JFK Assassination Forum

JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2021, 09:32:08 PM

Title: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2021, 09:32:08 PM

____________________________________________________________

Shooting the 6.5 X 52 mm, 7.35 x 51mm Cartridges and the Carcano Rifles,
an article by Dave Emary, Senior Ballistician of Hornady Manufacturing

____________________________________________________________

The 6.5 X 52 mm cartridge has taken a great deal of criticism as being
underpowered and anemic. From a ballistic standpoint this is a little hard
to justify. The Swedish 6.5 X 55 mm cartridge is considered an outstanding
cartridge yet it is only able to produce 100 fps more velocity with a
156-grain bullet in the M96 rifle. The 6.5 X 55 requires a maximum average
pressure of 55,000 psi and approximately 6 more grains of powder to
produce this meager gain in performance. The . 30-30 Winchester, regarded
as an adequate deer rifle and known to have killed many moose and bear
produces 2,220 fps in a 24” barrel with a 170 grain bullet. The 6.5 X 52
mm fires a bullet with a higher ballistic coefficient, at a higher
velocity, shoots flatter and has far more penetration capability than the
.30-30. From the standpoint of a service rifle cartridge the 6.5 X 52 with
its relatively low operating pressure, coupled with its modest powder
charge would result in much less barrel throat erosion and wear. This
would equate to longer barrel life and decreased operating cost. In fact,
much of what was done in the Carcano rifle/ammunition system was aimed at
long barrel life, as will be shown later. From my point of view the 6.5 X
52 is a very efficient cartridge, offering adequate performance for what
it was intended.

The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many “through and
through” wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
typically would not tumble inside its’ target unless it encountered
something hard such as bone. When it did tumble the wounding effect is
well known.

____________________________________________________________


The original 6.5 X 52 mm Carcano design used a gain twist barrel. The gain
twist results in a very slow initial twist in the barrel progressively
getting faster until the full twist rate is attained at the muzzle. The
slow initial twist results in substantially less torque being imparted to
the bullet during the highest loading phase of the interior ballistic
cycle. This results in significantly less barrel wear in the throat. This
coupled with the very deep rifling of the barrel would result in barrels
that would have a very long wear and accuracy life. This in fact is the
case. Many M91 model rifles show signs of considerable amounts of
ammunition being fired through them, because of the crazed/frosted
condition of the bore, yet still show very strong rifling and shoot well
with the proper size bullets. The 7.35 X 51 mm Carcano rifles used a
standard fixed twist barrel. The Carcano bolt is the model of a simple,
easy to field strip bolt. It is about as fool proof as you can get for a
common soldier. The Carcano trigger has taken a considerable amount of
criticism. The trigger is basically a Mauser type two-stage trigger. In
almost all cases if you find the trigger rough or creepy simply polishing
the sear and trigger mating faces result in a very acceptable trigger for
a military rifle. For the most part I have found Carcano triggers have
less creep, are more crisp and lighter than the majority of Mauser
triggers I have encountered.

The materials used in the Carcano are excellent. These rifles were made
from special steels perfected by the Czechs, for which the Italians paid
royalties. If you have ever tried doing any work on a Carcano receiver you
will find out just how hard and tough the steel is. The Carcano has also
received a reputation as being a “weak” design. Nothing could be
further from the truth. The Italians made a small run of Carcanos early in
WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.

____________________________________________________________

The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
5.5” – 6.5” at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
meters. The Carcano’s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 – 350 meters. This is
about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
his enemy for ranges out to 220 – 230 meters. How much more simple and
effective could it have been made.

____________________________________________________________

6.5 x 52 mm

The Carcano rifles are capable of outstanding accuracy. With the exception
of a military issue type load in the short carbines they are very pleasant
to shoot from a recoil standpoint. Because of the above mentioned sight
picture for the Carcano, front sight in the bottom of the rear sight
notch, it is very important to have a consistent stock- cheek weld for
consistent accuracy. It is often very helpful to use a carbide lamp or a
sight black product to blacken the sights, which improves contrast and
sight picture.

____________________________________________________________

CONCLUSION:

The 6.5 X 52 is a very useful and capable cartridge. It served well as a
military cartridge for over 80 years. The 7.35 X 51 would have been an
even more effective military cartridge than the 6.5 X 52 had its timing
been different. It is interesting to note that the .308 Winchester / 7.62
X 51 mm NATO and the 7.35 X 51 mm are nearly the same dimensions. Both the
6.5 and 7.35 cartridges are fun to shoot and properly loaded capable of
very good accuracy. The Carcano rifle is a well made rifle that is by no
means weak or poorly manufactured. They are reliable and strong rifles
that are fun to shoot and offer a tremendous variety of types and markings
for the collector. I will admit that they are a rather utilitarian rifle
as compared to some others. However, they are probably one of the most
efficient, cost effective, user friendly battle rifles produced in their
era. The rifle, ammunition combination properly loaded is capable of
accuracy that will rival the most accurate of the Mauser chamberings.

____________________________________________________________
Carcano Homepage: Italian Military Rifles and Carbines
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 03, 2021, 10:54:27 PM

Interesting article. Thanks!

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 04, 2021, 01:58:23 AM

Mr. EISENBERG. I should ask first if you are familiar with this weapon.
I have handed the witness Commission Exhibit 139.
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. We fired this weapon from a machine rest for round-to-round dispersion. We fired exactly 20 rounds in this test, and the dispersion which we measured is of conventional magnitude, about the same that we get with our present military rifles, and the standard deviation of dispersion is .29 mil.
Mr. EISENBERG. That is a fraction of a degree?
Mr. SIMMONS. A mil is an angular measurement. There are 17.7 mils to a degree.
Mr. EISENBERG. Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is as accurate as the current American military rifles?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing.
Mr. EISENBERG. Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy?
Mr. SIMMONS. Yes, the weapon is quite accurate. For most small arms, we discover that the round- to-round dispersion is of the order of three-tenths of a mil. We have run into some unusual ones, however, which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, except in selected lots of ammunition.
Mr. McCLOY. You are talking about the present military rifle--will you designate it?
Mr. SIMMONS. The M-14.

Oswald's rifle.
(https://www.reviewjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/13018301_web1_AP_6409010102.jpg)

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 04, 2021, 03:59:19 AM

"91/38 Carcano Carbine Review" ( Link (https://www.huntinggearguy.com/rifle-reviews/91-38-carcano-carbine-review/) )

(Not the Carcano Short Rifle)

February 23, 2021; Excerpts ...

Carcano clips

The Carcano uses the Mannlicher clip setup. Reproduction clips cost around $10-15. To load them, pull the bolt back, press the loaded clip into the magazine hard until you hear/feel it click in place, and the rifle is loaded. Run the bolt and shoot, once you load the last round, the clip will automatically fall out the bottom. .. .as long as it’s clean and unbent. If the clip chute is dirty or the clip is bent, it might not fall out like it’s supposed to, but you can just ram a full clip in from the top to push out the spent one.

To release a clip that’s full or partially full, press the en-block down a bit, then push forward on the button inside the front of the trigger guard. The clip will pop into your hands, kinda like the clip release on an M1 Garand if you’re familiar with those.

6.5x52mm Carcano

In the middle of so many overpowered rifle rounds in late 1800’s and early 1900’s, the 6.5×52 Carcano is . . .almost futuristic? While other nations were fielding beasty 30 cal cartridges like the 30-06 (3000 ft-lbs of energy) and 7.62x54R (2700 ft-lbs), the Italians were running a more reasonable cartridge at 1900 ft-lbs of energy. Had they been running a lighter 129-140 grain bullet instead of their tank of a 160 grain bullet, it would have been very close to an 1890’s 6.5 Creedmoor. And unlike many other rounds of this age, it’s unrimmed so there’s no potential issues with rimlock like you’d get in the SMLE or Mosin Nagant.

That all said, 6.5 Carcano does not use 6.5mm bullets like other 6.5 rifles of today. Instead of the 0.264″ diameter 6.5 everyone else uses, they’re 0.268″ in diameter. This means you need Carcano-specific bullets, and regular 6.5 bullets off the shelf may not be accurate. Commercial ammo for the 6.5 Carcano is also usually 0.264″, so you won’t get tip-top accuracy. You’ll need to reload with Prvi 139 grain, Carcano-specific bullets to get it right.

Is the Carcano any good?

I think there are pros and cons to the Carcano like any rifle. The cartridge is more reasonable and a better choice than most other cartridges of the same age. The fact it uses a weird bullet diameter is a pain in the ass for owners today because bullets are harder to find.

For the rifle, the bent bolt is nicer to use than a straight bolt though the action feels much rough and slower than something like a Lee Enfield No1 mk3 or a No 4 mk 1. Still not as bad as a Mosin Nagant.

The clip system is a bit faster than stripper clips but it brings additional possible points of failure. It’s also not possible to top up while the clip’s in the gun.

Sights on the Carcano vary depending on your model. Both the original M91 adjustable sight and the newer M38 fixed sights have wide V-notch rear sights and a simple front post. The M91’s and some M91/38’s have adjustable sights that adjust to ridiculous ranges you’d never be able to make a hit at.

Use a Carcano for hunting?

Unless your Carcano shoots the 0.264″ bullets well, or you found some rare 0.268″ soft points to reload with, I’d strongly recommend against hunting with a Carcano. You may need to modify the sights, the safety is terrible for hunting, and there are just much better new production hunting rifles.

---

     My Note ...
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
     Many Carcano surplus rifle owners would use modern "6.5" (.264" version)
     ammo, thinking it would work fine. When they consistently missed using the
     "wrong" ammo, they declared the Carcano junk. But the reviewer notes that
     the factory-spec 6.5 ammo is necessary for a proper evaluation. I would bet
     most of the conspiracy kooks who fired a Carcano used the readily-available
     modern 6.5 ammo (not ready meant for the 6.5 Carcano) rather than factory-
     spec ammunition. By contrast, Dr John Lattimer,  "Beyond the Magic Bullet"
     and the Haags used authentic factory-spec 6.5x52 ammunition."

     (Wikipedia states ".268 cal, actually 0.2675 inches")

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Joe Elliott on August 04, 2021, 05:10:48 AM

Bill has provided the following quote from Dave Emary:

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 03, 2021, 09:32:08 PM

The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many “through and
through” wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
typically would not tumble inside its’ target unless it encountered
something hard such as bone. When it did tumble the wounding effect is
well known.

The Carcano cartridge, and full metal jacket bullets are ‘humane’ weapons. It is sort of standard history that advocates for more humane weapons forced the major powers to adopt more humane bullets, against the wishes of the military. They truth is, even without the Hague convention, the military would have chosen the more ‘humane’ bullets. The humane advocates thought they had triumphed over the generals with the 1899 and 1907 Hague conventions, but they really didn’t.

A non Full Metal Jacket bullet, or a non FMJ bullet will due great damage to a body, but only for a short distance, like within two feet of the impact spot when travelling through organic material. In contrast, a FMJ bullet will do much less damage but can travel more live four feet within organic material before stopping. It would seem that a non FMJ bullet would be more effective because after travelling two feet through a body, a bullet will usually be leaving a human body behind, so a person standing in the open will have a more serious wound from a non FMJ bullet than a FMJ bullet. So, the choice is simple:

•   A bullet that does maximum damage, per inch of wound path, but over a shorter wound path, of something like two feet.
Or:
•   A bullet that does less damage along the wound path, per inch of the wound path, but provides a longer wound path.

In modern warfare, soldiers are not always standing in the open. They may be hiding behind barriers, like trees, wood, maybe even bodies of horses or people. A non FMJ bullet might fail to even wound a soldier behind such a barrier while a FMJ bullet might still reach him.

In the American Civil War, both sides used highly destructive bullets, relatively slow velocity, but soft lead bullets that would always deform on impact, expand and make terrible wounds, often requiring amputation of a limb. Amputation would still be the standard treatment to this day, even with modern medical techniques, were such bullets still used in warfare. But these bullets were not always effective. A common story of the Civil War is that a smaller force would first reach a vital crossroad, maybe only a few minutes ahead of a larger enemy force. With only a few minutes to prepare, they could quickly tear down rail post fences, pile up the wood as a barrier and use that to hide behind. This would prove to be an effective barrier. This would have been a waste of time and effort if the enemy force employed more modern weapons, firing FMJ bullets, like the Carcano, because those bullets would have passed through the wooden barrier and continued on to wound the defending soldiers.

Modern armies are willing to use a more humane bullet if it greatly increases the odds of at least wounding an enemy soldier.

So, as it turns out a less humane bullet is not necessarily the more effective military bullet.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Joe Elliott on August 04, 2021, 05:40:58 AM

The Carcano appears to be inappropriate because the iron sights could not be adjusted for an exact range. They were permanent set to provide a proper aim at a stationary target exactly 200 meters, or 218 yards away. So, the rifle would tend to miss high at ranges under 218 yards. It would miss high by about 4.5 inches at 63 yards, the second shot at z222. And miss high by about 5.5 inches at 88 yards, the third shot at z312.

But this would actually help Oswald, because he was firing down on a target moving away from him. With a rifle adjusted properly for each distance, at a stationary target, with the moving target a rifle would tend to miss low by 6.2 inches with the second (z222) shot, and miss low by 3.8 inches with the third (z312) shot.

So, the two ‘errors’:

1.   error from the non-adjusting iron sights
2.   error from the moving target

largely cancel each other out.

For the second shot at z222, Oswald should, in theory miss low by (6.2 - 4.5 ) or 1.7 inches.
For the third shot at z312, Oswald should, in theory miss high by (5.5 – 3.8 ) or 1.7 inches.

So, by a quirk, while one might expect Oswald to miss the moving center of the head by four to five inches (which still might be fatal), the iron sights provide a lead that should cause him to hit within two inches of where the rifle is aimed at the time of its firing.

There is no need for Oswald to remember to aim at the top of the head, not at the center of the head. And this might be more difficult than it would appear, because the end of the barrel of the rifle would largely block his view of the head if he needed to aim just above it. But no problem in he just has to aim at the center of the head. I suspect that Oswald knew he had a rifle that would tend to miss high at ranges under 200 meters, but this is what he needed because the target was continuously rising.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 04, 2021, 05:46:11 PM

The Commission thought it was possible to use the scope, even if it was off-zero at 100 yards as it was during the FBI tests. The distance from the Z313 head shot to the Sniper's Nest window as 218 feet (72.67 yards).

    "Frazier later fired four groups of three shots at a distance of 100 yards
     in 5.9, 6.2, 5.6, and 6.5 seconds. Each series of three shots landed
     within areas ranging in diameter from 3 to 5 inches. Although all of the
     shots were a few inches high and to the right of the target., this was
     because of a defect in the scope which was recognized by the FBI
     agents and which they could have compensated for if they were aiming
     to hit a bull's-eye. They were instead firing to determine how rapidly the
     weapon could be fired and the area within which three shots could be
     placed. Frazier testified that while he could not tell when the defect
     occurred, but that a person familiar with the weapon could compensate
     for it. Moreover, the defect was one which would have assisted the
     assassin aiming at a target which was moving away. Frazier said,
     "The fact that the crosshairs are set high would actually compensate
     for any lead which had to be taken. So that if you aimed with this
     weapon as it actually was received at the laboratory, it would not be
     necessary to take any lead whatsoever in order to hit the intended object.
     The scope would accomplish the lead for you." Frazier added that the
     scope would cause a slight miss to the right. It should be noted, however,
     that the President's car was curving slightly to the right when the third
     shot was fired.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
     Based on these tests the experts agreed that the assassination rifle was
     an accurate weapon. Simmons described it as "quite accurate," in fact,
     as accurate as current military rifles. Frazier testified that the rifle was
     accurate, that it had less recoil than the average military rifle and that one
     would not have to be an expert marksman to have accomplished the
     assassination with the weapon which was used.

     Conclusion
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
     The various tests showed that the Mannlicher-Carcano was an accurate
     rifle and that the use of a four-power scope was a substantial aid to rapid,
     accurate firing."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
          — Warren Report, pp.194-195

---

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(https://cdn.britannica.com/21/135621-050-D54DA507/Members-report-Warren-Commission-Pres-Lyndon-Johnson-1964.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(Yet another example of the exemplary unbiased work contributed by the Warren Commission and the federal agencies.)

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 04, 2021, 08:35:09 PM

Quote from: Joe Elliott on August 04, 2021, 05:40:58 AM

The Carcano appears to be inappropriate because the iron sights could not be adjusted for an exact range. They were permanent set to provide a proper aim at a stationary target exactly 200 meters, or 218 yards away. So, the rifle would tend to miss high at ranges under 218 yards. It would miss high by about 4.5 inches at 63 yards, the second shot at z222. And miss high by about 5.5 inches at 88 yards, the third shot at z312.

But this would actually help Oswald, because he was firing down on a target moving away from him. With a rifle adjusted properly for each distance, at a stationary target, with the moving target a rifle would tend to miss low by 6.2 inches with the second (z222) shot, and miss low by 3.8 inches with the third (z312) shot.

So, the two ‘errors’:

1.   error from the non-adjusting iron sights
2.   error from the moving target

largely cancel each other out.

For the second shot at z222, Oswald should, in theory miss low by (6.2 - 4.5 ) or 1.7 inches.
For the third shot at z312, Oswald should, in theory miss high by (5.5 – 3.8 ) or 1.7 inches.

So, by a quirk, while one might expect Oswald to miss the moving center of the head by four to five inches (which still might be fatal), the iron sights provide a lead that should cause him to hit within two inches of where the rifle is aimed at the time of its firing.

There is no need for Oswald to remember to aim at the top of the head, not at the center of the head. And this might be more difficult than it would appear, because the end of the barrel of the rifle would largely block his view of the head if he needed to aim just above it. But no problem in he just has to aim at the center of the head. I suspect that Oswald knew he had a rifle that would tend to miss high at ranges under 200 meters, but this is what he needed because the target was continuously rising.

'The Carcano appears to be inappropriate because the iron sights could not be adjusted for an exact range'
> Pretty sure JFK & JBC would find the Carcano all too appropriate.  ;)
> Are you saying that Oswald needed to adjust his sights every time he took a shot? Are you saying that if an enemy soldier pops up right in front of you, you should ask him to wait a moment while you adjust your sights? Haha.. shades of Monty Python right there.

DAVE EMARY EXCERPT
____________________________________________________________

The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
5.5” – 6.5” at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
meters. The Carcano’s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 – 350 meters. This is
about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
his enemy for ranges out to 220 – 230 meters. How much more simple and
effective could it have been made.

____________________________________________________________


----------------
BONUS TIP for
HIGH SCHOOL
DROP-OUTS (aka
OSWALD ARSE
KISSERS (aka
OAKers)  ;D
-----------------
> Placed emphasis
on Emary's abundantly
obvious point that no
re-sighting is needed
out to the 200 meter
(Carcano factory-default)
battle zero.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Joe Elliott on August 05, 2021, 09:26:26 AM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 04, 2021, 08:35:09 PM

'The Carcano appears to be inappropriate because the iron sights could not be adjusted for an exact range'
> Pretty sure JFK & JBC would find the Carcano all too appropriate.  ;)
> Are you saying that Oswald needed to adjust his sights every time he took a shot? Are you saying that if an enemy soldier pops up right in front of you, you should ask him to wait a moment while you adjust your sights? Haha.. shades of Monty Python right there.

I said “appears to be inappropriate”. Not “was inappropriate”. That is, a very superficial analysis says, it gives bad aim at 63 and 88 yards. Which is true. For a stationary target. But for the moving target, 13 mph at 63 yards for the second shot, 8 mph at 88 yards for the third shot, at the angles of Dealey Plaza, it provides a very good lead.

I wonder if there is any other rifle, in the world, with fixed iron sights, that would provide the appropriate lead, within 2 inches for both shots. Perhaps there is but I never heard of such a rifle. A good little research project for the CTers, perhaps.

And yes, your right. A rifle with adjustable sights could not have been used in that situation, at z222 and z312, with only 4.9 seconds to adjust the sights and aim the third shot.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 05, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

Quote from: Joe Elliott on August 05, 2021, 09:26:26 AM

I said “appears to be inappropriate”. Not “was inappropriate”. That is, a very superficial analysis says, it gives bad aim at 63 and 88 yards. Which is true. For a stationary target. But for the moving target, 13 mph at 63 yards for the second shot, 8 mph at 88 yards for the third shot, at the angles of Dealey Plaza, it provides a very good lead.

I wonder if there is any other rifle, in the world, with fixed iron sights, that would provide the appropriate lead, within 2 inches for both shots. Perhaps there is but I never heard of such a rifle. A good little research project for the CTers, perhaps.

And yes, your right. A rifle with adjustable sights could not have been used in that situation, at z222 and z312, with only 4.9 seconds to adjust the sights and aim the third shot.

I understand that the twofer was essentially a stationary target (no panning necessary) for a few moments, due to the 3-degree downslope along Elm. Don't forget; Oswald had papered 48 out 50 in rapid-fire marine training at a much greater distance.

Additionally, I wonder if Oswald had actually aimed 'center-mass' for the z222 twofer, because the entry at the neck/back junction was just 2" off center horizontally, and practically dead-center vertically.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 05, 2021, 02:50:37 PM

Nutter bonanza!

Despite extensive survey of the Walker property, Oswald, firing his precision instrument from less than 100 feet, couldn't even hit a sitting target.

ROFL

So, are you admitting that you believe it was LHO who made the attempt on Walker’s life?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Richard Smith on August 05, 2021, 05:28:49 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 05, 2021, 02:50:37 PM

Nutter bonanza!

Despite extensive survey of the Walker property, Oswald, firing his precision instrument from less than 100 feet, couldn't even hit a sitting target.

ROFL

Only because the bullet deflected off a wooden frame on the window.  Maybe read up on the case.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Joe Elliott on August 05, 2021, 05:35:04 PM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 05, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

I understand that the twofer was essentially a stationary target (no panning necessary) for a few moments, due to the 3-degree downslope along Elm. Don't forget; Oswald had papered 48 out 50 in rapid-fire marine training at a much greater distance.

Close but not quite. Last year I wrote an article on how to calculate the angular speed of the target, as seen from any sniper position. A link to this post is shown below:


How to Calculate the Angular Velocities of a Target as Seen from any Hypothetical Sniper Position.

https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2640.0.html (https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2640.0.html)


A link to a summary of the angular velocities is shown below:

https://ibb.co/jR68G6j (https://ibb.co/jR68G6j)

The overall angular velocity for Oswald’s three shots were:

First shot at z-153,   4.8   degrees per second.
Second shot at z-222,   1.9   degrees per second.
Third shot at z-312,   0.6   degrees per second.

So, if anything under 2 degrees per second is considered “essentially a stationary target” then, yes, the second and third shots were at essentially stationary targets.

By the way, a hypothetical shot at z-312, from either the Grassy Knoll, either from the two “Badgeman” or “Gunsmoke” locations result in an angular speed of the target of 6.2 and 5.1 degrees per second, even more difficult that the 4.8 degrees per sec. first shot from Oswald, which caused him to miss not just JFK but the entire limousine.

And as I mentioned before, the iron sights of the Carcano, by sheer chance, provide almost the perfect lead for the moving target at the speed of the limousine at those angles, within two inches for both the second and third shot. A very unfortunate fluke.

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 05, 2021, 02:01:27 PM

Additionally, I wonder if Oswald had actually aimed 'center-mass' for the z222 twofer, because the entry at the neck/back junction was just 2" off center horizontally, and practically dead-center vertically.

Pure speculation on your part. But, pretty good speculation. I think you may be right. He might have been aiming at the center mass target, just as he was taught in the Marines, to maximize the chances of at least wounding the target. In combat, a serious wound is about as good as a kill. In some ways better, requiring other soldiers to withdraw from the battle temporarily to move the wounded soldier away from the front line.

Engaging in pure speculation on my part, I think it is possible that:

First shot: Oswald unwisely fired the first very difficult shot, with the target having way too high an angular velocity, just before JFK disappeared behind the tree for a couple of seconds, from z-166 to z-206. And missed the limousine. This unwise first shot may have been brought on by the fear that if he waits until after the tree, the standing secret service agents in the follow up car, following right behind, might block any shot. As it turned out, they didn’t. But this would be hard to tell just from eyeballing the scene from the sixth-floor window.

Second shot: Totally rattled by that bad first shot, Oswald may have just been going for some sort of wound, maximized his odds of doing so by just shooting at the center of the visible target, similar in size and shape to the targets he practiced shooing at with the Marines at 200, 300 and 500 yards, and got a hit very near the center, right at the base of the neck upper torso area.

Third shot: Calmed down a bit after getting a hit, and with the angular speed of the target slowing down a great deal further, and took an extra second to aim at the center of the head, where his shot was again pretty accurate.

Certainly, the locations of the wounds do suggest this scenario better than any other.

But it is also possible he was just aiming at the center of the head the whole time. The 1.9 degrees per second might have been enough to throw him off some causing a miss of about 8 inches, which unfortunately for JFK, Oswald missed low, instead of missing high or left or right, resulting in a serious wound to the lower neck.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 05, 2021, 07:12:41 PM

My 'I wonder' pretty much renders your 'pure speculation on your part' remark unnecessary & redundant. Just sayin'.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 05, 2021, 07:25:34 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 05, 2021, 05:18:34 PM

Of cause not (believing).

Simply pointing out the stupidity of WC cheerleaders.

Even commie hater Walker recognised how desparate the Commission was.

And I was simply pointing out the folly of your “logic”.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 05, 2021, 07:28:09 PM

----------------
BONUS TIP for
HIGH SCHOOL
DROP-OUTS (aka
OSWALD ARSE
KISSERS/aka
OAKers)  ;D
-----------------

'Of cause not'
https://ielts.studyhorror.com/d/cause-or-course

Which one is correct 'of course' or 'of cause'? This has been confusing many students and new English learners. 'Of cause' is not a proper phrase. Therefore, we can't use of cause as a separate phrase. It's not correct.

----------------------
'studyhorror' indeed
Hahahahahahaahaa

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 05, 2021, 07:52:15 PM

Quote from: Charles Collins on August 05, 2021, 04:54:59 PM

So, are you admitting that you believe it was LHO who made the attempt on Walker’s life?

What solid proof do you have that PROVES an attempt was made to kill Walker?   

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 05, 2021, 09:31:47 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 05, 2021, 09:07:37 PM

Fair enough.

I wasn't aware you had unchecked the Walker box.

Most Nutters buy the whole Warren cover-up package of lies and deception.

Where did you get the idea that I had unchecked the Walker box?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 05, 2021, 10:19:24 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 05, 2021, 09:07:37 PM

Fair enough.

I wasn't aware you had unchecked the Walker box.

Most Nutters buy the whole Warren cover-up package of lies and deception.

Most LNers think the first shot (most believe it to be a miss) occurred before a point in the Zapruder film much earlier than that suggested by the Warren Commission. There's also some confidence in the SBT occurring in the early-Z220s, something the Commission didn't argue. The Odio Sisters claim and Ruby at Parkland are considered by some LNers as plausible.

Beyond the Commission, most LNers believe the more-refined ballistics analysis and 3D recreation confirm the SBT and head shot. The work of the HSCA and Professor Hany Farid proved the Backyard Photos were authentic.

What do the CTs have? Public opinion based on most people not examining the case. Photos of varying resolution and time intervals that "show" two different Lees, Marguerites and Babushka Ladies. Ruby lookalike shooting Oswald. Greer shooting Kennedy. Vicki Adams doing Olympic-style sprinting in three-inch heels. Endless semantics about clipboards, the lunchroom encounter and the Man in the Doorway. Being the laughingstock of the Internet.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 06, 2021, 12:19:58 AM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 05, 2021, 10:23:58 PM

Wasn't the Walker bullet steel jacketed?

Mr. EISENBERG - Can you think of any reason why someone might have called this a steel-jacketed bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; except that some individuals commonly refer to rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact just have a copper-alloy jacket.

 Thumb1:

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 06, 2021, 12:27:55 AM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 05, 2021, 10:19:24 PM

Most LNers think the first shot (most believe it to be a miss) occurred before a point in the Zapruder film much earlier than that suggested by the Warren Commission. There's also some confidence in the SBT occurring in the early-Z220s, something the Commission didn't argue. The Odio Sisters claim and Ruby at Parkland are considered by some LNers as plausible.

Beyond the Commission, most LNers believe the more-refined ballistics analysis and 3D recreation confirm the SBT and head shot. The work of the HSCA and Professor Hany Farid proved the Backyard Photos were authentic.

What do the CTs have? Public opinion based on most people not examining the case. Photos of varying resolution and time intervals that "show" two different Lees, Marguerites and Babushka Ladies. Ruby lookalike shooting Oswald. Greer shooting Kennedy. Vicki Adams doing Olympic-style sprinting in three-inch heels. Endless semantics about clipboards, the lunchroom encounter and the Man in the Doorway. Being the laughingstock of the Internet.

Yep, that sums it up, the WC/HSCA supporters endorse science and deductive reasoning whereas the CT's believe in Voodoo and extreme paranoia.

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 06, 2021, 01:00:16 AM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 05, 2021, 07:52:15 PM

What solid proof do you have that PROVES an attempt was made to kill Walker?

The same camera that took Oswald family photos and the backyard photos also took multiple photos of the Walker residence about a month before the attempted assassination.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyNDmmVz/Walker-Home-by-LHO.jpg)

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/walk4.jpg)

In Oswald's possession was a bus map that had large cross on Walkers house.

(https://i.postimg.cc/63tNQRTC/ce-1013-map-walker.jpg)

At about the same time Oswald penned a letter to Marina in what to do after Oswald was captured.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tg9rZztR/ce1.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrVmQF8Y/ce1b.jpg)

The window frame that deflected the Walker bullet.

(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce1007.jpg)

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 06, 2021, 06:29:41 AM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 06, 2021, 12:19:58 AM

Mr. EISENBERG - Can you think of any reason why someone might have called this a steel-jacketed bullet?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; except that some individuals commonly refer to rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact just have a copper-alloy jacket.

LOL.  Who are these individuals who commonly do this?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 06, 2021, 06:30:52 AM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 06, 2021, 01:00:16 AM

The same camera that took Oswald family photos and the backyard photos also took multiple photos of the Walker residence about a month before the attempted assassination.

Great - convict the camera then.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Richard Smith on August 06, 2021, 07:32:58 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 06, 2021, 07:43:01 AM

Awesome idea by Oswald not to date the letter or name the target.

Then he could reuse the letter whenever he felt like assassinating somebody.

Um, where did he leave it on the 22nd?

Or maybe he was smarter than yourself (no difficult task).  Why would he need to "name the target" or "date the letter." HA HA HA.  He is telling his wife what to do if he is arrested or killed.   So now think real hard.  What was Oswald doing at this time that might lead to his arrest or murder that night?  Was his typing class that dangerous?  Weak sauce.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 06, 2021, 09:06:47 PM

But somehow "Richard" knows that an unsigned undated letter in Russian that doesn't mention Walker or shooting is definitely about Oswald shooting Walker.

 ::)

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 06, 2021, 10:40:10 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 06, 2021, 07:43:01 AM

Awesome idea by Oswald not to date the letter or name the target.

Then he could reuse the letter whenever he felt like assassinating somebody.

Um, where did he leave it on the 22nd?

If I remember correctly, Marina said that she retained the letter after the Walker incident. So, it appears that LHO would have had to write another one for the JFK assassination. By then, Marina was staying with Ruth and the contents of a similar letter would need to be revised accordingly or just not be necessary, because Ruth would be able to assist Marina.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on August 07, 2021, 12:06:42 AM

Quote from: Richard Smith on August 06, 2021, 07:32:58 PM

Or maybe he was smarter than yourself (no difficult task).  Why would he need to "name the target" or "date the letter." HA HA HA.  He is telling his wife what to do if he is arrested or killed.   So now think real hard.  What was Oswald doing at this time that might lead to his arrest or murder that night?  Was his typing class that dangerous?  Weak sauce.

I can't image this this normal, well adjusted person shown below would try and shoot a perceived "fascist".

Just to add, item #11 in the note that Marina found reads:

"If I am alive and taken prisoner, the city jail is at the end of the bridge we always used to cross when we went to town (the very beginning of town after the bridge)."

This is where we get the "So that proves he shot at Walker?" response. Besides, the photo is fake, right?

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/4d/17/1f4d1790d39f360402c02ea8bfcf1bfa.jpg)

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Richard Smith on August 07, 2021, 01:23:20 AM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 07, 2021, 12:06:42 AM

I can't image this this normal, well adjusted person shown below would try and shoot a perceived "fascist".

Just to add, item #11 in the note that Marina found reads:

"If I am alive and taken prisoner, the city jail is at the end of the bridge we always used to cross when we went to town (the very beginning of town after the bridge)."

This is where we get the "So that proves he shot at Walker?" response. Besides, the photo is fake, right?

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/4d/17/1f4d1790d39f360402c02ea8bfcf1bfa.jpg)

Yes, Oswald writes a letter instructing Marina on what she should do in case he is arrested or killed.  Comes home and tells her that he just shot Gen. Walker.  Has recon photos of Walker's home.  But CTers are claiming there is somehow doubt because Oswald did not specify in a letter that might later be used against him his "target" and "date" the letter!!! HA HA HA.  You can't make that up.  I'm surprised they didn't suggest that he get it notarized.   Amazing.  You have to hope these folks are just playing a game and not serious.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 07, 2021, 02:35:44 AM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 07, 2021, 12:06:42 AM

I can't image this this normal, well adjusted person shown below would try and shoot a perceived "fascist".

Just to add, item #11 in the note that Marina found reads:

"If I am alive and taken prisoner, the city jail is at the end of the bridge we always used to cross when we went to town (the very beginning of town after the bridge)."

This is where we get the "So that proves he shot at Walker?" response. Besides, the photo is fake, right?

(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1f/4d/17/1f4d1790d39f360402c02ea8bfcf1bfa.jpg)

Quote

I can't image this this normal, well adjusted person shown below would try and shoot a perceived "fascist".

CT's have always been reticent to look into who Oswald actually was and what motivated him, and the few CTs who do take the effort to examine Oswald's life, want to write off all of his actions as being part of some overall plot. For instance, Oswald defected from America because he was a Government agent and later for some reason the Government thought it would be a good idea to have a man with a direct connection with their organization to be their designated "Patsy" the illogical inconsistency is staggering.

Quote

Besides, the photo is fake, right?

And here we go again, the hardcore CT's realizing how incriminating the backyard photos are, have no choice but to ignore the advanced scientific techniques proving their authenticity. It's absolutely bizarre that besides some weak amateur analysis, even after all this time not one CT has ever provided any conclusive proof that these photos were faked yet they still want to believe in the impossible.

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 07, 2021, 03:20:40 AM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 07, 2021, 02:35:44 AM

CT's have always been reticent to look into who Oswald actually was and what motivated him, and the few CTs who do take the effort to examine Oswald's life, want to write off all of his actions as being part of some overall plot. For instance, Oswald defected from America because he was a Government agent and later for some reason the Government thought it would be a good idea to have a man with a direct connection with their organization to be their designated "Patsy" the illogical inconsistency is staggering.

And here we go again, the hardcore CT's realizing how incriminating the backyard photos are, have no choice but to ignore the advanced scientific techniques proving their authenticity. It's absolutely bizarre that besides some weak amateur analysis, even after all this time not one CT has ever provided any conclusive proof that these photos were faked yet they still want to believe in the impossible.

JohnM

--------------
THE REALITY
--------------

Oswald: 'I'm just a PATSY PANSY!'

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 07, 2021, 12:53:34 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 07, 2021, 04:53:57 AM

Right.

So he gave Ruth the key to the mailbox, just in case.

Is that what you're saying?

No, I was just pointing out the folly of your question about where did he leave the letter on the 22nd. That’s all I was saying.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 07, 2021, 04:53:46 PM

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 07, 2021, 02:02:40 PM

Right, so to you it makes perfect sense that Marina was allowed to keep the letter implicating him in the Walker shooting?

When you consider that LHO apparently kept some of the photos of the Walker residence. And, if I remember correctly, that Marina reportedly said that she hid the letter. It appears to me that LHO didn’t necessarily “allow” it; rather it was her will possibly against his nonchalant attitude. And it appears that she won.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on August 07, 2021, 05:50:49 PM

Quote from: Charles Collins on August 07, 2021, 04:53:46 PM

When you consider that LHO apparently kept some of the photos of the Walker residence. And, if I remember correctly, that Marina reportedly said that she hid the letter. It appears to me that LHO didn’t necessarily “allow” it; rather it was her will possibly against his nonchalant attitude. And it appears that she won.

Marina's explanation about the note:

Mr. RANKIN. Did he ask you to return the note to him?
Mrs. OSWALD. He forgot about it. But apparently after that he thought that what he had written in his book might be proof against him, and he destroyed it.
Mr. RANKIN. That is this book that you have just referred to in which he had the Walker house picture?
Mrs. OSWALD. There was a notebook, yes, that is the one.
Mr. RANKIN. What did you do with the note that he had left for you after you talked about it and said you were going to keep it?
Mrs. OSWALD. I had it among my things in a cookbook. But I have two--I don't remember in which.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 08, 2021, 06:32:44 PM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 07, 2021, 03:20:40 AM

--------------
THE REALITY
--------------

Oswald: 'I'm just a PATSY PANSY!'

Quote from: Otto Beck on August 07, 2021, 04:53:57 AM

Right.

So he gave Ruth the key to the mailbox, just in case.

Is that what you're saying?

LNer's have always been reticent to look into who Oswald actually was and what motivated him, and the few LNer's who do take the effort to examine Oswald's life, want to write off all of his actions as being some simple minded nut who just happened to fall through the iron curtain.... and then re-emerge from behind the iron curtain all by himself without any assistance from anybody.    ( A person has to be very gullible and naive to believe that) 


"For instance, Oswald defected from America because he was a Government agent and later for some reason the Government thought it would be a good idea to have a man with a direct connection with their organization to be their designated "Patsy" the illogical inconsistency is staggering.".....  J. Mytton

Isn't it amazing that LHO ( a "turncoat traitor" ) was issued a draft card while in Minsk, after he "defected" that rated him A_1 for reenlistment in the Marine Corps...And Lee continued to proudly wear his Marine Corp ring right up to the day he was murdered while in the custody of the Dallas Police.......






 

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 08, 2021, 08:32:05 PM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 08, 2021, 06:32:44 PM

LNer's have always been reticent to look into who Oswald actually was and what motivated him, and the few LNer's who do take the effort to examine Oswald's life, want to write off all of his actions as being some simple minded nut who just happened to fall through the iron curtain.... and then re-emerge from behind the iron curtain all by himself without any assistance from anybody.    ( A person has to be very gullible and naive to believe that) 


"For instance, Oswald defected from America because he was a Government agent and later for some reason the Government thought it would be a good idea to have a man with a direct connection with their organization to be their designated "Patsy" the illogical inconsistency is staggering.".....  J. Mytton

Isn't it amazing that LHO ( a "turncoat traitor" ) was issued a draft card while in Minsk, after he "defected" that rated him A_1 for reenlistment in the Marine Corps...And Lee continued to proudly wear his Marine Corp ring right up to the day he was murdered while in the custody of the Dallas Police.......

Poll: 68% Of Americans Believe Lee Harvey Oswald Acted Like A**hole
https://www.theonion.com/poll-68-of-americans-believe-lee-harvey-oswald-acted-1819885391

WASHINGTON—More than 50 years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a Gallup poll published Thursday revealed that 68 percent of Americans now believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted like a total a*shole. “Remarkably, our polling data reveal that more than two-thirds of U.S. citizens are now convinced that Oswald acted like a complete prick in planning and carrying out the brutal shooting of JFK,” said Gallup CEO Jim Clifton, adding that of those surveyed, nearly half of respondents were sure or very sure that Oswald acted like a “huge f***ing jerk” in Dallas, attributing the shift in public perception to mounting evidence showing that camping out at the Texas Book Depository with the express intention of murdering the 35th U.S. president was “a total d*ck move.”

“Additionally, 11 percent said they initially gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, but now believe with absolute certainty that this guy was just a jackass, pure and simple."

Interestingly, 7 percent now say there might have even been a second a**hole involved in the shooting.” The survey also revealed that 18 percent of Americans were confident Oswald had acted “pretty damn cool.”

-The Onion

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 08, 2021, 09:01:59 PM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 08, 2021, 08:32:05 PM

Poll: 68% Of Americans Believe Lee Harvey Oswald Acted Like A**hole
https://www.theonion.com/poll-68-of-americans-believe-lee-harvey-oswald-acted-1819885391

WASHINGTON—More than 50 years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a Gallup poll published Thursday revealed that 68 percent of Americans now believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted like a total a*shole. “Remarkably, our polling data reveal that more than two-thirds of U.S. citizens are now convinced that Oswald acted like a complete prick in planning and carrying out the brutal shooting of JFK,” said Gallup CEO Jim Clifton, adding that of those surveyed, nearly half of respondents were sure or very sure that Oswald acted like a “huge f***ing jerk” in Dallas, attributing the shift in public perception to mounting evidence showing that camping out at the Texas Book Depository with the express intention of murdering the 35th U.S. president was “a total d*ck move.”

“Additionally, 11 percent said they initially gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, but now believe with absolute certainty that this guy was just a jackass, pure and simple."

Interestingly, 7 percent now say there might have even been a second a**hole involved in the shooting.” The survey also revealed that 18 percent of Americans were confident Oswald had acted “pretty damn cool.”

-The Onion

Verrrrry Interesting...... Now please explain how Mr Oswald managed to perform the impossible feat of striking a moving target while using a cranky old rifle with the sight mounted askew.......

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 08, 2021, 09:18:16 PM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 08, 2021, 08:32:05 PM

Poll: 68% Of Americans Believe Lee Harvey Oswald Acted Like A**hole
https://www.theonion.com/poll-68-of-americans-believe-lee-harvey-oswald-acted-1819885391

WASHINGTON—More than 50 years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a Gallup poll published Thursday revealed that 68 percent of Americans now believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted like a total a*shole. “Remarkably, our polling data reveal that more than two-thirds of U.S. citizens are now convinced that Oswald acted like a complete prick in planning and carrying out the brutal shooting of JFK,” said Gallup CEO Jim Clifton, adding that of those surveyed, nearly half of respondents were sure or very sure that Oswald acted like a “huge f***ing jerk” in Dallas, attributing the shift in public perception to mounting evidence showing that camping out at the Texas Book Depository with the express intention of murdering the 35th U.S. president was “a total d*ck move.”

“Additionally, 11 percent said they initially gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, but now believe with absolute certainty that this guy was just a jackass, pure and simple."

Interestingly, 7 percent now say there might have even been a second a**hole involved in the shooting.” The survey also revealed that 18 percent of Americans were confident Oswald had acted “pretty damn cool.”

-The Onion

Poll: 68% Of Americans Believe Lee Harvey Oswald Acted Like A**hole

Was this poll based on information presented to the public by the US government??

Of course it was.....  In other words 68% of Americans believe the official fairy tale ....But conversely ....32% of Americans still refuse to accept the official fairy tale presented to them by the government......

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 08, 2021, 09:32:23 PM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 08, 2021, 08:32:05 PM

Poll: 68% Of Americans Believe Lee Harvey Oswald Acted Like A**hole
https://www.theonion.com/poll-68-of-americans-believe-lee-harvey-oswald-acted-1819885391

WASHINGTON—More than 50 years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, a Gallup poll published Thursday revealed that 68 percent of Americans now believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted like a total a*shole. “Remarkably, our polling data reveal that more than two-thirds of U.S. citizens are now convinced that Oswald acted like a complete prick in planning and carrying out the brutal shooting of JFK,” said Gallup CEO Jim Clifton, adding that of those surveyed, nearly half of respondents were sure or very sure that Oswald acted like a “huge f***ing jerk” in Dallas, attributing the shift in public perception to mounting evidence showing that camping out at the Texas Book Depository with the express intention of murdering the 35th U.S. president was “a total d*ck move.”

“Additionally, 11 percent said they initially gave Oswald the benefit of the doubt, but now believe with absolute certainty that this guy was just a jackass, pure and simple."

Interestingly, 7 percent now say there might have even been a second a**hole involved in the shooting.” The survey also revealed that 18 percent of Americans were confident Oswald had acted “pretty damn cool.”

-The Onion

‘I Can’t Believe We Pulled It Off,’ Says Olympics Organizer Standing In Charred Crater Where Tokyo Once Was

TOKYO—Staring in wonderment as the Olympic Village, stadiums, and surrounding cityscape collapsed in upon themselves, the beaming president of the International Olympic Committee said “I can’t believe we pulled it off” while standing in the charred, smoking crater where Tokyo once was. “Despite unprecedented challenges and obstacles, we never once abandoned our mission to bring the world the 2020 Summer Games,” Thomas Bach told reporters as he walked amongst the smoldering rubble and applauded Olympic organizers, workers, and athletes who were screaming for help, many of them buried beneath several thousand tons of twisted steel and concrete that had crashed down around them. “Although we faced a yearlong delay, nothing could stop us from lighting the Olympic torch in Tokyo for the first time since 1964. To everyone who said we should have given up and gone home—look at us now!” Bach then climbed atop a large pile of bones to announce his intention to hold the Summer Olympics in Los Angeles in 2028 and Brisbane in 2032 even if those cities were completely engulfed in wildfires as a result of climate change.

 https://www.theonion.com/i-can-t-believe-we-pulled-it-off-says-olympics-organ-1847429973 (https://www.theonion.com/i-can-t-believe-we-pulled-it-off-says-olympics-organ-1847429973)

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 08, 2021, 10:29:14 PM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 08, 2021, 09:01:59 PM

Verrrrry Interesting...... Now please explain how Mr Oswald managed to perform the impossible feat of striking a moving target while using a cranky old rifle with the sight mounted askew.......

Now the iron sights are useless. ::)

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 08, 2021, 10:44:37 PM

Quote from: Charles Collins on August 08, 2021, 09:32:23 PM

‘I Can’t Believe We Pulled It Off,’ Says Olympics Organizer Standing In Charred Crater Where Tokyo Once Was

TOKYO—Staring in wonderment as the Olympic Village, stadiums, and surrounding cityscape collapsed in upon themselves, the beaming president of the International Olympic Committee said “I can’t believe we pulled it off” while standing in the charred, smoking crater where Tokyo once was. “Despite unprecedented challenges and obstacles, we never once abandoned our mission to bring the world the 2020 Summer Games,” Thomas Bach told reporters as he walked amongst the smoldering rubble and applauded Olympic organizers, workers, and athletes who were screaming for help, many of them buried beneath several thousand tons of twisted steel and concrete that had crashed down around them. “Although we faced a yearlong delay, nothing could stop us from lighting the Olympic torch in Tokyo for the first time since 1964. To everyone who said we should have given up and gone home—look at us now!” Bach then climbed atop a large pile of bones to announce his intention to hold the Summer Olympics in Los Angeles in 2028 and Brisbane in 2032 even if those cities were completely engulfed in wildfires as a result of climate change.

 https://www.theonion.com/i-can-t-believe-we-pulled-it-off-says-olympics-organ-1847429973 (https://www.theonion.com/i-can-t-believe-we-pulled-it-off-says-olympics-organ-1847429973)

Old Walt still thinks the Onion ...... poll actually happened. I posted the exact same poll a couple of years ago and he treated that seriously as well. Then when I informed him that The Onion is a spoof site he complained that people should be 'warned' when something is a spoof.

The hits just keep on coming'..

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 08, 2021, 10:47:02 PM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 08, 2021, 10:29:14 PM

Now the iron sights are useless. ::)

Jerry,...Do I have to post the news paper clipping that touted the deadly accuracy of the rifle because it was equipped with a "TELECOPC SIGHT".......   That was for us gullible "pissants"

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 01:38:50 AM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 04, 2021, 05:46:11 PM

The Commission thought it was possible to use the scope, even if it was off-zero at 100 yards as it was during the FBI tests. The distance from the Z313 head shot to the Sniper's Nest window as 218 feet (72.67 yards).

    "Frazier later fired four groups of three shots at a distance of 100 yards
     in 5.9, 6.2, 5.6, and 6.5 seconds. Each series of three shots landed
     within areas ranging in diameter from 3 to 5 inches. Although all of the
     shots were a few inches high and to the right of the target., this was
     because of a defect in the scope which was recognized by the FBI
     agents and which they could have compensated for if they were aiming
     to hit a bull's-eye. They were instead firing to determine how rapidly the
     weapon could be fired and the area within which three shots could be
     placed. Frazier testified that while he could not tell when the defect
     occurred, but that a person familiar with the weapon could compensate
     for it. Moreover, the defect was one which would have assisted the
     assassin aiming at a target which was moving away. Frazier said,
     "The fact that the crosshairs are set high would actually compensate
     for any lead which had to be taken. So that if you aimed with this
     weapon as it actually was received at the laboratory, it would not be
     necessary to take any lead whatsoever in order to hit the intended object.
     The scope would accomplish the lead for you." Frazier added that the
     scope would cause a slight miss to the right. It should be noted, however,
     that the President's car was curving slightly to the right when the third
     shot was fired.
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
     Based on these tests the experts agreed that the assassination rifle was
     an accurate weapon. Simmons described it as "quite accurate," in fact,
     as accurate as current military rifles. Frazier testified that the rifle was
     accurate, that it had less recoil than the average military rifle and that one
     would not have to be an expert marksman to have accomplished the
     assassination with the weapon which was used.

     Conclusion
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
     The various tests showed that the Mannlicher-Carcano was an accurate
     rifle and that the use of a four-power scope was a substantial aid to rapid,
     accurate firing."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
          — Warren Report, pp.194-195

---

(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(https://cdn.britannica.com/21/135621-050-D54DA507/Members-report-Warren-Commission-Pres-Lyndon-Johnson-1964.jpg)
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
(Yet another example of the exemplary unbiased work contributed by the Warren Commission and the federal agencies.)

 I assume this is in the open air and nothing resembling the conditions in the snipers nest?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 09, 2021, 02:22:05 AM

Quote from: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 01:38:50 AM

I assume this is in the open air and nothing resembling the conditions in the snipers nest?

Wouldn't being in the "open air" and exposed to the elements be more of a hindrance than being tucked away safe and sound inside?

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 02:30:22 AM

 By all means show off a little and make me look the fool with a demonstration of those roomy and cozy snipers nest conditions and show how much easier that is Maybe even serve hot chocolate

 I thought it was reenactment of JFK shooting not the battle of Stalingrad

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 02:40:16 AM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 08, 2021, 10:44:37 PM

Old Walt still thinks the Onion ...... poll actually happened. I posted the exact same poll a couple of years ago and he treated that seriously as well. Then when I informed him that The Onion is a spoof site he complained that people should be 'warned' when something is a spoof.

The hits just keep on coming'..

 I thought all your posts were spoofs

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Charles Collins on August 09, 2021, 03:45:19 AM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 08, 2021, 10:44:37 PM

Old Walt still thinks the Onion ...... poll actually happened. I posted the exact same poll a couple of years ago and he treated that seriously as well. Then when I informed him that The Onion is a spoof site he complained that people should be 'warned' when something is a spoof.

The hits just keep on coming'..

I was trying to envision the written poll questions and said to myself, nah that has to be a joke. So I clicked on the link out of curiosity.

 Reminded me of an event back in the mid seventies where some college students actually printed a run of newspapers that looked like the real thing and placed them in some of the vending boxes that were around town. The large bold headline read “ HELL FREEZES OVER “. They created several funny stories too.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 09, 2021, 03:52:51 AM

Quote from: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 02:30:22 AM

By all means show off a little and make me look the fool with a demonstration of those roomy and cozy snipers nest conditions and show how much easier that is Maybe even serve hot chocolate

 I thought it was reenactment of JFK shooting not the battle of Stalingrad

Yes, And while telling us about the conditions in the "Sniper's Nest" please explain how the sniper was able to decline the muzzle of the rifle down onto Elm street while resting the rifle on top of that stack of boxes while he was sitting on a box behind that stack of boxes......    How'd he do that???   Hmmm..... 

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 09, 2021, 09:06:50 AM

re OP

(https://i.postimg.cc/6qsXZCP6/POSTCARD-6-5-X-52.png)
BILL CHAPMAN

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 09, 2021, 09:24:28 AM

re OP

(https://i.postimg.cc/gkHF79qF/LITTLE-TRIGGER.png)
BILL CHAPMAN

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 09, 2021, 02:16:57 PM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 09, 2021, 03:52:51 AM

Yes, And while telling us about the conditions in the "Sniper's Nest" please explain how the sniper was able to decline the muzzle of the rifle down onto Elm street while resting the rifle on top of that stack of boxes while he was sitting on a box behind that stack of boxes......    How'd he do that???   Hmmm.....

(https://images2.imgbox.com/bc/64/qFhPoj68_o.png)

(https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339097/m1/1/med_res/) (http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He) (https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338712/m1/1/med_res/)

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 03:55:01 PM

Odd that none of your fancy diagrams actually show the perspective from the shooter out the window towards the street

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 09, 2021, 04:52:26 PM

Quote from: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 03:55:01 PM

Odd that none of your fancy diagrams actually show the perspective from the shooter out the window towards the street

More odd...... none of the drawings depict the scene that Mooney saw when he first entered that cubby hole ....

The boxes were not placed as Mr Organ shows them.....  Very deceptive and dishonest.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 09, 2021, 05:17:02 PM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 09, 2021, 04:52:26 PM

More odd...... none of the drawings depict the scene that Mooney saw when he first entered that cubby hole ....

The boxes were not placed as Mr Organ shows them.....  Very deceptive and dishonest.

Hey Oddwalt, put up the images that depict Mooney's description.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 09, 2021, 05:26:55 PM

Quote from: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 03:55:01 PM

Odd that none of your fancy diagrams actually show the perspective from the shooter out the window towards the street

Why would that be odd?

---

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 09, 2021, 05:17:02 PM

Hey Oddwalt, put up the images that depict Mooney's description.

Yeah, I'd love to see what Ten-Watt is getting at. The 3D reconstruction is based on the two Crime Scene Photos taken before the boxes were moved. There's loads of clearance between the top of Box A and the raised window sill.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/07/5d/QnkTchgu_o.jpg)

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 09, 2021, 05:51:43 PM

Quote from: Matt Grantham on August 09, 2021, 03:55:01 PM

Odd that none of your fancy diagrams actually show the perspective from the shooter out the window towards the street

Ah, yet another Odd-wald arse kisser revealed.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 09, 2021, 06:05:52 PM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 09, 2021, 05:26:55 PM

Why would that be odd?

---

Yeah, I'd love to see what Ten-Watt is getting at. The 3D reconstruction is based on the two Crime Scene Photos taken before the boxes were moved. There's loads of clearance between the top of Box A and the raised window sill.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/07/5d/QnkTchgu_o.jpg)

I can't wait for one of these amateur dim-bulbs to put up their own 'diagrams' of the scene... like Ernie who had naked guys in the limo and effeminate shooters in tights.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 09, 2021, 07:54:08 PM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 09, 2021, 05:26:55 PM

Why would that be odd?

---

Yeah, I'd love to see what Ten-Watt is getting at. The 3D reconstruction is based on the two Crime Scene Photos taken before the boxes were moved. There's loads of clearance between the top of Box A and the raised window sill.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/07/5d/QnkTchgu_o.jpg)

(https://images2.imgbox.com/07/5d/QnkTchgu_o.jpg)

When Mooney first entered the cubby hole there were three rolling readers boxes stacked three feet high, immediately behind the window ( there are many photos that show the boxes stacked there. and the shadows in the photo and the scene in Dealey Plaza outside are a time stamp showing the time to be about 1:15 )....   There was no box on the window sill at that time.....

Now,  since your drawing indicates that the center of the butt was 29 inches from the floor and the boxes were stacked 36 inches high.....The barrel would have been ELEVATED..... not declined toward Elm street .....

And as a side note.....Howard Brennan stated that the man he saw with a rifle was STANDING.....    So why don't you use an eyewitnesses sworn affidavit rather than some imaginary depiction???

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 10, 2021, 12:26:08 AM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 09, 2021, 05:26:55 PM

Why would that be odd?

---

 Why would not including the actual perspective of the shooter not be odd?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 10, 2021, 02:36:02 AM

Quote from: Matt Grantham on August 10, 2021, 12:26:08 AM

Why would not including the actual perspective of the shooter not be odd?

Because the post I was responding to was wondering how someone could fit behind the boxes, which the graphic addresses.

Should every graphic concerning the JFK assassination have a sniper's view of the head shot?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 10, 2021, 02:52:56 AM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 10, 2021, 02:36:02 AM

Because the post I was responding to was wondering how someone could fit behind the boxes, which the graphic addresses.

Should every graphic concerning the JFK assassination have a sniper's view of the head shot?

No The question was NOT whether someone could fit behind the boxes......The question is.....How could a 5'9" man sit on a box to the rear of the three foot tall stack of Rolling Readers (Sitting 5'9" man's shoulder about three feet from the floor)

Thus the rifle would actually be aimed UP...NOT declined toward Elm Street....

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 10, 2021, 03:54:46 AM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 10, 2021, 02:52:56 AM

No The question was NOT whether someone could fit behind the boxes......The question is.....How could a 5'9" man sit on a box to the rear of the three foot tall stack of Rolling Readers (Sitting 5'9" man's shoulder about three feet from the floor)

Thus the rifle would actually be aimed UP...NOT declined toward Elm Street....

    "Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as
     to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle."
(http://drive.google.com/uc?export=view&id=1j4PIpNCtZbphz0kmWxmCckNi3vDlG5He)
    "the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon"

That's only based on you twisting what Mooney said. Nice try. :P

The boxes in my 3D reconstruction match the box on the ledge in the Dillard photo and the two Crime Lab photos taken before anything was moved. So the box on the window ledge wasn't moved.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 10, 2021, 07:32:55 AM

Oswald did not shoot while seated on the box away from the window: He had to be right at the window in order to be seen from the street by Brennan & Euins while taking a knee and firing downrange.

Images are from Stephen King's '11.22.63'
Oswald is played by Daniel Webber

(https://i.postimg.cc/DfsyvLtm/SN-POSTCARD-001.png)
Oswald awaits the motorcade

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGT2hvcD/SN-POSTCARD-OO2.png)
Oswald reacts to motorcade arrival at Houston

(https://i.postimg.cc/7hpXGr1T/SN-POSTCARD-003.png) 
Oswald takes a knee and tracks Kennedy at SN window

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 11, 2021, 01:37:16 AM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 10, 2021, 07:32:55 AM

Oswald did not shoot while seated on the box away from the window: He had to be right at the window in order to be seen from the street by Brennan & Euins while taking a knee and firing downrange.

Images are from Stephen King's '11.22.63'
Oswald is played by Daniel Webber

(https://i.postimg.cc/DfsyvLtm/SN-POSTCARD-001.png) 
Oswald awaits the motorcade

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGT2hvcD/SN-POSTCARD-OO2.png)
Oswald reacts to motorcade arrival at Houston

(https://i.postimg.cc/7hpXGr1T/SN-POSTCARD-003.png) 
Oswald takes a knee and tracks Kennedy at SN window

Oswald takes a knee and tracks Kennedy at SN window

You simply can't be honest can you Crapman?......    Brennan swore that the man he saw aiming a rifle out of a 6th floor window was STANDING at the time and bracing the rifle against the side of the window....  He was NOT kneeling.....And further more Brennan said that the man was dressed in light colored clothing possibly khaki.....Lee was wearing DARK colored clothes ( (Brown shirt and dark gray trousers) and Lee didn't even own any clothes like the clothes described by Brennan....

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 11, 2021, 01:53:24 AM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 11, 2021, 01:37:16 AM

Oswald takes a knee and tracks Kennedy at SN window

You simply can't be honest can you Crapman?......    Brennan swore that the man he saw aiming a rifle out of a 6th floor window was STANDING at the time and bracing the rifle against the side of the window....  He was NOT kneeling.....And further more Brennan said that the man was dressed in light colored clothing possibly khaki.....Lee was wearing DARK colored clothes ( (Brown shirt and dark gray trousers) and Lee didn't even own any clothes like the clothes described by Brennan....

(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce485.jpg)

     Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing.
        What do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth
        floor that you saw--standing or sitting?
     Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on
        the window sill leaning out.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 11, 2021, 02:03:45 AM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 11, 2021, 01:53:24 AM

(https://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce485.jpg)

     Mr. BELIN. I believe you said you thought the man was standing.
        What do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth
        floor that you saw--standing or sitting?
     Mr. BRENNAN. I thought they were standing with their elbows on
        the window sill leaning out.

I'm disappointed in you Mr O......  What the hell does the guys on the fifth floor have do do with Brennan's sworn statement that the man he saw was STANDING and aiming a rifle from a 6th floor window....   Don't present that crap from the liars on LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon Committee" as if changes what Brennan swore to.....And furthermore the man who Brennan saw STANDING...did NOT match the physical description of Lee Oswald .....  And the man's clothing was totally different than the clothes that Lee was wearing.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 11, 2021, 03:13:22 AM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 11, 2021, 02:03:45 AM

I'm disappointed in you Mr O......  What the hell does the guys on the fifth floor have do do with Brennan's sworn statement that the man he saw was STANDING and aiming a rifle from a 6th floor window....   

Are you kidding? If Brennan honestly mistook the sitting men on the fifth floor as "standing", then he could have done the same thing in regard to Oswald.

Quote

Don't present that crap from the liars on LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon Committee" as if changes what Brennan swore to.....

You have a problem with authority figures? Sadly, we know what that can lead to. The Commission figured out the "key" to the assassination: the Single-Bullet Theory. It must bug the h-ll out of you that no citizen-researcher will ever discover anything so crucial.

Quote

And furthermore the man who Brennan saw STANDING...did NOT match the physical description of Lee Oswald .....  And the man's clothing was totally different than the clothes that Lee was wearing.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/64/07/viath93F_o.jpg)

If parts of Oswald's shirt were sun-struck, they could appear light in tone and "khaki". (The small insets are from pictures of Oswald's shirt.)

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 11, 2021, 03:21:14 AM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 11, 2021, 03:13:22 AM

Are you kidding? If Brennan honestly mistook the sitting men on the fifth floor as "standing", then he could have done the same thing in regard to Oswald.

You have a problem with authority figures? Sadly, we know what that can lead to. The Commission figured out the "key" to the assassination: the Single-Bullet Theory. It must bug the h-ll out of you that no citizen-researcher will ever discover anything so crucial.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/64/07/viath93F_o.jpg)

If parts of Oswald's shirt were sun-struck, they could appear light in tone and "khaki". (The small insets are from pictures of Oswald's shirt.)

There's a lotta "IFS" in your post Mr O......  Why don't you try being honest and forget the IFs .... Brennan said the 165 pound man  who was dressed in the light   colored clothing was STANDING......

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 11, 2021, 03:37:01 AM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 11, 2021, 03:21:14 AM

There's a lotta "IFS" in your post Mr O......  Why don't you try being honest and forget the IFs .... Brennan said the 165 pound man  who was dressed in the light   colored clothing was STANDING......

OK. Take out the "ifs".  :P

Brennan saw Oswald "standing" in the sense he saw the men on the fifth-floor "standing". Brennan thought the shirt was light-tone and khaki because it was sun-struck.

Much better. Thank you for your contribution to improving Lone Assassin phrasing.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 11, 2021, 06:20:55 AM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 10, 2021, 07:32:55 AM

Oswald did not shoot while seated on the box away from the window: He had to be right at the window in order to be seen from the street by Brennan & Euins while taking a knee and firing downrange.

Images are from Stephen King's '11.22.63'
Oswald is played by Daniel Webber

(https://i.postimg.cc/DfsyvLtm/SN-POSTCARD-001.png)
Oswald awaits the motorcade

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGT2hvcD/SN-POSTCARD-OO2.png)
Oswald reacts to motorcade arrival at Houston

(https://i.postimg.cc/7hpXGr1T/SN-POSTCARD-003.png) 
Oswald takes a knee and tracks Kennedy at SN window

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bnvds4fZ/NOW-REMEMBER.png)
Kennedy caught dead-to-rights

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 12, 2021, 02:02:24 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dz8WJ5Dn/POSTCARD-STAND-THREE.png)
BILL CHAPMAN

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwY0TLzD/POSTCARD-STAND-ONE.png)
BILL CHAPMAN

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJgH4CgJ/POSTCARD-STAND-TWO.png)
BILL CHAPMAN

----------------
BONUS TIP for
HIGH SCHOOL
DROP-OUTS &
OSWALD ARSE
KISSERS aka
OAKers
 ;D ;D ;D
----------------
> See above

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 12, 2021, 04:26:12 AM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 06, 2021, 12:27:55 AM

Yep, that sums it up, the WC/HSCA supporters endorse science and deductive reasoning whereas the CT's believe in Voodoo and extreme paranoia.

JohnM

 We believe in using extreme paranoia with our Voodoo  or we are just extremely worried about you guys? Just trying to zero in on this

  Seems like the LNers think the school of spoon fed facts will earn them a place in the critical thinkers hall of fame

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 12, 2021, 10:25:49 AM

Quote from: Matt Grantham on August 12, 2021, 04:26:12 AM

We believe in using extreme paranoia with our Voodoo  or we are just extremely worried about you guys? Just trying to zero in on this

  Seems like the LNers think the school of spoon fed facts will earn them a place in the critical thinkers hall of fame

Quote

or we are just extremely worried about you guys?

Just because you can't handle the message, don't shoot the messenger.

Quote

Seems like the LNers think the school of spoon fed facts will earn them a place in the critical thinkers hall of fame

Thanks for unwittingly answering why I specifically specified "extreme paranoia" Hilarious, you are truly the gift that keeps on giving.

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on August 12, 2021, 04:07:14 PM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 12, 2021, 10:25:49 AM

Just because you can't handle the message, don't shoot the messenger.

Thanks for unwittingly answering why I specifically specified "extreme paranoia" Hilarious, you are truly the gift that keeps on giving.

JohnM

Yes, the FBI and Dallas Police and Secret Service and others joined up with waitresses and steamfitters and cab drivers and warehouse workers - all of this orchestrated by the nefarious "they" and "them"  - to murder the president in broad daylight in the middle of the street with hundreds of people watching - some with cameras and frame an innocent man.

Then some of the most distinguished men in America, including the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, all agreed to cover all of this up. For more than half a century.

Why would they do this? Well, Vietnam or civil rights or oil depletion allowance or something.

But the real concern is the psychological well-being of the people who don't believe this? Sorry, no.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 12, 2021, 05:10:27 PM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 12, 2021, 04:07:14 PM

Yes, the FBI and Dallas Police and Secret Service and others joined up with waitresses and steamfitters and cab drivers and warehouse workers - all of this orchestrated by the nefarious "they" and "them"  - to murder the president in broad daylight in the middle of the street with hundreds of people watching - some with cameras and frame an innocent man.

Then some of the most distinguished men in America, including the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, all agreed to cover all of this up. For more than half a century.

Why would they do this? Well, Vietnam or civil rights or oil depletion allowance or something.

But the real concern is the psychological well-being of the people who don't believe this? Sorry, no.

the real concern is the psychological well-being of the people

Or put another way.....   Most of the " distinguished men in America"  saw the danger to the country if the truth was revealed...

Had we the people have been told the truth....  would the country have been ripped apart??    The "distinguished men of America" decided to take the safe path and blame it all on a single "lone Nut" who was dead and couldn't be brought to trial.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Joe Elliott on August 13, 2021, 02:27:30 AM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 11, 2021, 06:20:55 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bnvds4fZ/NOW-REMEMBER.png)

What I like about the last ‘postcard’ is that it shows pretty clearly how one doesn’t have to use the scope to aim the rifle. The iron sights work fine, even with the scope still mounted. No need to remove the scope. And, with the scope left mounted, the rifle looks more like the tool of a dangerous assassin.

I remember some poster here claimed that using the iron sights with the scope mounted would be too awkward.

Having the scope right in front of an open eye to make a shot using the scope? Not a problem.

Having the scope right in front of the lower forehead to make a shot using the iron sights? Even less of a problem.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 13, 2021, 02:39:36 AM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 12, 2021, 04:07:14 PM

Yes, the FBI and Dallas Police and Secret Service and others joined up with waitresses and steamfitters and cab drivers and warehouse workers - all of this orchestrated by the nefarious "they" and "them"  - to murder the president in broad daylight in the middle of the street with hundreds of people watching - some with cameras and frame an innocent man.

Then some of the most distinguished men in America, including the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, all agreed to cover all of this up. For more than half a century.

Why would they do this? Well, Vietnam or civil rights or oil depletion allowance or something.

But the real concern is the psychological well-being of the people who don't believe this? Sorry, no.

 And of course the essence of truths is captured in the minds of the cultured They never explicitly told me that was the go to oracle of such things in terms of the cold objective reality in logic class and such places It might have been a good hiding place since I know I would have never considering looking to the minds of these persons for such revelations, so well done in terms of stealth suprise attack The unexpected diversion from examining the behavior of others and instead endorsing the proclamations of the entrenched based on their position in a hierarchy instead of open questioning is a bit of investigative straight jacket for some us


   The chain of custody and provenance of evidence is a great example of how question and possible investigatory avenues are shut down by an argument that insists certain supposedly fundamental facts are beyond reproach One can claim this more questions approach opens the door for some endless regression of tinier and fainter concern But it seems quite reasonable set  of baseline criteria for chain of custody and the provenience of evidence concerns

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 13, 2021, 03:42:19 AM

Quote

But the real concern is the psychological well-being of the people who don't believe this? Sorry, no.

   Am I wrong in saying the claim is to know the minds of others?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Matt Grantham on August 13, 2021, 04:47:10 AM

Quote

Yes, the FBI and Dallas Police and Secret Service and others joined up with waitresses and steamfitters and cab drivers and warehouse workers - all of this orchestrated by the nefarious "they" and "them"  - to murder the president in broad daylight in the middle of the street with hundreds of people watching - some with cameras and frame an innocent man.

 The extent of individuals listed here as being necessarily involved in a giant conspiracy theory seems a little enthusiastic I am not aware of any pivotal role of waitresses, steamfitters, cab drivers or warehouse workers It is almost a conspiracy in itself to draw such an unsupported premise of the the requirement for this conspiracy  And then the'they and them thing, there have been they and thems that turned out to actually be real people behind real  operations and deceptions for as long as people have speculated what others might be up to. Is it your position that any use of they and them  is always problematic? If you have ballistic evidence of two shooters for a victim then you know two people were involved, you can refer to them as they can't you? So i would be curious if you believe there should be no such kind of speculations about what others are doing or whether the usage of they and them is just poor semantics once one enters the realm of these type of speculations

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 13, 2021, 05:56:09 AM

Quote from: Joe Elliott on August 13, 2021, 02:27:30 AM

What I like about the last ‘postcard’ is that it shows pretty clearly how one doesn’t have to use the scope to aim the rifle. The iron sights work fine, even with the scope still mounted. No need to remove the scope. And, with the scope left mounted, the rifle looks more like the tool of a dangerous assassin.

I remember some poster here claimed that using the iron sights with the scope mounted would be too awkward.

Having the scope right in front of an open eye to make a shot using the scope? Not a problem.

Having the scope right in front of the lower forehead to make a shot using the iron sights? Even less of a problem.

Easy as pie. Piece of cake.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 13, 2021, 08:47:25 AM

Quote from: Joe Elliott on August 13, 2021, 02:27:30 AM

  And, with the scope left mounted, the rifle looks more like the tool of a dangerous assassin.

Quote

the tool of a dangerous assassin

As opposed to being only just a really nice guy assassin?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 13, 2021, 06:50:13 PM

Quote from: Jerry Freeman on August 13, 2021, 08:47:25 AM

As opposed to being only just a really nice guy assassin?

"with the scope left mounted, the rifle looks more like the tool of a dangerous assassin."

Yes that's the reason the DPD detective held the " deadly accurate rifle" up so the whole wide world could see it...

And reporters then reported about the deadly accuracy of the rifle because it had that scope.    What we didn't know was the FACT that the scope was a cheap piece of junk and it had been hastily mounted on the rifle and was mounted askew and the user couldn't have hit a 10 inch target at 50 yards bt aimimg the rifle with that scope.

The conspirators knew that most viewers were totally ignorant about rifles and scopes and they knew that the general public were suckers for colorful rhetoric....thus the general public would suck up the BS, like a thirsty camel sucks up water. 

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2021, 08:13:32 PM

Quote from: Richard Smith on August 07, 2021, 01:23:20 AM

Yes, Oswald writes a letter instructing Marina on what she should do in case he is arrested or killed.  Comes home and tells her that he just shot Gen. Walker.

Well, look who's selectively just accepting something Marina said as fact.  How cute.

Marina Oswald Porter's Statements of a Contradictory Nature (https://iacoletti.org/jfk/marina-contradications.pdf)

Quote

  Has recon photos of Walker's home.

How do you know they were his?

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2021, 08:15:15 PM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 07, 2021, 02:35:44 AM

And here we go again, the hardcore CT's realizing how incriminating the backyard photos are, have no choice but to ignore the advanced scientific techniques proving their authenticity.

"advanced scientific techniques proving their authenticity".  LOL.

The backyard photos aren't the slightest bit incriminating.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2021, 08:30:26 PM

Quote from: Jerry Organ on August 11, 2021, 03:13:22 AM

If parts of Oswald's shirt were sun-struck, they could appear light in tone and "khaki". (The small insets are from pictures of Oswald's shirt.)

So now the shooter is positioned sideways right next to the window in front of the boxes.  This just keeps getting better!

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2021, 08:32:57 PM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 12, 2021, 04:07:14 PM

Yes, the FBI and Dallas Police and Secret Service and others joined up with waitresses and steamfitters and cab drivers and warehouse workers - all of this orchestrated by the nefarious "they" and "them"  - to murder the president in broad daylight in the middle of the street with hundreds of people watching - some with cameras and frame an innocent man.

"Isn't my made-up conspiracy story ridiculous?  Therefore Oswald did it."

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 13, 2021, 08:44:35 PM

Quote from: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2021, 08:30:26 PM

So now the shooter is positioned sideways right next to the window in front of the boxes.  This just keeps getting better!

Some folks simply can't accept the facts... The fact is Howard Brennan swore that the man he saw aiming a rifle out of a sixth floor window was much heavier that the skinny Lee Oswald.....and Brennan said the man was dressed in light colored clothing , Lee never even owned any khaki clothing like that described by Brennan....   Lee was dressed in dark colored clothing that day....

But on the point about the shooter sitting ( kneeling ? squatting?) The Lner's want to say that It was Lee Oswald and he was firing from BEHIND a stack of Rolling Readers boxes....and Howard Brennan couldn't even have seen the shooter....   BUT Brennan swore that the man was STANDING and bracing the rifle against the side of the window.  So that stance negates the LNer's fantasy that Lee was sitting behind those Rolling readers boxes.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Zeon Mason on August 13, 2021, 10:57:37 PM

Also, neither Brennan, nor Amos Euins saw any scope on the rifle protruding out the window.

Neither  Bob Jackson nor Malcolm Couch saw any scope

All 4 of these “rifle seen sticking out the window” witnesses were closer to the gunman at the SE window than Arnold Rowland was to a man seen by Rowland at the SW window at 12:15 and  Rowland WAS able to see a scope.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Jerry Organ on August 14, 2021, 12:14:26 AM

Quote from: Zeon Mason on August 13, 2021, 10:57:37 PM

Also, neither Brennan, nor Amos Euins saw any scope on the rifle protruding out the window.

Neither  Bob Jackson nor Malcolm Couch saw any scope

Depends on their line-of-sight, the position of the rifle that each witness saw and how much contrast the background had relative to the scope.

If they all AGREED they saw a scope, you wouldn't be satisfied with that.

Quote

All 4 of these “rifle seen sticking out the window” witnesses were closer to the gunman at the SE window than Arnold Rowland was to a man seen by Rowland at the SW window at 12:15 and  Rowland WAS able to see a scope.

(http://www.90thidpg.us/Research/Original/ManualOfArms/Carbine/C%20-%20Port%20Arms.jpg)

Rowland saw a man "momentarily" with the rifle at "port arms". In that moment and from that distance, he saw the man's "well-combed" dark hair, shirt "unbuttoned about halfway". "There could have been a scar, if it hadn't been a dark scar". He also saw "three women" on the overpass.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 14, 2021, 12:28:44 AM

Quote from: John Iacoletti on August 13, 2021, 08:15:15 PM

"advanced scientific techniques proving their authenticity".  LOL.

The HSCA devoted 88 pages discussing the backyard photos and used photogrammetry, microscopic grain examination, lens distortion analysis, camera created artefacts, stereoscopic techniques, vanishing point inspection, shadow evaluation, etc etc  whereas the Conspiracy Believers simply say "that doesn't look right" so they must be fake.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/pdf/HSCA_Vol6_4B1_Backyard.pdf

Btw putting an "LOL" after any fact that you object to is extremely juvenile and proves absolutely nothing but it does reinforce your lack of knowledge and/or expertise, so keep it up Johnny boy!

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 14, 2021, 11:27:59 AM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 12, 2021, 04:07:14 PM

Yes, the FBI and Dallas Police and Secret Service and others joined up with waitresses and steamfitters and cab drivers and warehouse workers - all of this orchestrated by the nefarious "they" and "them"  - to murder the president in broad daylight in the middle of the street with hundreds of people watching - some with cameras and frame an innocent man.

Then some of the most distinguished men in America, including the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, all agreed to cover all of this up. For more than half a century.

Why would they do this? Well, Vietnam or civil rights or oil depletion allowance or something.

But the real concern is the psychological well-being of the people who don't believe this? Sorry, no.

'with hundreds of people watching'

The Truman Oswald Show
Except that Oswald was a bad actor and Jim Carrey won an Oscar

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on August 14, 2021, 06:34:45 PM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 14, 2021, 12:28:44 AM

The HSCA devoted 88 pages discussing the backyard photos and used photogrammetry, microscopic grain examination, lens distortion analysis, camera created artefacts, stereoscopic techniques, vanishing point inspection, shadow evaluation, etc etc  whereas the Conspiracy Believers simply say "that doesn't look right" so they must be fake.

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/pdf/HSCA_Vol6_4B1_Backyard.pdf

Btw putting an "LOL" after any fact that you object to is extremely juvenile and proves absolutely nothing but it does reinforce your lack of knowledge and/or expertise, so keep it up Johnny boy!

JohnM

Oswald just happened to have a Carcano rifle and it just happened to have a couple of notches that sorta' resembled the ones on the rifle recovered from the sniper's nest. But, no, they were different. "It doesn't look the same". The experts were wrong. Because "LOL."

Sure, maybe they were wrong. But just dismissing it with the juvenile "LOL" isn't showing it.

Poor Oswald. He just decided to leave his money to Marina that day, he just decided to leave his wedding ring, he just decided to bring curtain rods to work, he just decided to leave the building shortly after the assassination, he just decided to go see a move and not watch the TV, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided.....

Lots of people "just decide" to do things like that and Oswald was just like lots of other people. Except Oswald was not like lots of people (he defected to the USSR for example) and he did all of those things not some of them.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Steve M. Galbraith on August 14, 2021, 06:37:48 PM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 14, 2021, 11:27:59 AM

'with hundreds of people watching'

The Truman Oswald Show
Except that Oswald was a bad actor and Jim Carrey won an Oscar

I once had an "exchange" (using that word loosely) with a couple of conspiracy believers who said just that, it was a "Truman show." The reason "they" killed JFK this way - in broad daylight, with hundreds watching - was deliberate. It was a "show" to tell the public that they better watch it, that if they support someone like JFK who was going to challenge our overlords that really run the country that this is going to happen. A public execution so to speak.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 14, 2021, 07:01:04 PM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 14, 2021, 06:34:45 PM

Oswald just happened to have a Carcano rifle and it just happened to have a couple of notches that sorta' resembled the ones on the rifle recovered from the sniper's nest. But, no, they were different. "It doesn't look the same". The experts were wrong. Because "LOL."

Sure, maybe they were wrong. But just dismissing it with the juvenile "LOL" isn't showing it.

Poor Oswald. He just decided to leave his money to Marina that day, he just decided to leave his wedding ring, he just decided to bring curtain rods to work, he just decided to leave the building shortly after the assassination, he just decided to go see a move and not watch the TV, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided.....

Lots of people "just decide" to do things like that and Oswald was just like lots of other people. Except Oswald was not like lots of people (he defected to the USSR for example) and he did all of those things not some of them.

"Poor Oswald. He just decided to leave his money to Marina that day, he just decided to leave his wedding ring, he just decided to bring curtain rods to work, he just decided to leave the building shortly after the assassination, he just decided to go see a move and not watch the TV, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided....."

Does any of this provide proof that Lee shot JFK?   

I believe Lee thought he was playing a role in a HOAX .....That involved evidence being planted that would make it appear as if he had fired a shot (or shots)at JFK and then fled to Cuba.  ( The same basic hoax he had played at Walker's in April. )

I believe that he realized that he may not see Marina or the girls again if he succeeded in his scheme to infiltrate Cuba as he had infiltrated the USSR in 1959.... Thus al of the items you mentioned could have applied to the hoax attempt .....

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 14, 2021, 07:22:12 PM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 14, 2021, 06:37:48 PM

I once had an "exchange" (using that word loosely) with a couple of conspiracy believers who said just that, it was a "Truman show." The reason "they" killed JFK this way - in broad daylight, with hundreds watching - was deliberate. It was a "show" to tell the public that they better watch it, that if they support someone like JFK who was going to challenge our overlords that really run the country that this is going to happen. A public execution so to speak.

While that's feasible.....I doubt that the murder was executed as a warning to the American people....   The person(S) that shot JFK truly hated him.....   Mr Big who was backing those shooters who despised JFK used that hatred to his advantage.....

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Christer Jacobsson on August 15, 2021, 08:37:25 PM

Again..

Irrefutable evidence which shows Oswald's innocence:

http://krusch.com/jfkshell/story_html5.html (http://krusch.com/jfkshell/story_html5.html)   Thumb1:

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Mytton on August 16, 2021, 12:14:45 AM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 14, 2021, 06:34:45 PM

Oswald just happened to have a Carcano rifle and it just happened to have a couple of notches that sorta' resembled the ones on the rifle recovered from the sniper's nest. But, no, they were different. "It doesn't look the same". The experts were wrong. Because "LOL."

Sure, maybe they were wrong. But just dismissing it with the juvenile "LOL" isn't showing it.

Poor Oswald. He just decided to leave his money to Marina that day, he just decided to leave his wedding ring, he just decided to bring curtain rods to work, he just decided to leave the building shortly after the assassination, he just decided to go see a move and not watch the TV, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided.....

Lots of people "just decide" to do things like that and Oswald was just like lots of other people. Except Oswald was not like lots of people (he defected to the USSR for example) and he did all of those things not some of them.

Quote

Oswald just happened to have a Carcano rifle and it just happened to have a couple of notches that sorta' resembled the ones on the rifle recovered from the sniper's nest. But, no, they were different. "It doesn't look the same". The experts were wrong. Because "LOL."

Sure, maybe they were wrong. But just dismissing it with the juvenile "LOL" isn't showing it.

Yeah, the overuse of "LOL" when something isn't even remotely funny has greatly diminished the impact that the acronym originally had and now being used as a cheap gag when they have no other answer is simply a product of a juvenile mind that's run out of ideas.

Quote

Poor Oswald. He just decided to leave his money to Marina that day, he just decided to leave his wedding ring, he just decided to bring curtain rods to work, he just decided to leave the building shortly after the assassination, he just decided to go see a move and not watch the TV, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided.....

CT's have dug deep into Oswald's life and keep implying that Oswald had no motive and isn't on record as hating JFK therefore he must be innocent but will still dismiss the very basics that you have just outlined, they will isolate each example and for instance say "Left his wedding ring LOL" but when examined as a collective he symbolically left his wedding ring in Marina's family tea cup, spendthrift Oswald left almost all his money with Marina, he takes a long package to work and claims to a work mate that they are curtain rods, Oswald's rifle LOL was found on the 6th floor with still no alternate explanation on how it got there?
And why the heck would Oswald who needed his job and didn't have permission to leave the building, leave within the time it took to reach the front door?, of course the CT will say that others left too but they weren't inside at the time and some like Givens couldn't get back in, and the workers who were finally dismissed only left after some time had passed but none of them owned the rifle that killed the President and none of them were positively identified as killing Tippit and none of them were hiding in the darkened Texas Theatre miles away.
The fact that Oswald didn't seem to be curious in any way about what was happening directly outside his workplace and only wanted to get as far away as possible as soon as he could is a classic example of flight from the scene of a crime, yet CT's for some reason don't want to acknowledge the bleeding obvious.

JohnM

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 16, 2021, 02:54:43 AM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 14, 2021, 07:01:04 PM

"Poor Oswald. He just decided to leave his money to Marina that day, he just decided to leave his wedding ring, he just decided to bring curtain rods to work, he just decided to leave the building shortly after the assassination, he just decided to go see a move and not watch the TV, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided....."

Does any of this provide proof that Lee shot JFK?   

I believe Lee thought he was playing a role in a HOAX .....That involved evidence being planted that would make it appear as if he had fired a shot (or shots)at JFK and then fled to Cuba.  ( The same basic hoax he had played at Walker's in April. )

I believe that he realized that he may not see Marina or the girls again if he succeeded in his scheme to infiltrate Cuba as he had infiltrated the USSR in 1959.... Thus al of the items you mentioned could have applied to the hoax attempt .....

'HOAX'

Harvey Oswald Arse X-ers
Pucker up, boys

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Richard Smith on August 16, 2021, 04:26:37 PM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 14, 2021, 07:01:04 PM

"Poor Oswald. He just decided to leave his money to Marina that day, he just decided to leave his wedding ring, he just decided to bring curtain rods to work, he just decided to leave the building shortly after the assassination, he just decided to go see a move and not watch the TV, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided....."

Does any of this provide proof that Lee shot JFK?   

I believe Lee thought he was playing a role in a HOAX .....That involved evidence being planted that would make it appear as if he had fired a shot (or shots)at JFK and then fled to Cuba.  ( The same basic hoax he had played at Walker's in April. )

I believe that he realized that he may not see Marina or the girls again if he succeeded in his scheme to infiltrate Cuba as he had infiltrated the USSR in 1959.... Thus al of the items you mentioned could have applied to the hoax attempt .....

Do you need to attempt to assassinate the president to go to Cuba?  Oswald didn't shoot anyone to go to the USSR.  He just made a nuisance of himself.  And you believe that Oswald thought he had a reasonable chance to reach Cuba after this "hoax" that links him to the attempted assassination of the president?  That's pretty far fetched.  Oswald was not a dumb guy.  He would have realized his chances of escape were about zero.  Even hijacking a plane was a much more feasible way to reach Cuba in those days than what you are suggesting here. 

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 16, 2021, 04:44:41 PM

Quote from: Richard Smith on August 16, 2021, 04:26:37 PM

Do you need to attempt to assassinate the president to go to Cuba?  Oswald didn't shoot anyone to go to the USSR.  He just made a nuisance of himself.  And you believe that Oswald thought he had a reasonable chance to reach Cuba after this "hoax" that links him to the attempted assassination of the president?  That's pretty far fetched.  Oswald was not a dumb guy.  He would have realized his chances of escape were about zero.  Even hijacking a plane was a much more feasible way to reach Cuba in those days than what you are suggesting here.

Do you need to attempt to assassinate the president to go to Cuba?

This question comes from a shallow thinker, or someone who is desperate to defuse a plausible alternative to the official government approved lie as proffered by LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon Committee" .       

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Richard Smith on August 16, 2021, 05:28:08 PM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 16, 2021, 04:44:41 PM

Do you need to attempt to assassinate the president to go to Cuba?

This question comes from a shallow thinker, or someone who is desperate to defuse a plausible alternative to the official government approved lie as proffered by LBJ's "Special Select Blue Ribbon Committee" .       

Then it should be easy to answer.  Why was it necessary to be implicated in a plot to assassinate the president to reach Cuba?  Many people have traveled there without murdering a president.  I await the insights of a "deep" thinker such as yourself.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 16, 2021, 06:13:29 PM

Quote from: Richard Smith on August 16, 2021, 05:28:08 PM

Then it should be easy to answer.  Why was it necessary to be implicated in a plot to assassinate the president to reach Cuba?  Many people have traveled there without murdering a president.  I await the insights of a "deep" thinker such as yourself.

Dear Mr Simpleto. I'm not going to waste my time while attempting to coax an idiot to open his eyes.....

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 17, 2021, 01:25:31 AM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 16, 2021, 06:13:29 PM

Dear Mr Simpleto. I'm not going to waste my time while attempting to coax an idiot to open his eyes.....

Mr Simpleto

LOL

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 17, 2021, 02:59:27 AM

Quote from: Bill Chapman on August 17, 2021, 01:25:31 AM

Mr Simpleto

LOL

Please sign your name.....unless you want me to assume your initials stand for Laughing old Lunatic...

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 17, 2021, 03:14:22 AM

Quote from: Richard Smith on August 16, 2021, 04:26:37 PM

Do you need to attempt to assassinate the president to go to Cuba?  Oswald didn't shoot anyone to go to the USSR.  He just made a nuisance of himself.  And you believe that Oswald thought he had a reasonable chance to reach Cuba after this "hoax" that links him to the attempted assassination of the president?  That's pretty far fetched.  Oswald was not a dumb guy.  He would have realized his chances of escape were about zero.  Even hijacking a plane was a much more feasible way to reach Cuba in those days than what you are suggesting here.

Do you need to attempt to assassinate the president to go to Cuba?

Perhaps you.ve forgotten that Fidel Castro warned JFK that if the CIA attempted to assassinate him the JFK should watch his back....  Lee assumed that he could win acceptance into Cuba  if it appeared as though he had tried to carry out Castro's threat...

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Richard Smith on August 17, 2021, 04:53:29 PM

Quote from: Walt Cakebread on August 17, 2021, 03:14:22 AM

Do you need to attempt to assassinate the president to go to Cuba?

Perhaps you.ve forgotten that Fidel Castro warned JFK that if the CIA attempted to assassinate him the JFK should watch his back....  Lee assumed that he could win acceptance into Cuba  if it appeared as though he had tried to carry out Castro's threat...

Maybe, Oswald was a nut after all, but he was smart enough to know that his chances of reaching Cuba after attempting to assassinate JFK would effectively be zero.  He didn't even own a car.  Has limited funds.  It would be a very silly plan to get into Cuba via attempting to assassinate the President when that entailed almost certain arrest or death before he could get out the Dallas.  The only element that rings true here is that it does seem clear that in the months leading up to the assassination, Oswald's main objective was to create a resume for himself that might impress the Cubans into allowing him to gain entry to Cuba.  Thus, the Fair Play for Cuba and arrest etc.  It wouldn't surprise me if he made reference, even in a nonspecific way, to his attempt to kill Walker when he went to the Cuban embassy to impress upon them his commitment to the cause.  But he was using the "normal" channels to reach Cuba.  Maybe he was so nutty that he did envision himself perhaps somehow reaching Cuba after assassinating JFK and being given asylum as a type of revolutionary hero but he did seem to realize that the chances of getting away were extremely slim as demonstrated by his leaving his wedding ring and money with Marina.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 19, 2021, 10:14:18 PM

re the OP:

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2021, 09:52:20 PM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 14, 2021, 12:28:44 AM

Btw putting an "LOL" after any fact that you object to is extremely juvenile and proves absolutely nothing but it does reinforce your lack of knowledge and/or expertise, so keep it up Johnny boy!

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.  They don't become "facts" just because you call them that.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2021, 09:58:46 PM

Quote from: Steve M. Galbraith on August 14, 2021, 06:34:45 PM

Oswald just happened to have a Carcano rifle

Says who?

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and it just happened to have a couple of notches that sorta' resembled the ones on the rifle recovered from the sniper's nest.

"Couple of"?

Quote

But, no, they were different. "It doesn't look the same". The experts were wrong. Because "LOL."

What the "expert" actually said was "tilt the scales in the direction".  Because moon craters.

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Sure, maybe they were wrong. But just dismissing it with the juvenile "LOL" isn't showing it.

The burden is on the claimant to prove his case.

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Poor Oswald. He just decided to leave his money to Marina that day, he just decided to leave his wedding ring, he just decided to bring curtain rods to work, he just decided to leave the building shortly after the assassination, he just decided to go see a move and not watch the TV, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided, he just decided.....

If that's not evidence of murder then I don't know what is!   :D

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2021, 10:02:25 PM

Quote from: John Mytton on August 16, 2021, 12:14:45 AM

Yeah, the overuse of "LOL" when something isn't even remotely funny has greatly diminished the impact that the acronym originally had and now being used as a cheap gag when they have no other answer is simply a product of a juvenile mind that's run out of ideas.

What's cheap and juvenile is the overuse of terms like "Oswald's rifle" as if it were a fact.

also thinking that asking a bunch of "why did Oswald do X?" questions as if that constitutes evidence of anything.

"hiding in the darkened Texas Theatre".  LOL.

Title: Re: The Carcano: What Oswald Apologists don't want to hear
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 21, 2021, 12:51:11 AM

Quote from: John Iacoletti on August 20, 2021, 10:02:25 PM

What's cheap and juvenile is the overuse of terms like "Oswald's rifle" as if it were a fact.

also thinking that asking a bunch of "why did Oswald do X?" questions as if that constitutes evidence of anything.

"hiding in the darkened Texas Theatre".  LOL.

asking a bunch of "why did Oswald do X?" questions as if that constitutes evidence of anything.

Often the,... Why did Oswald do X ?...isn't even something he actually did.   Example....Why did Lee Oswald disassemble the carcano and conceal it in a paper bag?   

There is no evidence that Lee disassembled the carcano.....  If he had done that ...His finger prints would have been all over the parts and pieces of the rifle when the FBI examined the rifle.  They found No prints that could be identified with anybody on the rifle.

The evidence indicates that Lee could not have carried a disassembled carcano in the paper sack that Buell Frazier said he saw on the seat of his 1953 Chevy.