LNs seem to possess come from?  Do you really think that makes your argument more compelling?

Actually, it's sceptics that come with their preconceptions, find that those preconceptions don't fit the facts, and then declare the facts faked.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 08:39:28 PM
Actually, it's sceptics that come with their preconceptions, find that those preconceptions don't fit the facts, and then declare the facts faked.

Who would that be, pray tell?  "You lot", again?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 06, 2018, 09:00:35 PM
Hurts that Brewer's alert and swift reaction resulted in Saint Patsy's apprehension, eh Johnny ?

Has you spinning like a top trying to explain why Brewer suspected your client.

Sucks being you.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 06, 2018, 09:06:21 PM
scared     
fearful, frightened, panicky, panic-stricken, petrified, scared sh*tless, shaken, sh*t scared   

1. funny haha

2. funny strange, odd, unusual, especially in such a way as to arouse suspicion.
eg: ?there was something funny going on'

So even if this is true, and I doubt it, he could have been reacting to bad news he received at work, from family or his doctor. Only Brewer, a very early LNer, associated everything that LHO did to him murdering someone.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 06, 2018, 09:13:54 PM
The record is clear that Brewer found Oswald suspicious and that led to his arrest.  It is hard to understand the relevance of calling into question Brewer's motives for finding Oswald suspicious.   Even if some contrarian believes that Brewer's explanation for doing so isn't satisfactory, why does that matter unless they are implying that Brewer was a conspirator playing a role in the plot to lead the police to Oswald?  If not and the implication of a conspiracy in questioning Brewer's motives is a "strawman", then Brewer's reasons - whether reasonable or unreasonable - for concluding that Oswald was acting suspiciously doesn't seem to matter.  At best, all you are claiming is that Brewer acted differently than you would expect under the circumstances.  So what?

Hard to understand? What made Brewer competent to judge what makes someone suspicious in regards to murder?

Even you must realize that this would have been brought up at trial had there been one.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 06, 2018, 09:38:24 PM
My comment was based on the actual evidence.

What evidence do you mean?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 06, 2018, 10:39:30 PM
Hard to understand? What made Brewer competent to judge what makes someone suspicious in regards to murder?

Even you must realize that this would have been brought up at trial had there been one.

How about you explain it?  Even if Brewer's suspicion was unfounded in your subjective opinion, what possible difference would it make as to Oswald's guilt in a trial or otherwise?  Brewer's suspicion only led to his arrest.  The only relevance that discussion has is if you or your contrarian sidekick are alleging that Brewer's suspicion was a product of a conspiracy (i.e. Brewer was part of the plot to frame Oswald and somehow your fantasy conspirators conveniently ensured that Oswald walked down his street and recruited Brewer to point him out).  An absurd premise.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 06, 2018, 11:08:46 PM
Actually, it's sceptics that come with their preconceptions, find that those preconceptions don't fit the facts, and then declare the facts faked.

That's right.

Iacoletti is becoming an even bigger idiot as the days go by. Whatever it takes, no matter how preposterous Iacoletti is is prepared to say it if in his alternate universe he thinks he can muddy the waters.
He has no shame.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 06, 2018, 11:32:24 PM
The entire narrative of Oswald as soon as he left the Depository immediately after the assassination is only indicative of guilt. But the Texas Theater is perhaps the most damning because the evidence cannot be disputed and hence the absurd attempts at refutation.

Oswald was observed avoiding cops.
Oswald snuck into the Theater.
Oswald punched a police officer.
Oswald was carrying a revolver.
Oswald tried to use the revolver.

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 11:38:15 PM
Hurts that Brewer's alert and swift reaction resulted in Saint Patsy's apprehension, eh Johnny ?

Has you spinning like a top trying to explain why Brewer suspected your client.

Sucks being you.

Wrong on all three counts.  How'd you become so delusional?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 11:40:09 PM
How about you explain it?  Even if Brewer's suspicion was unfounded in your subjective opinion, what possible difference would it make as to Oswald's guilt in a trial or otherwise?  Brewer's suspicion only led to his arrest.  The only relevance that discussion has is if you or your contrarian sidekick are alleging that Brewer's suspicion was a product of a conspiracy (i.e. Brewer was part of the plot to frame Oswald and somehow your fantasy conspirators conveniently ensured that Oswald walked down his street and recruited Brewer to point him out).  An absurd premise.

There you go again.  You are simply incapable of making a response that doesn't include a strawman argument in it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 11:41:36 PM
That's right.

Iacoletti is becoming an even bigger idiot as the days go by. Whatever it takes, no matter how preposterous Iacoletti is is prepared to say it if in his alternate universe he thinks he can muddy the waters.
He has no shame.

Those who can't argue the facts and evidence just insult the opposition and hope that nobody else notices.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 06, 2018, 11:47:30 PM
The entire narrative of Oswald as soon as he left the Depository immediately after the assassination is only indicative of guilt. But the Texas Theater is perhaps the most damning because the evidence cannot be disputed and hence the absurd attempts at refutation.

Oswald was observed avoiding cops.

No, Oswald was observed looking in a window.  Everything else was conjecture.

Quote
Oswald snuck into the Theater.

Nobody observed Oswald sneaking in to any theater.

Quote
Oswald punched a police officer.

Possibly he took a swing in self-defence.  But it's disputed who threw the first punch.

Quote
Oswald was carrying a revolver.

Also disputed.  Only Nick "captor of Oswald" "serial teller of falsehoods" McDonald ever claimed to see a revolver on Oswald at the theater.

Quote
Oswald tried to use the revolver.

Also conjecture.  There was a click or a snapping noise at a time when several hands were on the gun and it was pointed at a 45 degree angle toward the screen.

But exactly none of these claims, even if they happen to be true (and you haven't demonstrated them to be anything but empty claims), tell you anything about who killed Kennedy or Tippit.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 07, 2018, 12:04:01 AM
No, Oswald was observed looking in a window.  Everything else was conjecture.

Nobody observed Oswald sneaking in to any theater.

Possibly he took a swing in self-defence.  But it's disputed who threw the first punch.

Also disputed.  Only Nick "captor of Oswald" "serial teller of falsehoods" McDonald ever claimed to see a revolver on Oswald at the theater.

Also conjecture.  There was a click or a snapping noise at a time when several hands were on the gun and it was pointed at a 45 degree angle toward the screen.

But exactly none of these claims, even if they happen to be true (and you haven't demonstrated them to be anything but empty claims), tell you anything about who killed Kennedy or Tippit.

So again you attack the eyewitnesses who were actually there and saw the events with their own eyes and then attempt to insert your own narrative. WOW!

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 07, 2018, 12:06:25 AM
No, Oswald was observed looking in a window.  Everything else was conjecture.

Nobody observed Oswald sneaking in to any theater.

Possibly he took a swing in self-defence.  But it's disputed who threw the first punch.

Also disputed.  Only Nick "captor of Oswald" "serial teller of falsehoods" McDonald ever claimed to see a revolver on Oswald at the theater.

Also conjecture.  There was a click or a snapping noise at a time when several hands were on the gun and it was pointed at a 45 degree angle toward the screen.

But exactly none of these claims, even if they happen to be true (and you haven't demonstrated them to be anything but empty claims), tell you anything about who killed Kennedy or Tippit.

So much rubbish in one post. An excellent example of Iacoletti's shameless lies.

If Oswald had gone to trial I would have loved for someone just like him to have defended Oswald. The killer would have been fried quicker than a bucket of chicken.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 07, 2018, 02:58:24 AM
So much rubbish in one post. An excellent example of Iacoletti's shameless lies.

If Oswald had gone to trial I would have loved for someone just like him to have defended Oswald. The killer would have been fried quicker than a bucket of chicken.

So much rubbish in one post. An excellent example of Iacoletti's shameless lies.

Please tell us all what exactly are the lies and provide prove for your claim that they are indeed lies.....


If Oswald had gone to trial I would have loved for someone just like him to have defended Oswald. The killer would have been fried quicker than a bucket of chicken.


Oh no... not another LN who thinks he can predict what would have happened at a trial and bases his arguments on that.... please, say it ain't so
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Paul May on September 07, 2018, 04:21:21 AM
This speculation about LHO?s movements after the shooting has (sigh) been discussed 55 years with no definitive resolution. It will be raised for another 50 years....with no resolution.  So the point AGAIN discussing it is what?  To hear the very same opinions and speculations over and over again?  What am I missing here?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2018, 05:19:05 AM
I would think, given that Brewer had heard about  the assassination and the murder of Tippit, that if someone stepped into the lobby of his shop when there were police sirens in the area, stared ahead with his back to the street, then left when the sirens were moving away, that being a bit suspicious of that man would be quite understandable.

Not only that, I saw an announcement by the DPD (Fritz I think, on YouTube a few months ago) at the onset of the manhunt, encouraging the genpop to be alert to people that might appear nervous, suspicious, etc to them. A kind of 1963 version of the present-day Homeland Security's 'see/say' recommendation.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2018, 05:32:10 AM
Hard to understand? What made Brewer competent to judge what makes someone suspicious in regards to murder?

Show us where Brewer attached anything but (what he perceived as) suspicious behaviour to the guy he saw looking in his window.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2018, 05:38:37 AM
   It's a case of the cold willies.  Once you git'm n'you can just tell.

The Divine Miss M said something similar
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 07, 2018, 02:24:23 PM
So again you attack the eyewitnesses who were actually there and saw the events with their own eyes and then attempt to insert your own narrative. WOW!

JohnM

And for what purpose?  If there is no allegation being made that Brewer was involved in the conspiracy (i.e. that is a "strawman"), then what difference does it make whether Brewer's suspicion of Oswald was reasonable or not?  This is more Alice-in-Wonderland logic from someone who knows the evidence is against their client.  Arguing that Brewer was acting unreasonably, but then denying that he is making any claim that Brewer was doing so for a nefarious purpose.  Thereby rendering the entire discussion pointless.  Clearly what Dishonest John I. is doing is trying to imply that Brewer was acting in some nefarious manner but without acknowledging that because of the obvious absurdity of that position.  An intellectually dishonest approach.  Not unlike knowing someone posted in a certain thread but then claiming they did not because the thread had been deleted and they believed no one could "prove" otherwise. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2018, 05:26:59 PM
Ever useful as always.

Another non-answer as always
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2018, 05:49:09 PM
Those who can't argue the facts and evidence just insult the opposition and hope that nobody else notices.

Those who can only make fun of an alert citizen who deemed that the 'guy' looking in his window was acting strange are only here to insult reasonable people... and hope that newbies don't notice.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 07, 2018, 06:49:51 PM
.. an alert citizen ...
Another ounce of luck? ...to add to the tons of great fortune which had already transpired.
A hole in one with every stroke and they got their man!
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 09:35:20 PM
So again you attack the eyewitnesses who were actually there and saw the events with their own eyes and then attempt to insert your own narrative. WOW!

I'm just stating the facts.  You're the one inventing the narrative.

"tried to use the revolver".  LOL.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 09:37:53 PM
So much rubbish in one post. An excellent example of Iacoletti's shameless lies.

Name a single lie in what I stated.

Quote
If Oswald had gone to trial I would have loved for someone just like him to have defended Oswald. The killer would have been fried quicker than a bucket of chicken.

Great, more false bravado posing as evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 09:38:40 PM
This speculation about LHO?s movements after the shooting has (sigh) been discussed 55 years with no definitive resolution. It will be raised for another 50 years....with no resolution.  So the point AGAIN discussing it is what?  To hear the very same opinions and speculations over and over again?  What am I missing here?

Seriously Paul, maybe it's just time for you to stop torturing yourself and find a different hobby.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 09:43:45 PM
Clearly what Dishonest John I. is doing is trying to imply that Brewer was acting in some nefarious manner but without acknowledging that because of the obvious absurdity of that position.

I never said that Brewer was acting in some nefarious manner, Mr. Strawman.  We all know who the dishonest one is around here.

Quote
  An intellectually dishonest approach.  Not unlike knowing someone posted in a certain thread but then claiming they did not because the thread had been deleted and they believed no one could "prove" otherwise.

Your mindreading skills aren't any better than your logic skills.  You have no idea what I know or do not know.  You're just attacking me because I expose your fallacies on a daily basis and you can't stand the heat.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 09:44:02 PM
Another non-answer as always

There was a question?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 09:44:57 PM
Those who can only make fun of an alert citizen who deemed that the 'guy' looking in his window was acting strange are only here to insult reasonable people... and hope that newbies don't notice.

Who are you, "Richard" Junior?  Who made fun of Brewer?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2018, 10:11:10 PM
There was a question?

Iacoletti #452
'What reaction? He just "looked scared and funny" whatever that means.'

'whatever that means'
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2018, 10:48:38 PM
Who are you, "Richard" Junior?  Who made fun of Brewer?

You are intent upon minimizing Brewer's enormously valuable contribution in this matter. You have repeatedly claimed that the DPD only went to the TT because 'a shoe salesman' saw 'a guy' who looked 'funny'.

Tell us which dictionary version of 'funny' applies most here, John.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 10:49:43 PM
Iacoletti #452
'What reaction? He just "looked scared and funny" whatever that means.'

'whatever that means'

You said "another non-answer".  What is it you're wanting me to answer?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 07, 2018, 10:53:25 PM
You said "another non-answer".  What is it you're wanting me to answer?

see post #511
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 10:57:02 PM
You are intent upon minimizing Brewer's enormously valuable contribution in this matter. You have repeatedly claimed that the DPD only went to the TT because 'a shoe salesman' saw 'a guy' who looked 'funny'.

Actually I don't think I've ever made that particular claim, but feel free to cite it if I have.

What I do think is that the police considered Brewer's man a "suspect" for no other reason than that.  They said so on the police radio.

Dispatcher 10-4. We have information that a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson.       
79   10-4.       
Dispatcher   Supposed to be hiding in the balcony.

What made him a "suspect"?  And where did they even get this "information"?  Julia Postal stayed outside and Johnny Brewer looked in the balcony and the main theater and didn't see him before he came out and told Postal to call the police.  How'd they get "hiding in the balcony"?


Quote
Tell us which dictionary version of 'funny' most applies here, John.

I don't see the the relevance.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 07, 2018, 10:58:23 PM
see post #511

You're weird.  There isn't a single question mark in what you posted in post 511.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 08, 2018, 01:55:01 AM
You're weird.  There isn't a single question mark in what you posted in post 511.

You're the weird one:
You stated 'whatever that means' in relation to 'scared and looking funny'
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 08, 2018, 06:11:30 AM
What made him a "suspect"?  And where did they even get this "information"? 

Duh.

Brewer felt Saint Patsy was trying to evade the cops.

You're just going to have to accept that your client was apprehended due to Brewer's alert and swift reaction.

Trying to imply that Brewer's actions were irrational and that the police response to Postal's call was unwarranted makes you look....uhhhh....'funny'

Hurts, doesn't it ?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 08, 2018, 08:26:35 AM
Actually I don't think I've ever made that particular claim, but feel free to cite it if I have.

What I do think is that the police considered Brewer's man a "suspect" for no other reason than that.  They said so on the police radio.

Dispatcher 10-4. We have information that a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson.       
79   10-4.       
Dispatcher   Supposed to be hiding in the balcony.

What made him a "suspect"?  And where did they even get this "information"?  Julia Postal stayed outside and Johnny Brewer looked in the balcony and the main theater and didn't see him before he came out and told Postal to call the police.  How'd they get "hiding in the balcony"?

Wasn't that because Burroughs had thought he must have gone up to tye balcony because he hadn't seen him go past him? Based on previous experiences of kids sneaking in to the theatre going up to the balcony seemed most likely.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Paul May on September 08, 2018, 07:43:57 PM
The ignorance of your posts is entertainment.  Hardly torture.  But you know that.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 02:13:39 PM
What evidence do you mean?

So, you're admitting that you are not familiar with the evidence. Good of you to do that.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 02:23:35 PM
How about you explain it?  Even if Brewer's suspicion was unfounded in your subjective opinion, what possible difference would it make as to Oswald's guilt in a trial or otherwise?  Brewer's suspicion only led to his arrest.  The only relevance that discussion has is if you or your contrarian sidekick are alleging that Brewer's suspicion was a product of a conspiracy (i.e. Brewer was part of the plot to frame Oswald and somehow your fantasy conspirators conveniently ensured that Oswald walked down his street and recruited Brewer to point him out).  An absurd premise.

This nonsense is like the alleged lunchroom encounter. Why was LHO the ONLY person that everyone was focused on supposedly? How many other people could have been "acting funny" if they were the focus of Brewer's attention?

There is no way his story is accurate nor was he qualified to tell what was suspicious or not. In any other emergency situation the police would get hundreds of tips like this and could NOT respond in force to all of them. Why did they show up at the TT in force?

The DPD received a good number of tips that lead to things other than LHO, but they never followed them at all or very far. Why is that?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 02:27:23 PM
The entire narrative of Oswald as soon as he left the Depository immediately after the assassination is only indicative of guilt. But the Texas Theater is perhaps the most damning because the evidence cannot be disputed and hence the absurd attempts at refutation.

Oswald was observed avoiding cops.
Oswald snuck into the Theater.
Oswald punched a police officer.
Oswald was carrying a revolver.
Oswald tried to use the revolver.

JohnM

And yet, NONE of this was proven to have happened.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 02:32:41 PM
Show us where Brewer attached anything but (what he perceived as) suspicious behaviour to the guy he saw looking in his window.

He allegedly followed him to the theater. Would you follow a man that you thought was suspicious of murder? Who was supposedly armed and dangerous?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 10, 2018, 02:36:20 PM
Again, our dishonest contrarian who responds to every post has neglected to answer the basic question.  If dishonest John is not implying that Brewer was part of some plot relating to Oswald, why does it matter whether Brewer found Oswald suspicious?  If the allegation is simply that Brewer had no reasonable basis to conclude that Oswald was acting suspiciously, but was just overly paranoid, then so what?  It doesn't appear to have any relevance whatsoever.   It's only in the "strawman" context that Brewer's motivation has any significance.  Just one of an increasing number of dishonest lines of arguments.  Suggesting that Brewer had no legitimate basis to find Oswald suspicious, but then denying that any nefarious intent is implied.  How about just spelling it out?  Is there any reason to believe that Brewer's actions were motivated by any other reason than that he found Oswald's conduct suspicious -whether that suspicion was reasonable or not in your subjective opinion?  Are you suggesting that Brewer's motivation was based on something other than finding Oswald suspicious? 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 10, 2018, 02:45:00 PM
This nonsense is like the alleged lunchroom encounter. Why was LHO the ONLY person that everyone was focused on supposedly? How many other people could have been "acting funny" if they were the focus of Brewer's attention?

There is no way his story is accurate nor was he qualified to tell what was suspicious or not. In any other emergency situation the police would get hundreds of tips like this and could NOT respond in force to all of them. Why did they show up at the TT in force?

The DPD received a good number of tips that lead to things other than LHO, but they never followed them at all or very far. Why is that?

Good grief.  The DPD received a call indicating that a man in the vicinity of a murder was acting suspiciously.  They had no choice but to pursue this lead and act as though the subject might be their murder suspect.  An armed and dangerous person.  He could very well have turned out NOT to be the person.  But they had to respond as though he could be for their own safety.  When approached Oswald put up a fight.  The DPD responded to the guy seen running in the library in the exact same manner.  They approached him as a potential murder suspect.  He was able to explain himself, however, and was let go.  He did not punch a police officer and attempt to shoot him.   Answer the one question that your dishonest sidekick will not.  Are you suggesting that Brewer was playing some role in a plot to frame Oswald? 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 02:45:59 PM
Here is more background on the arrest of LHO.

***************************************

Anyone that has followed this case or took the time to learn this case knows that the Warren Commission (WC) claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) was wearing Commission Exhibit (CE) 150 when he was arrested.  They also know this is a LONG-SLEEVE shirt.  Keep that in mind.

The WC also claimed when LHO was arrested at the Texas Theater he had a revolver on him and that he tried to use it on a cop to avoid being arrested.  This alleged revolver was entered into evidence as CE 143.  The problem for the WC was the same problem they had for the rifle LHO allegedly owned -- they had NO evidence to show he ordered that specific weapon and received it at his Dallas P.O. Box.  IOW's, they had NO way to LINK that pistol to LHO.

Let's get back to the claim about LHO pulling out the pistol in the theater.  One witness there, George Applin (he would later tell us in an interview that Jack Ruby was in the theater too), described what he saw this way.


********************************************

Mr. BALL - Did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four or five officers were there.

Mr. BALL - Then did you see a gun?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; but only--there was one gun. The pistol. It came into view before any of the other officers got there.

Mr. BALL - That is what I mean. What do you say happened about that? Who pulled a gun?

Mr. APPLIN - Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating] and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun was pointed out that way [indicating].

Mr. BALL - Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir

Mr. BALL - Did he stand up?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL - Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?

Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; along about

Mr. BALL - Where?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess about his hips.

Mr. BALL - Then what did Oswald do?

Mr. APPLIN - He took a right-hand swing at him.

Mr. BALL - What did the officer do?

Mr. APPLIN - The officer grabbed him then.

Mr. BALL - Had you seen the pistol up to that time?

Mr. APPLIN - No, sir; there was not one in view then.

Mr. BALL - How soon after that did you see the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. BALL - Who pulled the pistol?

Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

As we have seen, the WC claimed LHO was wearing a LONG-SLEEVED shirt, so how could it be LHO pulling the gun when Applin said the man was wearing a short-sleeved shirt?

His comment about the gun not coming out until AFTER the four of five cops coming is interesting too, as why would LHO wait so long?  Could it be one of these cops was the one to pull a pistol?

Let's look at Johnny Brewer's testimony now.


Mr. BELIN - Who hit who first?

Mr. BREWER - Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.

Mr. BELIN - Who knocked who?

Mr. BREWER - He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.

Mr. BELIN - When you say he was----

Mr. BREWER - McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and----in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.

How do we rectify this with what Applin saw?  We don't. Why didn't they ask him what type of shirt the person with the gun had on? I am NOT out to defend LHO as the LNers claim, I am out for the truth.  Given the FACT Brewer was so supposedly instrumental in getting the cops there we have to take his comments with a grain of salt with NO corroboration in my mind.  He had a VESTED interest in making LHO sound guilty.

Look at this conflicting testimony here.


Mr. BELIN - Did you see from where the gun came?

Mr. BREWER - No.

Mr. BELIN - You saw the gun up in the air?

Mr. BREWER - And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."

And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting, and I heard some of the police holier, I don't know who it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.

Wow.  Where to begin here?  First of all, IF he did NOT know where the gun came from how can he be so certain it was LHO that drew it? Furthermore, just because someone yells "He's got a gun" does NOT mean he does.  How many times have cops shot a suspect thinking they had a gun when NO gun was ever found on them? This cry could have been to set-up of the shooting of LHO for all we know.

He mentions LHO was fighting the cops a couple of times, but in the comments below he will say something TOTALLY DIFFERENT.  Finally, we come to the statement about someone saying "Kill the President, will you."  How in the world could they know this at this early stage UNLESS they knew he would be the patsy for the crime?  Remember, he was ARRESTED for the murder of JDT at this point, NOT the killing of JFK.

Here is Brewer's conflicting comment.


Mr. BELIN - Was he fighting back at that time?

Mr. BREWER - Yes; he was fighting back.

Mr. BELIN - Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER - Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and they took him out.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see police officers hit him after they got the handcuffs on him?

Mr. BREWER - No; I didn't see them.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald stopped fighting?

Mr. BREWER - No.

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. BREWER - As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around and hollered, "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not resisting arrest." And they took him on outside.

Does this make any sense to anyone reading this? Why would LHO fight like a madman supposedly in the theater where he could have been shot quite easily, but then say after he was subdued and handcuffed "I'm NOT resisting arrest"?  This seems BACKWARDS to me, how about you?

Look at this interesting comment.


Mr. BELIN - Then what happened?

Mr. BREWER - Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them aside, and another officer was taking their names and addresses of all the people that were in the theatre.

This is PROPER police procedure, but we are led to believe NO one did this for one of the main witnesses in the WC's arsenal -- Howard Brennan!  NOT one cop, Secret Service (SS) Agent or FBI Agent could be found to say they were the one that took the description he allegedly gave at 12:45 P.M.!  NOT one cop, SS Agent or FBI Agent had his name in their book like we see happening at the theater.  Why not?

Why was this alleged description (minus the clothing) used to arrest LHO for the KILLING OF JDT when it went out as the for being the shooter of JFK?

Once again we see a major discrepancy in what the WC claimed and what it could show, therefore, their conclusion is sunk again.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 02:54:09 PM
Good grief.  The DPD received a call indicating that a man in the vicinity of a murder was acting suspiciously.  They had no choice but to pursue this lead and act as though the subject might be their murder suspect.  An armed and dangerous person.  He could very well have turned out NOT to be the person.  But they had to respond as though he could be for their own safety.  When approached Oswald put up a fight.  The DPD responded to the guy seen running in the library in the exact same manner.  They approached him as a potential murder suspect.  He was able to explain himself, however, and was let go.  He did not punch a police officer and attempt to shoot him.   Answer the one question that your dishonest sidekick will not.  Are you suggesting that Brewer was playing some role in a plot to frame Oswald?

Good grief. When and where did he call the police? Be specific and use the evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 10, 2018, 02:55:25 PM
Again, our dishonest contrarian who responds to every post has neglected to answer the basic question.  If dishonest John is not implying that Brewer was part of some plot relating to Oswald, why does it matter whether Brewer found Oswald suspicious?  If the allegation is simply that Brewer had no reasonable basis to conclude that Oswald was acting suspiciously, but was just overly paranoid, then so what?  It doesn't appear to have any relevance whatsoever.   It's only in the "strawman" context that Brewer's motivation has any significance.  Just one of an increasing number of dishonest lines of arguments.  Suggesting that Brewer had no legitimate basis to find Oswald suspicious, but then denying that any nefarious intent is implied.  How about just spelling it out?  Is there any reason to believe that Brewer's actions were motivated by any other reason than that he found Oswald's conduct suspicious -whether that suspicion was reasonable or not in your subjective opinion?  Are you suggesting that Brewer's motivation was based on something other than finding Oswald suspicious?
And to again point to the obvious: this questioning of motive on Brewer's part comes from the very same person who insists we can only look at Oswald's behavior in isolation, stripped of any context and that to ascribe criminal motive or intent to them is not only wrong but rejected with the child like "LOL" response.

Oswald's acts are judged in isolation - "He just left Marina money", "He just took a bus", "He just took a cab", "He just went to a movie" - while Brewer's (and other's ) every move is questioned as having nefarious purposes or motive.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 02:57:48 PM
And to again point to the obvious: this questioning of motive on Brewer's part comes from the very same person who insists we can only look at Oswald's behavior in isolation, stripped of any context and that to ascribe criminal motive or intent to them is not only wrong but rejected with the child like "LOL" response.

Oswald's acts are judged in isolation - "He just left Marina money", "He just took a bus", "He just took a cab", "He just went to a movie" - while Brewer's (and other's ) every move is viewed as having nefarious purposes or motive.

Why not show that Brewer mattered? When and where did he call the police? Be specific and use the evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 10, 2018, 02:58:57 PM
Good grief. When and where did he call the police? Be specific and use the evidence.

LOL. No one ever said Brewer called the police.  I said the police received a call reporting a suspicious person.  The record confirms that Postal called the DPD to report a suspicious person.  Now that your lame distraction has failed, are you alleging that Brewer's actions were motivated by his being a conspirator in a plot to frame Oswald?  That appears to be what you are clearly implying, but if not just say that you believe Brewer was just acting unreasonably in your kooky subjective opinion but there is no sinister conclusion to be drawn from this.  I don't see why it is so difficult to own your claim.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 10, 2018, 03:09:11 PM
And to again point to the obvious: this questioning of motive on Brewer's part comes from the very same person who insists we can only look at Oswald's behavior in isolation, stripped of any context and that to ascribe criminal motive or intent to them is not only wrong but rejected with the child like "LOL" response.

Oswald's acts are judged in isolation - "He just left Marina money", "He just took a bus", "He just took a cab", "He just went to a movie" - while Brewer's (and other's ) every move is viewed as having nefarious purposes or motive.

Yes, it's the same old broken, dishonest tune.  Dishonest John wants to eat his cake and have it too.  Going on and on suggesting that Brewer had no legitimate basis to find Oswald's conduct suspicious, but then denying that he is implying that there is something nefarious about this.  It's laughable. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 03:16:34 PM
LOL. No one ever said Brewer called the police.  I said the police received a call reporting a suspicious person.  The record confirms that Postal called the DPD to report a suspicious person.  Now that your lame distraction has failed, are you alleging that Brewer's actions were motivated by his being a conspirator in a plot to frame Oswald?  That appears to be what you are clearly implying, but if not just say that you believe Brewer was just acting unreasonably in your kooky subjective opinion but there is no sinister conclusion to be drawn from this.  I don't see why it is so difficult to own your claim.

Who made the call? Be specific and use the evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 10, 2018, 03:47:59 PM
And to again point to the obvious: this questioning of motive on Brewer's part comes from the very same person who insists we can only look at Oswald's behavior in isolation, stripped of any context and that to ascribe criminal motive or intent to them is not only wrong but rejected with the child like "LOL" response.

Oswald's acts are judged in isolation - "He just left Marina money", "He just took a bus", "He just took a cab", "He just went to a movie" - while Brewer's (and other's ) every move is questioned as having nefarious purposes or motive.

Yep, just like he left work because he figured 'there'd be no more work today', based on the commotion going on outside.

Seems kind of odd that Saint Patsy isn't even slightly interested in what happened, but maybe that's just me.

No time to waste, so why hang around for even a moment ?   There was shoe shopping to be done.  And then Gummy Bears and buttered popcorn.

Saint Patsy just got an early start to the weekend. It's just not fair to read anything else into it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 10, 2018, 03:58:03 PM
Who made the call? Be specific and use the evidence.

LOL.  We are going down the usual Caprio rabbit hole.  Are you now claiming the DPD did not receive a call?  Is Postal involved in the plot as well and lying about calling the police?  I have to be "specific and use evidence" for a point that is a matter of record?  While you will not answer a simple question as to whether you are claiming Brewer was part of a plot.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338516/m1/1/
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 10, 2018, 05:47:44 PM
So, you're admitting that you are not familiar with the evidence. Good of you to do that.

Why not just say what evidence you were referring too? As I've said I don't claim to be an expert and have come back to this topic some tears after my initial interest. I had hoped to have some sensible discussions here but everyone seems to be locked into their positions and into having a go at each other.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 09:42:16 PM
LOL.  We are going down the usual Caprio rabbit hole.  Are you now claiming the DPD did not receive a call?  Is Postal involved in the plot as well and lying about calling the police?  I have to be "specific and use evidence" for a point that is a matter of record?  While you will not answer a simple question as to whether you are claiming Brewer was part of a plot.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338516/m1/1/

LOL. We are now going down the Smith "shift the burden" path. You HAVE TO show that a call took place alerting the police to the LHO alleged sighting. Well?

Who called? Be specific and use the evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 10, 2018, 09:49:01 PM
Why not just say what evidence you were referring too? As I've said I don't claim to be an expert and have come back to this topic some tears after my initial interest. I had hoped to have some sensible discussions here but everyone seems to be locked into their positions and into having a go at each other.

Why don't you state what your issue is and perhaps I can help you. Unless you are locked into your position of course.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 10, 2018, 10:48:01 PM
Why don't you state what your issue is and perhaps I can help you. Unless you are locked into your position of course.

I don't have an issue, other than with the fact you won't answer a simple question but would rather be confrontational and difficult. Just forget all about it and I'll make a note never to respond to one of your posts again.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:08:46 PM
You're the weird one:
You stated 'whatever that means' in relation to 'scared and looking funny'

Still trying to find the question you're wanting me to answer.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:10:44 PM
Duh.

Brewer felt Saint Patsy was trying to evade the cops.

You're just going to have to accept that your client was apprehended due to Brewer's alert and swift reaction.

Trying to imply that Brewer's actions were irrational and that the police response to Postal's call was unwarranted makes you look....uhhhh....'funny'

Hurts, doesn't it ?

How does Saint Brewer's observation make anyone a murder suspect?

The only thing that hurts is what you think passes for a logical argument.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:12:49 PM
Wasn't that because Burroughs had thought he must have gone up to tye balcony because he hadn't seen him go past him? Based on previous experiences of kids sneaking in to the theatre going up to the balcony seemed most likely.

But Brewer said that he and Butch went up to the balcony and didn't see anything.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:23:40 PM
Again, our dishonest contrarian who responds to every post has neglected to answer the basic question.  If dishonest John is not implying that Brewer was part of some plot relating to Oswald, why does it matter whether Brewer found Oswald suspicious?

It doesn't, Mr. Strawman.

It's laughable that "Richard", who has yet to provide a single verifiable example of me ever being dishonest, and who consistently lies both about the evidence and about what other people on the forum say or do or "imply", and who isn't even honest about his own name has the gall to label anyone else dishonest just because he and his bogus arguments get humiliated on a daily basis.

The question is, on what basis did the police consider the guy Brewer saw to be a suspect in the Tippit murder?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:36:08 PM
The DPD responded to the guy seen running in the library in the exact same manner.  They approached him as a potential murder suspect.  He was able to explain himself, however, and was let go.

According to Detective Marvin Buhk, a "Secret Service" man was there and told them that this man was "not a suspect".

Quote
  He did not punch a police officer and attempt to shoot him.

You haven't actually demonstrated that Oswald did either.  What's your point?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 10, 2018, 11:37:55 PM
Still trying to find the question you're wanting me to answer.

The definition of 'looking funny' you are applying here.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:39:24 PM
Oswald's acts are judged in isolation - "He just left Marina money", "He just took a bus", "He just took a cab", "He just went to a movie" - while Brewer's (and other's ) every move is questioned as having nefarious purposes or motive.

Good grief.  If you can't support your own position with facts and evidence, just make up a position for your opponent and argue against that instead.  You're Strawman Junior.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:46:08 PM
LOL. No one ever said Brewer called the police.  I said the police received a call reporting a suspicious person.  The record confirms that Postal called the DPD to report a suspicious person.

Keep in mind that Postal never actually saw this person acting suspiciously and most likely never saw him at all.

Police radio description of Tippit suspect:

"I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt,"

Postal's description to dispatcher of the funny guy Brewer told her he saw:

"explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me"

Quote
  Now that your lame distraction has failed, are you alleging that Brewer's actions were motivated by his being a conspirator in a plot to frame Oswald?  That appears to be what you are clearly implying,

Why don't you try responding to what people actually say rather than what you think they are "clearly implying"?  You have a lousy track record for mind reading.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:50:31 PM
Yes, it's the same old broken, dishonest tune.  Dishonest John wants to eat his cake and have it too.  Going on and on suggesting that Brewer had no legitimate basis to find Oswald's conduct suspicious, but then denying that he is implying that there is something nefarious about this.  It's laughable.

Quote me ever "implying that there is something nefarious about this", Dishonest "Richard".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:53:48 PM
Seems kind of odd that Saint Patsy isn't even slightly interested in what happened, but maybe that's just me.

Just you, Saint Logical Fallacy.  And your other irrational brethren who think that's evidence for murder.

Quote
No time to waste, so why hang around for even a moment ?   There was shoe shopping to be done.  And then Gummy Bears and buttered popcorn.  Saint Patsy just got an early start to the weekend. It's just not fair to read anything else into it.

Why present a logical argument with evidence when you can just be sarcastic and insulting instead?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 10, 2018, 11:56:02 PM
Keep in mind that Postal never actually saw this person acting suspiciously and most likely never saw him at all.

Police radio description of Tippit suspect:

"I got an eye-ball witness to the get-away man. That suspect in this shooting is a white male, twenty-seven, five feet eleven, a hundred sixty-five, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light grey Eisenhower-type jacket, dark trousers and a white shirt,"

Postal's description to dispatcher of the funny guy Brewer told her he saw:

"explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me"

Why don't you try responding to what people actually say rather than what you think they are "clearly implying"?  You have a lousy track record for mind reading.

You mean like you telling us what witnesses saw?and didn't see? in the TT? Got it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 10, 2018, 11:56:31 PM
LOL.  We are going down the usual Caprio rabbit hole.  Are you now claiming the DPD did not receive a call?  Is Postal involved in the plot as well and lying about calling the police?  I have to be "specific and use evidence" for a point that is a matter of record?  While you will not answer a simple question as to whether you are claiming Brewer was part of a plot.

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338516/m1/1/

"Woman's intuition".  That evidence is almost as powerful as a ring in a cup.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 12:00:19 AM
LOL. We are now going down the Smith "shift the burden" path. You HAVE TO show that a call took place alerting the police to the LHO alleged sighting. Well?

Who called? Be specific and use the evidence.

Huh?  I've already answered that and you already know that Postal called the DPD.  I posted her affidavit confirming that she called the DPD to report a suspicious person had entered the TT without buying a ticket.  What exactly are you claiming?  Do you have any type of coherent point?  Maybe we could move this along if you could just tell us what it is that you are suggesting.  That Postal and Brewer were part of the conspiracy?   That no one called the DPD?  I don't understand the reluctance to state your point if you have one instead of going around in pointless circles.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 12:02:10 AM
The definition of 'looking funny' you are applying here.

Are you asking me what Brewer meant by "looked funny"?

I don't fancy myself a mind reader like your buddy "Richard".  Get on your Ouija board and ask Brewer what he meant.  Personally I don't think it matters.  I want to know what evidence made the man that Brewer thought looked funny a suspect.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 12:03:49 AM
You mean like you telling us what witnesses saw?and didn't see? in the TT? Got it.

Nope I just point out all of the contradictory accounts about what happened.  That's enough.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 12:05:23 AM
This is very simple.  If you are not alleging that Brewer was acting for nefarious reasons, then what is the purpose of questioning his motives for finding Oswald suspicious?  Even if you believe his suspicion was unfounded, why does it matter?  If Brewer thought Oswald was acting suspiciously (even if he was not) it doesn't change the narrative one iota.  Brewer believed - rightly or wrongly - that Oswald was suspicious and that ultimately led to the chain of events resulting in his arrest.  So what?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 12:10:48 AM
John I is mixing apples and oranges.  The facts are that Brewer found Oswald to be suspicious.  Whether that suspicion was reasonable or not doesn't matter.  The fact is that the DPD received a call reporting a suspicious person in the vicinity of a murder.  They had no choice but to respond as though this MIGHT be their murder suspect.  He might have turned out not to be the guy.  Like the guy at the library.  Instead he starts a fight and pulls a gun.  Why that is so difficult to comprehend is inexplicable. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 12:11:07 AM
This is very simple.  If you are not alleging that Brewer was acting for nefarious reasons, then what is the purpose of questioning his motives for finding Oswald suspicious?

I don't recall questioning his motives, but I'm sure you'll either cite it if I did, or admit that you are mistaken.

Who am I kidding?  You never admit it when you just blatantly make stuff up.

I do wonder what's so suspicious about looking in a shoe store window and what he did that was interpreted as "acting scared".  Brewer never really elaborated.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 11, 2018, 12:12:09 AM
Just you, Saint Logical Fallacy.  And your other irrational brethren who think that's evidence for murder.

Why present a logical argument with evidence when you can just be sarcastic and insulting instead?

'And your other irrational brethren who think that's evidence for murder.'

Not in and of itself. You refuse to acknowledge that. You are making yourself look a troll, nothing else. You're alarmingly desperate; worse than you've ever been IMO. You and your brethren are living in The Land of Irrationality. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 12:15:19 AM
They had no choice but to respond as though this MIGHT be their murder suspect.  He might have turned out not to be the guy.  Like the guy at the library.  Instead he starts a fight and pulls a gun.

I think you're confusing your baseless claims with evidence again.  And how exactly did they determine within minutes that the guy at the library was "not the guy"?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 12:17:45 AM
Not in and of itself. You refuse to acknowledge that. You are making yourself look a troll, nothing else. You're alarmingly desperate;

Somebody thinks that supposedly "not being interested in what happened" is evidence of murder, and I'm the one who's desperate?  Please.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 12:22:11 AM
'And your other irrational brethren who think that's evidence for murder.'

Not in and of itself. You refuse to acknowledge that. You are making yourself look a troll, nothing else. You're alarmingly desperate; worse than you've ever been IMO. You and your brethren are living in The Land of Irrationality.

Dishonest John is really losing it.  He just suggested that he didn't question Brewer's motives and in the very same post questions Brewer's motives for finding Oswald suspicious.  But, of course, he is not implying anything nefarious!  LOL.  He could clear this up by telling us why it matters whether Brewer's suspicion was reasonable or not if he is not implying anything nefarious.  Even assuming that his nutty premise was correct - that Brewer had no real basis to find Oswald suspicious - it doesn't matter if Brewer is acting unreasonably but for no nefarious purpose. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 12:30:10 AM
Dishonest John is really losing it.  He just suggested that he didn't question Brewer's motives and in the very same post questions Brewer's motives for finding Oswald suspicious.

Wrong, Lying Richard.  I still haven't questioned his motives.  Do you understand what motives are?  If anything I questioned his judgment.

Quote
  But, of course, he is not implying anything nefarious!  LOL.

Why would you think I am?  Just because it suits your strawman?

Quote
  He could clear this up by telling us why it matters whether Brewer's suspicion was reasonable or not if he is not implying anything nefarious.

Already answered.  Try reading the previous posts in a thread before doing your silly posturing.

How should I know if Brewer's suspicion was reasonable?  He never explained the actual behavior that was so suspicious.  "Looked scared" could mean just about anything.

Quote
  Even assuming that his nutty premise was correct - that Brewer had no real basis to find Oswald suspicious - it doesn't matter if Brewer is acting unreasonably but for no nefarious purpose.

As I already explained in those posts you didn't bother to read, what matters is how the police responded to Brewer's unreasonable suspicion.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 11, 2018, 12:34:23 AM

I do wonder what's so suspicious about looking in a shoe store window and what he did that was interpreted as "acting scared".  Brewer never really elaborated.

I do wonder what's so suspicious about looking in a shoe store window and what he did that was interpreted as "acting scared".  Brewer never really elaborated.

There you go again... separating, hitting the pause button, reducing each moment in time down to a screenshot.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 12:39:57 AM
I do wonder what's so suspicious about looking in a shoe store window and what he did that was interpreted as "acting scared".  Brewer never really elaborated.

There you go again... separating, hitting the pause button, reducing each moment in time down to a screenshot.

Enlighten me, O wise one.  What combination of moments in Brewer's time collectively made this man "suspicious" to Brewer?  Did Brewer elaborate in some other way that I'm just not familiar with?  Or are you just grandstanding again?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 11, 2018, 12:46:51 AM
Somebody thinks that supposedly "not being interested in what happened" is evidence of murder, and I'm the one who's desperate?  Please.

 ::)

Her we go again. For the umpteenth time. Where did I ever say that any one of, say Bug53, were evidence of murder in and of their own? Yes, you are desperate, otherwise you'd stop with your nonsense in that regard. Trying to constantly separate each piece of the puzzle, in total disregard of the other pieces, (whether you consider them useful or not) leaves you stuck here long after you eventually become a poster to #IGNORE.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 11, 2018, 12:51:59 AM
Enlighten me, O wise one.  What combination of moments in Brewer's time collectively made this man "suspicious" to Brewer?  Did Brewer elaborate in some other way that I'm just not familiar with?  Or are you just grandstanding again?

You continue to ignore the context
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 11, 2018, 03:01:41 AM
How does Saint Brewer's observation make anyone a murder suspect?

The only thing that hurts is what you think passes for a logical argument.

Hmmmmmm, that's a tough one, but I'll take a shot at it.

See if you can follow along, goofy.

A cop is murdered and a search is on for the perp.

Brewer sees someone enter his storefront as the cops are passing by and gets the feeling this person is trying to evade them.

The person who is trying to evade the cops becomes a suspect in the murder of JDT.

Brewer alertly keeps an eye on Saint Patsy as he strolls towards the theater and then disappears.

The rest is history. Saint Patsy busted !

Your continual attempt to paint Brewer's actions as irrational and the police response as unwarranted is nothing short of moronic.

Brewer hero  Iacoletti zero.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 11, 2018, 08:35:30 AM
But Brewer said that he and Butch went up to the balcony and didn't see anything.

Yes, but it was dark and they didn't do a thorough search. Based on experience, and where Burroughs had been, it seemed most likely to them that Oswald has gone upnto the balcony. Seems reasonable to me given the circumstances.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 02:09:44 PM
I don't have an issue, other than with the fact you won't answer a simple question but would rather be confrontational and difficult. Just forget all about it and I'll make a note never to respond to one of your posts again.

You have dragged this on for so long instead of simply asking your question again. Why is that? You seem to be the difficult one.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 02:16:26 PM
You have dragged this on for so long instead of simply asking your question again. Why is that? You seem to be the difficult one.

How about answering the simple question that I posed?  Why are you questioning whether the DPD received a phone call reporting a suspicious person?  Are you implying they did not and that Postal and Brewer were part of a plot to frame Oswald?  Hard to understand your reluctance to imply something but then not confirm it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 02:24:40 PM
Dishonest John I goes on and on questioning Brewer's suspicion of Oswald but won't explain why it is relevant in light of his apparent contention that he is not implying anything nefarious.  And the same song and dance about why Oswald was treated as a murder suspect.  Answered a dozen times.  The DPD received a call reporting a suspicious person in the vicinity of a murder.  They respond to that report as though this person MIGHT be their suspect.  They must do this for their own safety.  It could very well have turned out that this person was not their suspect and had nothing to do with the Tippit murder.  But common sense dictates that the DPD respond as though he might be until they can check him out.  If your client Oswald had been innocent, he could have explained himself exactly like the guy did in the library.  Unfortunately for Oswald, he was guilty and decided to hit a police officer.  Bingo.  The cops have their suspect.  How can anyone suggest it was odd that the DPD responded to the report of a suspicious person in the vicinity of the Tippit murder as though this might be their murder suspect?  Unreal nonsense.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 02:57:53 PM
Huh?  I've already answered that and you already know that Postal called the DPD.  I posted her affidavit confirming that she called the DPD to report a suspicious person had entered the TT without buying a ticket.  What exactly are you claiming?  Do you have any type of coherent point?  Maybe we could move this along if you could just tell us what it is that you are suggesting.  That Postal and Brewer were part of the conspiracy?   That no one called the DPD?  I don't understand the reluctance to state your point if you have one instead of going around in pointless circles.

First of all, Postal never saw the man, allegedly LHO, enter the TT. Secondly, IF Postal did call the police it wasn't because of the JDT murder.

Mrs. POSTAL. ...And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying----well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.

She didn't know about JDT's murder UNTIL the police arrived. Also, how did the police know that they had their man on BOTH COUNTS that fast?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 03:01:34 PM
I do wonder what's so suspicious about looking in a shoe store window and what he did that was interpreted as "acting scared".  Brewer never really elaborated.

There you go again... separating, hitting the pause button, reducing each moment in time down to a screenshot.

And remember, Dishonest John is not questioning Brewer's motives here or implying anything nefarious.  LOL.  He is just wondering for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 03:05:26 PM
This is very simple.  If you are not alleging that Brewer was acting for nefarious reasons, then what is the purpose of questioning his motives for finding Oswald suspicious?  Even if you believe his suspicion was unfounded, why does it matter?  If Brewer thought Oswald was acting suspiciously (even if he was not) it doesn't change the narrative one iota.  Brewer believed - rightly or wrongly - that Oswald was suspicious and that ultimately led to the chain of events resulting in his arrest.  So what?

This is simple. I ask whether Brewer was actually involved at all as claimed. Nothing "nefarious" about it. That is your game to divert from the real issue.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 03:10:09 PM
First of all, Postal never saw the man, allegedly LHO, enter the TT. Secondly, IF Postal did call the police it wasn't because of the JDT mureder.

Mr. POSTAL. ...And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying----well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.

She didn't know about JDT's murder UNTIL the police arrived. Also, how did the police know that they had their man on BOTH COUNTS that fast?

Brutal nonsense.  That is the best you can do?  Even if she didn't see Oswald or know about the Tippit murder, that doesn't mean she didn't call the DPD.  LOL.  Is that what you are suggesting?  How about just saying whether or not you are claiming a random ticket seller was in on the plot?  Why is that so hard?  In her affidavit, Postal confirms that she called the DPD to report a person who had entered the TT without buying a ticket in an apparent attempt to elude police who were flying up and down the road right in front of her.  Part of that information came from Brewer.  She knew the police were looking for someone and that president had been killed.  Again, the DPD had no idea "that they had their man" when they received this report.  What they had was a report of a suspicious person in the vicinity of the murder.  They responded to that report as though it MIGHT be their suspect.  They had to do that for their own safety until they could check him out and confirm whether or not he was their suspect.  Just like they did with the guy at the library.  This is weak sauce even by your prior low standards.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 03:10:30 PM
Hmmmmmm, that's a tough one, but I'll take a shot at it.

See if you can follow along, goofy.

A cop is murdered and a search is on for the perp.

Brewer sees someone enter his storefront as the cops are passing by and gets the feeling this person is trying to evade them.

The person who is trying to evade the cops becomes a suspect in the murder of JDT.

Brewer alertly keeps an eye on Saint Patsy as he strolls towards the theater and then disappears.

The rest is history. Saint Patsy busted !

Your continual attempt to paint Brewer's actions as irrational and the police response as unwarranted is nothing short of moronic.

Brewer hero  Iacoletti zero.

How many other people were doing something that could be construed as "suspicious?" Why was the focus always on LHO? It was as if they knew that he was the patsy.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 03:13:51 PM
How about answering the simple question that I posed?  Why are you questioning whether the DPD received a phone call reporting a suspicious person?  Are you implying they did not and that Postal and Brewer were part of a plot to frame Oswald?  Hard to understand your reluctance to imply something but then not confirm it.

How about you paying attention? I have already answered the question. It is *your* responsibility to support the WC's claim since you support it. Who called the DPD stating that LHO was the man acting suspiciously?

Be specific and use the evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 03:15:39 PM
This is simple. I ask whether Brewer was actually involved at all as claimed. Nothing "nefarious" about it. That is your game to divert from the real issue.

Can you translate that into a coherent response?  "Was actually involved" in what?  Are you saying Brewer's role was entirely made up for some reason and he didn't see Oswald or find him suspicious?  That sounds a lot like a nefarious purpose if you are suggesting he lied about this.  So what is the narrative behind this outlandish fantasy?  The conspirators somehow recruit a random shoe salesman and ticket seller in Dallas hoping Oswald walks down that street and enters the movie theatre so they can call the police (which you have implied they didn't do).  LOL.  That is tin foil hat territory. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 03:19:45 PM
Brutal nonsense.  That is the best you can do?  Even if she didn't see Oswald or know about the Tippit murder, that doesn't mean she didn't call the DPD.  LOL.  Is that what you are suggesting?  How about just saying whether or not you are claiming a random ticket seller was in on the plot?  Why is that so hard?  In her affidavit, Postal confirms that she called the DPD to report a person who had entered the TT without buying a ticket in an apparent attempt to elude police who were flying up and down the road right in front of her.  Part of that information came from Brewer.  She knew the police were looking for someone and that president had been killed.  Again, the DPD had no idea "that they had their man" when they received this report.  What they had was a report of a suspicious person in the vicinity of the murder.  They responded to that report as though it MIGHT be their suspect.  They had to do that for their own safety until they could check him out and confirm whether or not he was their suspect.  Just like they did with the guy at the library.  This is weak sauce even by your prior low standards.

Brutal nonsense. So you are claiming that Postal called the DPD about the man that she never saw because she thought he was the killer of JFK? How far away is the TT from DP?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 03:23:07 PM
Can you translate that into a coherent response?  "Was actually involved" in what?  Are you saying Brewer's role was entirely made up for some reason and he didn't see Oswald or find him suspicious?  That sounds a lot like a nefarious purpose if you are suggesting he lied about this.  So what is the narrative behind this outlandish fantasy?  The conspirators somehow recruit a random shoe salesman and ticket seller in Dallas hoping Oswald walks down that street and enters the movie theatre so they can call the police (which you have implied they didn't do).  LOL.  That is tin foil hat territory.

So you are admitting that you cannot follow along with a simple discussion. Good of you to admit this.

I am asking for evidence showing that Brewer did anything that the WC claimed that he did on November 22, 1963. Well?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 03:24:41 PM
How about you paying attention? I have already answered the question. It is *your* responsibility to support the WC's claim since you support it. Who called the DPD stating that LHO was the man acting suspiciously?

Be specific and use the evidence.

Is there anyone who can assist Caprio here?  He knows that the record indicates that Julia Postal called the DPD.  I posted her affidavit confirming that she did so.  That seems "specific" (who called - Julia Postal) and "uses evidence" (Postal's affidavit confirming she called the police).  And yet Caprio responds over and over with this nonsense.  Can anyone interpret this?  If Caprio has cause to believe that Postal is lying, then why don't we move on to that?  I can't fathom the purpose of his asking this same question over and over without elaboration as to the purpose when it has been answered.  And the answer is a matter of the record that Caprio is already familiar with.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 03:36:33 PM
Brutal nonsense. So you are claiming that Postal called the DPD about the man that she never saw because she thought he was the killer of JFK? How far away is the TT from DP?

The facts are that the police were roaring up and down the street right in front of the TT.  Postal knew the president had been assassinated a short distance away.  I believe the distance from the TT to Dealey Plaza only is about three miles.  Regardless, she didn't have to know that the man was the "killer of JFK."  What she could see with her own eyes was the that the police were looking for someone on her street.  Brewer tells her about the man.  It doesn't take Nostradamus to conclude that someone entering the theatre without buying a ticket is acting suspiciously - particularly when Brewer is following the guy - and so she reports that to the police having no idea whether this is the guy they are looking for.  Maybe he is and maybe he is not.  All she knows is that the police are looking for someone in her vicinity and it has been brought to her attention that a person in her theatre is behaving suspiciously.  She reports it and the police respond accordingly.  All Oswald has to do is clear this up by explaining himself instead of punching a cop and pulling a gun.  Your hero can't do that, however, because it turns out he is the cop killer and assassin.  There is absolutely nothing here that is unclear or suspicious.  It is a logical sequence of events.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 03:45:29 PM
Is there anyone who can assist Caprio here?  He knows that the record indicates that Julia Postal called the DPD.  I posted her affidavit confirming that she did so.  That seems "specific" (who called - Julia Postal) and "uses evidence" (Postal's affidavit confirming she called the police).  And yet Caprio responds over and over with this nonsense.  Can anyone interpret this?  If Caprio has cause to believe that Postal is lying, then why don't we move on to that?  I can't fathom the purpose of his asking this same question over and over without elaboration as to the purpose when it has been answered.  And the answer is a matter of the record that Caprio is already familiar with.

I don't need any assist. The affidavit that you posted is all over the place. We only have her word that she called. I was hoping that you could provide supporting evidence showing which DPD dispatcher took this call. Well?

Then of course you have to explain why she thought a man that she never saw (and Brewer didn't see when she sent him in to the theater to look according to her affidavit) was the killer of JFK when the TT was miles from DP. Well?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 03:49:25 PM
The facts are that the police were roaring up and down the street right in front of the TT.  Postal knew the president had been assassinated a short distance away.  I believe the distance from the TT to Dealey Plaza only is about three miles.  Regardless, she didn't have to know that the man was the "killer of JFK."  What she could see with her own eyes was the that the police were looking for someone on her street.  Brewer tells her about the man.  It doesn't take Nostradamus to conclude that someone entering the theatre without buying a ticket is acting suspiciously - particularly when Brewer is following the guy - and so she reports that to the police having no idea whether this is the guy they are looking for.  Maybe he is and maybe he is not.  All she knows is that the police are looking for someone in her vicinity and it has been brought to her attention that a person in her theatre is behaving suspiciously.  She reports it and the police respond accordingly.  All Oswald has to do is clear this up by explaining himself instead of punching a cop and pulling a gun.  Your hero can't do that, however, because it turns out he is the cop killer and assassin.  There is absolutely nothing here that is unclear or suspicious.  It is a logical sequence of events.

All these words, but NO supporting evidence. No surprise there. Your main problem is -- she NEVER saw the man claimed to be LHO, therefore, she had NO way of knowing how he was acting.

Tell me why she thought a man that she never saw was a suspect in the killing of JFK when DP was miles away. Go ahead.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 04:11:07 PM
All these words, but NO supporting evidence. No surprise there. Your main problem is -- she NEVER saw the man claimed to be LHO, therefore, she had NO way of knowing how he was acting.

Tell me why she thought a man that she never saw was a suspect in the killing of JFK when DP was miles away. Go ahead.

I did.  She saw the police roaring up and down the road.  She knew they were looking for someone.  Maybe the JFK assassin, maybe for something else.  DP is all of three miles away!  The important point is that she knew something was going on in her immediate vicinity.  Brewer told her a guy had entered the theatre.  She hadn't sold him a ticket.  She reports him to the police.  What is so perplexing about this?  How about you answer a question for once and tell us why you think she called the police if she had no basis to do so?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 11, 2018, 05:40:07 PM
You have dragged this on for so long instead of simply asking your question again. Why is that? You seem to be the difficult one.

Ok, I'll give it one more go.

You said 'This fabricated story was created to involve Brewer when the actual evidence shows that he was most likely not involved.'

I asked 'What actual evidence is that?'

Perhaps you could clarify by saying what the fabricated story is, what the true story is, and what the evidence is relating to Brewer's involvement.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 06:03:39 PM
Her we go again. For the umpteenth time. Where did I ever say that any one of, say Bug53, were evidence of murder in and of their own?

I wasn't referring to you.  What makes you think it's all about you?  You never talk about the evidence at all...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 06:04:26 PM
You continue to ignore the context

Just as I thought.  Grandstanding.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 06:06:27 PM
Brewer sees someone enter his storefront as the cops are passing by and gets the feeling this person is trying to evade them.

The person who is trying to evade the cops becomes a suspect in the murder of JDT.

What did Brewer see that was "evading the cops"?

He stood there and "looked scared".

 :D
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 06:07:00 PM
Yes, but it was dark and they didn't do a thorough search.

Who said that?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 06:14:34 PM
The DPD received a call reporting a suspicious person in the vicinity of a murder.  They respond to that report as though this person MIGHT be their suspect.

They didn't say a person acting suspiciously entered the theater, they said a suspect entered the theater.  There was no "might" about it.  What made him a suspect in the murder of Tippit?  He didn't match the broadcast description.  Brewer didn't witness any crime.  Brewer didn't even see a weapon.

Quote
  If your client Oswald had been innocent, he could have explained himself exactly like the guy did in the library.  Unfortunately for Oswald, he was guilty and decided to hit a police officer.  Bingo.  The cops have their suspect.

Just declaring that he was guilty doesn't make it true.  Just like hitting a police officer (if indeed that actually happened) doesn't not make one guilty of murder.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 06:16:38 PM
And remember, Dishonest John is not questioning Brewer's motives here or implying anything nefarious.  LOL.  He is just wondering for no apparent reason.

"Richard" the mindreader fails at mindreading and that's somehow my fault.  Sorry you still don't grasp the concept of a strawman argument.  Maybe someday.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 06:30:10 PM
It doesn't take Nostradamus to conclude that someone entering the theatre without buying a ticket is acting suspiciously - particularly when Brewer is following the guy - and so she reports that to the police having no idea whether this is the guy they are looking for.

No, apparently it takes "women's intuition".   :D

She told the police that the man in the theater was "running from you for some reason" and that when the police drove by, the man ducked in.  She didn't witness anything of the kind.  She was out on the sidewalk looking the other way.

And before you make up yet another strawman, I'm not saying that Lying Richard's Fantasy Conspirators (tm) told her to lie.  But her statements are false.

Quote
She reports it and the police respond accordingly.

The police responded illegally.

Quote
  All Oswald has to do is clear this up by explaining himself instead of punching a cop and pulling a gun.

He didn't pull a gun, Lying Richard.

When was he supposed to explain himself?  Before or after "Captor of Oswald" tried to feel him up?  And explain what?  His funny looks?

Quote
  Your hero can't do that, however, because it turns out he is the cop killer and assassin.

The fact that you can't formulate a rational argument without your "hero" and "client" rhetoric and just stating over and over again that Oswald was guilty demonstrates just how empty that rhetoric is.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 06:40:46 PM
I did.  She saw the police roaring up and down the road.  She knew they were looking for someone.

Mindreading Lying "Richard" now turns his mad mindreading skilz on Julia Postal.

Utter nonsense.  If police cars are roaring down the road they are on their way to some other destination.  If they're "looking for someone" they stop and look for someone.

Quote
  Maybe the JFK assassin, maybe for something else.  DP is all of three miles away!  The important point is that she knew something was going on in her immediate vicinity.  Brewer told her a guy had entered the theatre.  She hadn't sold him a ticket.

She told both Brewer and the FBI that she didn't know whether or not she sold him a ticket.

Quote
  She reports him to the police.  What is so perplexing about this?  How about you answer a question for once and tell us why you think she called the police if she had no basis to do so?

What perplexes me is who told the police that the man was in the balcony.  Dallas Assistant District Attorney Jim Bowie told Leo Sauvage that there were half a dozen calls to the police.  Who were these other people?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 06:50:02 PM
I did.  She saw the police roaring up and down the road.  She knew they were looking for someone.  Maybe the JFK assassin, maybe for something else.  DP is all of three miles away!  The important point is that she knew something was going on in her immediate vicinity.  Brewer told her a guy had entered the theatre.  She hadn't sold him a ticket.  She reports him to the police.  What is so perplexing about this?  How about you answer a question for once and tell us why you think she called the police if she had no basis to do so?

So you CANNOT show that she called the DPD as claimed. You also CANNOT show why she would think a man that she NEVER saw was a suspect in the JFK murder miles away. Got it.

I thought so.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 07:05:59 PM
Ok, I'll give it one more go.

You said 'This fabricated story was created to involve Brewer when the actual evidence shows that he was most likely not involved.'

I asked 'What actual evidence is that?'

Perhaps you could clarify by saying what the fabricated story is, what the true story is, and what the evidence is relating to Brewer's involvement.

I answered this question. The evidence showing that Brewer was involved in the events of November 22, 1963, does NOT exist in the twenty-six volumes outside of Brewer's claims during his testimony.

If you don't know this then you do NOT know the evidence. See, I *already* answered your question.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 11, 2018, 07:42:23 PM
What did Brewer see that was "evading the cops"?

He stood there and "looked scared".

 :D

Looking scared would be enough.

You really need to stop trying to portray Brewer's actions as irrational and the resulting police response as unwarranted.

Doesn't matter if it was because he thought your hero looked funny, looked scared or just had a receding hairline.  :D

Bottom line is Brewer thought Saint Patsy was acting suspicously and took the necessary action to get your client apprehended.

Sucks for you and your hero, but you're just going to have to accept it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 11, 2018, 07:43:34 PM
Who said that?

I believe they kept the film running and only put the lights up just before the police got there. Brewer said they went up to the balcony looked around but couldn't see anything. They had looked downstairs but Brewer said it was dark and that they couldn't see how many people were in there. Then they went upstairs but couldn't see anything.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 11, 2018, 07:48:36 PM
I answered this question. The evidence showing that Brewer was involved in the events of November 22, 1963, does NOT exist in the twenty-six volumes outside of Brewer's claims during his testimony.

If you don't know this then you do NOT know the evidence. See, I *already* answered your question.

Why do you think I am asking you? If knew the evidence I wouldn't ask for it! Mine is a genuine question. The mind set displayed in your responses is very enlightening. I gave it one more go but that's it, you're off my Christmas card list.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 08:14:19 PM
Looking scared would be enough.

Enough for what?

Quote
You really need to stop trying to portray Brewer's actions as irrational and the resulting police response as unwarranted.

Why?  The resulting police response was unwarranted.

Quote
Doesn't matter if it was because he thought your hero looked funny, looked scared or just had a receding hairline.  :D

Bottom line is Brewer thought Saint Patsy was acting suspicously and took the necessary action to get your client apprehended.

Sucks for you and your hero, but you're just going to have to accept it.

More useless rhetoric instead of evidence.  How surprising.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 08:15:30 PM
I believe they kept the film running and only put the lights up just before the police got there. Brewer said they went up to the balcony looked around but couldn't see anything. They had looked downstairs but Brewer said it was dark and that they couldn't see how many people were in there. Then they went upstairs but couldn't see anything.

So it's just your conjecture that the reason they couldn't see anything was because it was too dark, but that they still thought he was up there?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 11, 2018, 08:36:48 PM
So it's just your conjecture that the reason they couldn't see anything was because it was too dark, but that they still thought he was up there?

Common sense, conjecture, opinion, call it what you like. Do you think they conducted a thorough search?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 11, 2018, 08:39:34 PM
Enough for what?

Why?  The resulting police response was unwarranted.

More useless rhetoric instead of evidence.  How surprising.

Enough for what ?  Saint Patsy looking scared would be enough to arouse Brewer's suspicions. That's what.

The police response was warranted. Your client's arrest is proof of that.  ;D

That's not useless rhetoric. That's a fact.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 08:46:36 PM
In which we learn that "mindreading" is a necessary skill to conclude that when the police are buzzing all around you with sirens blaring that they are looking for someone.  And on the very day the president has been assassinated only three miles away.  LOL.  You can't make that sort of thing up.  It is comedy gold.  And if there were any doubt, Postal confirms in her testimony that she and her boss mentioned that things were about to bust while observing the police activity.  It is embarrassing to see the lengths that dishonest John will go to protect Oswald. 

I still haven't got a straight answer as to why Brewer and Postal would take these actions if they did not find Oswald to be suspicious but were not acting out of any nefarious purpose.  How can their actions be explained?  Did they make a prank call to the police? It's impossible to fill that Grand Canyon-like narrative void in which Brewer and Postal have no cause to take notice of Oswald, but call the DPD to report him as acting suspiciously with no nefarious intent on their part.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 08:48:45 PM
The police response was warranted. Your client's arrest is proof of that.  ;D

Brilliant.  Whatever the police decide to do is by definition warranted.

No.  They had no probable cause to search Oswald or arrest him for murder.

Quote
That's not useless rhetoric. That's a fact.

Your tiresome "your hero" / "your client" / "Saint Patsy" shtick is the useless rhetoric.  Along with your belligerent attitude that doesn't actually demonstrate anything but what kind of person you are.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 11, 2018, 08:52:02 PM
So you CANNOT show that she called the DPD as claimed. You also CANNOT show why she would think a man that she NEVER saw was a suspect in the JFK murder miles away. Got it.

I thought so.

I'll try one last time.  If you are suggesting that Brewer and Postal had no cause to take notice of Oswald and lied about that in their testimony and affidavits, then why did Postal confirm that she called the DPD to report him as acting suspiciously?   Give us a narrative that explains their actions if they had no cause to take notice of him as you suggest.  Got it?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 08:57:43 PM
In which we learn that "mindreading" is a necessary skill to conclude that when the police are buzzing all around you with sirens blaring that they are looking for someone.

Actually what we learned is that "Richard" thinks he gets to define what other people "know".

What's embarrassing is the lengths that Lying "Richard" will go to justify police misconduct.

Quote
I still haven't got a straight answer as to why Brewer and Postal would take these actions if they did not find Oswald to be suspicious but were not acting out of any nefarious purpose.

Sigh.  Brewer did find the man in front of his store to be suspicious.  Nobody said he didn't.  And Postal is irrelevant because she didn't see anybody do anything.

Everything else that leads from this misrepresentation of yours is just another strawman.  You just can't control yourself, can you?

Brewer's interpretation of the man doesn't make the man a murder suspect though.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 09:12:27 PM
Why do you think I am asking you? If knew the evidence I wouldn't ask for it! Mine is a genuine question. The mind set displayed in your responses is very enlightening. I gave it one more go but that's it, you're off my Christmas card list.

If you genuinely cared then you would learn the evidence, but, alas, you want me to spoon feed you instead. I am not going to waste my time.

You can draw any conclusion that you wish, but it is clear that you are a LNer. LNers are not interested in the evidence because it fails to support the claims that they so wholeheartedly endorse.

I had the evidence up in my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series, but it was removed due to the LNers constant complaints. See, LNers are not interested in the actual evidence found in the twenty-six volumes and CD's.

If you are genuinely and sincerely interested then check out the twenty-six volumes. Good luck.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 11, 2018, 09:15:47 PM
Mindreading Lying "Richard" now turns his mad mindreading skilz on Julia Postal.

Utter nonsense.  If police cars are roaring down the road they are on their way to some other destination.  If they're "looking for someone" they stop and look for someone.


Pretty sure they eventually stopped and looked for the 'guy' an alert citizen perceived as acting strangely.

But lucky (temporality) for the 'guy' who was staring blankly at shoes in the alcove of the shoe store, conveniently away from the street, eh John.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 09:17:25 PM
In which we learn that "mindreading" is a necessary skill to conclude that when the police are buzzing all around you with sirens blaring that they are looking for someone.  And on the very day the president has been assassinated only three miles away.  LOL.  You can't make that sort of thing up.  It is comedy gold.  And if there were any doubt, Postal confirms in her testimony that she and her boss mentioned that things were about to bust while observing the police activity.  It is embarrassing to see the lengths that dishonest John will go to protect Oswald. 

I still haven't got a straight answer as to why Brewer and Postal would take these actions if they did not find Oswald to be suspicious but were not acting out of any nefarious purpose.  How can their actions be explained?  Did they make a prank call to the police? It's impossible to fill that Grand Canyon-like narrative void in which Brewer and Postal have no cause to take notice of Oswald, but call the DPD to report him as acting suspiciously with no nefarious intent on their part.

Join the club. I still have NOT received an answer as to who called the DPD with such great detail that the man who allegedly snuck into the TT became a suspect in the killing of JFK, but was arrested for the murder of JDT.

Talk about <head scratch> stuff.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 11, 2018, 09:26:14 PM
If you genuinely cared then you would learn the evidence, but, alas, you want me to spoon feed you instead. I am not going to waste my time.

I am interested but not obsessed.

Quote
You can draw any conclusion that you wish,

Thanks.

Quote
....but it is clear that you are a LNer.

I have explained that on balance I think LHO was a lone gunman and see no coherent evidence of a conspiracy, so not a very startling deduction. I could be wrong though.

Quote
LNers are not interested in the evidence....

I am.

Quote
because it fails to support the claims that they so wholeheartedly endorse.

See above.

Quote
I had the evidence up in my "Statements That Sink The WC's Conclusions" series, but it was removed due to the LNers constant complaints. See, LNers are not interested in the actual evidence found in the twenty-six volumes and CD's.

Before my time.

Quote
If you are genuinely and sincerely interested then check out the twenty-six volumes. Good luck.

If you say there is evidence for something then it is reasonable to ask for that evidence and to expect the evidence to be presented. To say, basically, find it yourself, suggests there is no specific evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 11, 2018, 09:30:03 PM
Brilliant.  Whatever the police decide to do is by definition warranted.

No.  They had no probable cause to search Oswald or arrest him for murder.

Your tiresome "your hero" / "your client" / "Saint Patsy" shtick is the useless rhetoric.  Along with your belligerent attitude that doesn't actually demonstrate anything but what kind of person you are.

No, whatever the police do is not by definition warranted. But in this case, the police response was warranted. Nice try though.

You know what kind of person I am ?  I'm the kind of person that enjoys exposing fools like you.

You keep insisting that Brewer had no reason to be suspicious of your client and I'll keep clowning you.

It's fun watching Saint Patsy's wannabe self-appointed defense attorney squirm.

Don't like the Saint Patsy moniker ?  Too bad.  :'(
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 09:38:13 PM
I'll try one last time.  If you are suggesting that Brewer and Postal had no cause to take notice of Oswald and lied about that in their testimony and affidavits, then why did Postal confirm that she called the DPD to report him as acting suspiciously?   Give us a narrative that explains their actions if they had no cause to take notice of him as you suggest.  Got it?

I'll try one last time. Let me use bullet points so perhaps you can comprehend the ridiculousness of the official claim.

1 - It is claimed that Brewer notices a man, presumably LHO, at his shoe store window who appears to act "funny" when police cars with sirens go by. He suspects him of something dastardly involving a firearm that he most likely would still have on his person.

2 - It is claimed that this "funny" acting man who is probably armed and dangerous in Brewer's mind leaves his store window and heads to the TT where he supposedly ducks in without paying.

3 - It is claimed that Brewer decides to follow this armed and dangerous man, at least in his mind, to the theater.

4 - It is known that the TT ticket person, Postal, was out on the street curb with her back to the theater. When Brewer asked about the guy ducking into the theater she said that she did NOT see him. She asks Brewer to into the TT to see if he can find him. He goes in and then came back out saying that he did NOT see him. He gave NO qualifiers like, "it was too dark to see". No, he just said that he wasn't in there.

5 - It is claimed that Postal called the DPD, but she never saw the man and had NO idea that JDT had been killed.

6 - Brewer, the man claimed to notice the suspicious man, presumably LHO, did NOT bother to call in what he allegedly saw. Why not?

7 - It is claimed that Postal gave a brief description of the man, but she never saw him so at best it would have come from Brewer if he really saw him. It does NOT fit LHO at all.

8 - Neither Brewer or Postal viewed the JDT murder so they would have NO idea what the suspect would look like.

9 - Three different sources in the TT said a person DIFFERENT from Brewer pointed out LHO to them, therefore, there is NO evidence that Brewer was even there.

What made the man that Brewer allegedly observed suspicious? What if he had gone into the shoe store instead of the TT, would he still have been suspicious?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 11, 2018, 09:46:02 PM
I am interested but not obsessed.

Thanks.

I have explained that on balance I think LHO was a lone gunman and see no coherent evidence of a conspiracy, so not a very startling deduction. I could be wrong though.

I am.

See above.

Before my time.

If you say there is evidence for something then it is reasonable to ask for that evidence and to expect the evidence to be presented. To say, basically, find it yourself, suggests there is no specific evidence.

It took you long enough to get to the LNer patented "point-by-point" rebuttal format. Of course you are a LNer.

The vast majority of the world knows that a conspiracy took the life of JFK. You haven't found evidence of a conspiracy because you clearly have NOT bothered to learn the evidence. It is easy to avoid the truth that way.

When the LNers start honoring your last point then I will too. Blame your fellow LNers for why it is NO longer on the board.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 11, 2018, 09:56:25 PM
It took you long enough to get to the LNer patented "point-by-point" rebuttal format.

:-)

Quote
Of course you are a LNer.

See my earlier post.

Quote
The vast majority of the world knows that a conspiracy took the life of JFK.

They don't know. No one knows.

Quote
You haven't found evidence of a conspiracy because you clearly have NOT bothered to learn the evidence. It is easy to avoid the truth that way.

I've some knowledge but not an expert. Never claimed to be. The evidence of a conspiracy is not convincing to me but if there is some then I'd be happy to see it. There are clearly errors in the WC report and attempts to cover up mistakes, for various reasons. Witness reports are at times confused and confusing, but perhaps this is not surprising. But clear evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK? Don't see it.

Quote
When the LNers start honoring your last point then I will too. Blame your fellow LNers for why it is NO longer on the board.

Ok.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 10:07:17 PM
But lucky (temporality) for the 'guy' who was staring blankly at shoes in the alcove of the shoe store, conveniently away from the street, eh John.

That's where one would have to go to look at the shoes.  Your point?  "Blankly".  LOL.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 10:13:08 PM
No, whatever the police do is not by definition warranted. But in this case, the police response was warranted. Nice try though.

Says you.  But you can't actually demonstrate probable cause here.  Nice try though.

Quote
You know what kind of person I am ?  I'm the kind of person that enjoys exposing fools like you.

You don't expose anything.  You're a one-trick pony who thinks that insults and sarcasm make your unsubstantiated conclusions true.

Quote
You keep insisting that Brewer had no reason to be suspicious of your client and I'll keep clowning you.

Except I never "insisted" that.  Are you joining "Richard's" Lying Society now?

Quote
It's fun watching Saint Patsy's wannabe self-appointed defense attorney squirm.

Dream on.  We're all watching Saint Howard, the wannabe prosecuting attorney, try to make every conversation about anything except the actual evidence.

Quote
Don't like the Saint Patsy moniker ?  Too bad.  :'(

Too bad that you're so delusional you think that your "monikers" mean something.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 10:19:10 PM
1 - It is claimed that Brewer notices a man, presumably LHO, at his shoe store window who appears to act "funny" when police cars with sirens go by.

As for "acting funny", even that is a stretch.

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in your lobby there?
Mr. BREWER - No; he just stood there and stared.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 10:23:21 PM
I've some knowledge but not an expert. Never claimed to be. The evidence of a conspiracy is not convincing to me but if there is some then I'd be happy to see it. There are clearly errors in the WC report and attempts to cover up mistakes, for various reasons. Witness reports are at times confused and confusing, but perhaps this is not surprising. But clear evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK? Don't see it.

Nicholas, I'd be curious to know what clear evidence convinces you that Oswald killed JFK.  The LNers on this board either avoid that question like the plague or they rattle off a list of things that are not actually evidence (like "Oswald didn't seem interested in finding out what happened") or unsubstantiated or misrepresented conclusions about the evidence (like "Oswald owned the murder weapon").
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Logan on September 11, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
A Law Enforcement Officer is shot dead in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas.

An ARMED suspect flees

Law Enforcement was DISPATCHED to the Texas Theater, in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, prompted by a call that the ARMED SUSPECT was in the theater.

They were met at the backdoor by Brewer who then identified the ARMED SUSPECT
(Brewer) "And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him out.
And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I pointed him out"

Postal never used the word ARMED
Brewer never used the word ARMED
HOWEVER THE SUSPECT THAT SHOT TIPPIT WAS REPORTED AS ARMED
Do the math.

The Oswald Defense Team claims that the Law Enforcement Officers dispatched to the theater had no probable cause to detain and question said SUSPECT identified by Brewer

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you see?
Mr. BREWER - Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering. I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.
Mr. BELIN - You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.
Mr. BELIN - Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Did you say this man was the same man?
Mr. BREWER - The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to the show.
Mr. BELIN - Who hit who first?
Mr. BREWER - Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr. BELIN - Who knocked who?
Mr. BREWER - He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.
Mr. BELIN - When you say he was----
Mr. BREWER - McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and----in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.
Mr. BELIN - Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr. BREWER - No.
Mr. BELIN - You saw the gun up in the air?
Mr. BREWER - And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."
And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting, and I heard some of the police holier, I don't know who it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.
Mr. BELIN - Was he fighting back at that time?
Mr. BREWER - Yes; he was fighting back.
Mr. BELIN - Then what happened?
Mr. BREWER - Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and they took him out.

Another witness George Applin
Mr. APPLIN - He started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up, please?" And he stood up.
Mr. BALL - How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard the officer say, "Stand up"?
Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was about--it was not over four seats down from the back, rear.
Mr. BALL - Were you at the rear?
Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show.

Here's another point where the Oswald Defense Team "thinks" they know the protocol when searching an ARMED SUSPECT


Mr. BALL - Did he stand up?
Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; he did.
Mr. BALL - Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?
Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; along about
Mr. BALL - Where?
Mr. APPLIN - I guess about his hips.
Mr. BALL - Then what did Oswald do?
Mr. APPLIN - He took a right-hand swing at him.
Mr. BALL - What did the officer do?
Mr. APPLIN - The officer grabbed him then.
Mr. BALL - Had you seen the pistol up to that time?
Mr. APPLIN - No, sir; there was not one in view then.
Mr. BALL - How soon after that did you see the pistol?
Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was about--I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.
Mr. BALL - Who pulled the pistol?
Mr. APPLIN - I guess it was Oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.
Mr. BALL - What did the officer do?
Mr. APPLIN - Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and----
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. APPLIN - Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun and the officer saying, "Here he is."

THE OSWALD DEFENSE TEAM CLAIMS THAT IT WAS A VIOLATION OF OSWALD'S CIVIL RIGHTS TO SEARCH OSWALD (THE ARMED SUSPECT)


A. Protect oneself from ARMED SUSPECT
B. Protect patrons in the proximity from ARMED SUSPECT
C. Verify that the SUSPECT that was identified by the witness (Brewer) is either ARMED or not by searching the SUSPECT.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 11, 2018, 11:13:43 PM
Nicholas, I'd be curious to know what clear evidence convinces you that Oswald killed JFK.  The LNers on this board either avoid that question like the plague or they rattle off a list of things that are not actually evidence (like "Oswald didn't seem interested in finding out what happened") or unsubstantiated or misrepresented conclusions about the evidence (like "Oswald owned the murder weapon").

I don't claim certainty but on balance think that LHO fire the shots which killed JFK. My view is ......The evidence put together by the Warren Commission, though flawed in places, indicates that three shots were fired from the Sixth floor of the TSBD. The ballistics evidence I have seen supports this and does not support shots from other locations. The behaviour of LHO before and after the assassination indicates he,was involved in some way. There is no evidence that clearly links LHO to any conspiracy and I fail to see how a conspiracy could have manipulated the events and forged all the evidence, such as the Zapruder film, the autopsy photographs, the back yard photographs, the links to the rifle and so on as seems to be claimed by many CTists. For LHO to be a knowing part of a conspiracy makes little sense to me due to his profile and personality. For him to have been an unknowing patsy makes more sense but I don't see how this could have been achieved.

I guess overall I have a tendency to see events to be more the product of individuals, mistakes, miscalculations and accidents than controlled by powerful organisations, and in the absence of strong evidence for a successful conspiracy I tend to favour the former rather than the latter.

I am sure you will be able to go through and point out where all this is wrong but on balance I think LHO as an angry, frustrated young man who saw a moment to finally be someone and took it is the most likely explanation for the tragic events in Dealey Plazza.

I would like to hear strong evidence of a conspiracy if there is any, and a clear picture of what that conspiracy actually involved, rather than speculation and general thoughts about mistrusting the powers that be though.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 11, 2018, 11:19:12 PM
I don't claim certainty but on balance think that LHO fire the shots which killed JFK. My view is ......The evidence put together by the Warren Commission, though flawed in places, indicates that three shots were fired from the Sixth floor of the TSBD. The ballistics evidence I have seen supports this and does not support shots from other locations. The behaviour of LHO before and after the assassination indicates he,was involved in some way. There is no evidence that clearly links LHO to any conspiracy and I fail to see how a conspiracy could have manipulated the events and forged all the evidence, such as the Zapruder film, the autopsy photographs, the back yard photographs, the links to the rifle and so on as seems to be claimed by many CTists. For LHO to be a knowing part of a conspiracy makes little sense to me due to his profile and personality. For him to have been an unknowing patsy makes more sense but I don't see how this could have been achieved.

I guess overall I have a tendency to see events to be more the product of individuals, mistakes, miscalculations and accidents than controlled by powerful organisations, and in the absence of strong evidence for a successful conspiracy I tend to favour the former rather than the latter.

I am sure you will be able to go through and point out where all this is wrong but on balance I think LHO as an angry, frustrated young man who saw a moment to finally be someone and took it is the most likely explanation for the tragic events in Dealey Plazza.

I would like to hear strong evidence of a conspiracy if there is any, and a clear picture of what that conspiracy actually involved, rather than speculation and general thoughts about mistrusting the powers that be though.
Good post. Well argued.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 11:25:22 PM
Law Enforcement was DISPATCHED to the Texas Theater, in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, prompted by a call that the ARMED SUSPECT was in the theater.

Hold the phone here.  Somebody called the police and said there was an armed suspect in the theater?  Who?

Quote
Postal never used the word ARMED
Brewer never used the word ARMED

Of course they didn't.  Neither one of them saw a weapon of any kind.

Quote
HOWEVER THE SUSPECT THAT SHOT TIPPIT WAS REPORTED AS ARMED
Do the math.

The math says that there was no connection between the suspect that shot Tippit and the guy Brennan saw in front of his store.

Quote
The Oswald Defense Team claims that the Law Enforcement Officers dispatched to the theater had no probable cause to detain and question said SUSPECT identified by Brewer

They didn't need to have probable cause to question him.  They did need to have probable cause to search him and to arrest him for murder.  Too bad they didn't just question him.

The standards for probable cause are quite clear, even if cops don't want to follow them.  There has to be information sufficient to warrant a prudent person's belief that the wanted individual has committed a crime.  There was none.  Brewer witnessed no crime.  Brewer didn't even see a weapon.  Brewer (via Postal) described a person who didn't even match the description that went out over the police radio.

A hunch is not enough.  "Women's intuition" is not enough.  The search and the arrest for murder were definitely illegal.  You might claim that the ends justify the means because "they got their man", but that's just the usual circular argument.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 11:36:29 PM
I don't claim certainty but on balance think that LHO fire the shots which killed JFK. My view is ......The evidence put together by the Warren Commission, though flawed in places, indicates that three shots were fired from the Sixth floor of the TSBD.

Arguable, but ok so far.

Quote
The ballistics evidence I have seen supports this and does not support shots from other locations.

Depending on what wound locations you want to go with and what assumptions you make about them, but ok so far.

Quote
The behaviour of LHO before and after the assassination indicates he,was involved in some way.

Here's where you go off the rails.  What behavior, and how does it unambiguously indicate that he was involved ?

Quote
There is no evidence that clearly links LHO to any conspiracy and I fail to see how a conspiracy could have manipulated the events and forged all the evidence, such as the Zapruder film, the autopsy photographs, the back yard photographs, the links to the rifle and so on as seems to be claimed by many CTists.

So what you're doing here is that you're just pre-assuming that LHO was involved as a given, and just turning your attention solely to whether anyone else was involved rather than actually examining the evidence for Oswald being involved.

Quote
I am sure you will be able to go through and point out where all this is wrong but on balance I think LHO as an angry, frustrated young man who saw a moment to finally be someone and took it is the most likely explanation for the tragic events in Dealey Plazza.

Lots of people speculate on lots of possible narratives, but I'm only interested in what actually can be demonstrated with evidence.

Quote
I would like to hear strong evidence of a conspiracy if there is any, and a clear picture of what that conspiracy actually involved, rather than speculation and general thoughts about mistrusting the powers that be though.

Sure.  Just as I would like to hear strong evidence that LHO did it, if there is any, rather than speculation and assumptions based on a little bit of questionable evidence.  I don't believe in a pre-assassination conspiracy either -- for the same reasons.  That doesn't tell you anything about whether Oswald did it or not.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 11, 2018, 11:46:20 PM
All these words, but NO supporting evidence. No surprise there. Your main problem is -- she NEVER saw the man claimed to be LHO, therefore, she had NO way of knowing how he was acting.

Tell me why she thought a man that she never saw was a suspect in the killing of JFK when DP was miles away. Go ahead.

I think she said that she saw Oswald, it's just that she didn't see actually see him go through the door.

Mrs. POSTAL. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on Thursday and want to do anything, he----and about this time I heard the sirens----police was racing back and forth.
Mr. BALL. On Jefferson?
Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, "Some thing is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about----some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.
Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh.
Mr. BALL. A police car had gone by just before this?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west.
Mr. BALL. Its siren on?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast.
Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that you were----
Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and----I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.
Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.
Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner----
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. Who is your boss?
Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan.
Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other----into the outer part of it.
Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.
Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your boss passed him, did he?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; they went----one came one way, and one went the other way just at the same time.
Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after became around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually----because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought .the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.
Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in?


(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338516/m1/1/)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 11, 2018, 11:57:00 PM
I think she said that she saw Oswald, it's just that she didn't see actually see him go through the door.

Yes, she said that in her testimony, but that is in conflict with her other statements and with Brewer's account.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after became around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually----because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought .the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.

. . .

Mr. BELIN - Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket?
Mr. BREWER - I knew that he hadn't.
Mr. BELIN - Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't?
Mr. BREWER - I don't know.
Mr. BELIN - You just asked her?
Mr. BREWER - Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go in.
Mr. BELIN - She---did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you remember?
Mr. BREWER - She said she couldn't remember a man of that description going in.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 12, 2018, 02:55:10 AM
:-)

See my earlier post.

They don't know. No one knows.

I've some knowledge but not an expert. Never claimed to be. The evidence of a conspiracy is not convincing to me but if there is some then I'd be happy to see it. There are clearly errors in the WC report and attempts to cover up mistakes, for various reasons. Witness reports are at times confused and confusing, but perhaps this is not surprising. But clear evidence of a conspiracy to assassinate JFK? Don't see it.

Ok.

If you don't know the evidence, and you seem not to, of course you don't see any evidence of a conspiracy. The best evidence of a conspiracy is found in the twenty-six volumes and CD's.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 12, 2018, 02:57:54 AM
As for "acting funny", even that is a stretch.

Mr. BELIN - Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in your lobby there?
Mr. BREWER - No; he just stood there and stared.

I guess only cop killers stare. LOL.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 12, 2018, 03:07:04 AM
I think she said that she saw Oswald, it's just that she didn't see actually see him go through the door.

Mrs. POSTAL. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on Thursday and want to do anything, he----and about this time I heard the sirens----police was racing back and forth.
Mr. BALL. On Jefferson?
Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, "Some thing is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about----some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.
Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh.
Mr. BALL. A police car had gone by just before this?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west.
Mr. BALL. Its siren on?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast.
Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that you were----
Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and----I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.
Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.
Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.
Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner----
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. BALL. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. Who is your boss?
Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan.
Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other----into the outer part of it.
Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.
Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your boss passed him, did he?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; they went----one came one way, and one went the other way just at the same time.
Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after became around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually----because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought .the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.
Mr. BALL. And he had ducked in?


(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338516/m1/1/)

You use the same site as your twin. Interesting. Explain why she wasn't sure if she sold him a ticket then if she saw him duck into the theater.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 12, 2018, 03:10:28 AM
The important thing is Brewer saw Saint Patsy and thought he was acting suspicously.

His wannabe attorney's insinuations and lamentations that Brewer didn't have a valid reason for being suspicous of Saint Patsy is an absolute absurdity.

Which is why the wannabe's pathetic argument is now morphing into 'they didn't have probable cause to search him'.

The 'didn't have reason to be suspicious of Saint Patsy' objection would be laughed out of court, much less a JFK assassination forum.

Oswald needs a better representative.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 12, 2018, 03:30:08 AM
That's where one would have to go to look at the shoes.  Your point?  "Blankly".  LOL.

What, no front windows? My point is the 'guy' was lucky he was out of sight, eh?


Brewer says the 'guy' was standing by the tennis shoes. So he was buying Junie tennis shoes, huh?.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 12, 2018, 04:46:53 AM
I guess only cop killers stare. LOL.

Sample of Oswald with messed up hair, and what could reasonably be described as staring.

(https://s33.postimg.cc/byyeklnz3/messed_hair_stared.png)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 12, 2018, 05:18:49 AM
You use the same site as your twin. Interesting. Explain why she wasn't sure if she sold him a ticket then if she saw him duck into the theater.
She didn't say she saw him enter the theater. She said she saw him come around the corner into the space where the ticket booth was, but didn't see him go through the door.

Visual aid:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7431907,-96.826047,3a,60y,6.69h,85.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9PyQ5zmWgGMSxT5qxBRATQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 12, 2018, 05:24:08 AM
Yes, she said that in her testimony, but that is in conflict with her other statements and with Brewer's account.

Mr. BALL. What did you see him do after became around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually----because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought .the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.

. . .

Mr. BELIN - Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket?
Mr. BREWER - I knew that he hadn't.
Mr. BELIN - Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't?
Mr. BREWER - I don't know.
Mr. BELIN - You just asked her?
Mr. BREWER - Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go in.
Mr. BELIN - She---did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you remember?
Mr. BREWER - She said she couldn't remember a man of that description going in.

"She said she couldn't remember a man of that description going in." She said she saw Oswald when he cleared the corner of the alcove/vestibule that the ticket booth sits in, but she didn't see him go through the door, both in her WC testimony and, a bit more clumsily, in her affidavit.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 12, 2018, 09:09:17 AM
Good post. Well argued.

Thank you. As I have mentioned, I have returned to this subject having been interested in it some years back, but am not an expert. I came here to see what the current state of evidence was and didn't really plan on posting much. Watching though, I feel it is easy to become too heavily involved in analysing the fine detail and to not take a step back and see the big picture. There also seems to be a tendency to try to disprove everything in the WC Report and to almost believe that if  its in there it must be wrong. I decided to post to ask a few questions, to learn more and to perhaps be a different, non expert voice.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 12, 2018, 09:18:39 AM
Arguable, but ok so far.

Depending on what wound locations you want to go with and what assumptions you make about them, but ok so far.

Here's where you go off the rails.  What behavior, and how does it unambiguously indicate that he was involved ?

So what you're doing here is that you're just pre-assuming that LHO was involved as a given, and just turning your attention solely to whether anyone else was involved rather than actually examining the evidence for Oswald being involved.

Lots of people speculate on lots of possible narratives, but I'm only interested in what actually can be demonstrated with evidence.

Sure.  Just as I would like to hear strong evidence that LHO did it, if there is any, rather than speculation and assumptions based on a little bit of questionable evidence.  I don't believe in a pre-assassination conspiracy either -- for the same reasons.  That doesn't tell you anything about whether Oswald did it or not.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to a non expert :-)

I think I start with LHO being a suspect, which he surely is, and try to see if the evidence fits. I think it does mostly but accept it is not certain or unambiguous. I struggle to see how it could all be wrong, fake or misunderstood. I tend to take all human testimony with a pinch of salt, considering it to be unreliable in many cases unless supported by other evidence, or supported by other independent human testimony. I generally don't do certainty :-). Many of my questions are totally genuine, though occasionally they are designed to reveal people's thought processes, and I appreciate it when people respond with that thought in mind.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 12, 2018, 09:22:35 AM
If you don't know the evidence, and you seem not to, of course you don't see any evidence of a conspiracy. The best evidence of a conspiracy is found in the twenty-six volumes and CD's.

Okay, so you don't want to waste your time responding to a self confessed non expert. That's fine, I'll just return to my previous position of not responding to any of your posts, as there is no oint and I have other things to do and others to talk to. I have no intention of reading the 26 volumes at present - maybe one day when I've retired. We both know where we stand now so lets leave it and move on.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 12, 2018, 10:14:22 AM
Okay, so you don't want to waste your time responding to a self confessed non expert. That's fine, I'll just return to my previous position of not responding to any of your posts, as there is no oint and I have other things to do and others to talk to. I have no intention of reading the 26 volumes at present - maybe one day when I've retired. We both know where we stand now so lets leave it and move on.

Do stick around Nicholas. Your civility is very welcome.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 12, 2018, 01:59:41 PM
Okay, so you don't want to waste your time responding to a self confessed non expert. That's fine, I'll just return to my previous position of not responding to any of your posts, as there is no oint and I have other things to do and others to talk to. I have no intention of reading the 26 volumes at present - maybe one day when I've retired. We both know where we stand now so lets leave it and move on.
There are two basic types of conspiracy advocates: the reasonable and thoughtful and the unreasonable and thoughtless. It's best to ignore and avoid the latter because they can see evidence for a conspiracy in the shape of the mayonnaise in their ham sandwiches.

If you can't see it too then, well, you're not an expert like they are.

And it is funny reading these conspiracy "experts" - self-appointed of course - criticize non-experts - again, by their standard - and yet dismiss the real experts - photographic, forensic, ballistics - who say the evidence points to Oswald as the assassin.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 04:54:07 PM
The important thing is Brewer saw Saint Patsy and thought he was acting suspicously.

Why is that important?

Quote
His wannabe attorney's insinuations and lamentations that Brewer didn't have a valid reason for being suspicous of Saint Patsy is an absolute absurdity.

Cool rebuttal bro.  Wannabe intellectual declares an opposing view "absurd" and thinks his job is done.   :D

The only thing that is absurd is what you think passes for a rational argument.

Quote
Which is why the wannabe's pathetic argument is now morphing into 'they didn't have probable cause to search him'.

You are so utterly clueless.  That's not a "morph" or even a new argument.  It's just a fact.

Quote
The 'didn't have reason to be suspicious of Saint Patsy' objection would be laughed out of court, much less a JFK assassination forum.

You're very adept at useless sarcasm.  Actually providing a reason for Brewer to be suspicious of a guy standing there staring at shoes...not so much.  Brewer himself didn't even provide a reason, yet you're so full of yourself you think it just goes without saying, and <insert juvenile cowardly sarcastic insult here for good measure>.  That's all you're capable of.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 04:58:59 PM
What, no front windows? My point is the 'guy' was lucky he was out of sight, eh?

The "alcove", as you put it, was windows.  What are you talking about?

Quote
Brewer says the 'guy' was standing by the tennis shoes. So he was buying Junie tennis shoes, huh?.

No idea.  Is this supposed to be unlikely?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 04:59:50 PM
Sample of Oswald with messed up hair, and what could reasonably be described as staring.

No, this is a sample of what Oswald looked like after the police beat the sh!t out of him.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 05:00:57 PM
She didn't say she saw him enter the theater. She said she saw him come around the corner into the space where the ticket booth was, but didn't see him go through the door.

Then why did she say "what man?" when Brewer asked her about him?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 05:02:07 PM
Watching though, I feel it is easy to become too heavily involved in analysing the fine detail and to not take a step back and see the big picture.

The fine detail is where the big picture falls apart.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 05:12:03 PM
Thanks for taking the time to respond to a non expert :-)

Thanks for being willing to have a discussion rather than just slinging belligerent insults like the trolls do.

Quote
I think I start with LHO being a suspect, which he surely is, and try to see if the evidence fits. I think it does mostly but accept it is not certain or unambiguous. I struggle to see how it could all be wrong, fake or misunderstood.

Before trying to characterize "it all", the first step is to understand exactly what the evidence is and how (or even if) it supports a conclusion that Oswald shot JFK.  If it does not, then it can be discarded on that basis alone.

Quote
I tend to take all human testimony with a pinch of salt, considering it to be unreliable in many cases

As you should.  Human memory is terribly unreliable and malleable.

Quote
unless supported by other evidence, or supported by other independent human testimony.

The key to that is understanding what is "independent" and what is not.  And pretty much all witness testimony in this case is contradictory anyway.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
There are two basic types of conspiracy advocates: the reasonable and thoughtful and the unreasonable and thoughtless. It's best to ignore and avoid the latter because they can see evidence for a conspiracy in the shape of the mayonnaise in their ham sandwiches.

There are two types of "Oswald did it" advocates.  those who discuss the actual evidence, acknowledge the weaknesses in their arguments, and civilly discuss differences of opinion, and those who mock and insult the other side, avoid discussing the evidence at all costs, and spend all their time mocking and insulting.

Quote
And it is funny reading these conspiracy "experts" - self-appointed of course - criticize non-experts - again, by their standard - and yet dismiss the real experts - photographic, forensic, ballistics - who say the evidence points to Oswald as the assassin.

What's funny is people who think that a false appeal to authority is a valid argument.  If "expert" can't scientifically support his or her conclusion with the evidence he or she is examining, or if their experiments are not falsifiable or repeatable then their credentials do not make a whit of difference.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 12, 2018, 06:34:58 PM
Why is that important?

Cool rebuttal bro.  Wannabe intellectual declares an opposing view "absurd" and thinks his job is done.   :D

The only thing that is absurd is what you think passes for a rational argument.

You are so utterly clueless.  That's not a "morph" or even a new argument.  It's just a fact.

You're very adept at useless sarcasm.  Actually providing a reason for Brewer to be suspicious of a guy standing there staring at shoes...not so much.  Brewer himself didn't even provide a reason, yet you're so full of yourself you think it just goes without saying, and <insert juvenile cowardly sarcastic insult here for good measure>.  That's all you're capable of.

You really don't understand why it's important that Brewer found Saint Patsy suspicious ?

Let me expain it to you.

The FACT that Brewer thought your client was acting suspiciously resulted in Saint Patsy being apprehended.

It doesn't matter that a wannabe blowhard attorney doesn't think his client was acting suspiciously.

It's incredible that you think your opinion of whether Saint Patsy was acting suspiciously outweighs Brewer's.

You can bitch and moan forever that 'looking funny' or 'staring at shoes' was insufficient reason for Brewer to have any suspicions about your hero, but you weren't there and Brewer was.

Brewer's opinion and actions matter, all your bloviating, whining and grandstanding doesn't.

Brewer hero. Iacoletti zero.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 12, 2018, 07:37:04 PM
You really don't understand why it's important that Brewer found Saint Patsy suspicious ?

Let me expain it to you.

The FACT that Brewer thought your client was acting suspiciously resulted in Saint Patsy being apprehended.

It doesn't matter that a wannabe blowhard attorney doesn't think his client was acting suspiciously.

It's incredible that you think your opinion of whether Saint Patsy was acting suspiciously outweighs Brewer's.

You can bitch and moan forever that 'looking funny' or 'staring at shoes' was insufficient reason for Brewer to have any suspicions about your hero, but you weren't there and Brewer was.

Brewer's opinion and actions matter, all your bloviating, whining and grandstanding doesn't.

Brewer hero. Iacoletti zero.
This is another example of the effort to make evidence against Oswald disappear. That is: demand that the information be explained to an absurd degree - What did Brewer mean by "suspicious"? How did Oswald look "scared"? - and then when the replies don't satisfy the questioner (none will) simply say the information is worthless.

We've seen this time after time. The rifle purchase, the backyard photos, the Hiddell ID....whatever. The evidence is made to vanish. He's not saying it was manufactured or faked; no, he's saying it never existed in the first place.

Then they turn around and say they really want to discuss the evidence in this event. They truly do. Sure, to perform their rhetorical magic tricks to make it disappear.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 12, 2018, 07:48:20 PM
No, this is a sample of what Oswald looked like after the police beat the sh!t out of him.

And a sample of what Oswald looks like with messed up hair and a stare

Did police beat the crap out of Oswald? Seems to me it was more of a wrestling match to remove the pistol from his possession. Well, at least after a retaliatory punch administered by McDonald after a first strike by your boy. Oswald's 'a policeman hit me' answer to a reporter's question about the mark on his face, doesn't seem to be a complaint about any sh*t-kicking.

(https://s33.postimg.cc/byyeklnz3/messed_hair_stared.png)

Newbies, just imagine Oswald in that window

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 12, 2018, 08:10:47 PM
This is another example of the effort to make evidence against Oswald disappear. That is: demand that the information be explained to an absurd degree - What did Brewer mean by "suspicious"? How did Oswald look "scared"? - and then when the replies don't satisfy the questioner (none will) simply say the information is worthless.

We've seen this time after time. The rifle purchase, the backyard photos, the Hiddell ID....whatever. The evidence is made to vanish. He's not saying it was manufactured or faked; no, he's saying it never existed in the first place.

Then they turn around and say they really want to discuss the evidence in this event. They truly do. Sure, to perform their rhetorical magic tricks to make it disappear.

This is another example of the effort to make evidence against Oswald disappear. That is: demand that the information be explained to an absurd degree - What did Brewer mean by "suspicious"? How did Oswald look "scared"?



Can you please show me where in the evidence it says that Oswald looked scared?

And perhaps you can also explain how the opinion of a witness, or an interpretation of an observation can be considered evidence of anything? 

Btw, speaking for myself, I don't want evidence to disappear. I want it to be presented in a convincing manner which includes getting answers to questions about the evidence that is presented. Why is that a problem?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 12, 2018, 08:18:04 PM
There are two types of "Oswald did it" advocates.  those who discuss the actual evidence, acknowledge the weaknesses in their arguments, and civilly discuss differences of opinion, and those who mock and insult the other side, avoid discussing the evidence at all costs, and spend all their time mocking and insulting.

What's funny is people who think that a false appeal to authority is a valid argument.  If "expert" can't scientifically support his or her conclusion with the evidence he or she is examining, or if their experiments are not falsifiable or repeatable then their credentials do not make a whit of difference.

"those who mock and insult the other side'

Like you with Inattentional Blindness

You fcn hypocrite
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Martin Weidmann on September 12, 2018, 08:43:47 PM
And a sample of what Oswald looks like with messed up hair and a stare

Did police beat the crap out of Oswald? Seems to me it was more of a wrestling match to remove the pistol from his possession. Well, at least after a retaliatory punch administered by McDonald after a first strike by your boy. Oswald's 'a policeman hit me' answer to a reporter's question about the mark on his face, doesn't seem to be a complaint about any sh*t-kicking.

(https://s33.postimg.cc/byyeklnz3/messed_hair_stared.png)

Newbies, just imagine Oswald in that window



Newbies, just imagine Oswald in that window

So now you want them to imagine evidence?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 08:44:15 PM
You really don't understand why it's important that Brewer found Saint Patsy suspicious ?

Let me expain it to you.

The FACT that Brewer thought your client was acting suspiciously resulted in Saint Patsy being apprehended.

It doesn't matter that a wannabe blowhard attorney doesn't think his client was acting suspiciously.

It's incredible that you think your opinion of whether Saint Patsy was acting suspiciously outweighs Brewer's.

You can bitch and moan forever that 'looking funny' or 'staring at shoes' was insufficient reason for Brewer to have any suspicions about your hero, but you weren't there and Brewer was.

Brewer's opinion and actions matter, all your bloviating, whining and grandstanding doesn't.

Brewer hero. Iacoletti zero.

Why is a shoe salesman's opinion of suspicious behavior that he can't even describe any better than anyone else's, including a cowardly anonymous Internet troll's?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 08:46:54 PM
This is another example of the effort to make evidence against Oswald disappear. That is: demand that the information be explained to an absurd degree - What did Brewer mean by "suspicious"? How did Oswald look "scared"? - and then when the replies don't satisfy the questioner (none will) simply say the information is worthless.

What exactly do you think "looking scared" is evidence of?

Quote
We've seen this time after time. The rifle purchase, the backyard photos, the Hiddell ID....whatever. The evidence is made to vanish. He's not saying it was manufactured or faked; no, he's saying it never existed in the first place.

Who's "he"?  Nobody is claiming that these things don't exist.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 12, 2018, 09:02:17 PM
Did someone say that Brewer's personal observations were evidence of murder?  It seems only CTers are the ones suggesting that.

About 3 years ago, a guy came into a coffee shop and sat about 15 feet away from me. He had a backpack. He had an unfriendly, even angry, look on his face. Sure enough, a few minutes later he looked around while loudly blurting out something in a language I didn't recognize. He then pulled out a laptop and started using it. He continued to look around with what I perceived as an angry countenance. I thought to myself what if this guy has a weapon in that backpack? I decided fck this guy; if he pulls out a weapon I'm going to hit him with a chair. I calculated the time it would take to grab a chair from my table and nail the guy, hoping his attention would not be fixed on me. But the guy left after a few more minutes.

My observation doesn't prove the guy had a weapon or that he was otherwise dangerous. It only proves that some people are more alert & observant especially in times of random bombings... or in Brewer's case, nearby manhunts.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 09:03:45 PM
And a sample of what Oswald looks like with messed up hair and a stare

 :D Like that has any relevance to what he looked like outside Brewer's store (if it was even Oswald).

Quote
Did police beat the crap out of Oswald? Seems to me it was more of a wrestling match to remove the pistol from his possession.

Seems to me you don't have even a cursory knowledge of the evidence.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any officers strike him?
Mr. APPLIN - I seen one strike him with a shotgun.
Mr. BALL - How did he do it?
Mr. APPLIN - He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and swung and hit him in the back.
Mr. BALL - With what?
Mr. APPLIN - With the butt end of the gun.
Mr. BALL - Looked like a hard blow?
Mr. APPLIN - Yes, sir; it--I guess-it was. You could--yes, sir.

Quote
Well, at least after a retaliatory punch administered by McDonald after a first strike by your boy.

That was the story.  Sure, and McDonald must have had clear blood coming out of his "bloody nose".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 12, 2018, 09:04:13 PM
What exactly do you think "looking scared" is evidence of?

That the observer thought he looked scared.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 09:06:10 PM
"those who mock and insult the other side'

Like you with Inattentional Blindness

You fcn hypocrite

Pointing out that a gorilla playing basketball is not relevant to whether a bag was or was not in a crime scene is not mocking and insulting.  Sorry, you're going to have to find some different rhetoric.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 09:10:26 PM

Newbies, just imagine Oswald in that window

So now you want them to imagine evidence?

Of course he does.  That's the only evidence they have.

- imagine Oswald had a rifle in a bag
- imagine that Brennan really saw Oswald aiming a rifle and from the belt up
- imagine that a ring in a cup means premediated murder
- imagine that Oswald picked up a rifle at the post office
- imagine that the rifle in the photo is C2766
- imagine that Oswald used Hidell as an alias

etc, etc, etc
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 09:12:58 PM
Did someone say that Brewer's personal observations were evidence of murder?  It seems only CTers are the ones suggesting that.

What other information did the police have when they declared him to be a suspect for murder?

Quote
About 3 years ago, a guy came into a coffee shop and sat about 15 feet away from me. He had a backpack. He had an unfriendly, even angry, look on his face. Sure enough, a few minutes later he looked around while loudly blurting out something in a language I didn't recognize.

Did the police then storm in and arrest him for murder?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 12, 2018, 09:14:13 PM
That the observer thought he looked scared.

If that ain't evidence that somebody just killed a cop I don't know what is!
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 12, 2018, 10:05:31 PM
The fine detail is where the big picture falls apart.

One example I was thinking of when I wrote this was this discussion of why Brewer thought LHO looked suspicious. The analysis of every word (such as sdared & staring) seems to kiss the overall nist of what Brewer was trying, but struggling, to say. I'm sure you've seen someone and thiught there was something odd about them and the situation without really being able to say why ir what it was about that person. It makes sense to me that Brewer 'felt' something was wrongtong about how LHO was acting in the circumstances but wasn't sure what. He watched him go to the Theatre and duck in so followed to investigate, not knowing anything but just sensing something was giing on. If he knew LHO was armed he might nit have followed but he didn't know anything so did, talked to Postal, did a bit of a search then decided to call the police. Trying to analyse every word in his testimony looking for meaning seams to me to be in danger of missing the overall picture.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 12, 2018, 10:48:20 PM
She didn't say she saw him enter the theater. She said she saw him come around the corner into the space where the ticket booth was, but didn't see him go through the door.

Visual aid:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7431907,-96.826047,3a,60y,6.69h,85.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9PyQ5zmWgGMSxT5qxBRATQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

She was inconsistent as she didn't say that in her affidavit. If you want to use Postal then you have to tie her suspicions to the killing of JFK as she had no idea that JDT had been killed.

Why would she think a killer of JFK in DP would be four miles away in Oak Cliff? Furthermore, why would the said killer be going into a movie theater instead of heading out of town?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 12, 2018, 10:56:58 PM
Okay, so you don't want to waste your time responding to a self confessed non expert. That's fine, I'll just return to my previous position of not responding to any of your posts, as there is no oint and I have other things to do and others to talk to. I have no intention of reading the 26 volumes at present - maybe one day when I've retired. We both know where we stand now so lets leave it and move on.

Why do all LNers misrepresent what other people say? Quote me saying that I only respond to "experts". If that were the case then I would never respond to LNers.

I said since you show no interest in learning the evidence (which is a prerequisite to understanding what really happened) then it is a waste of time to respond to you as you prefer biased opinion, speculation and made up scenarios instead.

How can anyone understand what happened if they don't know the evidence? You can't, but it is easier to blame the other person instead.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 12, 2018, 11:01:52 PM
There are two basic types of conspiracy advocates: the reasonable and thoughtful and the unreasonable and thoughtless. It's best to ignore and avoid the latter because they can see evidence for a conspiracy in the shape of the mayonnaise in their ham sandwiches.

If you can't see it too then, well, you're not an expert like they are.

And it is funny reading these conspiracy "experts" - self-appointed of course - criticize non-experts - again, by their standard - and yet dismiss the real experts - photographic, forensic, ballistics - who say the evidence points to Oswald as the assassin.

You guys are hilarious. Asking someone to learn the evidence is akin to "criticizing them." 😂

The truth is they know that the evidence does NOT support the WC's claims that is why they really ignore it. If the evidence actually supported the WC's claims then they wouldn't call for the removal of it as they did with my series.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 12, 2018, 11:11:13 PM
This is another example of the effort to make evidence against Oswald disappear. That is: demand that the information be explained to an absurd degree - What did Brewer mean by "suspicious"? How did Oswald look "scared"? - and then when the replies don't satisfy the questioner (none will) simply say the information is worthless.

We've seen this time after time. The rifle purchase, the backyard photos, the Hiddell ID....whatever. The evidence is made to vanish. He's not saying it was manufactured or faked; no, he's saying it never existed in the first place.

Then they turn around and say they really want to discuss the evidence in this event. They truly do. Sure, to perform their rhetorical magic tricks to make it disappear.

The evidence against LHO disappears when one simply views it as none points to him. This is why the LNers stay away from it beyond some safe testimony which was NOT open to cross-examination.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 13, 2018, 12:45:15 AM
Mitch Todd: She didn't say she saw him enter the theater. She said she saw him come around the corner into the space where the ticket booth was, but didn't see him go through the door.

She was inconsistent as she didn't say that in her affidavit. If you want to use Postal then you have to tie her suspicions to the killing of JFK as she had no idea that JDT had been killed.
She did say it in her affidavit.

"Johnny asked me if I sold that man a ticket. I asked him what man. He said that man that just ducked in here.I told him no, I didn't, but I had noticed him as he ducked in here." It's worded kind of confusingly, but she clearly states that she "noticed him." "Here" simply means the recessed area around the box office. It's a stated more clearly in her testimony:

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. Who is your boss?
Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan.
Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other----into the outer part of it.
Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.
Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes.

Why would she think a killer of JFK in DP would be four miles away in Oak Cliff? Furthermore, why would the said killer be going into a movie theater instead of heading out of town?
Again, she didn't say that she thought he was a suspect. She probably wouldn't have given him a second thought had Brewer not asked her about the guy.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 13, 2018, 01:01:08 AM
Then why did she say "what man?" when Brewer asked her about him?
Because she initially didn't know who he was talking about. Oswald may not have been the only man in her immediate vicinity. In fact, we know he wasn't; she said that Oswald passed her manager, Mr Callahan as he left the building and got into his car. And there may have been others.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 13, 2018, 02:54:44 AM
Why is a shoe salesman's opinion of suspicious behavior that he can't even describe any better than anyone else's, including a cowardly anonymous Internet troll's?

You can't be serious.

Why is a shoe salesman's opinion of suspicious behavior better than anyone else's ?

Because the shoe salesman in question was there !

His opinion of whether Saint Patsy was acting suspicious is the ONLY one that matters.

It's hilarious watching an obtuse blowhard wannabe Gerry Spence try to convince the forum jury that Brewer had no reason to suspect Oswald.

Are you trying to convince people Brewer was unjustified or wrong to think your client was acting suspiciously ?  Is this an attempt to imply that Brewer shouldn't have taken the actions he did ?

Again, Brewer was there. You weren't.

It doesn't matter that YOU aren't satisfied with his explanation of why he found Saint Patsy suspicious (no explanation would satisfy you anyway). All that matters is he DID find your hero suspicious and took the prudent and swift measures which resulted in your client's apprehension.

You're the biggest troll on this forum.

You have a reflex action to try to defend Saint Patsy and discredit every single bit of evidence against him. That's evidenced by the sheer volume of your posts. Only problem is you're failing miserably. This latest episode of trying to disparage a shoe salesman and question whether he was justified in suspecting your hero is just another in a long line of patently ridiculous Iacoletti troll nonsense.

By the way Goofy, using a forum provided avatar doesn't make one 'cowardly'.

LMAO @ the sanctimonious hypocrite windbag troll whining about belligerence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 13, 2018, 03:36:28 AM
(https://s15.postimg.cc/minfxhrff/Oswald_Brewer.gif)

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember the sirens going away?
Mr. BREWER - Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre.


JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 13, 2018, 03:40:15 AM
Why is a shoe salesman's opinion of suspicious behavior that he blah blah blah..

Mr. BELIN - What is the address of that shop in Dallas?
Mr. BREWER - 213 West Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN - They made you the manager of that shop?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - How long have you been manager?
Mr. BREWER - Since August of 1962.
Mr. BELIN - From August 1962 on?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Until the present time?
Mr. BREWER - Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store.
Mr. BELIN - Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d?
Mr. BREWER - Second.
Mr. BELIN - You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store?
Mr. BREWER - Yes, sir.


JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 13, 2018, 04:54:49 AM
She did say it in her affidavit.

"Johnny asked me if I sold that man a ticket. I asked him what man. He said that man that just ducked in here.I told him no, I didn't, but I had noticed him as he ducked in here." It's worded kind of confusingly, but she clearly states that she "noticed him." "Here" simply means the recessed area around the box office. It's a stated more clearly in her testimony:

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. Who is your boss?
Mrs. POSTAL. Mr. John A. Callahan.
Mr. BALL. Where did you say he was?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.
Mr. BALL. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; just ducked into the other----into the outer part of it.
Mr. BALL. I see, out in the open space?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.
Mr. BALL. Just right around the corner?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes.
Again, she didn't say that she thought he was a suspect. She probably wouldn't have given him a second thought had Brewer not asked her about the guy.

How could she see the man duck into the TT, but not know if he purchased a ticket when she sold the tickets? It is impossible.

Why didn't Brewer see the man when he went in to look for him?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 13, 2018, 06:40:05 AM
Pointing out that a gorilla playing basketball is not relevant to whether a bag was or was not in a crime scene is not mocking and insulting.  Sorry, you're going to have to find some different rhetoric.

You've just misrepresented the whole point of the invisible gorilla tests. People were distracted by concentrating on something else. Maybe they should have a car driving through the room and watch half the people get run over. Would that sink in, concept-wise, professor... would it take that for you to get the concept?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 13, 2018, 06:47:59 AM
Why didn't Brewer see the man when he went in to look for him?

You mean at first, or eventually..? A movie was playing, and it takes time for the eyes to adjust to a darkened theater, especially on a bright sunny day.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 13, 2018, 07:07:48 AM
You've just misrepresented the whole point of the invisible gorilla tests.

 Thumb1:

https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/were-only-human/the-really-scary-invisible-gorilla.html

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/but-did-you-see-the-gorilla-the-problem-with-inattentional-blindness-17339778/

https://www.livescience.com/6727-invisible-gorilla-test-shows-notice.html

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/and-all-jazz/201009/must-read-the-invisible-gorilla

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110418083249.htm

http://search.bwh.harvard.edu/new/pubs/DrewVoWolfe13.pdf

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 13, 2018, 07:23:52 AM
How could she see the man duck into the TT, but not know if he purchased a ticket when she sold the tickets? It is impossible.
She didn't say she saw the man duck into the Theater. She said she saw him duck into the recessed area in front of the box office and doors. Then she turned to see something going on to the West, which is when the guy went through the door that was now behind her. Until Brewer brought her attention to the guy, he was just a pedestrian to her.

For reference, here's a view of the Texas Theater:

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7431907,-96.826047,3a,39.3y,11.83h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9PyQ5zmWgGMSxT5qxBRATQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


Why didn't Brewer see the man when he went in to look for him?
Brewer said that he and Burroughs first went to check the exits to see if anyone had left. Then they went to the balcony and looked around. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure it's easy to ID someone by the back of their head in a dark room.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Jerry Organ on September 13, 2018, 01:50:41 PM

You're the biggest troll on this forum.

... long line of patently ridiculous Iacoletti troll nonsense.

LMAO @ the sanctimonious hypocrite windbag troll whining about belligerence.

(https://i.giphy.com/10xZU9b7JBx14s.gif)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 13, 2018, 03:17:14 PM
You mean at first, or eventually..? A movie was playing, and it takes time for the eyes to adjust to a darkened theater, especially on a bright sunny day.

Quote those qualifiers in her affidavit. Go ahead.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 13, 2018, 03:24:22 PM
She didn't say she saw the man duck into the Theater. She said she saw him duck into the recessed area in front of the box office and doors. Then she turned to see something going on to the West, which is when the guy went through the door that was now behind her. Until Brewer brought her attention to the guy, he was just a pedestrian to her.

For reference, here's a view of the Texas Theater:

https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7431907,-96.826047,3a,39.3y,11.83h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9PyQ5zmWgGMSxT5qxBRATQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Brewer said that he and Burroughs first went to check the exits to see if anyone had left. Then they went to the balcony and looked around. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure it's easy to ID someone by the back of their head in a dark room.

If your explanation is accurate, and that is doubtful, then she should have known that she did NOT sell a ticket to him, but she wasn't sure. How come? Why didn't she find him suspicious like Brewer allegedly did? Why was staring more suspicious behavior than ducking?

If all those excuses were true, why did they bother to look for him then?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 06:30:02 PM
You can't be serious.

Why is a shoe salesman's opinion of suspicious behavior better than anyone else's ?

Because the shoe salesman in question was there !

His opinion of whether Saint Patsy was acting suspicious is the ONLY one that matters.

It's hilarious watching an obtuse blowhard wannabe Gerry Spence try to convince the forum jury that Brewer had no reason to suspect Oswald.

Are you trying to convince people Brewer was unjustified or wrong to think your client was acting suspiciously ?  Is this an attempt to imply that Brewer shouldn't have taken the actions he did ?

Again, Brewer was there. You weren't.

It doesn't matter that YOU aren't satisfied with his explanation of why he found Saint Patsy suspicious (no explanation would satisfy you anyway). All that matters is he DID find your hero suspicious and took the prudent and swift measures which resulted in your client's apprehension.

Is any of your sanctimonious hypocrite windbag troll whining supposed to demonstrate that Oswald killed anybody?  Of course not. 

Quote
By the way Goofy, using a forum provided avatar doesn't make one 'cowardly'.

No, it's your behavior that makes you cowardly.  You sit there behind your anonymous computer screen and sling abusive juvenile insults from the safety of your mom's basement and derail any productive conversation about the case because that's what trolls do.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 06:32:45 PM
So Mytton is back and we have learned that a clip from a TV movie demonstrates what Brewer saw and that being a shoe store "manager" somehow makes him not a shoe salesman.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 06:37:23 PM
You've just misrepresented the whole point of the invisible gorilla tests. People were distracted by concentrating on something else. Maybe they should have a car driving through the room and watch half the people get run over. Would that sink in, concept-wise, professor... would it take that for you to get the concept?

It's not that I don't "get" the concept -- it's that the concept doesn't apply.  What were the law enforcement officers who were examining the crime scene "distracted" by?  Were the deputies playing basketball in the SN while a 38 x 8 inch bag waltzed through in a gorilla costume?

And I guess you forgot all about how I supposedly insulted you by pointing this out.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 06:48:47 PM
She didn't say she saw the man duck into the Theater. She said she saw him duck into the recessed area in front of the box office and doors. Then she turned to see something going on to the West, which is when the guy went through the door that was now behind her. Until Brewer brought her attention to the guy, he was just a pedestrian to her.

This doesn't wash.  She notices him enough to see a "panicked look on his face" and to think he's "running from the police" (even though he wasn't running), and then decides to just turn around and look the other way?  Then Brewer immediately comes up to her and asks about the man and she doesn't know what man or whether or not he bought a ticket?  I think she just didn't want to admit that she supposedly let a guy sneak by her without noticing him at all.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 06:58:03 PM
(https://i.giphy.com/10xZU9b7JBx14s.gif)

A troll is someone who disrupts and deflects conversations with insulting or provocative posts with the goal of stirring people up and then getting his jollies watching people react.

That would be Howard.

I talk about the case and the evidence.  Howard talks about other people on the forum.  I don't personally attack people, call them names, or make fun of their physical appearance -- I call out bad behavior.  All Howard does is personally attack people and he has had multiple posts edited or deleted and has been suspended from the forum multiple times as a result.  What Howard does is indefensible, and yet you defend him.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 13, 2018, 07:14:21 PM
It's not that I don't "get" the concept -- it's that the concept doesn't apply.  What were the law enforcement officers who were examining the crime scene "distracted" by?  Were the deputies playing basketball in the SN while a 38 x 8 inch bag waltzed through in a gorilla costume?

And I guess you forgot all about how I supposedly insulted you by pointing this out.

'And I guess you forgot all about how I supposedly insulted you by pointing this out.'
>>> Keep guessing. You're once again hurling insults by childishly mocking the 'invisible gorilla' findings regarding IB science 

The investigation re some deputies noticed a large bag/some didn't fits the model of the invisible gorilla experiments (which spawned IB science). Pick up a book and find the role 'state-of-mind' can play in distracting some oobservers.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 07:24:57 PM
'And I guess you forgot all about how I supposedly insulted you by pointing this out.'
>>> Keep guessing. You're once again hurling insults by childishly mocking the 'invisible gorilla' findings regarding IB science 

The investigation re some deputies noticed a large bag/some didn't fits the model of the invisible gorilla experiments (which spawned IB science). Pick up a book and find the role state-of-mind can play in distracting some oobservers.

Please point out where I insulted you.

You're ignoring an important detail.  The ones who noticed the bag were the ones who were in the SN later, and the ones who didn't see a bag there were the ones who were in the SN when it was first discovered.

But please continue.  What "state of mind" do you propose would cause crime scene investigators not to notice a large object out in the open in the middle of a crime scene?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 13, 2018, 08:13:13 PM

No, it's your behavior that makes you cowardly.  You sit there behind your anonymous computer screen and sling abusive juvenile insults from the safety of your mom's basement and derail any productive conversation about the case because that's what trolls do.

You're way too easy, Jimbo. :D ;D
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 08:19:00 PM
You're way too easy, Jimbo. :D ;D

Notice that the troll doesn't dispute any of these things...

Bullies count on the ability to whine when their behavior is called out.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 13, 2018, 08:21:18 PM


Please point out where I insulted you.
>>> Don't worry, I'm used to it

What "state of mind" do you propose would cause crime scene investigators not to notice a large object out in the open in the middle of a crime scene?
>>> This has been covered, both in other threads regarding the gun bag, and IB science.

You're ignoring an important detail.  The ones who noticed the bag were the ones who were in the SN later, and the ones who didn't see a bag there were the ones who were in the SN when it was first discovered.


The Long Brown Bag
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

[EXCERPT]

It might seem suspicious that six police officers did not see the bag, until we look at the details of their testimony. None of the six could reasonably have been expected to see it. (1)

1.  Conspiracy theorists claim that these six officers show the bag was not in the depository and that the bag was forged. A little research into why these officers never saw the bag leads to a different conclusion. One such officer is Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, and while he is correctly credited with finding the sniper's nest, he is wrongly assumed to have searched for anything else in the depository. When he found the sniper's nest, he simply called to Lieutenant Day and made sure no one touched anything until Day arrived. When Day did arrive, Mooney stayed in the Depository for only 15-20 minutes longer, but the bag was not discovered until sometime later. He himself states that he did not look for it (3H287-9). Mooney, like most of the officers, was only concerned with finding the weapon and not other evidence at the time.

Officer J. B. Hicks was also questioned. He testified that he had not seen the sack, but he also testified he had not arrived at the depository until 3 pm while the long bag had been photographed leaving at 2:19 (7H287-9).
Captain J. W. Fritz also stated that he did not see the bag but that the bag was found later when he was not there,
Sergeant Gerald Hill states he "left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun (7H65)."
Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig left immediately after the rifle was found and photographed (6H268-70).
Detective Elmer L. Boyd did not see the bag because he left once he heard about the shooting of Officer J.D. Tippit (7H120-2). The rifle bag was not found until after the shooting of Tippit which Boyd and several officers left to help investigate.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 08:53:32 PM
Please point out where I insulted you.
>>> Don't worry, I'm used to it

Just as I thought -- you can't.

Quote
What "state of mind" do you propose would cause crime scene investigators not to notice a large object out in the open in the middle of a crime scene?
>>> This has been covered, both in other threads regarding the gun bag, and IB science.

No, it never was.  You invoked "inattentional blindness" but didn't explain why or how it applied to law enforcement officers examining a crime scene, or a guy taking photographs right there in the crime scene.

Quote
The Long Brown Bag

...and another cut-and-paste from McAdams.

But McAdams doesn't address the twelve people that Tony has demonstrated were first on the scene and saw no bag.  Nor does he even explain why leaving after the rifle was found precludes someone from seeing a bag in the SN before the rifle was found.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 13, 2018, 08:57:24 PM
Notice that the troll doesn't dispute any of these things...


For the record, I will non belligerently and without juvenile insults dispute that I'm a coward who lives in his mom's basement.

Now can we get back on with the productive conversation in which you convince the forum that Brewer didn't have a valid reason to suspect Saint Patsy of anything ?

Here, let me help you....

Looked 'funny', LOL

Looked 'scared', LOL

More of this incisive analysis and productive conversation, please.

You're doing a fine job of representing Saint Patsy !
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 09:01:16 PM
Now can we get back on with the productive conversation in which you convince the forum that Brewer didn't have a valid reason to suspect Saint Patsy of anything ?

Here, let me help you....

Looked 'funny', LOL

Looked 'scared', LOL

More of this incisive analysis and productive conversation, please.

Is there supposed to be a valid reason to suspect somebody of murder somewhere in that wall of nonsense?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 13, 2018, 09:18:25 PM
Is there supposed to be a valid reason to suspect somebody of murder somewhere in that wall of nonsense?

Glad you asked that.

Yes, there is.

You see, the cops were searching for a suspect in the murder of another officer.

You do understand that, right ?

Now counselor, if someone looked scared while the cops were passing by, what should Brewer's reaction be ?

Should he think 'Looked scared, LOL' and just go back to managing his shoe store ?

Or did Brewer act prudently and rationally and take justified reasonable action ?

Wall of nonsense, LOL
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 09:32:20 PM
You see, the cops were searching for a suspect in the murder of another officer.

You do understand that, right ?

Ok, so far.  But we're talking about Brewer, not "the cops".

Quote
Now counselor, if someone looked scared while the cops were passing by, what should Brewer's reaction be ?

I don't know.  Brewer never even explained what "looking scared" meant, given that he was just standing there staring.

But I don't care.  Brewer's not any more required to be rational than you are.  I'm more interested in why the cops considered the man that Postal supposedly described as a murder suspect.  That's their job, not Brewer's.

But if you have a rational reason for why a person staring in a window should be considered a murder suspect, then present it, rather than trying to turn it around like you always do.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 13, 2018, 09:46:11 PM
Ok, so far.  But we're talking about Brewer, not "the cops".

I don't know.  Brewer never even explained what "looking scared" meant, given that he was just standing there staring.

But I don't care.  Brewer's not any more required to be rational than you are.  I'm more interested in why the cops considered the man that Postal supposedly described as a murder suspect.  That's their job, not Brewer's.

But if you have a rational reason for why a person staring in a window should be considered a murder suspect, then present it, rather than trying to turn it around like you always do.

Not too bright, are you counselor ?

Let's go through it again.

Cops are searching for murder suspect.

Brewer sees man that looks scared and takes action which results in cops being notified that a suspect is probably in the TT.

What part of that sequence is so difficult for you to grasp or accept ?

Sheesh.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 09:52:17 PM
Not too bright, are you counselor ?

And there you go again.  One trick pony.

Quote
Let's go through it again.

Cops are searching for murder suspect.

Brewer sees man that looks scared and takes action which results in cops being notified that a suspect is probably in the TT.

What part of that sequence is so difficult for you to grasp or accept ?

Sheesh.

Sheesh, indeed.  What part of that is supposed to explain WHY this person should be considered a murder suspect?  We all know the sequence of events, Howard.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 10:26:13 PM
You can't be this dense.

You don't understand what "why" means, and I'm the one who's dense?

Quote
The cops are looking for a murder suspect.

Yes....what does that have to do with Brewer?

Quote
Brewer sees a man that looks scared and rightly concludes the man might be a suspect in the murder.

Yes.  WHY?  What did he see that indicated murderer?  And you don't know that it was "rightly", that's just more posturing.

Quote
What's so hard to understand ?

What's hard to understand is why you think restating a claim somehow substantiates that claim.  Again, we all know what Brewer (said he) concluded.  The question is why?

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 13, 2018, 10:44:37 PM
Please point out where I insulted you.
>>> Don't worry, I'm used to it

What "state of mind" do you propose would cause crime scene investigators not to notice a large object out in the open in the middle of a crime scene?
>>> This has been covered, both in other threads regarding the gun bag, and IB science.

You're ignoring an important detail.  The ones who noticed the bag were the ones who were in the SN later, and the ones who didn't see a bag there were the ones who were in the SN when it was first discovered.


The Long Brown Bag
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bag.htm

[EXCERPT]

It might seem suspicious that six police officers did not see the bag, until we look at the details of their testimony. None of the six could reasonably have been expected to see it. (1)

1.  Conspiracy theorists claim that these six officers show the bag was not in the depository and that the bag was forged. A little research into why these officers never saw the bag leads to a different conclusion. One such officer is Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, and while he is correctly credited with finding the sniper's nest, he is wrongly assumed to have searched for anything else in the depository. When he found the sniper's nest, he simply called to Lieutenant Day and made sure no one touched anything until Day arrived. When Day did arrive, Mooney stayed in the Depository for only 15-20 minutes longer, but the bag was not discovered until sometime later. He himself states that he did not look for it (3H287-9). Mooney, like most of the officers, was only concerned with finding the weapon and not other evidence at the time.

Officer J. B. Hicks was also questioned. He testified that he had not seen the sack, but he also testified he had not arrived at the depository until 3 pm while the long bag had been photographed leaving at 2:19 (7H287-9).
Captain J. W. Fritz also stated that he did not see the bag but that the bag was found later when he was not there,
Sergeant Gerald Hill states he "left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun (7H65)."
Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig left immediately after the rifle was found and photographed (6H268-70).
Detective Elmer L. Boyd did not see the bag because he left once he heard about the shooting of Officer J.D. Tippit (7H120-2). The rifle bag was not found until after the shooting of Tippit which Boyd and several officers left to help investigate.

What is with the ">>>>" stuff? This reminds me of ACJ where one particular LNer used this all the time.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 13, 2018, 10:55:34 PM
You don't understand what "why" means, and I'm the one who's dense?

Yes....what does that have to do with Brewer?

Yes.  WHY?  What did he see that indicated murderer?  And you don't know that it was "rightly", that's just more posturing.

What's hard to understand is why you think restating a claim somehow substantiates that claim.  Again, we all know what Brewer (said he) concluded.  The question is why?

The real question is why you're incapable of understanding or accepting that Brewer thought Saint Patsy looked scared and became suspicious of your hero.

It's not a 'claim' that Brewer thought your hero looked scared, it's a fact that's substantiated by his actions.

It's also a fact that Brewer didn't think a manhunt was on for a jaywalker.

Why do you think Brewer got involved ?

Did he have a vendetta against your hero ?

Had nothing better to do ?

After pages and pages of this, you actually ask 'what does this have to do with Brewer ?'

Unreal.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 13, 2018, 11:08:18 PM
What part of that is supposed to explain WHY this person should be considered a murder suspect?

Why not is a better question. What do you think Brewer should have done?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 11:22:04 PM
The real question is why you're incapable of understanding or accepting that Brewer thought Saint Patsy looked scared and became suspicious of your hero.

The fact that you can't make a coherent argument without the "Saint Patsy" and "your hero" rhetoric speaks volumes.

Quote
It's not a 'claim' that Brewer thought your hero looked scared, it's a fact that's substantiated by his actions.

Speaking of dense....the claim in this case is that Brewer had a valid reason to think that the man he saw had just murdered a cop.  Not that Brewer thought he looked scared.  We all know what Brewer said.

Quote
It's also a fact that Brewer didn't think a manhunt was on for a jaywalker.

Do you have some reason to think that Brewer knew a manhunt was on for anybody?

Quote
Why do you think Brewer got involved ?

Did he have a vendetta against your hero ?

Had nothing better to do ?

Do you always answer questions with other questions?  Or just when you can't answer them?

Quote
After pages and pages of this, you actually ask 'what does this have to do with Brewer ?'
Unreal.

Well, that would be denseness again.  I asked what the fact that the the cops were looking for a murderer had to do with Brewer (who was not a cop).  Got an answer?  Or is "unreal" supposed to suffice?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 11:23:42 PM
Why not is a better question.

Well, Steve, go to an amusement park and watch the people get off the roller coaster. Do some of them look "scared"?  Do you suspect them of murder?

Why not?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 13, 2018, 11:24:26 PM

Do you always answer questions with other questions?  Or just when you can't answer them?


Too funny. You are a laugh a minute.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 13, 2018, 11:26:12 PM
Well, Steve, go to an amusement park and watch the people get off the roller coaster. Do some of them look "scared"?  Do you suspect them of murder?


Was there an amusement park outside the shoe store? Where's your source for that?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 11:34:03 PM
Was there an amusement park outside the shoe store? Where's your source for that?

I thought we were talking about "looking scared" making somebody a murder suspect.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 13, 2018, 11:36:03 PM
So Mytton is back and we have learned that a clip from a TV movie demonstrates what Brewer saw and that being a shoe store "manager" somehow makes him not a shoe salesman.

Quote
So Mytton is back

Yes, here I am and I have no to need to worry because I know where to find you, 8 hours a day Mon to Friday.

Quote
and we have learned that a clip from a TV movie demonstrates what Brewer saw

Oliver Stone made a lot of money by demonstrating what people saw.

Quote
and that being a shoe store "manager" somehow makes him not a shoe salesman.

Where the heck did I say that, too much Kool Aid perhaps?
All I did was post Brewer's testimony citing his Job Position.

Mr. BELIN - How long have you been manager?
Mr. BREWER - Since August of 1962.


JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 11:40:00 PM
Yes, here I am and I have no to need to worry because I know where to find you, 8 hours a day Mon to Friday.

"No to need to worry"?  Trust me, I wasn't the least bit worried.

Quote
Oliver Stone made a lot of money by demonstrating what people saw.

No, Oliver Stone made money by making movies.  "John Mytton" uses movies to make bad arguments.

Quote
Where the heck did I say that, too much Kool Aid perhaps?
All I did was post Brewer's testimony citing his Job Position.

Sure, perhaps you'd like to explain the relevance?  Or was that just a random factoid you decided to throw in there for no apparent reason?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 13, 2018, 11:43:48 PM
"No to need to worry"?  Trust me, I wasn't the least bit worried.

No, Oliver Stone made money by making movies.  "John Mytton" uses movies to make bad arguments.

Sure, perhaps you'd like to explain the relevance?  Or was that just a random factoid you decided to throw in there for no apparent reason?

Brewer was the manager of a shoe store. Give the man his proper title.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 11:48:28 PM
Brewer was the manager of a shoe store. Give the man his proper title.

You guys focus on the strangest things.  Does that make a whit of difference regarding his testimony and his observances?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 13, 2018, 11:53:31 PM
Was there an amusement park outside the shoe store? Where's your source for that?

So that's why Saint Patsy looked scared....he just got off a roller coaster in the amusement park outside the shoe store. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 13, 2018, 11:59:17 PM
So that's why Saint Patsy looked scared....he just got off a roller coaster in the amusement park outside the shoe store.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCcwB9C97cq_IRZX70MDiup2f2_GtgyiwMp7LHZ4-VMpx5yln_eQ)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 12:03:43 AM
"No to need to worry"?  Trust me, I wasn't the least bit worried.

No, Oliver Stone made money by making movies.  "John Mytton" uses movies to make bad arguments.

Sure, perhaps you'd like to explain the relevance?  Or was that just a random factoid you decided to throw in there for no apparent reason?

Quote
"No to need to worry"?  Trust me, I wasn't the least bit worried.

I wouldn't trust you as far as I could throw you.

Quote
No, Oliver Stone made money by making movies.

Where did I say that Oliver Stone didn't make money?

Quote
"John Mytton" uses movies to make bad arguments.

Why didn't you quote my name in your initial post, another Iacoletti inconsistency to add to the list.

So Mytton is back....

Quote
Sure, perhaps you'd like to explain the relevance?

I go by the evidence.

Quote
Or was that just a random factoid you decided to throw in there for no apparent reason?

Brewer's testimony defined his job position.

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 12:08:55 AM
Well that was certainly a waste of forum space, but thanks for sharing.  :D
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 14, 2018, 12:09:05 AM
So that's why Saint Patsy looked scared....he just got off a roller coaster in the amusement park outside the shoe store.

Add that to the fake cop car with the screeching tires (maybe the driver had big shoes and a large red nose) that spun 180 degrees and Oswald with a gut full of hot dogs, turkey legs and ice cream cones. It's no wonder he looked a little off color.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 12:10:46 AM
Add that to the fake cop car with the screeching tires (maybe the drive had big shoes and a large red nose) that spun 180 degrees and Oswald with a gut full of hot dogs, turkey legs and ice cream cones. It's no wonder he looked a little off color.

I can understand why people resort to sarcasm (oops, I mean "satire") when they really have nothing else to contribute.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 12:15:20 AM
I thought we were talking about "looking scared" making somebody a murder suspect.

The following clip gives a good representation of Brewer's testimony which shows what is clearly suspicious behaviour and after seeing Oswald disappear into the Texas Theater Brewer and then adding that to Postal's observation it would be a criminal act not to ring the police!

(https://s15.postimg.cc/minfxhrff/Oswald_Brewer.gif)

Brewer accepting his award.

(http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/johnnycbrewer_112311.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 14, 2018, 04:07:02 AM
I thought we were talking about "looking scared" making somebody a murder suspect.

Actually, we were talking about Saint Patsy looking scared and Brewer suspecting your hero might be the person the cops were searching for on 11/22/63.

We weren't talking about just anyone looking scared at any given moment in time being a suspect for any murder that ever occurred.

It's amazing that distinction goes right over your head.

Conflating troll.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 14, 2018, 06:24:28 AM
Actually, we were talking about Saint Patsy looking scared and Brewer suspecting your hero might be the person the cops were searching for on 11/22/63.

We weren't talking about just anyone looking scared at any given moment in time being a suspect for any murder that ever occurred.

It's amazing that distinction goes right over your head.

Conflating troll.

This Oswald facial expression could pass for scared

(https://s8.postimg.cc/sxdgp8hzp/oswald_scared.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 14, 2018, 06:30:47 AM
The following clip gives a good representation of Brewer's testimony which shows what is clearly suspicious behaviour and after seeing Oswald disappear into the Texas Theater Brewer and then adding that to Postal's observation it would be a criminal act not to ring the police!

(https://s15.postimg.cc/minfxhrff/Oswald_Brewer.gif)

JohnM

Perfect. Nice recreation. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Which film was that from? The guy looks exactly like Oswald.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 14, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
Perfect. Nice recreation. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Only if it is an accurate recreation though.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 11:42:55 AM
Perfect. Nice recreation. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Which film was that from? The guy looks exactly like Oswald.

 Thumb1:

David Von Pein's JFK Channel

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 14, 2018, 12:54:30 PM
Only if it is an accurate recreation though.

(https://s15.postimg.cc/minfxhrff/Oswald_Brewer.gif)

According to Brewer, Oswald had messed up hair and looked like he had been running whereas Frederic Forest in the "Oswald and Ruby" movie has nicely combed hair, also Frederic doesn't seem to look like he had been running, so in real life Oswald would have looked like more of a mess. In addition for cinematic reasons the Police car does a U-turn right out the front, Brewer says the U turn happened a bit further down the street.
So besides those changes the movie is close to Brewer's descriptions.

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember the sirens going away?
Mr. BREWER - Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brewer_j.htm

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 14, 2018, 01:12:42 PM
Anyway, to get back to the original question of this thread; why did Saint Patsy go to the movies ?

I submit that the evidence clearly shows that Saint Oz was in flight. He didn't plan to go to the movies. He just happened to wind up in the theater after murdering Ofiicer Tippit.

There is an extremely remote possibility that the theater was a pre-arranged place to meet at after the assassination, but there's not a shred of evidence to support that idea, and plenty of reasons to doubt it.

I find it interesting that none of the conspiracy clowns have stated why they think Saint Patsy went to the movies.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 14, 2018, 02:49:12 PM
For the thousandth time, why does it matter whether Oswald looked "scared" or not if nothing nefarious is being suggested regarding Brewer's conduct?  Even if Brewer had acted unreasonably, but from a subjective belief that Oswald was suspicious, that doesn't change the narrative of events one iota.  Again, this is a desperate attempt to imply that Brewer was acting for some nefarious purpose but without acknowledging that is the intent.  It then goes down the rabbit hole of why someone looking scared would be considered a murder suspect (how about because the police received a report of a suspicious person in the area where a murder had just been committed?).  Suggesting that scenario is comparable to someone looking scared getting off a rollercoaster is one of the most absurd comparisons in the history of this forum. The dishonest contrarian should apologize for making all of us dumber for having read that nonsense.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 14, 2018, 03:04:27 PM
For the thousandth time, why does it matter whether Oswald looked "scared" or not if nothing nefarious is being suggested regarding Brewer's conduct?  Even if Brewer had acted unreasonably, but from a subjective belief that Oswald was suspicious, that doesn't change the narrative of events one iota.  Again, this is a desperate attempt to imply that Brewer was acting for some nefarious purpose but without acknowledging that is the intent.  It then goes down the rabbit hole of why someone looking scared would be considered a murder suspect (how about because the police received a report of a suspicious person in the area where a murder had just been committed?).  Suggesting that scenario is comparable to someone looking scared getting off a rollercoaster is one of the most absurd comparisons in the history of this forum. The dishonest contrarian should apologize for making all of us dumber for having read that nonsense.
Let's try this (devil's advocacy): If Brewer's interpretation of Oswald's behavior was just wrong - he simply innocently misread Oswald's actions (appearing frightened et cetera) - then that removes part of the evidence of Oswald's shooting of Tippit and from that his involvement in the assassination.

To put it differently, our belief is Oswald was scared or frightened and in flight after shooting Tippit (and JFK earlier). But if Brewer's reading of Oswald's face/body/actions were incorrect - not because he was framing Oswald but just because he was wrong - then that weakens the "Oswald was in flight" interpretation of his post-assassination actions.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 14, 2018, 03:33:56 PM
Anyway, to get back to the original question of this thread; why did Saint Patsy go to the movies ?

I submit that the evidence clearly shows that Saint Oz was in flight. He didn't plan to go to the movies. He just happened to wind up in the theater after murdering Ofiicer Tippit.

There is an extremely remote possibility that the theater was a pre-arranged place to meet at after the assassination, but there's not a shred of evidence to support that idea, and plenty of reasons to doubt it.

I find it interesting that none of the conspiracy clowns have stated why they think Saint Patsy went to the movies.

Some have claimed he was to meet his 'handlers' there. Great plan, huh? Leave Dirty Harvey alone post shots and hope he gets lucky enough to make his way to the movies. And hope he doesn't spill the beans to save his arse should he get caught while 'out for a walk' (as Martini put it).
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 05:57:01 PM
Actually, we were talking about Saint Patsy looking scared and Brewer suspecting your hero might be the person the cops were searching for on 11/22/63.

Did you ever get around to figuring out how you know that Brewer knew that the cops were searching for somebody?

Or did he just figure that out from a "scared look"?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 06:00:26 PM
For the thousandth time, why does it matter whether Oswald looked "scared" or not if nothing nefarious is being suggested regarding Brewer's conduct?  Even if Brewer had acted unreasonably, but from a subjective belief that Oswald was suspicious, that doesn't change the narrative of events one iota.  Again, this is a desperate attempt to imply that Brewer was acting for some nefarious purpose but without acknowledging that is the intent.  It then goes down the rabbit hole of why someone looking scared would be considered a murder suspect (how about because the police received a report of a suspicious person in the area where a murder had just been committed?).  Suggesting that scenario is comparable to someone looking scared getting off a rollercoaster is one of the most absurd comparisons in the history of this forum. The dishonest contrarian should apologize for making all of us dumber for having read that nonsense.

After all this time, "Richard" still can't understand why nobody has to prove the fantasy conspirators that he dreamed up.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 06:05:19 PM
The following clip gives a good representation of Brewer's testimony which shows what is clearly suspicious behaviour

 :D

No it's a dramatization of what somebody imagined that Brewer was describing.  And as we've learned in thousands of "Mytton" interactions on this forum, adding the word "clearly" to an opinion doesn't turn it into a fact.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 14, 2018, 07:51:20 PM
Did you ever get around to figuring out how you know that Brewer knew that the cops were searching for somebody?

Or did he just figure that out from a "scared look"?

Of course Brewer knew the cops were looking for Tippit's murderer.

Only Trolletti doesn't know that's what cops do.

He didn't figure out the cops were looking for Tippit's murderer based on a scared look, he already knew they were searching for a suspect.

The scared look just made your hero a suspect.

Stop embarrassing yourself Troll.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 07:54:58 PM
Of course Brewer knew the cops were looking for Tippit's murderer.

Well, I guess that settles it.  Howard said "of course", therefore it must be true.  :D

I'm not the one embarrassing myself.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 14, 2018, 08:11:00 PM
Well, I guess that settles it.  Howard said "of course", therefore it must be true.  :D

I'm not the one embarrassing myself.

OK Trolletti, have it your way. Brewer had no idea the cops were searching for a suspect in Tippit's murder.

Happy now ?

What a troll.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 08:41:35 PM
OK Trolletti, have it your way. Brewer had no idea the cops were searching for a suspect in Tippit's murder.

Happy now ?

What a troll.

I'd be happy if you would even once, try to support one of your claims with evidence rather than insults and sarcasm.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 14, 2018, 08:46:21 PM
Did you ever get around to figuring out how you know that Brewer knew that the cops were searching for somebody?

Or did he just figure that out from a "scared look"?

According to Brewer, he had been listening to the reports of the assassination (and Tippit shooting) on the radio, and coupled with his remarks about the relative nearby distance to Dealey Plaza from the store and the closeby cop-killing location, he said he thought that maybe the 'guy' might be the one they were looking for.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 14, 2018, 08:52:05 PM
I'd be happy if you would even once, try to support one of your claims with evidence rather than insults and sarcasm.

And I'd be happy if you took a long walk off a short pier.

Get lost, Troll.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 14, 2018, 08:59:44 PM
According to Brewer, he had been listening to the reports of the assassination (and Tippit shooting) on the radio, and coupled with his remarks about the relative nearby distance to Dealey Plaza from the store and the closeby cop-killing location, he said he thought that maybe the 'guy' might be the one they were looking for.

Thanks Bill, you're already miles ahead of TrollGee.  He just fell off of a pier.

Can you point me to where Brewer said he thought that maybe the 'guy' might be the one they were looking for?  I don't see anything like that in his affidavit or testimony.

Also, what radio station reported on the Tippit shooting within 15 minutes of it supposedly happening?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 02:59:52 AM
It's nice of Gee to admit that LHO was a patsy as he claimed. I wonder if that will cost him his LNer membership?

Do you ever post evidence?

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 03:06:28 AM
I'd be happy if you would even once, try to support one of your claims with evidence

The irony is that you also rarely post evidence and instead rely on your memory where everything is dishonestly stripped back to its barest essentials and numbers like 3 magically become 2. LOL

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 03:07:37 AM
Do you ever post evidence?

JohnM

Yes. And then *you* call for its removal! 🧟‍
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 03:08:44 AM
The irony is that you also rarely post evidence and instead rely on your memory where everything is dishonestly stripped back to its barest essentials and numbers like 3 magically become 2. LOL

JohnM

Mytton posts nothing but UNSUPPORTED claims ripped from the WCR.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 03:11:28 AM
The LNers cannot explain the official narrative. If Brewer was involved as claimed and he knew about JDT's murder, why didn't Postal know about it until the police arrived?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 15, 2018, 03:13:26 AM
It's nice of Gee to admit that LHO was a patsy as he claimed. I wonder if that will cost him his LNer membership?

That's odd. I don't remember 'admitting' your hero was a patsy.

Just another bit of Carpio delusional trolling.

What year did Benavides die ????   :D :D
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 03:21:35 AM
The LNers cannot explain the official narrative. If Brewer was involved as claimed and he knew about JDT's murder, why didn't Postal know about it until the police arrived?

Rob, can you point out when and where Brewer said he told Postal about Tippit's murder?

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 15, 2018, 06:57:42 AM
Thanks Bill, you're already miles ahead of TrollGee.  He just fell off of a pier.

Can you point me to where Brewer said he thought that maybe the 'guy' might be the one they were looking for?  I don't see anything like that in his affidavit or testimony.

Also, what radio station reported on the Tippit shooting within 15 minutes of it supposedly happening?

Which radio station, you ask? Well, Likely  one of the stations reporting the assassination. You'll have to find out if Brewer was switching stations. Anyway, how does that prove Oswald innocent?

You'll have to point out in his affidavit and WC testimony where the thrust of what Brewer swore to changed anything about his observation of a fellow who appeared nervous* to him, apparently nervous-enough looking to cause him to follow down the street.

*a word he used in his affidavit
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 15, 2018, 07:05:04 AM
Just look at the massive angry crowd that gathered within minutes at the Texas Theater, the hatred, fear and desperation were at fever pitch and in this terror filled environment Brewer and Postal who were accustomed to dealing with the public saw Oswald avoiding the Police so both just acted as they should and put their community first and put their own safety second.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/a8/2e/49a82eac96def1d59a637b14f49172fb.jpg)

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 15, 2018, 08:00:52 AM
Thanks Bill, you're already miles ahead of TrollGee.  He just fell off of a pier.

Can you point me to where Brewer said he thought that maybe the 'guy' might be the one they were looking for?  I don't see anything like that in his affidavit or testimony.

Also, what radio station reported on the Tippit shooting within 15 minutes of it supposedly happening?

Searching around on the internet last night I saw a reference to KLIF having broadcast the news of a Dallas police officer having been shot at 1.33pm. I tried to find more on this and found that you can actually listen to the radio broadcasts from KLIF which are recorded and preserved so listened to them from just before the news of the shots in Dealey Plaza came through. Quite interesting and moving really. I haven't worked out from them when the news of the Tippit shooting was broadcast yet - but I also found n article about Tippit's family and how they heard the news and it said that heard reports of the shooting of a Dallas Policeman only minutes after it had happened. Sadly apparently the name of the officer was later broadcast before the family had been informed.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on September 15, 2018, 04:15:52 PM
Which radio station? Likely one of the stations reporting the assassination. You'll have to find out if Brewer was switching stations. Anyway, how does that prove Oswald innocent?

You'll have to point out in his affidavit and WC testimony where the brunt of what Brewer swore to changed anything about his observance of a fellow that appeared nervous* to him, apparently enough to follow him down the street.

*a word he used in his affidavit
The President is shot - maybe, Oswald didn't know for sure since he was told "maybe they missed" - right outside the building where he worked.

And about an hour later Oswald, showing no interest in what happened, decides to go see a movie.

This was a profoundly political person; this was not someone not interested in politics. He was a fan of Castro's, he defected to the USSR, he discussed and read politics regularly. But he's going to a movie when the entire world is perhaps turning upside down? Is JFK dead? Was the shooter or shooters caught? Who were they? That fascist Walker? What's going on? Oswald doesn't care? Not a bit?

How can anyone believe this?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 10:32:40 PM
Rob, can you point out when and where Brewer said he told Postal about Tippit's murder?

JohnM

That's the point. When and where did he tell her? Well?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 15, 2018, 10:34:56 PM
Just look at the massive angry crowd that gathered within minutes at the Texas Theater, the hatred, fear and desperation were at fever pitch and in this terror filled environment Brewer and Postal who were accustomed to dealing with the public saw Oswald avoiding the Police so both just acted as they should and put their community first and put their own safety second.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/49/a8/2e/49a82eac96def1d59a637b14f49172fb.jpg)

JohnM

Why was it massive and angry when NO one could have knowledge that the man inside killed JDT or JFK?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 16, 2018, 06:20:31 AM
This doesn't wash.  She notices him enough to see a "panicked look on his face" and to think he's "running from the police" (even though he wasn't running), and then decides to just turn around and look the other way?  Then Brewer immediately comes up to her and asks about the man and she doesn't know what man or whether or not he bought a ticket?  I think she just didn't want to admit that she supposedly let a guy sneak by her without noticing him at all.
The "panicked look on his face" is what she noticed when she initially saw him. "Running from police" came after Brewer followed the guy into the theater and had her call police. The difference is the extra information provided by Brewer (in both word and deed) and in the extra time that allowed her to put two and two together. Before Brewer showed up, he was just some other guy on the street, albeit some dude with that fashionable panicked look to him. The assassination happened a  three miles away, and she didn't know yet about the Tippit killing. Why would she automatically be expected to immediately assume that he was important in any way?

In her affidavit, she saw that she responded to Brewer's initial question with a "No." In her commission testimony, it's ""No; by golly, he didn't." Brewer told the commission she said "no, she hadn't." The only different account is in Brewer's affidavit: "I asked the girl if she had sold the man a ticket and she replied that she did not think so, that she had been listening to the radio and did not remember." This answer implies that she knew who he was talking about, ergo she'd seen "that man"

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 16, 2018, 06:39:21 AM
If your explanation is accurate, and that is doubtful, then she should have known that she did NOT sell a ticket to him, but she wasn't sure. How come?
Maybe she thought he might have been a customer who'd bought a ticket earlier but either left the theatre and came back, but just didn't pay enough attention to patrons to know for sure.

Why didn't she find him suspicious like Brewer allegedly did? Why was staring more suspicious behavior than ducking?

If all those excuses were true, why did they bother to look for him then?
Postal and Brewer were two different people. There's no good reason to assume that they would automatically read the same thing into Oswald's behavior.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 16, 2018, 07:24:01 AM
This doesn't wash.  She notices him enough to see a "panicked look on his face" and to think he's "running from the police" (even though he wasn't running), and then decides to just turn around and look the other way?  Then Brewer immediately comes up to her and asks about the man and she doesn't know what man or whether or not he bought a ticket?  I think she just didn't want to admit that she supposedly let a guy sneak by her without noticing him at all.

"running from the police" (even though he wasn't running)
>>> Which is an indication that she possibly meant 'running' in an on-the-run-from-police' sense
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 16, 2018, 02:43:14 PM
Saint Patsy didn't purchase a movie ticket.

Postal's box office booth was flush with the storefronts.

Brewer saw Saint Patsy approach the theater and then disappear from view.

Had Saint Patsy stopped in front of the booth to purchase a ticket, Brewer would have been able to see the transaction.

Additionally, the box office only opened at 1:15 PM and Postal had sold a total of 14 tickets, mostly to patrons that were waiting for the office to open for the first show.

The cost of a ticket was 90 cents, so if Saint Patsy had purchased a ticket, he'd have to count out 90 cents or fork over a dollar and get his 10 cents change. A transaction Brewer would have undoubtedly noticed.

Tippit's murderer wasn't pausing to buy a ticket.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 16, 2018, 04:42:43 PM
Searching around on the internet last night I saw a reference to KLIF having broadcast the news of a Dallas police officer having been shot at 1.33pm. I tried to find more on this and found that you can actually listen to the radio broadcasts from KLIF which are recorded and preserved so listened to them from just before the news of the shots in Dealey Plaza came through. Quite interesting and moving really. I haven't worked out from them when the news of the Tippit shooting was broadcast yet - but I also found n article about Tippit's family and how they heard the news and it said that heard reports of the shooting of a Dallas Policeman only minutes after it had happened. Sadly apparently the name of the officer was later broadcast before the family had been informed.

A fine bit of sleuthing, I must say.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 16, 2018, 08:46:18 PM
Maybe she thought he might have been a customer who'd bought a ticket earlier but either left the theatre and came back, but just didn't pay enough attention to patrons to know for sure.

So you rely on assumption. Good of you to admit this.

Quote
Postal and Brewer were two different people. There's no good reason to assume that they would automatically read the same thing into Oswald's behavior.

So you think that Brewer wouldn't have shared why he thought LHO's behavior was suspicious? Please. "Hey Julia. I saw a guy staring near my shoe store window so I followed him. Have you seen him? Did he buy a ticket?"

Sure.
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 16, 2018, 08:55:38 PM
For those who haven't figured it out, the Oswald Brewer saw was an Oswald double who deliberately drew Brewer's attention by acting overtly nervous and looking around with the intention of getting Brewer to follow him to the Texas theater where he was setting-up Butch Burrough's Oswald...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Duncan MacRae on September 16, 2018, 09:04:38 PM
For those who haven't figured it out, the Oswald Brewer saw was an Oswald double who deliberately drew Brewer's attention by acting overtly nervous and looking around with the intention of getting Brewer to follow him to the Texas theater where he was setting-up Butch Burrough's Oswald...

(https://thepreachersword.files.wordpress.com/2017/07/gullible.jpg)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 16, 2018, 09:30:07 PM
A fine bit of sleuthing, I must say.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mark Connors on September 16, 2018, 11:55:19 PM
For those who haven't figured it out, the Oswald Brewer saw was an Oswald double who deliberately drew Brewer's attention by acting overtly nervous and looking around with the intention of getting Brewer to follow him to the Texas theater where he was setting-up Butch Burrough's Oswald...

lol

Let me guess, you are a 9-11 truther too, right?

 ::)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 01:20:27 AM

Mr. BELIN - Who was Burroughs?
Mr. BREWER - He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and hadn't seen anybody.
And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits were and we would check the exits. And he asked me why.
I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious.


Um, he looked like suspicious -- LOL

Because he was staring. LOL. My point is Postal didn't learn about JDT's murder UNTIL the police had arrived. How is that possible if Brewer had talked with her about this man?

So far no LNer has explained this to me.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 01:23:01 AM
lol

Let me guess, you are a 9-11 truther too, right?

 ::)

9/11 was a conspiracy.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Jerry Freeman on September 17, 2018, 04:58:23 AM
9/11 was a conspiracy.
Of course it was [though I don't quite know what a 'truther' is] :-\
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 07:01:02 AM
9/11 was a conspiracy.

It certainly was a conspiracy.

A group of evil men conspired to hijack aeroplanes and fly them into prominent landmarks. They were pretty successful with two of their plans.  There endeth the conspiracy.

NOTE: Apologies for getting distracted from the OP. I shouldn't have responded to a thread hijacking.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 17, 2018, 08:22:15 AM

If Postal is in the box office right up until the suspect ducks in (but does not enter the theater) how did she miss the Tippit shooting on the radio that Brewer allegedly heard? Everyone believes the action is WEST of the theater.


Quote
how did she miss the Tippit shooting on the radio that Brewer allegedly heard?

Was there only one radio station in Dallas?

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 17, 2018, 10:29:43 AM
Worth investigating?

http://www.dfwretroplex.com/amlist.html

(https://i.postimg.cc/VLRsfzQD/1963_dallas_am_fm.jpg)
http://www.dfwradioarchives.info/1960s.htm

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 10:33:36 AM
She said she was listening to KLIF. They reported a police officer had been shot, but said it was unconnected to the Presidents assassination and initially didn't give the officers name.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 17, 2018, 10:40:46 AM
She said she was listening to KLIF. They reported a police officer had been shot, but said it was unconnected to the Presidents assassination and initially didn't give the officers name.

 Thumb1:

Mr. BALL. You didn't hear that?
Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came out and said that he was officially dead.


JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 10:43:12 AM
Thumb1:

Mr. BALL. You didn't hear that?
Mrs. POSTAL. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came out and said that he was officially dead.


JohnM

Yep.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 10:56:29 AM
Cool. Lucky pick by Brewer and his buddies.

Mr. BREWER - We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.


Worth looking into who his buddies were?

I think that's a great idea. How about you do that for the team and report back with the result?  ;D

Here's a place to start

http://allthingswildlyconsidered.blogspot.com/2013/11/johnny-brewer-humble-hero-of.html

which has a link to Brewer's official site

https://johnnycalvinbrewer.wordpress.com/category/warren-commission/

I've no idea if he's still alive.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 11:01:41 AM
Cool. Lucky pick by Brewer and his buddies.

Mr. BREWER - We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.


Worth looking into who his buddies were?

If you've got the free time and nothing else to do, go for it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 01:14:15 PM
The manager leaves his shop unattended and gets promoted?

Suspicious huh.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 01:49:03 PM
Mr. BELIN - What is the address of that shop in Dallas?
Mr. BREWER - 213 West Jefferson.
Mr. BELIN - They made you the manager of that shop?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - How long have you been manager?
Mr. BREWER - Since August of 1962.
Mr. BELIN - From August 1962 on?
Mr. BREWER - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Until the present time?
Mr. BREWER - Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store.
Mr. BELIN - Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d?
Mr. BREWER - Second.
Mr. BELIN - You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store?
Mr. BREWER - Yes, sir.
It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were firing me, but it turned out they weren't.
Mr. BELIN - Did he call you in yesterday to tell you?
Mr. BREWER - Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit, that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would this be considered a promotion?
Mr. BREWER - A better store, more volume, and make more money. It would be considered a promotion.


The manager leaves his shop unattended and gets promoted?

Was it a reward for saying the correct (in the eyes of the WC) things? I wonder what he was doing that he was expecting to be fired?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 01:50:07 PM
Suspicious huh.

As suspicious as staring.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 01:54:47 PM
If you both think it's a great idea today how do you explain it wasn't done in '64 when everyone was still alive?

So that's a "No" to doing some research?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 01:58:05 PM
If you both think it's a great idea today how do you explain it wasn't done in '64 when everyone was still alive?

Do you think its a great idea?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 01:59:30 PM

The manager leaves his shop unattended and gets promoted?

He was a good citizen. He probably helped prevent more murders by Oswald's hands. I'd imagine Brewer was a local hero who improved sales in the shoe shop. Of course his employer looked after him. It would have been bad for business to not do so.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 02:00:52 PM
He received an award a few years back I believe. Probably an award for saying what the WC wanted him to say though ....
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 02:07:33 PM
Was it a reward for saying the correct (in the eyes of the WC) things? I wonder what he was doing that he was expecting to be fired?

So now the owner of the chain of shoe stores is in on the conspiracy?
When the conspirators held their 10th year anniversary get together back in '73 they must have hired a venue like Shea Stadium so everyone in on the plot could attend.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 02:17:14 PM
If you both think it's a great idea today how do you explain it wasn't done in '64 when everyone was still alive?

No idea.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 02:18:48 PM
He received an award a few years back I believe. Probably an award for saying what the WC wanted him to say though ....

Probably. Just like he received a promotion when he himself thought that he should be fired.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 02:23:09 PM
Why are you deflecting my question?

Not deflecting. Just like you I don't know the answer either. Let us know if you come up with something.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 02:47:13 PM
So why the interest (as opposed to BELIN's lack of interest)?

My interest on a scale of 0 to 10 is hovering around around 0.3
I am curious if there was another employee in the store as his use of "We" is interesting but not in a significant way. I'm guessing we'll never know unless Brewer is still alive and can answer for himself.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 02:55:44 PM
So why is it a great idea today?
Nicholas can answer for himself but IMO the investigation has become so huge that there's a push to keep pumping it up more and more. It's a jigsaw that we thought was a 1000 pieces but now realise it's actually 5000+ pieces and we've not put all of them in place. The significant pieces have been found and added to the jigsaw. We can now see what is depicted and what's important. The pieces yet to be placed are like bits of blue sky in the top RH and LH corners which don't actually add to our overall understanding and appreciation of what's depicted but are pleasing to place as an exercise in squeezing every last piece into the picture.
This thing will go on long after we are gone and still people will be seeing missing pieces of blue sky and will hunt them down like their life depends on it.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 03:31:12 PM
Quite the contrary.

Uncorroborated testimony are notoriously weak evidence. That's why any investigator looks for corroboration... or contradictions. BELIN was following the preferred MO in the Tippit case: Don't rock the boat! All the WC wanted to take home from the Tippit case was "Oswald the desperate cop killer".

It's evident that if Oswald entered the theater prior Tippit being shot he didn't do it. Witnesses in the shoe store, staff or whoever it was, might have compromised Brewer's story and ultimately busted the WC timeline. Big trouble ahead.

Well see if you can get in touch with Johnny Brewer and see how his memory is holding up. You do realise that it was Oswald that Brewer saw in the entry to his store and that Brewer had heard about the shooting on 10th and Patton minutes before.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 03:33:04 PM
So why is it a great idea today?

Your question doesn't follow from my post, and I never described it as a great idea, that was you. You seemed keen to do so so I encouraged you to do it if you wanted and had the time.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 03:36:56 PM
... I never described it as a great idea, that was you ...

I was going to make the same point but let it pass.  Walk:
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 03:40:13 PM
Quite the contrary.

Uncorroborated testimony are notoriously weak evidence. That's why any investigator looks for corroboration... or contradictions. BELIN was following the preferred MO in the Tippit case: Don't rock the boat! All the WC wanted to take home from the Tippit case was "Oswald the desperate cop killer".

It's evident that if Oswald entered the theater prior Tippit being shot he didn't do it. Witnesses in the shoe store, staff or whoever it was, might have compromised Brewer's story and ultimately busted the WC timeline. Big trouble ahead.

Or confirmed it. What would you say then? If this was a fabrication as part of a conspiracy why not get someone else to confirm it? There doesn't seem to be any limit to the number of people included in the conspiracy so why not add in a few customers?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 03:52:32 PM
For the record, the great idea came from this guy...

That should settle any confusion as to where it originated from.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 03:54:40 PM
For the record, the great idea came from this guy...

That should settle any confusion as to where it originated from.

Ha ha. I guess my factitious comment caught me out! I wasn't being serious but there you go.

So, any response to my question?:
You do realise that it was Oswald that Brewer saw in the entry to his store and that Brewer had heard about the shooting on 10th and Patton minutes before?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 04:03:46 PM
For the record, the great idea came from this guy...

That should settle any confusion as to where it originated from.

These guys are like Sgt. Schultz. They see nothing. Hear nothing. And certainly question nothing.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2018, 04:04:55 PM
So now the owner of the chain of shoe stores is in on the conspiracy?
When the conspirators held their 10th year anniversary get together back in '73 they must have hired a venue like Shea Stadium so everyone in on the plot could attend.

Remember that it is a "strawman" argument to suggest that anyone here is alleging that Brewer's actions were nefarious or that he was part of a conspiracy.  CTers are apparently just questioning his motives to pass the time without meaning to imply anything that would require them to actually provide any proof or a narrative that makes sense of how a random shoe salesman in Dallas get recruited into the plot and how they somehow ensure that Oswald walks past his store and into TT as part of the frame up scenario.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 04:05:12 PM
From the Brewer website:

This website is being administered on behalf of Johnny Calvin Brewer, who asks that you please NOT contact him in order to discuss assassination theories and / or engage in conversation about the events of November 22nd, 1963. Subsequently his email is being kept confidential and private.


Too bad the WC missed the opportunity to do their job.

Not an answer to my post.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 04:06:45 PM
From the Brewer website:

This website is being administered on behalf of Johnny Calvin Brewer, who asks that you please NOT contact him in order to discuss assassination theories and / or engage in conversation about the events of November 22nd, 1963. Subsequently his email is being kept confidential and private.


Too bad the WC missed the opportunity to do their job.
A serious researcher won't take no for an answer.
Kick his door down and tell him he needs to come clean.  ;)

Maybe what the WC failed to establish was that "We" meant Brewer and his 16 year old assistant. Now that would be riveting wouldn't it?
Only Johnny can shed light on this one.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 04:12:27 PM
Then please clarify...

I was asking what you would say if other people came forward to support what Brewer said and to confirm the WC timeline. I also asked why, if it is being suggested that Brewer was saying what the WC wanted, why weren't more people 'encouraged' to provide supporting testimony.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 04:31:48 PM
I was asking what you would say if other people came forward to support what Brewer said and to confirm the WC timeline. I also asked why, if it is being suggested that Brewer was saying what the WC wanted, why weren't more people 'encouraged' to provide supporting testimony.

There were. This comment by you clearly shows that you need to learn the evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 17, 2018, 04:50:31 PM
I perfectly realize that this part of his testimony is uncorroborated.

Did you miss this part?

Mr. BREWER - Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them aside, and another officer was taking their names and addresses of all the people that were in the theatre.


How many of those confirmed Oswald's time of entry?

They were watching a movie FFS. Why would they notice another movie goer then check their wrist watches?
Man,  it didn't take long for this thread to become absurd.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2018, 05:07:23 PM
They were watching a movie FFS. Why would they notice another movie goer then check their wrist watches?
Man,  it didn't take long for this thread to become absurd.

And if they had, CTers would just imply there was something sinister about this. Or they would note that a witness estimated Oswald's age as approximately 30 or a few pounds heavier than he was bringing into question their identification of him.   It's an endless circle of lunacy.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 17, 2018, 05:11:22 PM
I was going to make the same point but let it pass.  Walk:

One lets a lot of CTer comments pass. I file them here:


Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 17, 2018, 05:13:48 PM
Every time Postal was asked if she sold Oswald a ticket she burst into tears and ran from the room...She never answered that question...These people were good honest boy scout Texas people and did not lie to the authorities easily...Postal could not answer the question because she could not bring herself to lie...She sold one Oswald a ticket shortly after 1pm and was forced to bury it like many other witnesses...Proof of this is in the Stringfellow report of the arrest...Bernard Haire saw this second Oswald escorted by the Dallas PD out the back door of the theater and TF White saw him in Mather's car shortly after...Most of the "evidence" people know this already...All covered by Jim Douglass in 'JFK And The Unspeakable'...When you realize this set-up then you realize the Oswald double that ran in to the theater baited Brewer and got his attention deliberately...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 17, 2018, 05:22:27 PM
Every time Postal was asked if she sold Oswald a ticket she burst into tears and ran from the room...She never answered that question...These people were good honest boy scout Texas people and did not lie to the authorities easily...Postal could not answer the question because she could not bring herself to lie...She sold one Oswald a ticket shortly after 1pm and was forced to bury it like many other witnesses...Proof of this is in the Stringfellow report of the arrest...Bernard Haire saw this second Oswald escorted by the Dallas PD out the back door of the theater and TF White saw him in Mather's car shortly after...Most of the "evidence" people know this already...All covered by Jim Douglass in 'JFK And The Unspeakable'...When you realize this set-up then you realize the Oswald double that ran in to the theater baited Brewer and got his attention deliberately...

@Newbies

Unspeakably Awful
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2009/12/unspeakably-awful.html
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 17, 2018, 05:40:36 PM
Non-denial denial from an uncredible propaganda source...What a liar McAdams is...All one has to do is read DiEugenio to see all the evidence McAdams ignores...Postal couldn't bring herself to lie because she sold Burrough's 1pm Oswald a ticket and was told to shut-up by the police who were murdering witnesses...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 06:03:20 PM
I was asking what you would say if other people came forward to support what Brewer said and to confirm the WC timeline

50+ years later I would be ultra skeptical although level of detail would mean something.

I also asked why, if it is being suggested that Brewer was saying what the WC wanted, why weren't more people 'encouraged' to provide supporting testimony.

As suggested you need to look closer at the evidence, the "Tippit witnesses" is a great start.

You may also ask yourself why the hero was waiting in line to until December 6 to deliver his affidavit.

What do the Tippit witnesses have to do with people who could support Brewer's description of how the person outside his store acted, what he looked like and what Brewer did in response? That is what I was referring to, not the other reports, many have which I have read. If I have missed evidence given by people who also saw Oswald outside the shoe shop please point it out to me as would find it interesting.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 17, 2018, 06:29:12 PM
@Newbies

Unspeakably Awful
http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2009/12/unspeakably-awful.html

I agree entirely. McAdams' critique of the Douglass book is indeed unspeakably awful. Look at the readers responses to the article, lower down.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 06:43:08 PM
OK, I read your request in a broader perspective not specific to the (alleged) shoe store sighting.

Negative on anyone else than Brewer.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

So for those questioning Brewer's account, are you suggesting Brewer was part of a conspiracy? If so, what weren't others encouraged to give supporting evidence? If that is not what is being suggested, what is?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 17, 2018, 07:09:48 PM
Every time Postal was asked if she sold Oswald a ticket she burst into tears and ran from the room...She never answered that question...These people were good honest boy scout Texas people and did not lie to the authorities easily...Postal could not answer the question because she could not bring herself to lie...She sold one Oswald a ticket shortly after 1pm and was forced to bury it like many other witnesses...Proof of this is in the Stringfellow report of the arrest...Bernard Haire saw this second Oswald escorted by the Dallas PD out the back door of the theater and TF White saw him in Mather's car shortly after...Most of the "evidence" people know this already...All covered by Jim Douglass in 'JFK And The Unspeakable'...When you realize this set-up then you realize the Oswald double that ran in to the theater baited Brewer and got his attention deliberately...

Which Oswald murdered Tippit ? 
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 17, 2018, 07:15:19 PM
The police were alerted to Oswald by his running in without paying...A police dispatch saying Oswald was in the balcony is proof of the second Oswald because we all know the other witnessing detailed Oswald being on the main floor...The Oswald who Brewer saw run in ducked up to the balcony and the Stringfellow reports had him arrested there...Did Postal and Brewer ask Burroughs where the Oswald who ran in went and Burroughs told them the balcony and they then relayed it to the police?
 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 17, 2018, 07:27:43 PM
I asked you which Oswald murdered Tippit.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 08:18:43 PM
The irony is that you also rarely post evidence and instead rely on your memory where everything is dishonestly stripped back to its barest essentials and numbers like 3 magically become 2.

Nope.  3 numbers never magically became 2.  However two spent shells did magically become three.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2018, 08:19:33 PM
The police were alerted to Oswald by his running in without paying...A police dispatch saying Oswald was in the balcony is proof of the second Oswald because we all know the other witnessing detailed Oswald being on the main floor...The Oswald who Brewer saw run in ducked up to the balcony and the Stringfellow reports had him arrested there...Did Postal and Brewer ask Burroughs where the Oswald who ran in went and Burroughs told them the balcony and they then relayed it to the police?

Postal's testimony provides some insight on the balcony.  Does anyone have a map of the balcony to confirm where the stairs were?  Were there more than one set of stairs to the balcony?  It seems as though what she is suggesting is that Oswald could have gone up stairs to the balcony that are located immediately upon entry.  And then back down some stairs to gain access to the lower section where he was arrested without passing by Burroughs.  This appears to be both her and Burroughs' explanation for why he didn't see Oswald pass by. 

Mrs. POSTAL. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right on up in the balcony.
Mr. BALL. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him. did you?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people do then get by him.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mrs. POSTAL. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, "Now, Butch, if you saw him come in----" says, "Well, I saw him going out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch would have seen him.
Mr. BALL. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second row from the----
Mrs. POSTAL. Third.
Mr. BALL. Third?
Mrs. POSTAL. Three rows down, five seats over.
Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the balcony down there?
Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and fight straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.

Mr. BALL. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's seeing him?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.
Mr. BALL. And he could go in?
Mrs. POSTAL. He could have gotten in.


Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir----first, I think he was up there.
Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.

Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door----yes. Yes, it goes straight----you come through the door and go straight----you go upstairs to the balcony.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 08:20:53 PM
Remember that it is a "strawman" argument to suggest that anyone here is alleging that Brewer's actions were nefarious or that he was part of a conspiracy.  CTers are apparently just questioning his motives to pass the time without meaning to imply anything that would require them to actually provide any proof or a narrative that makes sense of how a random shoe salesman in Dallas get recruited into the plot and how they somehow ensure that Oswald walks past his store and into TT as part of the frame up scenario.

The "strawman" is your invention. No one said that Brewer's bosses were involved in the conspiracy. No one.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 08:21:32 PM
Which radio station, you ask? Well, Likely  one of the stations reporting the assassination. You'll have to find out if Brewer was switching stations.

Thanks, that was useful.  In fact, nobody has presented any evidence that any radio station said that the police were looking for a cop killer.
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 17, 2018, 08:28:24 PM
That's kind of disingenuous because the record shows witnesses to Oswald going from seat to seat and taking way too long to be the same Oswald that ran up to the balcony...It was Burroughs who sold the bottom floor Oswald popcorn etc...It is ridiculous that they would ignore that there simply wasn't any time for the balcony Oswald to sneak downstairs and do all those things because the cops came shortly after...

The Stringfellow report says Oswald was arrested in the balcony...Burroughs had to see this Oswald escorted down from the balcony...There is a statement that a cop shouted from the window in the balcony to a cop outside that they had arrested Oswald...

Haire saw this second Oswald covertly snuck out the back door of the theater...

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 08:28:44 PM
Searching around on the internet last night I saw a reference to KLIF having broadcast the news of a Dallas police officer having been shot at 1.33pm. I tried to find more on this and found that you can actually listen to the radio broadcasts from KLIF which are recorded and preserved so listened to them from just before the news of the shots in Dealey Plaza came through.

I have, and they didn't.  We discussed this on the old forum.

https://archive.org/details/KennedyAssassination-Klif-amDallas-FridayNovember221963/01KennedyAssassination-KlifDallas-FridayNovember221963.mp3 (https://archive.org/details/KennedyAssassination-Klif-amDallas-FridayNovember221963/01KennedyAssassination-KlifDallas-FridayNovember221963.mp3)

Part 3 claims to start at 1:15 PM, and there is an announcement that a police officer was shot in Oak Cliff at about 18 minutes in.  However, at 3:26 in, the announcer says "president shot, expired at 1 PM, 48 minutes ago".  There are also several obvious edits during the course of that audio file, one for example at 8:14.

They also never mention the officer's name, or say anything about the police looking for a man who did it, or give any kind of description.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 08:41:18 PM
You may want to attack the problem from a different angle... from the police tapes:

    Dispatcher    10-4. We have information that a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson.         
     79    10-4.         
     Dispatcher    Supposed to be hiding in the balcony.         
     79    10-4.         
     85 (Ptm. R.W. Walker)    85 out that way.         
     Dispatcher    10-4.

followed by:

     550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill)    550/2.         
     Dispatcher    550/2.         
     550/2    Do you have any additional information on this Oak Cliff suspect?         
     492 (CID)    492, out Texas Theater.         
     Dispatcher    10-4.         
     Dispatcher    They think he is at Texas Theater, 550/2.         
     508 (Crime Lab/ W.E. Barnes)    508.         
          . . . meet (?)         
     Dispatcher    85 at Texas Theater, 550/2.         
     550/2 (Sgt. G.L. Hill)    10-4.         
     Dispatcher    In the balcony.

Who tracked the suspect to the balcony and furnished that information to the dispatcher?

This was discussed earlier. I think it came from the idea that that is where people (kids) who had sneaked in before had tended to go, prior experience. I don't see it as suspicious, do you?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 08:44:28 PM
Saint Patsy didn't purchase a movie ticket.

You don't know that.

Quote
Postal's box office booth was flush with the storefronts.

That's actually false.

Quote
Brewer saw Saint Patsy approach the theater and then disappear from view.

Brewer saw somebody (from behind about 50 yards away) approach the theater.

Quote
Had Saint Patsy stopped in front of the booth to purchase a ticket, Brewer would have been able to see the transaction.

Or that guy never went into the theater, or that guy already had a ticket, or that guy wasn't even Oswald.

Quote
Additionally, the box office only opened at 1:15 PM

That's a good trick, since War Is Hell started at 1:20.

Quote
and Postal had sold a total of 14 tickets, mostly to patrons that were waiting for the office to open for the first show.

That's also a good trick since Brewer saw 15-20 patrons in there.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2018, 08:53:59 PM
That's kind of disingenuous because the record shows witnesses to Oswald going from seat to seat and taking way too long to be the same Oswald that ran up to the balcony...It was Burroughs who sold the bottom floor Oswald popcorn etc...It is ridiculous that they would ignore that there simply wasn't any time for the balcony Oswald to sneak downstairs and do all those things because the cops came shortly after...

The Stringfellow report says Oswald was arrested in the balcony...Burroughs had to see this Oswald escorted down from the balcony...There is a statement that a cop shouted from the window in the balcony to a cop outside that they had arrested Oswald...

Haire saw this second Oswald covertly snuck out the back door of the theater...

There was plenty of time for Oswald to go up some balcony stairs and then down another set of stairs before entering the lower area.  I'm not saying he actually did that.  Postal and Burroughs apparently believed he did to explain why Burroughs did not see him but it is also entirely feasible that Oswald simply passed through while Burroughs was busy doing something else.  I don't see anything that precludes that from being the source of the balcony confusion.   The bottom line is that because Burroughs did not see him enter the theater that he and Postal both thought that Oswald was in the balcony area at some point for that reason.  And from that derives a lot of subsequent misinformation.   
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 17, 2018, 08:56:51 PM
Postal's testimony provides some insight on the balcony.  Does anyone have a map of the balcony to confirm where the stairs were?  Were there more than one set of stairs to the balcony? 

On the old forum someone once posted a photo taken from the inside of the theater looking out towards the street entrance.

If I recall correctly, the stairwell leading to the balcony was on the left not too far removed from the entrance.

The doorways to the ground level seats were on the right.

Not sure if there was more than one set of stairs leading to the balcony.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 09:07:09 PM
Cool. Lucky pick by Brewer and his buddies.

Mr. BREWER - We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.


Worth looking into who his buddies were?

The buddies were two unidentified "IBM men" who weren't customers but apparently just liked lounging around his shoe store  (as IBM men do) and I guess he wasn't too worried about abandoning his store with them in there.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 09:19:50 PM
The buddies were two unidentified "IBM men" who weren't customers but apparently just liked lounging around his shoe store  (as IBM men do) and I guess he wasn't too worried about abandoning his store with them in there.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page)

An interesting read. Thanks.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 17, 2018, 09:32:00 PM
I was asking what you would say if other people came forward to support what Brewer said and to confirm the WC timeline

50+ years later I would be ultra skeptical although level of detail would mean something.

I also asked why, if it is being suggested that Brewer was saying what the WC wanted, why weren't more people 'encouraged' to provide supporting testimony.

As suggested you need to look closer at the evidence, the "Tippit witnesses" is a great start.

You may also ask yourself why the hero was waiting in line to until December 6 to deliver his affidavit.

Tell us how many witnesses to Brewer's timeline would be needed to convince you that he was accurate. One would not be enough, I suspect. You lot would just call him a liar, anyway.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 09:41:13 PM
The buddies were two unidentified "IBM men" who weren't customers but apparently just liked lounging around his shoe store  (as IBM men do) and I guess he wasn't too worried about abandoning his store with them in there.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page)

Nothing about Brewer's story makes sense to me.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 17, 2018, 09:41:34 PM
Tell us how many witnesses to Brewer's timeline would be needed to convince you that he was accurate. One would not be enough, I suspect. You lot would just call him a liar, anyway.

LNers love this particular strawman.

I don't have any evidence, but if I did you wouldn't believe it anyway.  Therefore I'm right.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 17, 2018, 09:43:48 PM
Where specifically does it say the dispatcher broadcasts ideas?

Sorry, don't understand the question.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 17, 2018, 10:07:17 PM
You have one on your hand?

On my hand? Is English your first language?

Try
'in hand'
or 'on hand'

And try reading a page or more beyond John's Ferrell page link and discover that Brewr said something to the IBM-without-quotes gents about going to 'check'.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 17, 2018, 10:09:47 PM
On my hand? Is English your first language?

Try
'in hand'
or 'on hand'

And try reading a page or more beyond John's Ferrell page link and discover that Brewr said something to the IBM-without-quotes gents about going to 'check'.

If you know what he means, why don't you answer his question?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 17, 2018, 10:53:42 PM
We already know where misinformation usually originate from.

This is what your hero reported back to Postal:

Mr. BELIN - Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs?
Mr. BREWER - No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.
Mr. BELIN - Did you hear any noises there?
Mr. BREWER - When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him. But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.
Mr. BELIN - Julia Postal is the cashier?
Mr. BREWER - Yes; and she called the police, and we went----Butch went to the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood there until the police came.

Balcony double checked -- no cigar, but nice try.

Brewer said he "couldn't see anything upstairs."  That can mean it was too dark to tell whether Oswald was there or not.  All it means is that they didn't see Oswald anywhere - upstairs or down in a dark theater.  But they knew he had gone in and somehow got past Burroughs without being noticed. Postal knew from experience that it was possible to elude Burroughs in the foyer by heading up the balcony stairs upon entering the theatre because some kids had apparently done that in the past.  It seems entirely reasonable that this became the basis of the balcony report.     
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 12:00:21 AM
Brewer said he "couldn't see anything upstairs."  That can mean it was too dark to tell whether Oswald was there or not.  All it means is that they didn't see Oswald anywhere - upstairs or down in a dark theater.  But they knew he had gone in and somehow got past Burroughs without being noticed.

How did they know that he had gone in?  Neither Brewer, Postal, or Burroughs saw anyone go in at that time, and Brewer and Burroughs did not see him when they checked the balcony and the theater area.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 18, 2018, 12:16:08 AM
This was discussed earlier. I think it came from the idea that that is where people (kids) who had sneaked in before had tended to go, prior experience. I don't see it as suspicious, do you?

Still don't really get your question but am guessing you are asking where it says this. Yes?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 12:17:52 AM
Down the rabbit hole we go again. Why would they check the theatre for him if they did not have cause to believe Oswald had gone in?  LOL.  Postal explains it in her testimony.  She sees a man approach from the east.  He doesn't go by her on the west.  Brewer is following him.  If he doesn't go forward down the street and doesn't go backward toward Brewer, there is only one thing he could have done.  Go into the theatre.  How do we know this for certain?  Wait for it - because Oswald was found in the theatre.  Ergo he had to enter the theatre.   

Mrs. POSTAL. Well, I didn't actually----because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 18, 2018, 05:29:02 AM
How did they know that he had gone in?  Neither Brewer, Postal, or Burroughs saw anyone go in at that time, and Brewer and Burroughs did not see him when they checked the balcony and the theater area.

Brewer sees Saint Patsy acting suspiciously. Brewer decides to keep an eye on Saint Patsy. Brewer watches Saint Patsy walk in the direction of the TT. Brewer sees Saint Patsy reach the front of the theater and disappear.

Brewer isn't standing directly in front of the theater so I guess it's accurate that 55 years later a troll could state Brewer didn't see Saint Patsy enter the theater.

It's also accurate for the troll to state Brewer doesn't initially see Saint Patsy in the balcony or ground floor seating of the darkened theater.

Unfortunately for the troll, once the lights in the theater go on, Brewer most definitely does see the man that was acting strangely in front of his store - the same man that he trailed and watched walk to the front of the theater and disappear.

That man's name was Lee Harvey Oswald, AKA Saint Patsy.

Trolletti will continue to ask 'how do we know he entered the theater', not because the answer isn't obvious, but because that's what TROLLS do.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 18, 2018, 06:38:32 AM
The buddies were two unidentified "IBM men" who weren't customers but apparently just liked lounging around his shoe store  (as IBM men do) and I guess he wasn't too worried about abandoning his store with them in there.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page (https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=9&tab=page)

'(as IBM men do)'

(as IBM men did)
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=10&tab=page

[EXCERPT]:

(https://i.postimg.cc/QCVdxrMj/Brewer_except_IBM_men.png)
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 18, 2018, 07:41:57 AM
LNers love this particular strawman.

I don't have any evidence, but if I did you wouldn't believe it anyway.  Therefore I'm right.

Where did I say I was right about anything here...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 18, 2018, 10:06:41 AM
I don't care what somebody in the thread was guessing.

Focus: Who told dispatch the suspect was hiding in the balcony?

That's the interesting question. If not Postal somebody else called in or furnished that info.

Police reports confirm arriving officers (front) were directed, possibly by Postal, to the balcony.

BALL, in his continued line of failures, failed to settle that issue leaving the possibility open that Oswald was set up at the TT.

You've read this one by Detective Toney?

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark%3A/67531/metapth337070/

Who was the manager on duty?

Who was the young man on top of stairs?

Did suspect pass man on stairs and if so when?

Have you seen any of those (or similar) questions asked by the WC?

I'm sure if we could watch a film recording of all this it would all make sense but no such thing exists so we care relying on human recollections and statements in circumstances where they were on edge, where there was uncertainty and confusion and where communications were imperfect. I am not surprised that details don't always match and not everything is explained. This is true in most such situations in life and doesn't necessarily indicate anything suspicious, rather it demonstrates our human weaknesses and frailties.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 18, 2018, 10:39:17 AM
Nice essay --- I understand why you suddenly lost interest.

Lost interest in over analysing the minutiae without any feeling for how people act in difficult situations, searching for something which can be presented as suspicious, yes. Though actually, that's wrong as I never was particularly interested in that.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 18, 2018, 11:09:31 AM
Cases are solved by collecting and analyzing (repeatedly) minutiae so you're headed down the wrong track if you have an ambition of understanding what happened.

Cases are solved by professional investigators trained to recognise significant details but also to consider how people react and behave and not to get lost in minutiae, not by online amateur sleuths looking for things which they think supports their beliefs.

Looking at the minutiae is not on its own an issue but each detail should not be viewed in isolation but should be viewed with an over view and feeling for the bigger picture and how people act in difficult situations.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 18, 2018, 11:46:23 AM
Ian Griggs certainly proved your point by outperforming the million dollar Warren Commission 30 years after the fact.

The more skilled online amateurs continue to expose the lies of the WC is that why you stay online?

The WC was flawed and there were clearly attempts to cover things up. That doesn't mean necessarily that there was a conspiracy before the event, nor that the overall conclusion of the WC, that LHO acted alone, is wrong.

Quote
Tired Nutter straw man. Who claimed minutia should be viewed in isolation?

I judge from what I see and read on here and elsewhere.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 01:51:20 PM
I don't care what somebody in the thread was guessing.

Focus: Who told dispatch the suspect was hiding in the balcony?

That's the interesting question. If not Postal somebody else called in or furnished that info.

Police reports confirm arriving officers (front) were directed, possibly by Postal, to the balcony.

BALL, in his continued line of failures, failed to settle that issue leaving the possibility open that Oswald was set up at the TT.

You've read this one by Detective Toney?

https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark%3A/67531/metapth337070/

Who was the manager on duty?

Who was the young man on top of stairs?

Did suspect pass man on stairs and if so when?

Have you seen any of those (or similar) questions asked by the WC?

We know Postal called the police.  We know she thought the man was in the balcony because he had not been seen by Burroughs in the lobby and she knew from past experience that a way to avoid Burroughs was to head directly up the stairs upon entering the TT to the balcony.  She made a logical inference that may or may not have been correct.  Oswald very well could have gone up to the balcony and cut across to avoid the lobby and Burroughs.  So Postal is the obvious source of the balcony report.   
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 01:57:09 PM
Brewer said he "couldn't see anything upstairs."  That can mean it was too dark to tell whether Oswald was there or not.  All it means is that they didn't see Oswald anywhere - upstairs or down in a dark theater.  But they knew he had gone in and somehow got past Burroughs without being noticed. Postal knew from experience that it was possible to elude Burroughs in the foyer by heading up the balcony stairs upon entering the theatre because some kids had apparently done that in the past.  It seems entirely reasonable that this became the basis of the balcony report.   

If only you had evidence for your story.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 02:03:18 PM
If only you had evidence for your story.

It's in her testimony.  Clear as day.  She thought the man had gone to the balcony because Burroughs did not see him pass through the lobby.  Burroughs came to the same conclusion as he confirmed in his testimony.  Postal called the police.  The police received a report that the man was in the balcony.  2+2=4.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 02:07:00 PM
Cases are solved by professional investigators trained to recognise significant details but also to consider how people react and behave and not to get lost in minutiae, not by online amateur sleuths looking for things which they think supports their beliefs.

Looking at the minutiae is not on its own an issue but each detail should not be viewed in isolation but should be viewed with an over view and feeling for the bigger picture and how people act in difficult situations.

This is your fancy way of saying that you have no answers or supporting evidence.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 02:09:39 PM
The WC was flawed and there were clearly attempts to cover things up. That doesn't mean necessarily that there was a conspiracy before the event, nor that the overall conclusion of the WC, that LHO acted alone, is wrong.

I judge from what I see and read on here and elsewhere.

Covering things up equals conspiracy. If it happened the way the WC claimed then there would have been no need to cover anything up.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 02:12:12 PM
We know Postal called the police.  We know she thought the man was in the balcony because he had not been seen by Burroughs in the lobby and she knew from past experience that a way to avoid Burroughs was to head directly up the stairs upon entering the TT to the balcony.  She made a logical inference that may or may not have been correct.  Oswald very well could have gone up to the balcony and cut across to avoid the lobby and Burroughs.  So Postal is the obvious source of the balcony report.

So what made him a suspect? Supposedly sneaking into a theater?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 02:14:27 PM
It's in her testimony.  Clear as day.  She thought the man had gone to the balcony because Burroughs did not see him pass through the lobby.  Burroughs came to the same conclusion as he confirmed in his testimony.  Postal called the police.  The police received a report that the man was in the balcony.  2+2=4.

Except for  -- what part of this tale made him a "suspect?"
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Ray Mitcham on September 18, 2018, 02:15:50 PM
Julia Postal said that Oswald had a panicked look on his face "Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in" as he passed her yet  she didn't see him go past her.
"Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you?
Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. He had come from east going west. "

If she didn't see him go past her, how could she see he had a panicked look on his face?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 02:30:08 PM
Julia Postal said that Oswald had a panicked look on his face "Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in" as he passed her yet  she didn't see him go past her.
"Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you?
Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. He had come from east going west. "

If she didn't see him go past her, how could she see he had a panicked look on his face?

You are mixing apples and oranges.  She didn't see Oswald actually enter the theatre but she did see Oswald duck into the area in front of the theatre.

Mrs. POSTAL. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, "Some thing is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about----some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.
Mr. BALL. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre?
Mrs. POSTAL. Not that I know of, huh-uh.
Mr. BALL. A police car had gone by just before this?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes, sir; going west.
Mr. BALL. Its siren on?
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; full blast.
Mr. BALL. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that you were----
Mrs. POSTAL. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and----I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.

Mr. BALL. Yes; I have seen the theatre.
Mrs. POSTAL. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.
Mr. BALL. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner----
Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 02:37:31 PM
Except for  -- what part of this tale made him a "suspect?"

So we can agree that Postal was the source of the balcony report before moving on to something that has been discussed a million times already?  Postal knew the president had been assassinated a short distance away.  Police cars are flying up and down the road right in front of her.  A man is observed by her and Brewer appearing to hide from the police by ducking away from the street whenever a police car goes by.  He enters her theatre without buying a ticket (a crime).  She simply reports a person acting suspiciously under the totality of circumstances.  She has no idea whether this is the person the police are looking for or not.  Just that he is behaving like someone trying to hide from the police.  Which, of course, was exactly what he was doing.  There is no great mystery here.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 18, 2018, 02:51:40 PM
Julia Postal said that Oswald had a panicked look on his face "Mrs. POSTAL. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in" as he passed her yet  she didn't see him go past her.
"Mr. BALL. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?
Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You hadn't seen him go by you?
Mrs. POSTAL. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. He had come from east going west. "

If she didn't see him go past her, how could she see he had a panicked look on his face?

Was she simply repeating what Brewer had said to her?
For example PERSON 1 might be at an early morning session at the racetrack and witness a horse called Patsy pull up sore. PERSON 1 mentions it to PERSON 2 who wasn't at the track that day at all. Later that day PERSON 2 in turn tells others that Patsy pulled up sore at the track. It would be easy for others to assume incorrectly that PERSON 2 had witnessed the track session. In that scenario PERSON 2 is not being deceptive. They simply weren't using precise language to describe the event.
Postal was present as Oswald slipped into the theater. She did catch a glimpse of him and Brewer no doubt provided details of his observations back at the shoe store. It does make sense.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 03:04:53 PM
So we can agree that Postal was the source of the balcony report before moving on to something that has been discussed a million times already?  Postal knew the president had been assassinated a short distance away.  Police cars are flying up and down the road right in front of her.  A man is observed by her and Brewer appearing to hide from the police by ducking away from the street whenever a police car goes by.  He enters her theatre without buying a ticket (a crime).  She simply reports a person acting suspiciously under the totality of circumstances.  She has no idea whether this is the person the police are looking for or not.  Just that he is behaving like someone trying to hide from the police.  Which, of course, was exactly what he was doing.  There is no great mystery here.

No, we can't. The dispatcher logs EVERY call, thus, it should be easy to show who did call, but you can't. Why is that?

4 miles is NOT a short distance. Neither one of them were trained or qualified to judge what was suspicious behavior. Furthermore, as we have seen in this thread there is serious doubt that either of them even saw the man as claimed.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 18, 2018, 03:14:35 PM
4 miles is NOT a short distance.

It is in a country the size of the USA. It's all relative.

Neither one of them were trained or qualified to judge what was suspicious behavior.

So only those with formal training in body language and psychology should be called as eye witnesses? Madness.

Furthermore , as we have seen in this thread there is serious doubt that either of them even saw the man as claimed.

There is absolutely no doubt that Oswald was seen at the shoe store and in the theater.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 03:15:33 PM
False premise.

Postal did not interact with Burroughs, she sent in Brewer. You don't know what she inferred based on Brewer's feedback.

What we know is, based on the evidence, that the WC failed to establish the source for "hiding in balcony" by dispatch.

Nonsense.  She sent Brewer in to search with Burroughs.  When Brewer came back he told Postal that neither of them had seen Oswald.  As a result, Postal knew that Burroughs had not seen Oswald enter the theatre.  She didn't have to "interact" with Burroughs.   Her assumption, based upon prior experience as confirmed in her testimony, is that the man avoided Burroughs only by heading straight up to the balcony.  She then called the police.  She believed the man had gone to the balcony.  She is the source of that report.  2+2=4 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 03:23:22 PM
No, we can't. The dispatcher logs EVERY call, thus, it should be easy to show who did call, but you can't. Why is that?

4 miles is NOT a short distance. Neither one of them were trained or qualified to judge what was suspicious behavior. Furthermore , as we have seen in this thread there is serious doubt that either of them even saw the man as claimed.

Does the log still exist?  Have you seen it to confirm that it does not contain Postal's call?  If it is simply not available to check, that is not evidence of anything.  Regardless, you would allege it was forged or that there was no "corroborating" witness to information recorded therein etc.  What we have is Postal's sworn testimony and affidavit that she made the call.  And the police responded to that call.  I'm not aware of any other CTer that questions whether Postal made the call to the DPD.  It is absurd and highlights an outlandish struggle against reality.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 18, 2018, 03:34:23 PM
Carpio, I'll probably regret asking this, but why do you think Saint Patsy went to the movies ? 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 03:59:14 PM
Next false assumption.

Mrs. POSTAL. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area....

Brewer does not report back what Burroughs might have told him. Suspect is currently not to be seen.

LOL.  This is not complex.  What Postal knows: 1) A man has entered the theatre without buying a ticket; 2) Burroughs is the ticket taker; 3) The man has gotten past Burroughs without being seen because he is in the theatre somewhere; 4) Brewer confirms after conducting a search with Burroughs that they hadn't seen him; 5) that it is possible to avoid Burroughs by heading up to the balcony upon entry.   As a result, Postal concludes - again per her testimony - that the man has gone up to the balcony.   There is no ambiguity on that point.  Both she and Burroughs reached the same conclusion.  She makes the call to the police.  She has cause to believe the man is in the balcony.  Thus, she is the obvious source of that report.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 04:28:05 PM
Correct, it real simple.

You have no clue what Burroughs saw and what conclusions he reached. Neither did Postal since she didn't talk to Burroughs.

As per her testimony.

Mr. BALL. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the balcony down there?
Mrs. POSTAL. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and fight straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.


The suspect could be anywhere in that theater.

As per her testimony.

We know exactly what Burroughs saw or rather didn't see.  He testified about it.  He didn't see the man enter the theatre.  He was the ticket taker.  If a person entered the theatre, the ticket taker would ask for his ticket.  He couldn't get past Burroughs without a ticket.  But the man who entered the theatre without a ticket had somehow gained access to the theatre because he hadn't come back out.  He didn't disappear in thin air.  Postal knows that to avoid Burroughs - the ticket taker - that he could have gone directly to the balcony.  Burroughs reached the same conclusion.  There is no ambiguity from Postal or Burroughs testimony that they believed Oswald had gone to the balcony for that reason.  The testimony you cited confirms that point.  Postal indicated that Oswald could have gone up the stairs to the balcony and then come down avoiding the lobby where Burroughs was located.
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 18, 2018, 04:41:05 PM
If she didn't see him go past her, how could she see he had a panicked look on his face?

Because both Brewer and Postal are telling a forced story that omits what they really saw because what they really saw was totally incriminating and evidenced the two Oswalds...The panicked look was a deliberate silent movie-type pantomime exaggeration that Oswald put on in the first place outside Brewer's in order to get his attention and suspicion...

Butch Burroughs was very clear that there was a second Oswald arrested about 3 or 4 minutes after the ground floor Oswald was arrested..."He looked so much like Oswald he could have been his twin brother"... It is a simple matter of criminal detection deduction that Burroughs was also constrained in what he could say like Postal and Brewer because he didn't mention this arrestee coming down from the balcony or being led through the theater and out the back door...The balcony arrest was given away when a cop yelled from a side window on the balcony stairs to another cop in the alley below that they had gotten their man...That would not have happened if Oswald was straight arrested downstairs...It was also revealed in Stringfellow's police report...

None of the very sincere Lone Nutters notice that Belin is deliberately suborning perjury in his Commission interview of Brewer by failing to ask Brewer exactly what time this all happened...Belin is deliberately avoiding asking Brewer what time he witnessed Oswald at his store because he knows it seriously clashes with Butch Burroughs' insistence that Oswald arrived between 1pm and 1:07...As well as other ground floor witnesses...This is an intentional omission, and therefore criminal suborning of perjury, because Belin is fully aware that if he gets Brewer to mention the exact time that others will figure out that there's a serious time clash between the Oswald witnesses and something funny is going on...There is not enough time for Oswald to come in at 1pm as Burroughs said...Get popcorn at 1:15...Go from seat to seat looking for a contact...And rush in without paying and have the cops called quickly at the same time and the Lone Nutters have done nothing to answer this short of weak avoidance... 
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 18, 2018, 04:56:18 PM
Brewer said he "couldn't see anything upstairs."  That can mean it was too dark to tell whether Oswald was there or not.  All it means is that they didn't see Oswald anywhere - upstairs or down in a dark theater.  But they knew he had gone in and somehow got past Burroughs without being noticed. Postal knew from experience that it was possible to elude Burroughs in the foyer by heading up the balcony stairs upon entering the theatre because some kids had apparently done that in the past.  It seems entirely reasonable that this became the basis of the balcony report.   

"I trust and believe everything they say without question in a case that is riddled with official fraud"..."I ignore that dark theaters are classic Intelligence rendezvous and Applin told interviewers that he saw Jack Ruby watching Oswald's arrest from the back row"...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 05:01:04 PM
No, your Von Pein style LN spin doesn't cut it.

Totally irrelevant what Burroughs testified since he was not in the loop, Postal cut him out and did not know what he saw or didn't see.

The suspect had free rein to move around once past Burroughs.

As per Postals testimony.

You're bust on this one.

How can Burroughs be irrelevant in this scenario?  He is the ticket taker.  Oswald doesn't have a ticket.  If Burroughs had encountered him, Oswald would not have gained access to the theatre without a ticket.  Postal is trying to reconcile how a person without a ticket gets past Burroughs in the lobby.  She knows from prior experience that this can be done by going to the balcony.  That doesn't seem like an outlandish conclusion under the circumstances known to her - again as confirmed in her testimony.  We don't know her exact words to the police.  Maybe she indicated he might be in the balcony because of that.  It certainly is a more straightforward conclusion than everyone is lying and Oswald doubles are roaming all over the place.  And the police are being sent to the balcony where Oswald is not sitting in an effort to frame him.   
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 06:24:37 PM
Known bypass is via balcony but not confined to balcony as per testimony.

Once past Burroughs suspect can be anywhere in the theater, ticket or no ticket.

Burroughs' observations are unknown to Postal and thus irrelevant for her call.

Brutal.  Postal knows that a man has entered without a ticket.  She knows Burroughs is the ticket taker working in the lobby.  She knows the man cannot get past Burroughs without a ticket.  The man has also not come out of the theatre.  Therefore he has gained access to the theatre without encountering Burroughs.  Postal reconciles these facts with the conclusion that the man has gone to the balcony to explain how he has avoided Burroughs.   If he has gone to the balcony area, then that is the most likely place for him to be a couple minutes later when she calls the police.  What is so difficult to understand about that obvious point? As confirmed in her testimony.  You don't accept this explanation but you will entertain an outlandish and baseless counternarrative in which all these people are lying for some unknown reason and that there was an Oswald double.  Unreal.
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 18, 2018, 07:03:27 PM
Douglass:

  According to Warren H. ?Butch? Burroughs, the concession stand operator at the Texas Theater, Lee Harvey Oswald entered the theater sometime between 1:00 and 1:07 P.M., several minutes before Officer Tippit was slain seven blocks away.[428] Iftrue, Butch Burroughs?s observation would eliminate Oswald as a candidate for Tippet?s murder. Perhaps for that reason, Burroughs was asked by a Warren Commission attorney the apparently straightforward question, ?Did you see [Oswald] come in the theater?? and answered honestly, ?No, sir; I didn?t.?[429] What someone reading this testimony would not know is that Butch Burroughs was unable to see anyone enter the theater from where he was standing at his concession stand, unless that person came into the area where he was working. As he explained to me in an interview, there was a partition between his concession stand and the front door. Someone could enter the theater, go directly up a flight of stairs to the balcony, and not be seen from the concession stand.[430] That, Burroughs said, is what Oswald apparently did. However, Burroughs still knew Oswald had come into the theater ?between 1:00 and 1:07 P.M.? because he saw him inside the theater soon after that. As he told me, he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15 P.M.[431]?information that the Warren Commission did not solicit from him in his testimony. When Oswald bought his popcorn at 1:15 P.M., this was exactly the same time the Warren Report said Officer Tippit was being shot to death[432]?evidently by someone else.

    Butch Burroughs, who witnessed Oswald?s arrest, startled me in his interview by saying he saw a second arrest occur in the Texas Theater only ?three or four minutes later.?[444] He said the Dallas Police then arrested ?an Oswald lookalike.? Burroughs said the second man ?looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something.?[445] When I questioned the comparison by asking, ?Could you see the second man as well as you could see Oswald?? he said, ?Yes, I could see both of them. They looked alike.?[446] After the officers half-carried and half-dragged Oswald to the police car in front of the theater, within a space of three or four minutes, Burroughs saw the second Oswald placed under arrest and handcuffed. The Oswald look-alike, however, was taken by police not out the front but out the back of the theater.[447]
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Richard Smith on September 18, 2018, 07:19:29 PM
Douglass:

  According to Warren H. ?Butch? Burroughs, the concession stand operator at the Texas Theater, Lee Harvey Oswald entered the theater sometime between 1:00 and 1:07 P.M., several minutes before Officer Tippit was slain seven blocks away.[428] Iftrue, Butch Burroughs?s observation would eliminate Oswald as a candidate for Tippet?s murder. Perhaps for that reason, Burroughs was asked by a Warren Commission attorney the apparently straightforward question, ?Did you see [Oswald] come in the theater?? and answered honestly, ?No, sir; I didn?t.?[429] What someone reading this testimony would not know is that Butch Burroughs was unable to see anyone enter the theater from where he was standing at his concession stand, unless that person came into the area where he was working. As he explained to me in an interview, there was a partition between his concession stand and the front door. Someone could enter the theater, go directly up a flight of stairs to the balcony, and not be seen from the concession stand.[430] That, Burroughs said, is what Oswald apparently did. However, Burroughs still knew Oswald had come into the theater ?between 1:00 and 1:07 P.M.? because he saw him inside the theater soon after that. As he told me, he sold popcorn to Oswald at 1:15 P.M.[431]?information that the Warren Commission did not solicit from him in his testimony. When Oswald bought his popcorn at 1:15 P.M., this was exactly the same time the Warren Report said Officer Tippit was being shot to death[432]?evidently by someone else.

   

Mr. BALL. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?
Mr. BURROUGHS. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.


Mr. BALL. Did you see that man come in the theatre?
Mr. BURROUGHS. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Well, I was----I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Mr. BALL. Up to the balcony?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, sir----first, I think he was up there.

Mr. BALL. At least there was a stairway there?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Yes, there was two.
Mr. BALL. Is there a stairway near the entry?
Mr. BURROUGHS. Of the door----yes. Yes, it goes straight----you come through the door and go straight----you go upstairs to the balcony.
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 18, 2018, 07:59:53 PM
You're ignoring that Burroughs witnessed Oswald come buy popcorn at his stand at 1:15...Brewer saw Oswald acting suspicious at 1:39 or so...

You also flagrantly ignore that Burroughs clearly articulated to Douglass that he saw a man who was identical to Oswald arrested 3 to 4 minutes after the Oswald who was arrested on the ground floor...

Some of the witnesses said they saw Oswald come in during the trailers before the movie...That had to be at the 1pm to 1:07 time that Burroughs claimed... 

If you cherry-pick and ignore good evidence I consider that a concession of its validity...

Belin is suborning perjury because he is deliberately avoiding asking Brewer what time he saw Oswald outside his shoe store...Belin is avoiding it because he knows he's in a whole lot of trouble if Brewer makes the issue known...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 09:04:00 PM
Brewer isn't standing directly in front of the theater so I guess it's accurate that 55 years later a troll could state Brewer didn't see Saint Patsy enter the theater.

It's just a fact -- Brewer didn't see the guy he was looking at from behind and 50 yards away enter the theater.

There's nothing you won't misrepresent, including what a "troll" is.  Repeatedly kicking the crap out of your lame arguments does not make somebody a troll.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 09:08:54 PM
It's in her testimony.  Clear as day.  She thought the man had gone to the balcony because Burroughs did not see him pass through the lobby.

Utter  BS:.  This is just another one of "Richard Smith's" legendary dishonest misrepresentations.

Postal doesn't say in her testimony that she thought the man had gone to the balcony at the time she called the police.  She said that she talked about it with Burroughs and that's what they surmised.  But she didn't talk to Burroughs before calling the police -- just Brewer.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 09:13:55 PM
A man is observed by her and Brewer appearing to hide from the police by ducking away from the street whenever a police car goes by.

More  BS:.  Postal didn't see anybody "appearing to hide from the police by ducking away from the street whenever a police car goes by".  Neither did Brewer, for that matter.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 09:24:22 PM
The  BS: continues...

Brutal.  Postal knows that a man has entered without a ticket.

No, she didn't know that.  She said "what man?" and she told Brewer she wasn't sure if he bought a ticket or not.

Quote
  She knows Burroughs is the ticket taker working in the lobby.  She knows the man cannot get past Burroughs without a ticket.

If she knows the man cannot get past Burroughs without a ticket, then why would she assume that somebody did?

Quote
The man has also not come out of the theatre.

How would she know that?  Did you forget about the exit door to the alley?

Quote
  Therefore he has gained access to the theatre without encountering Burroughs.

She assumes that a guy that nobody saw enter the theater, and that nobody saw in the theater is now in the theater because ....why?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 18, 2018, 09:33:47 PM
It's just a fact -- Brewer didn't see the guy he was looking at from behind and 50 yards away enter the theater.

There's nothing you won't misrepresent, including what a "troll" is.  Repeatedly kicking the crap out of your lame arguments does not make somebody a troll.

I agree Brewer didn't see Saint Patsy enter the theater.

Let me know when you're going to begin repeatedly kicking the crap out of my lame arguments because all I've seen so far is 'Oswald's rifle, LOL'.

Be gone, Troll.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 09:52:05 PM
I agree Brewer didn't see Saint Patsy enter the theater.

Huzzah.

Quote
Let me know when you're going to begin repeatedly kicking the crap out of my lame arguments because all I've seen so far is 'Oswald's rifle, LOL'.

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" -- Christopher Hitchens

Let me know when you actually have some evidence that it was Oswald's rifle.

LOL.

Quote
Be gone, Troll.

 :D Heal thyself.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 18, 2018, 10:01:37 PM
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" -- Christopher Hitchens

Let me know when you actually have some evidence that it was Oswald's rifle.


So you're back to 'there is no evidence that it was Saint Patsy's rifle' ?

Trolletti strikes out again.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 18, 2018, 10:06:30 PM
Because both Brewer and Postal are telling a forced story that omits what they really saw because what they really saw was totally incriminating and evidenced the two Oswalds

Thank goodness there's just one or two here who spout this sort of nonsense. Why just two Oswalds? Why not three or six or a hundred? I suppose there were two or thousand Mama Oswald as well?

It's insane.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 10:10:30 PM
Does the log still exist?  Have you seen it to confirm that it does not contain Postal's call?  If it is simply not available to check, that is not evidence of anything.  Regardless, you would allege it was forged or that there was no "corroborating" witness to information recorded therein etc.  What we have is Postal's sworn testimony and affidavit that she made the call.  And the police responded to that call.  I'm not aware of any other CTer that questions whether Postal made the call to the DPD.  It is absurd and highlights an outlandish struggle against reality.

Of course it still exists as it is in the twenty-six volumes of evidence. Why do I have to do *your* work? Either show that Postal called or stop saying that she did when you have NO evidence showing that she did.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 10:12:07 PM
So you're back to 'there is no evidence that it was Saint Patsy's rifle' ?

Have you found any yet, strikeout king?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 10:15:48 PM
Carpio, I'll probably regret asking this, but why do you think Saint Patsy went to the movies ?

That is actually a good question Geek. Here is my answer.

Quote on

10) Why did LHO go to a movie theater after allegedly shooting the president and a police officer?

Does this make any sense IF we believe what the WC told us?  Is this the normal reaction for most people?  I mean the Mexican border was not that far away and research has shown NONE of the bus, rail or air terminals were alerted or blocked off so LHO could have hopped on any of these things and gotten clean away!

Yet he instead goes to a movie theater!  Why?  We have NO clue as the WC only told us he was walking down the street (another dumb thing to do) when a cop car scared him into the movie theater.  The thing that got him noticed supposedly was the act of NOT paying when he had the money on him!  This is up there with him littering his shell casings at the TSBD and the JDT scenes (at this location it has been said he left his wallet with ID in it for good measure!)!  Yet none of this ?catch me? behavior was shown when he was arrested as he said he was innocent and did NOT confess to anything they claimed he did!

If you don?t believe in a conspiracy how can you explain this very odd behavior?  YOU can?t so you call others who point it out all kinds of names!


Quote off
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 10:23:31 PM
Brutal.  Postal knows that a man has entered without a ticket.  She knows Burroughs is the ticket taker working in the lobby.  She knows the man cannot get past Burroughs without a ticket.  The man has also not come out of the theatre.  Therefore he has gained access to the theatre without encountering Burroughs.  Postal reconciles these facts with the conclusion that the man has gone to the balcony to explain how he has avoided Burroughs.   If he has gone to the balcony area, then that is the most likely place for him to be a couple minutes later when she calls the police.  What is so difficult to understand about that obvious point? As confirmed in her testimony.  You don't accept this explanation but you will entertain an outlandish and baseless counternarrative in which all these people are lying for some unknown reason and that there was an Oswald double.  Unreal.

You just keep lying. It has been shown numerous times in this thread that Postal couldn't say that she sold a ticket to the man. And yet, you keep on saying that she did.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 10:25:31 PM
There is no better demonstration of the complete bankruptcy of the "Oswald Did It" position than that its proponents have to lie about the evidence in order to make their arguments.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 18, 2018, 10:26:04 PM
That is actually a good question Geek. Here is my answer.

Quote on

10) Why did LHO go to a movie theater after allegedly shooting the president and a police officer?

Does this make any sense IF we believe what the WC told us?  Is this the normal reaction for most people?  I mean the Mexican border was not that far away and research has shown NONE of the bus, rail or air terminals were alerted or blocked off so LHO could have hopped on any of these things and gotten clean away!

Yet he instead goes to a movie theater!  Why?

To hide from the police FFS. The thing is no more complicated than that.
If Brewer hadn't seen him who knows where he would have gone. He could have sat in the theater and contemplated his next move. Even if he'd remained out of sight for an hour or so at some point he would have been turned out of the theater and by that stage the police would be looking for LHO. It's a good thing he was arrested there and then sparing more innocent deaths by his hands.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 18, 2018, 10:45:40 PM
If you know what he means, why don't you answer his question?

I did. I pointed to the Ferrell page re IBM men and Brewer
You brainiacs want to pretend that no one was with Brewer to mind the store

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=10&tab=page
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 18, 2018, 10:49:04 PM
I did. I pointed to the Ferrell page re IBM men and Brewer
You brainiacs want to pretend that no one was with Brewer to mind the store

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=16235#relPageId=10&tab=page

If they aren't on the record corroborating Brewer than they are worthless. Well?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 18, 2018, 10:51:35 PM
I did. I pointed to the Ferrell page re IBM men and Brewer
You brainiacs want to pretend that no one was with Brewer to mind the store

Way to take credit for something I told you about.

The "IBM men" just make the whole thing more suspicious.  These guys who lounge around a shoestore on a Friday afternoon ended up locking up for him?  So these guys whose names he can't remember had a key?
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 18, 2018, 10:58:58 PM
If he has gone to the balcony area, then that is the most likely place for him to be a couple minutes later when she calls the police.

But you seem to be missing the point that Oswald was down on the ground floor in the orchestra section waiting to be arrested at this time...Can't be in two places at once...

On another forum someone found the record of a cop calling to someone down in the alley next to the theater from a window on the stairs to the balcony...I wish I had the link because it was clear they had just arrested Oswald in the balcony from what the cop shouted to those below...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Bill Chapman on September 19, 2018, 12:06:24 AM
Way to take credit for something I told you about.

The "IBM men" just make the whole thing more suspicious.  These guys who lounge around a shoestore on a Friday afternoon ended up locking up for him?  So these guys whose names he can't remember had a key?

The "IBM men" just make the whole thing more suspicious
>>> To you. My condolences...

So these guys whose names he can't remember had a key?
>>> Ask Brewer. I wasn't in his shoes.

Way to take credit for something I told you about.
>>> Where did I take credit? In fact, I linked to the page following your MaryF-linked page... you know, the page actually explaining the presence of the two gents.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 12:11:53 AM
The "IBM men" just make the whole thing more suspicious
>>> To you. My condolences...

Sure, just like a guy staring at shoes is suspicious to you.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Mytton on September 19, 2018, 12:19:25 AM
Sure, just like a guy staring at shoes is suspicious to you.

No, but someone hiding from the police and then going on to hide in a theater is definitely suspicious and warrants further investigation and per chance the guy they find assaults a Police Officer and has a concealed weapon, geez it looks like Brewer was right.

JohnM
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 19, 2018, 12:32:32 AM
OMG! Two acquaintances of Brewer's lounging in his store.  And they were from IBM, no less. Doesn't get any more sinister and diabolical than that !

Yep, the IBM guys and Brewer are suspicious, but Saint Patsy isn't.

There's no end to the troll insanity.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 19, 2018, 02:57:54 AM
Way to take credit for something I told you about.

The "IBM men" just make the whole thing more suspicious.  These guys who lounge around a shoestore on a Friday afternoon ended up locking up for him?  So these guys whose names he can't remember had a key?

No wonder he thought that he should have been fired.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 19, 2018, 04:36:38 AM
No wonder he thought that he should have been fired.

Where does he say he thought he should be fired?
I understand he thought he was going to be fired.
They are quite different things. Maybe it's too subtle for you.
Not only did he not get fired but rather he was promoted. That's what the owner thought of Brewer's efforts.
I guess the owner was a CIA operative intent on keeping Brewer quiet about his real role on the 22nd?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Mitch Todd on September 19, 2018, 06:03:23 AM
[...] She notices him enough to see a "panicked look on his face" and to think he's "running from the police" (even though he wasn't running), and then decides to just turn around and look the other way?  Then Brewer immediately comes up to her and asks about the man and she doesn't know what man or whether or not he bought a ticket?  I think she just didn't want to admit that she supposedly let a guy sneak by her without noticing him at all.

Human beings are hard-wired to quickly and instinctively read the emotions written on the faces and expressions of other human beings. I doubt it took more than a second for her to decide "that man" (hereafter, TM) was "panicky", if even that long.  And she didn't associate the man with the notion of "running from the police" until at least after Johnny Brewer went in to see if he could find him.

Brewer didn't start in the direction of the Texas Theatre until after he saw TM disappear into the theater entrance 240 feet away from where Brewer was standing, so "immediately" may not be the best word to describe the period between TM walk into the theater's entrance recess until Brewer got Postal's attention. 
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Nicholas Turner on September 19, 2018, 08:58:16 AM
Where does he say he thought he should be fired?
I understand he thought he was going to be fired.
They are quite different things. Maybe it's too subtle for you.
Not only did he not get fired but rather he was promoted. That's what the owner thought of Brewer's efforts.
I guess the owner was a CIA operative intent on keeping Brewer quiet about his real role on the 22nd?

Absolutely. Saying you thought you were going to be fired is different from saying you thought you should be fired.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Rob Caprio on September 19, 2018, 03:13:51 PM
Absolutely. Saying you thought you were going to be fired is different from saying you thought you should be fired.

Not really. He thought he was going to be fired because he obviously thought that he did something deserving of it.
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 19, 2018, 05:44:53 PM
There doesn't seem to be very much recognition that there is a clear pattern of two Oswalds entering the Texas Theater...One at 1pm to 1:07 and the other at 1:40...The 1:40 Oswald could not have bought popcorn from Burroughs at 1:15...And the 1pm Oswald obviously purchased a ticket from Julia Postal, which is why she had issues about answering whether she sold Oswald a ticket or not...

Belin deliberately avoided asking Brewer what time he saw Oswald in order not to trigger inquiry into this discrepancy...And the Commission suborned perjury by deliberately not asking Burroughs to elaborate on this popcorn sale and its time as well as witnessing the second Oswald being arrested...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 19, 2018, 05:47:03 PM
Not really. He thought he was going to be fired because he obviously thought that he did something deserving of it.

I don't understand why you play the Lone Nutters' diversion game instead of forcing the incriminating evidence they are obviously avoiding...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 19, 2018, 06:47:00 PM
There doesn't seem to be very much recognition that there is a clear pattern of two Oswalds entering the Texas Theater...One at 1pm to 1:07 and the other at 1:40...The 1:40 Oswald could not have bought popcorn from Burroughs at 1:15...And the 1pm Oswald obviously purchased a ticket from Julia Postal, which is why she had issues about answering whether she sold Oswald a ticket or not...

Belin deliberately avoided asking Brewer what time he saw Oswald in order not to trigger inquiry into this discrepancy...And the Commission suborned perjury by deliberately not asking Burroughs to elaborate on this popcorn sale and its time as well as witnessing the second Oswald being arrested...

So the 1:40 Oswald murdered Tippit ?

Was that the Oswald that was arrested ?

Oh wait, I forgot both Oswald's were arrested in the TT.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 07:34:33 PM
No, but someone hiding from the police

Staring at shoes is hiding from the police?  Walking down the sidewalk on Jefferson Blvd is hiding from the police?

Quote
and then going on to hide in a theater

If sitting in a theater is hiding, then I guess all of the 15-20 patrons whose names the police "lost" were hiding too, right?

Quote
is definitely suspicious and warrants further investigation and per chance the guy they find assaults a Police Officer and has a concealed weapon,

Perchance.  Too bad you can prove neither.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 07:35:51 PM
OMG! Two acquaintances of Brewer's lounging in his store.  And they were from IBM, no less. Doesn't get any more sinister and diabolical than that !

Yep, the IBM guys and Brewer are suspicious, but Saint Patsy isn't.

There's no end to the troll insanity.

Says the insane troll who has yet to figure out what Brewer's man did that was suspicious.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 07:40:42 PM
Human beings are hard-wired to quickly and instinctively read the emotions written on the faces and expressions of other human beings. I doubt it took more than a second for her to decide "that man" (hereafter, TM) was "panicky", if even that long.  And she didn't associate the man with the notion of "running from the police" until at least after Johnny Brewer went in to see if he could find him.

Think this through a minute, Mitch.  She sees a panicky looking guy coming toward her and her first instinct is to turn her back on him and look the other way?

Quote
Brewer didn't start in the direction of the Texas Theatre until after he saw TM disappear into the theater entrance 240 feet away from where Brewer was standing, so "immediately" may not be the best word to describe the period between TM walk into the theater's entrance recess until Brewer got Postal's attention.

Perhaps not, but how long do you really think Postal stood there staring west?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 07:45:55 PM
So the 1:40 Oswald murdered Tippit ?

Was that the Oswald that was arrested ?

Oh wait, I forgot both Oswald's were arrested in the TT.

Apparently he was also arrested in the balcony.

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth191000/m1/1/med_res/)

Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 19, 2018, 08:22:06 PM
So the 1:40 Oswald murdered Tippit ?

Was that the Oswald that was arrested ?

Oh wait, I forgot both Oswald's were arrested in the TT.

I'm not sure who to believe? The ones who said Oswald killed Tippit or the ones who said it was someone else? In any case it appears Tippit was involved because he sat at the gas station waiting for Oswald's bus...Those who were framing Oswald may have murdered Tippit to escalate the situation to a mad dog cop killer who then got gunned down...

Good question...The Oswald in the grave was apparently Lee...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 19, 2018, 08:44:07 PM
I'm not sure who to believe? The ones who said Oswald killed Tippit or the ones who said it was someone else? In any case it appears Tippit was involved because he sat at the gas station waiting for Oswald's bus...Those who were framing Oswald may have murdered Tippit to escalate the situation to a mad dog cop killer who then got gunned down...

Good question...The Oswald in the grave was apparently Lee...

It's a good thing for the framers that Tippit left the gas station, huh ?

And considering the number of witnesses that identified Oswald as the man they saw holding a pistol, emptying shells and fleeing the scene of Tippit's murder....well then, I'm beginning to suspect that there were at least two more Oswalds running around in the frame-up besides the two Oswalds in the TT.

The Oswald duplicating factory must have been working overtime preparing for the great frame-up.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Logan on September 19, 2018, 08:50:16 PM
I'm not sure who to believe? The ones who said Oswald killed Tippit or the ones who said it was someone else? In any case it appears Tippit was involved because he sat at the gas station waiting for Oswald's bus...Those who were framing Oswald may have murdered Tippit to escalate the situation to a mad dog cop killer who then got gunned down...

Good question...The Oswald in the grave was apparently Lee...
In the past you have stated that there were two Oswald's at the TSBD. Now we are to believe , according to you, that both Oswald's made their way to the Texas Theater and  both were apprehended and taken out separate exits? ;) ;) ;) ::) ::) ::) ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 09:00:32 PM
Actually Trolletti, I figured it out a long time ago. Not that I needed to figure it out, Brewer explains what Saint Patsy did to arouse his suspicions in the interview you linked to.

Well now I'm wondering if you actually read it and understood it, because he doesn't explain it there either.  In fact he specifically said "I still had no reason to have somebody call the police".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 09:07:39 PM
And considering the number of witnesses that identified Oswald as the man they saw holding a pistol, emptying shells and fleeing the scene of Tippit's murder....

You forgot the unfair, rigged lineups part...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Howard Gee on September 19, 2018, 09:26:40 PM
Uncorroborated. What a shame BELIN forgot to read the transcript of his own interview:

Mr. BREWER - We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.

The two IBM guys with a shoe fetish would have been just what he needed --- or maybe they would have been exactly what the WC didn't need.

What's uncorroborated ?

Yeah, the WC was concerned that the presence of two IBM guys with a shoe fetish in Brewer's store would blow the whole frame up to smithereens.

 :D  :D :D ;D
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 19, 2018, 09:34:59 PM
Stringfellow was obviously mistaken...

And Burroughs and Haire too???
Title: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 19, 2018, 09:38:54 PM
In the past you have stated that there were two Oswald's at the TSBD. Now we are to believe , according to you, that both Oswald's made their way to the Texas Theater and  both were apprehended and taken out separate exits? ;) ;) ;) ::) ::) ::) ??? ??? ???

Asking a question that repeats the evidence that is being shown is usually taken as a sign of not being able to answer something you know is true...

Witnessing of Oswald doubles in different locations usually reinforces its veracity rather than undermines it...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 09:41:16 PM
Trolletti, Brewer does a very good job of describing his encounter with your hero and explaining why he trailed him to the theater.

Thanks for linking the interview, Troll.

Nice evasion.  Quote the exact words that describe what the man "did to arouse his suspicions".
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Brian Doyle on September 19, 2018, 09:48:52 PM
It's a good thing for the framers that Tippit left the gas station, huh ?

And considering the number of witnesses that identified Oswald as the man they saw holding a pistol, emptying shells and fleeing the scene of Tippit's murder....well then, I'm beginning to suspect that there were at least two more Oswalds running around in the frame-up besides the two Oswalds in the TT.

The Oswald duplicating factory must have been working overtime preparing for the great frame-up.

This is silly and shows an unserious poster...Tippit was seen frantically making a phone call at the Top Ten record shop after leaving the gas station...Some kind of plan was on because the Gloco station wasn't on Tippit's cop route...

If that was the second Oswald who shot Tippit there is no reason to think there were more Oswald's than this one and the one at the theater...Your input is silly...

Meanwhile you are not answering the evidence for one Oswald being witnessed arriving at the Texas Theater at 1pm and another at 1:40 after baiting Brewer with scared pantomime acting in front of his store...
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 19, 2018, 10:17:59 PM
Not really. He thought he was going to be fired because he obviously thought that he did something deserving of it.

If that's your understanding of his comment then you are WRONG again and have proven to be unable to process even the most basic information.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 19, 2018, 10:43:03 PM

... If that was the second Oswald who shot Tippit there is no reason to think there were more Oswald's than this one and the one at the theater...Your input is silly...

This is just plain nuts. Absolute bonkers.

Meanwhile you are not answering the evidence for one Oswald being witnessed arriving at the Texas Theater at 1pm and another at 1:40 after baiting Brewer with scared pantomime acting in front of his store...
I find it fascinating that you say an Oswald double was deliberately trying to attract Brewer's attention and JI thinks there was no reason at all why Brewer should have been suspicious. I don't expect you kooks to agree on everything but this is a shambles.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 10:56:23 PM
This is just plain nuts. Absolute bonkers.
I find it fascinating that you say an Oswald double was deliberately trying to attract Brewer's attention and JI thinks there was no reason at all why Brewer should have been suspicious. I don't expect you kooks to agree on everything but this is a shambles.

How weird that people who don't just accept conclusions on faith would not march in lockstep like lemmings off a cliff...

There are a lot of things that Doyle thinks that I disagree with.  Same with Rob.  Same with Walt.

Have you ever disagreed with anything a fellow nutter said about anything?
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 19, 2018, 11:11:51 PM
How weird that people who don't just accept conclusions on faith would not march in lockstep like lemmings off a cliff...

There are a lot of things that Doyle thinks that I disagree with.
I'm not talking about you kooks being in lockstep, it's just the opposite. Some of you guys aren't even on the same planet as each other. So do you agree with Doyle's (Armstrong's) two-Oswalds theory? If not why do you not respond to his posts pointing out the absurdity? I know why. So long as he maintains that Oswald (the good one, the same one you believe in) isn't guilty then that's OK with you.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 11:25:40 PM
I'm not talking about you kooks being in lockstep, it's just the opposite. Some of you guys aren't even on the same planet as each other. So do you agree with Doyle's (Armstrong's) two-Oswalds theory? If not why do you not respond to his posts pointing out the absurdity?

So it's absurd just because you call it absurd?  How does one Oswald get arrested in the main theater and taken out the front, another guy get arrested in the balcony, and another guy get taken out the back?  How is one Oswald buying popcorn at 1:07 and another one shooting Tippit?  How does one Oswald exit the front door of the TSDB and walk east on Elm to catch a bus, another one runs down and gets in a Rambler, and a third one goes out the back door of the building?  How is one Oswald at work at the TSBD while another one is buying beer and peco brittle at the Jiffy store?  Those things are what I call absurd.

But I guess it's a lot easier to call people names than to present coherent counter-arguments.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 19, 2018, 11:39:13 PM
So it's absurd just because you call it absurd?  How does one Oswald get arrested in the main theater and taken out the front, another guy get arrested in the balcony, and another guy get taken out the back?  How is one Oswald buying popcorn at 1:07 and another one shooting Tippit?  How does one Oswald exit the front door of the TSDB and walk east on Elm to catch a bus, another one runs down and gets in a Rambler, and a third one goes out the back door of the building?  How is one Oswald at work at the TSBD while another one is buying beer and peco brittle at the Jiffy store?  Those things are what I call absurd.

But I guess it's a lot easier to call people names than to present coherent counter-arguments.

So you don't believe that all of those Oswald 'sightings' are attribute to multiple Oswalds. That's interesting.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: John Iacoletti on September 19, 2018, 11:48:42 PM
So you don't believe that all of those Oswald 'sightings' are attribute to multiple Oswalds. That's interesting.

The real Oswald was wherever the Warren Commission wanted him to be at any particular time.
Title: Re: Why did Oswald go to the movies?
Post by: Steve Howsley on September 20, 2018, 12:20:16 AM