JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Gerry Down on November 11, 2020, 03:54:09 AM
-
Has anyone ever read all the library books Oswald ever took out in his life? In order to help get inside Oswalds mind?
Here is a list of the books Oswald took out in New Orleans in the summer of 1963:
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2650.pdf
Does anyone have a list of the books he took out in 1962 and 1963 in Dallas?
-
Has anyone ever read all the library books Oswald ever took out in his life? In order to help get inside Oswalds mind?
Here is a list of the books Oswald took out in New Orleans in the summer of 1963:
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2650.pdf
Does anyone have a list of the books he took out in 1962 and 1963 in Dallas?
I would imagine getting inside Oswald's mind akin to traversing a minefield but to answer your question; No, I don't believe such a list exists.
If you want to "get inside Oswald's mind" you may be better off reading some of what he wrote and actually said. Here are some speech notes written by Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/speechnotes1.htm Also a summary of a speech by LHO: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/parnell/ce2649.htm. Oswald's radio interviews can be found here: https://ponderwall.com/index.php/2019/06/07/oswald-radio-interview-august-1963/ And finally, Oswald's diary here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm
Hope you find the above of some value. Good luck.
-
Has anyone ever read all the library books Oswald ever took out in his life? In order to help get inside Oswalds mind?
Here is a list of the books Oswald took out in New Orleans in the summer of 1963:
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2650.pdf
Does anyone have a list of the books he took out in 1962 and 1963 in Dallas?
If I remember correctly, LHO checked out a book in Dallas that some believe was the last one. And there are some questions about who returned it. The book is: “The Shark and the Sardines” by Juan Jose Arevalo. It was a difficult one for me to read because of a lot of redundancy. Basically it describes the author’s view of how the United States supposedly took advantage of the Latin American countries. In my opinion, it would have added fuel to the “Fair Play for Cuba” fire burning in LHO. And provided additional motivation to take drastic action. I found the Kindle version of the book for just a few bucks.
-
If I remember correctly, LHO checked out a book in Dallas that some believe was the last one. And there are some questions about who returned it. The book is: “The Shark and the Sardines” by Juan Jose Arevalo.
I wasn't sure if he took this book out in Dallas before he went to New Orleans or if he took it out in Dallas before the JFK assassination. Couldn't find the timeline on it.
-
I wasn't sure if he took this book out in Dallas before he went to New Orleans or if he took it out in Dallas before the JFK assassination. Couldn't find the timeline on it.
I believe it was in Dallas just before the assassination. I believe that the controversy about the return was because LHO was already murdered when it was returned. I don’t have time to research it right now. But that is the way I remember it.
-
I believe it was in Dallas just before the assassination. I believe that the controversy about the return was because LHO was already murdered when it was returned. I don’t have time to research it right now. But that is the way I remember it.
Epstein says in his book "Legend" that it was in Dallas before the Walker shooting. See pages 202 and 317 of "Legend" book (hardback).
But Epstein could simply be wrong. He gets other things wrong in his book.
-
Epstein says in his book "Legend" that it was in Dallas before the Walker shooting. See pages 202 and 317 of "Legend" book (hardback).
But Epstein could simply be wrong. He gets other things wrong in his book.
According to Bugliosi, (page 777 - Reclaiming History) LHO checked it out of the Oak Cliff branch library on 11/6/63. It was due back on November 13. But three months after the assassination it had not been returned. (CE 2642, 25 H 901-902).
-
According to Bugliosi, (page 777 - Reclaiming History) LHO checked it out of the Oak Cliff branch library on 11/6/63. It was due back on November 13. But three months after the assassination it had not been returned. (CE 2642, 25 H 901-902).
That settles that. That FBI report also seems to imply that the Dallas library has no record of the books Oswald read either before or after his summer 1963 stay in New Orleans.
By the way, what do these numbers mean:
(CE 2642, 25 H 901-902)
I know the "CE 2642" refers to "Commission Exhibit 2642", but what do the other numbers and letter mean?
-
Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, Volume 25, pages 901-902
-
Warren Commission Hearings and Exhibits, Volume 25, pages 901-902
So the "25 H 901-902" is basically saying where CE2642 can be found in the 26 volumes that come with the Warren Report.
Is there some computer mechanism on, for example the Mary Ferrell website, where if I have an eyewitness account, say Abraham Zapruders WC testimony that i can type in "Zapruder" and it will give me a code like the above. In other words it will tell me in what page of what volume Abraham Zapruders testimony appears? I don't know how to generate these codes if i have a testimony i'd like to reference.
I'd like to be able to use the official reference code like this in future when directing someone to an exhibit or testimony.
-
So the "25 H 901-902" is basically saying where CE2642 can be found in the 26 volumes that come with the Warren Report.
Is there some computer mechanism on, for example the Mary Ferrell website, where if I have an eyewitness account, say Abraham Zapruders WC testimony that i can type in "Zapruder" and it will give me a code like the above. In other words it will tell me in what page of what volume Abraham Zapruders testimony appears? I don't know how to generate these codes if i have a testimony i'd like to reference.
I'd like to be able to use the official reference code like this in future when directing someone to an exhibit or testimony.
I sometimes find this useful:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm)
-
I sometimes find this useful:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm)
Me too, but the McAdams website does not give you the codes.
-
You can do a search on history-matters:
https://www.history-matters.com/search/search.htm (https://www.history-matters.com/search/search.htm)
-
We're talking his "mind" here. So don't forget, too, that he had his USMC ring on the day he was arrested.
His mind, as in: "I'm going to have my wife take photos of me holding up incriminating evidence such as a rifle and a Communist leaning newspaper. But 7 months later, because I hate all things 'Merica, I'm going to blow the president's head off...but I'll just wear my USMC ring on when I do so."
Sure, sure.
-
You can do a search on history-matters:
https://www.history-matters.com/search/search.htm (https://www.history-matters.com/search/search.htm)
Thanks. A search for "Abraham Zapruder" got me to this url:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/pdf/WH7_Zapruder.pdf
I'm guessing the "wh7" in the url means it is volume 7. What do the letters "wh" stand for? Is that definately referring to the volume?
So the way you would reference Zapruders WC testimony would be as follows:
(7 H 569-578)
That correct?
-
Yes, exactly!
"WH"....I dunno. "Warren Hearings"?
-
Does anyone know what the letters CD mean on some Warren Commission documents? For example at this link:
https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/
if you go to Wilma Bond, an FBI report for her is labelled "CD735".
What do the letters CD stand for?
-
Oswald's reading list seems fairly consistent with his historical persona. An interest in politics, history, and spy fantasies. Standing alone it doesn't mean much as to his guilt but it does reflect the interests of a commie nut job with a not too firm grasp on reality. He viewed himself as some type of revolutionary counter hero.
-
Does anyone know what the letters CD mean on some Warren Commission documents? For example at this link:
https://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/
if you go to Wilma Bond, an FBI report for her is labelled "CD735".
What do the letters CD stand for?
CD means "Commission Document". CE means "Commission Exhibit".
The "History Matters" site has a section called "Warren Commission Documents" ( Link (https://www.maryferrell.org/php/showlist.php?docset=1008) )
CD 735 is called "Commission Document 735 - FBI Gemberling Report of 10 Mar 1964 re: Oswald-Russia/Cuba". It contains 538 pages, with the Wilma Bond affidavit on "Document Page" 7.
-
Has anyone ever read all the library books Oswald ever took out in his life? In order to help get inside Oswalds mind?
Here is a list of the books Oswald took out in New Orleans in the summer of 1963:
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2650.pdf
Does anyone have a list of the books he took out in 1962 and 1963 in Dallas?
In any attempt to try to understand what might have been going through LHO’s mind, one should not ignore his childhood. His mother put him through a plethora of things that were detrimental to him. None of her three offspring wanted her at their mutual Thanksgiving get together about one year before the assassination. So she wasn’t invited. That alone says a lot about her.
-
In any attempt to try to understand what might have been going through LHO’s mind, one should not ignore his childhood. His mother put him through a plethora of things that were detrimental to him. None of her three offspring wanted her at their mutual Thanksgiving get together about one year before the assassination. So she wasn’t invited. That alone says a lot about her.
Agreed. That kind of stuff requires the expertise of a psychologist or psychiatrist though. Beyond the scope of most people.
-
Interesting that both LHO and JFK were readers of Ian Fleming. Entertaining books, for sure, but also fantasies. JFK might have imagined himself as Bond and maybe LHO dreamed he could be. Maybe LHO thought he had a 'license to kill'.
-
Interesting that both LHO and JFK were readers of Ian Fleming. Entertaining books, for sure, but also fantasies. JFK might have imagined himself as Bond and maybe LHO dreamed he could be. Maybe LHO thought he had a 'license to kill'.
Even though it was a new show in it’s first season, “The Fugitive” was reportedly a show that LHO watched and liked. And I find it intriguing that LHO wore a jacket similar to the one that the fugitive wore often on the show. The fugitive also packed a revolver if I remember correctly. I believe that LHO’s grasp on reality was fleeting at times.
-
Here is a list of the books Oswald took out in New Orleans in the summer of 1963:
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2650.pdf
Has anyone ever thought, as I do, that Oswald was just skimming through these books and not really reading them at all?
I don't see how he could have read all of them.
-
Here is a list of the books Oswald took out in New Orleans in the summer of 1963:
https://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2650.pdf
Has anyone ever thought, as I do, that Oswald was just skimming through these books and not really reading them at all?
I don't see how he could have read all of them.
Entertainment options would have been limited at that time for someone of Oswald's limited means. He had a lot of spare time. I recall he didn't even own a TV at times. So my guess is that he was an avid reader. Oswald's fanaticism would have fed into his interest in reading political and historical books and newspapers.
-
Maybe LHO was fascinated by Richard Kimble's ability to evade arrest.
-
Maybe LHO was fascinated by Richard Kimble's ability to evade arrest.
The best I remember, Kimble was typically walking and getting rides from various good samaritans, hopping on buses and trains, etc.. LHO could relate to that stuff. Plus he was likely entertained by Kimble’s outsmarting the cops. Yes, I agree with your thoughts.
-
Well, it aired Tuesday nights. The Fugitive, that is.
So, from Sep 17, 1963, to Nov 19, 1963, where was Oswald on Tuesdays, TV tuned in and ready to go?
Judges: let's check the Timeline!
I'll start, and then whoever brought up this whole Fugitive fan , uh, " theory" - a well grounded in fact theory, I am sure - can finish its " proof".
September 17 to October 1: New Orleans, no tv ownership mentioned???
On buses to and from Mexico city, and in Mexico city. TV viewing: unlikely.
3 episodes. Likely number viewed: 0 Fight me! :)
Moving on, I'll just mention:
Oct 8 to Nov 19 ( that's only 7 possible episodes to be a fan, or follower of whatever)
So Dallas. Where does he watch?
At Paine's? Not often on a Tuesday, yes? Usually on weekends.
YMCA? TVs in the rooms? Wheres the witnesses?
Rooming house #1? Other tenants. Many TVs? Really, at $8 a week? Or month
Rooming house #2? See above
Please. Prove wrong my rejection of the famous Fugitive fan theory. Thx.
-
Well, it aired Tuesday nights. The Fugitive, that is.
So, from Sep 17, 1963, to Nov 19, 1963, where was Oswald on Tuesdays, TV tuned in and ready to go?
Judges: let's check the Timeline!
I'll start, and then whoever brought up this whole Fugitive fan , uh, " theory" - a well grounded in fact theory, I am sure - can finish its " proof".
September 17 to October 1: New Orleans, no tv ownership mentioned???
On buses to and from Mexico city, and in Mexico city. TV viewing: unlikely.
3 episodes. Likely number viewed: 0 Fight me! :)
Moving on, I'll just mention:
Oct 8 to Nov 19 ( that's only 7 possible episodes to be a fan, or follower of whatever)
So Dallas. Where does he watch?
At Paine's? Not often on a Tuesday, yes? Usually on weekends.
YMCA? TVs in the rooms? Wheres the witnesses?
Rooming house #1? Other tenants. Many TVs? Really, at $8 a week? Or month
Rooming house #2? See above
Please. Prove wrong my rejection of the famous Fugitive fan theory. Thx.
It was a very popular show. And a type of show that LHO would most likely have enjoyed.
In Gus Russo's 1998 book "Live By The Sword", Russo quotes Lee's brother, Robert Oswald, as having said the following:
"As an adult, his [LHO's] favorite show became 'The Fugitive,' a television series about a man always on the run because he was wrongly accused of murdering his wife."
Oswald's landlady, Gladys Johnson, said ---
"He [Oswald] would come in and watch television maybe 30, 40 minutes at a time and never speak to a man."
JOE BALL -- "He would watch television sometimes?"
Mrs. JOHNSON -- "Yes, sir; watch television, with the other men renters."
-
It was a very popular show. And a type of show that LHO would most likely have enjoyed.
In Gus Russo's 1998 book "Live By The Sword", Russo quotes Lee's brother, Robert Oswald, as having said the following:
"As an adult, his [LHO's] favorite show became 'The Fugitive,' a television series about a man always on the run because he was wrongly accused of murdering his wife."
Oswald's landlady, Gladys Johnson, said ---
"He [Oswald] would come in and watch television maybe 30, 40 minutes at a time and never speak to a man."
JOE BALL -- "He would watch television sometimes?"
Mrs. JOHNSON -- "Yes, sir; watch television, with the other men renters."
"30 , 40 minutes at a time."
Like many fine Quinn Martin productions, "The Fugitive" was a.. one hour show.
So good, it only required partial viewing?
Only 30 to 40 minutes of a one hour episode?
At most, 7 episodes viewed?
Ok. I'm convinced.
Another well researched conclusion.
-
"30 , 40 minutes at a time."
Like many fine Quinn Martin productions, "The Fugitive" was a.. one hour show.
So good, it only required partial viewing?
Only 30 to 40 minutes of a one hour episode?
At most, 7 episodes viewed?
Ok. I'm convinced.
Another well researched conclusion.
Maybe we need to get her stopwatch checked for accuracy. But somehow I am convinced that nothing whatsoever will ever convince you of anything at all....
-
Maybe we need to get her stopwatch checked for accuracy. But somehow I am convinced that nothing whatsoever will ever convince you of anything at all....
I am convinced that the Earth revolves around the Sun.
So there's one thing, i.e. , anything.
He was a fan of " The Fugitive ".
Which premiered on..Sept 17th, 1963.
When did Lee Oswald speak to his brother about this "fandom"?
Is there any record of the brothers even speaking between Septb17th and Nov 21st? Please provide a link. Citations. Thx.
Otherwise, this is just Robert Oswald being a fabulist.
-
I am convinced that the Earth revolves around the Sun.
So there's one thing, i.e. , anything.
He was a fan of " The Fugitive ".
Which premiered on..Sept 17th, 1963.
When did Lee Oswald speak to his brother about this "fandom"?
Is there any record of the brothers even speaking between Septb17th and Nov 21st? Please provide a link. Citations. Thx.
Otherwise, this is just Robert Oswald being a fabulist.
Why do you think that it is necessary for LHO to speak of this directly to his brother? The most probable likelihood is that Marina told Robert. LHO did watch TV with Marina at Ruth Paine’s house on the weekends. And it would be likely that they spoke with each other about one of the most popular shows that came on during the week (The Fugitive). LHO would have liked telling Marina that Kimble was accused of murdering his wife. If only to make her wonder if LHO was capable of murdering her. He reportedly beat her and threatened to send her back to Russia. I can see him grinning devilishly as he tells her about Kimble’s alledged crime.
-
Why do you think that it is necessary for LHO to speak of this directly to his brother? The most probable likelihood is that Marina told Robert. LHO did watch TV with Marina at Ruth Paine’s house on the weekends. And it would be likely that they spoke with each other about one of the most popular shows that came on during the week (The Fugitive). LHO would have liked telling Marina that Kimble was accused of murdering his wife. If only to make her wonder if LHO was capable of murdering her. He reportedly beat her and threatened to send her back to Russia. I can see him grinning devilishly as he tells her about Kimble’s alledged crime.
What color is the sky in your world of speculation?
What of the above can you actually prove?
-
What color is the sky in your world of speculation?
What of the above can you actually prove?
This thread is supposed to be about getting inside the head of LHO. Any such endeavor is going to be full of speculation. I demonstrating that your apparent logic (that LHO directly telling his brother that The Fugitive was one of his favorite shows was necessary) is false. And that there are other ways that Robert could have learned this.
Demanding proof of everything that you don’t agree with is simply not applicable to this thread. If you don’t want to entertain the notion that some speculation might be correct, then you might want to disregard this thread.
-
Oswald had no library books at either of his residences (North Beckley or Irving) when he is alleged to have assassinated JFK. Considering he was such an avid reader, isn't this unusual and evidence he was perhaps planning something and so he knew he would not be able to return those books?
The only outstanding book he had was a book (The Shark And The Sardines) which he was supposed to have returned by Nov 13th but never did. Crucially, he had no book due on say Nov 23rd, Nov 24th, Nov 25th, Nov 26, Nov 27th etc.
Is this circumstantial evidence that Oswald perhaps afterall was up to something in mid to late November whereby he knew he would not be able to return any books should he take them out. Perhaps even planning to assassinate JFK?
-
This thread is supposed to be about getting inside the head of LHO. Any such endeavor is going to be full of speculation. I demonstrating that your apparent logic (that LHO directly telling his brother that The Fugitive was one of his favorite shows was necessary) is false. And that there are other ways that Robert could have learned this.
Demanding proof of everything that you don’t agree with is simply not applicable to this thread. If you don’t want to entertain the notion that some speculation might be correct, then you might want to disregard this thread.
Are you familiar with "the shark sardine " book. If he read it, it would certainly influence Oswald.
-
Oswald had no library books at either of his residences (North Beckley or Irving) when he is alleged to have assassinated JFK. Considering he was such an avid reader, isn't this unusual and evidence he was perhaps planning something and so he knew he would not be able to return those books?
The only outstanding book he had was a book (The Shark And The Sardines) which he was supposed to have returned by Nov 13th but never did. Crucially, he had no book due on say Nov 23rd, Nov 24th, Nov 25th, Nov 26, Nov 27th etc.
Is this circumstantial evidence that Oswald perhaps afterall was up to something in mid to late November whereby he knew he would not be able to return any books should he take them out. Perhaps even planning to assassinate JFK?
In my opinion, he intentionally used the book The Shark And The Sardines as a subliminal indication of (at least part of) his motive. It was the only book that we know of that he didn’t return. And it hits right at the heart of LHO’s belief that Cuba and his hero Castro were being treated unfairly by the United States. His infamous communist fist salute was another similar indication. He wasn’t ready to confess, at least until he acquired an attorney to represent him. His brother Robert believes that LHO would have confessed eventually. I tend to agree with Robert Oswald on that.
-
Are you familiar with "the shark sardine " book. If he read it, it would certainly influence Oswald.
LOL, we must have been typing our replies at the same time. Yes, I have read every word of that book. And I agree that it would have influenced LHO. See my above response also.
-
LOL, we must have been typing our replies at the same time. Yes, I have read every word of that book. And I agree that it would have influenced LHO. See my above response also.
Notice I said..if he read it.
Oswald's " leftism" always seems like poor playacting, with an irregular collection of props.
-
"30 , 40 minutes at a time."
Like many fine Quinn Martin productions, "The Fugitive" was a.. one hour show.
So good, it only required partial viewing?
Only 30 to 40 minutes of a one hour episode?
At most, 7 episodes viewed?
Ok. I'm convinced.
Another well researched conclusion.
Here is a quote from Hugh Aynesworth’s notes written in May of 1964. Photos of the actual typewritten pages with handwritten notations are published in the book “The Reporters’ Notes” by The Dallas Morning News.
“We talked with all those concerned and found that Oswald had moved in late one afternoon several weeks before, had been an irate TV-watcher (often argued with other roomers as to which channel to watch), had paid his $8 a week like clockwork and liked to make sandwiches in his small, cubicle-like room—plain but clean.”
-
Here is a quote from Hugh Aynesworth’s notes written in May of 1964. Photos of the actual typewritten pages with handwritten notations are published in the book “The Reporters’ Notes” by The Dallas Morning News.
“We talked with all those concerned and found that Oswald had moved in late one afternoon several weeks before, had been an irate TV-watcher (often argued with other roomers as to which channel to watch), had paid his $8 a week like clockwork and liked to make sandwiches in his small, cubicle-like room—plain but clean.”
And Aynesworth's notes mention Lee and Robert discussing "The Fugitive " tv show?
-
George DeMorenschildt’s book, “I am A Patsy” gives a detailed account of who LHO was as a person and his worldview...
-
In my opinion, he intentionally used the book The Shark And The Sardines as a subliminal indication of (at least part of) his motive. It was the only book that we know of that he didn’t return. And it hits right at the heart of LHO’s belief that Cuba and his hero Castro were being treated unfairly by the United States. His infamous communist fist salute was another similar indication. He wasn’t ready to confess, at least until he acquired an attorney to represent him. His brother Robert believes that LHO would have confessed eventually. I tend to agree with Robert Oswald on that.
In spite of the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis, LHO admired JFK by all indications and he understood that US policy towards Cuba wouldn’t change if LBJ replaced Kennedy...
-
In spite of the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis, LHO admired JFK by all indications and he understood that US policy towards Cuba wouldn’t change if LBJ replaced Kennedy...
LBJ believed that Castro was behind the assassination. He was afraid of Castro. He stopped the CIA attempts to assassinate Castro that the Kennedys were reportedly behind. LHO liked some of JFK’s actions on civil rights, etc. But it appears to me that LHO was squarely against JFK’s policies regarding the ongoing actions designed to destabilize the Castro regime.
-
LBJ believed that Castro was behind the assassination. He was afraid of Castro. He stopped the CIA attempts to assassinate Castro that the Kennedys were reportedly behind. LHO liked some of JFK’s actions on civil rights, etc. But it appears to me that LHO was squarely against JFK’s policies regarding the ongoing actions designed to destabilize the Castro regime.
The BOP and Cuban Missile crisis were a big deal. If Oswald didn't hate JFK after those well documented confrontations between the US and Cuba, what in 1963 could've changed his mind? And there's no evidence that his opinion of Kennedy changed.
LBJ was a bigger anti-Communist hawk than JFK. He also favored escalation in Vietnam while JFK resisted.
So with that in mind, I don't see how Oswald might've concluded that eliminating JFK would change US policy towards Cuba.
Per Det. Will Fritz, Oswald acknowledged during his interrogation that he didn't think LBJ's policies would be different from Kennedy's.
As you mentioned, Oswald was a strong supporter of the Civil Rights Movement. I think that, not Cuba, is what fueled Oswald's hatred of Gen. Edwin Walker who led violent demonstrations again Integration...
-
The BOP and Cuban Missile crisis were a big deal. If Oswald didn't hate JFK after those well documented confrontations between the US and Cuba, what in 1963 could've changed his mind? And there's no evidence that his opinion of Kennedy changed.
LBJ was a bigger anti-Communist hawk than JFK. He also favored escalation in Vietnam while JFK resisted.
So with that in mind, I don't see how Oswald might've concluded that eliminating JFK would change US policy towards Cuba.
Per Det. Will Fritz, Oswald acknowledged during his interrogation that he didn't think LBJ's policies would be different from Kennedy's.
As you mentioned, Oswald was a strong supporter of the Civil Rights Movement. I think that, not Cuba, is what fueled Oswald's hatred of Gen. Edwin Walker who led violent demonstrations again Integration...
The bay of pigs fiasco and the Cuban missile crisis both ended up with JFK resisting the U.S. military’s desires to attack Cuba. Nothing much for LHO to get terribly upset with JFK about in either instance. Some of us believe that the assassination of JFK is ample evidence that LHO’s opinion of JFK changed.
Vietnam was a separate conflict. Although Castro did try to support the communists there.
LHO had no way of knowing for sure what might happen between the United States and Cuba after the assassination. But I cannot imagine that he really thought that nothing would change. That is what he could be expected to say to the police however. After all they were charging him with the assassination. And he wasn’t going to say anything that might tend to incriminate himself. At least not until he had an attorney to represent him. However, the fact is that the U.S. did back off the effort to destabilize Cuba.
-
The bay of pigs fiasco and the Cuban missile crisis both ended up with JFK resisting the U.S. military’s desires to attack Cuba. Nothing much for LHO to get terribly upset with JFK about in either instance. Some of us believe that the assassination of JFK is ample evidence that LHO’s opinion of JFK changed.
You're using circular logic.
Even if we assume Oswald, alone or as part of a conspiracy, did it, we don't know what his motive might've been.
There's no evidence that he disliked Kennedy personally. If he did it, he had other motives.
Vietnam was a separate conflict. Although Castro did try to support the communists there.
I agree but I was noting that LBJ was more of a hawk on stopping Communism in Asia, than Kennedy. It's one of the reasons Eisenhower liked LBJ and disliked JFK.
https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/educational-resources/an-exceptional-alliance-johnson-eisenhower-and-the-vietnam-war
LHO had no way of knowing for sure what might happen between the United States and Cuba after the assassination. But I cannot imagine that he really thought that nothing would change. That is what he could be expected to say to the police however. After all they were charging him with the assassination. And he wasn’t going to say anything that might tend to incriminate himself. At least not until he had an attorney to represent him. However, the fact is that the U.S. did back off the effort to destabilize Cuba.
No one could've predicted that LBJ would decide not to retaliate against Cuba despite his suspicion that Oswald was part of a Communist conspiracy. Conventional wisdom is that a State actor involved in the murder of a US President would be treated a an act of war.
LBJ later admitted that he believed there was a conspiracy despite his endorsement of the Warren Report.
Oswald had an above average awareness of Foreign Policy. I doubt he figured that LBJ would be better on Cuba than Kennedy.
-
The BOP and Cuban Missile crisis were a big deal. If Oswald didn't hate JFK after those well documented confrontations between the US and Cuba, what in 1963 could've changed his mind? And there's no evidence that his opinion of Kennedy changed.
LBJ was a bigger anti-Communist hawk than JFK. He also favored escalation in Vietnam while JFK resisted.
So with that in mind, I don't see how Oswald might've concluded that eliminating JFK would change US policy towards Cuba.
Per Det. Will Fritz, Oswald acknowledged during his interrogation that he didn't think LBJ's policies would be different from Kennedy's.
As you mentioned, Oswald was a strong supporter of the Civil Rights Movement. I think that, not Cuba, is what fueled Oswald's hatred of Gen. Edwin Walker who led violent demonstrations again Integration...
Oswald was a malcontent with a screw loose. You can't find tidy motives for his actions. His lack of apparent animosity regarding JFK is not relevant. He didn't assassinate JFK. He assassinated the President of the United States. He did so primarily because the opportunity fell right into his lap. Unlike most assassins who have to venture out in search of their targets who they have to pick from anyone else in the world, JFK's motorcade came right past Oswald's place of work. His action was a giant middle finger to the American society that he detested. This was Oswald's way to be someone important. In his fantasy world, he was waking every one up with a revolutionary act. In reality, he was just an angry, pathetic guy. His actions have political elements but are mostly driven by subjective psychological factors of Oswald himself.
-
You're using circular logic.
Even if we assume Oswald, alone or as part of a conspiracy, did it, we don't know what his motive might've been.
There's no evidence that he disliked Kennedy personally. If he did it, he had other motives.
I agree but I was noting that LBJ was more of a hawk on stopping Communism in Asia, than Kennedy. It's one of the reasons Eisenhower liked LBJ and disliked JFK.
https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/educational-resources/an-exceptional-alliance-johnson-eisenhower-and-the-vietnam-war
No one could've predicted that LBJ would decide not to retaliate against Cuba despite his suspicion that Oswald was part of a Communist conspiracy. Conventional wisdom is that a State actor involved in the murder of a US President would be treated a an act of war.
LBJ later admitted that he believed there was a conspiracy despite his endorsement of the Warren Report.
Oswald had an above average awareness of Foreign Policy. I doubt he figured that LBJ would be better on Cuba than Kennedy.
It’s possible that LHO admired JFK for some of his qualities. But one also should consider that the extreme wealth of the Kennedy clan is something that LHO abhorred about the capitalist system. He felt that the wealthy took advantage of the not-so-wealthy to become even more wealthy. Plenty of those feelings still around these days.
We will never know for sure what he was thinking. At the very least it can be said that Castro was LHO’s hero. And that he wanted to help Castro’s cause. The publicity in the papers and other media surrounding the war of words between Castro and JFK would have inflamed LHO. As would the book The Shark and the Sardines. Whether or not that was enough to cause the assassination is a matter of opinion. The motorcade passing right by his workplace apparently just coincidentally was too tempting for him in that situation.
-
It’s possible that LHO admired JFK for some of his qualities. But one also should consider that the extreme wealth of the Kennedy clan is something that LHO abhorred about the capitalist system. He felt that the wealthy took advantage of the not-so-wealthy to become even more wealthy. Plenty of those feelings still around these days.
LHO wasn't shy about his political opinions and he made no secret of his hatred of Gen. Edwin Walker. He expressed it in his writing and to witnesses.
In contrast, there's no paper trail or witnesses supporting your assumptions about his personal dislike of JFK.
It's equally possible that he believed Kennedy would be better for Civil Rights and could bring peace between the US and USSR because of the things JFK said publicly in 1963 like his American University speech for example.
There were people like Allen Dulles for example, who did in fact dislike Kennedy due to the perception that he wasn't tough enough on Communism. Maybe LHO saw the same thing and that gave him a favorable opinion of JFK.
We will never know for sure what he was thinking. At the very least it can be said that Castro was LHO’s hero. And that he wanted to help Castro’s cause.
I'm not sure what LHO really thought of Castro. It's possible that he, like other Americans, initially romanticized the Cuban Revolution but the opinions of Americans, even on the Left, shifted as soon as Castro revealed himself to be an authoritarian.
I say that because we don't really know the complete story behind his fake "FPFCC" stuff and his association with anti-Castro reactionaries in New Orleans (and allegedly Dallas).
His brother Robert seemed to think Lee grew disillusioned with Soviet style communism and wasn't as much of an ideologue as some think he was.
The publicity in the papers and other media surrounding the war of words between Castro and JFK would have inflamed LHO. As would the book The Shark and the Sardines. Whether or not that was enough to cause the assassination is a matter of opinion. The motorcade passing right by his workplace apparently just coincidentally was too tempting for him in that situation.
Given the lack of a motive for shooting Kennedy, it maybe shouldn't be dismissed as a possibility that Governor Connally was the real target.
We at least know that Oswald held a grudge against the governor.
-
Has anyone perused the "Historic Diary"?
-
Has anyone perused the "Historic Diary"?
Yes John, you're right. No ones getting 'inside Oswald's mind' by viewing his books (I read books about serial killers, doesn't mean I am one) But as I said way back in post #2; If you want to "get inside Oswald's mind" you may be better off reading some of what he wrote and actually said. Here are some speech notes written by Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/speechnotes1.htm Also a summary of a speech by LHO: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/parnell/ce2649.htm. Oswald's radio interviews can be found here: https://ponderwall.com/index.php/2019/06/07/oswald-radio-interview-august-1963/ And finally, Oswald's diary here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm
-
Yes John, you're right. No ones getting 'inside Oswald's mind' by viewing his books (I read books about serial killers, doesn't mean I am one) But as I said way back in post #2; If you want to "get inside Oswald's mind" you may be better off reading some of what he wrote and actually said. Here are some speech notes written by Oswald: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/speechnotes1.htm Also a summary of a speech by LHO: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/parnell/ce2649.htm. Oswald's radio interviews can be found here: https://ponderwall.com/index.php/2019/06/07/oswald-radio-interview-august-1963/ And finally, Oswald's diary here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/historicdiary.htm
I'm familiar with most of those links.
What seems clear based on his own words is:
- after having lived in Russia he preferred the US over Russia
- he wasn't a communist
- he was very knowledgable about foreign policy and politics
-
I'm familiar with most of those links.
What seems clear based on his own words is:
- after having lived in Russia he preferred the US over Russia
- he wasn't a communist
- he was very knowledgable about foreign policy and politics
Yes Jon, but be careful, personally I wouldn't accept anything from Oswald at face value..always look/expect a possible lie.
-
Yes Jon, but be careful, personally I wouldn't accept anything from Oswald at face value..always look/expect a possible lie.
He was an enigma wrapped in an enigma. :)
-
He was an enigma wrapped in an enigma. :)
IMO, Oswald displayed enough psychopathic tendencies (we all have a few mild ones) to be a clinical psychopath. One of the psychopathic tendencies is the compulsion to lie and mislead for no real reason.
-
IMO, Oswald displayed enough psychopathic tendencies (we all have a few mild ones) to be a clinical psychopath. One of the psychopathic tendencies is the compulsion to lie and mislead for no real reason.
I'll grant you that he sometimes told lies and was very secretive. Not convinced he was a psychopath.
-
IMO, Oswald displayed enough psychopathic tendencies (we all have a few mild ones) to be a clinical psychopath. One of the psychopathic tendencies is the compulsion to lie and mislead for no real reason.
Oswald was most likely a sociopath
-
Oswald was most likely a sociopath
If that video is correct, many Politicians and National Security officials are psychopaths.
I've often called people in those professions "sociopaths" because of the ease in which they lie or the lack of empathy some politicians have but the way that video describes "psychopaths" is closer to what I have in mind for individuals who are obsessed with seeking power.
-
There is no requirement that Oswald hate JFK in order to be the assassin of the President of the United States. Deranged people do not have to operate according to logic and reason. The big difference between the JFK assassination and other types of assassinations is that in this case the target came to the assassin rather than the assassin having to seek out the target. In the latter case, the assassin has to pick someone from everyone else in the world to target. So they may have some real or imagined grievance against that individual. In this case, however, the presidential motorcade came, by chance, directly by Oswald's place of work. Oswald would have assassinated Nixon, LBJ or anyone else if they had been President at that moment. It was not specific to JFK. As a result, any apparent lack of animosity to JFK himself is not particularly relevant to the act.
-
There is no requirement that Oswald hate JFK in order to the be the assassin of the President of the United States. Deranged people do not have to operate according to logic and reason. The big difference between the JFK assassination and other types of assassinations is that in this case the target came to the assassin rather than the assassin having to seek out the target. In the latter case, the assassin has to pick someone from everyone else in the world to target. So they may have some real or imagined grievance against that individual. In this case, however, the presidential motorcade came, by chance, directly by Oswald's place of work. Oswald would have assassinated Nixon, LBJ or anyone else if they had been President at that moment. It was not specific to JFK. As a result, any apparent lack of animosity to JFK himself is not particularly relevant to the act.
Recall what Oswald once said (apparently on the ship he was on as he returned from the USSR)?
He said: "I wonder what would happen if someone would stand up and say he was utterly opposed not only to the governments, but to the people, to the entire land and complete foundation of his society."
Oswald rejected America when he defected (well before JFK was president). He told Thornley that he rejected it. He told everyone he talked to this. He said similar things when he was 16 and 17. Some young friends of his said Oswald shockingly told them that Eisenhower should be shot.
JFK likely personified what he disliked. Whether it was Eisenhower or JFK or LBJ or whomever; he was shooting at the system he hated as much as the man. But I don't think a person who revered Castro would also "like" JFK. Oswald may have liked JFK for his civil rights stance; but I don't think he liked JFK the anti-Castroite at all.
It is interesting that the Oswald defenders who say he was framed quote Marina and DeMohrenschildt and the Paines about him "liking" JFK. So Marina and DeMohrenschildt and the Paines framed Oswald - their statements were scripted to frame him - and yet they say he liked JFK? Why would they be "allowed" to say such things? It makes no sense except in this bizarre conspiracy world that these sad people live in.
-
If that video is correct, many Politicians and National Security officials are psychopaths.
I've often called people in those professions "sociopaths" because of the ease in which they lie or the lack of empathy some politicians have but the way that video describes "psychopaths" is closer to what I have in mind for individuals who are obsessed with seeking power.
I wouldn't take too much notice of Bill's 'cartoon' most psychiatrists use the terms sociopath and psychopath as interchangeable. Some claim small differences. I think, generally speaking, most laymen class a psychopath as potentially capable of murder whilst a sociopath isn't. But you're essentially correct, to become a successful CEO, a high ranking politician or a world leader requires a certain lack of compassion and conscience. Of course, not all are psychopaths. But those that are have the ability to destroy thousands of peoples lives at the stroke of a pen, to be responsible for the deaths of thousands of men, woman and children sometimes just purely for the benefit of their own political careers without any sense of remorse. Without the 'protection' of being a psychopath, most of these would end up in mental institutions or committing suicide due to the guilt. But of course, most psychopaths just have 'ordinary' jobs and seemingly ordinary lives and are not necessarily dangerous.
-
I wouldn't take too much notice of Bill's 'cartoon' most psychiatrists use the terms sociopath and psychopath as interchangeable. Some claim small differences. I think, generally speaking, most laymen class a psychopath as potentially capable of murder whilst a sociopath isn't. But you're essentially correct, to become a successful CEO, a high ranking politician or a world leader requires a certain lack of compassion and conscience. Of course, not all are psychopaths. But those that are have the ability to destroy thousands of peoples lives at the stroke of a pen, to be responsible for the deaths of thousands of men, woman and children sometimes just purely for the benefit of their own political careers without any sense of remorse. Without the 'protection' of being a psychopath, most of these would end up in mental institutions or committing suicide due to the guilt. But of course, most psychopaths just have 'ordinary' jobs and seemingly ordinary lives and are not necessarily dangerous.
I wouldn't take too much notice of Bill's 'cartoon
LOL. You then go on to essentially repeat what the video said.
WTF?
-
Recall what Oswald once said (apparently on the ship he was on as he returned from the USSR)?
He said: "I wonder what would happen if someone would stand up and say he was utterly opposed not only to the governments, but to the people, to the entire land and complete foundation of his society."
Oswald rejected America when he defected (well before JFK was president). He told Thornley that he rejected it. He told everyone he talked to this. He said similar things when he was 16 and 17. Some young friends of his said Oswald shockingly told them that Eisenhower should be shot.
JFK likely personified what he disliked. Whether it was Eisenhower or JFK or LBJ or whomever; he was shooting at the system he hated as much as the man. But I don't think a person who revered Castro would also "like" JFK. Oswald may have liked JFK for his civil rights stance; but I don't think he liked JFK the anti-Castroite at all.
Let's not ignore what his brother said about his political views
When Lee got back from Russia, the way he talked about the Russian system, he didn’t talk about it politically, in the sense that he was wrapped up in communism or Marxism. He was making fun of how inept they were, and he was making fun of them all the time. …
He wasn’t political. He really wasn’t. I say that in all honesty, because he tried to become what he needed to be to achieve his immediate objectives; i.e., he needed to be a Marxist and accept the Russians [to] get the experience in Russia. When he returned to the United States, he didn’t want to be a Russian. He wanted to be an American, to be accepted by the American society, and so wherever he was … he wanted to be accepted. He wasn’t political. He was what’s convenient to be...
I think it says that he is very pragmatic, and he’s going to go with the punches. He’s going to fit in to where he needs to fit in to accomplish what he needs to accomplish … what is very essential to get by with, to be somebody. That’s what it comes down to — he wanted to be unique, by whatever it took…
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/interview-robert-oswald/
There's plenty of evidence that Oswald disliked Gen. Edwin Walker.
In contrast, Investigators couldn't find any witnesses or documented evidence to support the assumption that he disliked JFK.
-
Let's not ignore what his brother said about his political views
When Lee got back from Russia, the way he talked about the Russian system, he didn’t talk about it politically, in the sense that he was wrapped up in communism or Marxism. He was making fun of how inept they were, and he was making fun of them all the time. …
He wasn’t political. He really wasn’t. I say that in all honesty, because he tried to become what he needed to be to achieve his immediate objectives; i.e., he needed to be a Marxist and accept the Russians [to] get the experience in Russia. When he returned to the United States, he didn’t want to be a Russian. He wanted to be an American, to be accepted by the American society, and so wherever he was … he wanted to be accepted. He wasn’t political. He was what’s convenient to be...
I think it says that he is very pragmatic, and he’s going to go with the punches. He’s going to fit in to where he needs to fit in to accomplish what he needs to accomplish … what is very essential to get by with, to be somebody. That’s what it comes down to — he wanted to be unique, by whatever it took…
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/interview-robert-oswald/
There's plenty of evidence that Oswald disliked Gen. Edwin Walker.
In contrast, Investigators couldn't find any witnesses or documented evidence to support the assumption that he disliked JFK.
Walker lived in Dallas. He was a right winger. A target of opportunity for Oswald. It's easy to understand how and why Oswald targeted Walker. JFK was a target of chance. His motorcade, by chance, passed Oswald's place of work which afforded Oswald an opportunity to assassinate him. As discussed above, the fact that Oswald had no apparent personal animosity to JFK does not create any doubt of his guilt. The direct and circumstantial evidence links Oswald to the crime beyond any doubt. While Oswald's subjective "motive" for committing the crime is obviously of historical interest, it is not necessary to demonstrate that he was the assassin. And there is a multitude of examples of Oswald's intense hatred of the American system of government. Of which JFK, as President of the United States, is both the literal and figurative head.
-
I wouldn't take too much notice of Bill's 'cartoon
LOL. You then go on to essentially repeat what the video said.
WTF?
Hi Bill, yeah, now I'm reading that back it sounds far harsher than I intended. Sorry about that.
-
Walker lived in Dallas. He was a right winger. A target of opportunity for Oswald. It's easy to understand how and why Oswald targeted Walker. JFK was a target of chance. His motorcade, by chance, passed Oswald's place of work which afforded Oswald an opportunity to assassinate him. As discussed above, the fact that Oswald had no apparent personal animosity to JFK does not create any doubt of his guilt. The direct and circumstantial evidence links Oswald to the crime beyond any doubt. While Oswald's subjective "motive" for committing the crime is obviously of historical interest, it is not necessary to demonstrate that he was the assassin. And there is a multitude of examples of Oswald's intense hatred of the American system of government. Of which JFK, as President of the United States, is both the literal and figurative head.
The topic of the thread is “Oswald’s mindset”, not whether we think he’s guilty or innocent.
I have said previously that the lack of an identifiable motive doesn’t exonerate Oswald in JFK’s murder.
Just noting that the patterns of the Walker incident and JFK incidents are totally different...
-
Let's not ignore what his brother said about his political views
When Lee got back from Russia, the way he talked about the Russian system, he didn’t talk about it politically, in the sense that he was wrapped up in communism or Marxism. He was making fun of how inept they were, and he was making fun of them all the time. …
He wasn’t political. He really wasn’t. I say that in all honesty, because he tried to become what he needed to be to achieve his immediate objectives; i.e., he needed to be a Marxist and accept the Russians [to] get the experience in Russia. When he returned to the United States, he didn’t want to be a Russian. He wanted to be an American, to be accepted by the American society, and so wherever he was … he wanted to be accepted. He wasn’t political. He was what’s convenient to be...
I think it says that he is very pragmatic, and he’s going to go with the punches. He’s going to fit in to where he needs to fit in to accomplish what he needs to accomplish … what is very essential to get by with, to be somebody. That’s what it comes down to — he wanted to be unique, by whatever it took…
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/interview-robert-oswald/
There's plenty of evidence that Oswald disliked Gen. Edwin Walker.
In contrast, Investigators couldn't find any witnesses or documented evidence to support the assumption that he disliked JFK.
Volkmar Schmidt said he talked with Oswald at a party they attended (February '63) and Oswald "seethed" with anger about JFK over the Bay of Pigs. The problem for Schimdt was that he was interviewed by the FBI shortly after the assassination and told them Oswald never mentioned JFK or that he was angry with him. So it's not a very believable story. But IF they did discuss politics - and the missile crisis had just taken place three months before - and Cuba was mentioned I don't see how Oswald would express a "liking" for JFK on the matter.
Castro reportedly said that Oswald threatened to kill JFK when he, Oswald, was denied a transit visa at the Cuban consulate. Castro later denied this and the Cuban employees at the consulate said they heard no such thing. I tend to doubt Oswald made the threat but I'm stumped as to why Castro would make the story up (he told Jack Childs, according to Childs, this in a private conversation)
Oswald regularly read publications - the Daily Worker and the Militant - that denounced JFK over his Cuban policies. In one of them that he subscribed to it included excerpts from a speech from Castro denouncing JFK as a gangster.
Oswald adored Castro. I don't think he would have liked JFK's anti-Castro's statements or policies. It makes no sense that he would.
Finally, if Oswald was framed then why didn't these powerful conspirators tell Marina or Ruth Paine or anyone to say he hated JFK? Or plant material indicating it? It makes no sense. It's impossible to prove that Oswald wasn't framed by elements of the government. But the fact that such things as showing he hated JFK really calls into questions why such conspirators wouldn't manufacture that.
-
The topic of the thread is “Oswald’s mindset”, not whether we think he’s guilty or innocent.
I have said previously that the lack of an identifiable motive doesn’t exonerate Oswald in JFK’s murder.
Just noting that the patterns of the Walker incident and JFK incidents are totally different...
There are obvious reasons for a Marxist-nut like Oswald to hate Walker as a right winger. There are less obvious signs of animosity toward JFK. So what? I'm not sure that I understand the point of noting that the "patterns" are totally different unless it is to imply doubt as to Oswald's involvement in the JFK assassination by contrasting those differences. And that is a false premise for the reasons noted.
-
Volkmar Schmidt said he talked with Oswald at a party they attended (February '63) and Oswald "seethed" with anger about JFK over the Bay of Pigs. The problem for Schimdt was that he was interviewed by the FBI shortly after the assassination and told them Oswald never mentioned JFK or that he was angry with him. So it's not a very believable story. But IF they did discuss politics - and the missile crisis had just taken place three months before - and Cuba was mentioned I don't see how Oswald would express a "liking" for JFK on the matter.
Castro reportedly said that Oswald threatened to kill JFK when he, Oswald, was denied a transit visa at the Cuban consulate. Castro later denied this and the Cuban employees at the consulate said they heard no such thing. I tend to doubt Oswald made the threat but I'm stumped as to why Castro would make the story up (he told Jack Childs, according to Childs, this in a private conversation)
Oswald regularly read publications - the Daily Worker and the Militant - that denounced JFK over his Cuban policies. In one of them that he subscribed to it included excerpts from a speech from Castro denouncing JFK as a gangster.
Oswald adored Castro. I don't think he would have liked JFK's anti-Castro's statements or policies. It makes no sense that he would.
Finally, if Oswald was framed then why didn't these powerful conspirators tell Marina or Ruth Paine or anyone to say he hated JFK? Or plant material indicating it? It makes no sense. It's impossible to prove that Oswald wasn't framed by elements of the government. But the fact that such things as showing he hated JFK really calls into questions why such conspirators wouldn't manufacture that.
Most of the examples of Oswald’s saying nice things about JFK occurred after the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missile Crisis. He didn’t mention anything negative about Kennedy in his writings between 62’ and 63’.
Marina mentioned that Lee told her positive things about Kennedy while they were in Russia.
The closest to a possible attempt to frame Oswald as “anti-Kennedy” is maybe the Sylvia Odio incident if we accept her story at face value...
-
IMO, Oswald displayed enough psychopathic tendencies (we all have a few mild ones) to be a clinical psychopath. One of the psychopathic tendencies is the compulsion to lie and mislead for no real reason.
A real retro-analyst there folks.
-
Here is an interesting quote of Michael Paine (who had some substantial discussions with LHO):
"In our arguments I told Lee that all the civilized values I hold dear are diminished
or lost by acts of violence. But he held such human values in contempt, the same
contempt in which he held most human beings."
I found this in CE 460 in case anyone is curious.
-
Here is an interesting quote of Michael Paine (who had some substantial discussions with LHO):
"In our arguments I told Lee that all the civilized values I hold dear are diminished
or lost by acts of violence. But he held such human values in contempt, the same
contempt in which he held most human beings."
I found this in CE 460 in case anyone is curious.
Oswald's exchanges with Michael Paine are interesting and the best late evidence (for what it's worth) about his (Oswald's) thinking. Paine said he took Oswald to an ACLU meeting where Oswald got up and talked about the danger from the Bircher radical right. But Oswald was not enamored with the ACLU; he didn't think it was political enough, that it was too passive in working within the US system to affect change. Paine said that one person at the meeting said some favorable things about Castro and Oswald concluded that that person must have been a communist and that he, Oswald, wanted to meet that person later. Paine said that was a silly way of viewing things.
He also said this about Oswald's critical views of America and how it needed to be changed:
Mr. LIEBELER - You had the feeling that whatever it [i.e., Oswald's views on what type of system we should have] was, if in fact he had a notion about it, would have required a drastic and sudden change?
Mr. PAINE - Well, I don't know about the suddeness but he assumed that the society was all tied together, the church and the power structure and our education was all the same vile system and therefore there would have to be an overthrow of the whole thing. Just how he was going to overthrow it or what he was going to overthrow toward--it was not clear to me, especially, because it was also apparent that he didn't particularly admire Russia, so I didn't--I never did get it clear in my mind what program he was going to inaugurate with his new world.
It seem absolutely clear to me in Oswald's comments and writings and behavior that he simply detested the US, the American political and economic systems. Whether he was a Marxist - however that is defined or however he understood it - or not is really secondary to the question of what his views were of his country.
I think all of these claims that his anti-US views were a "legend" or cover story, that he secretly was fighting for the US is just without any foundation. Look at his life; he had a terrible isolated childhood with no stability, he was raised at times in terrible conditions, he was a lost alienated man. There's nothing indicating in any of this a desire to defend a country that exposed him to that.
-
It seem absolutely clear to me in Oswald's comments and writings and behavior that he simply detested the US, the American political and economic systems. Whether he was a Marxist - however that is defined or however he understood it - or not is really secondary to the question of what his views were of his country.
Volunteering for military service is an odd choice for someone who supposedly hated America.
So many contradictions in his short life.
Also, your broad brush applies to almost anyone with Leftist views who criticizes America.
Most Leftists, while critical of American politics and culture, aren't extremists...
-
Oswald seemed to have above average intelligence and no vices (he didn't drink or smoke).
He may have been autistic or aspergers but it's highly unlikely that he suffered from mental illness or low intelligence.
Lastly, what books did he check out with David Ferrie's library card? :D