JFK Assassination Forum
The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: David Von Pein on July 05, 2026, 05:31:56 AM
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(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TIBzsb7K4II/AAAAAAAAFOg/rOqYK4J4FSo/s670/XX.+Quoting+Common+Sense+Blog+Logo.png) (https://quoting-common-sense.blogspot.com)
Reprinted below are some excerpts from my website linked above.
Feel free to add your own comments and JFKA observations, but don't forget to include the Common Sense with each comment. That's very important in this thread....
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"Given the alignment of the two limo victims at the time of the shooting, plus the location of the only known shooter in Dealey Plaza, plus the fact that no bullets were found in JFK's body at all, plus the fact that a whole bullet which positively came out of the gun that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD was found inside the hospital where the two victims were taken, plus the fact that the two injured limo victims reacted to an external stimulus at precisely the same moment in time on the Zapruder Film....I wonder how anyone in 2022 (or any other year or millennium) can be so blind as to not accept the Single-Bullet Theory as fact." -- David Von Pein [DVP]; September 28, 2022
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"If there is a suspicious fire, the [conspiracy-minded] kooks would investigate the firemen who respond, and ignore the guy with the wicked grin that smells of gasoline." -- Bud; November 22, 2007
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjLlOH9B0s1qGnNAxjIVpOAQJ0ooF6ODssYlOqIXTPOqZJ5FHRHpPmh2n0rFu0p-3GBlwh7Dsb-YV-xJnf8U2rtSjZNrO5GDTHhclapg_eoxsO6hyf-H3n9Lcnp2X9MfV8hI_2R0wj_hzA/s1600/LOL.gif)
[More to come....]
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"The argument that Oswald was the tool of a high-level conspiracy does seem plausible, until one tries to fit it into the context these theorists always leave out -- the personality and background of Lee Harvey Oswald, the individual." -- Jean Davison; Page 25 of "Oswald's Game"
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"Conspiracy theorists can pretend all the evidence is fake if they want to. But, in my opinion, the evidence against Oswald could not possibly exist in the abundant quantities it exists in if Lee Oswald had been an innocent patsy.
In addition, Oswald's own actions are telling us a lot. Do CTers think Oswald's own actions and movements are "fake" too? Like when he twice lied to Buell Frazier about "curtain rods". And when he left the TSBD within minutes of JFK's shooting. And when he shot Officer Tippit within 45 minutes of JFK's murder. And when he fought like mad with the cops in the theater, while uttering things that drip with his guilt.
Those are actions I'm supposed to either ignore...or interpret as things that add up to Lee Harvey Oswald's INNOCENCE? Is that right? Come now. Nobody could examine Oswald's actions on BOTH November 21st and 22nd and come to the conclusion that Oswald was merely being used as a fall guy. Oswald's actions incriminate OSWALD, and no one else." -- DVP; February/March 2015
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Here is my Common Sense take on the issue.
The single best argument against Oswald being part of a conspiracy is that he got his job at the TSBD well before anyone knew a presidential motorcade would be going right past that building in late November. Whether one postulates Oswald was a shooter as part of a conspiracy or patsy chosen to take the fall, the plotters couldn't have known that the job at the TSBD would give Oswald a the perfect perch to shoot JFK from. Even if they knew JFK was coming to Dallas, they would have to have specific knowledge that there would be a motorcade and that it would pass directly in front of the TSBD.
The CTs might counter that the conspirators just took advantage of the situation when they discovered their shooter/patsy was at a workplace overlooking the parade route. The question then becomes, why would they have selected Oswald for either role if they didn't know in advance of the golden opportunity his employment at the TSBD would present. Why would these conspirators select an average USMC marksman to do the biggest contract killing in American history? It makes no sense. It is also a bit far-fetched to think they had already contracted with Oswald to do the shooting and just got lucky when the motorcade route was announced. What are the odds of that happening.
Then the CTs might ask, didn't Oswald just get lucky when he learned of the motorcade route. Yes he did, and if Oswald was the only mentally unbalanced person in the country with a rifle and a propensity to commit such a heinous act, it would have been a remarkably bad piece of luck. But the fact is there might have been dozens of such people in the country, maybe hundreds, who would have done what Oswald did if given the opportunity. Given the fact we had a President who traveled all over the country and had a fondness for riding in slow moving motorcades in an open top car, it's not at all surprising that he eventually might cross paths with one of them. The key word here is "opportunity". This was a crime of opportunity. Oswald won the assassin's lottery when JFK's motorcade was routed right past his workplace and he took full advantage. Maybe if another site for the luncheon had been selected we would have never heard of Lee Harvey Oswald. Maybe it would have been another assassin in another city at another time who was dealt such an opportunity or maybe it would never have happened at all. Life can be that random. Who could have guessed that the choice for the site of the luncheon would have such devastating consequences, but that is what happened.
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Thanks for your post, John. Thumb1:
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"If you were put in charge of framing your lone patsy on 11/22/63, would you have placed three gunmen all throughout Dealey Plaza? Or would you have fired from ONLY the Sniper's Nest in the TSBD using only your patsy's gun?
And would you allow your patsy to wander around in the lunchroom at 12:30, where he's quite likely to be seen by people AT LUNCHTIME?
What if Oswald had called in sick on November 22nd? What then? Would the plotters have re-routed the motorcade to have it pass by Ruth Paine's home in Irving?" -- DVP; April 2007
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"If you were put in charge of framing your lone patsy on 11/22/63, would you have placed three gunmen all throughout Dealey Plaza? Or would you have fired from ONLY the Sniper's Nest in the TSBD using only your patsy's gun?
And would you allow your patsy to wander around in the lunchroom at 12:30, where he's quite likely to be seen by people AT LUNCHTIME?
What if Oswald had called in sick on November 22nd? What then? Would the plotters have re-routed the motorcade to have it pass by Ruth Paine's home in Irving?" -- DVP; April 2007
The odds of Oswald being selected to be the triggerman for the JFKA seem quite remote for reason already stated. To suggest that he was chosen to be the patsy and that he would have been such a cooperative patsy is even more far fetched. Why would Oswald have been willing to smuggle his rifle into work. I think he could put 2 and 2 together to figure out what a bad idea that would be. If one wants to believe that the plotters stole Oswald's rifle, how did they get Oswald to bring a long brown paper bag into work. Are we to believe that the bag found next to the sniper's nest with Oswald's prints on it just happened to be long enough to hold the disassembled rifle. Why were there no curtain rods in the empty paper bag found by the sniper's nest.
What if Oswald had decided to join the rest of the TSBD employees on the front steps of the TSBD. According to Ralph Cinque, that's what he did. Suppose he had returned to work and answered the roll call. Even if they found his rifle, he would have had employees ready to tell the police, "Lee was with us when the shots were fired".
If Oswald was a patsy, he had to be the most cooperative patsy ever selected to take the fall for a crime committed by somebody else. He did everything imaginable that day to make himself look guilty. This is where the CTs will tell us his "handlers" made him do all those things that incriminated him which is laughable. It reminds me of Flip Wilson's Geraldine character saying, "The devil made me do it".
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DVP:
The testimony of the Connallys has always clashed with the WC narrative.
Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)
Gov. JBC described himself as immediately incapacitated after he was shot.
The WC narrative is that JBC was struck by the same slug that hit JFK ~Z-221.
But JBC is bolt upright after Z-221, then looks over his right shoulder, eventually makes a near 180-degree in seat (you can see the left profile of JBC's face in the Z-film), begins to turn forward, and appears to be struck and pushed forward ~Z-295.
JBC shows no sign of incapacitating injury until after Z-295. I can well believe being shot though the chest would immediately incapacitate a man. I find it unlikely that JBC, after being shot through the chest, then made a 180-degree turn in his seat to check on JFK.
JBC being shot at Z-295 also lines up with the "bang...bang-bang" cadence described by so many witnesses.
I have reasonable doubts a lone gunsel, armed with a single shot per bolt action rifle, could perp the JFKA as revealed in the Z-film.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
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The odds of Oswald being selected to be the triggerman for the JFKA seem quite remote for reason already stated. To suggest that he was chosen to be the patsy and that he would have been such a cooperative patsy is even more far fetched. Why would Oswald have been willing to smuggle his rifle into work. I think he could put 2 and 2 together to figure out what a bad idea that would be. If one wants to believe that the plotters stole Oswald's rifle, how did they get Oswald to bring a long brown paper bag into work. Are we to believe that the bag found next to the sniper's nest with Oswald's prints on it just happened to be long enough to hold the disassembled rifle. Why were there no curtain rods in the empty paper bag found by the sniper's nest.
What if Oswald had decided to join the rest of the TSBD employees on the front steps of the TSBD. According to Ralph Cinque, that's what he did. Suppose he had returned to work and answered the roll call. Even if they found his rifle, he would have had employees ready to tell the police, "Lee was with us when the shots were fired".
If Oswald was a patsy, he had to be the most cooperative patsy ever selected to take the fall for a crime committed by somebody else. He did everything imaginable that day to make himself look guilty. This is where the CTs will tell us his "handlers" made him do all those things that incriminated him which is laughable. It reminds me of Flip Wilson's Geraldine character saying, "The devil made me do it".
If there is nothing to opinions that at the very least there was a cover up implicating folks in high places, (in the conspiracy to cover up, not necessarily in the JFKA itself...)
Why do we have the evidence of this 1977 letter and why was the FBI claiming it was unable to identify a "Mr. Beamis", described in that 1977 as the owner of a string of hotels, when it is obvious he was George HW Bush's lifelong,best friend?
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=9963#relPageId=175
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51197299766_c6ea2db21f_b.jpg)
https://www.google.com/books... (https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_China_Diary_of_George_H_W_Bush/jRvdwoKQOgQC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=china+bemis+devine&pg=PA311&printsec=frontcover)
Circa 1974 :
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51197490078_69a2223cac_b.jpg)
Henry Hurt had a job teaching school in the town Bush and Bemiss summered in, all of their lives,
Kennebunkport. Hurt was about to marry Bemiss's cousin....
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"Several factors make it clear that Kennedy and Connally WERE struck by the same bullet. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of any separate bullet hitting Connally." -- Vincent Bugliosi; 1986
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Here is my Common Sense take on the issue.
The single best argument against Oswald being part of a conspiracy is that he got his job at the TSBD well before anyone knew a presidential motorcade would be going right past that building in late November. Whether one postulates Oswald was a shooter as part of a conspiracy or patsy chosen to take the fall, the plotters couldn't have known that the job at the TSBD would give Oswald a the perfect perch to shoot JFK from. Even if they knew JFK was coming to Dallas, they would have to have specific knowledge that there would be a motorcade and that it would pass directly in front of the TSBD.
The CTs might counter that the conspirators just took advantage of the situation when they discovered their shooter/patsy was at a workplace overlooking the parade route. The question then becomes, why would they have selected Oswald for either role if they didn't know in advance of the golden opportunity his employment at the TSBD would present. Why would these conspirators select an average USMC marksman to do the biggest contract killing in American history? It makes no sense. It is also a bit far-fetched to think they had already contracted with Oswald to do the shooting and just got lucky when the motorcade route was announced. What are the odds of that happening.
Then the CTs might ask, didn't Oswald just get lucky when he learned of the motorcade route. Yes he did, and if Oswald was the only mentally unbalanced person in the country with a rifle and a propensity to commit such a heinous act, it would have been a remarkably bad piece of luck. But the fact is there might have been dozens of such people in the country, maybe hundreds, who would have done what Oswald did if given the opportunity. Given the fact we had a President who traveled all over the country and had a fondness for riding in slow moving motorcades in an open top car, it's not at all surprising that he eventually might cross paths with one of them. The key word here is "opportunity". This was a crime of opportunity. Oswald won the assassin's lottery when JFK's motorcade was routed right past his workplace and he took full advantage. Maybe if another site for the luncheon had been selected we would have never heard of Lee Harvey Oswald. Maybe it would have been another assassin in another city at another time who was dealt such an opportunity or maybe it would never have happened at all. Life can be that random. Who could have guessed that the choice for the site of the luncheon would have such devastating consequences, but that is what happened.
I often challenge CT arguments on the basis “That simply makes no sense.” Honesty and my own nagging doubts about the LN scenario compel me to acknowledge three CT scenarios at which this challenge can’t be leveled: (1) Oswald as a dupe in a Mafia plot; (2) Oswald as a dupe in an anti-Castro plot; and (3) Oswald as a willing participant in a pro-Castro plot. To make sense, I believe all three would have to be tight, minimalist conspiracies, and number (3) would have to involve pro-Castro types little more sophisticated than Oswald himself (i.e., nothing official).
For any of these, Oswald with his pro-Castro high profile could have been on the radar screen long before the JFKA. He would have been on the radar screen for numbers (1) and (2) because he would have been an almost too-good-to-be-true patsy. He would have been on the radar screen for (3) because he was an in-your-face Castro supporter (and god knows what wild things he may have said in New Orleans or Mexico City). To be on the radar screen would not have required anyone to know in advance that he would be working in the TSBD or the exact motorcade route.
JFK’s trip to Dallas was known even before Oswald went to Mexico City. There were surely umpteen locations along the route from which the JFKA could have been carried out. I think there is a tendency to reason backwards: Oswald was in fact working in the TSBD, the sixth floor provided an excellent perch, the limousine slowed to a crawl when it turned onto Elm, and the JFKA was in fact highly successful – ergo, this must have been “the plan” from the get-go. But this is not true at all. How do we account for Oswald pretty clearly scouting the Allright Parking Garage just a week before the JFKA?
I don’t say that any of the three CT scenarios I posit is anywhere near as likely as the LN scenario. To tilt the scales would require either or both of (1) really compelling evidence that there was such a plot and that it involved Oswald and/or (2) really compelling evidence that the LN scenario – probably meaning the SBT – is not a plausible explanation for what occurred in Dealey Plaza.
I do say, however, that none of the scenarios is nonsensical or subject to the charge “That simply makes no sense.” If we’re going to be intellectually honest and accuse CTers of making no sense when that charge fits, I think we have to be careful to distinguish between genuine “common sense” and mere “LN salesmanship.”
One bit of common sense that I think is very difficult for any CT scenario to overcome is: In any conspiracy, it is hard to imagine a gunman hitching a ride with a coworker to retrieve his disassembled $20 rifle the evening before the assassination. That's a toughie, hence the CT propensity to say "That's not what happened."
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"Several factors make it clear that Kennedy and Connally WERE struck by the same bullet. There's absolutely no evidence of the existence of any separate bullet hitting Connally." -- Vincent Bugliosi; 1986
I happen to be rereading Gerald Knight’s CT-oriented but excellent Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why. Knight was a respected professor of history. He makes the point that the FBI’s working hypothesis all along, which was shared by the Secret Service, was that JFK had been hit by two bullets and JBC by a third. This was the FBI’s final report that was expected by everyone concerned to serve as the guide for the Warren Commission and the basis for what it was “expected” to conclude. The SBT was really prompted by the WC’s need to account for the wound to Tague, which had been conveniently omitted from the FBI report. I am no great student of the SBT and would not be qualified to speak about the medical and ballistic aspects even if I were, but I have read enough (lots) to regard it as problematical in several regards. There seems to be a tendency on the part of LN advocates to keep saying things like “There is no doubt!” as though saying this often and loudly made it true. From my informed layman’s perspective, I think there is a fair amount of legitimate doubt. As I’ve said previously, I wish there could be a fresh look by world-class experts from other countries who know and care nothing about JFK or the JFKA and thus have no preconceived notions or agenda. Maybe we can get Elon Musk to work on this!
(Are we now supposed to be posting "real us" avatars like the Ed Forum? I suppose I can find one that doesn't make me look girlishly cute. Nope, couldn't do it - I'm cute in all of them. Admittedly, that was ten years ago, when I was still using Just for Men. I did have an amusing anecdote about that: My boss, the County Attorney, was a big blob of a guy with very short hair who one day used Just for Men. Literally EVERYONE commented on it. "Did you see Mel? Look at Mel!" So I, the Chief Deputy, used it and expected at least some reaction. I met my paralegal Vicki as I was going up the stairs and she was coming down. "Well?" I asked. "What?" she asked as though she had no clue. I pointed at my hair. "What?" she asked again, slightly exasperated. "I USED THAT STUFF!" "No one cares," she said, as she continued on her way.)
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JFK’s trip to Dallas was known even before Oswald went to Mexico City. There were surely umpteen locations along the route from which the JFKA could have been carried out. I think there is a tendency to reason backwards: Oswald was in fact working in the TSBD, the sixth floor provided an excellent perch, the limousine slowed to a crawl when it turned onto Elm, and the JFKA was in fact highly successful – ergo, this must have been “the plan” from the get-go. But this is not true at all. How do we account for Oswald pretty clearly scouting the Allright Parking Garage just a week before the JFKA?
What evidence is there that Oswald was "pretty clearly scouting the Allright Parking Garage just a week before the JFKA.".
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DVP:
The testimony of the Connallys has always clashed with the WC narrative.
Connally: I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)
Gov. JBC described himself as immediately incapacitated after he was shot.
The WC narrative is that JBC was struck by the same slug that hit JFK ~Z-221.
But JBC is bolt upright after Z-221, then looks over his right shoulder, eventually makes a near 180-degree in seat (you can see the left profile of JBC's face in the Z-film), begins to turn forward, and appears to be struck and pushed forward ~Z-295.
JBC shows no sign of incapacitating injury until after Z-295. I can well believe being shot though the chest would immediately incapacitate a man. I find it unlikely that JBC, after being shot through the chest, then made a 180-degree turn in his seat to check on JFK.
JBC being shot at Z-295 also lines up with the "bang...bang-bang" cadence described by so many witnesses.
I have reasonable doubts a lone gunsel, armed with a single shot per bolt action rifle, could perp the JFKA as revealed in the Z-film.
Caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
Why do you have to make up crap. JBC never said he was incapacitated by the shot that hit him. That's ludicrous. No wonder you come up with such goofy ideas. You lie to yourself about the facts.
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I happen to be rereading Gerald Knight’s CT-oriented but excellent Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why. Knight was a respected professor of history. He makes the point that the FBI’s working hypothesis all along, which was shared by the Secret Service, was that JFK had been hit by two bullets and JBC by a third. This was the FBI’s final report that was expected by everyone concerned to serve as the guide for the Warren Commission and the basis for what it was “expected” to conclude. The SBT was really prompted by the WC’s need to account for the wound to Tague, which had been conveniently omitted from the FBI report. I am no great student of the SBT and would not be qualified to speak about the medical and ballistic aspects even if I were, but I have read enough (lots) to regard it as problematical in several regards. There seems to be a tendency on the part of LN advocates to keep saying things like “There is no doubt!” as though saying this often and loudly made it true. From my informed layman’s perspective, I think there is a fair amount of legitimate doubt. As I’ve said previously, I wish there could be a fresh look by world-class experts from other countries who know and care nothing about JFK or the JFKA and thus have no preconceived notions or agenda. Maybe we can get Elon Musk to work on this!
You say you regard the SBT "as problematical in several regards" yet you never specify what those problems are. This seems to be typical of critics of the SBT. They say it's impossible without ever saying why. They think it is enough just to say it because so many other people have said it so it must be true.
There is no doubt in my mind that the SBT is a fact. It is the only plausible explanation ever given for JFK's non-fatal wounds and all of JBC's wounds. I've challenged many CTs over the years to tell us another way it COULD HAVE happened. I just made that challenge to MTG and I have yet to see a response, not that I was expecting one. I don't ask them to prove another way it happened. Just give us a plausible alternative. I believe the reason the CTs fail to respond to the challenge is because they quickly realize that any alternative explanation would require one or more magic bullets. This approach fits with the overall approach by CTs in general. The rarely try to tell us how they think the JFKA went down. They just want to tell us it didn't happen the way the WC said it did without ever giving us a plausible alternative to the WCR.
PS. I see somebody (Duncan?) has grabbed a screen shot from my session with Fred Litwin to be my avatar. That's too bad. The one I had was a lot younger and a lot better looking than me.
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What evidence is there that Oswald was "pretty clearly scouting the Allright Parking Garage just a week before the JFKA.".
See https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190240/.
This was the parking garage of the Southland Center. It in fact was the tallest building west of the Mississippi in 1963. The Sheraton opened in 1959. JFK's motorcade went right past it.
Kind of an odd detail for the manager to invent: Oswald asked how high the building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.
(https://preview.redd.it/southland-center-now-sheraton-dallas-hotel-tallest-building-v0-5olnusvskxjd1.jpg?width=517&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=734e66c485d644cc9dacbe61fdfd65cd2ebd9e98)
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See https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190240/.
This was the parking garage of the Southland Center. It in fact was the tallest building west of the Mississippi in 1963. The Sheraton opened in 1959. JFK's motorcade went right past it.
Kind of an odd detail for the manager to invent: Oswald asked how high the building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.
(https://preview.redd.it/southland-center-now-sheraton-dallas-hotel-tallest-building-v0-5olnusvskxjd1.jpg?width=517&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=734e66c485d644cc9dacbe61fdfd65cd2ebd9e98)
It doesn't even seem up to your own weight of evidence minimum, Lance.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190240/m1/2/
Why would LHO be looking for a job when it was already scripted, weeks before he was hired at TSBD, that this "gold level" witness
testified that Oswald evidently knew what area he would be working in, to a degree of confidence he was seeking the most convenient
living and mass transit to a job location he could not have knowledge of yet, in a scriptless world.
https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/testimony/johnso_g.htm
Testimony of Mrs. Arthur Carl (Gladys J.) Johnson
,,,,
,,,,,,,Mr. BALL. The first time he came to see you?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; that's something about 3 weeks before he came back.
Mr. BALL. This was 1026 North Beckley?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes.
Mr. BALL. He talked to you?
Mrs. JOHNSON. Yes; the first time and the last time; the first time, he told me he wanted a room and I told him I was very sorry, I just rented the last room and he said he was very sorry, he wanted to get near his work and he didn't have a car and it being on the bus line, he was sorry he missed it. I said, "You noticed the sign." I hadn't had time to take the sign up and I told him, "I will take the sign up and if you notice the sign up again, you might stop by...
Are you familiar with the ARRB testimony of Adele Edisen? I spoke with her on the telephone twice on a fall weekend in 2010. Her professional credentials were impeccable.
She claimed that she met a mysterious army colonel in spring 1963. His sister-in-law's son was married to a longtime CBS news producer.
The colonel, who she recalled was a Peruvian born immigrant M.D. named Jose Rivera, instructed, her no later than April, she remembered that the cherry blossoms were in
bloom in DC, to call a number her, and to ask to speak to LHO to relay a message from the colonel. Mrs. Garner, on Mechanix St in NOLA, answered the phone but she was unfamiliar with the name of her future tenant, LHO. Adele called again a few weeks later, and this time, the Garners put Oswald on the phone and Adele relyed the colonel's message.
The family of the colonel's second wife whose nephew was married to the CBS news producer, lived quite close to Frank Carlucci's family in an area
of Pennsylvania with a tiny population, 2752 in 2020.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Creek_Township,_Pennsylvania
https://www.nixonfoundation.org/2024/04/the-inspirational-legacy-of-secretary-frank-carlucci-kristin-carlucci-weed-in-conversation-with-frank-gannon/
Frank C. Carlucci '52's Daughter Honors Late Father's Career In Service ...
The book: Frank C. Carlucci '52 had an incredible career in government. He served under six presidents in a variety of roles, including secretary of defense, deputy director of the CIA, and as ambassador to Portugal. In Get me Carlucci (Disruption Books), ,,,
Adele's attorney sent the letter linked below to the HSCA in 1976,
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=99781#relPageId=3
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See https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190240/.
This was the parking garage of the Southland Center. It in fact was the tallest building west of the Mississippi in 1963. The Sheraton opened in 1959. JFK's motorcade went right past it.
Kind of an odd detail for the manager to invent: Oswald asked how high the building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.
And that says to you that Oswald was "pretty clearly scouting the Allright Parking Garage just a week before the JFKA."?
It's amazing the things people can conjure up from the most mundane statements.
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It doesn't even seem up to your own weight of evidence minimum, Lance.
https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth190240/m1/2/
I really don't have an evidentiary minimum. What I posted is the only evidence there is. The tip came into the DPD from a confidential source only ten days after the JFKA. The Allright manager, Morrow, didn't come forward but had to be approached - for some reason not until January 23. His story sounds entirely credible to me - nothing sensationalized, but with the distinctly odd detail that Oswald asked about the height of the building and whether it had a good view of downtown Dallas. The other employee, Sapp, "knew for a fact" that Oswald never spoke to employee Hallmark or submitted an application - which sounds as though she is at least confirming the encounter. This sounds to me like one of those intriguing little JFKA details that might be worth its weight in gold if only we knew more.
Why would LHO be looking for a job when it was already scripted, weeks before he was hired at TSBD, that this "gold level" witness
testified that Oswald evidently knew what area he would be working in, to a degree of confidence he was seeking the most convenient
living and mass transit to a job location he could not have knowledge of yet, in a scriptless world.
My guess would be that Oswald was simply looking for jobs in downtown Dallas and wanted a room convenient to the main bus line. I think that's a more logical interpretation than that he knew he'd be working at the TSBD because it had all been scripted in advaance.
Are you familiar with the ARRB testimony of Adele Edisen? I spoke with her on the telephone twice on a fall weekend in 2010. Her professional credentials were impeccable.
She claimed that she met a mysterious army colonel in spring 1963. His sister-in-law's son was married to a longtime CBS news producer.
The colonel, who she recalled was a Peruvian born immigrant M.D. named Jose Rivera, instructed, her no later than April, she remembered that the cherry blossoms were in
bloom in DC, to call a number her, and to ask to speak to LHO to relay a message from the colonel. Mrs. Garner, on Mechanix St in NOLA, answered the phone but she was unfamiliar with the name of her future tenant, LHO. Adele called again a few weeks later, and this time, the Garners put Oswald on the phone and Adele relyed the colonel's message.
The family of the colonel's second wife whose nephew was married to the CBS news producer, lived quite close to Frank Carlucci's family in an area
of Pennsylvania with a tiny population, 2752 in 2020.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bear_Creek_Township,_Pennsylvania
Adele's attorney sent the letter linked below to the HSCA in 1976,
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=99781#relPageId=3
I'm really not familiar with Adele at all. For those who likewise aren't, here is a 2004 thread started by John Simkin at the Ed Forum where his original post summarizes her story in considerable detail: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/609-adele-edisen/.
Below is a photo of the pleasant-looking Adele. This is from the unlikely site Cassiopaea, the Fellowship of the Cosmic Mind. In a thread titled "High Strangeness, Adele Edison and the otherwordly murder of JFK," someone named Michael B-C seems to know a hell of a lot about Adele:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/threads/high-strangeness-adele-edisen-and-the-otherworldly-murder-of-jfk.48858/
Seriously, that thread is worth reading.
This sounds like it's right down my weirdness alley, and I'll have to dive into it!
(https://cassiopaea.org/forum/attachments/download-jpg.36266/)
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I really don't have an evidentiary minimum. What I posted is the only evidence there is. The tip came into the DPD from a confidential source only ten days after the JFKA. The Allright manager, Morrow, didn't come forward but had to be approached - for some reason not until January 23. His story sounds entirely credible to me - nothing sensationalized, but with the distinctly odd detail that Oswald asked about the height of the building and whether it had a good view of downtown Dallas. The other employee, Sapp, "knew for a fact" that Oswald never spoke to employee Hallmark or submitted an application - which sounds as though she is at least confirming the encounter. This sounds to me like one of those intriguing little JFKA details that might be worth its weight in gold if only we knew more.
My guess would be that Oswald was simply looking for jobs in downtown Dallas and wanted a room convenient to the main bus line. I think that's a more logical interpretation than that he knew he'd be working at the TSBD because it had all been scripted in advance.
I'm really not familiar with Adele at all. For those who likewise aren't, here is a 2004 thread started by John Simkin at the Ed Forum where his original post summarizes her story in considerable detail: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/609-adele-edisen/.
Below is a photo of the pleasant-looking Adele. This is from the unlikely site Cassiopaea, the Fellowship of the Cosmic Mind. In a thread titled "High Strangeness, Adele Edison and the otherwordly murder of JFK," someone named Michael B-C seems to know a hell of a lot about Adele:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/threads/high-strangeness-adele-edisen-and-the-otherworldly-murder-of-jfk.48858/
Seriously, that thread is worth reading.
This sounds like it's right down my weirdness alley, and I'll have to dive into it!
(https://cassiopaea.org/forum/attachments/download-jpg.36266/)
Adele's Col. Dr. Jose Rivera was 21 in 1900, consistent with his first marriage record in DC in 1924. Then, he got younger, not older like cabbie William Whaley managed to.
This CBS 60 Minutes producer is longtime spouse of Rivera's wife's nephew.
https://news.colgate.edu/scene/2018/02/60-minutes-turns-50.html
"...We decided to go ahead, against Don’s instincts, and shot the story in Poland. By midwinter, we were ready to show it to him. The 60 Minutes room is a comfortable place, with theater seating and a big monitor in the front of the room. In those days, the correspondent sat out in the seats with senior producer .Merri Lieberthal, while Don and Phil sat behind a small desk. The producer sat in an elevated area toward the room, next to the senior editor, Esther Kartiganer, who timed a clock..
Hilda Aldunate, mentioned in this obit of Jose Rovera's wife, displayed below, was the MIL of longtime wife of Hilda's son, Carlos Aldunate, CBS's Merri Liebenthal, whose career began at CBS as Mike Wallace's secretary.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1298&dat=19931113&id=Y-cyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mQcGAAAAIBAJ&pg=4307,2534374
In right top center of the newspaper page image linked above,:
"November 13, 1993
....Producer Merri Lieberthal was Mike Wallace's secretary when the show made it's debute."
https://www.mylife.com/merri-lieberthal/e6379878996
Merri Lieberthal is 84 years old and was born on 05/05/1942. Right now, Merri Lieberthal lives in Aventura, FL. Merri also answers to Merr S Lieberthal, Merri Sue Lieberthal, Merri S Liebethal, Merri S Lieberthal and Merri S Aldunate, and perhaps a couple of other names. Background details that you might want to know about Merri include: ethnicity is unknown, whose political affiliation is none; and religious views are listed as unknown. Hilda Aldunate, Carlos Aldunate,...
https://www.mylife.com/carlos-aldunate/e6362211018
Carlos P Aldunate, 85 - Aventura, FL - Has Court or Arrest Records
As of this date, Carlos is single. Carlos has many family members and associates who include Merri Lieberthal, Hilda Aldunate, Carlos Aldunate, Robert Aldunate and Joanne Aldunate.
(https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2608/4080297122_23931a9ab9.jpg)
(https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2717/4080292430_cd1e760dc3_b.jpg)
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Well, weirdness fans, I made a stiff screwdriver and read through the whole Adele Edisen thread. Jesus! I don't know what to make of it, but unless Adele was just flat off her rocker it demands attention. Michael B-C relies heavily on the work of Hank Albarelli, but he and the other posters are no dummies. Weird as they may be, it was refreshing to read participants who are civil and intelligent. I may join!
Here is a 2009 interview with 81-year-old Adele, so you can read what she actually had to say: https://digital.utsa.edu/digital/api/collection/p15125coll4/id/1966/download.
There are really only two choices: (1) Adele was seriously demented, despite her fantastic academic and professional background or (2) Something Damn Weird happened.
I'm not totally clear as to what Michael B-C is suggesting, but it sounds more exotic than "just" MK/ULTRA-type stuff. Something along the lines of The Matrix.
I have mentioned before, but one of my really good friends is an 84-year-old guy who has been one of the true luminaries of the UFO field for 50+ years. Believe me: one of the true luminaries. He believes we live in a programmed virtual reality. He has no interest in the JFKA per se - none - but he does believe that certain events were programmed to have a significance beyond the mere historical event. Two that he has mentioned are the JFKA and the sinking of the Titanic, the latter event being one of my absolute obsessions since I was a toddler.
(Admit it, people: Isn't this way more interesting than that "common sense" stuff? We don't need no stinkin' common sense.)
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....
-Snip-
My guess would be that Oswald was simply looking for jobs in downtown Dallas and wanted a room convenient to the main bus line. I think that's a more logical interpretation than that he knew he'd be working at the TSBD because it had all been scripted in advaance.
I'm really not familiar with Adele at all. For those who likewise aren't, here is a 2004 thread started by John Simkin at the Ed Forum where his original post summarizes her story in considerable detail: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/609-adele-edisen/.
Below is a photo of the pleasant-looking Adele. This is from the unlikely site Cassiopaea, the Fellowship of the Cosmic Mind. In a thread titled "High Strangeness, Adele Edison and the otherwordly murder of JFK," someone named Michael B-C seems to know a hell of a lot about Adele:
https://cassiopaea.org/forum/threads/high-strangeness-adele-edisen-and-the-otherworldly-murder-of-jfk.48858/
Seriously, that thread is worth reading.
This sounds like it's right down my weirdness alley, and I'll have to dive into it!
(https://cassiopaea.org/forum/attachments/download-jpg.36266/)
It gets much, much weirder, Lance.
Adele claimed she was moved by the assassination to ignore her psychiatrist husband's strong advice against it,
and proceed on the morning after, November, 23, to report her story about Rivera to the Secret Service office in NOLA, where she resided at the time.
The federal building seemed closed but she gained access and met up with SS Saic John Rice and an FBI agent named Odum. Rice had been talking to.
She said that they advised that they were leaving that afternoon by plane for a meeting in Dallas.
Adele in her own words at age 73, in 2001,
Agent Rice was deceased by 2010 when I spoke with Adele. His wife's birthday happened to be on 11/22.
According to the wedding announcement, was living near the Polk base and it was located on the route to Shreveport.
I felt strongly Rice dropped his wife off to visit their daughter and celebrate her mother's birthday.
The daughter may have been able to corroborate details of Adele's visit with her father and that he
flew to Dallas for a meeting. Agent Rice's trip to Shreveport on the morning of 11/22 was known because the
record indicates he was ordered to question a Jack Martin of northern Louisiana hours after the JFKA and he
filed a report about that diversion of his return trip from Shreveport.
I located Rice's daughter and gave Adele location and contact info.
Adele seemed grateful to receive that contact information but she then sat on it. She told me she did not want to disturb
Rice's daughter. I also found a contemoorary photo of Rice's daughter.
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Fortified by a second screwdriver (hey, my wife is in Belarus until Wednesday, so the cats and I are living it up!), I read the l-o-n-g 2009 interview with Adele. She was very sharp and told a consistent story. Two red flags might be: (1) she didn't go public until 1991, two years after Rivera had died, and (2) by the time of the interview, she was neck-deep in CT theorizing and had obviously been for a long time; she was even a member of the Ed Forum. Roswell researchers have been burned by so many characters who seemed so credible for so long, until they were finally exposed, that I would definitely say "proceed with caution." One "plus" with Adele is that her story is so flat-out wild that it almost invites the "she's nuts" response; the hoaxsters seldom have a tale this wild (unless their names are Judyth Vary Baker).
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Once again, the intrepid John Armstrong was on the case: Here is his Adele Edisen file in the John Armstrong Collection at Baylor. In early 1985, she did provide to the San Antonio FBI office a narrative of the events involving Rivera as well as her own CV with a list of her professional publications. San Antonio forwarded it on to the Director (yep - my good buddy William Webster! :D :D :D). So she was definitely public with this before Rivera had died.
https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/new-orleans-witnesses-adele-edisen/705722?item=705723
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OK, I'm beating this past the point of common sense (and proud of it! :D). In a long dialogue with Tom at the Ed Forum, here is the esteemed Bill Kelly's take on what this might have been all about. I can't say it makes a whole lot of sense to me, but maybe that's a point in Adele's favor:
My personal opinion is the whole Edisen/Rivera saga is about a security test run, devised in April, 1963, to see if the Secret Service and FBI lines could be trusted or had to be neutralized or compromised further, and indeed Adele does what Rivera tells her she will do and that's to contact the Secret Service BEFORE the assassination and tell them something is wrong. Rice is given the assignment and he wants to know more and opens the door, so when she finally comes in on Sunday, Nov. 24, the test run comes back. Rice and Bartlett then take in everything Adele has to tell them, pass it on to their superiors in DC and Baltimore, and let them put the stoppers in.
Adele was sent out as a sort of trial balloon to see how the security apparatus would respond and who would do the responding, and it appears that even though Adele has a high opinion of Agents Rice and Bartlett, they had to have been compromised for giving Col. Rivera a free "get out of jail" card.
And its a shame that nobody ever got to question Rice and Bartlett about these things before they died.
Most significant, and I'm sure the History Channel's resident historian Steve Gallen and Mr. Morrow should be interested in this - the FBI's Orin Bartlett, liaison to the Secret Service and White House at the time of the assassination, and in on the interview with Adele on Sunday afternoon as Oswald is being shot, this same guy FBI agent Bartlett is the guy that LBJ specifically requested to be aboard AF1 whenever and whereever he traveled. And this request or order was made by LBJ directly to J. E. Hoover, and an order carried out. LBJ told Hoover that he didn't trust the Secret Service and wanted an FBI agent he could trust to be with him when he was aboard AF1.
So it isn't just about Col. Rivera and Dr. Edisen, it's about the individuals she leads us to, especailly John W. Rice and Orrin Bartlett, both of whom become entwined up to their ears, Rice in investigating Oswald in New Oreans and Bartlett as LBJ's private security blanket.
As far as Adele is concerned, I have taken what she has said, and followed up on it as best I can, and unlike other witnesses, she leads me to other witnesses and suspects - all of whom are interesting in their own right - especially Jose Rivera, John W. Rice and Orrin Bartlett.
She certainly didn't make their names up, and when checked, they were exactly what she said they were - a NIH scientists and Col. in Army reserves, the head of the SS in New Orleans and the FBI liaison to the Secret Service, and they each have other roles to play in the Dealey Plaza drama other than what Adele has to say.
So even if you discount everything she says about everything else, these are three aces she brought to the table that would have gone by the wayside had she not called our attention to them.
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Once again, the intrepid John Armstrong was on the case: Here is his Adele Edisen file in the John Armstrong Collection at Baylor. In early 1985, she did provide to the San Antonio FBI office a narrative of the events involving Rivera as well as her own CV with a list of her professional publications. San Antonio forwarded it on to the Director (yep - my good buddy William Webster! :D :D :D). So she was definitely public with this before Rivera had died.
https://digitalcollections-baylor.quartexcollections.com/Documents/Detail/new-orleans-witnesses-adele-edisen/705722?item=705723
Lance, when I talked with Adele for a combined 9 or 10 hours on the telephone over two weekend days in 2010, she was close to my current age and seemingly as sharp
as a tack. She impressed me so much I turned the phone over to my wife and they had an amiable chat.
She told me her son was an Army Colonel and that she had received help from a then FBI agent, presumably in that San Antonio office and that he managed to get her claims into
the inventory record of the HSCA, despite the investigation being closed at that point. Her attorney, in 1976, had written to the HSCA but had not included the name of his
client.
She shared the name of the, by 2010, former FBI agent. I checked it out, he described his former FBI career to assist in obtaining clients in his current business as a PI.
The same name was also the son of the Officer above Dr. Humes who had assigned Humes to perform the autopsy of JFK.
I kept the name to myself, but I regularly received PMs from Gary Mack, correcting details I posted on the Ed Forum, JFK Debate. He did not post publicly, he got other forum members to do it for him. He was unfamiliar with the name and background of that unusual FBI Agent, turned PI.
His father was RADM EDWARD C KENNEY
https://www.vlm.cem.va.gov/EDWARDCKENNEY/66B65B2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopsy_of_John_F._Kennedy
......
Navy Surgeon General Edward C. Kenney ordered two naval medical doctors, Commander James Humes and Commander J. Thornton Boswell, to conduct the autopsy.[14] Humes was selected as lead surgeon. Boswell called the decision to conduct the autopsy at Bethesda "stupid" and argued that it should instead be held at the specialized Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP) just five miles away. Although both had conducted autopsies, neither were trained or certified in forensic pathology.[15 ...
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Tom, having now dived into this I am perplexed at how little attention Adele receives. Everyone agrees that she had impeccable credentials, was absolutely lucid and credible, named names, and the information she gave that could be checked out did check out. The only alternatives are that (1) she was a complete and utter fraud from BEFORE THE JFKA (when she contacted the Secret Service) to her dying day or (2) she blows the LN narrative out of the water. There is really no in-between. And yet, she receives not much more attention than the Allright Parking Garage. What the heck, huh? Not only are there not 50 articles explaining all the ways she was a fraud (there really aren't any) but there doesn't seem to be any great enthusiasm within the CT community either.
FWIW, here are her 35 posts at the Ed Forum in the period 2004-2010. As always, she doesn't sound like a crackpot by any means.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/profile/631-adele-edisen/content/
The interesting part is, unlike JVB she really isn't central to her wild tale - she's not the "star." What is central is the stuff that Rivera dropped on her out of the blue months before the assassination - Oswald, Abt, the Trade Mart, the suicide of a close JFK friend (Stockdale). I can see why Michael B-C put a mystical spin on all this - it almost sounds like, rather than describing an assassination plot, Rivera was having a precognitive vision of the actual event.
What the heck, huh?
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Tom, having now dived into this I am perplexed at how little attention Adele receives. Everyone agrees that she had impeccable credentials, was absolutely lucid and credible, named names, and the information she gave that could be checked out did check out. The only alternatives are that (1) she was a complete and utter fraud from BEFORE THE JFKA (when she contacted the Secret Service) to her dying day or (2) she blows the LN narrative out of the water. There is really no in-between. And yet, she receives not much more attention than the Allright Parking Garage. What the heck, huh? Not only are there not 50 articles explaining all the ways she was a fraud (there really aren't any) but there doesn't seem to be any great enthusiasm within the CT community either.
FWIW, here are her 35 posts at the Ed Forum in the period 2004-2010. As always, she doesn't sound like a crackpot by any means.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/profile/631-adele-edisen/content/
The interesting part is, unlike JVB she really isn't central to her wild tale - she's not the "star." What is central is the stuff that Rivera dropped on her out of the blue months before the assassination - Oswald, Abt, the Trade Mart, the suicide of a close JFK friend (Stockdale). I can see why Michael B-C put a mystical spin on all this - it almost sounds like, rather than describing an assassination plot, Rivera was having a precognitive vision of the actual event.
What the heck, huh?
Lance, I'm attempting to PM you with some details she shared with me that seem too personal, even now, to post oublicly.
If you could please unblock me for a short window and I'll send them to you. It's been almost 16 years, but I think I
recovered relevant supporting links that existed in 2010.
Your POV as an attorney will be an advantage
to you, when you read what I'd like you to review.
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"While one of the pieces of physical evidence could conceivably have been faked by an expert, there is no possibility that an expert, or team of super-experts, could have fabricated the perfectly coordinated whole. This brings to mind the recurrent theme in most conspiracy books. All the officials alternate between the role of "Keystone Kops", with the inability to recognize the implications of the most elementary evidence, and "Evil Geniuses", with superhuman abilities to fake physical evidence that is in complete agreement with all the other faked evidence." -- Larry M. Sturdivan; Page 246 of "The JFK Myths: A Scientific Investigation Of The Kennedy Assassination"
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"Although the solutions proposed by [David] Lifton and [Michael] Eddowes are more farfetched than some, they use the same style of reasoning found in other conspiracy books. All these theories are based on unexplained discrepancies in the record. .... Alternative explanations and the overall pattern of the evidence are given little attention, if any." -- Jean Davison; Pages 274-275 of "Oswald's Game"
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"If firing those shots at JFK from the sixth floor (while using the Carcano rifle) was so utterly "impossible" (as many conspiracy theorists seem to think it truly was)....and if a large part of the assassination "plot" was to frame Lee Harvey Oswald....then why were the architects of the "frame-up plot" so reckless? Did they think (on 11/21/63) they could make people believe Oswald could really do the impossible?
In reality, of course, the shots from Oswald's sniper's perch were not difficult shots at all. All of the shots were under 90 yards. And even if LHO didn't use the scope, so what? He was trained to use a rifle in the military. And he compiled some pretty decent shooting statistics (while firing at targets a lot farther away than 88 yards). And he certainly didn't have the benefit of a four-power telescope to aid him when he attained the ranking of Sharpshooter in the Marines in 1956. So why would shooting at a target that was barely in motion at all (JFK's head), from a distance of under 90 yards, be such an arduous chore for a former Marine like Oswald?
In short, the notion that Oswald's shooting performance in Dallas on November 22, 1963, was more difficult than building the Pyramids is yet another conspiracy myth that was disproven decades ago. And yet the myth persists." -- DVP; June 27, 2015
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Lance, I'm attempting to PM you with some details she shared with me that seem too personal, even now, to post oublicly.
If you could please unblock me for a short window and I'll send them to you. It's been almost 16 years, but I think I
recovered relevant supporting links that existed in 2010.
Your POV as an attorney will be an advantage
to you, when you read what I'd like you to review.
Weird - I had no idea my profile was set to receive PMs from Administrators only. I fixed it.
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Weird - I had no idea my profile was set to receive PMs from Administrators only. I fixed it.
Thank you, Lance, check your inbox.
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It's easy (I know, because I've done it) to lob "common sense" LN sound bites at CTers because of their love of fantastically complex JFKA and cover-up scenarios. The CT community is its own worst enemy in this regard. That's why my threshold question is always "Does that make any real-world sense at all?" Often, the answer is no.
But there are CT scenarios that the LN sound bites really don't fit. They aren't ridiculously implausible. They don't violate common sense. If the CT community would focus on these and the most problematical aspects of the LN narrative, it would do itself and serious research a big favor. Alas, it seems that many CTers just can't help themselves.
Likewise, it's easy to lob CT sound bites at those who think the JFKA starts and ends with the WC and Bugliosi. EVEN IF THE LN NARRATIVE IS CORRECT, the WC was a badly flawed, agenda-driven "investigation" that is almost entirely responsible for what has transpired ever since. For multiple reasons, it was nothing like an objective, fact-finding investigation. If I were a LN advocate who wanted to be taken seriously, I would banish the WC and Bugliosi from my vocabulary. Alas, it seems that many LNers just can't help themselves.
It is just astonishing how closely JFKA discussions parallel religious debates. They never go anywhere either, for precisely the same reasons. The fundamentalists, heretics. cultists and atheists just talk past each other.
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It's easy (I know, because I've done it) to lob "common sense" LN sound bites at CTers because of their love of fantastically complex JFKA and cover-up scenarios. The CT community is its own worst enemy in this regard. That's why my threshold question is always "Does that make any real-world sense at all?" Often, the answer is no.
But there are CT scenarios that the LN sound bites really don't fit. They aren't ridiculously implausible. They don't violate common sense. If the CT community would focus on these and the most problematical aspects of the LN narrative, it would do itself and serious research a big favor. Alas, it seems that many CTers just can't help themselves.
Likewise, it's easy to lob CT sound bites at those who think the JFKA starts and ends with the WC and Bugliosi. EVEN IF THE LN NARRATIVE IS CORRECT, the WC was a badly flawed, agenda-driven "investigation" that is almost entirely responsible for what has transpired ever since. For multiple reasons, it was nothing like an objective, fact-finding investigation. If I were a LN advocate who wanted to be taken seriously, I would banish the WC and Bugliosi from my vocabulary. Alas, it seems that many LNers just can't help themselves.
It is just astonishing how closely JFKA discussions parallel religious debates. They never go anywhere either, for precisely the same reasons. The fundamentalists, heretics. cultists and atheists just talk past each other.
Though both sides of a religious discussion will point to evidence, it largely comes down to a matter of faith which is why I never argue about religion with anyone. Whatever someone else wants to believe, if they are content with it, who am I to tell them they are wrong.
The JFKA has a wealth of evidence which needs to be looked at objectively. When I see people who start with a preconceived conclusion and then dismiss or accept the evidence based on whether the evidence fits their chosen conclusion, I have no problem telling those people they are wrong.
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(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6kYzhJGqq2M/TIBzsb7K4II/AAAAAAAAFOg/rOqYK4J4FSo/s670/XX.+Quoting+Common+Sense+Blog+Logo.png) (https://quoting-common-sense.blogspot.com)
Reprinted below are some excerpts from my website linked above.
Feel free to add your own comments and JFKA observations, but don't forget to include the Common Sense with each comment. That's very important in this thread....
--------------------------------
"Given the alignment of the two limo victims at the time of the shooting, plus the location of the only known shooter in Dealey Plaza, plus the fact that no bullets were found in JFK's body at all, plus the fact that a whole bullet which positively came out of the gun that was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD was found inside the hospital where the two victims were taken, plus the fact that the two injured limo victims reacted to an external stimulus at precisely the same moment in time on the Zapruder Film....I wonder how anyone in 2022 (or any other year or millennium) can be so blind as to not accept the Single-Bullet Theory as fact." -- David Von Pein [DVP]; September 28, 2022
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"If there is a suspicious fire, the [conspiracy-minded] kooks would investigate the firemen who respond, and ignore the guy with the wicked grin that smells of gasoline." -- Bud; November 22, 2007
(https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjLlOH9B0s1qGnNAxjIVpOAQJ0ooF6ODssYlOqIXTPOqZJ5FHRHpPmh2n0rFu0p-3GBlwh7Dsb-YV-xJnf8U2rtSjZNrO5GDTHhclapg_eoxsO6hyf-H3n9Lcnp2X9MfV8hI_2R0wj_hzA/s1600/LOL.gif)
[More to come....]
My COMMON SENSE tells me that the simple fact that Oswald made it out of the Depository building alive and then wandered the streets of Dallas and Oak Cliff taking busses and taxis... proves that he was no patsy.
I can see it now. In the pre-assassination meetings at the Conspiracies 'R' Us offices, the man sitting at the important end of the table decides that it is perfectly okay to allow the patsy to wander around on his own. Laughable.
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My COMMON SENSE tells me that the simple fact that Oswald made it out of the Depository building alive and then wandered the streets of Dallas and Oak Cliff taking busses and taxis... proves that he was no patsy.
I can see it now. In the pre-assassination meetings at the Conspiracies 'R' Us offices, the man sitting at the important end of the table decides that it is perfectly okay to allow the patsy to wander around on his own. Laughable.
Isn't it fun to create your own speculative narrative and then dismiss it as laughable.
If there was a conspiracy, Oswald must have been part of it in some way, but - and this is also a speculative scenario - he could well have not been aware of what actually was going on.
If he was the patsy, the evidence would have made him so, regardless if he "escaped" from the TSBD and wandered around town or not.