JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Anthony Clayden on April 14, 2019, 10:31:13 PM
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The DPD/WC invesitigators decided that the 6th floor "snipers nest" was the shooting location.
Then they confirmed their prime suspect was located around 90 sec post shooting in the 2nd floor lunch room (with a coke or buying a coke, or something to do with a coke)
Then they did timing tests to confirm which routes where available to get Oswaldd from the 6th to the 2nd in time.
The only possible path to make the transit was decided to be the stairs.
Stairs that involved crossing a segmet of each floor on the way down.
Why isn't the very next step to confirm with the 17 staff who were located between the 2nd and 6th floor, if they were in a position to monitor the stairs?
Of course they had Adams claiming to use the stairs but she and Styles descent was pushed to a latter descent. If the Stroud document is genuine they know that Garner had some visiblty of the stairs and backed Adams an Styles' early descent. Of course they could have asked Dorman, whose testimony describes moving quickly to near where Garner was, including using the word "run".
So WC defenders, surely the path being clear is an essential part of confirming the suspect as the shooter? So was wasn't an attempt made to confirm the path was clear, or were the WC afraid of what it might bring up and hushed up the evidence of the path being blocked?
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The DPD/WC invesitigators decided that the 6th floor "snipers nest" was the shooting location.
Then they confirmed their prime suspect was located around 90 sec post shooting in the 2nd floor lunch room (with a coke or buying a coke, or something to do with a coke)
Then they did timing tests to confirm which routes where available to get Oswaldd from the 6th to the 2nd in time.
The only possible path to make the transit was decided to be the stairs.
Stairs that involved crossing a segmet of each floor on the way down.
Why isn't the very next step to confirm with the 17 staff who were located between the 2nd and 6th floor, if they were in a position to monitor the stairs?
Of course they had Adams claiming to use the stairs but she and Styles descent was pushed to a latter descent. If the Stroud document is genuine they know that Garner had some visiblty of the stairs and backed Adams an Styles' early descent. Of course they could have asked Dorman, whose testimony describes moving quickly to near where Garner was, including using the word "run".
So WC defenders, surely the path being clear is an essential part of confirming the suspect as the shooter? So was wasn't an attempt made to confirm the path was clear, or were the WC afraid of what it might bring up and hushed up the evidence of the path being blocked?
The Adams and Styles descent was pushed to a later descent by Adams herself and by the fact that they never encountered Baker and Lovelady on their way down.
The path on the way down was clear. The only person who placed himself anywhere near the stairwell was Jack Dougherty. However, that placement is highly doubtful. Dougherty was not reliable, due to no fault of his own.
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The Adams and Styles descent was pushed to a later descent by Adams herself and by the fact that they never encountered Baker and Lovelady on their way down.
The path on the way down was clear. The only person who placed himself anywhere near the stairwell was Jack Dougherty. However, that placement is highly doubtful. Dougherty was not reliable, due to no fault of his own.
Going from memory here, but didn't Adams later deny having said that to the authorities?
-- MWT ;)
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Going from memory here, but didn't Adams later deny having said that to the authorities?
-- MWT ;)
First off, I said Baker and Lovelady when I meant Baker and Truly. According to Barry Ernest, Adams denied that she told the WC and James Leavelle that she had encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley upon reaching the first floor. That may be what she recalled four decades after the fact but we have her signed deposition , including a page of it on which she notated a part that she believed to be in error.
(https://i.imgur.com/i1XhwUp.png)
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Tim,
Firstly none of the other 3 people record seeing each other, Styles, Lovelady and Shelly.
Secondly why not ask the other 2 woman with them, how long before Adams and Styles.
Thirdly and most importantly, where did anyone ask any of the other people on the 3rd and 4th floors if they were in a position to observe the rear stairs?
If so why wasn't this obvious step taken?
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Tim,
Firstly none of the other 3 people record seeing each other, Styles, Lovelady and Shelly.
Secondly why not ask the other 2 woman with them, how long before Adams and Styles.
Thirdly and most importantly, where did anyone ask any of the other people on the 3rd and 4th floors if they were in a position to observe the rear stairs?
If so why wasn't this obvious step taken?
If Adams left the 4th floor almost immediately and wasn't seen by Truly/Baker on the way up, then wouldn't she simply be just ahead of Oswald all the way down, why does Oswald need to pass the women on the stairs?
JohnM
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JohnM,
Problem is that if, as Stroud document indicates, that Garner was following Adam and Styles, and was close enough to hear them going down the stairs and then sees Truly and Baker come up. It leaves a very small window for Oswald to somehow sneak past Garner. It isn't the girls on the stairs that is the real challenge but Garner at he rear of the 4th floor. Garner's time could have been confirmed by Dorman, who is usually held to be the fourth of the ladies to move but uses very immediate language in regards to her following Garner and uses the word "run" to describe her movements to where Garner was.
The 2nd floor meeting is constrained by Truly and Baker's ascent time and Reid's ascent and crossing paths with Oswald.
I haven't read "Girls on the Stairs", but does anyone know if Dorman was asked if she saw Truly and Baker going up?
My issues is not that I can prove that Oswald couldn't have used the stairs, but that the investigators should have confirmed the stairs were clear for him to use.
Having not interviewed all the staff between the 2nd and 5th , on if they could view or where viewing the rear stairs , we can have no certainty that the stairs where clear for Oswald to traverse.
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If Adams left the 4th floor almost immediately and wasn't seen by Truly/Baker on the way up, then wouldn't she simply be just ahead of Oswald all the way down, why does Oswald need to pass the women on the stairs?
JohnM
then wouldn't she simply be just ahead of Oswald all the way down
Perhaps, but if that were true, wouldn't he be seen by (at least one of) the women that remained the 4t floor?
Garner saw Baker and Truly come up, after Adams and Styles went down, so she must have been close to the stairs, right?
why does Oswald need to pass the women on the stairs?
He doesn't have to, if he wasn't there
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First off, I said Baker and Lovelady when I meant Baker and Truly. According to Barry Ernest, Adams denied that she told the WC and James Leavelle that she had encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley upon reaching the first floor. That may be what she recalled four decades after the fact but we have her signed deposition , including a page of it on which she notated a part that she believed to be in error.
(https://i.imgur.com/i1XhwUp.png)
Adams denied that she told the WC and James Leavelle that she had encountered Billy Lovelady and Bill Shelley upon reaching the first floor.
When Barry Ernest asked Sandra Styles if She and Vicky encountered anybody on the first floor....Styles said that there was a "Blackman" there on the first floor... And neither Shelley or Lovelady were there.... She said that she knew both Shelley and Lovelady and would definitely have remembered them if they had been there...
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We know that Adam's and Styles went down the stairs (at some stage, I believe early)
Garner went to the back of the fourth floor, Dorman then joins her there.
The three guys on fifth went to the west side to look out where people seemed to be moving, one of them indicates he saw a policeman passing by to the lift.
Dougherty was also at the rear of the fifth but is not seen by the three guys at the front, nor do they see him. He has left the floor by elevator by the time Truly and Baker arrive but wold have been in the area as Oswald went past, if Oswald did indeed use the rear stairs
How about the movement and view of the rear stairs by any of the other staff?
We simply don't know as the DPD and WC didn't seem to think it important to confirm if anybody was in a position to confirm anybody using the stairs.
Of all the people we do know about inside the TSBD between the 3rd and 7th, 5 out of the 8, had common reaction to leave the South side and look out the West side of the building (and 2 went outside, and JED went up and down a lift), as that is where people outside seemed to be moving towards. Moving to the West wall placed them in a better position to view the ongoing commotion outside but also to observe and hear movement across their floors from the stairs in the North West corner.
The question "Did you see Oswald?" should have been joined with, "Could you see the rear stairs and did you see anyone using them"?
LN'ers why didn't they ask this obvious question?
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Tim,
Firstly none of the other 3 people record seeing each other, Styles, Lovelady and Shelly.
So what?
Secondly why not ask the other 2 woman with them, how long before Adams and Styles.
There were more than 2 other women with them. Why would they be expected to notice when Adams and Styles left. Styles was asked by Sean Murphy about it and she said that they left no less than a minute after the shooting.
Thirdly and most importantly, where did anyone ask any of the other people on the 3rd and 4th floors if they were in a position to observe the rear stairs?
If so why wasn't this obvious step taken?
How do you know that they weren't asked? Their positions have all been accounted for. With Dougherty excluded, none were in a position to observe the rear stairs until some time after the shooting.
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JohnM,
Problem is that if, as Stroud document indicates, that Garner was following Adam and Styles, and was close enough to hear them going down the stairs and then sees Truly and Baker come up.
Close enough to hear them but she didn't see them as they headed down. If she recalled that accurately, then Oswald could have also passed by and been on the stairs below the fourth floor, following just behind Adams and Styles who were tearing down making a racket on the wooden steps in their three inch heeled shoes.
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The only person who placed himself anywhere near the stairwell was Jack Dougherty. However, that placement is highly doubtful. Dougherty was not reliable, due to no fault of his own.
Dougherty was reliable enough to fill orders and check the fire alarm each morning.
Mr. BALL - Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh---shipping clerk.
Mr. BALL - And what kind of work is that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the---they are orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and outside of doing little odd jobs besides that---that's it.
Mr. BALL - What time did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I got there---it was after 7 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. BALL - Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the men get there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say, I have a little---extra chores to do.
Mr. BALL - You do that--you get there at 7 all the time, don't you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years.
Mr. BALL - That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And you did get there about 7 that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra chores--what are those extra chores?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. In other words, the air pressure is up to where---up to 40 pounds so that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call me.
Mr. BALL - What is the ADT?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's that---I don't know too much about it---it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there.
Mr. BALL - You mean the pressure, do you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes
Mr. BALL - Is that a fire-alarm system?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--you could call it that.
Mr. BALL - Now, what else do you do there early in the morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is no leaks ,in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere.
Mr. BALL - Anything else you do?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No; I believe that just about covers it.
I believe he became "more confused" or distressed after the shooting (comment from Truly) and possible "less reliable".
His was quite specific about his position at the time he heard the rifle shot.
Mr. BALL - Tell me this---when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--- that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me exactly where you were?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator---the west side of the elevator.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y24yv15/dougherty.jpg)
Here is a picture that you can use as a reference.
(https://i.ibb.co/9cc80zk/E470-E166-A43-B-4-BB3-BF69-FAC063-DF858-D.jpg)
Was Dougherty retrieving stock from the boxes to the left of the picture? As the elevator gates were left open at this time, one assumes he was not far from the only elevator that could be "called" at that time. The east elevator was on the same floor. Dougherty was assumed to have moved the west elevator by the time Baker and Truly arrived. Where did it go?
(https://i.ibb.co/HDvjBrj/FAEBE943-5-B5-D-40-F2-B16-B-62698967-D1-A0.png)
Another inconvenience that needed to be clarified, Williams also not very reliable after the shooting it seems. Must have been confused or misunderstood by the FBI. Easy mistake to make.
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The DPD/WC invesitigators decided that the 6th floor "snipers nest" was the shooting location.
Then they confirmed their prime suspect was located around 90 sec post shooting in the 2nd floor lunch room (with a coke or buying a coke, or something to do with a coke)
They didn't 'confirm' this, Mr Clayden, they decided it (late on the Friday). They knew full well that Mr Oswald had been seen at the front entrance just after the shooting, but switched this sighting up to the lunchroom. Least worst option! Relocating to anywhere by the stairwells on 3 and 4 wouldn't work because they had talked to members of staff who would have been in a position to see a Baker-Oswald-Truly encounter there.
Thumb1:
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So what?
There were more than 2 other women with them. Why would they be expected to notice when Adams and Styles left. Styles was asked by Sean Murphy about it and she said that they left no less than a minute after the shooting.
How do you know that they weren't asked? Their positions have all been accounted for. With Dougherty excluded, none were in a position to observe the rear stairs until some time after the shooting.
1) Adams is recorded as seeing people, and none of the other 3 saw each other, means that the piece of data is uncorroborated, taken with her later denials and other testimony of an early descent makes it an outlier.
2) There was only 4 woman in that office, the other people were in other south facing sections of the 4th floor. Garner arrived in time to hear the other girls descend and then see Truly and Baker come up. However T&B didn't see the girls om the stairs, so they must have descended and exited before T&B started up the stairs. If so either Oswald is ahead of the girls and loiters in the 2nd floor lunchroom or sneaks past Garner on the 4th (moving quickly on wooden floor boards)
3) There responses were not recorded, so if they were asked, are you saying the information was suppressed or just counted as unimportant. The positions were accounted for at the time fo the shooting but not in the 2 minutes that followed. The crucial window where any shooter from the 6th would need to descend.
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That may be what she recalled four decades after the fact but we have her signed deposition , including a page of it on which she notated a part that she believed to be in error.
And you know that Adams notated this...how?
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If Adams left the 4th floor almost immediately and wasn't seen by Truly/Baker on the way up, then wouldn't she simply be just ahead of Oswald all the way down
Only if Oswald had actually been on the stairs at all. But then Adams/Styles didn?t hear any footsteps in the stairwell.
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But then Adams/Styles didn?t hear any footsteps in the stairwell.
Didn't they hear their own footsteps?
JohnM
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Didn't they hear their own footsteps?
:D ::)
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1) Adams is recorded as seeing people, and none of the other 3 saw each other, means that the piece of data is uncorroborated, taken with her later denials and other testimony of an early descent makes it an outlier.
What other testimony of an early descent?
2) There was only 4 woman in that office, the other people were in other south facing sections of the 4th floor. Garner arrived in time to hear the other girls descend and then see Truly and Baker come up. However T&B didn't see the girls om the stairs, so they must have descended and exited before T&B started up the stairs. If so either Oswald is ahead of the girls and loiters in the 2nd floor lunchroom or sneaks past Garner on the 4th (moving quickly on wooden floor boards)
You are right. There were only four women in that office.Hollies and Foster were in another room.
Styles was adamant that they never left right away. No less than a minute she said. If they did leave early and missed Truly and Baker then they must have really been going. And in three inch heels at at that. Oswald wouldn't have had to sneak past Garner because he would have already passed by before she went back into that area. With the speedsters in their three inch heeled shoes clop clop clopping on the wooden stairs, Oswald was able to follow behind, with any noise that he may have been making being drowned out by that of the speedsters.
3) There responses were not recorded, so if they were asked, are you saying the information was suppressed or just counted as unimportant. The positions were accounted for at the time of the shooting but not in the 2 minutes that followed. The crucial window where any shooter from the 6th would need to descend.
The information was counted as unimportant. I seem to recall Garner saying that she was the first to go to the back after Adams and Styles had left.
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Dougherty was reliable enough to fill orders and check the fire alarm each morning.
Mr. BALL - Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh---shipping clerk.
Mr. BALL - And what kind of work is that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the---they are orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and outside of doing little odd jobs besides that---that's it.
Mr. BALL - What time did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I got there---it was after 7 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. BALL - Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the men get there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say, I have a little---extra chores to do.
Mr. BALL - You do that--you get there at 7 all the time, don't you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years.
Mr. BALL - That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And you did get there about 7 that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra chores--what are those extra chores?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. In other words, the air pressure is up to where---up to 40 pounds so that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call me.
Mr. BALL - What is the ADT?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's that---I don't know too much about it---it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there.
Mr. BALL - You mean the pressure, do you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes
Mr. BALL - Is that a fire-alarm system?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--you could call it that.
Mr. BALL - Now, what else do you do there early in the morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is no leaks ,in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere.
Mr. BALL - Anything else you do?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No; I believe that just about covers it.
I believe he became "more confused" or distressed after the shooting (comment from Truly) and possible "less reliable".
His was quite specific about his position at the time he heard the rifle shot.
Mr. BALL - Tell me this---when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--- that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me exactly where you were?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator---the west side of the elevator.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y24yv15/dougherty.jpg)
Here is a picture that you can use as a reference.
(https://i.ibb.co/9cc80zk/E470-E166-A43-B-4-BB3-BF69-FAC063-DF858-D.jpg)
Was Dougherty retrieving stock from the boxes to the left of the picture? As the elevator gates were left open at this time, one assumes he was not far from the only elevator that could be "called" at that time. The east elevator was on the same floor. Dougherty was assumed to have moved the west elevator by the time Baker and Truly arrived. Where did it go?
(https://i.ibb.co/HDvjBrj/FAEBE943-5-B5-D-40-F2-B16-B-62698967-D1-A0.png)
Another inconvenience that needed to be clarified, Williams also not very reliable after the shooting it seems. Must have been confused or misunderstood by the FBI. Easy mistake to make.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
............................
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.
...............................
Mr. BALL - Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - In the domino room.
Mr. BALL - Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, at 12:30.
.................................
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - About what time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.
Mr. BALL - Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.
Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.
(http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/emb/t1816.gif) (http://yoursmiles.org/t-emb.php)
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Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
............................
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.
...............................
Mr. BALL - Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - In the domino room.
Mr. BALL - Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, at 12:30.
.................................
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - About what time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.
Mr. BALL - Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.
Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.
(http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/emb/t1816.gif) (http://yoursmiles.org/t-emb.php)
So we can't be confident that Mr Dougherty brought down the west elevator just after the assassination?
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You are right. There were only four women in that office.Hollies and Foster were in another room.
They were in the supply room on the southwest corner which had a cage north wall. They would have had a view of the staircase.
Styles was adamant that they never left right away. No less than a minute she said.
Any particular reason to prefer Styles over Adams?
With the speedsters in their three inch heeled shoes clop clop clopping on the wooden stairs, Oswald was able to follow behind, with any noise that he may have been making being drowned out by that of the speedsters.
Any good reason to think they ?drowned out? anything, or is it just a convenient excuse?
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They were in the supply room on the southwest corner which had a cage north wall. They would have had a view of the staircase.
Any particular reason to prefer Styles over Adams?
Any good reason to think they ?drowned out? anything, or is it just a convenient excuse?
Tell us what you would do if you wanted to descend a staircase undetected and heard someone else's footsteps on said staircase.
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Did Dougherty have a hearing issue? Those that do can often mistaken for being confused or of low intelligence.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
If Dougherty misheard the question as.....Did you ever leave the State during the War?
his answer becomes reasonable
............................
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.
Are you questioning Ball's intelligence or Dougherty's, there are 60 minutes in a full hour? Dougherty was merely explaining what he usually did.
...............................
Mr. BALL - Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - In the domino room.
Mr. BALL - Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, at 12:30.
He is relating when he went back to work that day.
.................................
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - About what time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.
Dougherty had gone to the 6th floor just before 12.30 to continue work. He heard a shot and went down to the first floor. He then went back to work upstairs. He was spotted on the 5th floor by Truly who was coming down from the 7th floor with Baker. This would have been about 10 minutes after the shooting. Perhaps Dougherty is talking about the second occasion he visited the 6th floor. in any event it is only an approximation.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.
See above
Mr. BALL - Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.
I wonder if Dougherty heard this as "Now, When you left for lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work? He merely informs that when he went down to lunch he left from the 5th floor.
Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---
Now he gets back to the original theme......his position at the time of the noise he heard.
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.
Let's move a couple of question marks......
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch?
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.
Who knows, maybe he thought it was an instruction. Do you doubt Dougherty was close to the 5th floor west elevator at the time of the shots? Do you believe it was he who moved the elevator from the 5th floor some time after Truly called for it and the time he arrived on the 5th floor? This would have been between 1 and about 4 minutes after the shots.
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Tim,
Styles was not adamant, she was most varied of the three woman we have record.
Adams maintains an almost instant departure and is consistent and adamant.
Garner says they left before she noticed and she immediately followed them heard them descending on the stairs and then sees T&B coming up. Inferring a very early leaving by A&S unless you want a much latter ascent by T&B and Reid.
Even Dorman gives an sense o urgency to her departure and as I said describe her following Garner with the word "run".
Styles gives varied vague estimates, almost wanting to agree with whatever anyone suggest to her.
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Tim,
Styles was not adamant, she was most varied of the three woman we have record.
Adams maintains an almost instant departure and is consistent and adamant.
Garner says they left before she noticed and she immediately followed them heard them descending on the stairs and then sees T&B coming up. Inferring a very early leaving by A&S unless you want a much latter ascent by T&B and Reid.
Even Dorman gives an sense o urgency to her departure and as I said describe her following Garner with the word "run".
Styles gives varied vague estimates, almost wanting to agree with whatever anyone suggest to her.
According to the account given by Sean Murphy, Styles thought that they had left quite a bit later than Adams' recalled. Styles went on to give up on some of that time but then finished with "no less than a minute". Adams seems to have been a bit unstable. Her signed and notated deposition speaks for itself though. The encounter with Lovelady and Shelley rules out an early descent.
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Did Dougherty have a hearing issue? Those that do can often mistaken for being confused or of low intelligence.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
If Dougherty misheard the question as.....Did you ever leave the State during the War?
his answer becomes reasonable
............................
Mr. BALL - And how long do you take for lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, from 12 to 12:45.
Mr. BALL - Forty-five minutes?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Do you always take a full hour?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; I usually do.
Are you questioning Ball's intelligence or Dougherty's, there are 60 minutes in a full hour? Dougherty was merely explaining what he usually did.
...............................
Mr. BALL - Where did you eat your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - In the domino room.
Mr. BALL - Now, what time did you go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, at 12:30.
He is relating when he went back to work that day.
.................................
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then, I went back to work.
Mr. BALL - And where did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let me see---oh, up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL - Did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - About what time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - At about 12:40---it was about 12:40.
Dougherty had gone to the 6th floor just before 12.30 to continue work. He heard a shot and went down to the first floor. He then went back to work upstairs. He was spotted on the 5th floor by Truly who was coming down from the 7th floor with Baker. This would have been about 10 minutes after the shooting. Perhaps Dougherty is talking about the second occasion he visited the 6th floor. in any event it is only an approximation.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard any shots before that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes---I heard one---it sounded like a backfire.
See above
Mr. BALL - Where were you when you heard that shot?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I was on the fifth floor.
Mr. BALL - You were on the fifth floor?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Now, When you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went on the fifth floor when I was getting ready to go down to eat lunch.
I wonder if Dougherty heard this as "Now, When you left for lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work? He merely informs that when he went down to lunch he left from the 5th floor.
Mr. BALL - Yes; and then what happened?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at that time--I was about 10 feet away---
Now he gets back to the original theme......his position at the time of the noise he heard.
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch.
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.
Let's move a couple of question marks......
Mr. BALL - Wait a minute---did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Before---before I ate my lunch?
Mr. BALL - You heard shots before you ate your lunch.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see---yes, I believe I did.
Who knows, maybe he thought it was an instruction. Do you doubt Dougherty was close to the 5th floor west elevator at the time of the shots? Do you believe it was he who moved the elevator from the 5th floor some time after Truly called for it and the time he arrived on the 5th floor? This would have been between 1 and about 4 minutes after the shots.
Why even bother?
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So we can't be confident that Mr Dougherty brought down the west elevator just after the assassination?
I would say no.
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Why even bother?
Do you mean as a comment in addressing my original post? If so you didn't.
If it was a comment relating to the original investigation, they didn't.
We are left with the situation that either Dougherty moved the elevator or an unknown did, someone who was not an employee or an accused assassin.
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What other testimony of an early descent?
You are right. There were only four women in that office.Hollies and Foster were in another room.
Styles was adamant that they never left right away. No less than a minute she said. If they did leave early and missed Truly and Baker then they must have really been going. And in three inch heels at at that. Oswald wouldn't have had to sneak past Garner because he would have already passed by before she went back into that area. With the speedsters in their three inch heeled shoes clop clop clopping on the wooden stairs, Oswald was able to follow behind, with any noise that he may have been making being drowned out by that of the speedsters.
The information was counted as unimportant. I seem to recall Garner saying that she was the first to go to the back after Adams and Styles had left.
Styles was adamant that they never left right away. No less than a minute she said. If they did leave early and missed Truly and Baker then they must have really been going. And in three inch heels at at that. Oswald wouldn't have had to sneak past Garner because he would have already passed by before she went back into that area. With the speedsters in their three inch heeled shoes clop clop clopping on the wooden stairs, Oswald was able to follow behind, with any noise that he may have been making being drowned out by that of the speedsters.
The problem with this is that Baker said as he arrived on the 2nd floor he saw movement through the window in the door and stopped to investigate. This movement, according to the tale, was Oswald going into the lunchroom. Truly however had already nearly reached the third floor when he noticed Baker wasn't following and he turned around. If Adams and Styles had been behind Oswald, Truly would have had to bump into to them on the stairs. He didn't.
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They were in the supply room on the southwest corner which had a cage north wall. They would have had a view of the staircase.
Any particular reason to prefer Styles over Adams?
Any good reason to think they ?drowned out? anything, or is it just a convenient excuse?
John,
The other to consider is that the people in the supply store may have also noticed Garner arrive in the area just to to the north of them, but no one asked them.
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They were in the supply room on the southwest corner which had a cage north wall. They would have had a view of the staircase.
Do you have any photos?
All I could find is the floor plan which shows that the supply room is quite a distance away and in addition the other side was a storage area.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85FtLhB2/tsbd-4th-floor.jpg)
Here's a view of the staircase from the 6th floor, OHS be buggered!
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/6/6a/Photo_wcd81-1_0127.jpg)
And some more "storages spaces" on other floors.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/c/cb/Photo_wcd496_0019.jpg)
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/c/c8/Photo_wcd87_0015.jpg)
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f7/Photo_wcd496_0044.jpg)
JohnM
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Do you have any photos?
All I could find is the floor plan which shows that the supply room is quite a distance away and in addition the other side was a storage area.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85FtLhB2/tsbd-4th-floor.jpg)
Here's a view of the staircase from the 6th floor, OHS be buggered!
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/6/6a/Photo_wcd81-1_0127.jpg)
And some more "storages spaces" on other floors.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/c/cb/Photo_wcd496_0019.jpg)
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/c/c8/Photo_wcd87_0015.jpg)
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/f/f7/Photo_wcd496_0044.jpg)
JohnM
I am sure you can show more photos of store rooms, but as long as they are not of the store room on the 4th floor those pics are meaningless
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I am sure you can show more photos of store rooms, but as long as they are not of the store room on the 4th floor those pics are meaningless
Why so confrontational, just relax and let's think this through.
I already stated that I don't have any photos of the fourth floor and simply asked if John had any.
But what we do have is photos of the other storage areas on the first, fifth and sixth floors and what these show is how they repeatedly utilized their space demonstrating a consistent behaviour and is fair way to determine the possibilities on the 4th floor.
JohnM
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Why so confrontational, just relax and let's think this through.
I already stated that I don't have any photos of the fourth floor and simply asked if John had any.
But what we do have is photos of the other storage areas on the first, fifth and sixth floors and what these show is how they repeatedly utilized their space demonstrating a consistent behaviour and is fair way to determine the possibilities on the 4th floor.
JohnM
Why are you being so sanctimonious, when it is obvious what you were trying to do?
The fact remains that you have zero evidence that the vision to the stairs was somehow blocked, which is exactly you were trying to imply?. and failed.
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Do you have any photos?
I don?t. But I think it?s curious that no photos were taken of 3 and 4.
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Dougherty was reliable enough to fill orders and check the fire alarm each morning.
Mr. BALL - Now, what kind of work have you been doing at the Texas School Book Depository in the last few years?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh---shipping clerk.
Mr. BALL - And what kind of work is that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, that's when they bring the orders from on the second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the---they are orders, I guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and outside of doing little odd jobs besides that---that's it.
Mr. BALL - What time did you go to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I got there---it was after 7 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. BALL - Do you usually get there in the morning at 7 o'clock?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Why do you get there at 7 instead of 8, when the rest of the men get there?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say, I have a little---extra chores to do.
Mr. BALL - You do that--you get there at 7 all the time, don't you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I've been doing it for 11 years.
Mr. BALL - That's what Mr. Truly told me, that you get there real early.
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - And you did get there about 7 that morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Let's see, Mr. Dougherty, you said that you have some extra chores--what are those extra chores?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. In other words, the air pressure is up to where---up to 40 pounds so that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the ADT runs that alarm system, and we immediately call Mr. Truly and of course they call me.
Mr. BALL - What is the ADT?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's that---I don't know too much about it---it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there.
Mr. BALL - You mean the pressure, do you?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes
Mr. BALL - Is that a fire-alarm system?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--you could call it that.
Mr. BALL - Now, what else do you do there early in the morning?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, let's see, I have to check and see that there is no leaks ,in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere.
Mr. BALL - Anything else you do?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No; I believe that just about covers it.
I believe he became "more confused" or distressed after the shooting (comment from Truly) and possible "less reliable".
His was quite specific about his position at the time he heard the rifle shot.
Mr. BALL - Tell me this---when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--- that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor-tell me exactly where you were?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was about 10 feet from the west elevator---the west side of the elevator.
(https://i.ibb.co/Y24yv15/dougherty.jpg)
Here is a picture that you can use as a reference.
(https://i.ibb.co/9cc80zk/E470-E166-A43-B-4-BB3-BF69-FAC063-DF858-D.jpg)
Was Dougherty retrieving stock from the boxes to the left of the picture? As the elevator gates were left open at this time, one assumes he was not far from the only elevator that could be "called" at that time. The east elevator was on the same floor. Dougherty was assumed to have moved the west elevator by the time Baker and Truly arrived. Where did it go?
(https://i.ibb.co/HDvjBrj/FAEBE943-5-B5-D-40-F2-B16-B-62698967-D1-A0.png)
Another inconvenience that needed to be clarified, Williams also not very reliable after the shooting it seems. Must have been confused or misunderstood by the FBI. Easy mistake to make.
We do have a photo of the 5th floor, where Dougherty claimed to be at the time he heard a noise. Can't seem to find any reference to him in any recreation. Then again we can simply ignore him entirely because of his "mental issues". If only as much effort was put into questioning him about his movements immediately after the shots as his observation of Oswald entering the TSBD that morning we might know more.
I see no response to Williams interview by the FBI on the 23rd about observing the stairs after the shots. Was he merely confused (again, and not for the last time), or the FBI simply got this crucial piece of information completely wrong?
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Styles was adamant that they never left right away. No less than a minute she said. If they did leave early and missed Truly and Baker then they must have really been going. And in three inch heels at at that. Oswald wouldn't have had to sneak past Garner because he would have already passed by before she went back into that area. With the speedsters in their three inch heeled shoes clop clop clopping on the wooden stairs, Oswald was able to follow behind, with any noise that he may have been making being drowned out by that of the speedsters.
The problem with this is that Baker said as he arrived on the 2nd floor he saw movement through the window in the door and stopped to investigate. This movement, according to the tale, was Oswald going into the lunchroom. Truly however had already nearly reached the third floor when he noticed Baker wasn't following and he turned around. If Adams and Styles had been behind Oswald, Truly would have had to bump into to them on the stairs. He didn't.
Martin, I pretty sure that we already went over that some time ago. It's possible that Oswald had stepped just inside the door to the vestibule leading to the lunchroom proper and stopped there until seeing the police officer pop into view. On an early descent, Adams and Styles would have been ahead of Oswald, not behind him.
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I am sure you can show more photos of store rooms, but as long as they are not of the store room on the 4th floor those pics are meaningless
Unless someone can show a photo of the view from the fourth floor stock room facing towards the stairwell, then the claim that Hollies and Foster had a clear view of the entrance to the stairs is meaningless.
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Martin, I pretty sure that we already went over that some time ago. It's possible that Oswald had stepped just inside the door to the vestibule leading to the lunchroom proper and stopped there until seeing the police officer pop into view. On an early descent, Adams and Styles would have been ahead of Oswald, not behind him.
In this scenario Adams and Styles had to have been out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker were approaching the Elevators.
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Why are you being so sanctimonious, when it is obvious what you were trying to do?
The fact remains that you have zero evidence that the vision to the stairs was somehow blocked, which is exactly you were trying to imply?. and failed.
Here's some other floors in the same building, showing what looks like a typical warehouse that puts stuff wherever they can, because that is the basic function of these warehouses, you know to store stuff, that is all except the fourth floor which was filled with glass boxes full of glass.
Crimes are solved by following patterns.
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/2/28/Photo_wcd496_0011.jpg)
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/3/36/Photo_wcd496_0005.jpg)
(https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/a/ab/Photo_wcd81-1_0145.jpg)
JohnM
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In this scenario Adams and Styles had to have been out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker were approaching the Elevators.
That is correct. They were something else weren't they?
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Unless someone can show a photo of the view from the fourth floor stock room facing towards the stairwell, then the claim that Hollies and Foster had a clear view of the entrance to the stairs is meaningless.
Tim,
I'd agree that just don't know what they may or not have seen and it appears that we will never know, due to the lack of pictures of the 4th floor and more importantly the negligent failure of the investigations to question the people.
Did the staff in the SW room see T&B? Did they see Garner? We just do not know.
Just as no one asked Dorman, if she knew when Adams and Styles left.
Back to my original post, you have a suspect that you believed traversed a precise path, within a narrow period of time. Confirming that the path was clear to be traversed should have been the next priority after confirming the path and the timings.
It wasn't a hard task, just ask each of the know people between the 2nd and 6th, if they were in a position to the view the stairs. Explain to me why that isn't a reasonable step for a half competent investigation to have undertaken.
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Tim,
I'd agree that just don't know what they may or not have seen and it appears that we will never know, due to the lack of pictures of the 4th floor and more importantly the negligent failure of the investigations to question the people.
Did the staff in the SW room see T&B? Did they see Garner? We just do not know.
Just as no one asked Dorman, if she knew when Adams and Styles left.
Back to my original post, you have a suspect that you believed traversed a precise path, within a narrow period of time. Confirming that the path was clear to be traversed should have been the next priority after confirming the path and the timings.
It wasn't a hard task, just ask each of the know people between the 2nd and 6th, if they were in a position to the view the stairs. Explain to me why that isn't a reasonable step for a half competent investigation to have undertaken.
It wasn't an unreasonable step for a competent investigation to have undertaken. Whether it was undertaken or not I cannot say. If they did , i'm not aware of any publication of the results. There's nothing we can do about it. We can only work with what we've got. I realize that doesn't work very well from the CT perspective but it is what it is. CTs tend to what to avoid or dismiss what we have available to us and instead focus on things that they think that we should have.
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Tim,
I don't see myself as a CT, I don't believe in any conspiracy theories.
I just think that there are sizeable gaps in the evidence that the investigation should have cleared up.
I think it very unlikely that they asked about viewing the stairs and this information has been hidden and not revealed in any report, that would in fact be believing a CT (albeit a post shooting CT). I tend to not blame on malice what is explainable as negligence.
1) As per this tread, the failure to confirm that the path was clear to traverse, especially once they knew of Adams (and Garner's, if Stroud doc is genuine) testimony.
2) That they left Hine and Reid with contradictory testimonies, especially given the use of Reid in confirming Oswald's path and timing. Hine testifies to returning an empty office area, and seeing Reid reenter with others. Reid enters by herself and makes no mention of Hine. Reid was the senior staff member, who left Hine to cover for her staff on the phones, I find it personally incredible that her first action on re-entry was not to find Hine (who had volunteered to cover other staffs role) and inform her what had happened. Your in charge, you leave someone to cover for your team, you've just seen the President shot, the staff you left is absent but she doesn't seem to be the least bit concerned. Each of them should have been challenged with the others story, as it seems implausible that they both be true.
I won't go rehash all the other not fully explored issues but these two bug me, as they could and should have been resolved.
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Since the fastest probable time for a shooter from 6th floor SE window of the TSBD whom had to wipe prints off, after slowly withdrawing rifle, and squeezing out of cramped SN, cross 180ft to boxes and wedge rifle in a narrow gap, is probably at least 30 sec post shots..
and since the fastest probable descent time per floor going down is approx. 10sec/floor
then its going to take the shooter at least 53 secs post shots to be completely past the 4th floor landing and halfway down the 4th floor staircase to be out of LOS of anyone who was standing with LOS to the staircase earlier than 53 sec post shots.
The question is, if Dorothy Garner would have waited 53 sec after having seen Adams and Styles leave the office window and go out the door, before following them out herself. And how probable is it that Garner would remember a 53 sec delay as having followed "almost immediately" and "right behind" A&S?
This might be resolve more definitively if Mrs Garner could elaborate on exactly what she "heard" when she told Barry Ernest about having "heard them" on the staircase, as opposed to having actually seen A&S, as the original statement in the Belin memo described.
IF Garner heard voices, its not very probable to have emerged at 53 sec posts shots and then it takes another 10 sec to travel to the staircase west window, such that Garner would have heard voices at 63 sec post shots. V.Adams and Styles would on the 1st floor then, and very probably just exiting the rollup door right beside the west elevator. Could their voices at normal decibel range have carried up the open elevator shaft as far as the 4th floor?
IDK!? Its apparent that SHOUTING down the elevator shaft from 5th or 6th floor can be heard by people on the elevator going down the shaft as per Oswald haveing been heard.
But Truly shouted UP the elevator shaft at about 70 sec post shots, and no one seems to have heard that, including Jack Dougherty who was only 10 ft away from the shaft according to JD.
So IDK if it can be 100% ruled out as impossible that Garner could have heard the voices of V.Adams and Styles as they reached the ground floor at approx 60 sec post shots as they were going past the west elevator open shaft, which was open all the way to the 4th floor, since both elevators were fixed on the 5th floor at that time, via by Truly seeing them at 70 sec post shots.
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In this scenario Adams and Styles had to have been out of the TSBD before Truly and Baker were approaching the Elevators.
Do you see any other alternative, Colin. For Tim's/LNs later time, for Dorothy Garner to see Baker and Truly "coming up" the staircase only after A&S have been seen "heard" going down the staircase, the time would have been at least 6 min post shots, after Baker and Truly came down from the roof of the TSBD using the EAST elevator. The East elevator has a solid back, so the only way to see anyone on the elevator from the 4th floor office would be from the exit door nearest the passenger elevator. Dorothy Garner, however, supposedly went to stand near the rear staircase and was looking out the WEST window nearby the staircase. So from that angle, could NOT have seen anyone on the EAST elevator whom remained IN the elevator, as did Baker and Truly. They did NOT exit, as I remember.
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Tim,
I don't see myself as a CT, I don't believe in any conspiracy theories.
I just think that there are sizeable gaps in the evidence that the investigation should have cleared up.
I think it very unlikely that they asked about viewing the stairs and this information has been hidden and not revealed in any report, that would in fact be believing a CT (albeit a post shooting CT). I tend to not blame on malice what is explainable as negligence.
1) As per this tread, the failure to confirm that the path was clear to traverse, especially once they knew of Adams (and Garner's, if Stroud doc is genuine) testimony.
2) That they left Hine and Reid with contradictory testimonies, especially given the use of Reid in confirming Oswald's path and timing. Hine testifies to returning an empty office area, and seeing Reid reenter with others. Reid enters by herself and makes no mention of Hine. Reid was the senior staff member, who left Hine to cover for her staff on the phones, I find it personally incredible that her first action on re-entry was not to find Hine (who had volunteered to cover other staffs role) and inform her what had happened. Your in charge, you leave someone to cover for your team, you've just seen the President shot, the staff you left is absent but she doesn't seem to be the least bit concerned. Each of them should have been challenged with the others story, as it seems implausible that they both be true.
I won't go rehash all the other not fully explored issues but these two bug me, as they could and should have been resolved.
Anthony, I apologize if I offended you with my use of the CT label. It's a term that I apply with a wide brush. One that often covers those who don't actually have a theory of their own but who just question the primary conclusion of the Warren Commission.
For now, I just want to address the part of your post that I've bolded. Hines' testimony may appear to conflict with Reid's but there are a couple of parts of her testimony that you have overlooked or left out.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.
Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it and so I was busy with the phone.
...............................
Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.
Her testimony is rather contradictory in itself don't you think?
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Do you see any other alternative, Colin. For Tim's/LNs later time, for Dorothy Garner to see Baker and Truly "coming up" the staircase only after A&S have been seen "heard" going down the staircase, the time would have been at least 6 min post shots, after Baker and Truly came down from the roof of the TSBD using the EAST elevator. The East elevator has a solid back, so the only way to see anyone on the elevator from the 4th floor office would be from the exit door nearest the passenger elevator. Dorothy Garner, however, supposedly went to stand near the rear staircase and was looking out the WEST window nearby the staircase. So from that angle, could NOT have seen anyone on the EAST elevator whom remained IN the elevator, as did Baker and Truly. They did NOT exit, as I remember.
Don't think women at west windows on 4th floor could see through to east elevator. Seem to remember a solid back would prevent that. Bah....now I am going to have to check if Sawyer interacted with Baker and Truly when they were descending on the elevator.....I seem to remember something like that occurred. I have a timeline for Sawyer back at front of TSBD after returning from 4th floor.
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Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.
Her testimony is rather contradictory in itself don't you think?
It seems to be. Perhaps it was Mrs. Carol Reed that she saw?
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Martin, I pretty sure that we already went over that some time ago. It's possible that Oswald had stepped just inside the door to the vestibule leading to the lunchroom proper and stopped there until seeing the police officer pop into view. On an early descent, Adams and Styles would have been ahead of Oswald, not behind him.
But you said earlier;
"Oswald was able to follow behind"
which is what I responded to.
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Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?
Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.
Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it and so I was busy with the phone.
Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.
Mr. BALL. Miss Hine, this will be written up and it will be submitted for your signature if you wish, or you can waive signature right now; which do you prefer? Do you have any choice?
Miss HINE. Well, I would prefer to see it.
Maybe Hine was unsure or maybe she felt she shouldn't be asserting her direct boss was lieing.
The office space was not large. Keep in mind that she describes the desk she was sitting as "front row middle" and facing away from the rear door Oswald entered in by, and so it was facing the entrace to that area. Also to get into the office area you had to walk along past the counter, traversing most of the office space from south to north before entering.
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Maybe Hine was unsure or maybe she felt she shouldn't be asserting her direct boss was lieing.
The office space was not large. Keep in mind that she describes the desk she was sitting as "front row middle" and facing away from the rear door Oswald entered in by, and so it was facing the entrace to that area. Also to get into the office area you had to walk along past the counter, traversing most of the office space from south to north before entering.
Thumb1:
And remember: Ms Hine urgently wanted to find out what the hell had happened outside. Had she seen Ms Reid she would been on her in a flash, looking for information. It never happened, because Ms Reid wasn't up there when she says she was.
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Mr. BALL. When you came back in did you see Mrs. Reid?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I don't believe there was a soul in the office when I came back in right then.
Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody else go in through there?
Miss HINE. No, sir; after I answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in.
Mr. BALL. Was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone?
Miss HINE. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mrs. Reid come back in?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I think I felt sure that I did. I thought that there were five or six that came in together. I thought she was one of those.
Mr. BALL. Mrs. Reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there.
Miss HINE. Well, it could be that she did, sir. I was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. Everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "The next one that was clear, I have to have it and so I was busy with the phone.
Mr. BALL. From the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald come in?
Miss HINE. My back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at.
Mr. BALL. Were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you recall seeing him?
Miss HINE. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Do you have any definite recollection of Mrs. Reid coming in?
Miss HINE. No, sir; I only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember their names?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Who were they?
Miss HINE. Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina (spelling), Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell; that's all I recall, sir.
Mr. BALL. Miss Hine, this will be written up and it will be submitted for your signature if you wish, or you can waive signature right now; which do you prefer? Do you have any choice?
Miss HINE. Well, I would prefer to see it.
Maybe Hine was unsure or maybe she felt she shouldn't be asserting her direct boss was lieing.
The office space was not large. Keep in mind that she describes the desk she was sitting as "front row middle" and facing away from the rear door Oswald entered in by, and so it was facing the entrace to that area. Also to get into the office area you had to walk along past the counter, traversing most of the office space from south to north before entering.
Regardless of whether the office space was large or not, Miss Hine was not in that office for some time after the shooting. Read her full deposition.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hine.htm
(https://i.imgur.com/dFzy9cr.jpg)
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Hine did a loop around the south and west corridor, then walked back toward the counter and in the middle centre desk, looking at entrance through which everyone normally re-entered and through which both Reid said she entered and Oswald left. They both have to pass within feet of her, right across her line of sight. Of course you could have Reid meet Oswald and then follow Oswald back out the front, to then reenter from the front.
They could have asked her how long she was away from her desk? (Her testimony on face value would tend to less than around 2 minutes to cover the actions she reported performing)
They could have included her in the timed trials? (Along with Adams and Styles)
(Oddly **cough cough** they only choose to time Baker and Reid not anyone that might throw out their timeline.)
They could have asked the people she thought Reid had re-entered with, if Reid had re-entered with them? (Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina , Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell)
They could have asked Reid if she left the area after seeing Oswald?
So many way to clear it up, so many ways they could have passed down to us a resolved situation. No, they choose to go with a maybe your mistaken about seeing Reid reenter with others but didn't set out to sort how how Reid and Hines fail to see each other.
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Hine did a loop around the south and west corridor, then walked back toward the counter and in the middle centre desk, looking at entrance through which everyone normally re-entered and through which both Reid said she entered and Oswald left. They both have to pass within feet of her, right across her line of sight. Of course you could have Reid meet Oswald and then follow Oswald back out the front, to then reenter from the front.
They could have asked her how long she was away from her desk? (Her testimony on face value would tend to less than around 2 minutes to cover the actions she reported performing)
They could have included her in the timed trials? (Along with Adams and Styles)
(Oddly **cough cough** they only choose to time Baker and Reid not anyone that might throw out their timeline.)
They could have asked the people she thought Reid had re-entered with, if Reid had re-entered with them? (Mr. Williams, Mr. Molina , Miss Martha Reid, Mrs. Sarah Stanton, and Mr. Campbell)
They could have asked Reid if she left the area after seeing Oswald?
So many way to clear it up, so many ways they could have passed down to us a resolved situation. No, they choose to go with a maybe your mistaken about seeing Reid reenter with others but didn't set out to sort how how Reid and Hines fail to see each other.
Reid and Oswald could have both passed the hallway that runs parallel with the front of the building while Miss Hine was banging on the door to the South Western Publishing Co. office. They would not have been in her line of sight unless she was facing the east.
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Tim,
Remember she watched the parade from the front south east window, then she checked one door, banged on the next door, and then headed back up a corridor that if Oswald crossed she would be looking straight at him.
Her actual path around the corridor when she wasn't in a position to see Oswald cross was only part of one side of the building, with 1 door check and 1 door banging.
the walking part was likely under 10s, so she must have gone overboard on the door banging for your time frame to work.
Oswald would have to cross the corridor top part of the corridor after the 2nd floor lunch room encounter at around 100s to 120s past the shooting.
You also have to have Reid pass Oswald, go to her desk, watch him leave the area and then either leave again (un-testified exit, involving going around the counter etc) or have the both her Hine not see each other as Hine is crossing half the room back to front centre desk, where the phones were flashing.
Also Reid, the senior office staff, comes in and ignores the unmanned phone desk (that her staff are responsible for) with flashing calls that Hine sees from across the room and hurries back to.
Of course again my question in my previous past could have solved these issues, but they weren't asked.
Again why not have her time trial? Why not ask the people she said entered with Reid?
Two people say they both entered an empty office space? Hine testifies to scurrying back to answer the phone across the office to the front desks. I can dream up ways to squeeze the data to make sense but as they say here, "they wouldn't pass the pub test".
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Tim,
Remember she watched the parade from the front south east window, then she checked one door, banged on the next door, and then headed back up a corridor that if Oswald crossed she would be looking straight at him.
Her actual path around the corridor when she wasn't in a position to see Oswald cross was only part of one side of the building, with 1 door check and 1 door banging.
the walking part was likely under 10s, so she must have gone overboard on the door banging for your time frame to work.
Oswald would have to cross the corridor top part of the corridor after the 2nd floor lunch room encounter at around 100s to 120s past the shooting.
You also have to have Reid pass Oswald, go to her desk, watch him leave the area and then either leave again (un-testified exit, involving going around the counter etc) or have the both her Hine not see each other as Hine is crossing half the room back to front centre desk, where the phones were flashing.
Also Reid, the senior office staff, comes in and ignores the unmanned phone desk (that her staff are responsible for) with flashing calls that Hine sees from across the room and hurries back to.
Of course again my question in my previous past could have solved these issues, but they weren't asked.
Again why not have her time trial? Why not ask the people she said entered with Reid?
Two people say they both entered an empty office space? Hine testifies to scurrying back to answer the phone across the office to the front desks. I can dream up ways to squeeze the data to make sense but as they say here, "they wouldn't pass the pub test".
She watched the parade from a window on the east side of the building. It was facing Houston street not Elm. There are numerous possibilities with the timing of the three of them were after that. Hine may have been making her way down the hallway toward the South Western Publishing Co office when Reid passed by behind her. Reid would have then entered the empty office and then encountered Oswald on his way through. Who knows what Reid did immediately after. She may have left the office for some other part of the floor. Oswald could have passed the hallway while Hines was at the South Western office door or when she was in the hallway leading to the back of the building.
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She watched the parade from a window on the east side of the building. It was facing Houston street not Elm. There are numerous possibilities with the timing of the three of them were after that. Hine may have been making her way down the hallway toward the South Western Publishing Co office when Reid passed by behind her. Reid would have then entered the empty office and then encountered Oswald on his way through. Who knows what Reid did immediately after. She may have left the office for some other part of the floor. Oswald could have passed the hallway while Hines was at the South Western office door or when she was in the hallway leading to the back of the building.
Tim, agreed it was the window eastern side, just before the closet. (The most southern window she could access).
Agreed there are numerous possibilties to explain it, al of which could have been confirmed with the points I have previously posted.
From Hines testimony, Ball seems to infer maybe you just didn't see Reid reenter when she did.
The far more difficult question is if Hine was in the office, how did Reid miss someone in the front center desk answering phone calls on behalf of her other staff. (Remember Hine was covering for other woman).
Of course having Hine out of the office when Reid reentered is an easier thing to explain, (but if Reid was first, why didn't she attend to the phones), which thy could have asked how long do you estimate you were out of the office? or done a renactment with her of her actions, or asked the people she said came in wih Reid, if Reid came in with them.
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Regardless of whether the office space was large or not, Miss Hine was not in that office for some time after the shooting. Read her full deposition.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hine.htm
(https://i.imgur.com/dFzy9cr.jpg)
I don't believe this "Oswald escape route"....I believe that after the encounter with Truly and Baker Lee returned to the Domimo room by way of the NW stairs.
I don't believe he went into the office area and encountered Mrs Reid......
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Why did not Dorothy Garner hear Roy Truly shout up at approx.70 sec posts shots from the ground floor at the rear elevator shaft, to send the elevator down?
Since the earliest time probable for Oswald or other shooter to have gone past the 4th floor landing, and down halfway the 1st leg of staircase going to 3rd floor, so as to be completely out of LOS, is approx. 53 sec post shots, then Dorothy Garner can not exit the office earlier or would have seen the shooter crossing the 4th floor landing.
But if Garner exited not until 53 sec post shots, then heard voices of V.Adams and Styles at a low decibel level, almost about to reach the ground floor, then why did Garner NOT hear the much higher decibel level of Mr Trulys voice SHOUTING UP the elevator shaft at 70 sec post shots?
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Zeon,
As best I can tell Garner was not near the lifts but nearer the windows on the west side.
however Dougherty who did claim to be near the lifts on the 5th did not hear Truly's call either.
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Zeon,
As best I can tell Garner was not near the lifts but nearer the windows on the west side.
however Dougherty who did claim to be near the lifts on the 5th did not hear Truly's call either.
Thank you, Anthony for reinforcing my skepticism that voices of 2 women, at normal decibel level, on that TSBD L shaped rear staircase, could have been heard by Garner as far down as at ground level, ie: at 53 sec post shots. Therefore, it would appear for Garner to have heard Adams and Styles, would necessitate Garner must have exited office by about 35 to 40 seconds, just missing seeing Adams and Styles on the stairs, but not yet so distant that their voices could not be heard. This is one more reason to believe that Garner did in fact follow Adams and Styles "almost immediately" as Garner has stated.
If only an experiment could have been conducted in the TSBD while the orginal condition of floors and the L shaped staircase existed, then Garner could be the "proof positive" that precludes the WC theory of descent of Oswald using the staircase. Alas, this is probably the reason for keeping Mrs Garner from WC testimony and suppressing one document. Why they did not destroy the Belin memo, is unclear, but perhaps someone decided it was too risky to do, so hiding it in archives was better option.
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(https://i.ibb.co/pKh4kxf/16235-B7-A-AD14-4-DB2-904-C-4-E31-F95-C8503.jpg)
Mr. BELIN. There has been some-testimony here, Mr. Truly, about some bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. I am going to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 490, and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures were taken on the fifth floor? On Friday, March 20th?
The CHAIRMAN. The fifth floor?
Mr. BELIN. The fifth floor; yes, sir.
Mr. TRULY. Yes; I was, I believe. Some of them I may not have been when all of them were taken. I was not there when this picture was taken, no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you not?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. How long have those bins by the stairway been there?
Mr. TRULY. Well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been there, I suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly 2 years. They were there at the time of November 22.