JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Jake Maxwell on July 25, 2018, 05:05:51 PM
Title: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jake Maxwell on July 25, 2018, 05:05:51 PM
Abraham Zapruder's testimony to the WC gives strong support for a conspiracy. He says he thought the shots came from behind him... that the police running behind him thought the same... and there was an indication that there were two assassins....
Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing on this abutment facing Elm street, you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you and down the railroad track behind that, is that right?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. After the shots?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, yes.
...........................................
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; the FBI asked for the camera back because the Commission wanted to determine whether there was any difference in the frame speed as the camera unwound itself, as it went along.
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, they claimed they told me it was about 2 frames fast--instead of 16 it was 18 frames and they told me it was about 2 frames fast in the speed and they told me that the time between the 2 rapid shots, as I understand, that was determined--the length of time it took to the second one and that they were very fast and they claim it has proven it could be done by 1 man. You know there was indication there were two?
Mr. LIEBELER. Your films were extremely helpful to the work of the Commission, Mr. Zapruder.
[NOTE how Liebeler just cuts off the questioning and dismisses Zapruder when he mentions the possibility of two assassins!]
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jake Maxwell on July 25, 2018, 06:37:47 PM
Note that Zapruder is saying that the line of fire, which he thought was behind him, was confirmed by the fact that JFK was hit on the right side of his head... Again, Zapruder is testifying that the shot to Kennedy's head indicated that the line of fire was behind Zapruder...
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?
Mr. ZAPRUDER.No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, yes.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jake Maxwell on July 30, 2018, 01:40:02 AM
Why didn't the WC follow-up on Zapruder's testimony that the shots came from behind him and that there was an indication that there were two assassins?
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on July 30, 2018, 02:10:29 AM
What is also interesting about Zapruder is that he testified that he saw the first shot hit the President, his reaction to being hit. This means JFK was hit before he disappeared behind the road sign and is in line with the HSCA's conclusion that the first shot was fired around frame Z190. This rules out a shot fired from the 'sniper's nest,' as the view from that window was blocked by the live oak tree.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Steve Howsley on July 30, 2018, 11:19:32 AM
What is also interesting about Zapruder is that he testified that he saw the first shot hit the President, his reaction to being hit. This means JFK was hit before he disappeared behind the road sign and is in line with the HSCA's conclusion that the first shot was fired around frame Z190. This rules out a shot fired from the 'sniper's nest,' as the view from that window was blocked by the live oak tree.
If Z saw the POTUS get hit in the throat then he must have left his camera suspended in mid air as he dashed closer to the TSBD so that the sign didn't block his view as the bullet struck. If Z never left his camera then he saw what I saw and what you've seen which is the POTUS reacting to being hit as he emerges from behind the sign but NOT before he is obscured by that sign.
The tree is mentioned as a possible cause for the first shot to have missed with the second and third shots hitting the target. It's very straight forward.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Steve Barber on July 30, 2018, 03:21:21 PM
It never ceases to amaze me when people take someone's WC testimony and twist it into things that they actually think happened.
First of all, President Kennedy obviously was not hit circa Z frame 190. That nonsense came about because of the scam the HSCA tried to pull with the acoustics tests, which their entire case of conspiracy was based on. There are no gunshots recorded on the Dictabelt recording, which destroys their entire scenario.
Secondly, There are three sudden movements made by President Kennedy and Governor Connally. The first is when both the president and the governor did head snaps from left to right circa Z 155-161. The second at circa frames 223-240, and finally Z 313-328. There was no sudden motions on the part of the governor or president in any other sequences than these. Three shots, two hits, one miss.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Richard Smith on July 30, 2018, 04:06:33 PM
There were witnesses who saw a rifle in the 6th floor window an instance after the shots were fired and some CTers still take issue with an assassin firing from that location. And yet they selectively pick testimony of someone who says they were uncertain but thought the shots came from a certain location as proof of their conspiracy. It is hopeless.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Steve Barber on July 30, 2018, 04:54:23 PM
It's a "scam" to point out the numerous witnesses who identified the GK as the source of the shots. Good one. 🤣
I didn't say any such thing! I didn't say anything about witnesses (even though they were wrong because there was no assassin on the knoll) I am referring entirely to the acoustics, Caprio! That entire acoustics scenario was a scam, a lie and a bunch of hot air.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Steve Barber on July 30, 2018, 04:56:23 PM
There were witnesses who saw a rifle in the 6th floor window an instance after the shots were fired and some CTers still take issue with an assassin firing from that location. And yet they selectively pick testimony of someone who says they were uncertain but thought the shots came from a certain location as proof of their conspiracy. It is hopeless.
Precisely. That's their game. This entire fiasco is nothing but a game to these people.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Steve Barber on July 30, 2018, 06:52:32 PM
have you considered where the car is in relation to the window at that point? ..and how wide that window is open?
Certainly. Have you considered that Oswald was 61-plus feet high? And have you considered that he more than likely had tunnel vision and wasn't paying any attention to the tree foliage? Have you ever been on the sixth floor of that building?
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Steve Barber on July 30, 2018, 07:09:29 PM
There were witnesses who saw a rifle in the 6th floor window an instance after the shots were fired and some CTers still take issue with an assassin firing from that location.
Tell me again how just seeing some kind of projection sticking out of a window proves that it was a rifle that was just fired?
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on July 30, 2018, 08:41:43 PM
Everyone just continues to ignore Z329/330 where the real head shot comes in and you can see an unmistakable red smear over the President's head, his actual slumping right after and Jacqueline's instantaneous reaction to what has just taken place and wanting to leave the car through the back! I would call that frontal shot absolutely undeniable given the driver Greer's head going to the corner of the windshield and Kellerman ducking out simultaneously. If Zapruder shook his camera, it was in reaction to what he just saw and heard - not Z313 however which has no explanation other than a very slight frontal head movement of the POTUS!
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Joe Elliott on August 01, 2018, 03:56:01 AM
Abraham Zapruder's testimony to the WC gives strong support for a conspiracy. He says he thought the shots came from behind him... that the police running behind him thought the same... and there was an indication that there were two assassins....
Mr. LIEBELER. As you were standing on this abutment facing Elm street, you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you and down the railroad track behind that, is that right?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. After the shots?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes.
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, yes.
Mr. Zapurder?s comments imply that he thought the head wound he saw was an entrance wound. Of course, just a large wound could not have been an entrance wound, it was where the bullet exited the head. Indeed, it was technically an explosive wound, a large wound covering several square inches which occurred about 5 milliseconds after the formation of the much smaller exit wound (see Larry Sturdivan?s book The JFK Myths).
This was a natural mistake from a non ballistic expert. If that wound was an entry wound, then yes, the shooter would be somewhere behind Mr. Zapruder at z313.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Steve Taylor on August 01, 2018, 11:59:24 AM
Allan, very good post. I posted the following gif twice here over the years, but nobody commented. It can get lonely at times here, but I wanted you to know that I totally agree with your analysis. My gif was put up to show that additional shots came in at about 330, and that Connally was still holding his hat in his right hand up until then. After that, Connally's hand is forced rapidly down with his body quickly following. JC doesn't remember when his hand was injured.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 01, 2018, 03:36:10 PM
11 posts, including posts with non conforming quotes have just been deleted.
If you are replying to a post, make sure the quoted post conforms to the one space between text lines before you reply.
IOW... In replying to your post, I should be certain that I place a space between the lines of text?
For example in quoting Paul's post....
It was already known that it would not be right. But then the research had to be restarted again. space---------------- All those 26 Volumes in the bin can you can you imagine all that invested tax money in a hoax. Space------------ Explain to me how the shooter could do this from the SN at an angle of about 35 degrees to the target!
Yes there are some who tried that, like Mr. Holland an that former SS agent Howell or like Mr. Robert Cutler without boxes. Or like Mr. Pat Speer investigated those shots.
So keep on tuned.
They failed also, (Mr. Holland an that former SS agent Howell) if you look well at that documantery!
You always avoid my question of how and exactly from which place the shooter shot behind that window.
Like I showed you before a 35 degrees angle is not possible from that nest layout!!
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Royell Storing on August 01, 2018, 03:53:14 PM
IOW... In replying to your post, I should be certain that I place a space between the lines of text?
For example in quoting Paul's post....
It was already known that it would not be right. But then the research had to be restarted again. space---------------- All those 26 Volumes in the bin can you can you imagine all that invested tax money in a hoax. Space------------ Explain to me how the shooter could do this from the SN at an angle of about 35 degrees to the target!
Yes there are some who tried that, like Mr. Holland an that former SS agent Howell or like Mr. Robert Cutler without boxes. Or like Mr. Pat Speer investigated those shots.
So keep on tuned.
They failed also, (Mr. Holland an that former SS agent Howell) if you look well at that documantery!
You always avoid my question of how and exactly from which place the shooter shot behind that window.
Like I showed you before a 35 degrees angle is not possible from that nest layout!!
Saying "a 35 degrees angle is Not possible from that nest layout" would be incorrect. The physical position of the shooter needs to be taken into consideration. STANDING, sitting, kneeling, etc. Remember, there was an eyewitness, (forget who), that said something along the lines of someone in the sniper's nest/window "Standing DOWN".
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2018, 05:42:21 PM
Saying "a 35 degrees angle is Not possible from that nest layout" would be incorrect. The physical position of the shooter needs to be taken into consideration. STANDING, sitting, kneeling, etc. Remember, there was an eyewitness, (forget who), that said something along the lines of someone in the sniper's nest/window "Standing DOWN".
I recall someone (Brennan?) saying the shooter stepped or stood back or down after the last shot.
In a military context, to 'stand down' means to relax from a ready position... which the shooter did after the last shot, apparently. Seems the shooter was a trained military type... possibly a Marine? :)
stand down phrasal verb of stand 1. withdraw or resign from a position or office. "he stood down as leader of the party" 2. relax or cause to relax after a state of readiness. "if something doesn't happen soon, I guess they'll stand us down" synonyms: relax, stand easy, come off full alert "tell the troops to stand down" phrasal verb of stand 1. withdraw or resign from a position or office. "he stood down as leader of the party" 2. relax or cause to relax after a state of readiness. "if something doesn't happen soon, I guess they'll stand us down" synonyms: relax, stand easy, come off full alert "tell the troops to stand down"
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 01, 2018, 06:20:44 PM
The shooter proved Ernie wrong. He cut to the quick and used a rifle instead of diagrams.
:D
Yet another circular argument from the master.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Joffrey van de Wiel on August 01, 2018, 07:33:27 PM
The HSCA analyzed the Zapruder film with the following results:
1) First shot fired between Z-162 and Z-167. Governor Connally turns his head rapidly from his left to his right.
2) Second shot fired between Z-181 and Z-192. Impact on the limousine between Z-182 and Z-193. President abruptly stops in the midst of a wave and turns to his wife between Z-200 and Z-207. It is a response to a severe external stimulus, according to the report. By the time he emerges from behind the road sign at Z-225 it is clear he has been shot.
3) Third shot fired at Z-210 and impact on the President's head at Z-212.
But I think Tague testified that he was hit in the face with a bullet fragment or pieces of concrete after the second shot.
And I fail to understand how the assassin could have missed not only the President and the limousine but the entire street with his first and easiest shot (closest in range).
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 01, 2018, 07:42:55 PM
And your Proof of that statement would be what? Oswald was allegedly in a Seated position.
Try to follow along. Ernie challenged me as to where the shooter could be standing to make a shot. I have never said that the shooter had to be standing; and in fact was either sitting or kneeling in my opinion.
Now show me where I did anything other than make the observation that the angle from Brennan's position could make it seem as if the shooter was stepping back from that window.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 01, 2018, 10:00:12 PM
Try to follow along. Ernie challenged me as to where the shooter could be standing to make a shot. I have never said that the shooter had to be standing; and in fact was either sitting or kneeling in my opinion.
Any opinion on how the incredibly accurate and reliable Howard Brennan saw this guy from the belt up if he was sitting or kneeling at the time of the shot?
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 01, 2018, 10:11:50 PM
Steve Barber provided very solid arguments that the HSCA acoustic evidence ?proving? four shots, was highly flawed.
And I agree... I've always thought that it was really weird to embrace all this acoustic stuff and then ignore all the other umpteen dozen manifestations of conspiracy ::)
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Bill Chapman on August 01, 2018, 10:18:28 PM
Any opinion on how the incredibly accurate and reliable Howard Brennan saw this guy from the belt up if he was sitting or kneeling at the time of the shot?
Maybe the shooter had to hitch up his drawers to get that lo ???
He (your perennial unnamed shooter) was also aiming downrange and pulling the trigger at the time Are you sure Brennan didn't say 'about' the belt at some point in his testimony?
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 01, 2018, 10:31:39 PM
Is this the actual scale? Wow, Brennan had eagles eyes if he was able to recognize Oswald later in the line up, although at first he didn't because he was scared for his family. Is it true that there is no record of Brennan even attending a line-up?
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Royell Storing on August 01, 2018, 11:24:21 PM
Try to follow along. Ernie challenged me as to where the shooter could be standing to make a shot. I have never said that the shooter had to be standing; and in fact was either sitting or kneeling in my opinion.
Now show me where I did anything other than make the observation that the angle from Brennan's position could make it seem as if the shooter was stepping back from that window.
Oh I get it. You were making it up.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Walt Cakebread on August 02, 2018, 12:21:35 AM
Is this the actual scale? Wow, Brennan had eagles eyes if he was able to recognize Oswald later in the line up, although at first he didn't because he was scared for his family. Is it true that there is no record of Brennan even attending a line-up?
Is it true that there is no record of Brennan even attending a line-up?
There is a record of Brennan attending a line-up.....As I recall he was there at the same time the Davis girls viewed a line-up.
The Detective that escorted the Davis girls noted that Howard Brennan also viewed the line up....
Wow, Brennan had eagles eyes if he was able to recognize Oswald later in the line up,
Brennan DID NOT recognize Lee as the man that he'd seen, who was dressed in light colored khaki clothing, and who was aiming a HUNTING rifle from a sixth floor window.
When Brennan saw the line up he said that Lee most nearly resembled the man that he'd seen. (Naturally , because the other three didn't come close to matching the description....
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 04, 2018, 12:06:23 AM
And we shouldn't forget Zapruder's own testimony... that he thought the shots came from behind him...
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--I guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. I guess they thought it came from right behind me.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. No, I also thought it came from back of me. Of course, you can't tell when something is in line it could come from anywhere, but being I was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--I saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there.
Mr. LIEBELER. All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?
Mr. ZAPRUDER. Well, yes.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 04, 2018, 10:25:09 PM
Abraham Zapruder, Marilyn Sitzman, Emmett Hudson, all were within feet of the knoll, and not one of them saw or heard anyone firing from beside them or behind them.
Hudson affidavit ..was he not sitting on the knoll steps? States that the shots came from above and behind http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-um5UNKllF_w/Tvw3OwlYoQI/AAAAAAAABtk/sFZySlnOkZ8/s1500-h/Emmett-Hudson-Affidavit.gif Sitzman mentioned 'the ringing in her ears' ...see her YT interview. She was not called to testify [under oath] ....why not?
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 04, 2018, 10:33:03 PM
Hudson affidavit ..was he not sitting on the knoll steps? States that the shots came from above and behind http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-um5UNKllF_w/Tvw3OwlYoQI/AAAAAAAABtk/sFZySlnOkZ8/s1500-h/Emmett-Hudson-Affidavit.gif Sitzman mentioned 'the ringing in her ears' ...see her YT interview. She was not called to testify [under oath] ....why not?
Jerry, very good points!
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on August 04, 2018, 10:38:39 PM
Is this the actual scale? Wow, Brennan had eagles eyes if he was able to recognize Oswald later in the line up, although at first he didn't because he was scared for his family. Is it true that there is no record of Brennan even attending a line-up?
Quote
Is this the actual scale?
How is a photo of a "building" on your computer screen represent actual scale, because I could be looking at this on my phone or on my 65 inch TV?
A better way to visualize what Brennan could see would be to place someone in full sunlight about 40 yards away and see what happens.
JohnM
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on August 04, 2018, 10:58:19 PM
Hudson affidavit ..was he not sitting on the knoll steps? States that the shots came from above and behind http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-um5UNKllF_w/Tvw3OwlYoQI/AAAAAAAABtk/sFZySlnOkZ8/s1500-h/Emmett-Hudson-Affidavit.gif Sitzman mentioned 'the ringing in her ears' ...see her YT interview. She was not called to testify [under oath] ....why not?
Quote
Hudson affidavit ..was he not sitting on the knoll steps?
Hudson is the man in the center and if shots were fired from directly behind him he's showing very little reaction and in fact the man on the end is turning and running back towards your shots?
Sitzman mentioned 'the ringing in her ears' ...see her YT interview. She was not called to testify [under oath] ....why not?
Agreed, Marilyn Sitzman is a terrific eyewitness and fully describes the damage as seen in the Zapruder Film, Autopsy photos, X Rays and in the Official Autopsy Report.
Hudson is the man in the center and if shots were fired from directly behind him he's showing very little reaction and in fact the man on the end is turning and running back towards your shots?
Agreed, Marilyn Sitzman is a terrific eyewitness and fully describes the damage as seen in the Zapruder Film, Autopsy photos, X Rays and in the Official Autopsy Report.
Thanks for profferring Sitzman as a "terrific eyewitness". She told Tink Thompson in his 1966 "Six Seconds In Dallas" that she witnessed JFK being "Hit" "Between the Eye and the Ear". Your "terrific eyewitness" provides corroboration of a 2nd shooter.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on August 04, 2018, 11:40:11 PM
Thanks for profferring Sitzman as a "terrific eyewitness". She told Tink Thompson in his 1966 "Six Seconds In Dallas" that she witnessed JFK being "Hit" "Between the Eye and the Ear". Your "terrific eyewitness" provides corroboration of a 2nd shooter.
Instead of relying on hearsay how about listening to Sitzman's own words, she describes where Kennedy's head opened up and where his brains came out.
Btw a bullet in flight couldn't be seen.
JohnM
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 05, 2018, 12:50:54 AM
Instead of relying on hearsay how about listening to Sitzman's own words, she describes where Kennedy's head opened up and where his brains came out.
Btw a bullet in flight couldn't be seen.
JohnM
Sitzman comes across as a credible witness... Here's what she says at the end of her interview:
Interviewer: What is your analysis of the possibility of a gunman, a second gunman, being behind that picket fence? Sitzman: Well, after looking at the film and doing a lot of reading? I would say there is a very good possibility there was somebody back there, but they had a silencer?. [/b]
And she also says in an interview I found online here http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sitzman.txt
Thompson: Where on the side of the head did that shot appear to hit? Sitzman: I would say it'd be above the ear and to the front. Which would be on the right front....
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on August 05, 2018, 01:51:50 AM
Sitzman comes across as a credible witness... Here's what she says at the end of her interview:
Interviewer: What is your analysis of the possibility of a gunman, a second gunman, being behind that picket fence? Sitzman: Well, after looking at the film and doing a lot of reading? I would say there is a very good possibility there was somebody back there, but they had a silencer?. [/b]
Quote
Interviewer: What is your analysis of the possibility of a gunman, a second gunman, being behind that picket fence? Sitzman: Well, after looking at the film and doing a lot of reading? I would say there is a very good possibility there was somebody back there, but they had a silencer?. [/size]
Ok that's nice, so Sitzman didn't see or hear anything.
JohnM
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 05, 2018, 02:00:00 AM
She saw it better than I did, for sure... and says the president was hit above the ear, toward the front... Zapruder seems to testify to the very same thing...
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on August 05, 2018, 02:09:01 AM
She saw it better than I did, for sure... and says the president was hit above the ear, toward the front... Zapruder seems to testify to the very same thing...
For a start neither Zapruder or Sitzman could see a bullet, they can only describe what they saw and both describe the same wound as seen in all the legitimate authenticated physical evidence. It only happened one way.
Instead of relying on hearsay how about listening to Sitzman's own words, she describes where Kennedy's head opened up and where his brains came out.
Btw a bullet in flight couldn't be seen.
JohnM
Your throwing Tink Thompson under the bus reflects the desperate position you are in. I do Not agree with Thompson on several assassination issues, but I do regard his journalistic skills as being competent enough to properly quote a person he interviews. Maybe I missed it, but Nobody, (Sitzman included), has Ever challenged his properly quoting any of the many people/eyewitnesses he interviewed for his 1966 book.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 05, 2018, 05:16:09 AM
Hudson is the man in the center and if shots were fired from directly behind him he's showing very little reaction and in fact the man on the end is turning and running back towards your shots?
My shots?... *::) ............In that clip had the last shot been fired? Anyway read that affidavit... Where it says above and behind.
*Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on August 05, 2018, 06:04:17 AM
Your throwing Tink Thompson under the bus reflects the desperate position you are in. I do Not agree with Thompson on several assassination issues, but I do regard his journalistic skills as being competent enough to properly quote a person he interviews. Maybe I missed it, but Nobody, (Sitzman included), has Ever challenged his properly quoting any of the many people/eyewitnesses he interviewed for his 1966 book.
Give it a rest Storing, here is Marilyn Sitzman telling us with her own words that what she saw was exactly what we see in the Zapruder Film.
JohnM
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Mytton on August 05, 2018, 06:19:08 AM
My shots?... *::) ............In that clip had the last shot been fired? Anyway read that affidavit... Where it says above and behind.
*Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
Quote
In that clip had the last shot been fired?
Seriously, you don't know?
Quote
Anyway read that affidavit... Where it says above and behind.
Yeah above and behind the Limo.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any idea that they might have come from the Texas School Book Depository Building? Mr. HUDSON - Well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and kind of behind like - in other words, to the left. Mr. LIEBELER - And that would have fit in with the Texas School Book Depository, wouldn't it? Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Quote
*Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
That's rich coming from the guy who repeatedly demonstrates that his limited research comes from Youtube and comic books
JohnM
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 05, 2018, 02:24:04 PM
NO NO NO From the affidavit....read something for a change-----the affidavit states-- Hudson said "the shots [plural] definitely came from behind and above" WHO? ---him--"Definitely" --that means positively for sure.
Seriously, you don't know. Liebeler [which sounds like a good name for this guy] was overtly telling Hudson what to say at his own testimony..
Quote
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was. Mr. LIEBELER - You heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above? Mr. LIEBELER - And if we assume that he was shot twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?
Read this testimony and you will not believe how many times Leibeler asks the same question over and over until he Wesley Leibeler provides the answers he wants---- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm Hudson said he hit the ground laying down [not shown in the clip]
You can't argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then slime you with experience.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Royell Storing on August 05, 2018, 03:54:10 PM
Give it a rest Storing, here is Marilyn Sitzman telling us with her own words that what she saw was exactly what we see in the Zapruder Film.
JohnM
Yeah. "Give it a rest" = your waving a White Flag. Not happening until you Stop proffering contrived BS cartoon visual aids & trash guys like Tink Thompson. Just as Paul Newman told Richard Boone in "Hombre" as Boone approached him with a White Flag in hand, " I got 1 question. How you gonna get down that hill?"
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jake Maxwell on August 05, 2018, 07:02:49 PM
NO NO NO From the affidavit....read something for a change-----the affidavit states-- Hudson said "the shots [plural] definitely came from behind and above" WHO? ---him--"Definitely" --that means positively for sure.
For all to see---
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-um5UNKllF_w/Tvw3OwlYoQI/AAAAAAAABtk/sFZySlnOkZ8/s1500/Emmett-Hudson-Affidavit.gif) Seriously, you don't know. Liebeler [which sounds like a good name for this guy] was overtly telling Hudson what to say at his own testimony..Read this testimony and you will not believe how many times Leibeler asks the same question over and over until he Wesley Leibeler provides the answers he wants---- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm Hudson said he hit the ground laying down [not shown in the clip]
You can't argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then slime you with experience.
Yes... Excellent post and highlights Hudson's testimony that the shot came from above and behind him... and the fact that Leibeler was leading the witness wanting to get to the answer he was fishing for... That should be obvious to every junior lawyer...
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Jerry Freeman on August 05, 2018, 09:22:13 PM
NO NO NO From the affidavit....read something for a change-----the affidavit states-- Hudson said "the shots [plural] definitely came from behind and above" WHO? ---him--"Definitely" --that means positively for sure.
For all to see---
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-um5UNKllF_w/Tvw3OwlYoQI/AAAAAAAABtk/sFZySlnOkZ8/s1500/Emmett-Hudson-Affidavit.gif) Seriously, you don't know. Liebeler [which sounds like a good name for this guy] was overtly telling Hudson what to say at his own testimony..Read this testimony and you will not believe how many times Leibeler asks the same question over and over until he Wesley Leibeler provides the answers he wants---- http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm Hudson said he hit the ground laying down [not shown in the clip]
You can't argue with an idiot. They bring you down to their level and then slime you with experience.
Quote
NO NO NO From the affidavit....read something for a change-----the affidavit states-- Hudson said "the shots [plural] definitely came from behind and above" WHO? ---him--"Definitely" --that means positively for sure.
As you helpfully point out Hudson says "the shots [plural]" and it seems that Hudson never mentions crossfire and is saying that all three shots came from only one direction so please explain if the three shots came from the front then how were Kennedy and Connally both shot in the back? Magic bullets? Hahaha!
JohnM
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Allan Fritzke on August 06, 2018, 05:57:22 AM
Hudson is the man in the center and if shots were fired from directly behind him he's showing very little reaction and in fact the man on the end is turning and running back towards your shots?
Agreed, Marilyn Sitzman is a terrific eyewitness and fully describes the damage as seen in the Zapruder Film, Autopsy photos, X Rays and in the Official Autopsy Report.
If Emmett Joseph Hudson was the "middle man" on the steps, he certainly wasn't sitting down as per his voluntary statement. He mentions a man on his left but fails to mention the man in the red shirt in front of him. It certainly looks like the man in the red shirt is pointing something and when the right hand is fully extended, the man on the left of Hudson decides to dart away. The man in the red shirt also looks like he is doing a "timing/dancing" move to follow the car up and line himself up for a shot. On the original Muchmore Film, it appears that there is a white muzzle flash near the end of his extended arm just at the very instant the President's head disappears behind the motorcycle cop's helmet which corresponds again to Z330/Z331. Timing done by looking at Jacqueline's arm coming around the President's head at Z325 or thereabouts. I would have to assume that the other 2 standing with Hudson disappeared into the great abyss without so much as an interview. It also appears that the man in the red shirt (below) wears a watch on his left wrist which catches the light when he makes his move. The move this man makes is bizarre and certainly would need explanation from him in my opinion! This move certainly makes the man on the left of Hudson want to get out rather quickly after the red shirted man extends his right arm or it could have been pure coincidental with the scene. On the other hand, Emmet stands there motionless and emotionless - no reaction whatsoever. However, he claims he was sitting on the steps and only mentions the man on the left in his voluntary statement and no mention of the red shirted man - statement therefore appears contradictory to the video entirely or subduing the elimination of the third witness entirely! There is an instant where we see a similar move as the President's head comes out from behind the sign after the first shot occurred. This person goes from a full arm extension to one of putting that hand behind the back. Again, impossible to see identity of person or see exactly how many where standing there and why that move was exhibited as well as it certainly coincided at a critical time to the passing of the motorcade and the timing of the shots with the POTUS reaction in grabbing his neck with the umbrella man and the Cuban waving at him from the front of the road sign. https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z218.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z218.jpg) (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z218.jpg) https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z238.jpg (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z238.jpg) (https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z238.jpg)
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: John Iacoletti on August 06, 2018, 11:36:32 PM
Sitzman never said that she was pointing at the exact spot where she saw his head open up. And Mytton's screenshot of her hand which was in motion happening to be in a spot that he likes is just as dishonest as the time he did that with Dr. Paul Peters.
Title: Re: Zapruder's testimony to the WC = conspiracy
Post by: Marjan Rynkiewicz on November 15, 2023, 12:46:22 AM
It never ceases to amaze me when people take someone's WC testimony and twist it into things that they actually think happened.
First of all, President Kennedy obviously was not hit circa Z frame 190. That nonsense came about because of the scam the HSCA tried to pull with the acoustics tests, which their entire case of conspiracy was based on. There are no gunshots recorded on the Dictabelt recording, which destroys their entire scenario.
Secondly, There are three sudden movements made by President Kennedy and Governor Connally. The first is when both the president and the governor did head snaps from left to right circa Z 155-161. The second at circa frames 223-240, and finally Z 313-328. There was no sudden motions on the part of the governor or president in any other sequences than these. Three shots, two hits, one miss.
Is this the first time that Steve Barber mentions the phony dictabelt shots?