JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Tom Graves on September 10, 2025, 09:05:11 AM
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Moved here from another thread:
Lovelady and/or Shelley said they started walking towards the railway yard when Gloria Calvery came up to them (factoid: Shelley had been best man at Calvery's wedding) and told them that JFK had been shot.
We know that big/tall, black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing Calvery was standing only about 50 feet down Elm Street from the front steps with her three headscarf-wearing work colleagues at the time of the assassination.
We know that she is standing with her back to the camera on a lower TSBD step in Couch-Darnell, next to her dressed-in-all-white colleague, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed (who seems to be going up the steps), about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Even if it took Calvery and her colleague 5-10 seconds to walk/run the 50 feet to the steps after the final shot, Lovelady and Shelley still had 15-20 seconds to get to where they appear to be (approaching Royell Storing's HUGE GATES) in Couch Darnell.
In other words, the timing works.
*Calvery is #172, mislabeled as "Jean McKenna?" in this 2009 drawn-to-scale diagram of Dealey Plaza by Craig Ciccone. We do know that Calvery was standing immediately to the left of John Templin (#324) in the Zapruder film.
https://craigciccone.blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/img_3534.jpg
-- Tom
PS It looks as though Calvery was wearing a dark-blue blouse and a dark-blue headscarf that day, not black as I've always mistakenly said.
My bad.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23665-photographic-identification-of-gloria-calvery-karan-hicks-and-carol-reed/
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Moved here from another thread:
Lovelady and/or Shelley said they started walking towards the railway yard when Gloria Calvery came up to them (factoid: Shelley had been best man at Calvery's wedding) and told them that JFK had been shot.
We know that big/tall, black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing Calvery was standing only about 50 feet down Elm Street from the front steps with her three headscarf-wearing work colleagues at the time of the assassination.
We know that she is standing with her back to the camera on a lower TSBD step in Couch-Darnell, next to her dressed-in-all-white colleague, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed (who seems to be going up the steps), about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Even if it took Calvery and her colleague 5-10 seconds to walk/run the 50 feet to the steps after the final shot, Lovelady and Shelley still had 15-20 seconds to get to where they appear to be (approaching Royell Storing's HUGE GATES) in Couch Darnell.
In other words, the timing works.
*Calvery is #172, mislabeled as "Jean McKenna?" in this 2009 drawn-to-scale diagram of Dealey Plaza by Craig Ciccone. We do know that Calvery was standing immediately to the left of John Templin (#324) in the Zapruder film.
https://craigciccone.blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/img_3534.jpg
-- Tom
PS It looks as though Calvery was wearing a dark-blue blouse and a dark-blue headscarf that day, not black as I've always mistakenly said.
My bad.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23665-photographic-identification-of-gloria-calvery-karan-hicks-and-carol-reed/
You're forgetting that both Shelley and Lovelady told the WC the same lie - that it took Gloria at least 3 minutes to reach the steps (not 25 seconds).
In his same day affidavit, Shelley reveals that he went across the Elm Street extension where he bumped into Gloria, who was running towards the TSBD building. This is detail goes missing in his WC testimony. Instead he "remembers" something that didn't happen, that he was on the steps when Gloria came up at least 3 minutes after the shooting.
Shelley and Lovelady do not walk to the railroad yard after Gloria comes up to them. According to their WC testimonies they walk to the concrete spur that divides the Elm Streets. Both men refer to this spur in exactly the same way, as a "little, old island", even though it's not an "island". While they are at the "island" Shelley states that he turns and sees Baker and Truly outside the TSBD building but, as we can see in the Darnell footage, this is just another lie.
Taking their same-day affidavits at face value - Shelley and Lovelady are stood on the front steps at the time of the shooting, after which Shelley moves across to the spur where he meets Gloria coming the other way. He returns to the front steps and both he and Lovelady (who hasn't moved from the steps) enter the TSBD building. Approximately one minute after the shooting Vicki Adams sees them near the elevators at the back of the first floor. They are the two white men Baker sees in the area near the elevators.
The moment Gloria tells Lovelady about JFK being shot is captured by Darnell. Lovelady is still on the steps, Shelley is near the bottom of the steps having just returned from the concrete spur. In the short footage from which this still is taken, Shelley can be seen moving towards the steps before turning.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT56n7Yk/Darnellclose-Truly-Bakerand-Others.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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You're forgetting that both Shelley and Lovelady told the WC the same lie - that it took Gloria at least 3 minutes to reach the steps (not 25 seconds).
In his same day affidavit, Shelley reveals that he went across the Elm Street extension where he bumped into Gloria, who was running towards the TSBD building. This is detail goes missing in his WC testimony. Instead he "remembers" something that didn't happen, that he was on the steps when Gloria came up at least 3 minutes after the shooting.
Shelley and Lovelady do not walk to the railroad yard after Gloria comes up to them. According to their WC testimonies they walk to the concrete spur that divides the Elm Streets. Both men refer to this spur in exactly the same way, as a "little, old island", even though it's not an "island". While they are at the "island" Shelley states that he turns and sees Baker and Truly outside the TSBD building but, as we can see in the Darnell footage, this is just another lie.
Taking their same-day affidavits at face value - Shelley and Lovelady are stood on the front steps at the time of the shooting, after which Shelley moves across to the spur where he meets Gloria coming the other way. He returns to the front steps and both he and Lovelady (who hasn't moved from the steps) enter the TSBD building. Approximately one minute after the shooting Vicki Adams sees them near the elevators at the back of the first floor. They are the two white men Baker sees in the area near the elevators.
The moment Gloria tells Lovelady about JFK being shot is captured by Darnell. Lovelady is still on the steps, Shelley is near the bottom of the steps having just returned from the concrete spur. In the short footage from which this still is taken, Shelley can be seen moving towards the steps before turning.
O'meara,
Is it just a coincidence that the suit-wearing "Shelley figure" in Couch-Darnell has a pompadour hairstyle like Shelley's, and that the "Lovelady character" is wearing a bold plaid shirt like Lovelady's and . . . gasp . . . has a bald spot on the top-rear of his head just like Lovelady?
-- Tom
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Moved here from another thread:
Lovelady and/or Shelley said they started walking towards the railway yard when Gloria Calvery came up to them (factoid: Shelley had been best man at Calvery's wedding) and told them that JFK had been shot.
We know that big/tall, black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing Calvery was standing only about 50 feet down Elm Street from the front steps with her three headscarf-wearing work colleagues at the time of the assassination.
We know that she is standing with her back to the camera on a lower TSBD step in Couch-Darnell, next to her dressed-in-all-white colleague, Karan Hicks or Carol Reed (who seems to be going up the steps), about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Even if it took Calvery and her colleague 5-10 seconds to walk/run the 50 feet to the steps after the final shot, Lovelady and Shelley still had 15-20 seconds to get to where they appear to be (approaching Royell Storing's HUGE GATES) in Couch Darnell.
In other words, the timing works.
*Calvery is #172, mislabeled as "Jean McKenna?" in this 2009 drawn-to-scale diagram of Dealey Plaza by Craig Ciccone. We do know that Calvery was standing immediately to the left of John Templin (#324) in the Zapruder film.
https://craigciccone.blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/img_3534.jpg
-- Tom
PS It looks as though Calvery was wearing a dark-blue blouse and a dark-blue headscarf that day, not black as I've always mistakenly said.
My bad.
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23665-photographic-identification-of-gloria-calvery-karan-hicks-and-carol-reed/
The woman you claim is Calvery on the Darnell Film, how long after we see DPD Officer Smith running down the Elm St Ext are we seeing this woman? The currently accepted timeline with respect to Officer Smith as seen on the Darnell Film is about 30 seconds after the Kill Shot. Calvery was originally positioned close to the Stemmons Sign. So how much time has elapsed after the Kill Shot are we seeing this woman "on the lower TSBD Step"? Also, I believe Calvery and her chums are on film walking from high to low across the Knoll in front of the Pergola after the Kill Shot. They are very shaken/upset. Are you claiming that Calvery was at, "the lower TSBD Step" and then she and her buddies turned around and went up the Knoll and then were filmed coming back down the knoll? As shaken as these women are on this film, I doubt they go from the Stemmons sign to the TSBD, turn around, walk down Elm St, walk up the knoll, and walk down the Knoll in the direction of Thornton sign. Their emotional state does not jibe with this back-n-forth, up-and-down travel. I think that woman at the "lower TSBD Step" on the Darnell Film is Not Calvery. Remember that you are ID'ing her from the Back.
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O'meara,
Is it just a coincidence that the suit-wearing "Shelley figure" in Couch-Darnell has a pompadour hairstyle like Shelley's, and that the "Lovelady character" is wearing a bold plaid shirt like Lovelady's and . . . gasp . . . has a bald spot on the top-rear of his head just like Lovelady?
-- Tom
Pinko,
Is it just a coincidence that the suit-wearing "Shelley figure" in the Darnell pic below has a pompadour hairstyle like Shelley's, and that the "Lovelady character" is wearing a bold plaid shirt like Lovelady's?
Remember, my identification is supported by the testimonial evidence whereas your identification is refuted by the testimonial evidence.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzK3VBXj/Calvery-at-steps-close1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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The woman you claim is Calvery on the Darnell Film, how long after we see DPD Officer Smith running down the Elm St Ext are we seeing this woman? The currently accepted timeline with respect to Officer Smith as seen on the Darnell Film is about 30 seconds after the Kill Shot. Calvery was originally positioned close to the Stemmons Sign. So how much time has elapsed after the Kill Shot are we seeing this woman "on the lower TSBD Step"? Also, I believe Calvery and her chums are on film walking from high to low across the Knoll in front of the Pergola after the Kill Shot. They are very shaken/upset. Are you claiming that Calvery was at, "the lower TSBD Step" and then she and her buddies turned around and went up the Knoll and then were filmed coming back down the knoll? As shaken as these women are on this film, I doubt they go from the Stemmons sign to the TSBD, turn around, walk down Elm St, walk up the knoll, and walk down the Knoll in the direction of Thornton sign. Their emotional state does not jibe with this back-n-forth, up-and-down travel. I think that woman at the "lower TSBD Step" on the Darnell Film is Not Calvery. Remember that you are ID'ing her from the Back.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Big/tall Gloria Calvery and her three head-scarf-wearing South West Publishing Company colleagues were not standing very near the Stemmons freeway sign.
Perhaps you're still confusing her with self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her two TSBD work colleagues -- whose statements mistakenly put them on the other side of Elm Street -- Gloria Jeanne Holt and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons -- as they appear in the Zapruder film to be standing right next to the Stemmons sign but in fact were some distance away from it towards the TSBD.
Bottom line: Calvary and her group were standing even closer to the TSBD than Jacob and her group were, and therefore she was only about 60 feet from the steps during the motorcade.
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Big/tall Gloria Calvery and her three head-scarf-wearing South West Publishing Company colleagues were not standing very near the Stemmons freeway sign.
Perhaps you're still confusing her with self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her two TSBD work colleagues -- whose statements mistakenly put them on the other side of Elm Street -- Gloria Jeanne Holt and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons -- as they appear in the Zapruder film to be standing right next to the Stemmons sign but in fact were some distance away from it towards the TSBD.
Bottom line: Calvary and her group were standing even closer to the TSBD than Jacob and her group were, and therefore she was only about 60 feet from the steps during the motorcade.
-- Tom
I just took a look at my large, detailed map of Dealey Plaza 11/22/63. It details the autos in the Rail Road yard, who was standing where, extremely detailed. It has Calvary standing about 3/4 of the way down the sidewalk between the corner and the Stemmons Sign.
Again, how long after we see DPD Officer Smith running down the Elm St Ext are we seeing the BACK of this lady?
Thus far, you have supplied no evidence to corroborate that being the BACK of Calvary.
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Thus far you have supplied no evidence to corroborate that we are seeing the back of Gloria Calvary as she's standing next to her dressed-in-all-white work colleague on the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the final shot. [paraphrased]
Dear Comrade Storing,
I'm not going to "reinvent the wheel" just for you.
If you're interested in how in 2017 or so (JFKA CT!!!) Sandy Larsen and I located Calvery in the Zapruder film, and how we then located her on the TSBD steps about 25 seconds after the final shot, go to the so-called JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum and do some poking around on the issue.
Hint: You might want to first read what Sandy and I posted about the misidentification of self-described American Indian Stella Mae Jacob and her two TSBD work colleagues, Gloria Jeanne Holt and light-blue-headscarf-wearing Sharon Simmons, in the Zapruder film and in a later section of the Darnell film as they're walking back towards the TSBD.
Here, I'll help you get started:
https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23721-photographic-identification-of-stella-jacob-gloria-holt-and-sharon-simmons/#comment-349815
Enjoy!
-- Tom
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So you are claiming that Calvery went from that far down the sidewalk to the foot of the TSBD in 25 Seconds after the Kill Shot? You have a very serious timeline issue right outta the box.
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So you are claiming that Calvery went from that far down the sidewalk to the foot of the TSBD in 25 Seconds after the Kill Shot? You have a very serious timeline issue right outta the box.
Dear Comrade Storing,
Sixty feet is a long distance to cover in 5 to 10 seconds?
Regardless, maybe this will help you.
Scroll down to the second photo in the fourth row.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Bronson%20Gallery
Just in front of the silver-colored convertible, you can see a black "blob" with a light-blue thingy on top.
That back "blob" is Stella Mae Jacob and/or Gloria Jeanne Holt with Sharon Simmons, and the light-blue "thingy" is the light-blue headscarf that Simmons was wearing that day.
You can see the pole for the Stemmons Freeway sign to their left.
Factoid: From this perspective, Gloria Calvery and her group were standing about 10-15 feet to the right of Jacob and her group during the motorcade.
-- Tom
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Dear Comrade Storing,
Sixty feet is a long distance to cover in 5 to 10 seconds?
Regardless, maybe this will help you.
Scroll down to the second photo in the fourth row.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Bronson%20Gallery
Just in front of the silver-colored convertible, you can see a black "blob" with a light-blue thingy on top.
That back "blob" is Stella Mae Jacob and/or Gloria Jeanne Holt with Sharon Simmons, and the light-blue "thingy" is the light-blue headscarf that Simmons was wearing that day.
You can see the pole for the Stemmons Freeway sign to their left.
Factoid: From this perspective, Gloria Calvery and her group were standing about 10-15 feet to the right of Jacob and her group during the motorcade.
-- Tom
60 feet? That would only be 20 yards. Try half a football field = 150 feet/50 yards. For Calvery to cover half a football field in 25 seconds immediately following the Kill Shot is a very serious timeline issue.
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60 feet? That would only be 20 yards. Try half a football field = 150 feet/50 yards. For Calvery to cover half a football field in 25 seconds immediately following the Kill Shot is a very serious timeline issue.
Okay, make it 100 feet.
(I made a mistake the first time I measured it with my makeshift ruler.)
How long do you think it took Calvary to run the 100 feet to the steps?
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Okay, make it 100 feet.
(I made a mistake the first time I measured it with my makeshift ruler.)
How long do you think it took Calvary to run the 100 feet to the steps?
As I said, 1/2 a football field = 150 feet. That is roughly the distance Calvery had to cover in 25 seconds after the Kill Shot. You need to address the Calvery timeline issue before we get into the ID being applied to the BACK of someone.
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As I said, 1/2 a football field = 150 feet. That is roughly the distance Calvery had to cover in 25 seconds after the Kill Shot. You need to address the Calvery timeline issue before we get into the ID being applied to the BACK of someone.
Comrade Storing,
As I said, go to the so-called JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum website and find the articles that Sandy Larsen and I wrote about Calvery's location during the motorcade and where she was about 25 seconds after the assassination.
Just take it from Sandy and me -- that's big/tall Calvery standing next to her slender, dressed-in-all-white work colleague on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Calvery (and her dressed-in-all-white colleague) can even be seen in Betzner-3 standing on the other side of the Secret Service follow-up car just before JFK was shot. Interestingly, JFKA CT/Contrarian John Iacoletti, denying that this woman was Calvery, labeled her "Glasses Woman" until he realized that Calvery always wore big, ugly, black-framed glasses, at which point he started referring to the woman in Betzner-3 (Calvary) by some other moniker.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Betzner%20Gallery
Regardless, I believe we can see Lovelady and Shelley walking/running in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot in the Couch-Darnell clip. If I'm right, and if Lovelady and Shelley were telling the truth when they said they left the steps as soon as Calvery told them that JFK had been shot, then it's logical to assume that Calvery covered your 150 feet / 50 yards in about ten seconds (heck, I used to run it in about six) and told Lovelady and Shelley that JFK had been shot, thereby giving them about ten seconds to get almost to your HUGE GATES!!!
-- Tom
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Comrade Storing,
As I said, go to the so-called JFK Assassination Debate - Education Forum website and find the articles that Sandy Larsen and I wrote about Calvery's location during the motorcade and where she was about 25 seconds after the assassination.
Just take it from Sandy and me -- that's big/tall Calvery standing next to her slender, dressed-in-all-white work colleague on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell about 25 seconds after the final shot.
Calvery (and her dressed-in-all-white colleague) can even be seen in Betzner-3 standing on the other side of the Secret Service follow-up car just before JFK was shot. Interestingly, JFKA CT/Contrarian John Iacoletti, denying that this woman was Calvery, labeled her "Glasses Woman" until he realized that Calvery always wore big, ugly, black-framed glasses, at which point he started referring to the woman in Betzner-3 (Calvary) by some other moniker.
https://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/Gallery/Betzner%20Gallery
Regardless, I believe we can see Lovelady and Shelley walking/running in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot in the Couch-Darnell clip. If I'm right, and if Lovelady and Shelley were telling the truth when they said they left the steps as soon as Calvery told them that JFK had been shot, then it's logical to assume that Calvery covered your 150 feet / 50 yards in about ten seconds (heck, I used to run it in about six) and told Lovelady and Shelley that JFK had been shot, thereby giving them about ten seconds to get almost to your HUGE GATES!!!
-- Tom
I believe you have a better argument questioning the current Darnell Film Snippet timeline vs claiming Calvery traveled 1/2 a football field in only 25 seconds immediately after the Kill Shot.
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I believe you have a better argument questioning the current Darnell Film Snippet timeline vs claiming Calvery traveled 1/2 a football field in only 25 seconds immediately after the Kill Shot.
Good Lord.
I used to run 300 feet in 10.8 seconds (Not bad for a big clodhopper like you," my dad said)
Regardless, Calvery probably met Shelley and/or Lovelady near the "island" (Shelley had been best man at her wedding, and he and Lovelady must have seen and heard her as she ran up the street bawling like a dying calf in a thunderstorm).
If so, she obviously continued on her way to the steps when they started heading for the railway yard / parking lot.
Which probably means that Adams and Styles took a lot longer to get to the first floor than they remembered, that they didn't start down until Truly and Baker had finished talking with Oswald, and that and if they saw Lovelady and/or Shelley (or vice versa) when they finally got to the first floor, it must have been after Lovelady and Shelley had returned to the TSBD.