JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: James Hackerott on September 17, 2025, 06:26:07 PM
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20250917 Revision of my Shelley-Lovelady-Arce post from 2018 (Prayer Woman thread). The calculated heights were not revised.
Alan Ford
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #955 on: July 01, 2018, 01:29:48 PM »
I'm pretty sure the man in black in Couch is not Bill Shelley but Danny Arce!
Alan,
That looks like a great call, as the determined heights of Bill Shelley and Danny Arce will show.
Using my Dealey Plaza 3D model I measured the apparent heights for Arce, Williams, and Shelley as they are escorted to a police car. In the animation I included Billy Lovelady popping-in next to Shelley for the group photo. Results for their heights are as follows:
Arce 5'11
Williams 6' 2.5
Detective 5' 9
Lovelady 5' 8.5 (from other sources)
Shelley 5'6
(https://i.imgur.com/MURmcQB.gif)
The next animation compares a 58.5 Lovelady with a 56 Shelley and 511 Danny Arce with a Couch frame. To make these renderings I used my on-site measurement for the curb height of 9. I also added a Lovelady stand-in, who's calculated height does fit nicely with the alleged Lovelady in Couch. The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.
(https://i.imgur.com/AdbEb8C.gif)
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The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.
(https://i.imgur.com/AdbEb8C.gif)
James,
Was Arce wearing a suit that day, as the "Shelley" figure appears to be doing in the enlarged high-rez frame and the cropped-and-enhanced frames from Couch-Darnell that you can see by scrolling down a bit in this article at a certain website?
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
-- Tom
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James,
Was Arce wearing a suit that day?
-- Tom
All of the TSBD order-fillers wore suits. It was an extremely formal warehouse. Oswald was a renegade, the Punk Who Wouldn't Wear a Suit (as Shelley famously called him). Arce had an orange pimp suit that was the envy of his order-filling peers, or at least that's what Weisberg reported in 1992.
More to the point, is there some reason you change avatars like they were popcorn? Why not just use an actual photo of yourself and stick with it, as I do? (Yes, that's me.) Some of these avatars are hysterical - shriveled up little old men who somehow identify with superheroes and whatnot.
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Is there some reason you change avatars like they were popcorn? Why not just use an actual photo of yourself and stick with it, as I do?
Dear Lance,
A fancy-pants logo would suffice for you.
-- Tom
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I apologize for interrupting James' excellent work with my silliness, but opportunities to needle Tom simply cannot be resisted. His obsession with Gloria Calvery dates back something like 20 years, and it's mostly lost on me. All efforts to make Bill Shelley into the Second Most Interesting Man in the World are likewise lost on me. Since he consistently, from 11-22-63 to the WC, placed Oswald on the first floor at 11:50, I have a hard time picturing him as a conspirator - let alone a CIA operative or Oswald's FPCC leafletting buddy in New Orleans. I've never thought the two Sidewalk Guys were anyone other than Shelley and Lovelady, and Alan Ford's stuff has always just made my head hurt. Perhaps someone can explain the significance of all this to me?
Ah, I see that WC Sham Guy Dan has started Yet Another Calvery Thread that explains what a CTer thinks the significance is. Shelley was induced to dramatically change his story in order to accommodate the WC Sham but kept placing Oswald on the first floor at 11:50 when he could have just Shut the Hell Up about that? Well, perhaps ....
Oh, dear, my head is spinning. Over at Prayer Man, they are convinced (and make rather a good case with enhanced photos) that it is Shelley and Lovelady walking down the sidewalk and that they lied when they said they were on the steps. http://www.prayer-man.com/bill-shelley-and-billy-lovelady-in-the-couch-film/. Isn't this the opposite of what WC Sham Guy Dan says? Given the choice between Bart Kamp and WC Sham Guy Dan on almost anything, I must admit I'd go with Bart.
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20250917 Revision of my Shelley-Lovelady-Arce post from 2018 (Prayer Woman thread). The calculated heights were not revised.
Alan Ford
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #955 on: July 01, 2018, 01:29:48 PM »
I'm pretty sure the man in black in Couch is not Bill Shelley but Danny Arce!
Alan,
That looks like a great call, as the determined heights of Bill Shelley and Danny Arce will show.
Using my Dealey Plaza 3D model I measured the apparent heights for Arce, Williams, and Shelley as they are escorted to a police car. In the animation I included Billy Lovelady popping-in next to Shelley for the group photo. Results for their heights are as follows:
Arce 5'11
Williams 6' 2.5
Detective 5' 9
Lovelady 5' 8.5 (from other sources)
Shelley 5'6
(https://i.imgur.com/MURmcQB.gif)
The next animation compares a 58.5 Lovelady with a 56 Shelley and 511 Danny Arce with a Couch frame. To make these renderings I used my on-site measurement for the curb height of 9. I also added a Lovelady stand-in, who's calculated height does fit nicely with the alleged Lovelady in Couch. The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.
(https://i.imgur.com/AdbEb8C.gif)
Excellent work, as usual, James.
Hopefully it puts this issue to rest once and for all.
It is clear, watching the part of the Darnell clip this identification is taken from, that the two men are not walking together. The 'Lovelady' figure starts off well behind the 'Shelley' figure but in the very brief clip he rapidly passes him by and is far out in front of him by the end of it. If the clip had run just a couple of seconds more 'Lovelady' would have been out of sight.
The Elm Street identification is based on the claims made by Shelley and Lovelady during their WC testimonies, that after the shooting they walked along the Elm Street extension towards the railroad yards. Isn't it strange that those who buy this claim forget that Shelley and Lovelady also claimed they were on the steps for at least 3 minutes before Gloria showed up, that they then went across to what both men refer to as the "little, old island" where they stayed for a further minute or two before heading along the extension. This, of course, is flatly contradicted by the fact the Darnell footage in question was taken 25 - 30 seconds after the headshot.
Why accept one part of their testimonies but ignore the rest?
A close analysis of this Chris Davidson GIF - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vobiYYwTLsuR63NZ0vX9ytxXNjlW4g8D/view?pli=1 - reveals that Karan Hicks (the woman in white) has reached the bottom step and is just beginning to climb them. This tells us that as the Darnell footage is capturing the moment that Hicks and Calvery arrive at the steps. They have only just arrived at the steps and Gloria has just begun to tell everyone there that the President has been shot. This moment is recalled by both Lovelady and Buell Frazier in their WC testimonies.
It is simply impossible for the Elm Street identification to be correct.
Just as your own excellent analysis has confirmed.
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20250917 Revision of my Shelley-Lovelady-Arce post from 2018 (Prayer Woman thread). The calculated heights were not revised.
Alan Ford
Re: Prayer Woman
« Reply #955 on: July 01, 2018, 01:29:48 PM »
I'm pretty sure the man in black in Couch is not Bill Shelley but Danny Arce!
Alan,
That looks like a great call, as the determined heights of Bill Shelley and Danny Arce will show.
Using my Dealey Plaza 3D model I measured the apparent heights for Arce, Williams, and Shelley as they are escorted to a police car. In the animation I included Billy Lovelady popping-in next to Shelley for the group photo. Results for their heights are as follows:
Arce 5'11
Williams 6' 2.5
Detective 5' 9
Lovelady 5' 8.5 (from other sources)
Shelley 5'6
(https://i.imgur.com/MURmcQB.gif)
The next animation compares a 58.5 Lovelady with a 56 Shelley and 511 Danny Arce with a Couch frame. To make these renderings I used my on-site measurement for the curb height of 9. I also added a Lovelady stand-in, who's calculated height does fit nicely with the alleged Lovelady in Couch. The height analysis shows that the two men in Couch could include Billy Lovelady, but not Bill Shelley. Danny Arce is a good fit as the taller man.
(https://i.imgur.com/AdbEb8C.gif)
Where do you get that Shelley was 5'6?
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James,
Was Arce wearing a suit that day, as the "Shelley" figure appears to be doing in the enlarged high-rez frame and the cropped-and-enhanced frames from Couch-Darnell that you can see by scrolling down a bit in this article at a certain website?
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/billy-nolan-lovelady/
-- Tom
No, but if youi hum a few bars.....
Actually, I've always looked at Arce wearing a long dress coat. I doubt he would be wearing a suit jacket but I don't know. The Couch images from your link shows the "Shelley" figure that could be wearing such a coat or possibly a suit jacket. No way to be sure, in my opinion.
Tom, I'm not sucking up but want to take this oppertunity to thank you for the work you, Larson and one ther fellow IIRC for solving the "Dog's Breakfast Identifications" of Calvery, Stemmons sign women and more along the north side of Elm. You don't get enough credit for that work. However, for this Shelley walking down the Elm St. extension I can't buy into. I believe the heights measured are the "Elephant In The Room" for the Darnell and Shelley walking west on the extension theory. One more rant. When Gerda first published the Couch (or Darnell) animation she captioned it as "Shelley and Darnell?", or maybe (Darnell and Shelley?)-I did not save that image. That was the only time I recall Gerda wavering on an identification. We never see that image posted, to my knowledge.
If you can come up with a explaination for the "5'6" Shelley appearing ~2-3" taller than 5'8.5" Lovelady height difference I'm posting let me know.
James
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Where do you get that Shelley was 5'6?
From the first graphic in my post. That 3D scene was matched to overlay the authentic image of the guys. I match the 3D scene by tedius placement of the camera, backgound, field of view and line of sight. It can take a day of trial and error to get a good fit. Then I can place meauring sticks where I need a measurement from the model. It's a simplistic photogrammetry determination.
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So Bart Kamp at Prayer Man has faked the enhanced images CLEARLY showing Lovelady in the sidewalk photos? Really?
http://www.prayer-man.com/bill-shelley-and-billy-lovelady-in-the-couch-film/
I see that the late Robert Prudhomme was once on a crusade to establish Shelley's height. I don't know whether anyone ever did, but the consensus seemed to be that he was about 5'9".
Nothing is simple in the JFKA. Prudhomme contacted a journalist who had known Shelley and got this back:
"Your question about Bill Shelley's height is difficult to answer. At the time I met Shelley in the early 1970's, he was perhaps 5-5 or 5-6. However, he told an employee (TSBD employee?) he was once two inches taller. According to the employee, Shelley claimed he broke his back in a car accident sometime after the assassination. Subsequent surgery supposedly left him two inches shorter. Shelley never mentioned the car accident in my presence, but the employee was a reliable source and Shelley's claim would have been plausible. Moreover, I recall Shelley was slightly misshaped as if he had indeed lost a couple of inches of height above the hips."
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From the first graphic in my post. That 3D scene was matched to overlay the authentic image of the guys. I match the 3D scene by tedius placement of the camera, backgound, field of view and line of sight. It can take a day of trial and error to get a good fit. Then I can place meauring sticks where I need a measurement from the model. It's a simplistic photogrammetry determination.
So, you're experienced in applying photogrammetry? My own photographic analysis expertise is next to nothing. I had to ask because I recall reading that someone who knew Shelley said that he was taller than Lovelady. I think it was Buell Frazier. Are you sure about the heights of the others?
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So Bart Kamp at Prayer Man has faked the enhanced images CLEARLY showing Lovelady in the sidewalk photos? Really?
http://www.prayer-man.com/bill-shelley-and-billy-lovelady-in-the-couch-film/
I see that the late Robert Prudhomme was once on a crusade to establish Shelley's height. I don't know whether anyone ever did, but the consensus seemed to be that he was about 5'9".
The late Robert Prudhomme? ??? Must have been very recently. I think that he blocked me on Facebook just in the last month.
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So, you're experienced in applying photogrammetry? My own photographic analysis expertise is next to nothing. I had to ask because I recall reading that someone who knew Shelley said that he was taller than Lovelady. I think it was Buell Frazier. Are you sure about the heights of the others?
Tim, my experience with photogrammetry is limited to doing the work I've done with my 3D model. I have no training with the technique. But I do try to match the photographic parameters to the degree my renderings "snap" onto the reference image without any use of photo editors (resizing, stretching, rotations etc). There are some pitfalls though. I "assume" the reference image has not been cropped such that the true point of view is not shifted due to assymetric cropping. Image aspect ratios can be a real headache too.
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Your Intrepid Reporter sees that the idea that Lovelady was 5'8" comes from an FBI report where his height is stated based on "interrogation and observations."
However, Lovelady told a NY reporter in 1964 that he was some 3" shorter than Oswald, which would make him 5'6".
"Mr. Lovelady said the F.B.I. had taken pictures of him from various angles and that he had been shown a three-by-four-foot blowup of the doorway picture and asked if he was in it. I immediately pointed to myself in the doorway, Mr. Lovelady said. He said he was about 15 to 20 pounds heavier than Oswald and about three inches shorter. Asked whether there was any resemblance to Oswald, he replied, Im fatter in the face.' 'It was me in the doorway, he said. If anyone doesnt believe it, they will just have to take my word. (5-24-64 article by Dom Bonafede in The New York Herald-Tribune)."
Whatever. What can anyone do but laugh at this stuff? It's all a Rorschach test. You're all pretending at some sort of certainty on the basis of what is almost entirely guesswork.
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Your Intrepid Reporter sees that the idea that Lovelady was 5'8" comes from an FBI report where his height is stated based on "interrogation and observations."
However, Lovelady told a NY reporter in 1964 that he was some 3" shorter than Oswald, which would make him 5'6".
"Mr. Lovelady said the F.B.I. had taken pictures of him from various angles and that he had been shown a three-by-four-foot blowup of the doorway picture and asked if he was in it. I immediately pointed to myself in the doorway, Mr. Lovelady said. He said he was about 15 to 20 pounds heavier than Oswald and about three inches shorter. Asked whether there was any resemblance to Oswald, he replied, Im fatter in the face.' 'It was me in the doorway, he said. If anyone doesnt believe it, they will just have to take my word. (5-24-64 article by Dom Bonafede in The New York Herald-Tribune)."
Whatever. What can anyone do but laugh at this stuff? It's all a Rorschach test. You're all pretending at some sort of certainty on the basis of what is almost entirely guesswork.
"You're all pretending at some sort of certainty on the basis of what is almost entirely guesswork."
And from his post previous to that:
"So Bart Kamp at Prayer Man has faked the enhanced images CLEARLY showing Lovelady in the sidewalk photos?"
Hmmmm....
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The late Robert Prudhomme? ??? Must have been very recently. I think that he blocked me on Facebook just in the last month.
Maybe I hallucinated it? It wasn't in the past month, that's for sure. I thought I recalled the Ed Forum people lamenting his demise and I thought I had even looked at his obituary. If he's on Facebook, the reports of his death must have been greatly exaggerated. :D
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"You're all pretending at some sort of certainty on the basis of what is almost entirely guesswork."
And from his post previous to that:
"So Bart Kamp at Prayer Man has faked the enhanced images CLEARLY showing Lovelady in the sidewalk photos?"
Hmmmm....
I will confess, WC Sham Dan, that your point is too subtle for me. Yes, I don't think there is enough certainty about the height of Lovelady or Shelley to be doing 3D modeling and making claims on the basis of it.
On the other hand, the enhanced photos at Prayer Man clearly show that the guy on the sidewalk is Billy Lovelady unless some other guy with the same balding hair was wearing the same ghastly shirt. No, I don't think Bart faked anything. I have far higher respect for Bart than, well, Certain People I Could Mention.