JFK Assassination Forum
The JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on June 15, 2026, 02:19:26 AM
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What five anomalies have complicated the JFKA investigation over the years?
Here are five I can think of:
1) The fact that JFK and JBC disappeared from Zapruder's view behind the Stemmons Freeway sign about the time that at least one shot was fired.
2) The fact that Zapruder didn't resume filming until the limo was about 100 feet down Elm Street.
3) The fact that the interrogations of Oswald weren't tape-recorded.
4) The fact that the doctors at Parkland, in a futile attempt to keep JFK alive, preformed "a trach" and thereby obscured a bullet wound in his neck.
5) The fact that the physicians who performed the autopsy on JFK weren't very qualified and were under pressure to do it quickly.
And here are three more for good measure:
6) Zapruder's camera didn't have audio.
7) The pergolas and tall buildings. etc., in Dealy Plaza created different echoes in different places.
8 ) The fact that the kind of bullet that's fired by LHO's kind of Carcano short-rifle have a tendency to start yawing/tumbling upon exiting something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck.
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What five anomalies have complicated the JFKA investigation over the years?
Here are five I can think of:
1) The fact that JFK and JBC disappeared from Zapruder's view behind the Stemmons Freeway sign about the time that at least one shot was fired.
2) The fact that Zapruder didn't resume filming until the limo was about 100 feet down Elm Street.
3) The fact that the interrogations of Oswald weren't tape-recorded.
4) The fact that the doctors at Parkland, in a futile attempt to keep JFK alive, preformed "a trach" and thereby obscured a bullet wound in his neck.
5) The fact that the physicians who performed the autopsy on JFK weren't very qualified and were under pressure to do it quickly.
6) Illegal removal of body from Dallas. I still don’t know exactly who decided that. Earl Rose gave better autopsies to Tippit, Oswald and Ruby than JFK received at Bethesda. The attending physicians were right there to answer any questions.
7) Kennedy family interference with the autopsy to prevent disclosure of JFK’s illnesses and to get it over with. Plus RFK having autopsy materials that were denied to everyone else.
8) A premature emphasis on the lone nut scenario excluding other areas of inquiry.
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8 ) A premature emphasis on the lone nut scenario excluding other areas of inquiry.
LOL!
Till the cows come home?
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What five anomalies have complicated the JFKA investigation over the years?
Here are five I can think of:
1) The fact that JFK and JBC disappeared from Zapruder's view behind the Stemmons Freeway sign about the time that at least one shot was fired.
2) The fact that Zapruder didn't resume filming until the limo was about 100 feet down Elm Street.
3) The fact that the interrogations of Oswald weren't tape-recorded.
4) The fact that the doctors at Parkland, in a futile attempt to keep JFK alive, preformed "a trach" and thereby obscured a bullet wound in his neck.
5) The fact that the physicians who performed the autopsy on JFK weren't very qualified and were under pressure to do it quickly.
And here are three more for good measure:
6) Zapruder's camera didn't have audio.
7) The pergolas and tall buildings. etc., in Dealy Plaza created different echoes in different places.
8 ) The fact that the kind of bullet that's fired by LHO's kind of Carcano short-rifle have a tendency to start yawing/tumbling upon exiting something soft -- like a block of ballistics gel or a human neck.
(9) The "Pristine" Bullet was actually traveling "BACKWARD", per John Corbett. :D
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I would have to say:
10) The Huge Gates being left open.
11) Officer Haygood having the affrontery to remove one of his gloves.
12) Umbrella Man doing whatever he was doing.
On #12, I happened to be reading a book that had nothing to do with the JFKA. The symbolism of the umbrella in relation to Neville Chamberlain and Joe Kennedy was FAR more prevalent than those of us who weren't alive during WW2 might realize. There were umpteen political cartoons with the umbrella symbolism. As utterly goofy as it sounds now, Louie Steven Witt's little protest would not have been nearly as obscure in 1963 as it seems now.
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I would have to say:
10) The Huge Gates being left open.
11) Officer Haygood having the affrontery to remove one of his gloves.
12) Umbrella Man doing whatever he was doing.
On #12, I happened to be reading a book that had nothing to do with the JFKA. The symbolism of the umbrella in relation to Neville Chamberlain and Joe Kennedy was FAR more prevalent than those of us who weren't alive during WW2 might realize. There were umpteen political cartoons with the umbrella symbolism. As utterly goofy as it sounds now, Louie Steven Witt's little protest would not have been nearly as obscure in 1963 as it seems now.
There’s a book out that says UM was covertly filming the assassination in order to help alter the Zapruder film which implies Zapruder was in on the assassination. Crazy as it is, it makes more sense (at least the filming part) than the signalman or dart shooting theories.The umbrella does rotate as if following the limo. But that is just because the man holding it was undoubtedly doing the same.
But I think the umbrella was used as a symbol.
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There’s a book out that says UM was covertly filming the assassination in order to help alter the Zapruder film which implies Zapruder was in on the assassination. Crazy as it is, it makes more sense (at least the filming part) than the signalman or dart shooting theories.The umbrella does rotate as if following the limo. But that is just because the man holding it was undoubtedly doing the same.
But I think the umbrella was used as a symbol.
That's no crazier than a lot of other crap the CTs have floated the past 62 years.
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Outside of gangland lore, it is anomalous that LHO, who may have murdered JFK, was then himself murdered but two days later.
That is certainly an unusual arrangement of events.
The LHO snuff job prevented a sustained interrogation of LHO, and a possible confession.
And prevented a trial, which might have brought out clarifying or alternative narratives.
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There’s a book out that says UM was covertly filming the assassination in order to help alter the Zapruder film which implies Zapruder was in on the assassination. Crazy as it is, it makes more sense (at least the filming part) than the signalman or dart shooting theories.The umbrella does rotate as if following the limo. But that is just because the man holding it was undoubtedly doing the same.
But I think the umbrella was used as a symbol.
So Abe was in on the assassination, filming it so his film could be altered later, and Louie was making his film to assist in the altering of Abe's film ... which obviously did not have to be made at all and would not have to have been altered if it had not been made. And this was all done because the conspirators wanted a film of the assassination so that, after having been altered, it would conclusively show there was no frontal gunman as long as no one ever spotted the alterations. And Abe was allowed to live until 1970, and Louie until he was 90, and Louie came forward voluntarily in 1978, because this all deflected suspicion from what had actually taken place.
"Have I got that right, Perry?"
"Exactly, Della."
Roll the credits.
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(9) The "Pristine" Bullet was actually traveling "BACKWARD", per John Corbett. :D
Yup. That's what the evidence indicates.
A pristine bullet is one that hasn't hit anything. CE399 ceased being a pristine bullet once it entered JFK's back. A Carcano bullet does not remain stable after passing through soft tissue. It will tumble which explains why it is damaged at the base of it rather than the nose. This isn't exactly rocket science.
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Forrest Sorrels, the Secret Service agent in Dallas, drove around with Zapruder trying to find someone who could develop the film and then another group who could make copies. Then after making copies they went back to Kodak (the first group) to develop those. The obvious act would have been to immediately take the camera from Zapruder and send it to Washington for examination. Don't let him develop it, don't let others see it, don't let him make copies that you'd have to control.
Instead, Sorrels "allowed" Zapruder to develop and keep the in camera original, make three first generation copies, and let probably a dozen or more people see the film before obtaining it. It being two *copies* and NOT the original. He allowed Zapruder to keep the original and one copy.
Here's a nice summary. "Erwin" was Erwin Schwartz, Zapruder's business partner.
(https://www.drivehq.com/file/DFPublishFile.aspx/FileID13564179779/Keync937tcbr1xf/kodak.jpg)
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Yup. That's what the evidence indicates.
A pristine bullet is one that hasn't hit anything. CE399 ceased being a pristine bullet once it entered JFK's back. A Carcano bullet does not remain stable after passing through soft tissue. It will tumble which explains why it is damaged at the base of it rather than the nose. This isn't exactly rocket science.
Tying yourself to the mast Never ends well.
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JFK's brain doing a runner.
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Tying yourself to the mast Never ends well.
I guess when you can't refute what I wrote, you resort to nonsense like this.
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I guess when you can't refute what I wrote, you resort to nonsense like this.
Why would I attempt to "refute" your foolish position of the Pristine Bullet traveling BACKWARD. That automatically fails on its' face. My point is you're taking the position of, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it". You're stuck like a captain onna ship going down.
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Why would I attempt to "refute" your foolish position of the Pristine Bullet traveling BACKWARD. That automatically fails on its' face. My point is you're taking the position of, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it". You're stuck like a captain onna ship going down.
Dear Royell,
We know CE-399 was already tumbling when it penetrated JBC's back and then traveled several inches along his fifth rib and shattered it before it exited his chest.
Given that, why in the world couldn't it have been tumbling/twirling when it penetrated his wrist, and done so butt-end-first?
-- Tom
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Dear Royell,
We know CE-399 was already tumbling when it penetrated JBC's back and then traveled several inches along his fifth rib and shattered it before it exited his chest.
Given that, why in the world couldn't it have been tumbling/twirling when it penetrated his wrist, and done so butt-end-first?
-- Tom
We know CE-399 was already tumbling when it penetrated JBC's back
And "we" know this how, exactly?
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Dear Royell,
We know CE-399 was already tumbling when it penetrated JBC's back and then traveled several inches along his fifth rib and shattered it before it exited his chest.
Given that, why in the world couldn't it have been tumbling/twirling when it penetrated his wrist, and done so butt-end-first?
-- Tom
I am sure you Know the difference between "TUMBLING" vs Moving "BACKWARD". Stop trying to circle the wagons here, he got it wrong. Unless, you too want to claim the Pristine Bullet was moving BACKWARD? And they used to laugh at Dr. Cyril Wecht when he would describe the zig-zag path of the Pristine Bullet. This "BACKWARD" moving Pristine Bullet stuff exceeds Wecht by far.
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TG-
This is a photo of the small round hole in the rear of Gov. JBC's assassination-day shirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzVm1xMC/Screen-Shot-2569-06-16-at-07-45-56.png)
This small round shirt-hole was actually enlarged twice, legitimately, once by the FBI and once by the HSCA, to test cloth for metallic residue. The initial hole was even smaller, but unfortunately it appears there are no photos of the original, even smaller hole.
JBC's surgeon, Dr. Robert Shaw, who worked on 700-odd wartime bullet wounds while serving in the WWII Army, was of the opinion that JBC received a direct shot from above and behind, which left an ovoid wound, north-south on JBC's back, per his drawing of the wound.
Shaw expanded or debrided JBC's back wound to remove dead flesh and any foreign material, leading to confusion about the actual size of initial wound later.
In addition, the exit hole in JBC's assassination-day suit is also small and round, indicating the slug was not tumbling as it exited JBC.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jDrxbBG/Screen-Shot-2569-06-16-at-07-46-23.png)
I conclude the slug that struck Gov. JBC's back was not tumbling, in concordance with the sentiments of Dr. Shaw, a very experienced surgeon, with no evident axes to grind.
The "tumbling bullet" appears to be among the many myths subscribed to by LNT'ers, or CT'ers, regarding the JFKA, in order to buttress their narratives.
https://www.tsl.texas.gov/lobbyexhibits/jfk-suit
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Why would I attempt to "refute" your foolish position of the Pristine Bullet traveling BACKWARD.
Yes why would you when you can't.
That automatically fails on its' face.
How so? Do you dispute that a Carcano bullet will tumble upon exiting from soft tissue?
My point is you're taking the position of, "That's my story and I'm sticking to it". You're stuck like a captain onna ship going down.
My ship isn't going down. It's been afloat for 62 years. In that time I've seen a lot of conspiracy theories end up in Davy Jones's locker. I'll keep sticking to my story until somebody comes up with a better one that is based on real evidence and not conjecture. After 62 years, I see little chance of that happening.
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Yes why would you when you can't.
How so? Do you dispute that a Carcano bullet will tumble upon exiting from soft tissue?
My ship isn't going down. It's been afloat for 62 years. In that time I've seen a lot of conspiracy theories end up in Davy Jones's locker. I'll keep sticking to my story until somebody comes up with a better one that is based on real evidence and not conjecture. After 62 years, I see little chance of that happening.
So NOW you want to try and shift your description of the bullet path to "tumble"? Just admit you Boned it and got carried away with your "BACKWARD" description.
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TG-
This is a photo of the small round hole in the rear of Gov. JBC's assassination-day shirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzVm1xMC/Screen-Shot-2569-06-16-at-07-45-56.png)
This small round shirt-hole was actually enlarged twice, legitimately, once by the FBI and once by the HSCA, to test cloth for metallic residue. The initial hole was even smaller, but unfortunately it appears there are no photos of the original, even smaller hole.
JBC's surgeon, Dr. Robert Shaw, who worked on 700-odd wartime bullet wounds while serving in the WWII Army, was of the opinion that JBC received a direct shot from above and behind, which left an ovoid wound, north-south on JBC's back, per his drawing of the wound.
Shaw described the wound as “elliptical” which is a symmetrical shape, not “ovoid” or egg-shaped, which is not symmetrical. SBT proponents suggest the two terms are interchangeable. They are not.
An elliptical shaped entry wound is made by a pristine bullet striking the skin surface at an angle other than 90 degrees. An ovoid shape can be made by a yawing bullet. A yawing or tumbling bullet cannot make a symmetrical elliptical entry wound.
Shaw expanded or debrided JBC's back wound to remove dead flesh and any foreign material, leading to confusion about the actual size of initial wound later.
In addition, the exit hole in JBC's assassination-day suit is also small and round, indicating the slug was not tumbling as it exited JBC.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jDrxbBG/Screen-Shot-2569-06-16-at-07-46-23.png)
I conclude the slug that struck Gov. JBC's back was not tumbling, in concordance with the sentiments of Dr. Shaw, a very experienced surgeon, with no evident axes to grind.
Shaw also described the missile having made a “small tunnelling wound” (7 HSCA 149).
The "tumbling bullet" appears to be among the many myths subscribed to by LNT'ers, or CT'ers, regarding the JFKA, in order to buttress their narratives.
https://www.tsl.texas.gov/lobbyexhibits/jfk-suit
Although I am not a CT by any means, I agree that the evidence against the SBT is substantial.
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So NOW you want to try and shift your description of the bullet path to "tumble"? Just admit you Boned it and got carried away with your "BACKWARD" description.
I'll type slower this time to make it easier for you to follow. In order for the bullet to strike JBC's wrist while traveling backward, it would have to tumble into that orientation. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive. One depends on the other.
Now, I ask you again. Do you deny that a Carcano bullet will tumble (or yaw if you prefer that term) upon exiting soft tissue?
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I'll type slower this time to make it easier for you to follow. In order for the bullet to strike JBC's wrist while traveling backward, it would have to tumble into that orientation. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive. One depends on the other.
Now, I ask you again. Do you deny that a Carcano bullet will tumble (or yaw if you prefer that term) upon exiting soft tissue?
Have you ever watched a "TUMBLING Team"? Do you believe they are facing, "BACKWARD"?
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Have you ever watched a "TUMBLING Team"? Do you believe they are facing, "BACKWARD"?
You answered a question with a question. I'll try a third time.
Do you deny that a Carcano bullet will tumble when exiting soft tissue?
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A bullet tumbling backwards.
(https://gunanalyst.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/Bullet-Tumbling.webp)
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You answered a question with a question. I'll try a third time.
Do you deny that a Carcano bullet will tumble when exiting soft tissue?
YOU claimed the Pristine Bullet was traveling "BACKWARD". And now you are trying to run away from that. I'm holding you to what YOU said.
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YOU claimed the Pristine Bullet was traveling "BACKWARD". And now you are trying to run away from that. I'm holding you to what YOU said.
Yes it was traveling backwards after it had tumbled 180 degrees. IOW, the base was out front and the nose of the bullet was trailing. I guess it's my fault for not dumbing down the explanation enough so you could understand but Stephen Galbrath tried to help you out with a picture of a tumbling bullet but even that doesn't seem to have sunk in. I don't know what else we can do to help you out.
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YOU claimed the Pristine Bullet was traveling "BACKWARD". And now you are trying to run away from that. I'm holding you to what YOU said.
To be fair, I think what was being suggested that the bullet was tumbling (rotating about its transverse axis) and, therefore, travelling backward for just an instant in time every rotation. If a pristine bullet is tumbling, it would have to have become unstable while passing through air. The MC FMJ bullets did not do that in passing through a few hundred feet of air. I don't see anyone suggesting that a pristine bullet was tumbling. You said it was being suggested but I don't see where anyone else argued that.