JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Frederick Clements on July 07, 2019, 11:15:29 AM
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What are your thoughts regarding this?
Fred
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Ruby was a nut-job, simple as that. In his twisted mind, he'd be celebrated as a hero and let go.
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Ruby was a nut-job, simple as that. In his twisted mind, he'd be celebrated as a hero and let go.
Yes, it was a spur of the moment impulse decision by someone who was known to react that way. Most people who knew Ruby said that they were not surprised that Jack reacted the way he did.
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Yes, it was a spur of the moment impulse decision by someone who was known to react that way. Most people who knew Ruby said that they were not surprised that Jack reacted the way he did.
I think of the flight of three people, from Dallas, on November 23; two of whom only returned after Oswald had been shot.
John Liggett suddenly left the Oak Cliff graveside funeral of a family member when word of the assassination was related to him there. He had been gone for 24 hours when he came back to scoop-up his family, without explanation, and headed south. His state of high anxiety and chain smoking was immediately alleviated after having watched the murder of LHO from a hotel room. He then told his family that it was safe to go home, and they did so.
Igor Vaganov, also from Oak Cliff, was checked-out by police hours after the assassination. He then hopped in a car and headed to Philadelphia, not returning until Oswald was dead.
Larry Crafard, employee of Jack Ruby, who lived in the Carousel Lounge, woke-up Saturday morning, after spending the wee hours of the 23rd driving around Dallas with Ruby and George Senator, while Ruby did strange things, and fled Dallas by foot and thumb with $7 in his pocket. He was located weeks later hiding-out with an aunt in an isolated farm house in Michigan.
Why?
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I think of the flight of three people, from Dallas, on November 23; two of whom only returned after Oswald had been shot.
John Liggett suddenly left the Oak Cliff graveside funeral of a family member when word of the assassination was related to him there. He had been gone for 24 hours when he came back to scoop-up his family, without explanation, and headed south. His state of high anxiety and chain smoking was immediately alleviated after having watched the murder of LHO from a hotel room. He then told his family that it was safe to go home, and they did so.
Igor Vaganov, also from Oak Cliff, was checked-out by police hours after the assassination. He then hopped in a car and headed to Philadelphia, not returning until Oswald was dead.
Larry Crafard, employee of Jack Ruby, who lived in the Carousel Lounge, woke-up Saturday morning, after spending the wee hours of the 23rd driving around Dallas with Ruby and George Senator, while Ruby did strange things, and fled Dallas by foot and thumb with $7 in his pocket. He was located weeks later hiding-out with an aunt in an isolated farm house in Michigan.
Why?
And what conclusion does that lead you to, Michael?
That the evil, evil, evil CIA killed JFK?
-- MWT ;)
Btw, last week you posted a memo by your hero at CIA, Harold J. Osborn, in which he claimed that another hero of yours, (false) defector Yuri Nosenko, had greatly helped the CIA.
At that time, I challenged you to post the name of anyone whom Nosenko had helped the CIA or FBI to "uncover" who: 1) wasn't already suspected, or 2) was still actively working for the KGB/GRU, or 3) still had access to classified material.
Thought of anyone, yet?
LOL
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Yes, it was a spur of the moment impulse decision by someone who was known to react that way. Most people who knew Ruby said that they were not surprised that Jack reacted the way he did.
Yes, friends and colleagues recount how he would literally punch someone out - viciously so - and then calmly sit down and continue with a conversation. Not isolated incidents of this type; but repeated ones.
The problem with thinking about the conspiracy, or one of them, is that we have too much information about it. It's ironic that we believe that the more we know about an event the more we would understand it. Why it happened, who did it, how does it fit into History.
But in this case all of this information distracts us, takes us away from what happened. People think that because this was a great event that there must have been a great cause for it. Therefore all of this information - Ruby was an informant for the FBI! And he associated with the mob! - needs to be put into the event. We simply can't have Oswald on one side and JFK on the other. This information must balance things out. But most of it doesn't.
We look at what we have; we consider the alternative explanations; and we make a judgment. The best explanation, the one that best fits into what we know is that Oswald shot JFK. These other explanations are simply implausible and don't make sense when you drill down into them.
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We look at what we have; we consider the alternative explanations; and we make a judgment. The best explanation, the one that best fits into what we know is that Oswald shot JFK. These other explanations are simply implausible and don't make sense when you drill down into them.
Simply put, simply brilliant. Thumb1: Thumb1: Thumb1:
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..........
-- MWT ;)
Btw, last week you posted a memo by your hero at CIA, Harold J. Osborn, in which he claimed that another hero of yours, (false) defector Yuri Nosenko, had greatly helped the CIA.
At that time, I challenged you to post the name of anyone whom Nosenko had helped the CIA or FBI to "uncover" who: 1) wasn't already suspected, or 2) was still actively working for the KGB/GRU, or 3) still had access to classified material.
Thought of anyone, yet?
LOL
“Effective from June 11th, 2019.”
“All reported or observed non-compliant misdemeanours will carry a Minimum, of between 2 to 7 Days Posting Suspension, if reported or observed within a reasonable time frame. “
“Thread, and/or Posts considered to be motivated by Sectarianism, will be deleted.”
“Non thread creating disruptors will be suspended from posting for a to be determined period of time.”
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.....
Michael Clark partially quoted me by posting this:
..........
-- MWT ;)
Btw, last week you posted a memo by your hero at CIA, Harold J. Osborn, in which he claimed that another hero of yours, (false) defector Yuri Nosenko, had greatly helped the CIA.
At that time, I challenged you to post the name of anyone whom Nosenko had helped the CIA or FBI to "uncover" who: 1) wasn't already suspected, or 2) was still actively working for the KGB/GRU, or 3) still had access to classified material.
Thought of anyone, yet?
LOL
Dear Michael,
Why did you delete the part of my post that directly related to the topic of this thread in your reply? You know, where you replaced my "And what conclusion does that lead you to, Michael? That the evil, evil, evil CIA killed JFK?" with ".........." above my "signature"?
-- MWT ;)
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If Ruby killed Oswald for the mob, he did it for Castro-agent Santo Trafficante.
I think it's more likely, though, that he felt he was just doing his patriotic duty.
-- MWT ;)
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If Ruby killed Oswald for the mob, he did it for Castro-agent Santo Trafficante.
I think it's more likely, though, that he felt he was just doing his patriotic duty.
-- MWT ;)
Thomas, can you share some evidence that Trafficante was Castro agent?
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Thomas, can you share some evidence that Trafficante was Castro agent?
Dear Michael,
Yes, most definitely, but not for you, and especially not until you attempt to answer my challenge to you, above (and elsewhere on this forum).
Shall I start a special thread for you on that?
-- MWT ;)
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Dear Michael,
Yes, most definitely, but not for you, and especially not until you attempt to answer my challenge to you, above (and elsewhere on this forum).
Shall I start a special thread for you on that?
-- MWT ;)
Dear Thomas, I didn’t think so.
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Dear Thomas, I didn’t think so.
Dear Michael,
Just as I intuit that you won't even try to meet that challenge.
Aren't you going to look up what Tommy Mangold, or Jefferson "Intellectually Dishonest" Morley have to say on the subject?
Or, or, or ... John L. Hart, author of "The Monster Plot"?
-- MWT ;)
PS You do know that Trafficante was the first mobster Castro let out of prison, and that Hemming claimed that Trafficante was Castro's conduit for running narcotics into the U.S., don't you?
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1) He was the most hated man in America (if not the world)
2) He had the misfortune to encounter a nut job with a gun (ironic under the circumstances)
3) In an effort to be as transparent as possible, the DPD inadvertently put Oswald's safety at risk by allowing the press to make a circus in the hallways and basement of the building (again ironic)
4) Bad Luck. If Ruby is minutes or even a few more seconds later running his errands that morning, then Oswald's transfer goes as planned.
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What are your thoughts regarding this?
Fred
Why Was Oswald Killed?
To shut him up and stop the investigation of the JFK and Tippit murders from going any farther.
--------------------------------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=39609&imageO... (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=39609&imageO...)
HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Creation of the Warren Commission
"...On November 23,1963, J. Edgar Hoover forwarded the results of the FBI's preliminary investigation to him.(LBJ) This
report detailed the evidence that indicated LHO's guilt.
On November 24, 1963, Hoover telephoned President Johnson aide Walter Jenkins and stated:"The thing I am concerned about,
and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin..."
------------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5)
ARRB MD 41 - White House Transcript of Dallas Press Conference
-snip-
Q. Where was the entrance wound?
Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.
Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?
Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.
-snip-
Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?
Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.
-snip-
-----------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44)
Mary Ferrell Chronologies, Volume 4 - November 22, 1963
Current Section: Testimony of Eye-Witnesses Who Thought Shots Came From Other Than TSBD
1. Danny Garcia Arces - Shots came from railroad track yards.
2. Mrs. Donald Sam Baker - Shots came from railroad yards;not possible to come from the TSBD.
3. Mrs. A. G.(Jane)Berry- Thought shots came from west of her position.
4. O. V. Campbell - Thought shots came from railroad yard to west of the TSBD.
5. Mrs. Charles Thomas (Avery) Davis - Thought shots came from triple underpass.
6. Mrs. John T. (Elsie) Dorman) - She was on the 4th floor of TSBD and thought shots came from Records Building.
7. Mr. and Mrs. Jack Franzen - Thought shots came from area adjacent to TSBD.
8. Buell Wesley Frazier - Thought shots came from railroad overpass.
9. Dorthy Ann Garner - Thought shots came from west of TSBD (she was on 4th floor or TSBD)
10. Bobby W. Hargis - Believes shot came from right front (grassy knoll area) - from overpass
11. Mrs. John Hawkins - Thought shots came from railroad yards adjacent to TSBD.
12. Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill - Thought shots were coming from the knoll, just west of the TSBD.
13. Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes - Thought shots came from crowd.
14. Mrs. Yola D. Hopson - Did not think the sound (of the shots) came from the TSBD.
15. Emmet Joseph Hudson - Shots came from behind and above him; from rear, high. (He was on steps leading up knoll)
16. Mrs. George Andrew Kounas - Thought shots came from the west.
17. Secret Service Agent Paul E. Landis Jr. - 1st shot came from behind and over right shoulder; 2nd shot came from right front and hit President's head.
18. Billy Nolan Lovelady - Thought shots came from the knoll of from across the street.
19. Judith L. McCully - From right side of arcade building.
20. Austin Lawerence Miller - Shots came from his left (he was standing on the triple underpass).
21. A. J. Millican - Shots came from the pergola.
22. Joe R. Molina - Shots came from west side (he was on steps of TSBD.
23. Thomas J. Murphy - Shots came from spot just west of TSBD.
24. Mrs. P. E. Newman - Shots came from her right (west). She was halfway from TSBD to Stemmons Freeway sign.
25. William E Newman, Jr. - Shots came from "garden" directly behind Newman (he was standing at east end of pergola)
26. Mrs. William V. Parker - First shot came from pergola.
27. J. C. Price - Assumed shots from Triple Underpass.
28. Frank E. Reilly - Shots came from trees at west end of pergola on north side of Elm. (He was standing on Triple Underpass).
29. Mrs. A. L. Rowland - Shots came from railroad yard.
30. W. H. (Bill) Shelly - Shots came from west (he was on TSBD steps)
31. Police Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. - Shots came from railroad yard or grassy knoll area.
32. Officer Joe Marshall Smith - Thought shots came from Elm St.extension, bushes of the overpass.
33. Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels - Shots came from knoll;'top of terrace to my right.
34. James Thomas Tague - Shots came from bushes at pergola.
35. Roy S. Truly - Shots came from west of TSBD.
36. Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford - Shots came from railroad yard.
37. County Surveyor Robert M. West - Shots came from northeast quadrant of Dealy Plaza.
38. Lupe Whitaker - Shots came from west of TSBD.
39. Otis Neville Williams - Came from direction of Triple Underpass.
40. Steven F. Wilson - Shots came from west end of building or pergola; not above.
(He was on 3rd floor of TSBD)
41. Mary Elizabeth Woodward - Possibly came from overpass.
42. Abraham Zapruder - Shots came from in back of him.
43. Deputy Sheriff Harold Elkins
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I believe Oswald was supposed to be murdered by his co-conspirators prior to his run-in with Tippit.
Oswald’s arrest wasn’t part of the original plan. Once he was in police custody, Jack Ruby was one of the few underworld-connected people who were able to get close enough to take him out.
Ruby wasn’t an ideal assassin but he was in debt and had Cancer...
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Why Was Oswald Killed?
To shut him up and stop the investigation of the JFK and Tippit murders from going any farther.
--------------------------------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=39609&imageO... (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=39609&imageO...)
HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Creation of the Warren Commission
"...On November 23,1963, J. Edgar Hoover forwarded the results of the FBI's preliminary investigation to him.(LBJ) This
report detailed the evidence that indicated LHO's guilt.
On November 24, 1963, Hoover telephoned President Johnson aide Walter Jenkins and stated:"The thing I am concerned about,
and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin..."
------------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5)
ARRB MD 41 - White House Transcript of Dallas Press Conference
-snip-
Q. Where was the entrance wound?
Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.
Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?
Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.
-snip-
Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?
Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.
-snip-
-----------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44)
Mary Ferrell Chronologies, Volume 4 - November 22, 1963
Current Section: Testimony of Eye-Witnesses Who Thought Shots Came From Other Than TSBD
1. Danny Garcia Arces - Shots came from railroad track yards.
2. Mrs. Donald Sam Baker - Shots came from railroad yards;not possible to come from the TSBD.
3. Mrs. A. G.(Jane)Berry- Thought shots came from west of her position.
4. O. V. Campbell - Thought shots came from railroad yard to west of the TSBD.
5. Mrs. Charles Thomas (Avery) Davis - Thought shots came from triple underpass.
6. Mrs. John T. (Elsie) Dorman) - She was on the 4th floor of TSBD and thought shots came from Records Building.
7. Mr. and Mrs. Jack Franzen - Thought shots came from area adjacent to TSBD.
8. Buell Wesley Frazier - Thought shots came from railroad overpass.
9. Dorthy Ann Garner - Thought shots came from west of TSBD (she was on 4th floor or TSBD)
10. Bobby W. Hargis - Believes shot came from right front (grassy knoll area) - from overpass
11. Mrs. John Hawkins - Thought shots came from railroad yards adjacent to TSBD.
12. Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill - Thought shots were coming from the knoll, just west of the TSBD.
13. Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes - Thought shots came from crowd.
14. Mrs. Yola D. Hopson - Did not think the sound (of the shots) came from the TSBD.
15. Emmet Joseph Hudson - Shots came from behind and above him; from rear, high. (He was on steps leading up knoll)
16. Mrs. George Andrew Kounas - Thought shots came from the west.
17. Secret Service Agent Paul E. Landis Jr. - 1st shot came from behind and over right shoulder; 2nd shot came from right front and hit President's head.
18. Billy Nolan Lovelady - Thought shots came from the knoll of from across the street.
19. Judith L. McCully - From right side of arcade building.
20. Austin Lawerence Miller - Shots came from his left (he was standing on the triple underpass).
21. A. J. Millican - Shots came from the pergola.
22. Joe R. Molina - Shots came from west side (he was on steps of TSBD.
23. Thomas J. Murphy - Shots came from spot just west of TSBD.
24. Mrs. P. E. Newman - Shots came from her right (west). She was halfway from TSBD to Stemmons Freeway sign.
25. William E Newman, Jr. - Shots came from "garden" directly behind Newman (he was standing at east end of pergola)
26. Mrs. William V. Parker - First shot came from pergola.
27. J. C. Price - Assumed shots from Triple Underpass.
28. Frank E. Reilly - Shots came from trees at west end of pergola on north side of Elm. (He was standing on Triple Underpass).
29. Mrs. A. L. Rowland - Shots came from railroad yard.
30. W. H. (Bill) Shelly - Shots came from west (he was on TSBD steps)
31. Police Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. - Shots came from railroad yard or grassy knoll area.
32. Officer Joe Marshall Smith - Thought shots came from Elm St.extension, bushes of the overpass.
33. Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels - Shots came from knoll;'top of terrace to my right.
34. James Thomas Tague - Shots came from bushes at pergola.
35. Roy S. Truly - Shots came from west of TSBD.
36. Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford - Shots came from railroad yard.
37. County Surveyor Robert M. West - Shots came from northeast quadrant of Dealy Plaza.
38. Lupe Whitaker - Shots came from west of TSBD.
39. Otis Neville Williams - Came from direction of Triple Underpass.
40. Steven F. Wilson - Shots came from west end of building or pergola; not above.
(He was on 3rd floor of TSBD)
41. Mary Elizabeth Woodward - Possibly came from overpass.
42. Abraham Zapruder - Shots came from in back of him.
43. Deputy Sheriff Harold Elkins
Thanks for the list Gary, what I find interesting is that the majority of these ear-witnesses seem to describe that ALL the shots came from one area or another, so it seems that not many ear-witnesses describe shots coming from multiple directions which by definition must mean only one assassin.
Both Kennedy and Connally were shot in the back therefore the only one assassin must have been behind.
Connally's torso wounds from his armpit to below his right nipple, indicates that the only one assassin was high and behind.
The recovered bullet fragments found in the Limo were exclusively linked to the weapon found on the 6th floor of the Depository.
The 3 shells found at the 6th floor snipers nest were exclusively linked to C2766.
C2766 was linked to Lee Harvey Oswald's purchase order, prints and matching shirt fibers, and who strangely enough had no alibi, fled the building and killed a cop.
JohnM
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C2766 was linked to Lee Harvey Oswald's purchase order,
LOL
prints
LOL
and matching shirt fibers,
LOL
and who strangely enough had no alibi,
LOL
fled the building
LOL
and killed a cop.
LOL
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Why Was Oswald Killed?
To shut him up and stop the investigation of the JFK and Tippit murders from going any farther.
--------------------------------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=39609&imageO... (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=39609&imageO...)
HSCA Report, Volume XI
Current Section: Creation of the Warren Commission
"...On November 23,1963, J. Edgar Hoover forwarded the results of the FBI's preliminary investigation to him.(LBJ) This
report detailed the evidence that indicated LHO's guilt.
On November 24, 1963, Hoover telephoned President Johnson aide Walter Jenkins and stated:"The thing I am concerned about,
and so is Mr. Katzenbach, is having something issued so we can convince the public that Oswald is the real assassin..."
------------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=622&relPageId=5)
ARRB MD 41 - White House Transcript of Dallas Press Conference
-snip-
Q. Where was the entrance wound?
Dr.Perry: There was an entrance wound in the neck, in regards the one on the
head, I cannot say.
Q. Which way was the bullet coming on the neck wound? At him?
Dr.Perry: It appeared to be coming at him.
-snip-
Q. Doctor, describe the entrance wound. You think from the front in the throat?
Dr.Perry: The wound appeared to be an entrance wound in the front of the throat; yes,
that is correct.
-snip-
-----------------------
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44 (http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44)
Mary Ferrell Chronologies, Volume 4 - November 22, 1963
Current Section: Testimony of Eye-Witnesses Who Thought Shots Came From Other Than TSBD
1. Danny Garcia Arces - Shots came from railroad track yards.
2. Mrs. Donald Sam Baker - Shots came from railroad yards;not possible to come from the TSBD.
3. Mrs. A. G.(Jane)Berry- Thought shots came from west of her position.
4. O. V. Campbell - Thought shots came from railroad yard to west of the TSBD.
5. Mrs. Charles Thomas (Avery) Davis - Thought shots came from triple underpass.
6. Mrs. John T. (Elsie) Dorman) - She was on the 4th floor of TSBD and thought shots came from Records Building.
7. Mr. and Mrs. Jack Franzen - Thought shots came from area adjacent to TSBD.
8. Buell Wesley Frazier - Thought shots came from railroad overpass.
9. Dorthy Ann Garner - Thought shots came from west of TSBD (she was on 4th floor or TSBD)
10. Bobby W. Hargis - Believes shot came from right front (grassy knoll area) - from overpass
11. Mrs. John Hawkins - Thought shots came from railroad yards adjacent to TSBD.
12. Mrs. Jean Lollis Hill - Thought shots were coming from the knoll, just west of the TSBD.
13. Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes - Thought shots came from crowd.
14. Mrs. Yola D. Hopson - Did not think the sound (of the shots) came from the TSBD.
15. Emmet Joseph Hudson - Shots came from behind and above him; from rear, high. (He was on steps leading up knoll)
16. Mrs. George Andrew Kounas - Thought shots came from the west.
17. Secret Service Agent Paul E. Landis Jr. - 1st shot came from behind and over right shoulder; 2nd shot came from right front and hit President's head.
18. Billy Nolan Lovelady - Thought shots came from the knoll of from across the street.
19. Judith L. McCully - From right side of arcade building.
20. Austin Lawerence Miller - Shots came from his left (he was standing on the triple underpass).
21. A. J. Millican - Shots came from the pergola.
22. Joe R. Molina - Shots came from west side (he was on steps of TSBD.
23. Thomas J. Murphy - Shots came from spot just west of TSBD.
24. Mrs. P. E. Newman - Shots came from her right (west). She was halfway from TSBD to Stemmons Freeway sign.
25. William E Newman, Jr. - Shots came from "garden" directly behind Newman (he was standing at east end of pergola)
26. Mrs. William V. Parker - First shot came from pergola.
27. J. C. Price - Assumed shots from Triple Underpass.
28. Frank E. Reilly - Shots came from trees at west end of pergola on north side of Elm. (He was standing on Triple Underpass).
29. Mrs. A. L. Rowland - Shots came from railroad yard.
30. W. H. (Bill) Shelly - Shots came from west (he was on TSBD steps)
31. Police Officer Edgar Leon Smith, Jr. - Shots came from railroad yard or grassy knoll area.
32. Officer Joe Marshall Smith - Thought shots came from Elm St.extension, bushes of the overpass.
33. Secret Service Agent Forrest Sorrels - Shots came from knoll;'top of terrace to my right.
34. James Thomas Tague - Shots came from bushes at pergola.
35. Roy S. Truly - Shots came from west of TSBD.
36. Deputy Sheriff Harry Weatherford - Shots came from railroad yard.
37. County Surveyor Robert M. West - Shots came from northeast quadrant of Dealy Plaza.
38. Lupe Whitaker - Shots came from west of TSBD.
39. Otis Neville Williams - Came from direction of Triple Underpass.
40. Steven F. Wilson - Shots came from west end of building or pergola; not above.
(He was on 3rd floor of TSBD)
41. Mary Elizabeth Woodward - Possibly came from overpass.
42. Abraham Zapruder - Shots came from in back of him.
43. Deputy Sheriff Harold Elkins
What, no echoes? Recruit your list to tell soldiers in urban firefight settings how to pinpoint gunfire locations.
43 opinions = 0 shooters seen
Now present the list that said TSBD
Anybody see a shooter there?
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What, no echoes? Recruit your list to tell soldiers in urban firefight settings how to pinpoint gunfire locations.
43 opinions = 0 shooters seen
False. Jean Hill, Rosemary Willis, Gordon Arnold, Ed Hoffman all reported a knoll shooter.
Now present the list that said TSBD
Anybody see a shooter there?
Yes, Howard "from the belt up" Brennan and Amos "bald spot" Euins.
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False. Jean Hill, Rosemary Willis, Gordon Arnold, Ed Hoffman all reported a knoll shooter.
Nice, some corroboration and a probable solution. Congrats!
What did the Knoll assassin look like?
Were they tall or short?
What was he wearing?
Where was he standing exactly?
Was there 2 people or only one?
Which direction did they go?
JohnM
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Nice, some corroboration and a probable solution. Congrats!
What did the Knoll assassin look like?
Were they tall or short?
What was he wearing?
Where was he standing exactly?
Was there 2 people or only one?
Which direction did they go?
Good questions.
What did the 6th floor shooter look like?
Was he tall or short?
What was he wearing?
Where was he standing exactly?
Was there 2 people or only one?
Which direction did they go?
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Good questions.
Thanks, your eyewitnesses(Jean Hill, Rosemary Willis, Gordon Arnold, Ed Hoffman) saw someone, does their evidence corroborate?
JohnM
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Thanks, your eyewitnesses(Jean Hill, Rosemary Willis, Gordon Arnold, Ed Hoffman) saw someone, does their evidence corroborate?
Not any better or worse than the two 6th floor shooter witnesses.
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What, no echoes? Recruit your list to tell soldiers in urban firefight settings how to pinpoint gunfire locations...
Recruit your list yadda blah blah ... I object to Chapman once again cruising completely off topic and wasting web space as usual and contributing nothing new.
It is obvious that Ruby gunned down Oswald to silence him because Oswald still remains silent. Probably, orders were to make sure that Oswald did not arrive at Parkland Hospital alive.
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Nice, some corroboration and a probable solution. Congrats!
What did the Knoll assassin look like?
Were they tall or short?
What was he wearing?
Where was he standing exactly?
Was there 2 people or only one?
Which direction did they go?
JohnM
Where is the proof that the Knoll assassin owned a gun (remember order forms in his handwriting, photos, prints, confirmation of his wife etc don't cut it)
Who saw him pull the trigger?
Where did he buy his ammo?
What type of underwear was he wearing?
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Where is the proof that the Knoll assassin owned a gun (remember order forms in his handwriting, photos, prints, confirmation of his wife etc don't cut it)
Who saw him pull the trigger?
Where did he buy his ammo?
What type of underwear was he wearing?
Ask yourself the same questions about Oswald and perhaps you'll see why they are not helpful.
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Where is the proof that the Knoll assassin owned a gun (remember order forms in his handwriting, photos, prints, confirmation of his wife etc don't cut it)
Who saw him pull the trigger?
Where did he buy his ammo?
What type of underwear was he wearing?
how about an exact timeline, LOL, showing the knoll assassin's movements prior to arriving at the knoll, and leaving the scene (remember, descending 4 flights of stairs inside a building unnoticed in 90-120 seconds doesn't cut it)
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False. Jean Hill, Rosemary Willis, Gordon Arnold, Ed Hoffman all reported a knoll shooter.
Yes, Howard "from the belt up" Brennan and Amos "bald spot" Euins.
??? Yeah? Knoll shooter? What did he look like?
Jean Hill, for one, changed her opinion, years later, about actually 'seeing' a shooter... in effect 'disappearing' the 'shooter' she initially claimed was standing beside a tree.
IIRC ;)
Euins also described a 'white spot' along with a 'bald spot'... both versions incapable of hair growth, as it turns out.
Oswald had such areas on his head, especially near the front.. a 2.5" loss of follicle coverage, apparently.
Just sayin'.. but hey now*, it's a start, huh?
*Cite: 'Hank' on The Larry Sanders Show
(RIP Rip Torn)
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??? Yeah? Knoll shooter? What did he look like?
Depends on who you ask. Just like the TSBD shooter.
Jean Hill, for one, changed her opinion, years later, about actually 'seeing' a shooter... in effect 'disappearing' the 'shooter' she initially claimed was standing beside a tree.
Yes she did. And both Howard Brennan and Amos Euins changed their stories multiple times after the assassination.
Euins also described a 'white spot' along with a 'bald spot'... both incapable of hair growth.
Oswald had such areas on his head, especially near the front.. a 2.5" loss of follicle coverage, apparently.
Just sayin'.. but hey now*, it's a start, huh?
No, not really. Just a transparent attempt to jam a square peg into a round hole.
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle.
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Depends on who you ask. Just like the TSBD shooter.
Yes she did. And both Howard Brennan and Amos Euins changed their stories multiple times after the assassination.
No, not really. Just a transparent attempt to jam a square peg into a round hole.
Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle.
Bottom line: Euins and Brennan saw the shooter whether you like it or not. Euins description of the hairline matches Oswald's hairline whether you like it or not.
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??? Yeah? Knoll shooter? What did he look like?
Jean Hill, for one, changed her opinion, years later, about actually 'seeing' a shooter... in effect 'disappearing' the 'shooter' she initially claimed was standing beside a tree.
IIRC ;)
Euins also described a 'white spot' along with a 'bald spot'... both versions incapable of hair growth, as it turns out.
Oswald had such areas on his head, especially near the front.. a 2.5" loss of follicle coverage, apparently.
Just sayin'.. but hey now*, it's a start, huh?
*Cite: 'Hank' on The Larry Sanders Show
(RIP Rip Torn)
Euins also described a 'white spot' along with a 'bald spot'... both versions incapable of hair growth, as it turns out.
Oswald had such areas on his head, especially near the front.. a 2.5" loss of follicle coverage, apparently.
The CT argument here doesn't make sense, Oswald was 6 floor up and it's obvious that Euins could not have seen a classic bald spot but he would have seen a very common frontal bald spot and poor Oswald with the sun overhead bearing down on his lack of hair follicles makes the problem 10 times worse, just ask anyone with a combover! Early Baldness may have been another reason that Oswald lost the plot, it seems in my experience that a lot of bald people are just really hostile and lash out aggressively for some reason?
JohnM
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Mr. UNDERWOOD. Yes; and I ran down there and I think I took some pictures of some men--yes, I know I did, going in and out of the building. By that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name I remember as Eunice.
Mr. BALL. Euins?
Mr. UNDERWOOD. It may have been Euins. It was difficult to understand when he said his name. He was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle.
Why do you feel the need to post other people's recollections who say "It may have been Euins" which by CT standards makes him completely unreliable, when we have Euins first day affidavit which says it was a white man and later after Euins thinks more about it, he says in his testimony that he simply wasn't sure. Imo Euins was only a young boy who just looked at everyone equally unlike the racism and female bashing that goes on here.
(http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1284-001.gif)
Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos?
Mr. EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white man?
Mr. EUINS. No, sir.
JohnM
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The CT argument here doesn't make sense, Oswald was 6 floor up and it's obvious that Euins could not have seen a classic bald spot but he would have seen a very common frontal bald spot and poor Oswald with the sun overhead bearing down on his lack of hair follicles makes the problem 10 times worse, just ask anyone with a combover! Early Baldness may have been another reason that Oswald lost the plot, it seems in my experience that a lot of bald people are just really hostile and lash out aggressively for some reason?
JohnM
Oswald was 6 floor up
There is no credible evidence of Oswald being on the 6th floor at the time of the killing.
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There is no credible evidence of Oswald being on the 6th floor at the time of the killing.
Where was he?
JohnM
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Where was he?
JohnM
I don't know, you claimed he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD..... so, back up that claim.
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I don't know....
Exactly, Oswald had no alibi.
JohnM
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Exactly, Oswald had no alibi.
JohnM
This is LN "logic", right?
You say Oswald had no alibi, so he must have been on the 6th floor?
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This is LN "logic", right?
You say Oswald had no alibi, so he must have been on the 6th floor?
It's just more evidence, like the following;
Oswald has no alibi.
Oswald's rifle was on the 6th floor.
Oswald's rifle is exclusively linked to the shells in the sniper's nest.
Oswald's rifle is exclusively linked to CE399 and two fragments found in the Limo.
Oswald's rifle has matching fibers to Oswald's arrest shirt.
Oswald's prints were on the barrel and according to experienced fingerprint expert Scalice, on the trigger guard.
Oswald's fresh(within days) prints on the Rolling reader box, was moved over 40 feet and angled down Elm street as were Oswald's prints.
Brennan's description of the man he saw on the 6th floor is a close match to Oswald.
Other eyewitnesses report a rifle or a pipe like object in the window
Oswald is seen moving around getting a coke about 90 seconds later while just outside is total pandemonium, almost everyone in the building heard shots I wonder if Oswald did?
So as I said it's all about the evidence and without a bogeyman all you got is a lot of non focused nonsense and unconnected wild accusations.
JohnM
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It's just more evidence, like the following;
Oswald has no alibi.
Oswald's rifle was on the 6th floor.
Oswald's rifle is exclusively linked to the shells in the sniper's nest.
Oswald's rifle is exclusively linked to CE399 and two fragments found in the Limo.
Oswald's rifle has matching fibers to Oswald's arrest shirt.
Oswald's prints were on the barrel and according to experienced fingerprint expert Scalice, on the trigger guard.
Oswald's fresh(within days) prints on the Rolling reader box, was moved over 40 feet and angled down Elm street as were Oswald's prints.
Brennan's description of the man he saw on the 6th floor is a close match to Oswald.
Other eyewitnesses report a rifle or a pipe like object in the window
Oswald is seen moving around getting a coke about 90 seconds later while just outside is total pandemonium, almost everyone in the building heard shots I wonder if Oswald did?
So as I said it's all about the evidence and without a bogeyman all you got is a lot of non focused nonsense and unconnected wild accusations.
JohnM
All highly questionable and circumstantial and none of it is proof of Oswald being on the 6th floor at the time of the shooting.
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Bottom line: Euins and Brennan saw the shooter whether you like it or not.
Is this supposed to impress anyone? I could just as easily say that Hill, Willis, Arnold, and Hoffman saw the shooter whether you like it or not.
Euins description of the hairline matches Oswald's hairline whether you like it or not.
Sorry, Oswald didn't have a bald spot. Nor was he a "colored man".
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It's just more evidence, like the following;
Same tired propaganda.
Oswald has no alibi.
Neither did at least 6 people in the TSBD alone.
Oswald's rifle was on the 6th floor.
Oswald's rifle is exclusively linked to the shells in the sniper's nest.
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
Oswald's rifle is exclusively linked to CE399 and two fragments found in the Limo.
CE 399 can't be connected with the murder in any way.
The fragments allegedly "found in the limo" have no chain of custody.
Oswald's rifle has matching fibers to Oswald's arrest shirt.
And by "matching" you mean not identifiable as having come from any particular shirt.
Oswald's prints were on the barrel
Wrong. A single partial palmprint was found a week later on an index card.
and according to experienced fingerprint expert Scalice, on the trigger guard.
No, Scalice examined photographs that he was told were of the trigger guard of CE 139 and a fingerprint card that he was told was Oswald's, 30 years after the fact. The expert who actually examined the weapon in 1963 said they were useless for identification purposes. Scalice never disclosed what his matching points of idenfication were or his basis for his opinion.
Oswald's fresh(within days) prints on the Rolling reader box,
His job was getting books out of boxes.
was moved over 40 feet and angled down Elm street as were Oswald's prints.
There's no way to determine who moved the boxes, or when, or why.
Brennan's description of the man he saw on the 6th floor is a close match to Oswald.
and by "close match", you mean wrong height, wrong age, wrong weight, and wrong clothing.
Other eyewitnesses report a rifle or a pipe like object in the window
Not sure what that has to do with Oswald.
Oswald is seen moving around getting a coke about 90 seconds later while just outside is total pandemonium, almost everyone in the building heard shots I wonder if Oswald did?
Not sure why this is in a list of "evidence".
So as I said it's all about the evidence and without a bogeyman all you got is a lot of non focused nonsense and unconnected wild accusations.
No, for you it's all about misrepresenting evidence and pretending that unsupportable conclusions about the evidence is evidence itself.
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Same tired propaganda
>>> Same Iacoletti canned troll-$peak
Neither did at least 6 people in the TSBD alone.
>>> Oswald thus blended in with your gang of 6+. Marine training, you see. Blend in with the local yokels when attempting to lessen 'eyes on'
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
>>> Nah. Hidell's ;)
CE 399 can't be connected with the murder in any way.
>>> Cool. Any idea what caused the significantly-flattened butt end?
Any idea why you 'researchers' don't post that butt-end view?
His job was getting books out of boxes.
>>> Did his job description include pointing boxes out a window aimed straight down Elm?
There's no way to determine who moved the boxes, or when, or why
>>> There's a way to determine the odds of having Oswald's prints on two corners of a box in a window aimed straight down Elm
and by "close match", you mean wrong height, wrong age, wrong weight, and wrong clothing
>>> Take a look at Oswald's after-capture photos and tell us that he couldn't pass for 30 or more. Take a look at Oswald's thick neck and tell us that wouldn't add several pounds visually. (@Lurkers: Author Dan deLillo wrote something to the effect that Oswald had the 'thick neck of a fullback'). And clothing will looker lighter in bright sunlight especially when contrasted with deep shadow.
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Is this supposed to impress anyone? I could just as easily say that Hill, Willis, Arnold, and Hoffman saw the shooter whether you like it or not.
Sorry, Oswald didn't have a bald spot. Nor was he a "colored man".
Euins saw a white spot, 2'5" back from the hairline at the front
Same as Oswald's.
Point out where your 'witnesses' saw a rifle being aimed at something. Anything.
Jean Hill years later said she didn't see a shooter.
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Euins saw a white spot, 2'5" back from the hairline at the front
Same as Oswald's.
Jean Hill years later said she didn't see a shooter.
Please supply evidence for the above statement.
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>>> Same Iacoletti canned troll-$peak
Says the guy getting ready to spew another litany of irrelevancies.
Neither did at least 6 people in the TSBD alone.
>>> Oswald thus blended in with your gang of 6+. Marine training, you see. Blend in with the local yokels when attempting to lessen 'eyes on'
Is this pithy remark supposed to change the relevance of the supposed "no alibi" "evidence"?
"Oswald's rifle". LOL.
>>> Nah. Hidell's ;)
Is this pithy remark supposed to make it "Oswald's rifle"?
CE 399 can't be connected with the murder in any way.
>>> Cool. Any idea what caused the significantly-flattened butt end?
Lots of ideas can be dreamed up. Just no evidence for any particular one.
Any idea why you 'researchers' don't post that butt-end view?
I don't know who you're referring to.
His job was getting books out of boxes.
>>> Did his job description include pointing boxes out a window aimed straight down Elm?
What makes you think he "pointed boxes out a window aimed straight down Elm"?
There's no way to determine who moved the boxes, or when, or why
>>> There's a way to determine the odds of having Oswald's prints on two corners of a box in a window aimed straight down Elm
Really, now? Go for it. Show your work.
and by "close match", you mean wrong height, wrong age, wrong weight, and wrong clothing
>>> Take a look at Oswald's after-capture photos and tell us that he couldn't pass for 30 or more. Take a look at Oswald's thick neck and tell us that wouldn't add several pounds visually.
Is this pithy remark supposed to change the fact that Brennan's description wasn't a "close match" to Oswald?
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Euins saw a white spot, 2'5" back from the hairline at the front
Same as Oswald's.
Are you channeling Euins now? How do you know he's describing anything that's the "same as Oswald's"?
Point out where your 'witnesses' saw a rifle being aimed at something. Anything.
First you make an issue of your "witnesses" seeing a rifle at all (or what they thought was a rifle). When that wasn't unique enough, then you decide to make an "aimed at something" distinction. Nice special pleading.
How would any witnesss know whether or not a "rifle" was being aimed at something?
Jean Hill years later said she didn't see a shooter.
"If memory serves", right? Actually, you have it backwards. But so what? Years later Brennan said he saw the president's head explode. The point is, you either recognize that witness testimony is unreliable or you don't. Gorillas playing basketball and all that.
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The point is, you either recognize that witness testimony is unreliable or you don't.
In Iacoletti's case, testimony is unreliable if it can't be interpreted as exonerating Oswald.
-- MWT ;)
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Are you channeling Euins now? How do you know he's describing anything that's the "same as Oswald's"?
>>> Euins channeled himself. Oswald's head is proof of the 2.5" similarity to the Euin description.
First you make an issue of your "witnesses" seeing a rifle at all (or what they thought was a rifle). When that wasn't unique enough, then you decide to make an "aimed at something" distinction. Nice special pleading.
>>> Not so fast: The 'aiming at something' is in reference to your claim that Hill, etc saw shooters.
How would any witnesss know whether or not a "rifle" was being aimed at something?
>>> Are you talking about your witnesses like Jean Hill saw/didn't see/didn't see/saw; or 'my' witnesses? Again, which of your Jean Hill-type claimed witnesses saw anybody aiming (or even pointing) a weapon in the direction of the limo in such a way that would suggest an attempt on Kennedy was being made?
"If memory serves", right? Actually, you have it backwards. But so what? Years later Brennan said he saw the president's head explode. The point is, you either recognize that witness testimony is unreliable or you don't. Gorillas playing basketball and all that.
>>> Brennan died before his book was published. You're reliant on the ghost-writer being honest.
>>> Since you seem to be down with the notion that witness testimony is unreliable, can one now expect the 4 people including Jean Hill, 'saw'-shooters claims now fall into that 'unreliable' category?
Or are you just doing a little 'chest-pounding' ;)
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In Iacoletti's case, testimony is unreliable if it can't be interpreted as exonerating Oswald.
Testimony is unreliable, period.
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Are you channeling Euins now? How do you know he's describing anything that's the "same as Oswald's"?
>>> Euins channeled himself. Oswald's head is proof of the 2.5" similarity to the Euin description.
Euins didn't say anything about 2.5" -- that was Specter. But please even demonstrate that Oswald had a 2.5" "bald spot" on his head.
First you make an issue of your "witnesses" seeing a rifle at all (or what they thought was a rifle). When that wasn't unique enough, then you decide to make an "aimed at something" distinction. Nice special pleading.
>>> Not so fast: The 'aiming at something' is in reference to your claim that Hill, etc saw shooters.
So, are you saying that Norman, Jarman, and Williams aren't witnesses to a shooter unless they saw somebody aiming at something? How about everybody near 10th & Patton?
>>> Brennan died before his book was published. You're reliant on the ghost-writer being honest.
You're assuming (without evidence) that publication date = written date. Do you apply that to Priscilla Johnson's book as well?
>>> Since you seem to be down with the notion that witness testimony is unreliable, can one now expect the 4 people including Jean Hill, 'saw'-shooters claims now fall into that 'unreliable' category?
Yes.
Or are you just doing a little 'chest-pounding' ;)
Your dad can beat up my dad.
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Testimony is unreliable, period.
Except when it isn't*
*© John Iacoletti
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Euins didn't say anything about 2.5" -- that was Specter. But please even demonstrate that Oswald had a 2.5" "bald spot" on his head.
>>> Are you claiming that Euins had no input at all regarding the size of the so-called 'bald/white' spot?
So, are you saying that Norman, Jarman, and Williams aren't witnesses to a shooter unless they saw somebody aiming at something? How about everybody near 10th & Patton?
>>> Did those three gentlemen claim to have seen the shooter? Yours did, according to your earlier claim (that included Jean Hill). Do explain where that claim of yours is an any way comparable to an actual shooter brandishing an actual weapon, and emptying it, to boot.
You're assuming (without evidence) that publication date = written date. Do you apply that to Priscilla Johnson's book as well?
>>> There you go again: Telling others what they are assuming. Get over yourself, Lord Haughty Jr.
>>> My reference to Brennan's death prior to publication is clearly suggestive of the opportunity afforded by said death for a less than scrupulous ghost writer to 'pump up the volume' so-to-speak, despite Brennan having signed off (IIRC) on the manuscript prior to his demise.
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Except when it isn't*
*© John Iacoletti
That's the LN-er credo.
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>>> Are you claiming that Euins had no input at all regarding the size of the so-called 'bald/white' spot?
I thought my response was quite clear.
Please even demonstrate that Oswald had a 2.5" "bald spot" on his head.
>>> Did those three gentlemen claim to have seen the shooter? Yours did, according to your earlier claim (that included Jean Hill). Do explain where that claim of yours is an any way comparable to an actual shooter brandishing an actual weapon, and emptying it, to boot.
True to form, you're moving the goalposts. But I'll remind you of your original false claim about the knoll witnesses:
43 opinions = 0 shooters seen
You're assuming (without evidence) that publication date = written date. Do you apply that to Priscilla Johnson's book as well?
>>> There you go again: Telling others what they are assuming. Get over yourself, Lord Haughty Jr.
>>> My reference to Brennan's death prior to publication is clearly suggestive of the opportunity afforded by said death for a less than scrupulous ghost writer to 'pump up the volume' so-to-speak, despite Brennan having signed off (IIRC) on the manuscript prior to his demise.
You're all about what's "suggestive" to you. Do you have any evidence that Brennan's manuscript was altered after his death?
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Please even demonstrate that Oswald had a 2.5" "bald spot" on his head.
>>> Euins described what he saw.. in his own way.
True to form, you're moving the goalposts. But I'll remind you of your original false claim about the knoll witnesses:
>>> What happened to your 'witnesses-are-unreliable' stance? Did anyone in your Gang of 4 actually see their 'shooters' aim at something/anything and watch them pull the trigger? That seems to be one of your requirements of SN witnesses.
You're all about what's "suggestive" to you. Do you have any evidence that Brennan's manuscript was altered after his death?
>>> Do you have any evidence that the manuscript Brennan signed off on (if indeed he did) contained the description of the head shot seen in the published version of the book?
>>> Are you under the impression that I'm claiming the ghost writer actually went ahead and altered the manuscript?
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Please even demonstrate that Oswald had a 2.5" "bald spot" on his head.
>>> Euins described what he saw.. in his own way.
And you're twisting it to fit it to Oswald.. in your own way.
True to form, you're moving the goalposts. But I'll remind you of your original false claim about the knoll witnesses:
>>> What happened to your 'witnesses-are-unreliable' stance? Did anyone in your Gang of 4 actually see their 'shooters' aim at something/anything and watch them pull the trigger? That seems to be one of your requirements of SN witnesses.
You claimed there were zero knoll shooters seen. That's a false claim, regardless of how reliable anyone thinks witnesses are. And if your stance is that TSBD witnesses are reliable and knoll witnesses are not, then you're just being hypocritical.
>>> Are you under the impression that I'm claiming the ghost writer actually went ahead and altered the manuscript?
You're "suggesting" that he could have in order to overlook Brennan's inconsistencies as to what he witnessed. Just like you "suggested" that Frazier could have lied about the bag to cover his ass.
But Brennan's accounts were inconsistent between Nov 22 and a few days later. And inconsistent again with his WC testimony. Are you going to "suggest" the ghost writer was responsible for that too? Any excuse to salvage the only person to ever (sort of) place Oswald in that window, right?
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And you're twisting it to fit it to Oswald.. in your own way.
>>> LOL. Twisting what? Oswald's hair? Sorry... try as you might, you can't pin Oswald's balding head on me. Nor can you tag me or anyone else with Euins' choice of words in describing what he saw on the head of AnyBodyButOswald in that window.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MMWXdNL/oswald-bald-spot.png)
Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building?
Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald spot.
(...)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man who was there?
Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir: and I could see the spot on his head.
(...)
Mr. SPECTER. How far back did the bald spot on his head go?
Mr. EUINS. I would say about right along in here.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2 1/2 inches above where you hairline is. Is that about what you are saying?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right along in here.
You claimed there were zero knoll shooters seen. That's a false claim, regardless of how reliable anyone thinks witnesses are. And if your stance is that TSBD witnesses are reliable and knoll witnesses are not, then you're just being hypocritical.
>>> I still haven't seen you post any details about what your 'shooter' witnesses saw. On the other hand, it's well-known that a shooter was seen in the sn window.
You're "suggesting" that he 'could have in order to overlook Brennan's inconsistencies as to what he witnessed. Just like you "suggested" that Frazier could have lied about the bag to cover his ass.
>>> There you go again; assuming what I meant: Where did I say that 'he could have in order to overlook Brennan's inconsistencies'?
Frazier? Suggested, not 'suggested'... no matter what your fantasies require.
But Brennan's accounts were inconsistent between Nov 22 and a few days later. And inconsistent again with his WC testimony. Are you going to "suggest" the ghost writer was responsible for that too? Any excuse to salvage the only person to ever (sort of) place Oswald in that window, right?
>>> Any excuse (in an attempt) to trash everything the only guy to place Oswald in the window ever said, right? Any excuse to protect Oswald, right? And show us these 'inconsistent between Nov 22 and a few days later' inconsistencies of yours.
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And you're twisting it to fit it to Oswald.. in your own way.
>>> LOL. Twisting what? Oswald's hair? Sorry... try as you might, you can't pin Oswald's balding head on me. Nor can you tag me or anyone else with Euins' choice of words in describing what he saw on the head of AnyBodyButOswald in that window.
No, but you're the one trying to make Euins' "bald spot" fit Oswald's receding hairline.
>>> I still haven't seen you post any details about what your 'shooter' witnesses saw. On the other hand, it's well-known that a shooter was seen in the sn window.
Is this your way of admitting that you were wrong about "zero shooters seen"?
>>> There you go again; assuming what I meant: Where did I say that 'he could have in order to overlook Brennan's inconsistencies'?
Stop being coy and spit it out. What's your point about the co-author?
>>> Any excuse (in an attempt) to trash everything the only guy to place Oswald in the window ever said, right? Any excuse to protect Oswald, right? And show us these 'inconsistent between Nov 22 and a few days later' inconsistencies of yours.
Seriously Chapman?
(http://iacoletti.org/jfk/failedtoidentify.jpg)
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If Jack Ruby had failed to kill Oswald [the cops bungled it at the Texas Theater] Lee would have 'committed suicide' a la Jeffery Epstein.
Any way it swung...Oswald would not have ever gone to trial.
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If Jack Ruby had failed to kill Oswald [the cops bungled it at the Texas Theater] Lee would have 'committed suicide' a la Jeffery Epstein.
Any way it swung...Oswald would not have ever gone to trial.
So long as you are making things up why wouldn't "suicide" have been the second option instead of recruiting Ruby to murder Oswald and then hope he remained silent for the rest of his life.
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So long as you are making things up why wouldn't "suicide" have been the second option instead of recruiting Ruby to murder Oswald and then hope he remained silent for the rest of his life.
Yes, and plant a note confessing to the crimes. Et cetera, et cetera.
As you've noted before (to the anger of the "Oswald was framed!" crowd), there's a long list of things the (alleged) conspirators could have done to cement his guilt. The fact that they didn't tells us something; something the Oswald defenders simply don't want to think about.
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So long as you are making things up why wouldn't "suicide" have been the second option instead of recruiting Ruby to murder Oswald and then hope he remained silent for the rest of his life.
So, would there be any reason that Oswald would not remain silent after Ruby took care of him? Why not think that one over? Oh..that's right--you can't ::)
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Yes, and plant a note confessing to the crimes. Et cetera, et cetera.
As you've noted before (to the anger of the "Oswald was framed!" crowd), there's a long list of things the (alleged) conspirators could have done to cement his guilt. The fact that they didn't tells us something; something the Oswald defenders simply don't want to think about.
"I think 'conspirators' would have done X, therefore Oswald did it" is not a particularly compelling argument.
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If Jack Ruby had failed to kill Oswald [the cops bungled it at the Texas Theater] Lee would have 'committed suicide' a la Jeffery Epstein.
Any way it swung...Oswald would not have ever gone to trial.
Any chance you could list the evidence showing that the "cops" were supposed to kill Oswald at the theater?
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Any chance you could list the evidence showing that the "cops" were supposed to kill Oswald at the theater?
Is that avatar your recent picture?
>> evidence the cops were supposed to kill Oswald at the theater? << You didn't know that? Evidence can only be provided by the corroboration of a witness. We'll need a seance for that. It is obvious to anyone with even a moderate amount of wit.. Supposedly [according to the official story] a team of about 15 units armed with shotguns converged out of the blue upon the theater to apprehend a suspect who sneaked in after allegedly shooting a policeman dead. Supposedly, this cop killer pulls this weapon on cops acting upon the scrutiny of some finger pointer.
Unofficially...instead of gunning down the suspect in self defense one cop puts his hand around the suspects waist and proceeds to dance with him. If someone wants to believe this ...there is some oceanfront property in Nebraska I want to sell them. Face it...someone blew their assignment.
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He didn't pull a gun on anybody, and nobody who was there even said that he did. If he had pulled a gun, he would have been shot dead.
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A closer look at Steve's avatar reveals Joe Biden under that clown paint
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Is that avatar your recent picture?
>> evidence the cops were supposed to kill Oswald at the theater? << You didn't know that? Evidence can only be provided by the corroboration of a witness. We'll need a seance for that. It is obvious to anyone with even a moderate amount of wit.. Supposedly [according to the official story] a team of about 15 units armed with shotguns converged out of the blue upon the theater to apprehend a suspect who sneaked in after allegedly shooting a policeman dead. Supposedly, this cop killer pulls this weapon on cops acting upon the scrutiny of some finger pointer.
Unofficially...instead of gunning down the suspect in self defense one cop puts his hand around the suspects waist and proceeds to dance with him. If someone wants to believe this ...there is some oceanfront property in Nebraska I want to sell them. Face it...someone blew their assignment.
So , in other words you got nothing. Thanks for the Cakebread Lite spin.
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He didn't pull a gun on anybody, and nobody who was there even said that he did. If he had pulled a gun, he would have been shot dead.
Yeah he was just scratching his balls and McDonald was trying to grope the little prick.
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The real killers got away....
1:24 87 Was that 4340 West Davis?
Dispatcher Yes.
87 10-4.
Dispatcher Somebody pulled in there and bought some gas; driving a white Pontiac '61 or '62 station wagon with the prefix P(ecos) E(llis). He had a rifle laying on the seat.
87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson) 10-4.
Dispatcher Have a citizen following this car at this time, unknown direction.
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Yeah he was just scratching his balls and McDonald was trying to grope the little prick.
Another one of Chapman's fine contributions to the discussion.
"Gee Bill, how can every post of yours be better than the next one?" -- Colin Crow
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Another one of Chapman's fine contributions to the discussion."Gee Bill, how can every post of yours be better than the next one?" -- Colin Crow
Mr Chapman has a condition I call M.Crary Syndrome [incurable]
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Another one of Chapman's fine contributions to the discussion.
"Gee Bill, how can every post of yours be better than the next one?" -- Colin Crow
;)
Scratching balls, groping... The hits just keep on comin'
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He didn't pull a gun on anybody, and nobody who was there even said that he did. If he had pulled a gun, he would have been shot dead.
I cordially invite Mr Logan, Mr Chapman or anyone else that wants to give it a crack...to come to Dallas and try pulling a gun on a group of cops and see what happens then---- (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
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I cordially invite Mr Logan, Mr Chapman or anyone else that wants to give it a crack...to come to Dallas and try pulling a gun on a group of cops and see what happens then---- (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)
Don't be absurd, the scenario you are trying to present is not replicating the close struggle of what went down in the Texas Theater.
But to answer your question under the correct circumstances, Oswald's beaten up face is what happens.
(https://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2013/11/15/2abe2ab2-3eca-4c35-b716-48701d9dfff7/resize/620x465/985e77f98c103ee89753f95967c2c27f/LHO_slide_vert_crop.jpg)
Btw the Dallas cops had the perfect opportunity to kill Oswald but instead arrested him and let him blab to anybody who would listen, do you think the Dallas Cops were involved?
JohnM
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He didn't pull a gun on anybody, and nobody who was there even said that he did. If he had pulled a gun, he would have been shot dead.
If he had pulled a gun, he would have been shot dead.
>>> In 1963? How do you know this?
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Don't be absurd, the scenario you are trying to present is not replicating the close struggle of what went down in the Texas Theater.
But to answer your question under the correct circumstances, Oswald's beaten up face is what happens.
http://cbsnews3.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/r/2013/11/15/2abe2ab2-3eca-4c35-b716-48701d9dfff7/resize/620x465/985e77f98c103ee89753f95967c2c27f/LHO_slide_vert_crop.jpg
Btw the Dallas cops had the perfect opportunity to kill Oswald but instead arrested him and let him blab to anybody who would listen, do you think the Dallas Cops were involved?
JohnM
These dimwits can't connect the dots
And Oswald's lucky he wasn't black
How to know you're in Texas
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But to answer your question under the correct circumstances, Oswald's beaten up face is what happens.
That’s what happens when you look funny to a shoe salesman.
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(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/mcdonaldstory1.gif)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/mcdonaldstory2.gif)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/mcdonaldstory.gif)
(https://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/mcdonaldsface.jpg)
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LHO is arrested @ approximately 1:55pm.
He is searched @ 4:05pm and five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells are found in his left front pocket.
So apparently LHO wasn't searched for the first 2hrs. 10min. he was in custody?
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/13/1372-001.gif
-snip-
"At approximately 1:55pm Friday, November 22, 1963, I was in the vicinity
of the Texas Theater in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, looking for the suspect
in the slaying of officer J.D. Tippit."
-snip-
"I joined the other officers in attempting to complete the arrest"
-snip-
"succeeded in subduing the suspect, and while the other officers held the suspect, Officer Ray Hawkins and I handcuffed the suspect."
-snip-
---------------------------
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1538-004.gif
-snip-
"At 4:05pm Sims, Boyd, and Det. M.C. Hall took Oswald down to the holdover in the jail
office for a show-up. Down in the hold over, Boyd searched Oswald and found
five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells in his left front pocket. Sims
found a bus transfer slip in Oswald's shirt pocket."
-snip
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I cordially invite Mr Logan, Mr Chapman or anyone else that wants to give it a crack...to come to Dallas and try pulling a gun on a group of cops and see what happens then----
Don't be absurd, the scenario you are trying to present is not replicating the close struggle of what went down in the Texas Theater.
What is absurd is your overuse of the word. Unless you were in the theater at that time..what would you really know? So the rest is just speculation.
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Note that McDonald’s report says nothing about Oswald “pulling a gun” or trying to shoot anybody. That’s all LNer fiction.
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Note that McDonald’s report says nothing about Oswald “pulling a gun” or trying to shoot anybody. That’s all LNer fiction.
::)
You wouldn't be attempting to sanitize the differing optics between pulling a gun, bringing out a gun, or taking out a gun, now would you, SemanticsSuckJohnny?
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::)
You wouldn't be attempting to sanitize the differing optics between pulling a gun, bringing out a gun, or taking out a gun, now would you, SemanticsSuckJohnny?
Wrong again Chappy. None of those apply.
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Oswald was killed to shut him up. It’s an old Sicilian practice whereby they set someone up to take the fall for a murder and then kill him to stop the information flow. Ruby was tasked to kill Oswald by the mob which owned his strip club.
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Wrong again Chappy. None of those apply.
Oswald applied himself.
It's what boys do.
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Oswald was killed to shut him up. It’s an old Sicilian practice whereby they set someone up to take the fall for a murder and then kill him to stop the information flow. Ruby was tasked to kill Oswald by the mob which owned his strip club.
If they were worried about what he would reveal then why did they allow this? At any moment he could reveal who set him up. But he didn't. Why not?
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/television-news-conference-captures-guards-and-secret-service-agents-picture-id576877792?s=612x612)
Oswald met with the press, he was able to yell to them as he was being escorted at the police station, he talked to his wife, his mother, his brother and others.
If they needed to keep him silent then why allow all of that? It makes no sense to me.
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Oswald applied himself.
It's what boys do.
This is the Chapman version of epistemology. Just declare the thing you want to believe as a fact, and it becomes a fact.
Probably.
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He may have been reluctant to say anything to anyone knowing who was behind it all.
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If they were worried about what he would reveal then why did they allow this?
If they needed to keep him silent then why allow all of that? It makes no sense to me.
Whoever said Oswald knew anything? To necessarily shut him up and so there would be no trial are synonymous Thumb1:
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In order for Oswald to say “I’m just a patsy” tells me he knew what was going on. He had been seen in the company of Carlos Marcello so I suspect he knew about what was going on.
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Whoever said Oswald knew anything? To necessarily shut him up and so there would be no trial are synonymous Thumb1:
So they killed Oswald because he knew nothing and could implicate no one else. He was just a Mr. Magoo character blundering into the frameup at every step by sheer bad luck. And then they had Ruby on their hands to keep quiet including his trial. That's rich. Keep thinking them up! Remember nothing has to make any sense or be supported by any evidence to be entertainment.
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In order for Oswald to say “I’m just a patsy” tells me he knew what was going on.
Well, yeah. He realized he was getting set up. He had been seen in the company of Carlos Marcello so I suspect he knew about what was going on.
At the risk of sounding like Mr Smith..where is the evidence there?
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In order for Oswald to say “I’m just a patsy” tells me he knew what was going on. He had been seen in the company of Carlos Marcello so I suspect he knew about what was going on.
Another enduring CTer myth! In full context, Oswald said "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy!" He is making a rush to judgment claim that he has been arrested due to his political affiliations. Not because he is claiming to know anything about a conspiracy. And, of course, his claim about the Soviet Union is complete bunk because none of the arresting officers even knew his name at the time of arrest much less that he had once "lived in the Soviet Union." Just another of Oswald's lies to make himself appear the aggrieved victim.
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Remember nothing has to make any sense or be supported by any evidence to be entertainment.
Pot, kettle. You make all kinds of claims that are not supported by any evidence.
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What is absurd is your overuse of the word. Unless you were in the theater at that time..what would you really know? So the rest is just speculation.
Is this still an open invitation?
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Another enduring CTer myth! In full context, Oswald said "They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy!" He is making a rush to judgment claim that he has been arrested due to his political affiliations. Not because he is claiming to know anything about a conspiracy. And, of course, his claim about the Soviet Union is complete bunk because none of the arresting officers even knew his name at the time of arrest much less that he had once "lived in the Soviet Union." Just another of Oswald's lies to make himself appear the aggrieved victim.
You have the story all assbackwards [or is it backasswards?] By the time Oswald made that statement..he had already been asked about his time in the Soviet Union by his interrogators.
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Oswald was killed to keep him from talking. The mob frames Oswald for the assassination, uses his gun, gets him a job in the DSBD, then they kill him. Case closed. Oswald was seen in the company of Carlos Marcello at least two times and the word on the street in New Orleans was that "friends" had JFK assassinated.
Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante conspired to kill JFK. There have been several instances where Marcello admitted having JFK killed. One time was in a prison cell where Marcello told his cell mate, and the FBI had the cell bugged or the cellmate was working for the FBI. There are one or two other times where Marcello made mention of them hitting JFK. Trafficante told his lawyer, Frank Ragano, on his deathbed that they did kill JFK.
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Oswald was killed to keep him from talking. The mob frames Oswald for the assassination, uses his gun, gets him a job in the DSBD, then they kill him. Case closed. Oswald was seen in the company of Carlos Marcello at least two times and the word on the street in New Orleans was that "friends" had JFK assassinated.
Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante conspired to kill JFK. There have been several instances where Marcello admitted having JFK killed. One time was in a prison cell where Marcello told his cell mate, and the FBI had the cell bugged or the cellmate was working for the FBI. There are one or two other times where Marcello made mention of them hitting JFK. Trafficante told his lawyer, Frank Ragano, on his deathbed that they did kill JFK.
WOW!!! I wish you'd joined the forum years ago...you would have saved us all years n years of wasted time and work. I guess we can all go home now you're cleared that up. Thank's again, Mike.
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Dennis would you like more evidence? I have plenty but please be specific.
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Oswald was killed to keep him from talking. The mob frames Oswald for the assassination, uses his gun, gets him a job in the DSBD, then they kill him. Case closed. Oswald was seen in the company of Carlos Marcello at least two times and the word on the street in New Orleans was that "friends" had JFK assassinated.
Carlos Marcello and Santo Trafficante conspired to kill JFK. There have been several instances where Marcello admitted having JFK killed. One time was in a prison cell where Marcello told his cell mate, and the FBI had the cell bugged or the cellmate was working for the FBI. There are one or two other times where Marcello made mention of them hitting JFK. Trafficante told his lawyer, Frank Ragano, on his deathbed that they did kill JFK.
MOB? [military establishment- organized crime- big business interests. OK
Uses Oswald's gun? Hardly ::).... Oswald and Marcello hung out together? Yeah uh where did that come from again? [second request]
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A man by the name of Gianni Russo, author of “Hollywood Godfather”, was a runner for Frank Costello, head of New York mob. Frank sent Russo to New Orleans to deliver a message to Carlos Marcello. As he entered restaurant where he was to meet Marcello, he spot’s “Oswald or his twin brother” coming out of the men’s room, and then left the restaurant. This is while Marcello was in the restaurant. By the way, the book is very interesting book to read.
Another sighting
Author Matthew Randazzo V co-authored the book “Mr New Orleans” with Kent “Frenchy” Brouillette. The book is about Brouillette. The book is reviewed by George de Stefano and he states: “Although Frenchy is hardly the first to argue that Lee Harvey Oswald was only one participant in a Mafia-backed conspiracy, he is the first to claim to have witnessed contacts between Oswald and Mafia chief Carlos Marcello. He recalls having seen Oswald in the company of Marcello “a few times” in 1963, including in Marcello’s office. “My understanding was that Oswald had become a runner of some sort for Carlos”.
https://www.nyjournalofbooks.com/book-review/mr-new-orleans
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A man by the name of Gianni Russo, author of “Hollywood Godfather”, was a runner for Frank Costello, head of New York mob. Frank sent Russo to New Orleans to deliver a message to Carlos Marcello. As he entered restaurant where he was to meet Marcello, he spot’s “Oswald or his twin brother” coming out of the men’s room, and then left the restaurant. This is while Marcello was in the restaurant. By the way, the book is very interesting book to read.
Another sighting
Author Matthew Randazzo V co-authored the book “Mr New Orleans” with Kent “Frenchy” Brouillette. The book is about Brouillette. The book is reviewed by George de Stefano and he states: “Although Frenchy is hardly the first to argue that Lee Harvey Oswald was only one participant in a Mafia-backed conspiracy, he is the first to claim to have witnessed contacts between Oswald and Mafia chief Carlos Marcello. He recalls having seen Oswald in the company of Marcello “a few times” in 1963, including in Marcello’s office. “My understanding was that Oswald had become a runner of some sort for Carlos”.
https://www.nyjournalofbooks.com/book-review/mr-new-orleans
I know this may be difficult to believe but sometimes these 'mob guys' actually tell fibs!! Seriously Mike, just because mafia guys boast about having Kennedy 'hit' doesn't make it true. The mob wants people to believe the mafia is all powerfull, untouchable and able to pull off an assassination this big. Truth is most of these guys are intellectually retarded, many refuse to obey orders and some are homicidal maniacs..these creeps would have trouble organising a kids birthday party! Hate to break it to you buddy but..the GODFATHER film wasn't true.
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I know they are not the most truthful people on the planet and some are not known to be very bright but the folks at the top are very bright individuals. I did a search of the forum and there is no mention of Marcello, try reading the book “Mafia Kingfish” by John H. Davis and you will get an education. Or “Mob Lawyer” by Frank Ragano and Selwyn Raab for more insight. Or Lamar Waldron’s “The Hidden History of the JFK Assassination. There is plenty of evidence pointing to Marcello and Trafficante in those books.
And no, the “Godfather” wasn’t true but it was based on some true events. “Goodfellows” and “Casino” are true.
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You have the story all assbackwards [or is it backasswards?] By the time Oswald made that statement..he had already been asked about his time in the Soviet Union by his interrogators.
What does that have to do with why they identified him as a suspect? Oswald is claiming that he was "taken in" because he "lived in the Soviet Union." Do you believe the DPD knew at the time of his arrest that he had lived in the Soviet Union? And that is why he was arrested? Regardless, Oswald's "patsy" statement is not conveying any knowledge of a conspiracy as suggested. Instead, he is contending the authorities have arrested him because of his political background. It would be like a suspect claiming he was arrested because he is black. It's a claim of innocence, but not that he has any direct knowledge of a conspiracy.
"They've taken me in because of the fact that I lived in the Soviet Union. I'm just a patsy!"
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From the article----
... he is the first to claim to have witnessed contacts between Oswald and Mafia chief Carlos Marcello.
The first and only [AFAIK] So don't pass the salt. Also... Frenchy further maintains that his attorney Dean Andrews, who also represented Carlos Marcello and Lee Harvey Oswald, told him that Oswald indeed was a patsy for the crime.
As far as I know Andrews never represented Marcello or Oswald really. Andrews testified that he thought Oswald owed him $25 but never stated why.
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What does that have to do with why they identified him as a suspect?
Why not stop chasing your tail?
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I know nothing about Dean Andrews other than John Candy played him in the movie JFK. John's portrayal of Dean was very entertaining, I wonder if Dean was like that in real life....... lot's of characters in New Orleans.
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He wasn't "killed". He was shot and died from his injuries.
Sounds silly I know but if he were to be selected to be killed, he would've been shot in the head, when he left the TSBD or in prison. Not a clumsy shot to the stomach with a small revolver in an area with a 90% survival rate, almost guaranteeing that he would talk.
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He was killed on order of Carlos Marcello. I think someone else was supposed to take out Oswald but for some reason it didn't happen. Then Ruby was directed to kill Oswald while he was in police custody. Torso shot was the only "safe" shot, head shot could have missed and killed a cop, not good.
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He was killed on order of Carlos Marcello. I think someone else was supposed to take out Oswald but for some reason it didn't happen. Then Ruby was directed to kill Oswald while he was in police custody. Torso shot was the only "safe" shot, head shot could have missed and killed a cop, not good.
Mike, you made that claim before but you offered not one scrap of proof to back it up..apart from Carlos Marcello said so, therefore, it must be true. Also, the point Ted is making is that a gutshot with a small revolver is not a reliable assassination technic...Oswald may well have survived at the very least long enough to have talked. Why not a more powerful weapon, was the mob short of decent guns? Why didn't Ruby just hold the weapon under Oswald's chin, certain death and no chance of hitting an officer? Your scenario just doesn't make sense, especially when combined with your other pet theory ie the best hitman/men the mafia could buy actually botched the job and if it wasn't for Hickey falling over and accidentally discharging his weapon Kennedy would have survived!
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He was killed on order of Carlos Marcello. I think someone else was supposed to take out Oswald but for some reason it didn't happen. Then Ruby was directed to kill Oswald while he was in police custody. Torso shot was the only "safe" shot, head shot could have missed and killed a cop, not good.
Or just wait until he got to prison. "They" would have had months before any trial started. "They" also had no idea if he had already talked after nearly 48 hours in custody.
Mike
A bullet to the stomach, giving Oswald a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life makes no sense.
Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds. From the 80s granted but still a good guide.
"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/
Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly (as below) the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.
(https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2014/12/12/18/29-photo-ap.jpg?w968h681)
The first mob hit in history with a single shot to the stomach using a .38 where the assassin brought his dog with him to the hit and left it in the car outside.
Mafia hit men do not shoot people in the stomach once with a handgun. He could've easily got to Oswald over the course of the weekend for a headshot.
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Or just wait until he got to prison. "They" would have had months before any trial started. "They" also had no idea if he had already talked after nearly 48 hours in custody.
Mike
A bullet to the stomach, giving Oswald a 90% chance of survival (up to 98% if you can get quickly to a hospital as is the case here) and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life makes no sense.
Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds. From the 80s granted but still a good guide.
"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/
Ruby got either very lucky or very unlucky depending on how you see it. The chances of him killing Oswald with that shot were tiny. If Jim Leavelle hadn't have pulled Oswald sideways slightly (as below) the bullet wouldn't have hit those organs and he could have easily survived. It was a total fluke that he died.
(https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2014/12/12/18/29-photo-ap.jpg?w968h681)
The first mob hit in history with a single shot to the stomach using a .38 where the assassin brought his dog with him to the hit and left it in the car outside.
Mafia hit men do not shoot people in the stomach once with a handgun. He could've easily got to Oswald over the course of the weekend for a headshot.
How can you be sure Ruby was aiming for Oswald's stomach?
Looking at the picture, it seems to me Oswald was turning away, as a reaction to Ruby jumping in front of him
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Denis, proof about what? That Marcello ordered Ruby to kill Oswald? I don’t have any evidence that Marcello told Ruby to kill Oswald. Here’s what I do have; the mob owned the club Ruby ran, the Dallas mob was under Marcello, Ruby owed Marcello big time and Marcello called in the debt. No you are never going to get “so n so said”, you just have to put the pieces together that makes logical sense.
Who knows what was going through Ruby’s mind at the time. He was told to take out Oswald and we will never know what they knew back then about killing someone. Who knows why Ruby didn’t use a rocket launcher to kill Oswald. I have a 38 in my nightstand and I believe it will kill an intruder, maybe Ruby thought the same thing??
There is no way Ruby could have gotten close enough to hold the gun under Oswald’s’ chin with all the police around.
Unfortunately the hit man had to use the carcano rifle so the blame could be put on Oswald. The other shooters were only there in case the main guy, 6th floor of the TSBD, didn’t kill JFK. The order was JFK didn’t survive. Sure an American sniper rifle would have done the job nicely but there would have been a huge ballistics problem.
That’s the best definition of “dumb luck”, Hickey falling over and accidently squeezing off a round. But who knows what might have happened if that didn’t happen. The shooters saw a head shot, they didn’t know who did it, they just knew the job was done and to get the hell out of there.
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How can you be sure Ruby was aiming for Oswald's stomach?
Looking at the picture, it seems to me Oswald was turning away, as a reaction to Ruby jumping in front of him
He was turning away yeah and Leavelle pulled him too as per the pics and video. It was a fluke he killed him. A total fluke. One in a million.
Mob hits of that importance don't rely on luck.
William McKinley for example, similar but shot twice and took 9 days to die - of gangrene. James Garfield similarly took 11 weeks to die!
Oswald may have been the only person in the history of assassinations who has died almost instantly from a single abdominal gunshot wound. It just doesn't happen. Ruby would have statistically had a better chance of killing him instantly by punching him in the temple.
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I don’t think it was a fluke, maybe a 50/50 chance of killing him with a gut shot.
Oswald knew Ruby so he knew why he was there. He was turning away from Ruby in an act of self protection.. They were seen together on at least two occasions, one time was in Ruby’s strip club. One of the strippers said she saw them in the club together.
Ruby was not an experienced hit man and I think he was only used because he could get into the police department because of his contacts in the police department. The policemen frequented his club.
Look, both of them were under the thumb of Marcello. Marcello could tell them to do anything he wanted; they knew if they didn’t do what he said, they were dead, simple as that.
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After Oswald was shot, an unknown policeman administered CPR, which is the worst thing you can do for an abdominal gunshot if you want the person to survive it.
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After Oswald was shot, an unknown policeman administered CPR, which is the worst thing you can do for an abdominal gunshot if you want the person to survive it.
If I had been that 'unknown policeman', I would have administered CPR where the bullet entered, just to make sure it stayed put. So there.
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... I would have administered CPR where the bullet entered, just to make sure it stayed put.
I believe they did just that.
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It was a fluke he killed him. A total fluke. One in a million.
Yeah... another coincidence--they never ever stop.
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Yeah... another coincidence--they never ever stop.
No coincidence. This is scientific fact.
I don’t think it was a fluke, maybe a 50/50 chance of killing him with a gut shot.
Based on what exactly?
90% of people survive abdominal gunshot wounds. Why are Oswalds chances only at 50% as opposed to every other human in history?
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"After Oswald was shot, an unknown policeman administered CPR, which is the worst thing you can do for an abdominal gunshot if you want the person to survive it."
Maybe that brought it down to 50-50, who knows what Ruby was thinking and if he knew that fact back in 1963 maybe he would have gone for a head shot, we don't know.
Something for your viewing pleasure, it's essentially a shortened version of "JFK - The Smoking Gun" and it's free on youtube
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No coincidence. This is scientific fact.
I didn't know we had a scientist in our membership (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/welcome.gif)
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I can't take credit for the CPR statement, someone else mentioned it previously.
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I can't take credit for the CPR statement, someone else mentioned it previously.
I wouldn't take credit for it either if I was you. This actually backs up Ted's argument that Oswald would have probably survived the gunshot if not for the CPR. I've already asked once; Why didn't the Mafia supply Ruby with a more powerful gun?
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Ruby was probably directed to shoot LHO in the heart. But I am thinking someone else was supposed to take out LHO earlier probably something to do with Tippit, and Ruby was Marcello's last resort.
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Ruby was probably directed to shoot LHO in the heart.
Ruby was going for a heart shot [if he couldn't get him between the eyes] I think Oswald glimpsed the pistol and flinched quickly.
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Ruby was going for a heart shot [if he couldn't get him between the eyes] I think Oswald glimpsed the pistol and flinched quickly.
Why didnt Ruby shoot him in the head on Friday night at Oswalds "press conference"? Or the multiple times he was walked from the cell to the interrogation room. Easily done.
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Ruby was probably directed to shoot LHO in the heart. But I am thinking someone else was supposed to take out LHO earlier probably something to do with Tippit, and Ruby was Marcello's last resort.
Mike, you're completely missing the point. Had the Mafia instructed Ruby to assassinate Oswald, as you insist, then they would have furnished him with a more appropriate weapon, a handgun that was powerful enough to guarantee Oswald's death no matter where he was shot in the torso.
I'm sure you're right in that had there of been a conspiracy Oswald would indeed have been 'taking out' by "someone else" but that would have been long before Tippit. Oswald would never have made it out of the TSBD alive! A corrupt Dallas police officer would have been already stationed inside the TSBD ready to "take out" Oswald immediately after the assassination. No doubt the officer would have been filled with remorse and tears because he hadn't been quite quick enough, probably have been presented with a medal anyway and within a few months gunned down in the 'line of duty'. WOW!! I'd never realised how much fun it is, dreaming up ingenious imaginary scenarios...I just might convert to CT! LOL
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Mike, you're completely missing the point. Had the Mafia instructed Ruby to assassinate Oswald, as you insist, then they would have furnished him with a more appropriate weapon, a handgun that was powerful enough to guarantee Oswald's death no matter where he was shot in the torso.
I'm sure you're right in that had there of been a conspiracy Oswald would indeed have been 'taking out' by "someone else" but that would have been long before Tippit. Oswald would never have made it out of the TSBD alive! A corrupt Dallas police officer would have been already stationed inside the TSBD ready to "take out" Oswald immediately after the assassination. No doubt the officer would have been filled with remorse and tears because he hadn't been quite quick enough, probably have been presented with a medal anyway and within a few months gunned down in the 'line of duty'. WOW!! I'd never realised how much fun it is, dreaming up ingenious imaginary scenarios...I just might convert to CT! LOL
Always amused me how people believe that this conspiracy involving up to hundreds of people, that went back months and years, allowed the shooter, the man who could expose all of this, to run freely around Dallas for a couple of hours, on buses, in taxis, shooting cops, ducking into shoe stores and into cinemas.
I mean, if they wanted to kill him, why not in the TSBD. He took a couple of minutes to leave. Why not when he got out of the cab? Or before he got to Tippet.
As for the "Tippet was there to kill him" thing - same question from me. They send one single uniformed cop? Nah.
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Always amused me how people believe that this conspiracy involving up to hundreds of people, that went back months and years, allowed the shooter, the man who could expose all of this, to run freely around Dallas for a couple of hours, on buses, in taxis, shooting cops, ducking into shoe stores and into cinemas.
I mean, if they wanted to kill him, why not in the TSBD. He took a couple of minutes to leave. Why not when he got out of the cab? Or before he got to Tippet.
As for the "Tippet was there to kill him" thing - same question from me. They send one single uniformed cop? Nah.
Careful Ted, trying to programme solid logic has been known to have caused many a CTs head to explode. :D
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I don't know if it is known when Ruby was given the order to take out Ruby'
Let's try that one again.
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Denis, maybe if Ruby had a more sophisticated weapon it might throw suspicion on the whole thing, who knows what they were thinking. Why did Ruby say what he said about taking what information he had to his grave. That in itself says he knows a lot more than he saying. Ruby had no love for JFK, the mob hated RFK and JFK. Again, Ruby’s club was owned by Dallas mob which was under the thumb of Marcello.
I agree with you there should have been someone else to take out Oswald earlier, like your idea, a corrupt cop. I can’t explain why they didn’t.
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Ted, I am not claiming that hundreds of people knew of the plot, only the mob and some that were connected to the mob. Also there is no way that either Oswald or Ruby would expose Marcello, that would mean certain death. But why someone didn’t take out Oswald in the TSBD, I don’t know. Maybe because at that point in time no one knew Oswald did it or could have known. Maybe they wanted the rifle to get discovered which would point to Oswald but that would take some time. Certainly no one had any evidence of who did it at that until they captured Oswald and that was for Tippit’s killed, not JFK.
What I do know is of all the instances where Marcello and Trafficante admit do doing it and why they did it.
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Denis, maybe if Ruby had a more sophisticated weapon it might throw suspicion on the whole thing, who knows what they were thinking. Why did Ruby say what he said about taking what information he had to his grave. That in itself says he knows a lot more than he saying. Ruby had no love for JFK, the mob hated RFK and JFK. Again, Ruby’s club was owned by Dallas mob which was under the thumb of Marcello.
I agree with you there should have been someone else to take out Oswald earlier, like your idea, a corrupt cop. I can’t explain why they didn’t.
Well, Mike, you certainly won't stand down on this, will you? I can only respect that. We'll just have to agree to differ on this. If you sincerely believe it keep pushing it. Good luck to you.
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Mike, you're completely missing the point. Had the Mafia instructed Ruby to assassinate Oswald, as you insist, then they would have furnished him with a more appropriate weapon,
How do you know what the Mafia would do?
WOW!! I'd never realised how much fun it is, dreaming up ingenious imaginary scenarios...I just might convert to CT! LOL
You mean like the giant “ingenious imaginary scenario“ called the Warren Commission Report?
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Always amused me how people believe that this conspiracy involving up to hundreds of people, that went back months and years, allowed the shooter, the man who could expose all of this, to run freely around Dallas for a couple of hours, on buses, in taxis, shooting cops, ducking into shoe stores and into cinemas.
Are you “Richard”’s sock puppet? You have the same strawman “vast conspiracy” that he always makes up!
I mean, if they wanted to kill him, why not in the TSBD. He took a couple of minutes to leave. Why not when he got out of the cab? Or before he got to Tippet.
Who’s Tippet?
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I agree with you there should have been someone else to take out Oswald earlier, like your idea, a corrupt cop. I can’t explain why they didn’t.
Perhaps a theatre full of people and “I am not resisting arrest”?
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Tippit was the cop Oswald supposedly killed after JFK was killed and before Oswald was captured in the theater.
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I came across an article on another JFK forum about Marcello, I think you all will find it interesting. It will give you a good understanding of Marcello. There are 5 or 6 other articles and so far I have only read 3 and 4.
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-story-of-new-orleans-mafia-boss-carlos-marcello-1
http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-story-of-new-orleans-mafia-boss-carlos-marcello-2
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Tippit was the cop Oswald supposedly killed after JFK was killed and before Oswald was captured in the theater.
Yes, but who was Tippet?
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How do you know what the Mafia would do?
You mean like the giant “ingenious imaginary scenario“ called the Warren Commission Report?
Well, you see John, I do actually possess an uncanny ability...it's called common sense. Seriously, do you really believe if the Mafia were involved in such an important 'hit' they'd give the job to an amateur armed with an inadequate weapon?
Exactly which part of the WR are you referring to John? It is, after all, an extremely large document. All of it? Some of it? A small part of it? Please be specific and then, of course, prove it.
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Abdominal gunshot wounds. An urban trauma center's experience with 300 consecutive patients
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/
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Bill, very interesting. Maybe Ruby had seen too many movies. In the Army we were taught to aim at the upper torso to hit the heart or lungs. Maybe in the excitement of the moment, Ruby lost concentration.
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Post deleted: Personal Insults Reported To Admin.
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Perhaps a theatre full of people and “I am not resisting arrest”?
You must know the number of seats and the number of patrons & cops, in addition to the shoe-store salesman, handlers (sarcasm) and the funny-haha/funny-strange dude to be able to deem the TT as being 'full of people'
And Oswald sure had a novel way of demonstrating his non-resistance.
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Bill, very interesting. Maybe Ruby had seen too many movies. In the Army we were taught to aim at the upper torso to hit the heart or lungs. Maybe in the excitement of the moment, Ruby lost concentration.
He knew a number of cops and reporters and surely wouldn't want to hit anyone else.. Hard to hit the mark with a handgun anyway Better to 'reach out and touch someone'
What with the Tippit thing... and now this, 'Up close and personal' seems to have been trending..
;)
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He knew a number of cops and reporters and surely wouldn't want to hit anyone else.. Hard to hit the mark with a handgun anyway Better to 'reach out and touch someone'
Why didn't he do it here?
(https://www.dailyherald.com/storyimage/DA/20131122/news/711229999/EP/1/14/EP-711229999.jpg&updated=201311221034&MaxW=800&MaxH=800&noborder)
Or here?
(https://jfkinvestigators.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/baker-tl-3.jpg?w=746)
Countless examples of above. Anyone could've killed Oswald on Friday, easily. 3 or 4 bullets in the head. But "they" wait until hes been interrogated for 48 hours, possibly spilling the beans, and then decide to bungle a hit on Sunday? Makes no sense whatsoever.
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You must know the number of seats and the number of patrons & cops, in addition to the shoe-store salesman, handlers (sarcasm) and the funny-haha/funny-strange dude to be able to deem the TT as being 'full of people'
And Oswald sure had a novel way of demonstrating his non-resistance.
Post deleted: Personal Insults Reported To Admin.
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Well, you see John, I do actually possess an uncanny ability...it's called common sense. Seriously, do you really believe if the Mafia were involved in such an important 'hit' they'd give the job to an amateur armed with an inadequate weapon?
So you're just speculating then? I could just as easily speculate that Mafia hitmen were independent contractors who supplied their own weapons. Not a particularly useful exercise....
Exactly which part of the WR are you referring to John?
Specifically pages 18-25 ("Conclusions"). It's a fantasy narrative that is not supported by the evidence provided in the hearing and exhibits. It should be titled, "Conjectures and Speculations" (or "common sense" if you prefer).
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So you're just speculating then? I could just as easily speculate that Mafia hitmen were independent contractors who supplied their own weapons. Not a particularly useful exercise....
Specifically pages 18-25 ("Conclusions"). It's a fantasy narrative that is not supported by the evidence provided in the hearing and exhibits. It should be titled, "Conjectures and Speculations" (or "common sense" if you prefer).
There's nothing wrong with speculating John, that's exactly what discussion/debating forums are all about. It often seems that somewhere in the mind of John Iacoletti this forum is a courtroom and you're Oswald's defence lawyer. Now, I'm truly sorry to destroy your illusions but, the fact is, it isn't and you're not. You need to stop playing games with yourself John and come back down to Earth. Did you once have the ambition to be a lawyer? Is that the problem?
Well, you've done half of what I requested and specified what part of the WR you believe to be an “ingenious imaginary scenario“ thanks for that. Now when will you fulfil the second half of my request and prove it...unless you're just speculating of course.
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Jack Ruby was hardly an 'amateur' and by all means a snub nose .38 will kill you...it happens every day.
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Jack Ruby was hardly an 'amateur' and by all means a snub nose .38 will kill you...it happens every day.
Yep in the head or heart it does. Not in the stomach. Huge survival rate. Particularly with so much help around to get Oswald quickly to the hospital.
Its not a mob murder.
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Jack Ruby was hardly an 'amateur' and by all means a snub nose .38 will kill you...it happens every day.
So you're claiming Ruby was a professional hitman, then? Please, please elaborate, this is going to be fun! :D :D
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There's nothing wrong with speculating John, that's exactly what discussion/debating forums are all about.
I agree, Denis. The problem is when people take their speculations and state them as facts or call them evidence.
It often seems that somewhere in the mind of John Iacoletti this forum is a courtroom and you're Oswald's defence lawyer.
That's like accusing you of being Oswald's prosecution lawyer. An honest evaluation of the evidence (or lack thereof) does not require a courtroom or a trial. It just requires that people ditch their predetermined agenda and biased rhetoric in favor of the facts. And the ability to admit that "I don't know" is often the best answer.
Well, you've done half of what I requested and specified what part of the WR you believe to be an “ingenious imaginary scenario“ thanks for that. Now when will you fulfil the second half of my request and prove it...unless you're just speculating of course.
Prove that the WC conclusions are an imaginary scenario? Because they are inferences derived from assumptions and (often) misrepresentations, not a fact-based narrative.
Examples:
"4. The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor Connally were fired by Lee Harvey Oswald. This conclusion is based upon the following:
(a) The Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle from which the shots were fired was owned by and in the possession of Oswald."
Assumptions, not based on anything factual:
- That the MC rifle fired the bullet that killed Kennedy
- That the rifle was ever in the possession of Oswald prior to the assassination
"(b) Oswald carried this rifle into the Depository Building on the morning of November 22,1963."
Assumption based on nothing factual.
"(c) Oswald, at the time of the assassination, was present at the window from which t.he shots were fired."
Assumption solely based on Howard Brennan's later change of heart after failing to identify Oswald even after seeing his picture in the paper
"(d) Shortly after the assassination, the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle belonging to Oswald was found partially hidden between some cartons on the sixth floor and the improvised paper bag in which Oswald brought the rifle to the Depository was found close by the window from which the shots were fired."
Assumptions based on nothing factual:
- That the rifle was brought in in the CE 142 bag
- That the CE142 bag was brought in by Oswald
"(f) Oswald lied to the police after his arrest concerning important substantive matters."
Assumption based on a circular argument that Oswald committed the crime so he must have been lying
"(g) Oswald had attempted to kill Maj. Gen. Edwin A. Walker (Resigned, U.S. Army) on April 10,1963, thereby demonstrating his disposition to take human life."
Assumption based solely on hearsay from Marina.
You have it backwards. It's an imaginary scenario until it can actually be proven that it happened that way.
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Maybe Ruby's only opportunity was on Sunday. Oswald died so he didn't bungle it.
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Maybe Ruby's only opportunity was on Sunday. Oswald died so he didn't bungle it.
Ruby was there Friday. Could have shot him there easily.
As for the stomach shot, can you imagine the conversation?
Ruby "OK so Ill rush in and shoot him in the stomach"
Marcello/Hoover "But he'll likely survive that.. ah go on then risk it".
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What are your thoughts regarding this?
Fred
The evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, evil Deep State had to silence him!
LOL
-- MWT ;)
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Maybe Ruby's only opportunity was on Sunday. Oswald died so he didn't bungle it.
If his job was to prevent the possibility of Oswald exposing the conspiracy then he most certainly failed in stopping that. If Oswald had information to reveal he had numerous opportunities to do so.
As in this:
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3f/30/14/3f301498b50fd75fd86e64c9edee2e5e.jpg)
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If his job was to prevent the possibility of Oswald exposing the conspiracy then he most certainly failed in stopping that. If Oswald had information to reveal he had numerous opportunities to do so.
Agree. The earlier conjecture is going off the chart. With Oswald dead...there would be no trial and that is why he had to die as soon as possible. Merely a glance at that picture will show there was absolutely no opportunity then to approach the suspect with a gun.
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Steve said 'If Oswald had information to reveal he had numerous opportunities to do so.' The picture he posted refers to that, not to an opportunity to shoot Oswald.
Aside from that photograph, there's another one of Ruby in the hallway a few feet behind Oswald. If he had been instructed to kill Oswald, that would have been the ideal time to strike since he wouldn't have known if he would ever get another such (relatively-close) encounter.
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Steve said 'If Oswald had information to reveal he had numerous opportunities to do so.' The picture he posted refers to that, not to an opportunity to shoot Oswald.
Aside from that photograph, there's another one of Ruby in the hallway a few feet behind Oswald. If he had been instructed to kill Oswald, that would have been the ideal time to strike since he wouldn't have known if he would ever get another such (relatively-close) encounter.
Yep can't see "them" letting Oswald walk up to a mic on international TV in front of the world like that.
Its an easy kill. One cop on "their" books enters the TSBD shortly after the shots are fired and kills him. "He had a rifle so I dumped him". Easy.
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Yep can't see "them" letting Oswald walk up to a mic on international TV in front of the world like that.
Its an easy kill. One cop on "their" books enters the TSBD shortly after the shots are fired and kills him. "He had a rifle so I dumped him". Easy.
"Its an easy kill. One cop on "their" books enters the TSBD shortly after the shots are fired and kills him. "He had a rifle so I dumped him". Easy."
There was a rifle in the 2nd floor lunchroom?
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"Its an easy kill. One cop on "their" books enters the TSBD shortly after the shots are fired and kills him. "He had a rifle so I dumped him". Easy."
There was a rifle in the 2nd floor lunchroom?
"They" could've killed him 2 second after he fired the last shot.
"Routine security patrol through the building".
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Steve said 'If Oswald had information to reveal he had numerous opportunities to do so.' The picture he posted refers to that, not to an opportunity to shoot Oswald.
Aside from that photograph, there's another one of Ruby in the hallway a few feet behind Oswald. If he had been instructed to kill Oswald, that would have been the ideal time to strike since he wouldn't have known if he would ever get another such (relatively-close) encounter.
Get your eyes/brain fixed. What good is all your conjecture? Steve wrote--- If his [Ruby's] job was to prevent the possibility of Oswald exposing the conspiracy then he most certainly failed in stopping that.
So apparently Oswald had no conspiracy to reveal right? Oswald's murder was to prevent a lengthy trial thus exposing what might have really happened. Ruby was obviously successful in stopping this.
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Yep can't see "them" letting Oswald walk up to a mic on international TV in front of the world like that. Its an easy kill. One cop on "their" books enters the TSBD shortly after the shots are fired and kills him. "He had a rifle so I dumped him". Easy.
Obviously a Bill Chapman protege'.... not the way to go.
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OK..everybody but Ruby--- step back out of the way
(https://cdnph.upi.com/svc/sv/upi_com/6154480885263/archives/1/31bba451b4c281bed2ffefe87a5dc9f5/UPI-reporter-close-as-Ruby-shot-Oswald.jpg)
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BTW.. Who was the cop in the dark suit that had Oswald by the left arm? He got out of the way---
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/hnn-bucket/sites/default/files/154042-516812075bb02photo_high_8470.jpg)
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That was Homicide Detective LC Graves.
Fred
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I made this point on the old site but I'll repost it..just to..join in the debate.
Was Ruby the assassin.Was he ordered to silence Oswald. If he was why wasn't he in place at the appointed time.10.00 AM. At that time he was still in his dressing gown in his apartment etc etc..sure we all know the gist of it...wire stripper money..took his dog..etc etc.
The only alternative explanation for Ruby actually carring out the killing to silence Oswald is this. He is under threat of death..or even worse... to silence Oswald and that's why he was stalking Oswald..but overnight he decides he's not going to do it..no matter what the mob do to him he's not going to kill Oswald. And that's why he is not at the Police station on time to kill Oswald.
But after wiring his stripper the money he goes into the Police headquarters and realises Oswald still hasn't been moved...and it is then, at that moment,he thinks that if he doesn't carry out the mob's orders..he will be killed..and probably in a very cruesome way. Fear of the mob takes over..he then guns down Oswald. That is really the only other alternative explanation for Ruby's actions.
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I made this point on the old site but I'll repost it..just to..join in the debate.
Was Ruby the assassin.Was he ordered to silence Oswald. If he was why wasn't he in place at the appointed time.10.00 AM. At that time he was still in his dressing gown in his apartment etc etc..sure we all know the gist of it...wire stripper money..took his dog..etc etc.
The only alternative explanation for Ruby actually carring out the killing to silence Oswald is this. He is under threat of death..or even worse... to silence Oswald and that's why he was stalking Oswald..but overnight he decides he's not going to do it..no matter what the mob do to him he's not going to kill Oswald. And that's why he is not at the Police station on time to kill Oswald.
But after wiring his stripper the money he goes into the Police headquarters and realises Oswald still hasn't been moved...and it is then, at that moment,he thinks that if he doesn't carry out the mob's orders..he will be killed..and probably in a very cruesome way. Fear of the mob takes over..he then guns down Oswald. That is really the only other alternative explanation for Ruby's actions.
Then you would have to believe that "they" completely ignored Rubys inaction over the weekend by not having a plan B (another assassin) and didn't even bother to call Ruby on Sunday morning to ask why he hadn't killed Oswald yet.
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Thank you!
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Was Ruby the assassin.Was he ordered to silence Oswald. If he was why wasn't he in place at the appointed time.10.00 AM. At that time he was still in his dressing gown in his apartment
How could you really know that? Local news reporters and others said they saw Ruby around that time and he asked them about the transfer-- At 9:30 AM on November 24, Minister Ray Rushing arrives at City Hall and takes the elevator to the third floor. While on the elevator, he meets and talks with Jack Ruby. The minister is one of four witnesses who testified that they had seen Ruby in or near the police building between 8:00 and 11:00 AM... AT 10:35 AM, Ira Walker, WBAP (Fort Worth) television technician is inside the station’s news van outside City Hall, when Jack Ruby comes up to the window and asks “Has he been brought down yet?” ...But why Ruby had not taken the shot to Oswald at the previous day’s press conference might be explained by the fact that, in the early hours of Sunday, two warnings about Oswald being shot were received by the Dallas County Sheriff’s office, once by the Dallas FBI office at 2:30 AM, and at 3:00 AM by Dallas Police Officer Billy Grammar, who knew Jack Ruby. The final message was “If you move Oswald the way you are planning, we are going to kill him”.
https://riversong.wordpress.com/the-jack-ruby-connection/
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I made this point on the old site but I'll repost it..just to..join in the debate.
Was Ruby the assassin.Was he ordered to silence Oswald. If he was why wasn't he in place at the appointed time.10.00 AM. At that time he was still in his dressing gown in his apartment etc etc..sure we all know the gist of it...wire stripper money..took his dog..etc etc.
The only alternative explanation for Ruby actually carring out the killing to silence Oswald is this. He is under threat of death..or even worse... to silence Oswald and that's why he was stalking Oswald..but overnight he decides he's not going to do it..no matter what the mob do to him he's not going to kill Oswald. And that's why he is not at the Police station on time to kill Oswald.
But after wiring his stripper the money he goes into the Police headquarters and realises Oswald still hasn't been moved...and it is then, at that moment,he thinks that if he doesn't carry out the mob's orders..he will be killed..and probably in a very cruesome way. Fear of the mob takes over..he then guns down Oswald. That is really the only other alternative explanation for Ruby's actions.
This is more of a conspiracy than anything else.
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Ruby didn't have to go into downtown to wire money. There was a Western Union office right down the street from his apartment.
Ruby was a gun runner. For all we know he furnished rifles to the hitmen.
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I made this point on the old site but I'll repost it..just to..join in the debate.
Was Ruby the assassin.Was he ordered to silence Oswald. If he was why wasn't he in place at the appointed time.10.00 AM. At that time he was still in his dressing gown in his apartment etc etc..sure we all know the gist of it...wire stripper money..took his dog..etc etc.
The only alternative explanation for Ruby actually carring out the killing to silence Oswald is this. He is under threat of death..or even worse... to silence Oswald and that's why he was stalking Oswald..but overnight he decides he's not going to do it..no matter what the mob do to him he's not going to kill Oswald. And that's why he is not at the Police station on time to kill Oswald.
But after wiring his stripper the money he goes into the Police headquarters and realises Oswald still hasn't been moved...and it is then, at that moment,he thinks that if he doesn't carry out the mob's orders..he will be killed..and probably in a very cruesome way. Fear of the mob takes over..he then guns down Oswald. That is really the only other alternative explanation for Ruby's actions.
Would you leave your wife (who I guarantee couldn't drive) alone in the car knowing that you might get shot to death yourself?
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Would you leave your wife (who I guarantee couldn't drive) alone in the car knowing that you might get shot to death yourself?
Another weird Chapman question. In what kind of world do you reside? Are the nurses kind to you?
On a more serious note (which means it's not for you, Chapman) this conversation is completely based on the offical narrative..... what if that narrative simply isn't true?
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Would you leave your wife (who I guarantee couldn't drive) alone in the car knowing that you might get shot to death yourself?
Hey Billy, your girl Justina Trudeau really F'd up. Nothing new on the Canadian hypocrisy front.
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Hey Billy, your girl Justina Trudeau really F'd up. Nothing new on the Canadian hypocrisy front.
Poiitical correctness gone wild
Were you kicked out of Canada or refused citizenship or something
You seem on some sort of vendetta
---------------
We the North
She the North
Me the North
---------------
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Would you leave your wife (who I guarantee couldn't drive) alone in the car knowing that you might get shot to death yourself?
Can you send us some of that stuff you're smoking? 8)
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This is more of a conspiracy than anything else.
But the explanation I offered was an alternative explanation. Ruby acted alone.I don't believe he was under orders from the mob or anyone else. His movements were not the movements of an assassin. I was stating a theory, that if he was in fact ordered to carry out the killing, a change of mind, in the way I theorised, could conceivably explain his movements.
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Another weird Chapman question. In what kind of world do you reside? Are the nurses kind to you?
On a more serious note (which means it's not for you, Chapman) this conversation is completely based on the offical narrative..... what if that narrative simply isn't true?
#FAIL@YouMyAs I was walking a' alane, I heard twa corbies makin' a mane. The tane untae the tither did say, Whaur sail we gang and dine the day, O. Whaur sail we gang and dine the day? It's in ahint yon auld fail dyke I wot there lies a new slain knight; And naebody kens that he lies there But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair, O. But his hawk and his hound, and his lady fair. His hound is to the hunting gane His hawk to fetch the wild-fowl hame, His lady ta'en anither mate, So we may mak' our dinner swate, O. So we may mak' our dinner swate. Ye'll sit on his white hause-bane, And I'll pike oot his bonny blue e'en Wi' ae lock o' his gowden hair We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare, O. We'll theek oor nest when it grows bare. There's mony a ane for him maks mane But nane sail ken whaur he is gane O'er his white banes when they are bare The wind sail blaw for evermair, O. The wind sail blaw for evermair.': Here you are again, posting to me again after constantly braying that I'm not worthy of response
@Lurkers
Jack Ruby's Dog
https://konformist.com/jfkland/jack-rubys-dog.htm
EXCERPT: As confirmed by the Warren Commission Report, innumerable assassination books, and even Oliver Stone himself, Jack Ruby loved dogs. The portly strip club owner lived with a dozen canines, doting on them, and even calling them his "children." But it was a special dog, a dachshund named Sheba, that Ruby referred to as his "wife."
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Can you send us some of that stuff you're smoking? 8)
Jack Ruby's Dog
https://konformist.com/jfkland/jack-rubys-dog.htm
EXCERPT: As confirmed by the Warren Commission Report, innumerable assassination books, and even Oliver Stone himself, Jack Ruby loved dogs. The portly strip club owner lived with a dozen canines, doting on them, and even calling them his "children." But it was a special dog, a dachshund named Sheba, that Ruby referred to as his "wife."
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https://konformist.com/jfkland/jack-rubys-dog.htm
"Mickey Z" huh? So you get your stuff from him? I see.
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"Mickey Z" huh? So you get your stuff from him? I see.
You should be more concerned about Ruby's 'stuff'
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You should be more concerned about Ruby's 'stuff'
And I suggest that you check into a rehabilitation facility without delay.
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Jack Ruby and his dogs, who cares!!! And like Oliver Stone is some sort of expert, he was doped by Jim Garrison misleading the public about the whole assassination. Bill Clinton and Al Gore, wonderful examples of corruption and ignorance; Clinton for pay to play with the Clinton Foundation and Gore for his BS on climate change, come on....
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Ruby didn't have to go into downtown to wire money. There was a Western Union office right down the street from his apartment.
Ruby was a gun runner. For all we know he furnished rifles to the hitmen.
Thats wild stuff.
For all we know, he didnt furnish rifles to the hitmen.
Easy isnt it?
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Would you leave your wife (who I guarantee couldn't drive) alone in the car knowing that you might get shot to death yourself?
But if you look at my speculation, I clearly suggested Ruby went down, after wiring the money, to the DPS to see what was going on. He thought at this point, that Oswald had already been moved, as he had been told the previous day.
So you see his leaving his wife/dog in the car, at this point, was NOT in anticipation, that "he might get shot to death". It was in going down the ramp and being told or realising that Oswald had in fact, not been moved. Then the fear of being wacked by the mob, set in, and he then stepped forward and killed Oswald, as he had been ordered to do so.
I'm not saying this is how it happened, I'm just offering an alternative explanation for Ruby being the hired killer but not being in the DPS at the time Oswald was scheduled to be moved.
Again this is speculation, as opposed to the official reason that he did it to save Jackie or to be the man that shot the man who killed JFK.
And if Ruby was in on the alleged conspiracy and was ordered to bump off Oswald...can anybody give a reason for Ruby NOT being in place..on time..to carry out the murder.
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Thats wild stuff. For all we know, he didnt furnish rifles to the hitmen.
Wild huh? ----------Click around....
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/gunrunner-ruby-and-the-cia
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/R%20Disk/Ruby%20Jack%20Gunrunning%20Alleged%20-%20Pistol/Item%2005.pdf
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http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=44
Thanks for the list Gary, what I find interesting is that the majority of these ear-witnesses seem to describe that ALL the shots came from one area or another, so it seems that not many ear-witnesses describe shots coming from multiple directions which by definition must mean only one assassin.
Enough! Stop right there. Hog slobber has more value than that crock of gibberish. "Must mean only ONE assassin" :D
Mary Woodward, a journalist on the Dallas Morning News, was standing on the north side of Elm Street, about halfway between the TSBD and the grassy knoll. She wrote about her experience in the following day’s paper. [The FBI re-wrote her statement]
Suddenly there was a horrible, ear–shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the right.
(‘Witness From the News Describes Assassination’, Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963, p.3)
United States Attorney H. BAREFOOT SANDERS, Dallas, Texas, telephonically advised ASAC KYLE G. CLARK on December 5, 1963, that a reporter for the Dallas “Morning News”, name unrecalled, had advised him that four of the women working in the Society Section of the Dallas “Morning News” were reportedly standing next to Mr. ZAPRUDA [sic] when the assassination shots were fired. According to this reporter, these women, names unknown, stated that the shots according to their opinion came from a direction other than from the Texas School Book Depository (TSBD) Building.
(Warren Commission Document 205, p.39, 5 December 1963)
She stated that her first reaction was that the shots had been fired from above her head and from possibly behind her. Her next reaction was that the shots might have come from the overpass which was to her right. She stated, however, because of the loud echo, she could not say where the shots had come from, other that they had come from above her head.
(Warren Commission Hearings, vol.24, p.520, 6 December 1963)
These [as they were called 'ear witnesses'] were also eye witnesses. They were there.
The Oswald did it crowd here has lost all credibility of even possessing basic thought.
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A strange phone call to the parents of Mrs Jack Kennedy---- It outlines a conspiracy/patsy=Oswald/cops let him die...
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=51&tab=page
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490#relPageId=52&tab=page
A request that Hoover "straighten out the mess" :D har har
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Ruby didn't have to go into downtown to wire money. There was a Western Union office right down the street from his apartment.
Ruby was a gun runner. For all we know he furnished rifles to the hitmen.
So you're claiming Ruby was a professional hitman, then? Please, please elaborate, this is going to be fun! :D :D
Did not say that Ruby was a pro. How much talent and skill does it take to kill?
Everyone that knows it all won't read anything anyway----
(http://harveyandlee.net/November/Tommy%20Rowe%20and%20Ruby.jpg)
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LBJ realized that it would be very risky for Oswald to have a trial by jury. If Oswald was a CIA asset, then termination was better than exposing CIA connection to Oswald and Oswald himself perhaps testifying of his prior activity in the USSR as part of the defector program which few of the regular public knew existed in 1963. There could be a chain reaction of death to CIA agents who might be exposed by Oswald naming some names.
Since the prevailing attitude of the counter intelligence CIA director, James Angelton was that National Security takes precedence over the constraints of the US Constitution, its easy to see why they might have made the decision to have Oswald terminated and to deflect that action being blamed on CIA, they forced Jack Ruby, their Mafia intelligence insider to do the job, and to do it on camera as well, so as to make it appear that the Mafia was behind the JFK assassination. Jack wias probably promised a new identity and a fake death certificate, only Jack found out a little later that he REALLY WAS going to be dead.
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Ruby was a nut-job, simple as that. In his twisted mind, he'd be celebrated as a hero and let go.
Well double check that... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2388.msg77117.html#new
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LBJ realized that it would be very risky for Oswald to have a trial by jury. If Oswald was a CIA asset, then termination was better than exposing CIA connection to Oswald and Oswald himself perhaps testifying of his prior activity in the USSR as part of the defector program which few of the regular public knew existed in 1963. There could be a chain reaction of death to CIA agents who might be exposed by Oswald naming some names.
Since the prevailing attitude of the counter intelligence CIA director, James Angelton was that National Security takes precedence over the constraints of the US Constitution, its easy to see why they might have made the decision to have Oswald terminated and to deflect that action being blamed on CIA, they forced Jack Ruby, their Mafia intelligence insider to do the job, and to do it on camera as well, so as to make it appear that the Mafia was behind the JFK assassination. Jack wias probably promised a new identity and a fake death certificate, only Jack found out a little later that he REALLY WAS going to be dead.
LBJ realized that it would be very risky for Oswald to have a trial by jury.
Yes that's probably very true.... BUT I doubt that LBJ ever seriously entertained the idea of Lee Oswald being tried. I'm sure that he wanted Lee silenced ASAP. He was probably very disappointed that Lee had been allowed to leave the TSBD alive... and doubly disappointed when Lee was still consuming oxygen when he left the Texas Theater....
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LBJ realized that it would be very risky for Oswald to have a trial by jury.
Yes that's probably very true.... BUT I doubt that LBJ ever seriously entertained the idea of Lee Oswald being tried. I'm sure that he wanted Lee silenced ASAP. He was probably very disappointed that Lee had been allowed to leave the TSBD alive... and doubly disappointed when Lee was still consuming oxygen when he left the Texas Theater....
And when "they" let Lee stand up in front of the entire world in the police station to say anything he wanted.
Such a huge conspiracy, yet they'll allow that to happen.
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And when "they" let Lee stand up in front of the entire world in the police station to say anything he wanted.
Such a huge conspiracy, yet they'll allow that to happen.
Lee was of the opinion that he was going to be allowed to escape to Cuba . He didn't know that JFK had been murdered... " The first I heard that was when the reporter in the hall asked me that question".... Lee Oswald.... Midnight 11/22/63
Since Lee thought that he was working undercover and the plan was that he would wind up in Cuba, he would never have volunteered any information that would jeopardize that plan..... Although he did request that"Someone" come to his legal defense.
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What are your thoughts regarding this?
Fred
Here is what his wife Marina wrote about this:
It was a great sorrow for me to be left with two little babies, not knowing English, and without any money. Bit I thought that if my husband actually did this deed, God judged correctly.
CE 994
I tend to agree with her about this subject.
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Here is what his wife Marina wrote about this:
It was a great sorrow for me to be left with two little babies, not knowing English, and without any money. Bit I thought that if my husband actually did this deed, God judged correctly.
CE 994
I tend to agree with her about this subject.
I’m not sure what this means.
That God arranged to have Oswald shot?
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Here is what his wife Marina wrote about this:
It was a great sorrow for me to be left with two little babies, not knowing English, and without any money. Bit I thought that if my husband actually did this deed, God judged correctly.
CE 994
I tend to agree with her about this subject.
I had trouble accepting that narrative as completely genuine.
One thing...at the bottom of part -17- [page 612] --"We named our daughter June in honor of the month of June, the month in which the life of one more human being in our family began."
http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pdf/WH18_CE_994.pdf
June Oswald was born February 15 1962 according to the timeline on record--
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
Which...if in fact-- would make her 58th birthday tomorrow at the time of this post.
I wouldn't think Marina would forget her own daughter's birthday.
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I had trouble accepting that narrative as completely genuine.
One thing...at the bottom of part -17- [page 612] --"We named our daughter June in honor of the month of June, the month in which the life of one more human being in our family began."
http://aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/pdf/WH18_CE_994.pdf
June Oswald was born February 15 1962 according to the timeline on record--
http://jfkassassination.net/parnell/chrono.htm
Which...if in fact-- would make her 58th birthday tomorrow at the time of this post.
I wouldn't think Marina would forget her own daughter's birthday.
Apparently they believed that she was conceived in the month of June and that a her life began at conception.
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Apparently they believed that she was conceived in the month of June and that a her life began at conception.
I would say remotely possible [rather than apparent] The life at conception concept was not so prevalent back then...
Especially in an atheistic society. [Oswald was expressly atheist] So I would say coincidence. Nice try though.
...just ask anyone with a combover! Early Baldness may have been another reason that Oswald lost the plot, it seems in my experience that a lot of bald people are just really hostile and lash out aggressively for some reason?
I just now caught this one. He shot Kennedy was because Oswald was going bald --a resentment no doubt at the Adonis commander in cheif with his full head of fleece!
Oh brother :D
And has absolutely nothing to do with why OSWALD was killed. [unless Ruby just didn't like bald guys]
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Ruby seems to have been following Oswald as early as just minutes after JFK is shot as per some Dealey plaza witness who claim they think they saw Ruby outside the TSBD
Ruby was at the midnight Patsy conference in the audience and claims he was intending to shoot Oswald then but decided it was too risky and he might accidentally hit some reporters in the way
Ruby can also be seen next day in DPD hallway as Oswald is moved and when Oswald shouted “I categorically deny these charges”
Sure does seem like Those “people in high places” wanted Ruby to take the shot ASAP and while in midst of reporters and cameras
No evidence bullet was laced with poison
One shot only even though a revolver can fire 3 shots very rapidly
AIM was at stomach not the head
Shooter is well known individual with
“Mob” friends
Shooter performs in midst of motion cameras and scene illuminated with extra bright lights
sure does seem like a Live Action Role Playing event meant to be witnessed by public in real time
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I would say remotely possible [rather than apparent] The life at conception concept was not so prevalent back then...
Especially in an atheistic society. [Oswald was expressly atheist] So I would say coincidence. Nice try though.
I was 9 years old in 1962. And probably not yet taught much about the birds and bees. But when I was exposed to the subject just a few years later, even though I did go to church every week, it was mostly from a scientific perspective. And the information in this article agrees with what I remember being taught. So I don’t think that the Oswald’s view on the subject would have necessarily been based on religious beliefs.
https://lozierinstitute.org/a-scientific-view-of-when-life-begins/
Excerpt:
The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally accepted scientific method of distinguishing different cell types from each other and on ample scientific evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications). Moreover, it is entirely independent of any specific ethical, moral, political, or religious view of human life or of human embryos. Indeed, this definition does not directly address the central ethical question surrounding the embryo: What value ought society place on human life at the earliest stages of development? A neutral examination of the evidence merely establishes the onset of a new human life at a scientifically well-defined “moment of conception,” a conclusion that unequivocally indicates that human embryos from the one-cell stage forward are indeed living individuals of the human species; i.e., human beings.
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https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/lozier-institute/ (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/lozier-institute/)
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I would say remotely possible [rather than apparent] The life at conception concept was not so prevalent back then...
Especially in an atheistic society. [Oswald was expressly atheist] So I would say coincidence. Nice try though.
I just now caught this one. He shot Kennedy was because Oswald was going bald --a resentment no doubt at the Adonis commander in cheif with his full head of fleece!
Oh brother :D
And has absolutely nothing to do with why OSWALD was killed. [unless Ruby just didn't like bald guys]
Ruby just didn't like bald guys
There are reports that Ruby, like guys..... especially if they were balled.....
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Ruby just didn't like bald guys
There are reports that Ruby, like guys..... especially if they were balled.....
You cheeky. :D
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You cheeky. :D
I heard he liked screwin' the pooch
Poor Sheba
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https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/lozier-institute/ (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/lozier-institute/)
Thanks for showing the "validity" (not) of that website.
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God arranged to have Oswald shot?
Nobody is safe from the conspiracy theorists! :D
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#1 tip-top arrangement for covering up an assassination---kill the accused assassin. There will be no trial to worry about.
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I heard he liked screwin' the pooch
Poor Sheba
He did say that he considered Sheba to be his "wife".
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He did say that he considered Sheba to be his "wife".
Self-deprecating humor? There is a danger of overthinking this.
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The LN reason that it was Ruby wanting to be hero does kinda fits the one bullet shot only
The problem for this theory imo is
1. Ruby going down the ramp is improbable because of the cop guarding the ramp and a cab driver who was parked and was watching the whole time and neither cop nor cabby saw Ruby
2. Why ,if the motive was fame ,would Ruby’s 1st statements befote a camera be suggesting we would never know the truth and that people in high places were involved. Why risk agitating such people who could easily kill him while in jail , when it wasn’t true?
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The LN reason that it was Ruby wanting to be hero does kinda fits the one bullet shot only
The problem for this theory imo is
1. Ruby going down the ramp is improbable because of the cop guarding the ramp and a cab driver who was parked and was watching the whole time and neither cop nor cabby saw Ruby
2. Why ,if the motive was fame ,would Ruby’s 1st statements befote a camera be suggesting we would never know the truth and that people in high places were involved. Why risk agitating such people who could easily kill him while in jail , when it wasn’t true?
In his testimony to the Warren Commission Ruby said he wanted to have a polygraph or take a truth serum so that people would believe what he was saying, that he wasn't part of a conspiracy, would be believed. He was concerned that if people believed he was part of a conspiracy that this put his life and the lives of his family in danger and that the Jewish people as a whole would be blamed in someway. He was concerned about organisations such as the John Birch Society. He didn't say anything about knowledge of a plot and said he did it because he was emotional. I think he felt somewhere in his mind that he would be seen as a hero and that he had always wanted to be a hero.
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#1 tip-top arrangement for covering up an assassination---kill the accused assassin. There will be no trial to worry about.
A strategy as old as the coup d e'tat.....
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Jerry, you are right. I read somewhere that it was an old Sicilian mafia technique; set up a patsy, kill the patsy with someone unacknowledged about the plot and eventually kill him. There is a very interesting book about Dorothy Killgallen called "Dorothy Killgallen - The reporter that knew too much" about her interviewing Jack Ruby during his trial and her going down to New Orleans digging up information. She was going to go down a second time but she was murdered before she could. The night she was murdered all of her notes about Jack Ruby went missing.
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Jerry, you are right. I read somewhere that it was an old Sicilian mafia technique; set up a patsy, kill the patsy with someone unacknowledged about the plot and eventually kill him. There is a very interesting book about Dorothy Killgallen called "Dorothy Killgallen - The reporter that knew too much" about her interviewing Jack Ruby during his trial and her going down to New Orleans digging up information. She was going to go down a second time but she was murdered before she could. The night she was murdered all of her notes about Jack Ruby went missing.
I always was told that Ms. Kilgallen had accidentally overdosed on booze & pills, so her being murdered struck me as a weird conspiracy theory, but apparently her death is mysterious and indeed her JFK assassination files vanished. I don't know what a 'podcast' is as I was born in the Stone Age, but this one is interesting, but long:
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Part 2 of the podcast with possible explanations for her unexpected death:
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Ruby hung out with a notorious crowd and for the lack of a better situation he was told to take out LHO before LHO had a chance to talk ! Who knows , maybe Ruby was a ' Manchurian Candidate ' ! This was not the first time for a person to be duped into being the Patsy ! It seems that Ruby was put in a no win situation for himself to be able to shoot LHO . The Warren Commission would not take Ruby back to Washington so Ruby could talk ! Ruby might have spilled the beans on what actually happened . Who knows and why was JFK buried so quick . Killed on Friday and buried on Monday . Sounds like JFK was put in the ground awfully quick .
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I did some checking because I thought it was kind of quick after you mentioned it but found it’s not unusual to be buried within 3 days after dying. Ike, LBJ, and JFK, 3 days. McArthur, 4 days. Regan 6 days. All of them lied in state for 2 days.
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I believe Oswald was supposed to be murdered by his co-conspirators prior to his run-in with Tippit.
Oswald’s arrest wasn’t part of the original plan. Once he was in police custody, Jack Ruby was one of the few underworld-connected people who were able to get close enough to take him out.
Ruby wasn’t an ideal assassin but he was in debt and had Cancer...
Belief is something one has in the absence of evidence.
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"They" also had no idea if he had already talked after nearly 48 hours in custody.
A bullet to the stomach, giving Oswald a 90% chance of survival and guaranteeing Oswald would spill the beans after likely surviving the attempt on his life makes no sense.
Heres a study of 300 patients with abdominal gunshot wounds.
"The overall survival rate for the series was 88.3%; however, if only the 226 patients without vascular injuries are considered, the survival rate was 97.3%."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1493651/
The first mob hit in history with a single shot to the stomach using a .38 where the assassin brought his dog with him to the hit and left it in the car outside.
Mafia hit men do not shoot people in the stomach once with a handgun.
Ted Shields fails to provide statistics concerning Mafia hits or his expertise on that matter.
Ruby kills Oswald with a single shot from a .38 but Oswald should have had a 98% chance of survival?
Well chock that up to another coincidence [of which there are thousands]
Mr Shields also believes that it is news reporter Jack Ruby sitting in the police station---
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2564.msg88350.html#msg88350
Mr Shields also believes that BOTH Seth Kantor and Wilma Tice were lying about seeing Ruby at Parkland but heartily believes that Honest Jack Ruby was truthful concerning his whereabouts.
https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2334.msg75731.html#msg75731
Which led me to wonder...What about Sheba?... and Jack leaving his favorite pup in the car while he walked down the street and down into the basement to blast Oswald?
The Commission guys brought in the parking attendant just for that purpose it seems...
Probably knowing that the word of the Dallas police detectives sent to search Ruby's Olds may not hold up to public scrutiny.
But even the testimony of the parking lot attendant did not seem so certain--
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby did not park by the month there?
Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When you came up and saw this car did you put a ticket on it?
Mr. JACKSON. I put a ticket on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other cars parked in the lot?
Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; about, oh, I guess about six--about six more besides his, five or six more, I disremember.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, and you put a ticket on the car, did you notice whether the car was open, or closed?
Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn't. I just looked at the car and the key was gone. The keys wasn't in the switch, and I just got a ticket, just stamped the ticket and put it on the windshield.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a dog in the car?
Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I think so. It was--yes, it was a dog in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any window open so that the dog could get some air?
Mr. JACKSON. I never looked whether there was or not.
How humane :-\
What breed of dog...wasn't asked.
Mr Ruby's Dachshund might have been friendly...wasn't asked.
Could have barked...wasn't asked.
Could have been thirsty..wasn't asked.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they do anything with this dog, that you know of?
Mr. JACKSON. I don't know. They took the car to the pound.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the dog? Was it still in the car when they took it?
Mr. JACKSON. Yes; the dog was still in the car.
The testimony of Theodore Jackson was taken at 9:30 a.m., on April 1, 1964 [April Fools Day]
The attendant stated that he did not open the parking lot until 12 noon. Usually back then, Sundays were not especially normal operating days for parking lots.
Perhaps, maybe Mr Jackson was just told that there was a dog?
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"They" also had no idea if he had already talked after nearly 48 hours in custody.
This has been mentioned several times before and I have asked before...if Oswald didn't know anything...what was he supposed to talk about?
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I think he could have possibly known that Marcello and others pulled off the assassination. It was certainly known afterwards on the street that Marcello's people pulled it off. There is a fair amount of information about the New Orleans underworld in the book "Mr New Orleans" about a pimp called Frenchy Brouillette. It's a very fun read.
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An ideal patsy must [out of necessity] know as little as possible about an "operation".
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I agree but he did know he was a patsy because he said so. I also think he knew that Marcello set him up but their is no way Oswald would have crossed him.
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I agree but he did know he was a patsy because he said so. I also think he knew that Marcello set him up but their is no way Oswald would have crossed him.
He must have known, he was heading straight to Jack Rubys house when he encountered Tippit. When he was blocked from continuing his journey, he must have known something was up.
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I had never heard that Oswald was going to Ruby's house. Interesting if he was, it just supported the next step in the process that Ruby was supposed to kill Oswald after the assassination.
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I had never heard that Oswald was going to Ruby's house. Interesting if he was, it just supported the next step in the process that Ruby was supposed to kill Oswald after the assassination.
The path the Warren Commission drew from Oswalds house at 1026 North Beckley avenue to the Tippit murder site , if you extend their line, it goes straight to Jack Rubys house.
Bit of a coincidence.
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The path the Warren Commission drew from Oswalds house at 1026 North Beckley avenue to the Tippit murder site , if you extend their line, it goes straight to Jack Rubys house.
Bit of a coincidence.
No it doesn't. You have no idea where Oswald was heading, nor does anyone else. Stop repeating crap you read on conspiracy nut websites. If you draw a straight line it looks like Oswald was going to the zoo...maybe he wanted to feed peanuts to the elephants.
Is that also a "Bit of a coincidence"?
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ie=UTF8&t=p&source=embed&oe=UTF8&msa=0&mid=1pcRTPe-ohJA2jPukO_10SIy-TD4&ll=32.74667913900156%2C-96.81531502281227&z=15
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Mr. Pointing is correct.
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Except this alleged Oswald didn't allegedly walk in a straight line to where Tippit was shot.
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Except this alleged Oswald didn't allegedly walk in a straight line to where Tippit was shot.
Also correct, Mr I.
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No it doesn't. You have no idea where Oswald was heading, nor does anyone else. Stop repeating crap you read on conspiracy nut websites. If you draw a straight line it looks like Oswald was going to the zoo...maybe he wanted to feed peanuts to the elephants.
Is that also a "Bit of a coincidence"?
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ie=UTF8&t=p&source=embed&oe=UTF8&msa=0&mid=1pcRTPe-ohJA2jPukO_10SIy-TD4&ll=32.74667913900156%2C-96.81531502281227&z=15
The Warren Report said Oswald was heading in a straight line to Jack Rubys house.
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The Warren Report said Oswald was heading in a straight line to Jack Rubys house.
Mr Down.... You can avoid some confusion if you disregard the information the Warren Commission handed out and pay close attention to the FACTS.
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The Warren Report said Oswald was heading in a straight line to Jack Rubys house.
Ruby's apartment was somewhat south but the Report denies any connection. This can be found in the rumors and speculation chapter...
Page 650
Speculation--Oswald was on his way to Jack Ruby's apartment when he was stopped by Patrolman Tippit.
Commission finding.--There is no evidence that Oswald and Ruby knew each other or had any relationship through a third party or parties. There is no evidence that Oswald knew where Ruby lived. Accordingly, there is neither evidence nor reason to believe that Oswald was on his way to Ruby's apartment when he was stopped by Tippit.49
https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-12.html
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Mr Down.... You can avoid some confusion if you disregard the information the Warren Commission handed out and pay close attention to the FACTS.
FACTS
aka
Freakin'
Asinine
Conspiracy
Theorist
Sh*t
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The Warren Report said Oswald was heading in a straight line to Jack Rubys house.
Of course it doesn't, that's absolute BS. If so please cite from the WR and I'll unreservedly apologise.
@ Jerry Freeman, does this lool like "slightly south" to you: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ie=UTF8&t=p&source=embed&oe=UTF8&msa=0&mid=1pcRTPe-ohJA2jPukO_10SIy-TD4&ll=32.74738298529508%2C-96.81894769368981&z=15
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@ Jerry Freeman, does this lool like "slightly south" to you: https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?ie=UTF8&t=p&source=embed&oe=UTF8&msa=0&mid=1pcRTPe-ohJA2jPukO_10SIy-TD4&ll=32.74738298529508%2C-96.81894769368981&z=15
I said 'somewhat south" and it was. Why do you have to show up to try and pop every zit you think is showing up? Look how you spelled 'look'.
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I said 'somewhat south" and it was. Why do you have to show up to try and pop every zit you think is showing up? Look how you spelled 'look'.
You're being a bit hard on yourself Jerry, you shouldn't describe yourself as a zit! As for my misspelling 'look' I feel so terribly ashamed , what can I possibly say to make amends? I probably wont sleep tonight now worrying about it. :D :D :D
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... 'look' I feel so terribly ashamed , what can I possibly say to make amends? I probably wont sleep tonight now worrying about it. :D :D :D
Just swallow your whole bottle full of Ambien ...that should help (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/Smileys/default2/popcorn_eating.gif)