JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate => Topic started by: Bill Brown on July 07, 2025, 10:45:37 PM
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TIPPIT SHOOTING, 1:15-1:16
Mary Wright stated that she heard the shots and called the police immediately after the shooting. (interview with George & Patricia Nash)
Barbara Davis heard the shots and stated that, from the door, she saw Helen Markham across the street yelling that a police officer was shot and killed and then she saw a man with a gun walking across her front yard. Davis looked over and saw the police car. Immediately after seeing the police car, she went inside and phoned the operator and reported the shooting to the police. (affidavit, 11/22/63)
L.J. Lewis was at the Johnny Reynolds Motor Company, located one block south of the shooting. He called the police immediately after hearing the gunshots and seeing a man with a gun trotting down Patton toward Jefferson. (affidavit, 8/26/64)
Murray Jackson, the police radio dispatcher, received an alert at 1:17 from the "citizen using the police radio" (T.F. Bowley). Upon being told by the citizen that a policeman had been shot and that it was on Tenth Street between Marsalis & Beckley, Jackson immediately calls out for "78". After getting no response, he again calls out for "78". Jackson is calling out for "78" because that is Tippit's call number. On 11/22/63, Tippit was "78". That he calls out for Tippit after receiving the alert from the "citizen using the police radio" tells us that at 1:17, Jackson was made aware, for the very first time, that Tippit had been shot.
Since we know that Mary Wright, Barbara Davis and L.J. Lewis called the police immediately... and we know that Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) was unaware of the shooting until 1:17, it becomes painfully obvious that Wright, Davis and Lewis phoned in the shooting at a point in time just before the "citizen using the police radio" alerted Jackson. If these three witnesses had phoned in the shooting much earlier, then Jackson would have been already made aware of the shooting by the time Bowley reported it at 1:17 and would have put an all-points bulletin. No all-points bulletin was put out by dispatch until AFTER dispatch (Jackson) was alerted at 1:17 by Bowley using the patrol car radio.
Once a citizen picks up the telephone to call the police to report a shooting, how long does it take for that information to reach the police dispatcher? The citizen picks up the phone and dials zero to reach the operator. The operator answers and the citizen asks to be transferred to the police department to report a shooting. The citizen is transferred to the police department. The person on duty answering the phone at the police station asks the citizen for the information of what occurred and where. The citizen quickly explains that someone has been shot on Tenth Street in Oak Cliff. The phone operator at the police department then writes down the information onto a slip and sends it down a conveyor belt, if you will, straight to the police dispatcher. Once he receives the slip, the dispatcher (in this case, Murray Jackson) puts out the information over the air waves to all patrol cars in Dallas. The entire process from the time Wright, Davis and Lewis make their phone call to the time Jackson receives the information would take 60 to 90 seconds at the most. This means that by the time Bowley alerts Jackson at 1:17 that there was a shooting of an officer on Tenth Street and Jackson was unaware until that moment, combined with how long it would take the information from Mary Wright's phone call to reach Jackson (60 to 90 seconds), and Wright called immediately after hearing the shots, that the shooting occurred at 1:15-1:16.
The bottom line is that Jackson doesn't know Tippit was shot until 1:17, yet Wright, Davis and Lewis called the police immediately after the shots. Translation... Wright, Davis and Lewis called the police around 1:16. If they had called any earlier, then Jackson would have already known about the shooting by the time Bowley reported it to Jackson at 1:17.
This matter-of-factly puts the Tippit shooting at 1:15-1:16.
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If they had called any earlier, then Jackson would have already known about the shooting by the time Bowley reported it to Jackson at 1:17.
Your opinion of what someone "should have known" at a particular time doesn't mean very much.
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This is a slightly tweaked rehash of Dale Myers' discredited "stop-watch" analysis of the time of the Tippit shooting. I address the time of the shooting in detail in my article "Did Oswald Shoot Tippit?":
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_j_022lJYli3B5Xyw8wLs-0nl6mDLo2t/view
I quote from part of my discussion on the issue:
This is a critical issue. Myers claims that Tippit was shot at 1:14:30, but the weight of
the evidence clearly indicates that the shooting occurred between 1:08 and 1:10, too
soon for Oswald to have walked to the scene. Moreover, two witnesses said that
Oswald entered the Texas Theater just a few minutes after 1:00 P.M., and that he
remained in the theater until he was arrested there about an hour later (Tom Lyons,
“The Ruddy Link Between the Tippit Murder and the Texas Theater,” The Fourth
Decade, July 1997, 4:5, p. 6).
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The foundation of Myers' argument regarding when the Tippit shooting occurred is his
"stop-watch analysis" of the police tapes. Although the DPD and FBI transcripts have
Bowley calling the dispatcher at about 1:16, and even though Bowley said it was 1:10
when he first arrived to the scene, Myers says his stop-watch review of the tapes shows
Bowley did not make the call until 1:17:41 (p. 92). If Bowley did not call the police
dispatcher till 1:17:41, why did the Sheriff's Department dispatcher apparently begin to
respond to the shooting at 1:16, as the Sheriff's Office tape transcript seems to show
(17 H 372)?
Almost immediately after the 1:16 time notation, the Sheriff's dispatcher tells all units to
stay off the radio unless they have important traffic. Then, the dispatcher tries to contact
any squads in the area of "Jefferson and East 10th, 510 East Jefferson and 10th." This
is significant because this address is a combination of the address that Bowley and
dispatcher Hulse gave over the police radio. A deputy sheriff responds, and the
dispatcher tells him to remain in the area and to be on the watch for emergency
vehicles. . . .
The bulk of the evidence indicates that Tippit was shot several minutes earlier than
Myers can allow, and several minutes before Oswald could have arrived at the scene.
Myers sidesteps most of this evidence. For example, Myers fails to mention that Mrs.
Markham felt certain Tippit was shot at around 1:06 or 1:07. Bowley's watch-checked
time of 1:10 for his arrival at the scene matches well with Markham's time of 1:06-1:07
for the shooting and with Benavides' account that he waited a few minutes before he
approached the patrol car. It also corresponds with other eyewitness estimates of when
the shooting occurred.
The evidence clearly indicates that Tippit was shot very soon after he exited his car at
1:08. Tippit’s last transmission was at 1:08 and was mostly likely made to let the
dispatcher know that he was exiting his car, which was standard procedure. And, as
mentioned, Bowley arrived at the scene at 1:10. Thus, Markham’s time of 1:06 or 1:07
for the shooting is very close to the mark. Perhaps Myers did not think he could afford to
mention Mrs. Markham's comments about when the shooting occurred because he had
already noted that Markham was en route to her regular 1:12-1:15 bus when she
witnessed the Tippit slaying. Several other facts support Mrs. Markham's statements
about the time of the shooting.
Mrs. Markham said that she left her apartment building at 1:04, that it would have taken
her about 2 minutes to walk from her apartment building to the Tippit scene, that she
walked to her bus stop every day, and that she had a routine of leaving at 1:00 to catch
her bus. Myers would have us believe that Markham erred substantially, by 7 minutes,
in her recollection of when she left her apartment building, even though she noted that
as she was leaving she glanced at the clock in the laundry room of her apartment
building and that the clock read 1:04. Nonetheless, Myers argues that Mrs. Markham
was mistaken.
There's also the fact that Jackson's 12:45 transmission sending Tippit to Oak Cliff is highly suspect, as I discuss in my article. The first transcript submitted by the DPD contained no such instruction. It did not magically manifest itself until four months later. From my article:
Anyway, four months after the assassination, the FBI reported that they discovered
the 12:45 instruction. Hurt continues,
Not only was such an inexplicable instruction believed to be unique in the Dallas
Police Department, it also had not been in the first transcript. Moreover, none of
the police supervisors who testified earlier indicated that they knew anything
about it. . . .
From the beginning, there were peculiarities that surrounded not only the
fortuitous emergence of the evidence but also the specific radio dispatch. As
critic Meagher points out, the dispatch was made at the very height of the bedlam
that engulfed the Dallas Police Department during the minutes following the
assassination. No event in the city's history had created such frenzy. Not only
was the police switchboard jammed, but police officers had difficulty getting
through with crucially important radio messages concerning the state of
emergency in the wake of the assassination of President Kennedy.
Yet, there was time, at the height of this turbulence, for the dispatcher to order
Tippit and one other officer--who, if he heard the order, did not obey it--to move
into central Oak Cliff, where at that time there was not a single significant crime
that needed police attention. (Reasonable Doubt, pp. 160-161)
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Your opinion of what someone "should have known" at a particular time doesn't mean very much.
You're not paying attention. Typical.
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Mr. BELIN. Within the general area of Number 11 on Exhibit 523. Now, Mr. Scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you stopped at your intersection. You had a coke and your lunch.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing, eating your lunch?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I was in the process of eating it.
Mr. BELIN. You were in the process?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a couple of swallows out of my coke.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. DULLES. What time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Around 1:20 in the afternoon.
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Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the Tippit shooting?
Mr. SCOGGINS. When I was down there giving my statement to my supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and I said I don't have any idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said it was 1:23.
Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it was 1:23 in the afternoon.
Mr. BELIN. When you called in after the shooting?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
If the Tippit shooting occurred at 1:07 (ish), are we to believe that it took William Scoggins sixteen minutes before he reached his dispatcher to call for help?
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You're not paying attention. Typical.
:D Is that your stock answer ? Too bad none of the times stamps can be relied upon.
So your starting time is bogus.
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:D Is that your stock answer ? Too bad none of the times stamps can be relied upon.
So your starting time is bogus.
So then you DO foolishly believe that it took Scoggins about 16 minutes to reach his dispatcher in order to ask for help. Okay.
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So then you DO foolishly believe that it took Scoggins about 16 minutes to reach his dispatcher in order to ask for help. Okay.
Straw man. Garbage.
Scoggins gave times of arriving as 1:00p / 1:05p / 1:25p - He doesn't know what time it was.
And you don't know what time that call came into City Transportation Co.
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461145
His supervisor said that the initial action of the call was to notify the Dallas Police Department immediately.
It was noted that due to the urgent nature of the message, the logging of the message into their records may have been delayed while notifying police first.
You are making up times to equate a 1:15 (approx) shooting.
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Straw man. Garbage.
Scoggins gave times of arriving as 1:00p / 1:05p / 1:25p - He doesn't know what time it was.
And you don't know what time that call came into City Transportation Co.
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7461145
His supervisor said that the initial action of the call was to notify the Dallas Police Department immediately.
It was noted that due to the urgent nature of the message, the logging of the message into their records may have been delayed while notifying police first.
You are making up times to equate a 1:15 (approx) shooting.
Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it was 1:23 in the afternoon.
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Mr. BELIN. That is the time that he recorded it?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes. He must have recorded it up there because he said it was 1:23 in the afternoon.
BS: That doesn't have to equate to a 1:15 shooting
His supervisor said that the initial action of the call was to notify the Dallas Police Department immediately.
It was noted that due to the urgent nature of the message, the logging of the message into their records may have been delayed while notifying police first.
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:D Is that your stock answer ? Too bad none of the times stamps can be relied upon.
So your starting time is bogus.
:D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
If as predicted, you say no time stamps can be relied upon then the multiple eyewitnesses must be given a greater emphasis.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. V DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in that room?
Mrs. B DAVIS. Yes, sir. I recognized number 2.
Mr. CALLAWAY. No. And he said, "We want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. We think he is the same one that shot the President. But if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." So they brought four men in.
I stepped to the back of the room, so I could kind of see him from the same distance which I had seen him before. And when he came out, I knew him.
Mr. BALL. You mean he looked like the same man?
Mr. CALLAWAY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you do?
Mr. GUINYARD. I was looking--trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running---came right through the yard in front of the big white house---there's a big two-story white house---there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.
Mr. BELIN - You used the name Oswald. How did you know this man was Oswald?
Mr. BENAVIDES - From the pictures I had seen. It looked like a guy, resembled the guy. That was the reason I figured it was Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me show you some pictures that we have here. I show you a picture that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the 22d of November as you have already told us.
Mr.REYNOLDS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Four? Did any one of the people look anything like strike that. Did you identify anyone in the lineup?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I identified the one we are talking about, Oswald. I identified him.
RUSSELL positively identified a photograph of LEE HARVEY OSWALD, New Orleans Police Department # 112723, taken August 9, 1963, as being identical with the individual he had observed at the scene of the shooting of Dallas Police Officer J.D. TIPPIT on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, at Dallas, Texas.
Mr. BALL. What about number two, what did you mean when you said number two?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Number two was the man I saw shoot the policeman.
The eyewitnesses who positively identified Oswald and confirmed he was carrying a gun and many of those eyewitnesses describe the same type of gun that Oswald was later arrested with.
Mr. BALL. Which way?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Towards Jefferson, right across that way.
Mr. DULLES. Did he have the pistol in his hand at this time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He had the gun when I saw him.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it
Mr. BALL. And what did you see the man doing?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, first off she went to screaming before I had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what I thought, was emptying the gun.
Mr. BALL. He had a gun in his hand?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see anything else as you heard her screaming?
Mrs. DAVIS. Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
Mr. BALL. And how was he holding the gun?
Mr. CALLAWAY. We used to say in the Marine Corps in a raised pistol position.
Mr. BALL. What did you see him doing?
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?
Mr. B.M. PATTERSON, 4635 Hartford Street, Dallas, Texas, currently employed by Wyatt's Cafeteria, 2647 South Lancaster, Dallas, Texas, advised he was present at the used car lot of JOHNNY REYNOLDS' on the afternoon of November 22, 1963.
PATTERSON advised that at approximately 1:30 PM, he was standing on JONNY REYNOLDS' used car lot together with L.J. LEWIS and HAROLD RUSSELL when they heard shots coming from the vicinity of 10th and Patton Avenue, Dallas, Texas. A minute or so later they observed a white male approximately 30 years of age, running south on Patton Avenue, carrying what appeared to be a revolver in his hand and was obviously trying to reload same while running.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand?
Mr.REYNOLDS. Very good.
HAROLD RUSSELL, employee, Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot, 500 Jefferson Street, Dallas, Texas, advised that on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, he was standing on the lot of Reynolds Used Cars together with L.J. LEWIS and PAT PATTERSON, at which time they heard shots come from the vicinity of Patton and Tenth Street, and a few seconds later they observed a young white man running south on Patton Avenue carrying a pistol or revolver which the individual was attempting to either reload or place in his belt line.
Mr. BELIN. Did he have anything in his hand?
Mr. SCOGGINS. He had a pistol in his left hand.
The Police Officers who were confronted with the murdering Oswald.
Mr. McDONALD - My left hand, at this point.
Mr. BALL - And had he withdrawn the pistol
Mr. McDONALD - He was drawing it as I put my hand.
Mr. BALL - From his waist?
Mr. McDONALD - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?
Mr. WALKER. He had ahold of the handle of it.
Mr. BELIN. Handle of what?
Mr. WALKER. The revolver.
Mr. BELIN. Was there a revolver there?
Mr. WALKER. Yes; there was.
Mr. HUTSON. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.
Oswald even admitted carrying his revolver.
Mr. STERN - Was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the Texas Theatre?
Mr. BOOKHOUT - Yes; that was brought up. He admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested.
Mr. McCLOY. Was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? There are two different types, you know.
Mr. HOSTY. I believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. He then told Captain Fritz that he had been living at 1026 North Beckley, that is in Dallas, Tex., at 1026 North Beckley under the name O. H. Lee and not under his true name.
Oswald admitted that he was present in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 22d of November 1963, where he had been employed since the 15th of October. Oswald told Captain Fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. It had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors.
Oswald told Captain Fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the 22d of November, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a Coca Cola from the Coca Cola machine to have with his lunch. He claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time President Kennedy passed the building.
He was asked why he left the School Book Depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. He got on a bus and went home. He went to his residence on North Beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie.
Captain Fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. He admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the Oak Cliff area of Dallas. He further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. He then denied that he had killed Officer Tippit or President Kennedy.
Mr. BALL. What did he say?
Mr. FRITZ. He told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to North Beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. I asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "Well, you know about a pistol; I just carried it." Let's see if I asked him anything else right that minute. That is just about it.
The shells recovered at the Tippit crime scene were an exclusive match to Oswald's revolver.
(https://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/53503f3db0.gif)
JohnM
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Some other things to keep in mind about the Tippit shooting:
-- When Mrs. Roberts last saw Oswald after he left the boarding house, he was standing near the street. She looked out the window a short time after Oswald left the house and saw him standing near the street, not speed-walking toward the Tippit scene.
-- Initially, the murder weapon was firmly identified as an automatic pistol, not Oswald's revolver. The person who identified the weapon as an automatic pistol was a Marine combat veteran and an experienced policeman, Sgt. Gerald Hill. Hill based his automatic-pistol identification on the shell casings. As any firearms expert can attest, it is very easy to distinguish between automatic shells and revolver shells. Additionally, in a 1986 interview, Hill said he knew the shells were .38-caliber shells because he picked one of them up and examined it. This is significant because .38 automatic shells are marked ".38 AUTO" on the bottom. Hill specifically said he looked on the bottom of the shell that he examined. It is no wonder, then, that Hill got on the radio and said, "the shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38."
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Mr. Brown,
With all due respect since you are one of the few LNs I have come to respect (not so much for your belief that Mr. Oswald is responsible for Mr. Tippett's demise as much as for your genuine passion for Justice). We have rarely agreed upon anything since my initial foray into researching this matter in May, 2014 but there's just something about you that inspires love of country and patriotism. I respect that in you sir.
Now, that said, let me remind you that Officer Hill identified the bullets that led to Mr. Tippitts' demise as coming from a semiautomatic weapon (not a revolver later planted on an innocent party).
Look no further than a bunch of lying treasonous cowards who were and are responsible for hatching a hastily contrived script to frame an innocent man. The wrongly-accused--Mr. Oswald--did Not shoot anybody. Anybody.
Last post for the Summer, best to you & yours Mr. Brown for a spectacular, happy, healthy and safe Summer sir.
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Mr. Brown,
With all due respect since you are one of the few LNs I have come to respect (not so much for your belief that Mr. Oswald is responsible for Mr. Tippett's demise as much as for your genuine passion for Justice). We have rarely agreed upon anything since my initial foray into researching this matter in May, 2014 but there's just something about you that inspires love of country and patriotism. I respect that in you sir.
Now, that said, let me remind you that Officer Hill identified the bullets that led to Mr. Tippitts' demise as coming from a semiautomatic weapon (not a revolver later planted on an innocent party).
Look no further than a bunch of lying treasonous cowards who were and are responsible for hatching a hastily contrived script to frame an innocent man. The wrongly-accused--Mr. Oswald--did Not shoot anybody. Anybody.
Last post for the Summer, best to you & yours Mr. Brown for a spectacular, happy, healthy and safe Summer sir.
Thanks Alan, I appreciate your words, that's very kind. I wish the same for you.
As for the shell casings, if they were fired from an automatic weapon...
Why were two of the shell casings found about thirty feet from the patrol car and the other two found over one hundred feet from the patrol car? Automatic shell casings would have been found right there at the patrol car where the shooter was standing as he fired off the shots.
Why did multiple eyewitnesses describe the man, as he fled, manually unloading the weapon? Automatic casings would not require being unloaded manually; they would have been automatically ejected after each shot was fired.
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Some other things to keep in mind about the Tippit shooting:
-- When Mrs. Roberts last saw Oswald after he left the boarding house, he was standing near the street. She looked out the window a short time after Oswald left the house and saw him standing near the street, not speed-walking toward the Tippit scene.
-- Initially, the murder weapon was firmly identified as an automatic pistol, not Oswald's revolver. The person who identified the weapon as an automatic pistol was a Marine combat veteran and an experienced policeman, Sgt. Gerald Hill. Hill based his automatic-pistol identification on the shell casings. As any firearms expert can attest, it is very easy to distinguish between automatic shells and revolver shells. Additionally, in a 1986 interview, Hill said he knew the shells were .38-caliber shells because he picked one of them up and examined it. This is significant because .38 automatic shells are marked ".38 AUTO" on the bottom. Hill specifically said he looked on the bottom of the shell that he examined. It is no wonder, then, that Hill got on the radio and said, "the shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38."
Standard ammo nomenclature puts the bullet caliber first followed by a description that identifies a specific cartridge. For instance, in .38 caliber, there is .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38 Smith&Wesson, .38 Special, .38 Auto, .38 Super .38 Super Comp, .38 Casull, etc.
After it's introduction circa 1900, .38 Special has been almost ubiquitous for that caliber, to the point were just saying ".38" has become almost universally understood shorthand for ".38 special."
So when Hill says "The shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic 38, rather than a pistol," it should really be read as "automatic .38 special."
Also, notice that he has to add "rather than a pistol" to indicate that the gun is a .38, but not the .38 that would be expected from his description of the shells.
One might argue that .38 special was designed for revolvers. This is true, but not the whole story. In the first decades after WW2, a number of automatic pistols were chambered in .38 special and became somewhat popular, especially among target shooters. The most famous of these is the S&W model 52.
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Gil Jesus provides a detailed explanation of the confusion surrounding the shells here:
https://gil-jesus.com/the-tippit-shells/
It is a mess.
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Gil Jesus provides a detailed explanation of the confusion surrounding the shells here:
https://gil-jesus.com/the-tippit-shells/
It is a mess.
"Gil Jesus" is a beloved-by-Putin mess.
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-- Initially, the murder weapon was firmly identified as an automatic pistol, not Oswald's revolver. The person who identified the weapon as an automatic pistol was a Marine combat veteran and an experienced policeman, Sgt. Gerald Hill. Hill based his automatic-pistol identification on the shell casings. As any firearms expert can attest, it is very easy to distinguish between automatic shells and revolver shells. Additionally, in a 1986 interview, Hill said he knew the shells were .38-caliber shells because he picked one of them up and examined it. This is significant because .38 automatic shells are marked ".38 AUTO" on the bottom. Hill specifically said he looked on the bottom of the shell that he examined. It is no wonder, then, that Hill got on the radio and said, "the shells at the scene indicate that the suspect is armed with an automatic .38."
In an Oral History interview by Wes Wise and Bob Porter on August 31, 1993, Jerry Hill said that his misidentification of the gun as an automatic was based on the fact that the shells were found there at the scene. It was a false assumption on his part. He referred to the two Benavides shells in the singular. He said that he did not look at the butt end of the shell.
https://emuseum.jfk.org/objects/4669/gerald-jerry-l-hill-oral-history
15:00
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yet, it sounds like he looked right at them:
“the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic 38 rather than a pistol.”
Thumb1: Ducks in a row; thirty years too late
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yet, it sounds like he looked right at them:
“the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic 38 rather than a pistol.”
Thumb1: Ducks in a row; thirty years too late
What he was saying is that the shells being at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic rather than a pistol. The suspect was armed with neither. He was armed with a revolver.
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What he was saying is that the shells being at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic rather than a pistol. The suspect was armed with neither. He was armed with a revolver.
:D He claimed that he saw “38” and assumed they were automatics.
A .38 special shell and a .38 automatic are clearly stamped
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:D He claimed that he saw “38” and assumed they were automatics.
A .38 special shell and a .38 automatic are clearly stamped
He never claimed that he saw "38".
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“the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic 38 rather than a pistol.”
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“the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic 38 rather than a pistol.”
Again, he never said that he saw "38". He saw the shells. They looked like they were .38s. They were not. They were .38 Specials.
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A .38 automatic casing is marked “.38 AUTO”
A .38 Special is marked “.38 SPL”
A standard .38 round is marked “.38 CAL”
These markings are unambiguous.
If Sgt. Hill had been guessing, one would expect him to assume the casings were the more commonly used .38 Specials — not the relatively rare .38 automatics. That he identified the shells as automatics from the outset seems highly questionable.
Frankly, it's hard to believe this was an honest mistake.
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A .38 automatic casing is marked “.38 AUTO”
A .38 Special is marked “.38 SPL”
A standard .38 round is marked “.38 CAL”
These markings are unambiguous.
If Sgt. Hill had been guessing, one would expect him to assume the casings were the more commonly used .38 Specials — not the relatively rare .38 automatics. That he identified the shells as automatics from the outset seems highly questionable.
Frankly, it's hard to believe this was an honest mistake.
Hill did not look at the butt end of either of the shells. He called out the gun as being a .38 automatic based on a false assumption. The shells looked like .38s. It was an honest mistake. The actual shells recovered do not lie. They are .38 Specials, non-automatic. Oswald would have had no need to manually remove shells from an automatic.
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BS: A veteran officer knows that shells have markings and would look without assuming.
“the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic 38 rather than a pistol.”
-
BS: A veteran officer knows that shells have markings and would look without assuming.
“the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic 38 rather than a pistol.”
Again, Hill never looked at the butt end of either shell. They looked like they were .38s. They were not. They were .38 Specials.
Mr. BENAVIDES - Well, I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; I sure don't.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun also?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.
Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been reloading it or something.
======================
Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis - Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
.......
Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis - We watched him unload the shells out of his gun.
=================
Representative FORD - You saw him take the shells out of the gun?
BARBARA DAVIS - No, sir; he was shaking them.
Representative FORD - He was shaking them?
BARBARA DAVIS - He was shaking them. I didn't see him actually use his hand to take them out. I mean he was sort of shaking them out.
-
Again, Hill never looked at the butt end of either shell. They looked like they were .38s. They were not. They were .38 Specials.
:D lame - Why would Hill guess at the caliber if it is written on the shell?
Add Davis sisters and Benevides to the equation and it gets worse
Mr. BENAVIDES - Well, I started--I seen him throw the shells and I started to stop and pick them up, and I thought I'd better not so when I came back, after I had gotten back, I picked up the shells.
Mr. BELIN - All right. Now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Well, did you see the man empty his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - That is what he was doing. He took one out and threw it.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun?
Mr. BENAVIDES - No; I sure don't.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun also?
Mr. BENAVIDES - Yes. As he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun.
Mr. BELIN - You saw him?
Mr. BENAVIDES - I mean, he was acting like. I didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it.
Maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been reloading it or something.
Gerald Hill | DPD
Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that
he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the
grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package.
Domingo Benavides | CBS Special
"...They were looking all over the place for evidence and everything...and taking fingerprints and what have you...
So--I guess they were gonna just walk off and leave them...not knowing they was there..
and seeing I knew where they was at I walked over and picked up a stick..and picked them up and put them in a Winston package...
I think I picked up 2 and put them in the Winston package and as I was walking back I picked the other one up by hand I believe..."
======================
Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis - Well, we saw Oswald. We didn't know it was Oswald at the time. We saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun.
.......
Mrs. Charlie Virginia Davis - We watched him unload the shells out of his gun.
=================
Representative FORD - You saw him take the shells out of the gun?
BARBARA DAVIS - No, sir; he was shaking them.
Representative FORD - He was shaking them?
BARBARA DAVIS - He was shaking them. I didn't see him actually use his hand to take them out. I mean he was sort of shaking them out.
Four shell casings were recovered from the scene of Officer Tippit's murder. According to the official report, two were found by one witness, and the remaining two by other individuals.
Sisters Virginia and Barbara Davis (also known as Jeanette) each discovered a shell casing in the bushes near the house they rented. However, this is where the chain of custody and the timeline of evidence collection become unclear.
Domingo Benavides was the closest eyewitness to the shooting and had a clear view of where the suspect discarded the shell casings. The Homicide Report, Police Report, and Official Autopsy Report all state that Officer Tippit was struck three times. Yet, four shell casings were recovered.
The first two casings, picked up by Benavides, were entered into evidence and are well-documented.
(though he claimed to have found 3)
The fourth shell was found by Virginia Davis several hours later, after the police had already left the scene. Despite multiple searches of the area earlier in the day, she and her sister Jeanette continued looking and eventually located the casing in the bushes around 5:30 p.m. They contacted the police, and Officer C.N. Dhority returned to the scene, conducted an additional search, and retrieved the shell around 7:00 p.m.
Of the four shell casings, three—identified as Q74, Q75, and Q77—have a relatively consistent and traceable chain of custody, although there are concerns regarding a brief detour made by a “sergeant in the crime scene search section” to the Texas Theater, which complicates the evidence handling process.
It is the third shell casing, designated Q76, that presents the most issues. Its chain of custody is questionable and has led to speculation that Captain Doughty (distinct from Officer Dhority) may never have actually handled it at all.
-
Gil Jesus provides a detailed explanation of the confusion surrounding the shells here:
https://gil-jesus.com/the-tippit-shells/
It is a mess.
Gil's article is just another case of him being a doof. Consider his statement: "regular 38 shells are marked “38 CAL”." There is no such thing as a "regular .38"
-
BS: A veteran officer knows that shells have markings and would look without assuming.
“the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with an automatic 38 rather than a pistol.”
Again, in common usage, just plain ".38" is assumed to be .38 Special. Just like plain ."357" is assumed to mean ".357 Magnum" and "9mm" is assumed to mean "9mm Parabellum/Luger" Hill actually is saying that the cases are .38 Special
-
Again, in common usage, just plain ".38" is assumed to be .38 Special. Just like plain ."357" is assumed to mean ".357 Magnum" and "9mm" is assumed to mean "9mm Parabellum/Luger" Hill actually is saying that the cases are .38 Special
There is no need to assume anything. The shells are clearly marked.
It was not just ".38" It was "automatic .38"
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There is no need to assume anything. The shells are clearly marked.
It was not just ".38" It was "automatic .38"
Dear Michael,
How many bad guys do you figure were involved altogether in the planning, the patsying, the shooting, the getting away, and the all important (and ongoing!!!) cover up?
Just a few, or oodles and gobs?
-- Tom
-
:D lame - Why would Hill guess at the caliber if it is written on the shell?
Add Davis sisters and Benevides to the equation and it gets worse
Gerald Hill | DPD
Mr. HILL. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that
he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the
grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package.
Domingo Benavides | CBS Special
"...They were looking all over the place for evidence and everything...and taking fingerprints and what have you...
So--I guess they were gonna just walk off and leave them...not knowing they was there..
and seeing I knew where they was at I walked over and picked up a stick..and picked them up and put them in a Winston package...
I think I picked up 2 and put them in the Winston package and as I was walking back I picked the other one up by hand I believe..."
Four shell casings were recovered from the scene of Officer Tippit's murder. According to the official report, two were found by one witness, and the remaining two by other individuals.
Sisters Virginia and Barbara Davis (also known as Jeanette) each discovered a shell casing in the bushes near the house they rented. However, this is where the chain of custody and the timeline of evidence collection become unclear.
Domingo Benavides was the closest eyewitness to the shooting and had a clear view of where the suspect discarded the shell casings. The Homicide Report, Police Report, and Official Autopsy Report all state that Officer Tippit was struck three times. Yet, four shell casings were recovered.
The first two casings, picked up by Benavides, were entered into evidence and are well-documented.
(though he claimed to have found 3)
The fourth shell was found by Virginia Davis several hours later, after the police had already left the scene. Despite multiple searches of the area earlier in the day, she and her sister Jeanette continued looking and eventually located the casing in the bushes around 5:30 p.m. They contacted the police, and Officer C.N. Dhority returned to the scene, conducted an additional search, and retrieved the shell around 7:00 p.m.
Of the four shell casings, three—identified as Q74, Q75, and Q77—have a relatively consistent and traceable chain of custody, although there are concerns regarding a brief detour made by a “sergeant in the crime scene search section” to the Texas Theater, which complicates the evidence handling process.
It is the third shell casing, designated Q76, that presents the most issues. Its chain of custody is questionable and has led to speculation that Captain Doughty (distinct from Officer Dhority) may never have actually handled it at all.
Hill had to have guessed the caliber. He never saw it written on the shell. He was wrong in his recollection that there were 3 shells in the package.
You have avoided addressing the fact that Oswald was seen removing shells from his gun. Why? If the gun was an automatic, why was he manually moving spent shells from it?
The shells found by the Davis girls have no chain of custody problems. That includes Q76. On June 18, 1964, Capt. G.M. Doughty positively identified it as the bullet that he received from Barbara Davis on Nov 22, 1963.
-
Hill had to have guessed the caliber. He never saw it written on the shell. He was wrong in his recollection that there were 3 shells in the package.
...as the story continues to evolve.
You have avoided addressing the fact that Oswald was seen removing shells from his gun. Why? If the gun was an automatic, why was he manually moving spent shells from it?
I'm not avoiding anything, and I'm not so sure all the shells were automatic.
Sam Guinyard makes it sound like he was kicking shells out with one hand along Patton
The attorney did nothing to clarify this. He said the man was 10 feet from him when he crossed Patton.
No one else saw what is described below and I'm not aware of any shells found along Patton (except by the corner)
Benevides saw exactly where the shells had landed and gathered them all. Homicide report = only 3 wounds.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he had it up just like this.
Mr. BALL. How was he kicking them out?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was rolling them with his hand--with his thumb.
Mr. BALL. Rolling them with his thumb?
Mr. GUINYARD. Checking them--he had the pistol up just like this [indicating].
Mr. BALL. Did he use his left hand any?
Mr. GUINYARD. No; I never did see him use his left hand.
Mr. BALL. He didn't?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.
The shells found by the Davis girls have no chain of custody problems. That includes Q76. On June 18, 1964, Capt. G.M. Doughty positively identified it as the bullet that he received from Barbara Davis on Nov 22, 1963.
Will address in another post.
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There is no need to assume anything. The shells are clearly marked.
It was not just ".38" It was "automatic .38"
That's right: he said "automatic .38" and not ".38 auto." ".38 auto" is a particular cartridge. "Automatic .38" is a semiautomatic weapon that fires ".38" caliber ammunition. And ".38" is generally understood to be shorthand for ".38 Special." That is "Automatic .38" refers to a semiautomatic gun that shoots .38 special. Just like I've already said.
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Guinyard claimed he was polishing a station wagon when he heard three gunshots. He said, “I raised up, trying to see where the shots were coming from.” He was looking around, and after the third shot, he saw Oswald running down Patton.
This is more than half a block away. Under oath, Guinyard testified that he saw the shooter reloading, rolling the shells with his thumb.
"No, I never saw him use his left hand"—What’s that supposed to mean? Was he dropping shells along Patton? How could he possibly see someone’s thumb at that distance?
His testimony contradicts what other witnesses said, and there's no consistency or reliability in his account—even before the lineups.
He said the man came down the east side (the side both he and the shooter were on). But Ted Callaway said the man was on the west side. Guinyard also claimed he got within 10 feet of the shooter before he crossed Patton, but the FBI measured Callaway’s position at 56 feet from the man. Callaway is ahead of Guinyard.
It’s clear he didn’t see what he said. Things no one else saw. In my opinion, he probably saw the man as he was running away. Honestly, Guinyard was likely one of the least reliable witnesses at the scene. He just went along with the narrative.
Levealle told Callaway to come down for the lineup and bring witnesses. Callaway tried to get Benavides, but he wouldn’t go. Markham had already left, and he didn’t know how to reach the cabbie.
"C'mon Sam, you’ll go with me."
-
This is a slightly tweaked rehash of Dale Myers' discredited "stop-watch" analysis of the time of the Tippit shooting. I address the time of the shooting in detail in my article "Did Oswald Shoot Tippit?":
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_j_022lJYli3B5Xyw8wLs-0nl6mDLo2t/view
I quote from part of my discussion on the issue:
This is a critical issue. Myers claims that Tippit was shot at 1:14:30, but the weight of
the evidence clearly indicates that the shooting occurred between 1:08 and 1:10, too
soon for Oswald to have walked to the scene. Moreover, two witnesses said that
Oswald entered the Texas Theater just a few minutes after 1:00 P.M., and that he
remained in the theater until he was arrested there about an hour later (Tom Lyons,
“The Ruddy Link Between the Tippit Murder and the Texas Theater,” The Fourth
Decade, July 1997, 4:5, p. 6).
26
The foundation of Myers' argument regarding when the Tippit shooting occurred is his
"stop-watch analysis" of the police tapes. Although the DPD and FBI transcripts have
Bowley calling the dispatcher at about 1:16, and even though Bowley said it was 1:10
when he first arrived to the scene, Myers says his stop-watch review of the tapes shows
Bowley did not make the call until 1:17:41 (p. 92). If Bowley did not call the police
dispatcher till 1:17:41, why did the Sheriff's Department dispatcher apparently begin to
respond to the shooting at 1:16, as the Sheriff's Office tape transcript seems to show
(17 H 372)?
Almost immediately after the 1:16 time notation, the Sheriff's dispatcher tells all units to
stay off the radio unless they have important traffic. Then, the dispatcher tries to contact
any squads in the area of "Jefferson and East 10th, 510 East Jefferson and 10th." This
is significant because this address is a combination of the address that Bowley and
dispatcher Hulse gave over the police radio. A deputy sheriff responds, and the
dispatcher tells him to remain in the area and to be on the watch for emergency
vehicles. . . .
The bulk of the evidence indicates that Tippit was shot several minutes earlier than
Myers can allow, and several minutes before Oswald could have arrived at the scene.
Myers sidesteps most of this evidence. For example, Myers fails to mention that Mrs.
Markham felt certain Tippit was shot at around 1:06 or 1:07. Bowley's watch-checked
time of 1:10 for his arrival at the scene matches well with Markham's time of 1:06-1:07
for the shooting and with Benavides' account that he waited a few minutes before he
approached the patrol car. It also corresponds with other eyewitness estimates of when
the shooting occurred.
The evidence clearly indicates that Tippit was shot very soon after he exited his car at
1:08. Tippit’s last transmission was at 1:08 and was mostly likely made to let the
dispatcher know that he was exiting his car, which was standard procedure. And, as
mentioned, Bowley arrived at the scene at 1:10. Thus, Markham’s time of 1:06 or 1:07
for the shooting is very close to the mark. Perhaps Myers did not think he could afford to
mention Mrs. Markham's comments about when the shooting occurred because he had
already noted that Markham was en route to her regular 1:12-1:15 bus when she
witnessed the Tippit slaying. Several other facts support Mrs. Markham's statements
about the time of the shooting.
Mrs. Markham said that she left her apartment building at 1:04, that it would have taken
her about 2 minutes to walk from her apartment building to the Tippit scene, that she
walked to her bus stop every day, and that she had a routine of leaving at 1:00 to catch
her bus. Myers would have us believe that Markham erred substantially, by 7 minutes,
in her recollection of when she left her apartment building, even though she noted that
as she was leaving she glanced at the clock in the laundry room of her apartment
building and that the clock read 1:04. Nonetheless, Myers argues that Mrs. Markham
was mistaken.
(the rest is snipped because it veers off topic)
1.) The 1:08 channel 1 transmission was not made by "78" (Tippit) but by "388" (a CID squad). The DPD radio transcripts in Exhibit 705 are full of errors and omissions, and aren't particularly trustworthy. Use the Shearer transcript: it's not absolutely perfect, but it is the gold standard.
2.) Bowley said his watch read 1:10PM when he stepped out of his station wagon. But, in Into The Nightmare, he conceded that his watch might have been as much as five minutes off. This would be expected in 1963. Those were the days when everyone had spring-driven mechanical watches of often-questionable reliability. So the time he left his car could be as late as 1:15 PM.
3.) Markham's time estimate for the murder is derived from the time she saw in a laundromat's clock when she set off to work. I've been in a lot of laundromats in my life, and my experiences tell me that anyone who relies on laundromat time is being completely foolish. Some will, no doubt, attempt to rely on her statement that she was trying to catch her "1:15" bus. But there was no 1:15 bus. There was a 1:12 bus and a 1:22 bus and a 1:32 bus. Maybe you're tempted to think, "well, she musta been talking about the 1:12 bus." But if she wanted to get a specific bus at a specific time, she would have known exactly what time it was scheduled to arrive. With those possibilities ruled out, all were left with is that Markham tried to get to the bus stop at whatever to her was 1:15 and took the next bus that came along. There is little reason to put any value in basing anything on Markham's time estimate.
4.) The clock used by the DPD channel dispatcher is within 1 minute of the Hertz sign on top of the TSBD, Kellerman's watch, Forrest Sorrel's watch, and Kenney O'Donnell's watch, as is discussed elsewhere on this board. And the Channel 1 and channel 2 clocks were also within 1 minute of each other, which is also discussed elsewhere on this board. BBN performed a regression analysis of the channel 1 and channel 2 time annotations and determined that the Ch.1 and Ch. 2 clocks are within a minute of each other. If channel 2 is within a minute of standard time, and channel 1 time is within a minute of channel 2 time, then channel 1 can be as much as (but no more) than 2 minutes off of standard time.
5.) Meyers put the beginning of Bowley's transmission at 1:17:41, working forward from the 1:16 time annotations on channel 1. There is a considerable about of dead air between the last 1:16 announcement and Bowley's call, so it's likely that the Dictabelt shut itself down for some amount of time during this interval. The system was designed to cease recording 4 seconds after it stopped receiving a signal. However, no such dead space exists in the minutes immediately after the end of the Bowley transmission, due to the intense response to the news of Tippit's shooting. So I worked backwards from the two 1:19 announcements and found that Bowley's transmission begins at 1:17:54 +/- 00:00:10.
If Bowley's watch is 5 minutes slow, which he concedes was possible, and Channel 1 is running 2 minutes fast, also possible, then there is no real discrepancy between the two. With the "1:08 Tippit broadcast" being a mirage and Markham's "1:06 or 1:07" time being an estimate based on a clock of dubious accuracy made by a woman who is routinely derided as some sort of dingbat, the remaining evidence actually does put the Bowley transmission no earlier than late in 1:15 PM.
-
1.) The 1:08 channel 1 transmission was not made by "78" (Tippit) but by "388" (a CID squad). The DPD radio transcripts in Exhibit 705 are full of errors and omissions, and aren't particularly trustworthy. Use the Shearer transcript: it's not absolutely perfect, but it is the gold standard.
2.) Bowley said his watch read 1:10PM when he stepped out of his station wagon. But, in Into The Nightmare, he conceded that his watch might have been as much as five minutes off. This would be expected in 1963. Those were the days when everyone had spring-driven mechanical watches of often-questionable reliability. So the time he left his car could be as late as 1:15 PM.
3.) Markham's time estimate for the murder is derived from the time she saw in a laundromat's clock when she set off to work. I've been in a lot of laundromats in my life, and my experiences tell me that anyone who relies on laundromat time is being completely foolish. Some will, no doubt, attempt to rely on her statement that she was trying to catch her "1:15" bus. But there was no 1:15 bus. There was a 1:12 bus and a 1:22 bus and a 1:32 bus. Maybe you're tempted to think, "well, she musta been talking about the 1:12 bus." But if she wanted to get a specific bus at a specific time, she would have known exactly what time it was scheduled to arrive. With those possibilities ruled out, all were left with is that Markham tried to get to the bus stop at whatever to her was 1:15 and took the next bus that came along. There is little reason to put any value in basing anything on Markham's time estimate.
4.) The clock used by the DPD channel dispatcher is within 1 minute of the Hertz sign on top of the TSBD, Kellerman's watch, Forrest Sorrel's watch, and Kenney O'Donnell's watch, as is discussed elsewhere on this board. And the Channel 1 and channel 2 clocks were also within 1 minute of each other, which is also discussed elsewhere on this board. BBN performed a regression analysis of the channel 1 and channel 2 time annotations and determined that the Ch.1 and Ch. 2 clocks are within a minute of each other. If channel 2 is within a minute of standard time, and channel 1 time is within a minute of channel 2 time, then channel 1 can be as much as (but no more) than 2 minutes off of standard time.
5.) Meyers put the beginning of Bowley's transmission at 1:17:41, working forward from the 1:16 time annotations on channel 1. There is a considerable about of dead air between the last 1:16 announcement and Bowley's call, so it's likely that the Dictabelt shut itself down for some amount of time during this interval. The system was designed to cease recording 4 seconds after it stopped receiving a signal. However, no such dead space exists in the minutes immediately after the end of the Bowley transmission, due to the intense response to the news of Tippit's shooting. So I worked backwards from the two 1:19 announcements and found that Bowley's transmission begins at 1:17:54 +/- 00:00:10.
If Bowley's watch is 5 minutes slow, which he concedes was possible, and Channel 1 is running 2 minutes fast, also possible, then there is no real discrepancy between the two. With the "1:08 Tippit broadcast" being a mirage and Markham's "1:06 or 1:07" time being an estimate based on a clock of dubious accuracy made by a woman who is routinely derided as some sort of dingbat, the remaining evidence actually does put the Bowley transmission no earlier than late in 1:15 PM.
According to the Hertz clock, the time of the assassination was 12:30. Immediately after Channel 2 dispatcher calls out the time of 12:30 p.m, Chief Curry calls out over the radio:
"Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by. Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there. Have Parkland stand by."
On that same channel we get the following callout from the Dispatcher:
"General Broadcast - All squads, we have a report that an officer has been involved in a shooting in the 400 E. 10th. 1:18 p.m."
It appears that the clocks of Channel 1 and Channel 2 were synchronized with each other. Or damn near anyway. Advisory not to use Industrial Boulevard was made by dispatchers of both channels at 12:36. Both Channels called out the description of the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston at 12:45. Those were voice time callouts. Just after a 1:19 voice time callout on Channel 1, (19)Sgt C.B. Owens asks for the correct address of the shooting. Dispatch 1 responds with "501 East Tenth". From Channel 2 Dispatch, we get "Go ahead, 19. Are you en route? Yes. It's in the 400 or 500 block of E. 10th, I believe." That's after their own 1:19 voice time callout.
So, the call to Channel 1 Dispatcher made by T.F. Bowley over Tippit's car radio really was made at about 1:17 p.m.
-
According to the Hertz clock, the time of the assassination was 12:30. Immediately after Channel 2 dispatcher calls out the time of 12:30 p.m, Chief Curry calls out over the radio:
"Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by. Get a man on top of that triple underpass and see what happened up there. Have Parkland stand by."
On that same channel we get the following callout from the Dispatcher:
"General Broadcast - All squads, we have a report that an officer has been involved in a shooting in the 400 E. 10th. 1:18 p.m."
It appears that the clocks of Channel 1 and Channel 2 were synchronized with each other. Or damn near anyway. Advisory not to use Industrial Boulevard was made by dispatchers of both channels at 12:36. Both Channels called out the description of the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston at 12:45. Those were voice time callouts. Just after a 1:19 voice time callout on Channel 1, (19)Sgt C.B. Owens asks for the correct address of the shooting. Dispatch 1 responds with "501 East Tenth". From Channel 2 Dispatch, we get "Go ahead, 19. Are you en route? Yes. It's in the 400 or 500 block of E. 10th, I believe." That's after their own 1:19 voice time callout.
So, the call to Channel 1 Dispatcher made by T.F. Bowley over Tippit's car radio really was made at about 1:17 p.m.
I'd forgotten about the Channel 2 general broadcast. Thank you for bringing that up!
-
Guinyard claimed he was polishing a station wagon when he heard three gunshots. He said, “I raised up, trying to see where the shots were coming from.” He was looking around, and after the third shot, he saw Oswald running down Patton.
This is more than half a block away. Under oath, Guinyard testified that he saw the shooter reloading, rolling the shells with his thumb.
"No, I never saw him use his left hand"—What’s that supposed to mean? Was he dropping shells along Patton? How could he possibly see someone’s thumb at that distance?
His testimony contradicts what other witnesses said, and there's no consistency or reliability in his account—even before the lineups.
He said the man came down the east side (the side both he and the shooter were on). But Ted Callaway said the man was on the west side. Guinyard also claimed he got within 10 feet of the shooter before he crossed Patton, but the FBI measured Callaway’s position at 56 feet from the man. Callaway is ahead of Guinyard.
It’s clear he didn’t see what he said. Things no one else saw. In my opinion, he probably saw the man as he was running away. Honestly, Guinyard was likely one of the least reliable witnesses at the scene. He just went along with the narrative.
Levealle told Callaway to come down for the lineup and bring witnesses. Callaway tried to get Benavides, but he wouldn’t go. Markham had already left, and he didn’t know how to reach the cabbie.
"C'mon Sam, you’ll go with me."
His testimony contradicts what other witnesses said, and there's no consistency or reliability in his account—even before the lineups. He said the man came down the east side (the side both he and the shooter were on). But Ted Callaway said the man was on the west side. Guinyard also claimed he got within 10 feet of the shooter before he crossed Patton, but the FBI measured Callaway’s position at 56 feet from the man. Callaway is ahead of Guinyard.
No. Just No.
Callaway was NOT "ahead" of Guinyard.
Oswald, running south on Patton, would encounter Guinyard well before Callaway. Guinyard was halfway down the block, at the alley. Callaway was three-fourths down the block, closer to Jefferson.
I find it laughable that you criticize like you do and you don't know the location of two very important witnesses. The locations of both Guinyard and Callaway is Tippit 101.
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No. Just No.
Callaway was NOT "ahead" of Guinyard.
Oswald, running south on Patton, would encounter Guinyard well before Callaway. Guinyard was halfway down the block, at the alley. Callaway was three-fourths down the block, closer to Jefferson.
I find it laughable that you criticize like you do and you don't know the location of two very important witnesses. The locations of both Guinyard and Callaway is Tippit 101.
BS:
Not very reliable, if he cannot corroborate your version of Callaway. Is he?
Mr. BALL. What side of the street did you see him coming down on?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was on the left side--when he come down--it would be the east side.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Callaway there?
Mr. GUINYARD. We was together; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were together?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back.
Mr. BALL. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I find it laughable how you insult others, then go on to make baseless declarations.
Yes, Guinyard is at the back of the lot and TC is south at the office.
It doesn't mean SG saw or heard any more than Ted - He heard 3 shots - Benavides heard 3 shots and picked up (what he called) all the shells.
As soon as the shots go off TC immediately runs toward tenth st. but he goes no farther than the alley.
Guinyard was ten feet from Patton - He said he could see the corner without moving. I don't believe him.
Look at the map - there is an outbuilding/garage in his way - he would've had to move to Patton to see up to the corner.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48580593201_076d86f41f_b.jpg
The problem - Guinyard describes the discharging of shells along Patton and that would be up at the corner
He didn't go that far north to see it. - He said he and TC were in the ally and Ted was in front of him.
He was on Patton at the alley - TC was just south of that - by then the killer was further south on his way to Jefferson.
The Commission made little to no effort to verify his account. There’s no indication on exhibit maps or
street-level photographs to support his perspective or location—unlike what was done with Callaway, Scoggins, Markham
It seems they didn’t place much weight or significance on his testimony. - He saw the killer run away. That's it.
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BS:
Not very reliable, if he cannot corroborate your version of Callaway. Is he?
Mr. BALL. What side of the street did you see him coming down on?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was on the left side--when he come down--it would be the east side.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Callaway there?
Mr. GUINYARD. We was together; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were together?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back.
Mr. BALL. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I find it laughable how you insult others, then go on to make baseless declarations.
Yes, Guinyard is at the back of the lot and TC is south at the office.
It doesn't mean SG saw or heard any more than Ted - He heard 3 shots - Benavides heard 3 shots and picked up (what he called) all the shells.
As soon as the shots go off TC immediately runs toward tenth st. but he goes no farther than the alley.
Guinyard was ten feet from Patton - He said he could see the corner without moving. I don't believe him.
Look at the map - there is an outbuilding/garage in his way - he would've had to move to Patton to see up to the corner.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48580593201_076d86f41f_b.jpg
The problem - Guinyard describes the discharging of shells along Patton and that would be up at the corner
He didn't go that far north to see it. - He said he and TC were in the ally and Ted was in front of him.
He was on Patton at the alley - TC was just south of that - by then the killer was further south on his way to Jefferson.
The Commission made little to no effort to verify his account. There’s no indication on exhibit maps or
street-level photographs to support his perspective or location—unlike what was done with Callaway, Scoggins, Markham
It seems they didn’t place much weight or significance on his testimony. - He saw the killer run away. That's it.
How does any of your above drivel correct your error that "Callaway is ahead of Guinyard"?
The two men were standing 50 feet from each other and Oswald, going south on Patton, would encounter Guinyard first.
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How does any of your above drivel correct your error that "Callaway is ahead of Guinyard"?
The two men were standing 50 feet from each other and Oswald, going south on Patton, would encounter Guinyard first.
:D Once again, you're resorting to insults and unfounded claims.
What is your source for this supposed 50-foot difference? - time of shots? Then they both moved.
Guinyard said he never went farther north than the alleyway. TC was then in front of him.
How does SG see shells dropped along Patton? No one else did.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Callaway there?
Mr. GUINYARD. We was together; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were together?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back.
Mr. BALL. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes
I'm trying to figure out how Guinyard could see shells dropped along Patton. He went no further than the ally way.
I'm not sure you even know what it is you're arguing.
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:D Once again, you're resorting to insults and unfounded claims.
What is your source for this supposed 50-foot difference? - time of shots? Then they both moved.
Guinyard said he never went farther north than the alleyway. TC was then in front of him.
How does SG see shells dropped along Patton? No one else did.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Callaway there?
Mr. GUINYARD. We was together; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were together?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back.
Mr. BALL. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes
I'm trying to figure out how Guinyard could see shells dropped along Patton. He went no further than the ally way.
I'm not sure you even know what it is you're arguing.
Again, Callaway was (roughly) 50 feet closer to Jefferson than was Guinyard, who was at the alley.
And no one said anything about Guinyard finding any shells.
Learn the case.
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The two-story brown brick building seen in the background (where the two kids are playing out front) is at the alley and Patton. Callaway was (roughly) fifty feet south of that building, i.e. Callaway is (roughly) fifty feet south of the alley.
Capasse... Learn the case or shut the f*** up. When you're running your mouth, you're not listening.
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Again, Callaway was (roughly) 50 feet closer to Jefferson than was Guinyard, who was at the alley.
Now you're just arguing with yourself. Good luck with that.
Meanwhile, either you have evidence Guinyard went north of the ally or you don't.
And no one said anything about Guinyard finding any shells.
Who did say that?
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BS:
Not very reliable, if he cannot corroborate your version of Callaway. Is he?
Mr. BALL. What side of the street did you see him coming down on?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was on the left side--when he come down--it would be the east side.
Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Callaway there?
Mr. GUINYARD. We was together; yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were together?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back.
Mr. BALL. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I find it laughable how you insult others, then go on to make baseless declarations.
Yes, Guinyard is at the back of the lot and TC is south at the office.
It doesn't mean SG saw or heard any more than Ted - He heard 3 shots - Benavides heard 3 shots and picked up (what he called) all the shells.
As soon as the shots go off TC immediately runs toward tenth st. but he goes no farther than the alley.
Guinyard was ten feet from Patton - He said he could see the corner without moving. I don't believe him.
Look at the map - there is an outbuilding/garage in his way - he would've had to move to Patton to see up to the corner.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48580593201_076d86f41f_b.jpg
The problem - Guinyard describes the discharging of shells along Patton and that would be up at the corner
He didn't go that far north to see it. - He said he and TC were in the ally and Ted was in front of him.
He was on Patton at the alley - TC was just south of that - by then the killer was further south on his way to Jefferson.
The Commission made little to no effort to verify his account. There’s no indication on exhibit maps or
street-level photographs to support his perspective or location—unlike what was done with Callaway, Scoggins, Markham
It seems they didn’t place much weight or significance on his testimony. - He saw the killer run away. That's it.
Mr. BALL. You were together?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back.
Yes.
The Dootch Motor Co. (Harris Brothers) lot faced Jefferson. The back of the lot was up against the alley. So yes, Callaway was at the front (closer to Jefferson) and Guinyard was at the back (the alley).
The problem - Guinyard describes the discharging of shells along Patton and that would be up at the corner
He didn't go that far north to see it.
Guinyard, standing on the sidewalk, would easily see Oswald throw down shell casings. Maybe your problem is that you're unaware of where two of the shell casings were found.
Like I said, learn the case.
Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis each found a shell casing. Both shells were located on the side of the house they lived in; the side facing Patton, not Tenth. Guinyard, standing on the sidewalk on Patton, sees Oswald throw down a couple shell casings once he (Oswald) turned the corner from Tenth onto Patton.
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Yes.
The Dootch Motor Co. (Harris Brothers) lot faced Jefferson. The back of the lot was up against the alley. So yes, Callaway was at the front (closer to Jefferson) and Guinyard was at the back (the alley).
Guinyard, standing on the sidewalk, would easily see Oswald throw down shell casings. Maybe your problem is that you're unaware of where two of the shell casings were found.
Like I said, learn the case.
Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis each found a shell casing. Both shells were located on the side of the house they lived in; the side facing Patton, not Tenth. Guinyard, standing on the sidewalk on Patton, sees Oswald throw down a couple shell casings once he (Oswald) turned the corner from Tenth onto Patton.
::) Oh, please...Get out of your own way.
I'm talking about this "...rolling them with his hand.." SG would not be able to see from that distance.
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he had it up just like this.
Mr. BALL. How was he kicking them out?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was rolling them with his hand--with his thumb.
Mr. BALL. Rolling them with his thumb?
Mr. GUINYARD. Checking them--he had the pistol up just like this [indicating].
Mr. BALL. Did he use his left hand any?
Mr. GUINYARD. No; I never did see him use his left hand.
Mr. BALL. He didn't?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.
:D Once again, you make some other argument and have it out with yourself.
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::) Oh, please...Get out of your own way.
I'm talking about this "...rolling them with his hand.." SG would not be able to see from that distance.
Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he had it up just like this.
Mr. BALL. How was he kicking them out?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was rolling them with his hand--with his thumb.
Mr. BALL. Rolling them with his thumb?
Mr. GUINYARD. Checking them--he had the pistol up just like this [indicating].
Mr. BALL. Did he use his left hand any?
Mr. GUINYARD. No; I never did see him use his left hand.
Mr. BALL. He didn't?
Mr. GUINYARD. No, sir.
:D Once again, you make some other argument and have it out with yourself.
You claim what Guinyard could and could not see, even though he is telling you what he saw. You're a fool.
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You're a fool.
I know resorting to name calling only weakens an argument and undermines credibility. Still a weapon of choice, absent adequate proof.
You claim what Guinyard could and could not see, even though he is telling you what he saw.
I simply don't believe him. I don't think Joseph Ball did either.
The Commission didn’t place much significance on "his shells" or his location. Otherwise, we would have a clear image or map, similar to Callaway.
Only SG is quoted, “...rolling them with his hand--with his thumb." I question his ability to see it that distance. Nothing supports this account.
Even the attorney reacts in a very ho-hum manner, without basic pursuit of; How many did he see? When did he reload? Where exactly along Patton?.
If as you incorrectly suggest, SG had seen the killer simply “throw down shell casings...”, why didn't he point them out to Benevides while
he was following him around and DB was collecting the shells? - Why not confirm the number DB found from SG? Why not ask exactly where?
Dom was clear, he knew precisely where the casings landed and went straight to them. He told CBS, he found three. Gerald Hill testified, "...3 spent jackets..."
Guinyard on the other hand, said Dom picked up all the empty hulls from the gun. Benevides as stated, "I knew where they was at..."
So, when did SG inform DB of what HE supposedly saw as he followed Dom around? At the very least, these two should corroborate count. Ball never asked.
In addition to the number of shots, type of hull vs. bullet, shells "found" later, along with the count of each, has presented a significant mess since 1963.
Sam Guinyard saw the killer fleeing the scene, and there’s no credible reason to believe he saw anything else.
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Tippit was possibly killed to silence him... he knew too much...
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Mr. GUINYARD. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr. BALL. With which hand?
Mr. GUINYARD. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr. BALL. He had it up?
Mr. GUINYARD. Yes; he had it up just like this.
Mr. BALL. How was he kicking them out?
Mr. GUINYARD. He was rolling them with his hand--with his thumb.
Mr. BALL. Rolling them with his thumb?
Mr. GUINYARD. Checking them--he had the pistol up just like this [indicating].
What was that even supposed to mean, I wonder? With a revolver, you simply open the cylinder, push the ejector rod, and all the shells pop out at once. The whole operation takes 2-3 seconds. What was "rolling them with his thumb" supposed to mean?
You would only empty the revolver if you were going to reload it - but right there, on the run?
The revolver held six shells and was fully loaded when Oswald was arrested, at least according to the WC. Was it not fully loaded before he shot Tippit? If it was, he would still have had two live rounds and seemingly little need to eject empties on the run.
The WC noted that, if one merely wants to eject empties, he can simply swing out the cylinder and the live rounds will fall into his hand, whereupon the empties can be ejected with the ejector rod - but again, what sense would this make for someone fleeing a murder scene?
I admittedly lack a Ph.D. in Tippit Studies, but it does all seem a bit mysterious.
(https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/RF-0513-2.jpg)
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What was that even supposed to mean, I wonder? With a revolver, you simply open the cylinder, push the ejector rod, and all the shells pop out at once. The whole operation takes 2-3 seconds. What was "rolling them with his thumb" supposed to mean?
You would only empty the revolver if you were going to reload it - but right there, on the run?
The revolver held six shells and was fully loaded when Oswald was arrested, at least according to the WC. Was it not fully loaded before he shot Tippit? If it was, he would still have had two live rounds and seemingly little need to eject empties on the run.
The WC noted that, if one merely wants to eject empties, he can simply swing out the cylinder and the live rounds will fall into his hand, whereupon the empties can be ejected with the ejector rod - but again, what sense would this make for someone fleeing a murder scene?
I admittedly lack a Ph.D. in Tippit Studies, but it does all seem a bit mysterious.
(https://gunsmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/RF-0513-2.jpg)
Oswald was unable to remove the shells from the revolver by using the ejector rod. At least one of the shells had expanded and split, making the ejector unusable in removing the shells. FBI Firearms Lab Specialist Cortlandt Cunningham experienced the same problem with the revolver.
Mr. EISENBERG. We are going-to get into that. This is a difficult question which you are going to have to make a decision on. So I would rather develop that slowly.
I notice that one of the cartridge cases in Exhibit 595 is split on the side, Mr. Cunningham.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is due to the oversized chambers of this revolver. As I previously testified, the weapon was originally chambered for the .38 S&W, which is a wider cartridge than .38 Special. And when a .38 Special is fired in this particular weapon, the case form fits to the shape of each chamber. And in one of those cartridges, the metal just let go. Normally it does not; however this one particular case split slightly.
Representative FORD. Does that have any impact on the rest of the operation?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. As a matter of fact, I test-fired the weapon originally, and I didn't even know it had split until I tried to eject it.
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Oswald was unable to remove the shells from the revolver by using the ejector rod. At least one of the shells had expanded and split, making the ejector unusable in removing the shells. FBI Firearms Lab Specialist Cortlandt Cunningham experienced the same problem with the revolver.
Mr. EISENBERG. We are going-to get into that. This is a difficult question which you are going to have to make a decision on. So I would rather develop that slowly.
I notice that one of the cartridge cases in Exhibit 595 is split on the side, Mr. Cunningham.
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. EISENBERG. Why is that?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is due to the oversized chambers of this revolver. As I previously testified, the weapon was originally chambered for the .38 S&W, which is a wider cartridge than .38 Special. And when a .38 Special is fired in this particular weapon, the case form fits to the shape of each chamber. And in one of those cartridges, the metal just let go. Normally it does not; however this one particular case split slightly.
Representative FORD. Does that have any impact on the rest of the operation?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir. As a matter of fact, I test-fired the weapon originally, and I didn't even know it had split until I tried to eject it.
That would help to explain why LHO apparently fumbled around while unloading the revolver and scattered the empty shells as he departed the murder scene. I already knew about the different calibers but had not seen this splitting case issue before. Thanks, I learned something new today!
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That would help to explain why LHO apparently fumbled around while unloading the revolver and scattered the empty shells as he departed the murder scene. I already knew about the different calibers but had not seen this splitting case issue before. Thanks, I learned something new today!
:D ...not what Guinyard claimed to see.
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:D ...not what Guinyard claimed to see.
In reviewing the "split case" issue on several gun forums, it does appear that splitting occurs when the chamber is too large for the shell, as was apparently the situation with Oswald's revolver. One guy specifically mentioned an inability to eject the shells. However, he indicated a single split case prevented the ejector rod from working at all. So, we would have to picture Oswald, on the run, opening the cylinder, attempting to use the ejector rod, realizing it didn't work, and shaking the shells into his hand or prying them out with his fingers. All of which sounds a bit unlikely on the run, seconds after the murder. Unless the gun wasn't fully loaded when he shot Tippit, he would still have had two live rounds and it's difficult to picture why he would have been desperate to fiddle with the gun.
Trying to picture what Oswald actually did, and why, is one of my favorite sleep-inducing exercises. Sort of like counting sheep.
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In reviewing the "split case" issue on several gun forums, it does appear that splitting occurs when the chamber is too large for the shell, as was apparently the situation with Oswald's revolver. One guy specifically mentioned an inability to eject the shells. However, he indicated a single split case prevented the ejector rod from working at all. So, we would have to picture Oswald, on the run, opening the cylinder, attempting to use the ejector rod, realizing it didn't work, and shaking the shells into his hand or prying them out with his fingers. All of which sounds a bit unlikely on the run, seconds after the murder. Unless the gun wasn't fully loaded when he shot Tippit, he would still have had two live rounds and it's difficult to picture why he would have been desperate to fiddle with the gun.
Trying to picture what Oswald actually did, and why, is one of my favorite sleep-inducing exercises. Sort of like counting sheep.
except no one else saw that and the killer was already on Patton
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Hmmmm ... The exhaustive report of the HSCA Firearms Panel, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/hscv7g.htm#tippit, discusses all cartridge issues. The panel carefully noted that one of the cartridges test-fired by the FBI split, as did one of those test-fired by the panel. See the discussion at paragraph 197 of the report. The reasons given are consistent with what has been stated above. HOWEVER, in its discussion of the four shells found at the Tippit scene, NO splitting is noted - as would surely have been the case if splitting had occurred. The gun was fully loaded when Oswald was arrested, so there wasn't a split casing from the Tippit murder still stuck in the cylinder. Make of this what you will, but it seems a bit of a conundrum.
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In reviewing the "split case" issue on several gun forums, it does appear that splitting occurs when the chamber is too large for the shell, as was apparently the situation with Oswald's revolver. One guy specifically mentioned an inability to eject the shells. However, he indicated a single split case prevented the ejector rod from working at all. So, we would have to picture Oswald, on the run, opening the cylinder, attempting to use the ejector rod, realizing it didn't work, and shaking the shells into his hand or prying them out with his fingers. All of which sounds a bit unlikely on the run, seconds after the murder. Unless the gun wasn't fully loaded when he shot Tippit, he would still have had two live rounds and it's difficult to picture why he would have been desperate to fiddle with the gun.
Trying to picture what Oswald actually did, and why, is one of my favorite sleep-inducing exercises. Sort of like counting sheep.
Unless the gun wasn't fully loaded when he shot Tippit, he would still have had two live rounds and it's difficult to picture why he would have been desperate to fiddle with the gun.
While you might consider two rounds as adequate for the situation, LHO (due to his military training) most likely did not. I think he would have wanted a fully loaded revolver in this situation. His military training could have also been a factor in this.
I will never forget the time some idiot crashed the gates at Lackland AFB. He and his passengers were promptly treated to a Bonnie & Clyde style shooting. They cornered them in our squadron area. (Shoot first and ask questions later in that situation.) Military are trained to be ready. Having a fully loaded weapon in LHO’s situation would have been pretty much an automatic, second nature type of thing in my opinion.
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Hmmmm ... The exhaustive report of the HSCA Firearms Panel, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/hscv7g.htm#tippit, discusses all cartridge issues. The panel carefully noted that one of the cartridges test-fired by the FBI split, as did one of those test-fired by the panel. See the discussion at paragraph 197 of the report. The reasons given are consistent with what has been stated above. HOWEVER, in its discussion of the four shells found at the Tippit scene, NO splitting is noted - as would surely have been the case if splitting had occurred. The gun was fully loaded when Oswald was arrested, so there wasn't a split casing from the Tippit murder still stuck in the cylinder. Make of this what you will, but it seems a bit of a conundrum.
At least one witness said he heard five shots, Callaway if I remember correctly. I think that LHO must have eventually managed to pry the split case out and replaced it. This might have happened anytime and anywhere between the Tippit shooting and his arrest. Just because the split case wasn’t found and recovered doesn’t necessarily mean it didn’t happen.
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Hmmmm ... The exhaustive report of the HSCA Firearms Panel, https://www.jfk-assassination.net/russ/jfkinfo/hscv7g.htm#tippit, discusses all cartridge issues. The panel carefully noted that one of the cartridges test-fired by the FBI split, as did one of those test-fired by the panel. See the discussion at paragraph 197 of the report. The reasons given are consistent with what has been stated above. HOWEVER, in its discussion of the four shells found at the Tippit scene, NO splitting is noted - as would surely have been the case if splitting had occurred. The gun was fully loaded when Oswald was arrested, so there wasn't a split casing from the Tippit murder still stuck in the cylinder. Make of this what you will, but it seems a bit of a conundrum.
In the 5 shots/1 miss scenario, Oswald was unable to remove the split shell at the scene and carried it away, removing it after it had cooled down.
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At least one witness said he heard five shots, Callaway if I remember correctly. I think that LHO must have eventually managed to pry the split case out and replaced it. This might have happened anytime and anywhere between the Tippit shooting and his arrest. Just because the split case wasn’t found and recovered doesn’t necessarily mean it didn’t happen.
Thumb1:
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At least one witness said he heard five shots, Callaway if I remember correctly. I think that LHO must have eventually managed to pry the split case out and replaced it. This might have happened anytime and anywhere between the Tippit shooting and his arrest. Just because the split case wasn’t found and recovered doesn’t necessarily mean it didn’t happen.
Yes, the five-shot thing had occurred to me as well. I'm not arguing in favor of the CT position by any means, but the entire scenario does have a certain implausibility, with Oswald fumbling to reload his gun as he runs away as though he were prepared to shoot anyone who got in his way, brave used car salesman Callaway confronting him with "What the hell is going on?", Oswald shrugging like a hapless goof instead of pointing the gun at Callaway, and Guinyard noticing an amazing level of detail when one might have expected a lowly lot porter to dive under the nearest $500 Chevy. It may be what occurred, but it does seem somewhat implausible. The "one witness who heard five shots was correct" and "the fifth shot was the split casing that was never found" does sound a bit like the sort of convenient ad hoc speculation in which CTers specialize.
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Yes, the five-shot thing had occurred to me as well. I'm not arguing in favor of the CT position by any means, but the entire scenario does have a certain implausibility, with Oswald fumbling to reload his gun as he runs away as though he were prepared to shoot anyone who got in his way, brave used car salesman Callaway confronting him with "What the hell is going on?", Oswald shrugging like a hapless goof instead of pointing the gun at Callaway, and Guinyard noticing an amazing level of detail when one might have expected a lowly lot porter to dive under the nearest $500 Chevy. It may be what occurred, but it does seem somewhat implausible. The "one witness who heard five shots was correct" and "the fifth shot was the split casing that was never found" does sound a bit like the sort of convenient ad hoc speculation in which CTers specialize.
Warren Reynolds heard four, five or six shots. William A. Smith heard four or five shots. Jimmy Burt heard a total of six shots. And a Johnny-come-lately named Frank Griffin heard five shots.
The five shots, with one of them missing, is speculation, that's true. But it's not without some foundation. It explains the mismatch of the shells found at the scene with the bullets removed from Tippit.
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Warren Reynolds heard four, five or six shots. William A. Smith heard four or five shots. Jimmy Burt heard a total of six shots. And a Johnny-come-lately named Frank Griffin heard five shots.
The five shots, with one of them missing, is speculation, that's true. But it's not without some foundation. It explains the mismatch of the shells found at the scene with the bullets removed from Tippit.
Oswald completely missed Tippit from 5 feet away and the bullet didn't hit a car, house or tree? Scroggins heard 3 or 4 shots, Markham heard 3, and good old Guinyard heard 3! It's not entirely clear to me what the Callaway-Guinyard debate between Bill and Michael was all about, but it does seem to me that the recollections of Callaway and Guinyard are hard to reconcile and that attorney Ball did a pretty poor job of questioning. If Michael's point was simply that Guinyard probably didn't really see what he told the WC he saw, I think I'd probably agree - but without agreeing that this is of any great significance in the context of the virtual certainty that Oswald did in fact kill Tippit and flee the scene. I just enjoy little thought experiments as to what Oswald was actually doing and why at every stage of November 20-22. Even assuming Oswald murdered Tippit, as I do, the events are hard to reconcile with the preternaturally cool Oswald encountered by Truly and Baker and interrogated by Fritz.
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Oswald completely missed Tippit from 5 feet away and the bullet didn't hit a car, house or tree? Scroggins heard 3 or 4 shots, Markham heard 3, and good old Guinyard heard 3! It's not entirely clear to me what the Callaway-Guinyard debate between Bill and Michael was all about, but it does seem to me that the recollections of Callaway and Guinyard are hard to reconcile and that attorney Ball did a pretty poor job of questioning. If Michael's point was simply that Guinyard probably didn't really see what he told the WC he saw, I think I'd probably agree - but without agreeing that this is of any great significance in the context of the virtual certainty that Oswald did in fact kill Tippit and flee the scene. I just enjoy little thought experiments as to what Oswald was actually doing and why at every stage of November 20-22. Even assuming Oswald murdered Tippit, as I do, the events are hard to reconcile with the preternaturally cool Oswald encountered by Truly and Baker and interrogated by Fritz.
I'm thinking that Oswald missed Tippit from 10 feet or so away. I don't believe that the bullet hit a car. It may have hit a house or tree though. Surely, it hit something. Bill and Michael are disagreeing on a number of points. Bill is a BigDog on the Tippit case. So, I'm wary of doubting what he says on it. I don't see the importance in reconciling the recollections of Callaway and Guinyard. I think that Callaway was more reliable in his recollections though.
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Bill is a BigDog on the Tippit case. So, I'm wary of doubting what he says on it.
I'm thinking that Oswald missed Tippit from 10 feet or so away. I don't believe that the bullet hit a car. It may have hit a house or tree though. Surely, it hit something.
:D movement toward an ad-hoc excuse.
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Oswald completely missed Tippit from 5 feet away and the bullet didn't hit a car, house or tree? Scroggins heard 3 or 4 shots, Markham heard 3, and good old Guinyard heard 3! It's not entirely clear to me what the Callaway-Guinyard debate between Bill and Michael was all about, but it does seem to me that the recollections of Callaway and Guinyard are hard to reconcile and that attorney Ball did a pretty poor job of questioning. If Michael's point was simply that Guinyard probably didn't really see what he told the WC he saw, I think I'd probably agree - but without agreeing that this is of any great significance in the context of the virtual certainty that Oswald did in fact kill Tippit and flee the scene. I just enjoy little thought experiments as to what Oswald was actually doing and why at every stage of November 20-22. Even assuming Oswald murdered Tippit, as I do, the events are hard to reconcile with the preternaturally cool Oswald encountered by Truly and Baker and interrogated by Fritz.
It's not entirely clear to me what the Callaway-Guinyard debate between Bill and Michael was all about, but it does seem to me that the recollections of Callaway and Guinyard are hard to reconcile...
In discussing the locations of Callaway and Guinyard, Capasse stated that "Callaway was ahead of Guinyard", meaning Oswald, as he was making his way south on Patton, would come upon Callaway before Guinyard.
Capasse was wrong, though.
Guinyard was standing on the sidewalk, where the alley began. This (obviously) is halfway down the block on Patton, as one is making his way from Tenth to Jefferson.
Callaway was standing out on the sidewalk about three-fourths down the block, as one is making his way down Patton from Tenth to Jefferson.
In other words, Both men were standing out on the sidewalk on the east side of Patton and Guinyard was closer to Tenth while Callaway was further down, closer to Jefferson.
Capasse, trying to make a point about these two men and what each could (or could not) see, has the positions of the two wrong. His point (like almost always) is invalid.
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In discussing the locations of Callaway and Guinyard, Capasse stated that "Callaway was ahead of Guinyard", meaning Oswald, as he was making his way south on Patton, would come upon Callaway before Guinyard.
Capasse was wrong, though.
Guinyard was standing on the sidewalk, where the alley began. This (obviously) is halfway down the block on Patton, as one is making his way from Tenth to Jefferson.
Callaway was standing out on the sidewalk about three-fourths down the block, as one is making his way down Patton from Tenth to Jefferson.
In other words, Both men were standing out on the sidewalk on the east side of Patton and Guinyard was closer to Tenth while Callaway was further down, closer to Jefferson.
Capasse, trying to make a point about these two men and what each could (or could not) see, has the positions of the two wrong. His point (like almost always) is invalid.
Once again, Brown is conflating some argument that doesn't exist.
His arrogance overshadows any point he fails to make.
So yes, Callaway was at the front (closer to Jefferson) and Guinyard was at the back (the alley).
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(https://i.imgur.com/CHJvG7Zs.jpg)
His testimony contradicts what other witnesses said, and there's no consistency or reliability in his account—even before the lineups.
He said the man came down the east side (the side both he and the shooter were on). But Ted Callaway said the man was on the west side. Guinyard also claimed he got within 10 feet of the shooter before he crossed Patton, but the FBI measured Callaway’s position at 56 feet from the man. Callaway is ahead of Guinyard.
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(https://i.imgur.com/CHJvG7Zs.jpg)
Yea so?...then you said....
So yes, Callaway was at the front (closer to Jefferson) and Guinyard was at the back (the alley).
I am not arguing where Callaway is.
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For those not named Capasse...
From Oswald's position having just turned the corner from Tenth onto Patton, Guinyard was halfway down the block and Callaway was three-fourths of the way down the block, i.e. Guinyard was closer to Oswald at that point. Both Guinyard and Callaway were standing on the sidewalk on the east side of Patton.
Oswald, as he is heading down Patton on the east side, sees these two men further down. As Oswald is nearing Guinyard and not running to run right past him within mere feet, Oswald crosses over to the west side of the street. Oswald is now across the street from Guinyard.
Oswald continues down Patton on the west side and shortly before reaching Jefferson, he is now directly across the street from Callaway. This is where the fifty-six feet distance comes into play.
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For those not named Capasse...
From Oswald's position having just turned the corner from Tenth onto Patton, Guinyard was halfway down the block and Callaway was three-fourths of the way down the block, i.e. Guinyard was closer to Oswald at that point. Both Guinyard and Callaway were standing on the sidewalk on the east side of Patton.
Oswald, as he is heading down Patton on the east side, sees these two men further down. As Oswald is nearing Guinyard and not running to run right past him within mere feet, Oswald crosses over to the west side of the street. Oswald is now across the street from Guinyard.
Oswald continues down Patton on the west side and shortly before reaching Jefferson, he is now directly across the street from Callaway. This is where the fifty-six feet distance comes into play.
I haven't disputed any of these locations. - When does the "rolling thumb" discard the shells?
AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
THE STATE OF TEXAS
COUNTY OF DALLAS
BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared Sam Guinyard c/m/38 of 605 East Park St., Waxahachie, Texas who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:
I work as a partner at the used car lot at 501 E. Jefferson. Today about 1:00 pm I heard some shooting near Patton and 10th Street. I ran out and looked. I saw a white man running south on Patton Street with a pistol in his hand. The last I saw of this man he was running west on Jefferson. I went around on 10th Street and saw a policeman laying in the street. He was bloody and looked dead to me. The #2 man in the lineup I saw at the city hall is the same man I saw running with the pistol in his hand.
/s/ Sam Guinyard
SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963
/s/ Mary Rattan
Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas
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I haven't disputed any of this.
Then what did you mean when you stated "Callaway is ahead of Guinyard"?
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I haven't disputed any of this.
Then what did you mean when you stated "Callaway is ahead of Guinyard"?
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{Crickets}
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Then what did you mean when you stated "Callaway is ahead of Guinyard"?
Already stated. Again, has nothing to do with why I don't believe Guinyard.
SG never went further north than the ally. Not sure why you continue to argue a moot point.
{Crickets}
I don't waste my time.
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Already stated. Again, has nothing to do with why I don't believe Guinyard.
SG never went further north than the ally. Not sure why you continue to argue a moot point.
I don't waste my time.
Perhaps I missed it. You said "Callaway is ahead of Guinyard". I informed you that Oswald reached Guinyard well before Callaway and then you say it's a moot point. I was simply asking for clarification on what you meant since you don't "dispute" my statement to you that Guinyard would have been before Callaway.
When you said "Callaway is ahead of Guinyard", were you saying that Oswald would have passed Callaway before Guinyard?