JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on March 09, 2026, 12:45:49 PM
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"If you read the explanation of why there was not enough time for Oswald to have done all the things that the Warren Commission credited him with doing between the time he entered the bus near the Depository and shooting Tippit, you would conclude that all the witnesses in the case had assembled on the morning of November 22 to synchronize their watches and take a pledge to check them at crucial moments as the day's events unfolded.
The reality is that, like the spring-driven clocks in most people's houses in 1963, what would have been the crucial clocks and watches probably varied in the time they showed by several minutes."
Larry Sturdivan
(The JFK Myths, 2005, pg. 179)
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Exactly. Almost nothing Oswald did during the roughly 45 minutes between the time he shot JFK and the time he shot Tippit was time stamped. That includes his encounter with Officer Baker in the lunchroom. We know he shot JFK at 12:30 because that is the time showing on the Hertz clock above the TSBD. The next accurate time stamp was when a citizen used Tippit's radio to report the shooting of Tippit. Everything else is an estimate and many of those estimates were not even made at the time of the event. They were made when people were asked about it later. For example, Earlene Roberts was asked what time Oswald showed up at the rooming house. Her answer was ABOUT 1:00. People aren't in the habit of time stamping mundane events and when they make estimates, they usually round the time. Who would ever say "about 12:57"? Without accurate time records, no one can say what was or was not possible.
Prediction: Conspiracy theorists will largely ignore this post. They don't like to deal with issues that challenge their preferred narrative.
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Exactly. Almost nothing Oswald did during the roughly 45 minutes between the time he shot JFK and the time he shot Tippit was time stamped. That includes his encounter with Officer Baker in the lunchroom. We know he shot JFK at 12:30 because that is the time showing on the Hertz clock above the TSBD. The next accurate time stamp was when a citizen used Tippit's radio to report the shooting of Tippit. Everything else is an estimate and many of those estimates were not even made at the time of the event. They were made when people were asked about it later. For example, Earlene Roberts was asked what time Oswald showed up at the rooming house. Her answer was ABOUT 1:00. People aren't in the habit of time stamping mundane events and when they make estimates, they usually round the time. Who would ever say "about 12:57"? Without accurate time records, no one can say what was or was not possible.
Prediction: Conspiracy theorists will largely ignore this post. They don't like to deal with issues that challenge their preferred narrative.
Without accurate time records, no one can say what was or was not possible.
And yet here you are basically telling us what was possible based on the assumption that the Hertz clock and a time stamp on a questionable DPD recording were accurate. Go figure!
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:D Nobody knows what time it is in Dallas, 1963.
Yet, wall clocks were electric and mechanical watches were accurate within 10-30sec. on a day
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:D Nobody knows what time it is in Dallas, 1963.
Yet, wall clocks were electric and mechanical watches were accurate within 10-30sec. on a day
So then the Dallas Police dispatch verbal time stamps are indeed accurate. I agree.
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Without accurate time records, no one can say what was or was not possible.
And yet here you are basically telling us what was possible based on the assumption that the Hertz clock and a time stamp on a questionable DPD recording were accurate. Go figure!
I'm not making any assumptions regarding the timing. My beliefs are based on physical evidence that places Oswald in the sniper's nest when JFK was shot and at 10th and Patton when Tippit was shot. It is the conspiracy theorists who try to make the argument that it would have been impossible for Oswald to be at 10th and Patton when Tippit was shot. To make that argument, they treat every time estimate as if it is an established fact. That makes no sense. Without ACCURATE time stamps, such calculations are an exercise in futility.
The shells found in the sniper's nest could only have been fired by the rifle found on the 6th floor to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world and for which there is ample evidence Oswald owned and used the rifle. The shells found at the scene of the Tippit murder could only have been fired by the revolver Oswald had in his possession when arrested to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. That argument does not depend either on the accuracy of the Hertz clock or of the DPD log.
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So then the Dallas Police dispatch verbal time stamps are indeed accurate. I agree.
Good for you. But were not synced with the master clock on the telephone room wall connected to the City Hall system.
telephone operators and radio operators were furnished with inaccurate "Simplex" clocks.
https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html
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Good for you. But were not synced with the master clock on the telephone room wall connected to the City Hall system.
telephone operators and radio operators were furnished with inaccurate "Simplex" clocks.
https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles1.html
Dear Mike,
Regarding the JFKA (the Tippit shooting included), how many evil, evil Deep State bad guys do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the planting of evidence, the patsy-ing, the planting of evidence, the shooting, the planting of evidence, the getting away, the planting of evidence, the altering of all of the photos, films, and X-rays, the planting of evidence, and the all-important (and evidently continuing!!!) cover up?
Oodles and gobs, or just a few?
-- Tom
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Dear Mike,
Regarding the JFKA (the Tippit shooting included), how many evil, evil Deep State bad guys do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the planting of evidence, the patsy-ing, the planting of evidence, the shooting, the planting of evidence, the getting away, the planting of evidence, the altering of all of the photos, films, and X-rays, the planting of evidence, and the all-important (and evidently continuing!!!) cover up?
Oodles and gobs, or just a few?
-- Tom
How about less than one.
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I'm not making any assumptions regarding the timing. My beliefs are based on physical evidence that places Oswald in the sniper's nest when JFK was shot and at 10th and Patton when Tippit was shot. It is the conspiracy theorists who try to make the argument that it would have been impossible for Oswald to be at 10th and Patton when Tippit was shot. To make that argument, they treat every time estimate as if it is an established fact. That makes no sense. Without ACCURATE time stamps, such calculations are an exercise in futility.
The shells found in the sniper's nest could only have been fired by the rifle found on the 6th floor to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world and for which there is ample evidence Oswald owned and used the rifle. The shells found at the scene of the Tippit murder could only have been fired by the revolver Oswald had in his possession when arrested to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. That argument does not depend either on the accuracy of the Hertz clock or of the DPD log.
I'm not making any assumptions regarding the timing.
Of course you are. You wrote;
We know he shot JFK at 12:30 because that is the time showing on the Hertz clock above the TSBD. The next accurate time stamp was when a citizen used Tippit's radio to report the shooting of Tippit.
What conclusive evidence do you have that the Hertz clock was absolutely correct and that the verbal time stamps on the DPD recordings provide actual real time, when James Bowles, the man in charge of the dispatchers, clearly states that (and I paraphraze) there were discrepancies and the time stamps called out did not reflect real time?
Bill quoted Larry Sturdivan;
The reality is that, like the spring-driven clocks in most people's houses in 1963, what would have been the crucial clocks and watches probably varied in the time they showed by several minutes."
I would agree with Larry, but my question for you is; do you consider what Bowles said to be incorrect?
My beliefs are based on physical evidence that places Oswald in the sniper's nest when JFK was shot and at 10th and Patton when Tippit was shot.
Your beliefs are not facts. There is no conclusive physical evidence that places Oswald on either location. You are using your imagination and pure circular reasoning!
It is the conspiracy theorists who try to make the argument that it would have been impossible for Oswald to be at 10th and Patton when Tippit was shot.
I don't know if he was there or not, but I do have a problem with the argument that he was there when evidence that he might not have been and that Tippit was actually shot earlier is simply ignored or dismissed.
To make that argument, they treat every time estimate as if it is an established fact.
Just like you do when you seem to accept the estimate that Tippit was shot between 1.14 and 1.15 when there is no conclusive evidence for that time at all!
Now, let me be clear; if Tippit was indeed shot between 1.14 and 1.15, Oswald most certainly could have been at 10th and Patton, if he left the rooming house at just after 1 PM.
But if Tippit was shot earlier, between - let's say 1.06 and 1.08 - there is no way he could physically have been there (if he walked or even ran), which would mean that the witnesses who identified him at the questionable line ups were wrong.
Now, before you dismiss the latter possibility, have you considered the evidence that supports the finding of an earlier time for Tippit's shooting?
The shells found in the sniper's nest could only have been fired by the rifle found on the 6th floor to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world and for which there is ample evidence Oswald owned and used the rifle. The shells found at the scene of the Tippit murder could only have been fired by the revolver Oswald had in his possession when arrested to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. That argument does not depend either on the accuracy of the Hertz clock or of the DPD log.
True, it does not depend on that. Instead it depends completely on an absolute willingness to believe anything you want to believe and not looking more closely and critically at the actual evidence and the way it was handled.
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I'm not making any assumptions regarding the timing.
Of course you are. You wrote;
What conclusive evidence do you have that the Hertz clock was absolutely correct and that the verbal time stamps on the DPD recordings provide actual real time, when James Bowles, the man in charge of the dispatchers, clearly states that (and I paraphraze) there were discrepancies and the time stamps called out did not reflect real time?
Once again, my beliefs do not depend on the accuracy of any time keeping device. It is widely accepted that 12:30 was the time of the first shot but even if it was actually 12:29 or 12:31, it does nothing to invalidate the conclusion that Oswald fired the shots that killed JFK and severely wounded JBC and in 62 years, no one has produced a scrap of credible evidence that he had even a single accomplice in his crime. My beliefs are based on the forensic evidence: ballistics, fingerprints, fiber evidence, paper trails, photographic evidence, medical evidence, etc. Taken as a whole, this evidence leaves no doubt Oswald was the assassin and much as they have tried for the past 62 years, the conspiracy hobbyists have done nothing that invalidates that conclusion.
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Once again, my beliefs do not depend on the accuracy of any time keeping device. It is widely accepted that 12:30 was the time of the first shot but even if it was actually 12:29 or 12:31, it does nothing to invalidate the conclusion that Oswald fired the shots that killed JFK and severely wounded JBC and in 62 years, no one has produced a scrap of credible evidence that he had even a single accomplice in his crime. My beliefs are based on the forensic evidence: ballistics, fingerprints, fiber evidence, paper trails, photographic evidence, medical evidence, etc. Taken as a whole, this evidence leaves no doubt Oswald was the assassin and much as they have tried for the past 62 years, the conspiracy hobbyists have done nothing that invalidates that conclusion.
Once again, my beliefs do not depend on the accuracy of any time keeping device.
I never said that your beliefs depend on the accuracy of time keeping devices. I said that you are making assumptions regarding the timing.
It is widely accepted that 12:30 was the time of the first shot but even if it was actually 12:29 or 12:31,
Widely accepted by whom? All I asked you is what evidence you have that the Hertz clock was absolutely correct! You clearly have none!
"Widely accepted" is nothing more than a belief or theory! But I agree, it doesn't really matter all that much if the Hertz clock was of by a minute or so. What does matter is being precise about a belief that you claim to be a "fact".
it does nothing to invalidate the conclusion that Oswald fired the shots that killed JFK and severely wounded JBC
I never said it invalidates anything. It doesn't have to... the "conclusion" that Oswald fired the shots is nothing more than another belief for which there is no conclusive supporting evidence.
In 62 years nobody has ever been able to place Oswald in the sniper's nest when the shots were fired beyond speculation, assumptions and a rush to judgement.
But let's get back to the timing matter, shall we? Your diversions aren't working! You said;
We know he shot JFK at 12:30 because that is the time showing on the Hertz clock above the TSBD. The next accurate time stamp was when a citizen used Tippit's radio to report the shooting of Tippit.
Now you say; "even if it was actually 12:29 or 12:31", which clearly indicates that you were not as sure as you pretended to be. Even more telling is that you have stayed well clear of any of my questions relating to the Tippit shooting. My question about what James Bowles said about the time stamps on the DPD recordings was apparently too problematic for you to come up with a plausible answer, but don't worry; it's common for LNs to run as soon as a critical question is asked.
My beliefs are based on the forensic evidence: ballistics, fingerprints, fiber evidence, paper trails, photographic evidence, medical evidence, etc.
Wow, that really sounds impressive if it wasn't for the fact that it's still merely your belief. At best, this entire case is highly circumstantial and different people will come to different opinions based upon the same evidence. In circumstantial cases innocent people get convicted and guilty people walk free. So, what makes your belief the right one?
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So, what makes your belief the right one?
How about the fact that multiple expert panels have examined the evidence and overwhelmingly concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin?
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How about the fact that multiple expert panels have examined the evidence and overwhelmingly concluded that Oswald was the lone assassin?
Oh boy, there is the appeal to authority. You do understand that's a fallacy, right?
Please tell me which ones of those panels were unbiased and independent?
And here's something for you to consider; The Warren Commission provided the evidence which was subsequently examined over and over again.
Isn't it a fool's errand to examine the same information and expect a different outcome?
Name me one truly independent investigation which looked beyond the evidence of the prosecution and looked for evidence that should have been there but wasn't! I bet you can't
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Oh boy, there is the appeal to authority. You do understand that's a fallacy, right?
Please tell me which ones of those panels were unbiased and independent?
And here's something for you to consider; The Warren Commission provided the evidence which was subsequently examined over and over again.
Isn't it a fool's errand to examine the same information and expect a different outcome?
Name me one truly independent investigation which looked beyond the evidence of the prosecution and looked for evidence that should have been there but wasn't! I bet you can't
Dear Marty,
Regarding the JFKA (the Tippit shooting included), how many evil, evil Deep State bad guys do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the patsy-ing, the planting of evidence, the shooting, the getting away, the altering of all of the photos, films, and X-rays, and the all-important (and evidently ongoing!) cover up?
Oodles and gobs, or just a few?
-- Tom
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Dear Marty,
Regarding the JFKA (the Tippit shooting included), how many evil, evil Deep State bad guys do you figure were involved, altogether, in the planning, the patsy-ing, the planting of evidence, the shooting, the getting away, the altering of all of the photos, films, and X-rays, and the all-important (and evidently ongoing!) cover up?
Oodles and gobs, or just a few?
-- Tom
What "evil Deep State bad guys" are you talking about, precisely?
the planting of evidence
Are you claiming evidence was planted?
the altering of all of the photos, films, and X-rays, and the all-important (and evidently ongoing!) cover up?
Are you claiming there was evidence alteration and a cover up?
Btw, can you name me one truly independent investigation which looked beyond the evidence of the prosecution and looked for evidence that should have been there but wasn't?
Or are you just still trolling?
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What "evil Deep State bad guys" are you talking about, precisely?
the planting of evidence
Are you claiming evidence was planted?
the altering of all of the photos, films, and X-rays, and the all-important (and evidently ongoing!) cover up?
Are you claiming there was evidence alteration and a cover up?
Btw, can you name me one truly independent investigation which looked beyond the evidence of the prosecution and looked for evidence that should have been there but wasn't?
Or are you just still trolling?
Dear Marty,
The vast majority of KGB-influenced tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists are adamant that Oswald was "patsied," that there was more than one shooter, that evidence was planted, that photos, films and X-rays were altered, and that the "coverup" is continuing!
Aren't you?
-- Tom
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Dear Marty,
The vast majority of KGB-influenced tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists are adamant that Oswald was "patsied," that there was more than one shooter, that evidence was planted, that photos, films and X-rays were altered, and that the "coverup" is continuing!
Aren't you?
-- Tom
The vast majority of KGB-influenced tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists are adamant that Oswald was "patsied,"
Are they?
So, you just figured you could generalize it?
Are you one of those silly people who actually believes that if somebody doesn't instantly and superficially accepts the BS you believe in, must be a "conspiracy theorist" (whatever that means)?
If you want to have a conversation with me, why don't you simply answer my questions and we'll take it from there.
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The vast majority of KGB-influenced tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists are adamant that Oswald was "patsied."
Are they? So, you just figured you could generalize it?
So, are you denying that the vast majority of JFK-influenced tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists believe Oswald was "patsied" Mr. Rhetorical?
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So . . . we have to disregard all testimony and witnesses whose evidence conflicts with the WC and accept all the testimony from other wideness who were also looking at "spring loaded clocks"?
Well! That was easy!
Next!
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So . . . we have to disregard all testimony and witnesses whose evidence conflicts with the WC and accept all the testimony from other wideness who were also looking at "spring loaded clocks"?
Well! That was easy!
Next!
No, not at all!
You can incorporate all of the fringe anti-WC stuff you want!
But unfortunately, you'll end up with a tinfoil-hat CT that requires oodles and gobs of evil, evil "Deep State" bad guys.
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So, are you denying that the vast majority of JFK-influenced tinfoil-hat JFKA conspiracy theorists believe Oswald was "patsied" Mr. Rhetorical?
So, you don't really want to have a conversation and are merely trolling.
I'm not wasting my time on your nonsense. Bye!
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No, not at all!
You can incorporate all of the fringe anti-WC stuff you want!
But unfortunately, you'll end up with a tinfoil-hat CT that requires oodles and gobs of evil, evil "Deep State" bad guys.
And with this comment he actually confirms that the evidence the WC ignored or misrepresented does indeed lead to a possible conspiracy conclusion. Thumb1:
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And with this comment he actually confirms that the evidence the WC ignored or misrepresented does indeed lead to a possible conspiracy conclusion. Thumb1:
Knock yourself out, Weidmann.