JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Benjamin Cole on September 14, 2025, 12:29:34 PM
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Well, no one ever asked, but then I live in rural Thailand.
At bottom, it comes down to this:
(Gov.) Connally: "I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"
My layman's read on the Z-film is JFK is struck ~Z-209, when he "goes behind" the Stemmons Freeway sign, from the perspective of the film.
Connally's testimony is that he heard the first shot, looked over his own right shoulder (and is seen in Z-film facing backwards), could not see JFK, then turned forward to begin to look over his left shoulder, but was interrupted by the second shot, one that he did not hear (accurately, as the bullet traveled more quickly than sound).
We see Connally pushed forward ~Z-295, about 4.5 seconds after JFK appears to have been shot.
The third shot struck JFK at Z-313.
Thus, JFK is shot perhaps one second after Connally was shot. That is too rapid a sequence to have been accomplished by a lone-gunman armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle.
Witness testimony (as anyone who worked the courts knows) is very iffy. But there is a tendency to believe someone who says what happened to them after they were shot in the back.
Could Connally have been shot at the same time as JFK, and then 4.5 seconds later is pushed forward for some reason, but only believes he had been impacted by a bullet at that later time? Seems like a stretch. What else would push him forward? That is not an illusion; it is seem in the Z-film.
Some have argued that bullets do not push victims in a direction, and indeed many hunters will tell you that often deer just slump to he ground after being shot.
True, bullets that do not meet resistance are sometimes seen to pass through the body, without moving the body much.
However, Dr. Robert Shaw, who worked on Connally at Parkland, testified before the WC:
Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor’s chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Shaw.pdf
The bullet that struck the Governor traveled along and shattered the rib, meeting resistance, and pushing Connally forward. The bullet also punctured Connally's lung.
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There are as many narratives of the JFKA as there are narrators, including endless theories about the true perps.
I do not know who were the true perps, though I suspect a very small conspiracy, possibly just two people and Lee Harvey Oswald.
As LHO's confederates were never apprehended, captivating theories have been fabricated, including the CIA, Mafia, KGB, LBJ, G-2, anti-Castro exiles, and others as the true perps, leading up to the very highest levels of government and enterprise.
Almost inevitably, the ideology drives the agenda, and the agenda drives the JFKA narrative. Tehran stooges and anti-Semitic crackpots are recently promoting the "Mossad did it" narratives on the JFKA.
However...WC supporters should keep in mind the HSCA did come down on the side of that there was a conspiracy in the JFKA. And WC bashers should remember the HSCA concluded LHO fired the lethal shots on 11/22.
Someday I will post my "Vatican Perped the JFJA" narrative. It will show how easy it is to put together a narrative based on "facts" and motives, and circumstantial evidence.
I do not believe the Vatican had anything to do with the JFKA.
Who was behind the JFKA? I am not sure.
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[...]
Your analysis is seriously flawed.
If I had to guess, I'd say you have a deep psychological need to believe the JFKA was a conspiracy by the evil, evil "Deep State" (whatever that is).
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Well, no one ever asked, but then I live in rural Thailand.
At bottom, it comes down to this:
(Gov.) Connally: "I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"
My layman's read on the Z-film is JFK is struck ~Z-209, when he "goes behind" the Stemmons Freeway sign, from the perspective of the film.
Connally's testimony is that he heard the first shot, looked over his own right shoulder (and is seen in Z-film facing backwards), could not see JFK, then turned forward to begin to look over his left shoulder, but was interrupted by the second shot, one that he did not hear (accurately, as the bullet traveled more quickly than sound).
We see Connally pushed forward ~Z-295, about 4.5 seconds after JFK appears to have been shot.
The third shot struck JFK at Z-313.
Thus, JFK is shot perhaps one second after Connally was shot. That is too rapid a sequence to have been accomplished by a lone-gunman armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle.
Witness testimony (as anyone who worked the courts knows) is very iffy. But there is a tendency to believe someone who says what happened to them after they were shot in the back.
Could Connally have been shot at the same time as JFK, and then 4.5 seconds later is pushed forward for some reason, but only believes he had been impacted by a bullet at that later time? Seems like a stretch. What else would push him forward? That is not an illusion; it is seem in the Z-film.
Some have argued that bullets do not push victims in a direction, and indeed many hunters will tell you that often deer just slump to he ground after being shot.
True, bullets that do not meet resistance are sometimes seen to pass through the body, without moving the body much.
However, Dr. Robert Shaw, who worked on Connally at Parkland, testified before the WC:
Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor’s chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Shaw.pdf
The bullet that struck the Governor traveled along and shattered the rib, meeting resistance, and pushing Connally forward. The bullet also punctured Connally's lung.
Connally eventually admitted that, despite what his wife told him (LOL), he and JFK may have been hit by the second shot that was fired.
There are as many narratives of the JFKA as there are narrators, including endless theories about the true perps. [emphasis added]
I do not know who were the true perps, though I suspect a very small conspiracy, possibly just two people and Lee Harvey Oswald. [emphasis added]
As LHO's confederates were never apprehended, captivating theories have been fabricated, including the CIA, Mafia, KGB, LBJ, G-2, anti-Castro exiles, and others as the true perps, leading up to the very highest levels of government and enterprise. [emphasis added]
You make it sound as though it's a given that the JFKA was a conspiracy.
PS
I can't find the bit in Dr. Shaw's testimony in the link you provided where he allegedly said that the bullet could have pushed Connally dramatically forward, but I did find this jewel:
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that you know as to Governor Connally’s wounds that he could have been struck by the same bullet which passed through the President Kennedy, assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of 2,000 feet per second, a 6.5 millimeter bullet, passed through President Kennedy at a distance of 160 to 250 feet from President, striking only soft tissue and exiting Kennedy’s body, entering on his back and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through Governor Connally’s chest in your opinion?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by the President, which I, myself, did not observe, and considering two men in the limousine, I think it would be perfectly possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of President Kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on Governor Connally. Mr.
Mr. SPECTER. Could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you found on Governor Connally?
Dr. SHAW. Yes, I would still be postulating that Governor Connally was struck by one missile.
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Ben, have you read John Orr's "Analysis of Gunshots in Dealey Plaza"?
http://www.mountainrivercabins.com/JohnOrrReport.pdf
I was severely chastised for not hating it, but he has four shots, with the headshot coming from a Mafia pro on the roof of the Dal-Tex Building (where a casing was much later found). He has a fragment from the head shot causing Connally's wrist injuries, which would explain why CE 399 is not more damaged and would seemingly explain two separate reactions by Connally. I can't remember it all, but I recall those who thought it was silly focused on him having the shot that caused the throat wound traveling upwards and striking the windshield frame. (I said on a thread yesterday that he basically accepts the SBT with the exception of JBC's wrist wounds, but that was incorrect.)
What I liked was the very limited nature of his proposed conspiracy and only one additional shot coming from the rear on a trajectory that could plausibly be attributed to Mr. Patsy. I have also always thought that the Mafia was the most plausible candidate - motive, means, pretty much business as usual - and I recall Pat Speer agreeing with me (as well, I now realize, as Orr and Larry Schnapf). Even a pro-Castro patsy would have fit perfectly into the Mafia's plans. Eliminating JFK and neutralizing RFK would have been the principal objective, while an invasion of Cuba and the restoration of the Mafia's lucrative Cuban empire would have been icing on the cake.
My problem, as always, is Mr. Patsy. His actions leading up to the assassination, his actions in going to Ruth's on Thursday, and his post-JFKA actions just don't suggest to me someone who was, or thought he was, involved in a conspiracy. I could see how he might have been talked into what he thought was a pro-Castro conspiracy that would facilitate his entry into Cuba, but I just don't see any evidence that occurred. (There could have also been a conspiracy where Oswald was the only shooter, which I call LN+, but that's no fun at all.)
Jesus, WHAT AM I SAYING??? The LN narrative is rock-solid and there is no doubt!!! Arlen Specter rules! I am well-known for saying crazy things before I've had my second cup of coffee and cannot be held responsible for any of the above.
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Ben, have you read John Orr's "Analysis of Gunshots in Dealey Plaza"?
http://www.mountainrivercabins.com/JohnOrrReport.pdf
I was severely chastised for not hating it, but he has four shots, with the headshot coming from a Mafia pro on the roof of the Dal-Tex Building (where a casing was much later found). He has a fragment from the head shot causing Connally's wrist injuries, which would explain why CE 399 is not more damaged and would seemingly explain two separate reactions by Connally. I can't remember it all, but I recall those who thought it was silly focused on him having the shot that caused the throat wound traveling upwards and striking the windshield frame. (I said on a thread yesterday that he basically accepts the SBT with the exception of JBC's wrist wounds, but that was incorrect.)
What I liked was the very limited nature of his proposed conspiracy and only one additional shot coming from the rear on a trajectory that could plausibly be attributed to Mr. Patsy.
Dear Lance,
What seemingly unsurmountable technical issues with the Lonenutter's "Shooting Myth" does Orr's theory make moot for you?
The fact that CE-399 is "virtually pristine"?
The fact that JBC reacted so much later than JFK to being shot?
The fact that the angles of entrance and exit in JFK and JBC seem so doggone unworkable?
The fact that CE-399 didn't fragment but the Z-313 bullet did?
What?
-- Tom
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Dear Lance,
What seemingly unsurmountable technical issues with the Lonenutter's "Shooting Myth" does Orr's theory make moot for you?
The fact that CE-399 is "virtually pristine"?
The fact that JBC reacted so much later than JFK to being shot?
The fact that the angles of entrance and exit in JFK and JBC seem so doggone unworkable?
The fact that CE-399 didn't fragment but the Z-313 bullet did?
What?
-- Tom
That really isn't my approach. My point was simply that if I were forced to adopt a conspiracy theory, Orr's would be what makes the most sense to me (and had occurred to me independently): 1. The Mafia. 2. A pro, so there is no doubt the job gets done with one shot. 3. Said pro at the rear on a trajectory plausibly attributable to Oswald. 4. A pro-Castro patsy because, if all goes well, we not only eliminate JFK and neutralize RFK but may restore our Cuban empire. Add in the shell casing found much later on the Dal-Tex Building roof under circumstances which scarcely suggest a plant, together with Marcello's supposed confession and whatever else there may be, and I'm certainly not prepared to say, "That's ridiculous."
With my LN beanie on now that I've had my second cup of coffee, I still do kind of like Orr's theory of a fragment from the head wound causing JBC's wrist wounds. If that can't be ruled out completely, it actually improves the SBT to me. As I recall, there once was speculation that a head shot fragment had caused the throat wound, with CE 399 being what had dropped out of a shallow back wound (but CE 399 is too damaged for that).
My other big stumbling block to a conspiracy theory is the timing. Unless one is off in the Grand Conspiracy Ozone where Oswald was "planted" at the TSBD and JFK's route was thereafter "arranged" to pass in front of the TSBD - which I reject completely - then the conspiracy would have to have been organized lightning-fast, after it was known the motorcade would turn at Houston and go down Elm. I see absolutely nothing in Oswald's activities, or any scenario that makes any sense, to suggest a conspiracy being organized in that extremely tight time frame. I really can't picture any conspiracy that has Oswald hitching a ride in Buell's clunker to retrieve his clunky Carcano the afternoon before the assassination, and then trusting Buell's clunker to get him back to the TSBD with no hitches or glitches; there are so many absurd risks associated with the whole enterprise that it would have to have been a Three Stooges conspiracy.
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If I were forced to adopt a conspiracy theory, Orr's would be what makes the most sense to me (and had occurred to me independently).
Dear Lance,
What in the world would compel or "force" you to "adopt" a JFKA CT?
Some sort of deep psychological need, like Royell Storing, Michael T. Griffith, and [fill in the blank] seem to have?
(LOL)
-- Tom
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Dear Lance,
What in the world would compel or "force" you to "adopt" a JFKA CT?
Some sort of deep psychological need, like Royell Storing, Michael T. Griffith, and [fill in the blank] seem to have?
(LOL)
-- Tom
If someone said to me, "Let's just assume for the sake of argument that there was a conspiracy. What would be your best guess as to what it would have looked like?" - then the Mafia scenario would be my best guess. Let it go - unless perhaps you have some deep psychological need to keep asking questions and having the last word on every thread.
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If someone said to me, "Let's just assume for the sake of argument that there was a conspiracy. What would be your best guess as to what it would have looked like?" - then the Mafia scenario would be my best guess. Let it go - unless perhaps you have some deep psychological need to keep asking questions and having the last word on every thread.
Dear Lance,
Do you find assuming things for the sake of argument is a real hoot?
-- Tom
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If someone said to me, "Let's just assume for the sake of argument that there was a conspiracy. What would be your best guess as to what it would have looked like?" - then the Mafia scenario would be my best guess. Let it go - unless perhaps you have some deep psychological need to keep asking questions and having the last word on every thread.
Ruby stalking/killing Oswald is all the proof I need that Marcello had him killed. My theory is Oswald fired three shots Z157, Z224, Z313, and the fourth shot hit JFK from the front throwing him back. Oswald killed Tippit, and Ruby killed Oswald. Secret service covered their ass for not reacting as they should have, Burkley was in charge of the autopsy thru RFK, JFK's back of head picture was taken during the reconstruction of his head to protect the family.
Thats all
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Well, it's been over 60 years, I would hope that at some point you conspiracists could get together and agree on what you believe? How, in some detail, this conspiracy occurred?
Oswald as CIA? KGB? D-2? Mafia hitman? The Birchers? Lansdale? Angleton? Castro? Clay Shaw? Shooters here and shooters there. Coverups here and there. How much more do we need to look into? It's all out there. How many more villains do we need to learn about?
At this point this is an example of "the wish is father to the thought." You simply want to believe in a conspiracy, Oswald couldn't have done this by himself, change history so dramatically. So you look over all of these claims, over all of this information, and pluck those out that support what you want to believe. It's an odd hobby (I plead guilty to some of this) but at this point, after half a century, you've got wishes but no substance.
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Ruby's stalking/killing Oswald is all the proof I need that Marcello had him killed.
Do you think Ruby's wiring "Little Lynn" $25 bucks at the Western Union Office five minutes before he shot Oswald was part of the plan?
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Do you think Ruby's wiring "Little Lynn" $25 bucks at the Western Union Office five minutes before he shot Oswald was part of the plan?
I guess you believe Ruby walked down the ramp as well?
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Here we have the x-rays, photo and a film frame of the wound on JFK's head. What more do we need? Even though there is much, much more.
But conspiracists simply don't want to believe it; it contradicts their conspiracy belief. So they want to believe ER doctors, the same people who admitted they weren't sure what they saw, their view of the wound was rushed and in an extreme and confused situation. Read Dr. McClelland's full comments not selected bits of them.
Meanwhile we're supposed to ignore all of this.
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8b1b3b842a784ebb4343927ee8439fe4?rik=AljtS2oSzU38RQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2f2.bp.blogspot.com%2f-qdY-VZ-aCD0%2fVhRAybGnZzI%2fAAAAAAABHic%2fsFUSEQBd54Q%2fs527%2fJFK-Head-Wound-Photographic-Comparison.png&ehk=dPfBXd%2bLTiiFRWOFRoMx3wj6qUud1fhRaJY5%2bZeb7M4%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1)
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I guess you believe Ruby walked down the ramp as well?
Sure, when the policeman who was supposed to be preventing people from doing that was out in the street, with his back to the ramp, directing traffic so that the "decoy" vehicle, an armored car, could back down it.
Don't you know that?
(Or do you, and you're convinced it was part of "the plan"?)
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Sure, when the policeman who was supposed to be preventing people from doing that was out in the street, with his back to the ramp, directing traffic so that the "decoy" vehicle, an armored car, could back down it.
Don't you know that?
(Or do you, and you're convinced it was part of "the plan"?)
Actually, there was another officer watching the ramp who knew Ruby named Don Flusche, and he didn't see Ruby either.
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Here we have the x-rays, photo and a film frame of the wound on JFK's head. What more do we need?
But conspiracists simply don't want to believe it; it contradicts their conspiracy belief. So they want to believe ER doctors who admit they weren't sure, their view of the wound was rushed and in an extreme and confused situation.
Meanwhile we're supposed to ignore all of this.
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.8b1b3b842a784ebb4343927ee8439fe4?rik=AljtS2oSzU38RQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2f2.bp.blogspot.com%2f-qdY-VZ-aCD0%2fVhRAybGnZzI%2fAAAAAAABHic%2fsFUSEQBd54Q%2fs527%2fJFK-Head-Wound-Photographic-Comparison.png&ehk=dPfBXd%2bLTiiFRWOFRoMx3wj6qUud1fhRaJY5%2bZeb7M4%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0&sres=1&sresct=1)
(https://www.artnet.com/WebServices/images/ll00307lldCjmJFgOjECfDrCWvaHBOcup1F/abraham-zapruder-a-series-of-36-film-stills-and-40-color-slides-from-the-zapruder-film-of-president-kennedys.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4J2yKb5K/moorman-back-of-head-hole.jpg)
Exact area Tom Robinson said was blown out and covered with a piece of rubber.
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Dear Lance,
Do you find assuming things for the sake of argument is a real hoot?
-- Tom
Lawyers do this all the time. When we know we have a winner, we often concede the opponent's facts. I don't know how many motions for summary judgment and other types of motions I've written that that begin "Assuming, arguendo ..." (which means "for the sake of argument"). Assuming the opponent's facts arguendo means they are assumed only for purposes of the particular motion and do not lock the movant (me) into them at trial.
Because the LN narrative is not my religion, and unlike you I don't think the KGB is controlling my thoughts with mysterious satellite beams, I find it both interesting and useful to try to think through the various conspiracy theories assuming, arguendo, they are true. When I do, a tight Mafia conspiracy is about the only one that is halfway plausible. One then has to make the connection between Oswald and the Mafia in a plausible way, which Orr fails to. His theory is that Oswald was recruited, if that's the word, by Marcello through Dutz Murret and that Oswald knowingly but reluctantly went along because Marcello made him the proverbial offer he couldn't refuse.
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Unlike you, I don't think the KGB is controlling my thoughts with mysterious satellite beams.
Ignorance about the disinformation, "active measures," and mole-based strategic deception counterintelligence operations the KGB* has waged against us and our NATO allies since 1959 seems to be your specialty, Fancy-Pants Lance.
And I give you The Traitorous Orange Bird (rhymes with "Xxxx").
*Today's SVR and FSB
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Well, no one ever asked, but then I live in rural Thailand.
At bottom, it comes down to this:
(Gov.) Connally: "I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"
My layman's read on the Z-film is JFK is struck ~Z-209, when he "goes behind" the Stemmons Freeway sign, from the perspective of the film.
Connally's testimony is that he heard the first shot, looked over his own right shoulder (and is seen in Z-film facing backwards), could not see JFK, then turned forward to begin to look over his left shoulder, but was interrupted by the second shot, one that he did not hear (accurately, as the bullet traveled more quickly than sound).
We see Connally pushed forward ~Z-295, about 4.5 seconds after JFK appears to have been shot.
The third shot struck JFK at Z-313.
Thus, JFK is shot perhaps one second after Connally was shot. That is too rapid a sequence to have been accomplished by a lone-gunman armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle.
Witness testimony (as anyone who worked the courts knows) is very iffy. But there is a tendency to believe someone who says what happened to them after they were shot in the back.
Could Connally have been shot at the same time as JFK, and then 4.5 seconds later is pushed forward for some reason, but only believes he had been impacted by a bullet at that later time? Seems like a stretch. What else would push him forward? That is not an illusion; it is seem in the Z-film.
Some have argued that bullets do not push victims in a direction, and indeed many hunters will tell you that often deer just slump to he ground after being shot.
True, bullets that do not meet resistance are sometimes seen to pass through the body, without moving the body much.
However, Dr. Robert Shaw, who worked on Connally at Parkland, testified before the WC:
Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor’s chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Shaw.pdf
The bullet that struck the Governor traveled along and shattered the rib, meeting resistance, and pushing Connally forward. The bullet also punctured Connally's lung.
----
There are as many narratives of the JFKA as there are narrators, including endless theories about the true perps.
I do not know who were the true perps, though I suspect a very small conspiracy, possibly just two people and Lee Harvey Oswald.
As LHO's confederates were never apprehended, captivating theories have been fabricated, including the CIA, Mafia, KGB, LBJ, G-2, anti-Castro exiles, and others as the true perps, leading up to the very highest levels of government and enterprise.
Almost inevitably, the ideology drives the agenda, and the agenda drives the JFKA narrative. Tehran stooges and anti-Semitic crackpots are recently promoting the "Mossad did it" narratives on the JFKA.
However...WC supporters should keep in mind the HSCA did come down on the side of that there was a conspiracy in the JFKA. And WC bashers should remember the HSCA concluded LHO fired the lethal shots on 11/22.
Someday I will post my "Vatican Perped the JFJA" narrative. It will show how easy it is to put together a narrative based on "facts" and motives, and circumstantial evidence.
I do not believe the Vatican had anything to do with the JFKA.
Who was behind the JFKA? I am not sure.
You say that JFK is struck ~Z-209. Examine the GIF below and describe what you see in it. That is, describe the movements of both JFK and Connally.
(https://i.imgur.com/UZP7ht1.gif)
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Thanks for your collegial comments.
I have not read Orr's analysis, but I will give it a whirl.
Certainly LHO acted like a guilty or framed party in the immediate post-JFKA moments and minutes.
My suspicion is that he was involved in the JFKA, although who can say how, with any degree of certainty?
The HSCA, full of smart and skeptical people, concluded there had been a JFKA conspiracy, but that LHO fired the lethal shots. Maybe so.
I wonder if LHO did a repeat of his Walker evening (IMHO), and fired, but intentionally to miss. That would explain the three missed shots on 11/22 seen by many witnesses (one striking the asphalt behind the limo, one striking the Elm St. adjacent manhole cover, and another near Tague).
I lean towards a second gunsel behind the limo, perhaps, as you say, on the Dal-Tex roof, or elsewhere on TSBD6.
Then the GK smoke-and-bang show, which was possibly a diversion.
As stated, in my view, the JFKA conspiracy was very small, possibly even just Herminio Diaz and Eladio Del Valle. Del Valle was a pol back in Cuba, thus likely somewhat polished, able to speak to LHO, win his confidence.
As for "professional hit man"--well maybe. What the horrible Trump assassination attempt (missed by an inch), and the equally horrible Kirk assassination show is that relative amateurs with rifles are very dangerous. JFK was moving, but nearly in a straight line away from the TSBD/Dal-Rex buildings.
Anyone reasonably familiar with a rifle could have perped the deed. But not a lone gunman with a single-shot bolt-action rifle.
IMHO, caveat emptor, and draw your conclusions.
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Tim-
Thanks for your collegial question.
My best guess is JFK has just been struck, and Jackie is beginning to react, ~Z-209.
Connally is also beginning to react---to the sound of a gunshot, and a sense it may have struck nearby.
After this, JBC does a 180-degree turn in his seat to try to see JFK---not really possible after being shot through the chest, no?
JBC describes himself as being immediately incapacitated by the bullet that struck him. That's believable.
JBC describes himself as being pushed forward by the shot that struck him---that happens ~Z-295.
That's my read of the Z-film.
IMHO, caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusons.
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My best guess is JFK has just been struck, and Jackie is beginning to react, ~Z-209.
Connally is also beginning to react---to the sound of a gunshot, and a sense it may have struck nearby.
After this, JBC does a 180-degree turn in his seat to try to see JFK---not really possible after being shot through the chest, no?
JBC describes himself as being immediately incapacitated by the bullet that struck him. That's believable.
JBC describes himself as being pushed forward by the shot that struck him---that happens ~Z-295.
That's my read of the Z-film.
Some people have been known to do "strange" things after they've been shot in the back.
John Connally was a large man.
No vital organs were hit.
He said it felt as though he'd been hit with a fist.
BFD.
(Pardon my German)
Having already exhibited a startle reaction to Oswald's first, missing-everything shot which had occurred two seconds earlier, Connally started turning to his right around Z-163 to catch a glimpse of JFK over his right shoulder, but by Z-168 JFK had turned his head to his far right and had raised his right forearm to wave to the folks who were waving at and/or calling out, "Hi, Mr. President!," to him, and JBC couldn't "see" his face. So, he started turning to his left to try to catch a glimpse of JFK over his left shoulder, but was nailed by CE-399 we he was only halfway there.
In other words, you're off on Connally's "turn to his right to see if JFK was okay" by about three seconds.
Regardless, why can't you accept the fact that a psychologically disturbed, self-described former Marine sharpshooter and U-2 radar operator killed JFK to Advance The Dialectic and / or because he wasn't getting any from (probable KGB* agent) Marina by firing three shots at him over 10.2 seconds in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza?
Is it because you have a deep psychological need to believe that some evil, evil Southern Oilmen or the evil, evil Military Industrial Intelligence-Community Complex or an evil, evil "Deep State" did it?
You do realize, don't you, that that's what the KGB* has been trying (with great success!) to get us to believe for sixty-two years, now, through the likes of "useful idiots" (or worse) Joachim Joesten, Thomas G. Buchanan, Richard Popkin, Mark Lane, Tink Thompson, Jim Garrison, Oliver Stone, Roger Stone, Jefferson "Yuri Nosenko Was a True Defector!!!" Morley, Bill Simpich, Jimmy "I Never Met a Communist I Didn't Cherish" DiEugenio, and Tucker "The You Know-What" Carlson, et al. ad nauseam?
*Today's SVR and FSB
PS Thanks in advance for your collegial comments.
LOL!
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Thanks for your collegial comments.
I have not read Orr's analysis, but I will give it a whirl.
Certainly LHO acted like a guilty or framed party in the immediate post-JFKA moments and minutes.
My suspicion is that he was involved in the JFKA, although who can say how, with any degree of certainty?
The HSCA, full of smart and skeptical people, concluded there had been a JFKA conspiracy, but that LHO fired the lethal shots. Maybe so.
I wonder if LHO did a repeat of his Walker evening (IMHO), and fired, but intentionally to miss. That would explain the three missed shots on 11/22 seen by many witnesses (one striking the asphalt behind the limo, one striking the Elm St. adjacent manhole cover, and another near Tague).
I lean towards a second gunsel behind the limo, perhaps, as you say, on the Dal-Tex roof, or elsewhere on TSBD6.
Then the GK smoke-and-bang show, which was possibly a diversion.
As stated, in my view, the JFKA conspiracy was very small, possibly even just Herminio Diaz and Eladio Del Valle. Del Valle was a pol back in Cuba, thus likely somewhat polished, able to speak to LHO, win his confidence.
As for "professional hit man"--well maybe. What the horrible Trump assassination attempt (missed by an inch), and the equally horrible Kirk assassination show is that relative amateurs with rifles are very dangerous. JFK was moving, but nearly in a straight line away from the TSBD/Dal-Rex buildings.
Anyone reasonably familiar with a rifle could have perped the deed. But not a lone gunman with a single-shot bolt-action rifle.
IMHO, caveat emptor, and draw your conclusions.
But not a lone gunman with a single-shot bolt-action rifle.
The Carcano rifle found on the sixth floor of the TSBD is not a single-shot rifle. It is automatically fed from a spring loaded magazine which defines it as a repeater. A true single-shot rifle would require the operator to hand feed the next shot into the action after each shot. And it has been demonstrated many times and ways that LHO had the capability to make the shots fired in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63.
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The Mannlicher Carcano bolt action had to be worked between shots. This meant that a good rifleman could get off shots in about 2.3 seconds, minimum. I call that a "single-shot bolt-action rifle."
My read on the Z-film is that Gov. Connally is struck ~Z-295 and JFK at Z-313, with the film running at 18 frames per second.
This is the one part of about the JFK debate that I feel somewhat confident about.
But hey---others have other views. So it goes.
IMHO, caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
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The Mannlicher Carcano bolt action had to be worked between shots. This meant that a good rifleman could get off shots in about 2.3 seconds, minimum. I call that a "single-shot bolt-action rifle."
My read on the Z-film is that Gov. Connally is struck ~Z-295 and JFK at Z-313, with the film running at 18 frames per second.
This is the one part of about the JFK debate that I feel somewhat confident about.
Since JFK, Jackie, JBC, Nellie, Kellerman, George Hickey and Rosemary Willis can be seen around Z-145 to be consciously reacting virtually simultaneously to the first, missing-everything, shot (or . . . gasp . . . to a loud firecracker, blowout, backfire or [fill in the blank]) said first, missing-everything shot (or loud firecracker, blowout, backfire or [fill in the blank]) must have occurred around "Z-124," i.e., half-a-second before Zapruder resumed filming.
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Well, no one ever asked, but then I live in rural Thailand.
At bottom, it comes down to this:
(Gov.) Connally: "I was knocked over, just doubled over by the force of the bullet. It went in my back and came out my chest about 2 inches below and the left of my right nipple. The force of the bullet drove my body over almost double and when I looked, immediately I could see I was just drenched with blood. (1 HSCA 42)"
My layman's read on the Z-film is JFK is struck ~Z-209, when he "goes behind" the Stemmons Freeway sign, from the perspective of the film.
Connally's testimony is that he heard the first shot, looked over his own right shoulder (and is seen in Z-film facing backwards), could not see JFK, then turned forward to begin to look over his left shoulder, but was interrupted by the second shot, one that he did not hear (accurately, as the bullet traveled more quickly than sound).
We see Connally pushed forward ~Z-295, about 4.5 seconds after JFK appears to have been shot.
The third shot struck JFK at Z-313.
Thus, JFK is shot perhaps one second after Connally was shot. That is too rapid a sequence to have been accomplished by a lone-gunman armed with a single-shot bolt-action rifle.
Witness testimony (as anyone who worked the courts knows) is very iffy. But there is a tendency to believe someone who says what happened to them after they were shot in the back.
Could Connally have been shot at the same time as JFK, and then 4.5 seconds later is pushed forward for some reason, but only believes he had been impacted by a bullet at that later time? Seems like a stretch. What else would push him forward? That is not an illusion; it is seem in the Z-film.
Some have argued that bullets do not push victims in a direction, and indeed many hunters will tell you that often deer just slump to he ground after being shot.
True, bullets that do not meet resistance are sometimes seen to pass through the body, without moving the body much.
However, Dr. Robert Shaw, who worked on Connally at Parkland, testified before the WC:
Dr. SHAW. The bullet, in passing through the Governor’s chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately 10 cm. of the rib.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh6/pdf/WH6_Shaw.pdf
The bullet that struck the Governor traveled along and shattered the rib, meeting resistance, and pushing Connally forward. The bullet also punctured Connally's lung.
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There are as many narratives of the JFKA as there are narrators, including endless theories about the true perps.
I do not know who were the true perps, though I suspect a very small conspiracy, possibly just two people and Lee Harvey Oswald.
As LHO's confederates were never apprehended, captivating theories have been fabricated, including the CIA, Mafia, KGB, LBJ, G-2, anti-Castro exiles, and others as the true perps, leading up to the very highest levels of government and enterprise.
Almost inevitably, the ideology drives the agenda, and the agenda drives the JFKA narrative. Tehran stooges and anti-Semitic crackpots are recently promoting the "Mossad did it" narratives on the JFKA.
However...WC supporters should keep in mind the HSCA did come down on the side of that there was a conspiracy in the JFKA. And WC bashers should remember the HSCA concluded LHO fired the lethal shots on 11/22.
Someday I will post my "Vatican Perped the JFJA" narrative. It will show how easy it is to put together a narrative based on "facts" and motives, and circumstantial evidence.
I do not believe the Vatican had anything to do with the JFKA.
Who was behind the JFKA? I am not sure.
Great post, Ben. Just a few facts that help your case:
-- After viewing high-quality prints of the Zapruder frames under high magnification for Life magazine, Connally chose Z234 as the moment of impact, and we see his right shoulder slammed forward in Z238-242, which matches perfectly with his description of the force of the bullet's impact. He also insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z231. When Life asked him about Z228, he said, "there is no question about it. I haven't been hit yet."
But SBT believers must dismiss Connally as "mistaken." Right, the guy who actually experienced the shooting just couldn't tell that he was really hit at Z224!
-- Your point about a shot at around Z295 is valid. I think Connally's forward movement at this time is due to Nellie pulling him down, but there are several Z-film reactions that occur between Z290 and Z301, indicating a shot fired at around Z285:
* A blur episode starts at Z290. This indicates the shot was fired at right around Z285, since tests show that it takes 5-7 frames for a person to physically respond to a loud noise, even if they know it's coming.
* William Greer snaps his head to the rear beginning at Z301.
* Roy Kellerman is seen to "duck" his head beginning at Z293. His head tips noticeably forward, in an apparent ducking motion.
* Jean Hill begins to snap her head to the right at around Z295. She is standing to the left of the limousine, across the street from Zapruder. By Z298 we can see she has turned her head and is looking to the rear of the limousine.
Of course, chained down by the lone-gunman theory, WC apologists universally reject a Z285 shot and dismiss the Z290-301 reactions as meaningless.
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Great post, Ben. Just a few facts that help your case:
-- After viewing high-quality prints of the Zapruder frames under high magnification for Life magazine, Connally chose Z234 as the moment of impact, and we see his right shoulder slammed forward in Z238-242, which matches perfectly with his description of the force of the bullet's impact. He also insisted he was certain he was not hit before Z231. When Life asked him about Z228, he said, "there is no question about it. I haven't been hit yet."
But SBT believers must dismiss Connally as "mistaken." Right, the guy who actually experienced the shooting just couldn't tell that he was really hit at Z224!
-- Your point about a shot at around Z295 is valid. I think Connally's forward movement at this time is due to Nellie pulling him down, but there are several Z-film reactions that occur between Z290 and Z301, indicating a shot fired at around Z285:
* A blur episode starts at Z290. This indicates the shot was fired at right around Z285, since tests show that it takes 5-7 frames for a person to physically respond to a loud noise, even if they know it's coming.
* William Greer snaps his head to the rear beginning at Z301.
* Roy Kellerman is seen to "duck" his head beginning at Z293. His head tips noticeably forward, in an apparent ducking motion.
* Jean Hill begins to snap her head to the right at around Z295. She is standing to the left of the limousine, across the street from Zapruder. By Z298 we can see she has turned her head and is looking to the rear of the limousine.
Of course, chained down by the lone-gunman theory, WC apologists universally reject a Z285 shot and dismiss the Z290-301 reactions as meaningless.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
You never answered my question:
Does "former" KGB officer Vladimir Putin pay you, or do you do it for free?
-- Tom
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The Mannlicher Carcano bolt action had to be worked between shots. This meant that a good rifleman could get off shots in about 2.3 seconds, minimum. I call that a "single-shot bolt-action rifle."
My read on the Z-film is that Gov. Connally is struck ~Z-295 and JFK at Z-313, with the film running at 18 frames per second.
This is the one part of about the JFK debate that I feel somewhat confident about.
But hey---others have other views. So it goes. IMHO, caveat emptor, and draw your own conclusions.
The Mannlicher Carcano bolt action had to be worked between shots. This meant that a good rifleman could get off shots in about 2.3 seconds, minimum. I call that a "single-shot bolt-action rifle."
You can call it whatever you wish. But if you want to be correct and at least make it appear that your opinions might be worth reading, it is a repeater bolt action rifle.
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Or just call it a bolt action, but it's definitely not a single shot. I had a single shot shotgun - you actually have to stop and reload it each time. Ditto with an old Mauser. I guess "repeater" is the correct term, but we used to reserve that for lever action rifles like the Winchester the Rifleman (Chuck Connors) had on TV.
I had a humorous experience once with a .25 caliber six-shot handgun a friend had modified to be fully automatic. I fired at a target and it just went "blip." I asked "What happened?" He replied "That was it, six shots." Yep, the magazine was empty. I had absolutely no sense of anything other than a single "blip." There was no blip-blip-blip AT ALL. I still can't quite believe it.
Orr says his 1.75 seconds between the first and second shots is enough time for the Carcano to be worked. He really needs to start paying me for all this free publicity.
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Orr says his 1.75 seconds between the first and second shots is enough time for the Carcano to be worked.
Based on a 2020 analysis, by Brian Roselle and Kenneth Scearce, of the conscious reaction times of seven earwitnesses (including JFK and Jackie) to the sounds of the first shot, it's much more likely that former Marine sharpshooter Oswald took 5.50 seconds between his first (missing-everything) shot and his second (CE-399) shot in the echo chamber known as Dealey Plaza.
https://d7922adf-f499-4a26-96d4-8ab2d521fa35.usrfiles.com/ugd/d7922a_e280e26982b44f2c97c6e6e27026e385.pdf
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Believe it or not, there is actually a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal called "The Journal of Perpetrator Research" - https://jpr.winchesteruniversitypress.org/. My new favorite name - it's sounds like something out of Monty Python skit. The Minister of Silly Perpetrator Research.
Nevertheless, in 2019 Dr, Richard Reiman, Professor of History at South Georgia State College, published a 27-page article entitled "Six ‘Shots’ in Dallas: ‘Framing’ the Perpetrator of the Kennedy Assassination through the Zapruder Film, 1963–2013" - https://jpr.winchesteruniversitypress.org/articles/39/files/submission/proof/39-1-307-1-10-20191018.pdf.
It's a completely LN-supportive piece. He actually refers to the Z film as a Rorschach test and the thesis is basically how the film has been made to say whatever anyone wants over the decades. He places the first shot very early, when Rosemary Willis reacts, has JFK being hit around Z224, and JBC's first obvious reactions around Z235 - but with JBC's "lapel flip" at Z224 being proof he was actually hit at the same time as JFK.
And on it goes. Rorschach test.
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Believe it or not, there is actually a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal called "The Journal of Perpetrator Research" - https://jpr.winchesteruniversitypress.org/. My new favorite name - it's sounds like something out of Monty Python skit. The Minister of Silly Perpetrator Research.
Nevertheless, in 2019 Dr, Richard Reiman, Professor of History at South Georgia State College, published a 27-page article entitled "Six ‘Shots’ in Dallas: ‘Framing’ the Perpetrator of the Kennedy Assassination through the Zapruder Film, 1963–2013" - https://jpr.winchesteruniversitypress.org/articles/39/files/submission/proof/39-1-307-1-10-20191018.pdf.
It's a completely LN-supportive piece. He actually refers to the Z film as a Rorschach test and the thesis is basically how the film has been made to say whatever anyone wants over the decades. He places the first shot very early, when Rosemary Willis reacts, has JFK being hit around Z224, and JBC's first obvious reactions around Z235 - but with JBC's "lapel flip" at Z224 being proof he was actually hit at the same time as JFK.
And on it goes. Rorschach test.
It was probably just a firecracker.
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Believe it or not, there is actually a scholarly, peer-reviewed journal called "The Journal of Perpetrator Research" - https://jpr.winchesteruniversitypress.org/. My new favorite name - it's sounds like something out of Monty Python skit. The Minister of Silly Perpetrator Research.
Nevertheless, in 2019 Dr, Richard Reiman, Professor of History at South Georgia State College, published a 27-page article entitled "Six ‘Shots’ in Dallas: ‘Framing’ the Perpetrator of the Kennedy Assassination through the Zapruder Film, 1963–2013" - https://jpr.winchesteruniversitypress.org/articles/39/files/submission/proof/39-1-307-1-10-20191018.pdf.
It's a completely LN-supportive piece. He actually refers to the Z film as a Rorschach test and the thesis is basically how the film has been made to say whatever anyone wants over the decades. He places the first shot very early, when Rosemary Willis reacts, has JFK being hit around Z224, and JBC's first obvious reactions around Z235 - but with JBC's "lapel flip" at Z224 being proof he was actually hit at the same time as JFK.
Which proves Reiman doesn't know what he's talking about or is just so biased that he won't process evidence that destroys his version of the shooting.
He ignores the scientifically tested blur-episodes evidence. He ignores Connally's unequivocal insistence that he was not hit before Z229. He ignores the fact that lapels cannot magically flip up and down in just 55 milliseconds, and that the "lapel flip" is an optical illusion caused by reflective sunlight (as David Wimp has demonstrated). He ignores the fact that there was no hole through JFK's tie and no fabric missing from the shirt slits, which abjectly destroys the SBT in one fell swoop. He ignores JFK and Jackie's Z200-207 reactions, which prove JFK was hit by the Z186-190 shot. He ignores the fact that JFK's Z224-225 reaction proves he was hit no later than Z220. He ignores JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, which proves he was hit twice before his head was hit. And on and on we could go.
The Zapruder film is indeed a type of Rorschach test, and Reiman and other WC believers keep proving that they are unable to face reality when viewing the film.
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Which proves Reiman doesn't know what he's talking about or is just so biased that he won't process evidence that destroys his version of the shooting.
He ignores the scientifically tested blur-episodes evidence. He ignores Connally's unequivocal insistence that he was not hit before Z229. He ignores the fact that lapels cannot magically flip up and down in just 55 milliseconds, and that the "lapel flip" is an optical illusion caused by reflective sunlight (as David Wimp has demonstrated). He ignores the fact that there was no hole through JFK's tie and no fabric missing from the shirt slits, which abjectly destroys the SBT in one fell swoop. He ignores JFK and Jackie's Z200-207 reactions, which prove JFK was hit by the Z186-190 shot. He ignores the fact that JFK's Z224-225 reaction proves he was hit no later than Z220. He ignores JFK's dramatic Z226-232 reaction, which proves he was hit twice before his head was hit. And on and on we could go.
The Zapruder film is indeed a type of Rorschach test, and Reiman and other WC believers keep proving that they are unable to face reality when viewing the film.
Dear Comrade Griffith,
I'm guessing "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin pays you quite a lot.
Am I right?
-- Tom
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MTG:
Thanks for your collegial comments.
Verily, Connally is recorded as saying what he said to LIFE magazine, and being shot at Z-234.
I don't understand that. He also said he was pushed forward, bent over by the impact of the shot and immediately incapacitated. That seems to happen at ~Z-295.
That Z-295 shot also jives with the sequence of shots many heard, the well-known "bang...bang, bang" sequence.
While I believe in a small conspiracy, I also believe the JFKA immediately became a litmus test for ideology and agenda (see the Kirk assassination and Trump assassination attempts for how this works out).
There are actually lefties suggesting Trump faked the Butler attempt, and that he was not really grazed by a bullet on the top of his ear. Ideologies and agendas are stronger than truth.
LIFE magazine wanted to LN version to prevail. Did they accurately quote Connally, or lean on the photos they showed him? I dunno. LIFE magazine also reported JFK turned in his seat and faced the TSBD before being shot in the throat as seen...in the Z-film, which only they had.
In brief, I believe my own eyes on the Z-film, and nothing in LIFE magazine, circa 1960s, re the JFKA.
IMHO, caveat emptor and draw your own conclusions.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Single-shot_bolt-action_rifles
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Single-shot_bolt-action_rifles
Thank you. Click on the link to the Ferret 50 in the page you provided a link to. Then read the first paragraph.
From the Ferret 50 page (first paragraph):
It is a single-shot, meaning it has no magazine, internal or external.
Yes, there are plenty of single-shot bolt action rifles around. My first .22 caliber rifle was one of them. However, as I said previously, the Carcano found on the sixth floor of the TSBD is not one of them because it has a magazine.
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Or just call it a bolt action, but it's definitely not a single shot. I had a single shot shotgun - you actually have to stop and reload it each time. Ditto with an old Mauser. I guess "repeater" is the correct term, but we used to reserve that for lever action rifles like the Winchester the Rifleman (Chuck Connors) had on TV.
I had a humorous experience once with a .25 caliber six-shot handgun a friend had modified to be fully automatic. I fired at a target and it just went "blip." I asked "What happened?" He replied "That was it, six shots." Yep, the magazine was empty. I had absolutely no sense of anything other than a single "blip." There was no blip-blip-blip AT ALL. I still can't quite believe it.
Orr says his 1.75 seconds between the first and second shots is enough time for the Carcano to be worked. He really needs to start paying me for all this free publicity.
.
Your comment made me curious about the rate of fire in the opening scene of The Rifleman TV show.
(https://i.vgy.me/yaL4En.jpg)
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Yes, you are correct.
I will henceforth refer to the M-C rifle (which some say is technically a carbine) as "single-shot-per-bolt-action" rifle.
I have fired a lot of different weapons (not hardly an expert), but a lot of readers have not. That is why I was referring to the "single shot bolt action rifle," which, as you point out, is something of a misnomer.
Many readers probably have seen semi-automatic or even automatic weapons in action, if only online. I was trying to tell them you have to work the bolt action between shots. Not just squeeze the trigger again.
Gov, Connally knew a lot about guns too, and twice referred to bullets entering the cab of the JFK limo as if fired by "automatic" weapons. I thought he might have meant "semi-automatic" weapons, but he repeated the expression "automatic" in his WC and HSCA testimonies.
That is wild.
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LP--
Well, I enjoyed this report from John Orr, and it may be one of the more-plausible JFKA CT's out there.
Of course, we can sub in anybody for the Dal-Tex shooter--Mafia, anti-Castro Cubans, G-2 double agents, OAS assassins and so on. As LHO confederates were never apprehended, and LHO dead by the mobbed-up Jack Ruby's hand with days...who knows?
Interesting that Sam Holland and Amos Euins both said they heard four shots.
I assume the GK smoke-and-bang show then was a diversion...
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LP--
Well, I enjoyed this report from John Orr, and it may be one of the more-plausible JFKA CT's out there.
Of course, we can sub in anybody for the Dal-Tex shooter--Mafia, anti-Castro Cubans, G-2 double agents, OAS assassins and so on. As LHO confederates were never apprehended, and LHO dead by the mobbed-up Jack Ruby's hand with days...who knows?
Interesting that Sam Holland and Amos Euins both said they heard four shots.
I assume the GK smoke-and-bang show then was a diversion...
Did Euins ever say he heard three shots?
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I am going from memory, but AFAIK Euins maintained he heard four shots.
His description of the shooter wandered a bit, or he was misquoted.
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[...]
It's interesting that you titled this thread "Why I believe in the JFKA conspiracy" instead of "Why I believe in a JFKA conspiracy."
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I am going from memory, but AFAIK Euins maintained he heard four shots.
His description of the shooter wandered a bit, or he was misquoted.
I'm afraid your memory is faulty.
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Pray tell...you have cite?
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Pray tell...you have cite?
You want me to prove a negative -- that Euins didn't "maintain he heard four shots"?
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LP
My needs are rather base and shallow. I am flattered when someone says I have deep psychological needs.
Usually, a pretty girl with big tits is enough for me.
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LP
My needs are rather base and shallow. I am flattered when someone says I have deep psychological needs.
Usually, a pretty girl with big tits is enough for me.
LP?
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Pray tell...you have cite?
Grok:
In the 2011 National Geographic documentary JFK: The Lost Bullet, Amos Euins, who hadn't spoken publicly about the assassination since 1967, was interviewed by journalist Max Holland in Dealey Plaza. Euins described the sequence of shots he heard as "pow (pause), pow-pow," indicating a first shot followed by a pause and then two rapid shots. This supported Holland's theory of an earlier first shot (a "lost bullet") fired before the limousine passed the Stemmons Freeway sign, potentially deflected by a traffic light, with the subsequent shots hitting Kennedy and Connally. Euins also reaffirmed that all shots came from the sixth-floor window of the Texas School Book Depository.
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TG-
I have seen the doc. Holland carefully does not broach the topic of how many shots Euins heard. Yo know Holland, he has a narrative and he will force feed it on viewers. That's fine, everyone has narrative.
Euins told the WC he heard four shots. I heard an audio of Euins' interview with the HSCA, but I forget now what he said.
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I think it is helpful to keep in mind some of the examples from history of huge, complex military operations where only a small fraction of the personnel knew the full scope of the plan.
Take the plan for the D-Day invasion of Normandy in WWII, Operation Overlord, for example, which involved about 200,000 military personnel. The Allied command used strict information security practices and tightly compartmentalized knowledge about Operation Overlord to ensure secrecy.
Only the highest-level commanders were briefed on the full scope and strategic picture of the plan: a grand total of four senior officers (Eisenhower, Montgomery, Ramsay, and Leigh-Mallory). Only about 50 officers were involved in the formulating the plan for Overlord. Perhaps 5,000 officers out of the 160,000 combat personnel who took part in the landings knew parts of the plan, but only small and specific parts. If we add FDR, his top military advisers, and the Joint Chiefs and their staff to the list of people who knew the full scope and all major details of D-Day, that gives us perhaps another 40 people who were fully in the know.
So, let's take those numbers and apply them to the JFK assassination plot that many researchers believe occurred. At most, perhaps 600 people in total played any kind of a role in the JFK murder plot, either in the shooting or in the cover-up. The vast majority had no idea they were even aiding a plot. Some of them were military or government civilian personnel who were ordered to do what they did. Some were led to believe their actions would prevent a Soviet-American nuclear war that would kill tens of millions of Americans.
Since only about 100 people out of the 200,000 D-Day personnel knew the full scope and strategic nature of the D-Day plan, we can logically postulate that no more than 20 or 30 people were the prime movers and planners behind the JFK murder plot. Keeping the ratios from the D-Day plan in mind, perhaps another 15 or 20 people knew specific parts of the murder plot but only the parts that applied to them.
There are innumerable indications that the JFK murder plot did not go as planned and that the plotters were not always able to suppress or anticipate unwanted evidence. Some examples:
-- Connally was not supposed to get hit. His wounding eventually forced the Warren Commission (WC) to concoct the ridiculous single-bullet theory to avoid having to admit there were multiple gunmen.
-- The wounding of Connally also forced the WC to attribute to Oswald a shooting feat that was far beyond his ability and that could not even be duplicated by Master-rated riflemen.
-- The plotters assumed that damning evidence not included in the WC volumes, including the autopsy materials and key FBI reports and evidence photos, would remain sealed for 75 years.
-- The plotters did not realize for at least several weeks that the location of the rear head entry wound had to be changed substantially because it did not line up with a trajectory back to the sixth-floor window.
-- Before the plotters realized they couldn't get away with not publishing the frames of the Zapruder film and that the entry wound in the throat was too problematic for their lone-shooter scenario, they floated the story in Life magazine that the Zapruder film showed JFK turning backward to look behind him and that this was when he was hit in the throat.
-- The plotters did not count on anyone spotting the Oswald imposter, or Oswald himself, getting into a waiting station wagon in Dealey Plaza after the shooting. They especially didn't count on Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig seeing this and his account being broadcast on a local TV station and reported in the newspapers. Had it not been for Craig's account, they probably could have easily buried the three other accounts, because only one of those three mentioned that the man looked like Oswald.
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I think it is helpful to keep in mind some of the examples from history of huge, complex military operations where only a small fraction of the personnel knew the full scope of the plan.
Take the plan for the D-Day invasion of Normandy in WWII, Operation Overlord, for example, which involved about 200,000 military personnel. The Allied command used strict information security practices and tightly compartmentalized knowledge about Operation Overlord to ensure secrecy.
Only the highest-level commanders were briefed on the full scope and strategic picture of the plan: a grand total of four senior officers (Eisenhower, Montgomery, Ramsay, and Leigh-Mallory). Only about 50 officers were involved in the formulating the plan for Overlord. Perhaps 5,000 officers out of the 160,000 combat personnel who took part in the landings knew parts of the plan, but only small and specific parts. If we add FDR, his top military advisers, and the Joint Chiefs and their staff to the list of people who knew the full scope and all major details of D-Day, that gives us perhaps another 40 people who were fully in the know.
So, let's take those numbers and apply them to the JFK assassination plot that many researchers believe occurred. At most, perhaps 600 people in total played any kind of a role in the JFK murder plot, either in the shooting or in the cover-up. The vast majority had no idea they were even aiding a plot. Some of them were military or government civilian personnel who were ordered to do what they did. Some were led to believe their actions would prevent a Soviet-American nuclear war that would kill tens of millions of Americans.
Since only about 100 people out of the 200,000 D-Day personnel knew the full scope and strategic nature of the D-Day plan, we can logically postulate that no more than 20 or 30 people were the prime movers and planners behind the JFK murder plot. Keeping the ratios from the D-Day plan in mind, perhaps another 15 or 20 people knew specific parts of the murder plot but only the parts that applied to them.
There are innumerable indications that the JFK murder plot did not go as planned and that the plotters were not always able to suppress or anticipate unwanted evidence. Some examples:
-- Connally was not supposed to get hit. His wounding eventually forced the Warren Commission (WC) to concoct the ridiculous single-bullet theory to avoid having to admit there were multiple gunmen.
-- The wounding of Connally also forced the WC to attribute to Oswald a shooting feat that was far beyond his ability and that could not even be duplicated by Master-rated riflemen.
-- The plotters assumed that damning evidence not included in the WC volumes, including the autopsy materials and key FBI reports and evidence photos, would remain sealed for 75 years.
-- The plotters did not realize for at least several weeks that the location of the rear head entry wound had to be changed substantially because it did not line up with a trajectory back to the sixth-floor window.
-- Before the plotters realized they couldn't get away with not publishing the frames of the Zapruder film and that the entry wound in the throat was too problematic for their lone-shooter scenario, they floated the story in Life magazine that the Zapruder film showed JFK turning backward to look behind him and that this was when he was hit in the throat.
-- The plotters did not count on anyone spotting the Oswald imposter, or Oswald himself, getting into a waiting station wagon in Dealey Plaza after the shooting. They especially didn't count on Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig seeing this and his account being broadcast on a local TV station and reported in the newspapers. Had it not been for Craig's account, they probably could have easily buried the three other accounts, because only one of those three mentioned that the man looked like Oswald.
Well...I dunno.
If someone was plotting the JFKA, how would they approach possible co-conspirators? And if a possible co-conspirator said, "No. You are nuts to even propose such a thing." Then what? Murder that guy?
No one ever came forward and said, "Oh I was approached to participate, but I did not. These are the guys who propositioned me (then names names)."
If the plotters approached anyone, and that someone refused to participate...then the plotters would either have to scrub the plot, or rely on the non-participant to keep quiet. That's dicier than a Vegas craps game in a back-alley with armed and drugged gangsters.
Post-JFKA, there hasn't been a single convincing confession of participation in the JFKA. Indeed, the only JFKA suspect known beyond reasonable doubt to be in DP on 11/22 is...LHO. No one has ever explained the JFKA plot, or plotters, with any believability.
This leads me to conclude the JFK plot was very small, perhaps two Alpha 66'ers and LHO. The Alpha 66'ers (Diaz and Del Valle) were dead by 1966 and 1967, respectively. Dead men tell no tales.
Beside, we know how the "Deep State" removes presidents from power. See Nixon, Carter and Trump. They manipulate media, partisan animosities, weaponize prosecutorial agencies.
My guess: The plotters behind the JFKA had no institutional power in the US, so they chose assassination. They were motivated by intense nationalism and ideology, and possibly revenge for the BoP.
That likely points to Cuban exiles, but possibly KGB, G-2 assets, perhaps Marcello mobsters.
Comfortable members of elites are in no hurry. Was life bad for the rich in the US in 1963? Hardly.
Was Vietnam important? No.
JFK was an ardent anti-communist, and vowed to contest Russia and Cuba in the New World, and elsewhere.
The James Douglass hagiography is left-wing baloney.
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We know how the "Deep State" removes presidents from power. See Nixon, Carter and Trump. They manipulate media, partisan animosities, weaponize prosecutorial agencies.
Your saying the "Deep State" removed Trump from office is rich, given the fact that it was "former" KGB counterintelligence officer Vladimir Putin's hackers and professional St. Petersburg trolls, with help from Julian Assange, Paul Manafort, GRU officer Konstantin Kilimnik, and Oleg Deripaska, et al. ad nauseam -- and with possible help from Roger "I Have A Back Channel To Trump" Stone and Harley Schlanger -- who put Trump in the White House in the first place.
There's the real "Deep State."
Unfortunately, it seems as though you (and 95% of the population) have been zombified by its successful waging of disinformation, "active measures, and mole-based strategic deception counterintelligence operations against us and our NATO allies for the past sixty-six years (it started in 1959).
Thank you in advance for your cordial comments.
"Quaeso me cochleari KGB suffoca."