JFK Assassination Forum
JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate => Topic started by: Eddie Haymaker on December 08, 2018, 11:47:42 PM
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Forget about-
Castro, big oil, the mafia. ferrie, blackops, cuban snipers, roselli, hobo?s, bell, bush, Beelzebub and Bannister.Think smaller.real small.
PREFACE-This answer has parts that are fictionalised, parts that are opinions and parts that are concrete. I hope I have made a clear distinction. IMO there is definitive proof, real proof here that exonerates Oswald beyond a reasonable doubt. Please read the whole answer, somethings I have uncovered are UNDENIABLE , SHOCKING and most is taken from the Government?s own evidence.
The more you understand this case and the ?background? information the more you will grasp regarding this answer.I have not copied or compiled pieces from anyone else's work on this.I have drawn my own conclusions based on the evidence myself having studied this for years.
Thank you.
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The mayors office (City Of Dallas) had their hands on every part of this small town crime.The parade route,theTSBD building and the Dallas pd.
Its a small town crime done by small town people.
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The reason LBJ had so much support was that Kennedy caused the cuban crises and nearly destroyed the US (and the world?) with his naivety and inexperience.
I?m sorry but it is true.If he invades Cuba he does not get killed and the Cuban missile crises does not happen. This is one time where I think US intervention would have been a really good thing. He zigged instead of zagged and it cost him his life.
It would have been Good for the Cubans who have suffered the most under communist rule and trade embargoes. Good for American business who at one time was flourishing in Cuba and good for US citizens who loved to leave Miami for a weekend of gambling and debauchery.Cigar anyone?
History has proved Jack wrong.Who won? Castro and the Soviets really. What a huge mistake for everyone concerned.The bop?s disaster not only humiliated some very powerful men but also warned Cuba of US intentions. So he fires Dulles and Cabell. 2 men who built the US international intelligence services more or less from scratch. He does this After he publicly takes personal responsibility for the disaster. In a humiliating ?insult to injury? JFK presents Dulles with the national security medal and the next day forces him to sign his resignation. Kennedy thinks ?nailed it? but dark forces are ranging against him.
When despite all the warnings from his intelligence agencies and military the missiles were found in Cuba his death warrant was signed and those dark forces begin to manifest in earnest.He unintentionally brought the world to the brink of Nuclear conflict. Never before or since has such a danger existed on this planet.World peace decreed, he must go.I am a liberal catholic and I cannot disagree.
The mayors office had their hands on every part of this small town crime.the parade route,the tsbd bulding and the dallas pd.
Earle Cabell was the mayor of Dallas,brother of Charles Cabell who was fired and humiliated over the bop?s fiasco.Johnson knew all the major players personally.He was a congressman Representing Texas for over 20 years before becoming vice president (he was even implicated in the murder of his own sister but thats a whole other story). Just a bad guy.Shooters? probably good ol boys. ex-serviceman or veteran police or ideally both. You can?t find 2 great rifleman in Texas? Cool.Experienced.Local.Expendable.
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Its a small town crime done by small town people.
2 Massive things went wrong that day. LHO was not killed as planned but was arrested. Abraham Zapruder took a film. The most incredible film ever shot.
Jesse Curry was quoted saying between the assassination and LHO?s ARREST was roughly 45 minutes. Thats 1.15pm folks the time of JD?s murder. (interview at dpd Nov 24th )
The ?official? timeline is that LHO is arrested at the Texas Theatre at 1.45pm. He is arrested and back at the DPD by 2.00pm. I think ?roughly? means a 5 minute window not a 30 minute window.
watch from 23.12 - 45 minutes between assassination and ARREST= 1.15pm. YOU WANT THE ?SMOKING GUN?? HERE IT IS.
Now this is on Sunday morning the 24th of Nov 2 days after the JD murder.
The chaos in the DPD is just how they wanted it. Its a difficult investigation there are hundreds of reporters.(whose fault is that? ) at 24.00. Even a reporter suggests a news conference. One reporter ask?s ?are there fears for Oswalds safety?? a 9.15 (he is shot just hours after this interview.) JC fumbles his words a bit and shakes his head as he lies IMO.The rifle fits in the bag intact at 10.28. (wrapped in paper) They seem to be stalling here concerning holding Oswald and getting him representation.
5.45 - Buell Frazier Demonstrates the size of curtain rod bag
9.00 - He compares it to the Mannlicher rifle length.
11.20 - He compares it to the Mannlicher the police found in the TSBD.
Mr Curry also said the infamous ?paperbag? was long enough to carry a rifle NOT DISASSEMBLED. Totally contradicting Mr Fraziers evidence to the contrary. What was Mr Curry doing on airforce one for the swearing in? Didn?t he have rather a lot on his plate the afternoon of the 22nd? A little over an hour ago one of his officers was executed on the streets of Dallas. I wonder how the Tippit family viewed this later.If Chief Curry was not a personal friend of LBJ why would he be on airforce one at love field for this ceremony? The President of the US just got his head shot off 5 minutes drive from where you work everyday, on your watch, in your city.
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He wanted to be there to chum up to the new president and no doubt get a ?pat on the head? It shows where his REAL interests were. I have zero doubt that JC was a key player in this conspiracy (actually THE key player) LBJ must have whispered ?What the fu%k are you doing here?? If the Mayor of Dallas is not there, why is the police chief? Cabell wouldn?t show up to this party.
Jackie probably thought, ?who are you?? As he lines up to console her in the picture? Curry is there shaking hands on airforce one? He is the man running security IN DALLAS. It?s at least in part his responsibility to help protect the President. No? who provided the escort? Of all the people there for the swearing in JC is the one out of place.REAL out of place.
Curry was also responsible for protecting Lee Harvey Oswald. However, he later claimed that just before Jack Ruby shot Oswald he was "called to take a phone call from Dallas Mayor Earle Cabell".
LBJ?s involvement was more in the cover up. Now he was the president and in a position to protect his fellow conspirators. ?you just get the fu^*ing job done and I?ll take care of the rest.? Appointing Dulles to the warren commission was in itself the one action that totally gives him away. 7 days after the murder? Dulles was not an elected official or working for the government.He was just an ex-public servant in November of 1963 and hadn?t worked for the government for over 2 years.
This was LBJ?s way of sending a message to those ?In the know? why JFK was killed and who did it. LBJ was a brutal man. Someone to be feared. He let it be known but still be deniable.
So it seems the century's biggest mystery has long since been solved. They knew, LeMay, Bobby and Earl Warren (other members of the WC expressed serious doubts too) . The Joint Chiefs. What could you do about it? The US government by this time was totally committed to the LHO narrative (thank you DPD) and If that didn?t stop you, LBJ could have you killed.Jim Garrison should thank his lucky stars he didn?t have more success in his investigation or he would have been found dead in a hotel room someplace.
LBJ?s seems to invoke communist involvement in JFK?s murder as a way of diverting attention or when he gets hard questions. He always claimed international involvement.I think underneath it all LBJ felt really justified and proud of what he did. He would have loved to do a ?a few good men? scene and say why he did what he did IMO. ?your damn right I ordered it and I?d do it again? If you consider the WR as a cover up you have to follow that logic through and in turn accept that it was LBJ who was behind it all. It?s as quick and as simple as that to get you to LBJ. To that I guess he would say ?we?ll we had to cover it up, it was the communists.?
Everyone (Washington insiders) knew what happened. Senator Russell Long was not the only man on the hill with suspicions. The only path open to action though was to become more powerful than LBJ. Believe me when I say If RFK had lived to be president he would have solved this crime. They all knew. They all feared LBJ before.Now he has the power of the entire federal government behind him, he was untouchable and Probably still is to this day.
LBJ ?you just make goddamn sure that fuc%ing tape does?t get out until I?m dead and buried, you understand me?? In 1975, Geraldo Aired the Zapruder Film for the First Time to the american public. No cover up? Thats 12 years later. Who destroyed the Lincoln (motorcade) evidence?
Who pushed the hardest for the LHO narrative? The DPD without a doubt in fact its a ?moral certainty?
Why didn?t Bobby come out and object to the Dulles appointment on the Warren Commission as acting Attorney General? Why? I guess he was still in shock,it all went forward so fast. (a week later) The appointment must have been seen as an insult to his brother and his family. RFK thought ?wait, one day I will bury them all? As time passed more and more evidence comes to light as to a conspiracy.
They told us what happened we just didn't listen. LHO said ?I?m just a patsy? he was. Ruby said LBJ did it. He did. How dumb are we? The one surviving member we know for sure was part of this conspiracy, told us directly who did it and we ignored him. You talk about hidden in plane sight? forest for the tree?s? right here.This is it.
One of the other outstanding discrepancies of this case is how LHO got his job at the TSBD. By chance within 5 weeks and he?s a budding assassin all along. Can someone roll some numbers on the likelihood of that as a possibility please.
We also break down the JD murder in detail. As long suspected there are serious timing problems with the DPD version of events.
LBJ organised the major players in the city of Dallas (Cabell and Curry) and they did the job. It was quite sloppy and a lot of things went wrong after the murder but they managed to pull it off and by some small miracle got away with it.
This is strictly a Texan coup. By and for Texans.
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12.30 November 22nd 1963- Dramatisation
?I dont know who the other shooter was or what his role was.I just knew my role inside out.we didn?t need to be chatting on 2-way radio?s or have company.I had clear instructions. Fire a 4?6 round burst and leave immediately, do not wait around to see what happened.Any rifleman will tell you, I hunt alone. Besides who could I trust? Remember hold fire until the nose of that car gets to the stemmons sign.Then fire.I got 5?6 rounds off from the 4th floor of the Dal-Tex building.?
?I know I missed the car once.Which is embarrassing.The trigger on this thing, I let a round off early before I was even set and almost ruined the whole operation.I said the trigger on that goddamn rifle was hairy. These brand new rifles are always stiff.I saw the bullet bounce off the road. It rattled me a bit and I gotta say It wasn?t the best bit of shooting I ever did. That suppressor they made me use didn?t help any.I did hit a good 3?4 shots on target.I put the rifle back in the floor cavity under the carpet where I found it and walked out thinking we probably didn?t get him but I think I killed the Governor,Goddammit. Well I didn?t hit Jackie so I should be ok.?
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So, the back wound of entry exits the neck? That is impossible. So The magic bullet theory is quickly dispelled with one simple picture. The JFK shirt shows the position and the size of the entry wound.We all know the picture.
This shooter is firing from behind but just to confuse and divert he Is using a suppressed automatic loading rifle not a blot action. As quickly as you pull the trigger fires the rifle.He gets off at least 5?6 shots in quick succession. A suppressed rifle is not a silent rifle, Its just turned down a notch. Shots are still audible. He is firing standard military metal jacketed rounds (5.56mm).
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Governor Connolly ?the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle?
He reiterates this point
?It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 1.0, 1.2 seconds. It was extremely rapid, so much so that again I thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots, a very short period of time.? WC Testimony
Probably from the 3rd or 4th floor of the Dal-Tex building. Set back deep in the room where he cannot be seen.Probably the new scoped semi-automatic M16 or AR15 Rifle with suppressor or a similar weapon.(If you look at the diameter of the rear entry wound and the impact on the windshield frame it looks very small for a rifle round, 5.56 mm? perfect.) There are 2 shooters. We dont need 5 teams of shooters, we have the trump card. A shot wide open from 30?40 feet from cover.
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The knoll gunman fires his first shot at the stemmons sign and strikes JFK in the throat. Because it is a hollow point round it shatters on the tie knot and on the trachea but does not severe JFK?s spinal cord killing him instantly. If it were a metal jacketed round it would have.From side on you can see the massive damage under the tissue of the throat. This bullet from the front seems like a standard hollow point round with a very small (5.56?) entry wound. The parkland doctors were of the opinion the neck wound was survivable.
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The Dal-Tex gunman beads a good first shot and strikes JFK in the upper back he rapidly pulls the trigger hitting Connolly in the right shoulder and right wrist (the wrist shot may have ricochet off the limo first) another shot goes between the men and hits the frame above the windshield.The last shot goes over the car completely and a fragment hits James Tague near the triple underpass.A bit wild, perhaps he lost his nerve? not surprising, The rifle does ?rear up? on every shot and It?s a moving target. Some witnesses have described a hail of bullets. This does not look like the work of a trained professional killer or an elite CIA team at all. He struck the target 1 out of 6 bullets fired from behind.
When JFK emerges from behind the stemmons sign he is shot up,now the game is up,the element of surprise is lost,you are now open to take the final shot Our shooter calmly strides to about 1/3rd of the way down the fence line from near the corner ejecting his hollow point cartridge and replacing it with a specifically made bright red rimmed cartridge as he walks. A nearby lookout (Mr secret service) sweeps up the still smoking used casing from the ground and pop?s it in his pocket. The shooter ignores any distraction.
He has reversed this 1,000 times and it shows.He sets up on the fence placing his rear leg back.He knows this spot, he knows this shot.One chance left ,wait wait wait, this shooter is stone cold, wait wait wait take the shot, wait wait,Jackies head is too close,dont hit her,If she is in the line of trajectory of this munition It could easily kill her. I know the way these bullets move on impact. I know where the blast will be. The Lincoln brakes hard wait tighter tighter, as Jackie moves her head away,wait,He whispers ?atta girl? tighter, tighter ,tighter CRACK.
No scope on this rifle,too close for that. Iron sights are better for moving targets as long as you are close.A scope impacts your field of vision, iron sights dont. The mercury tipped bullet explodes perfectly in a red shower. The knoll shooter is employing a classic 223 bolt action rifle that fires the small 5.56mm round. This shooter was as cold as ice. It is simply chilling. He took great care to not hit Jackie.
The knoll gunman used special ?exploding? (probably custom made mercury tipped ) rounds. They hoped to confuse investigators and leave no evidence of the ?real? bullets, now the entry wound looks like an exit wound. Thats why his head looks to explode. Its the bullet.watch the film. Exploding rounds are not something new. Even enthusiastic amateur shooters experiment and make their own ammunition in 1963 Texas.
You dont want an expert target shooter for this job. You need a man who could take the shot just as smooth with a gun to his head. A combat veteran. A man proven under fire. battle tested.IMO all the shooters would probably be killed asap after the assassination.They were carefully selected so they could be quickly and easily disposed of after the fact, successful or not.Not for the reason?s you might think.
?make sure that remaining shooter is done away with now, or He?ll be blackmailing us for the rest of our lives.I can?t be looking over my shoulder everyday worried that xxxxxx is gonna jump out at me ? well ahh we owe him payment Buck ?we can?t pay him you idiot, think of the paper trail, when you meet him on Saturday morning do it then as we agreed? I wonder how full the Dallas morgue was that weekend?
The rifle.Why would he buy literally the cheapest rifle and the worst (and not aligned) scope known to man? He did that on purpose. He?s not about to use it. IMO it was for the photo, one of his handlers somehow got him to buy the rifle for the photo.( and take the photo) framing him as a militant communist. In Texas?yeah Texas. As any tradesman knows you wouldn't waste your time with inferior gear If you are serious and competent about what you are doing. No real shooter would bother with that pos.
The Lincoln. That car must have been full of bullets,fragments and ricochet damage. It is immediately stripped out.Ordered by? I don?t have to say do I? which speaks volumes in itself. We know the windshield was damaged by a fragment or impact.
The Driver William Greer ( Northern Ireland) died on 23rd February, 1985. His son, Richard Greer, was interviewed in 1991. When asked, "What did your father think of JFK," Richard did not respond the first time. When asked a second time, he responded: "Well, we're Methodists... and JFK was Catholic..."
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Ruby was local mob (we use the term mob and not mafia because he wasn?t a made guy. He just had organised crime connections and thats all) and was an expendable ?cleanup? man. It?s all the ?mob? contributed and one of the reason?s people drag them into the theories.IMO I think Jack probably volunteered for this. Perhaps a phone call is made from some friends of his in New Orleans or Chicago. ?I?d take it as a personal favour to me Jack.? I do think he genuinely loved the Kennedy?s and after all its an offer you don?t refuse. Not from either of those men.He is tight with the DPD so I don?t think they had to threaten him although they may have. Good chance he owes someone money somewhere.
This was a huge screwup, Oswald was never meant to be arrested alive. Someone had to be sacrificed to cleanup the mess. Ruby probably had opportunity to shoot Oswald at the DPD sooner than he did. Perhaps he was reluctant and hoping against hope something would save him from going through with it. No doubt the chaos in the building was in part a setup for Ruby to do the deed.
The shooting taking place in the dpd was a desperate move. ?We cant hang him in his cell he just told the world he emphatically denies the charges.? It brought unwanted attention to the dpd and would have made some men who worked there very nervous. ?goddammit that prick Nichols was here yesterday and is getting him a ny lawyer, we gotta move now Jesse, get the fat man in here today or hell will be to pay.?
My first thoughts on this was that LHO HAD to suspect Ruth Paine at this point but no, she has Lee totally under her spell. I guess he just hasn?t had the time to put the pieces together yet. As the DP start putting evidence to him he must start to realise what has happened. I guess it?s a big leap to think one of your friends has set you up and is a CIA operative. I guess it ultimately doesn?t matter If he had suspicions regarding Mrs Paine or not. After around 6 hours mulling it over it must have started to dawn on him. Thats when he said?I?m just a patsy?
Why would he call himself a ?patsy? If he does not know he?s been set up? They think he knows now. Its a matter of time till he accuses (the obviously guilty) Ruth Paine. Saying the patsy quote he unwittingly signals the CIA and RP that he is onto them. It?s gotta be Mrs Paine. (she and her husband are questioned on the evening of the 22nd) If he did suspect RP he must have kept this to himself as his wife and kids are living at her house. When they find the rifle at the TSBD the coin must truly drop for Oswald. Perhaps they kept that evidence from him for that reason. Was he ever challenged with the rifle evidence?. ( The rifle was in her garage.) I don?t think LHO was ever aware how deep and how long his manipulation had been going on.
I guess the important thing to note here is that LBJ is now president so we can more or less do what we want. ?what like kill a guy right on tv?? hell,why not? Who?s coming after us FBI CIA? When ruby said ?the man in office now? from prison he meant it. He told us who did it. He knew he would die for it. When new presidents enter the WH they always ask the same question. ?OK I?m the president now, who killed JFK? ? They just show him this clip and leave the room.
and they always go ?Noooooooo?.?
The DPD were about to ?lose control? as Oswald was to be transferred, he couldn't be allowed to leave that building alive. Why not? The CIA don?t want to expose their undercover operatives in Texas and New Orleans. They do not want hoover in their business. If LHO were to go on trial? It all comes out publicly. This will be our last chance of getting to him. When the news comes through that Oswald is captured alive? Ruth Paine must have swallowed very hard.
Kennedy, JD and Oswald.Its a triple murder case. So JD and Oswald were obviously related to the DPD why not Kennedy too? Makes sense no? How many killers were on the loose that weekend in Dallas?
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IMO to murder JD this father of 3 and a war ?hero? you had to have a very good reason. To sacrifice one of their own? When he is frantically looking for Oswald he was described by witnesses as wild and upset. Climaxing at 1.15pm with his murder. Now If he is a shooter and LHO is the patsy doesn?t it follow that he needs Oswald to take his place,but if there is no Oswald? then what happens to me?
It might have gone like this
Did you see JD on the range? man,that boy can shoot.Well he?s a war hero buck,bronze star in Germany. Look nelson, to hit a moving target like that, he?s gotta be our guy. With iron sights? Lordy.?DING?
No can do buck,the guys got 3 kids. Nell we don?t have a choice. If this fails do I have to explain to you how many heads will roll and to whom those heads might belong? Well,ours for a start.
Now look I dont want spotters or 2-way radio conversations going on.I know I know but listen we are going to have to cleanup this after It?s said and done and we want as little to do as possible,follow? We will have 2 or 3 lookouts to cover our hammer man but thats it. Our Dal-tex man is going to have no problems,he is sealed in tight and safe.2 shooters, One is the anvil (decoy) the other is the hammer.Small and simple.
We are going to use the heaviest car we can but we do expect him to be travelling at around 25 or 30 mph by the time he has to take the shot, Its gonna be split second stuff. A good shooter won?t be good enough If that driver is half as good as he should be. We need to make sure they are hung over as possible, you taken care of it? Sure have, I dont think its going to be difficult, rumours are this team likes to party.
Look I?m sorry Nelson, We have no options here.We can do everything we can to ?make it right? for JD and his family.If he keeps hittin that target like that ?DING? sh&t we have to use him. Call him over here will ya? ?Hey JD..?
What about our anvil? Yeah Buck we?ve got a guy.Target shooter and hunter. His shooting is great, I just hope he has the nerve. He?s got no family, he?s a loner but he has never killed a man before. Great, well Its too late to turn back now. We?ve been told they are trying to get Jackie to wear something nice and bright so she doesn?t get hit. If we hit Jackie we are all in deep and I mean the deepest of trouble, understand?
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Officer Tippit Won the bronze star for bravery as an airborne paratrooper.Whoever was the assassin (the final shot on JFK)he could never be left alive. When JD was shot the shooter went up to the body and executed him with a fatal headshot at point blank range. 45 minutes after the assassination (Kennedy is still warm) Your shooter is dead.
JD had his gun drawn (he knew he was in danger) and had an extra uniform hanging in his car in the back seat.(covered in gunshot residue? would you wanna go home smelling of cordite the day JFK gets shot?) Oswald was no where near JD at that time but the dpd had hoped being that oswald was now a cop killer he would be shot before being brought in.
If you have seen the series band of brothers you will know that paratroopers were the elite of the US army at that time.They were the ?special forces? of the day. JD was an expert marksman since he was a teenager.
Now If he was on patrol alone and had to arrest someone,how could he have his uniform hanging with a wire hanger in the back of his car with a freshly arrested suspect? Does that make sense?
Why have JD killed? Oswald did not do it so why?
Here it is.
The plan was for JD to pick up Oswald as he arrives or before he gets to his rooming house. (before he gets a weapon) Then drive him to the Oakcliff suburbs away from the city.where he would be whisked away (or shot resisting arrest?) by an unknown contact on East 10th.He will approach you JD just make yourself visible as possible. Thats what they told JD anyway. (?you?ll come out of this a hero JD?). Truth is they were going to execute them both and make it look like a shootout. The patsy and the assassin neat and tidy.
He shows up at Oswalds rooming house and beeps the horn twice as planned. No Oswald. (check the car # in Oliver Stones JFK film) Damn we were supposed to get him before he gets home.Now he is armed.Adrenaline,He takes off. Now he is desperately looking for Oswald driving erratically (eyewitness accounts) Now he is thinking,Im the only guy who can find him,they wont shoot me. He is observed as If frantically searching for someone by eyewitnesses. S$%T I gotta be there by 1.15.
So when he turns up without Oswald he knows theres a problem.?What do you mean he?s not with you,WTF? Did we not impress on you how important it was to bring him here??
?Its ok, I can find him.? JD puts his hand on his pistol, too late, blam,blam,blam and one point blank in the temple area,blam. JD?s pistol was drawn.
The shooter ducks down an alley to a waiting car and drives straight to a phone. ?SH%# things are going wrong boss our boy is on the loose, you want me to find him?. ?No, leave it to the DPD it?s their mess,let them clean it up, you drop the shells?, good, come in?
Now Oswald has time to think he panics, where can I go someplace quiet for a minute? He knows he can?t go home and walking around, well he knows JD and his buddies are looking for him now. He is seen acting suspiciously ducking into shop fronts to avoid patrol cars passing by. Distant sirens are heard and cop cars start appearing out of nowhere. ?What is going on, I gotta get outta here ?? The theatre, perfect. He is not thinking clearly and walks right in and sits down.He has money for a ticket but his brain is racing.He is not thinking clearly,He checks his gun.
Think Lee think, catch your breath. I dont think it was a meeting place but by now every cop in Dallas is out looking for him. When the call comes through a few blocks from the JD scene? It?s him. Go go go,Thats why so many cars converged. The area was crawling with cops. He had no idea a few blocks away was a crime scene of a Dallas police officer.
Warren "Butch" Burroughs, who ran the concession stand at the Texas Theatre where Oswald was arrested, said that Oswald came into the theatre between 1:00 and 1:07 pm. Too soon to shoot JD then walk there. Jack Davis, observed Oswald enter the theatre prior to 1:20 pm. Not surprisingly, Davis was not called to testify before the Warren commission. Burroughs testimony to the warren commission does not include any questions about time.Julia Postal the cashier testified as well but was not asked about the timing.
J Brewer also testified but again they refrain from asking ANY questions about the time. They ask questions like ?What you call this lobby, that is the area between the sidewalk and your front door, is that correct? ?
So of all the witnesses in and around the TT none of them was asked about the time (officially) If you are at work there is a very good chance you would have at least an idea of the time. right? clock watches out there?
What about movie theatre?s? they ALWAYS have clocks in the lobby, well you?ve gotta know when your movie starts. Even in 1963. Thats why I tend to believe Burroughs and Davis.Go into any theatre in the world and tell me there is no clock. Even today when everyone has an iphone, there are clocks in theatre?s.
The Commission is apparently aware of the timing problem here. Wouldn't this be quickly established with the telephone records of the Julia Postal phone call from the TT? Like I said ?very sloppy? The DPD did get J Brewer to write an affidavit 2 weeks later to help them with their ?wacky? timeline. It still doesn't quite fit.
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JD was hailed a hero (as promised) and got awarded the Medal of Valor and he also received the Police Medal of Honor, the Police Cross, and the Citizens Traffic Commission Award of Heroism.
His family was looked after (as promised) and donations totalling over 1/2 a million dollars were donated to his family not including all the proceeds of the Zapruder film and personal calls from Jackie (a letter) ,Bobby and the President thanking her for his service. (So LBJ thanks the widow of JD for putting him in the WH personally.) I don?t think there has ever been an outpouring like this for an officer who just managed to get himself shot.
Earlier in the day JD was coming home for lunch, a surprising break in routine. With the president arriving, the policeman had to get back to the streets. So his wife fried potatoes to accompany a tuna sandwich and sent him on his way.
?I felt it was a real blessing that I got to see him one more time,? she said. ?He kissed me ?bye, said thanks for lunch, gave me a hug and left.?
He made a special early trip home for his last meal and said goodbye to his wife. He had a suspicion that If he did this he might be killed too. He was no fool.
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?On a personal note I would just like to say that JFK?s murder IMO was justified I?m sorry. I think If JD was the guy, he is still a hero and an american patriot. If JFK spent as much time on foreign policy as he did ?chasing tail? he might still be alive today.
Think of it, Marilyn Monroe? Thats like Bill Clinton screwing Madonna. Obama and beyonce. Its nuts. The Kennedy family had a history of appeasement and political weakness we all know about and during the BOP fiasco he had a real opportunity to show his detractors that he could be a wartime president and fight for american interests.
He had to either call it off,or commit to it. He did neither. It eventually got him killed. This was a war. we call it cold but this was a war. When those missiles went in that was it. He was a leader ahead of his time. In cold war 63 he was NOT the guy for the job. 1 mans life is not worth 100 million lives. Sadly it got him killed. He had to be removed?
JD Tippets Timeline
11.15?11.50
Lunch
12.17?12.20
At 12:17P.M. Tippit radios the dispatcher and says "be out of the car for a minute, 4100 block of Bonnie View."
cars were not electronically tracked in 1963 so If an officer said where he was the dispatcher had to take his word for it.
12:20
Tippit called back the Dispatcher 3 minutes later at 12:20P.M. and reported "78 clear." .IMO JD is taking up position on the knoll and his car is concealed somewhere,perhaps a nearby garage.
This creates an alibi for him,he was not directed to that location either.
12.30
JFK is shot and killed instantly.
12.45
At 12:45 P.M., 15 minutes after the assassination and 25 minutes since his last communication - he is asked his location and he responds "I'm about Keist and Bonnie View,"
So in the last 25 minutes he hasn't really moved far.
He is still on "bonnie view road"
BUT Al Volkland, and his wife, Lou, both of whom knew Tippit, said that 15 or 20 minutes after the assassination (@12.45) they saw him at a gas station and waved to him. They observed Tippit sitting in his police car at a Gloco gas station in Oak Cliff, watching the cars coming over the Houston Street Viaduct from downtown Dallas.
He is caught lying about his location here.
Only he is not looking for cars.He is looking out for LHO who buses this way to and from work to nth beckley ave everyday. Oswald is on to them now though, he cant take his usual way home. Someone might be waiting. I need my gun. He catches a bus that gets stuck in traffic and then a taxi. He gets out 3 blocks away so he can see If there are police already waiting for him. No cops, quick get the gun and get out of here.
12.54pm
Dispatcher asks Tippit's location, he responds, "Lancaster and Eighth." a lie he is headed for Oswalds boarding house or is pulling up there at that time. So JD is caught lying about his location here again IMO.
1pm
He gets to LHO's rooming house,as agreed at 1pm. Mrs Roberts say's there were 2 policemen in the car and they honked the horn twice . She also says the car number is 106 (another time she says 107) she is also elderly at this point and may have been mistaken. LHO is home and does not respond to police. He is starting to realise the gravity of this.
All bets are off ?I?ve been set up? Oswald leaves and goes to the bus stop.He wants to get back to Irvine to see his wife and check that his rifle is still there. Then it sinks in, ?I might endanger my wife and kids If I do that.? No,I need time to think just walk Lee get away from here for a start. So he heads south away from the city. He walks briskly.
This is also interesting Mrs. Roberts. ?Well, you know, I can't see too good now to read. I'm completely blind in my right eye.? (WC Testimony) If the car is parked parallel she couldn't clearly see 1 or 2 officers as 1 is in front of the other. She also wears glasses and some of her other testimony is a bit confused. Perhaps she makes a quick assumption as 2 man patrols is what she is used to seeing. The distance from inside the house to the road looks to be about 25?30 feet. Curtains? window closed? unreliable at best.
3 years later she died of a heart attack, bless her heart.
1.03 pm
Police dispatcher Murray Jackson called #78 (Tippit) at 1:03 P.M and got no answer. This is significant as it breaks police protocol. He has not got time for that right now.Panic is setting in. At this point Oswald seems calmer than JD does.
1.05pm
The top ten record shop witnesses are unreliable as is all the ?car #10 where are you? evidence. I will disregard it from here on.(they said 10 minutes after JD was here we heard he was shot on the radio). The first reports of the JD shooting were reported by KLIF at around 1.55 pm.
It looks like JD is shot just as LHO is arriving at West Jefferson.
1.15pm JD is shot dead execution style.
1.30 pm Brewer and Postal ring the DPD.
1.55 pm Officer JD Tippit is confirmed as dead on station KLIF.
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This would be Oswald?s route having shot JD and gone to the TT. He could not get to the Texas Theatre before 1.30 without jogging at least some of the way.We can confirm the time he left as 1pm by the evidence of Mrs Roberts and the taxi driver.(even this is generous as the warren commission asserts 1.03pm as his official departure time) arriving at the TT 1.30 pm. Arrested at 1.52 pm. (police dispatch records) Police are searching the area for a suspect on foot for 25 minutes and do not find Oswald. So it takes police 7 minutes to hear the call,arrive,identify and arrest LHO at the TT. (proof they are close by in numbers)
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This is the direct route to the TT having gone no where near the JD crime scene and it works in perfectly with most other evidence as to the timeline. Arriving at around 1.18pm. Which is about perfect given all the eyewitness evidence and the sudden arrival of police responding to Mr Benavides call for help on JD?s radio.
Mr Benavides and company unexpectedly using the police radio screws everything up for the DPD. They now have a fairly accurate ?timestamp? on the record for the time of JD?s murder that they have to live by.This is where we start having serious timeline issues with the DP version of events.
Oswald has no idea a cop has been shot around the corner. So with all this heat he ducks into the theatre.He must have thought ?what the hell is going on?? If he had just shot JD why would he corner himself in a theatre 4 blocks from a crime scene? you would run not hide. Jesse Curry confirms this timeline himself in a recorded interview which is damning to the case against Oswald.
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This is the direct route to the JD scene. He could make it in time to shoot JD at 1.15pm If he walked fast and went directly to JD?s location. (even this is generous as the warren commission asserts 1.03pm as his official departure time) Is this a logical possibility though? Given the evidence that JD was frantically looking for ?someone? that by chance Oswald b-lined right to the man looking for him. Then JD is taken by surprise and shot by that same man. C-3PO odds please?
The only way that makes sense is If they had agreed to meet. Which brings JD into this conspiracy. Oswald had an opportunity to meet with police had he wished when they pulled up at his rooming house at around 1pm. (why is this evidence so quickly dismissed? No one disputes this and it shows a relationship exists after Kennedy is shot between the DPD and Oswald.You ask for evidence? ) The last people he wanted to see at that moment in time were DP officers. So no, I do not believe Oswald would hurry to meet JD or any other member of the DPD.
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The Escape Route
This is the first confirmed sighting of our suspect ( 1.25 pm)
?We believe we've got this suspect on shooting this officer out here. Got his white jacket. Believe he dumped it on this parking lot behind this service station at 400 block East Jefferson across from Dudley Hughes and he had a white jacket on. We believe this is it.? 1.25 pm (police dispatch records)
Dispatch - ?White male, thirty, five feet eight, black hair, slender build, white shirt, black trousers. Going west on Jefferson from the 300 block? 1.26 pm
From here more squads are requested and dispatched. Some are already on West Jefferson and so (in daylight) drive right by our running suspect. Multiple units arrive on West and East Jefferson between 1.26 and 1.28.
He cannot escape they have him boxed in. So in 5 minutes he runs the 10 minute walk right past 1/2 a dozen units.(to get to Brewers store by 1.30 pm) Right down West Jefferson.According to police records.
J Brewer describes him being elusive and looking paranoid. Why would he boldly stride up to JD?s car and start a conversation? He was driving along very slowly. He couldn?t be avoided? Things just don?t add up here.
Mr Benavides the most reliable witness at this scene was close enough to see the killer throw the shells in a bush. The other eyewitness testimony from the JD scene is doubtful at best IMO.He refused to ID Oswald. His brother (who bares resemblance) was murdered soon after in a crime that went unsolved. They suspect DPD involvement and his family firmly believe it was a case of mistaken identity.
Its absolutely possible that JD?s involvement was limited to capturing (or killing) Oswald and that his knowledge of the conspiracy was enough to get him killed. Another ?loose end?? like Oswald himself. Possible but unlikely IMO.
I discard the theory that he was murdered just to incriminate Oswald further and/or motivate the DPD into shooting him on sight. Its not enough and doesn?t tie in with the other evidence of JD?s movements. He spent most of that morning outside his patrol area and within 10 minutes of Dealey Plaza before the shooting.
Brewer says around 1.30pm in his Dec 6th affidavit which IMO is unreliable and suspect. Why wait 2 weeks for a statement regarding time? This contradicts 3 key time witnesses Burroughs,Davis and Curry himself that have him arrested at about 1.20 pm. The timing is mentioned in the first line of his statement. No mention of timing in his answers to the WC though. Julia Postal was treated much the same way and also gave an affidavit saying 1.30 pm.
What do I think was the timeline?
1.18 pm seems like the time Oswald arrives and the police are called to the TT at 1.23 pm. 1.20 pm is also the time the movie starts. So he is arrested at about 1.35 pm by the time they get the call,arrive at the theatre, get units around the back and subdue LHO. It takes 15 minutes to get into the city arriving around 1.50pm. (generous as Oswald took 30 minutes to get home earlier in the day.) It takes 10 minutes under normal traffic conditions. These were not normal conditions. They book him in at around 2pm.
Lets compare that to the official version.
LHO arrives at the TT at around 1.30pm (brewer). (By 1.30 there are multiple units on jefferson east/west streets.) They call police around 1.35 and dispatch announces suspect at TT at 1.46 pm. (takes 10 minutes to get message through and dispatched?) They arrest Oswald at 1.52 pm. 7 minutes To arrive at the scene, surround the building, identify Oswald, subdue and arrest him. Then in under 8 minutes he is driven to cityhall and booked b y 2 pm. (8 minute drive under normal conditions)
There is evidence that Oswald is in custody by 1.40 pm. The LHO arrest report sates approx time at 1.40 pm.
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It could be said we are splitting hairs with this. 10 minutes here means the difference between guilt or exoneration.I just can?t overlook the fact that Mr Davis who is watching the film and it starts at 1.20 pm must know If LHO entered the theatre before the film started or not. Whereas Mr Brewer has no time reference and his affidavit was taken 2 weeks after the fact. His affidavit is obviously to establish a timeline favourable to police. He mentions time in the first sentence.
So it takes 16 minutes between the time Brewer says he saw Oswald and the dispatch giving the bolo. This is a big problem.For the murder of a policeman It is just too long. Police intimidation of witnesses has been a real issue looking into this crime. Multiple witnesses have complained about it and 1 or 2 seem have lost their lives. Ask Mr Benevidez about that. It seems the ?timestamp? affidavit by Brewer has been enough to carry this entire case on as to timing for the DPD. What If he declined to file the affidavit?
I choose to ignore the radio dispatch?s for the most part as they could easily be falsified and They do not seem to match some key eyewitnesses evidence. I also have trouble with LHO walking down East Jefferson somehow avoiding police in daylight as more units arrive down Nth Beckley from the city.
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Dispatcher: 1:40 p.m.
550/2 (Sergeant Gerald L. Hill): A witness reports that he last was seen in the Abundant Life Temple about the 400 block. We are fixing to go in and shake it down.
Dispatcher: Is that the one that was involved in the shooting of the officer?
550/2: Yes.
Dispatcher: They already have him.
550/2: No, that wasn't the right one.
Another coincidence here with a 1.40 timestamp. Police telling a dispatcher whats up?. These documents though I feel are unreliable at best. DPD.
Conclusion Tippit Murder
Given all this I cannot see how in a balanced courtroom (NOT in Texas) you could convict him on the FACE evidence. I think a number of witnesses have either lied, been intimidated or are mistaken regarding the JD murder scene. There are so many conflicting points of view at the actual scene that IMO I am willing to go with Mr Benevidez alone as he was close enough and seems to have been doing his best to do the right thing by the DPD. He picked up the shells for the police and put them in a cigarette packet but he refused to ID Oswald. One of the real hero?s of this entire ugly affair IMO.
22.22 - Leaving Love Field 11.50pm
1.16.16 - JFK shot reported at around 12.45pm
1.53.48 - last rites given death not official 1.24 pm
1.57.57 - Strong indication he is dead 1.28 pm
2.05.29 - Official JFK dead 1.35 pm
2.14.45 - Shot right through the temple.this was a surprise. They also mention the grassy knoll. 1.43 pm.
2.25.52 - First Reports Police Officer shot 1.55 pm.
The timing is so suspect and contradictory I just have to weigh the evidence and it tells me Oswald walked down his street (perhaps he knew there were films screening at 1.20 pm? Seems a huge coincidence he arrives on time to watch it. ) Briskly having waited for a few minutes at the bus stop. He arrives around 1.20 just in time to see the police cars showing up to the JD crime scene. By now he is deep into West Jefferson away from the main police ?thrust? down East Jefferson towards the JD crime scene. 10 minutes walk east puts Oswald right smack dab where all the police are converging on East Jefferson.
The 16 minutes between the time Brewer says he saw Oswald and the dispatch to the TT at 1.46 pm. If this is an accurate response time for the murder of a policeman I pity the citizens of Dallas. Then it takes only 6 minutes for DP to surround the TT, identify,subdue and arrest Oswald at 1.52 pm. (and that is assuming THEIR version of events are true and correct.)
If you read Brewer?s WC testimony it sounds like around the same time he hears on the radio JD had been shot LHO dipped into his store. This is impossible as the first news of the JD shooting doesn't come through until around 1.45 pm.As he see?s police reacting outside.
A police car even does a uturn and continues east towards the crime scene (Brewer?s own affidavit) It makes sense they just heard the tragic news regarding JD at 1.18 pm. ?About this time a police car came up the street going west on Jefferson. When the police car reached Zangs it made a turn and went back east on Jefferson.?
This is the last piece I needed to draw a conclusion.
That STAMPS LHO at Hardy?s at around 1.18 pm and entering the TT before 1.20 pm corroborating the eye witness accounts of 4 men Burroughs,Davis,Benevidez and Curry.
There is a literal mountain of evidence to confirm this timeline. The contrary? DPD dispatch records and some very scared witnesses.
VERDICT-INNOCENT
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Around 5 Weeks into the job Kennedys motorcade drives right by Oswald at his new and innocently found job at the tsbd.
You know I have worked in a heap of different jobs. I have never worked somewhere the POTUS drove past. I have worked for around 30 years and not once?.
So what we are to believe is Oswald an emerging assassin (walker attempt) got a job within 5 weeks in a high rise building, overlooking the POTUS motorcade route, where he would slow to around 8 mph in a perfect position to be shot by a rifle, BY CHANCE?The neighbour (Buell Frazier) of a friend (Ruth Paine) worked there and he was hired when Ruth Paine calls to get him the job (by her own testimony).
Not just a building on the route but a perfect building to shoot from under these perfect conditions. (open top, slow speed, no detail) Think about that. He didn't even call about the job himself and If the government?s evidence is true and correct he would not have known until around the Tuesday at the very earliest that the motorcade went anywhere near his building (So with only 2 full days to prepare) This is evidence.
Mrs. PAINE - ?And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.? WC Testimony
a lie, she did not. Then she claimed to LMR that Buell was going to ask for her, another lie.The DPD were very rough on Buell Frazier, thats why curry didn?t care what he said regarding the package length. Buell was terrified ?hell I could have said it was 10 feet long and that boy would have agreed.?
Mrs. RANDLE ?Mrs. Paine said that, I had told Wesley that he might--that she said he was going to call over there. In fact, Mrs. Paine asked me if I would call and see if there was a job available and I told her, no, that I didn't know anybody over there, and if she wanted to call over the place she would have to do it because I didn't know if there was any job openings over there. ? WC Testimony.
this connects Oswald to Paine (CIA) to the city of Dallas (tsbd) . Its not my opinion these are facts. So If its the city of Dallas thats the Cabell brothers, thats CIA and thats LBJ.
Buell Frazier drove Oswald to work from Irvine when he stayed out there. Buell started working there just 2 months before the shooting. Ruth Paine got oswald the job (rang the tsbd HERSELF to get oswald the job) and produced damning evidence after the fact.Paine tried to get buells sister to get Oswald the job but she said no (she didn?t even know him) Mrs Paine is obviously Oswalds senior handler and the key to the entire Oswald setup.
You see Oswald cant drive, he had to have someone out in Irvine to give him a ride to work. what a coincidence huh? Mr Frazier has described Oswald as a very cerebral man who used language a normal guy struggled to understand. ?I emphatically deny these charges? who talks like that? only lawyers.He seems to be an intellectual type not an alpha type at all.
I believe Buell Frazier and Linnie May Randle were manipulated by Mrs Paine and I also believe LMR felt she was being manipulated when RP tried to get her to call the TSBD on behalf of a virtual stranger. My opinion is she knew something was wrong being asked to do that.She had only met RP once or twice before.They were not ?close?.The testimony of Frazier and Randle, who each stated on two occasions that the bag they saw was much too short to have contained the rifle, even in its disassembled state. Frazier also claimed that the bag Oswald had carried was a standard grocery store bag.
It has been established that at his rooming house there were curtains. So we may never know what was in that paperbag. LHO told police it was his lunch.
Shouldn't Ruth Paine had been on suicide watch? As it was her fault Oswald got the job at the TSBD? In her interviews she doesn't appear guilt ridden at all.
Paine had gotten friendly with the Oswalds because she wanted to learn Russian. What about the fact she actually taught Russian in 1963 while claiming in Feb of 63 she could only speak very poorly? thats why the friendship.
quite a friend too she drove them to new Orleans and back.Let Marina move in with her and the children. Got Lee a job (who she says she disliked). So helpful.
Just to learn Russian? Which she could already speak fluently.
Eight days after the assassination of President Kennedy, on November 30, 1963, Ruth Paine inadvertently discovered evidence that Lee Oswald had attempted to assassinate General Edwin Walker. Among the letters that Ruth Paine repeatedly sent to Marina was a thick book of household advice in Russian. The book contained an undated note left by Lee for Marina on April 10, 1963 (the day of the Walker assassination attempt)
Lets for arguments sake assume he did take a shot at walker.
This is where it all comes undone. On one hand they are presenting this like a totally innocent coincidence where they get him the job by chance and good intent but on the other is the walker evidence being revealed after the fact showing him to be an aspiring assassin all along.
So which one is it? You can?t have both.
C-3PO?s head is about to explode.
Oh and BTW the route was changed too leading up to the visit.
KA-BOOM
You wanna talk about getting Dracula a job at the blood bank?
This is real evidence (circumstantial) but undeniably strong as to a wider conspiracy In Dallas and it was provided by the Warren Commission.
The public only knew on the morning of the 19th (Tuesday) the motorcade route and it was depicted as going straight down main street. At this point lets just agree there is confusion over who printed what map when and If the route was changed at all, who approved it? Lets just say If you were a lone assassin you wouldn?t know where to shoot from or when exactly.
From the Evidence you have to charge Ruth Paine with conspiracy to murder don?t you? The rifle is kept at your house? You speak Russian?
October 16, 1963: LHO begins work at the TSBD. 5 Weeks.
Does he apply for a dozen jobs all along the motorcade route? No
Who are the ONLY people who might have foreknowledge of the route? The secret service and Officials of the city of Dallas.
Was the route changed? It doesn?t matter. The City of Dallas was ultimately responsible for the route. The secret service don?t plan the route in someone else?s town.
Who did LHO work for? The city of Dallas.
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WIKI-Ruth Paine
?According to a declassified CIA document, Ruth's sister, Sylvia Hyde Hoke, was listed as an employee of the agency in the Falls Church, VA local directory in 1961. Ruth visited and stayed with her sister in September 1963. Ruth admits that her sister may have worked for "an outfit."
Ruth's father, William Avery Hyde, was an insurance executive who went to work for USAID (United States Agency for International Development), which was and is a well known cover for CIA personnel. Declassified documents show that Hyde had contacts with the CIA, which at least considered him for use in an operation in Vietnam.
Ruth's husband Michael Paine was the son of Ruth Forbes Paine and George Lyman Paine Jr.. Ruth Forbes Paine was a close friend of Mary Bancroft, an OSS agent and at times a mistress of CIA director Allen Dulles and Henry Luce.
Ruth Forbes Paine later married Arthur M. Young, who was a member of Andrija Puharich's Roundtable Foundation?
The CIA produced the Walker confession documents and I?m sure some unknown loon had a shot at Walker.Before the Kennedy assassination, Dallas police had no suspects in the Walker shooting. Being she had family CIA connections she would never crack-or her family would go down too.Now RP may not have been an official CIA agent but definitely an asset or associate like De Mohrenschildt (who introduced them ?handed them off? to RP). They are all local people though, no one has been brought in. This is strictly a Texan coup. By and for Texans.
RFK accuses LBJ of planning a coup.
RFK called the then head of the CIA John McCone and asked him outright ?did you kill my brother?? McCone convinced him he did not and I believe him. It was elements loyal to the ?old guard ? that were behind this and CIA involvement was minimal and limited to locals in this operation. So RFK?s first instinct was to suspect the CIA? this is telling. (So when people laugh at CIA involvement) They are all local people though. CIA or not. This is a down home crime.
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AFTERMATH-Thankyou. You will have noticed some times seem to be different IE time of Oswalds arrest. I have taken all my ?official? timing either from the WC or from DPD information. Sometimes there are contradictions.Where possible I have sided with credible witnesses.
Now there are some things I am not 100% convinced about myself. Was JD a shooter? Its a possibility, perhaps unlikely. Was he involved? IMO Absolutely.It looks as though JD was supposed to kill LHO. When he failed to do that he was shot. How many gunman were there? Its hard to be sure but 2?3. There is a mountain of supporting evidence that I have omitted here but I feel you need to condense it as much as possible. One thing is sure,the shooting from the rear was terrible. Did LBJ have prior knowledge? It?s purely circumstantial and deniable but the evidence as to motive is compelling.IMO his actions after the fact betray him as guilty of conspiracy to murder.Could I prove it in court? No.
Did Oswald know JD? we don?t know but It seems like JD knew Oswald. The evidence suggest?s some relationship between them. You can see the TT from the topten Record store where JD went to use the phone at around 1.05 pm. Even the fact that (according to police) Oswald is right here in around 25 minutes time and JD was right here. So at random they run into each other On east 10th and Patton?
Dallas is a big town and JD seems to know right where he?s going to be at. Does that make logical sense?
Lets not forget the universally accepted fact a DP squad car pulled up at LHO?s house 30 minutes after the shooting and tooted the horn. ?we had no cars in that area at that time? and thats it? Come on now. Here we are waiting for the ?new? evidence. Whats wrong with the old evidence?
This crime could be solved with the available evidence.
Did Oswald take the rifle in to work? No, having watched Buell Fraziers interviews and hearing Jesse Curry contradict him It seems impossible. He may have wanted it to LOOK like he was following instructions and taking a ?package? to work but this man is far too smart to bring his rifle that day.IMO. He left his pistol at home.
One fact stands out and annoy?s me so much.Oswald attempted to fire at and kill a policeman in the TT. Only the webbing on his thumb and forefinger saved his life. It absolutely gives me pause. Perhaps in the weeks leading up to the event they pressured him. We know Hosty was stressing him, who knows what they were doing to him behind the scene?s. Maybe we got ?peak Oswald??. They do have LHO on resisting arrest, assault and attempted murder don?t they? There?s a shot in the arm for all you sceptics out there. No matter how innocent he was for anything else Oswalds still goes down.Fact.
The one thing I just cannot deny that always brings me back is the zapruder film. you can?t lie to your eyes. The knoll shot is undeniable.
Oswald seems of high intelligence and not an easy mark as people have assumed. As soon as he knew JFK was shot he suddenly became uncooperative and had good awareness he had been set up. I believe the Dallas Police really wanted a confession and did everything they could to get him to confess (these are the same people that gave us the thin blue line documentary). If he had he might have survived this IMO. I have used IMO a lot.Just as not to confuse MO with facts. A guilty plea of course means no trial,no evidence.
I took it for granted we would never know the basic facts of this case but the evidence is there and has been all along.
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IN CONCLUSION-
You know at the end of the film when you think the monsters dead?THIS IS THE BIG REVEAL-Fictionalised
JD knew Oswald.They planned this together. Oswald thought up till he died that he was going to rescue the President and that JD his friend, killed the President or helped kill him. LHO anonymously warns the FBI HQ and in person with the infamously destroyed ?Hosty Note? 12 November.
Dobbs House Restaurant,1221 North Beckley
November 11th, 1963, 7 am, Monday
JD ?look Lee,we have word somebody is going to try and kill the president, you wanna be famous? I need you to bring your rifle to work, setup on a quiet floor and fire a round or two in the air. The car will take off and the president will be saved. No Lee I have tried to let them know, no good they wont call the trip off. It?s up to us.
?You know we can?t trust the DPD with this.We can?t let them take us in Lee. If you are arrested I can?t help you. This is your chance to show you are a good american.You are aren?t you Lee?? Lee points to his marine corp ring.Would I wear this If I wasn?t? He?s a family man like us. Lets save his life. ?Meet me at Austin Barbecue Saturday night (16th), Don?t make it obvious,ok?.?
Austin Barbecue Saturday night 16th
?Why me?? well you work in that building and I need someone I can trust. JD has the power of the conspiracy behind him still, Oswald doesn?t. The same dal-tex shooter is there (unbeknown to Oswald of course) The only major change in this scenario is the very first shot is not a mistake from our anvil shooter but a warning shot fired by Oswald into the air well before the car reaches the sign. ?wait till the nose of the car gets to the stemmons sign and fire into the air.You still can?t be caught Lee, make sure you hide yourself up there and I will call you on the phone. If anything goes wrong meet me at your rooming house by 1 pm. I will pick you up. I have my inside man in the CIA at the TT you will meet him there at 1.20pm. Get a ticket to Cry of Battle remember don?t write anything down. Commit it to memory. He will take care of the rest.We will give you passports,cash and tickets to anywhere in the world you want to go, A new start for your new family??
? JD are you crazy? Just don?t go nuts and tell anybody, The presidents life is at stake, Its up to us now.?should I bring my pistol to work too?? No, can?t risk you being caught with it on you. I have inside men in the government standing by. Don?t worry we?ll be ok.
November 21st, Irvine.
So, that Thursday night in Irvine LHO writes a letter to Marina of what is about to happen in Russian and puts in deep in a bound folder they have in storage in RP?s garage. (later found and destroyed by the DPD.) ?I never really believed JD until I heard at work today Kennedy is passing right by. This is real. My god.? He breaks down his rifle, and puts it in 2 pieces in a shopping bag.
?Well I left 2 messages to the FBI (Hosty knows who he is) and this letter.If something goes wrong the truth will come out.They can prove I tried to stop this.? Next day he shows up early at Buell?s house with his package and they drive to work.
Nov 22nd 1963
Crack, LHO fires his rifle in the air. then, OMG what the?he is clasping his throat, what the hell?CRACK?disbelief CRACK, horrer. Lee Drop?s his rifle.
FU%K, quick wipe your prints down and stash the rifle. calm calm down Lee. Into the lunch room. Phone call, have a coke Lee relax.calm. ?a man shot the president? Having Marion Bakers gun put on him moments after viewing his first murder. Now we are approaching ?peak Oswald.? I can?t sit here waiting for a phone call. I gotta get outta here,now. He is described by some on the bus as looking mortified almost crazed.
JD will be expecting me on the bus, what am I thinking? I can?t believe JD and his boys killed the President, they are going to kill me and frame me.Taxi (first ever taxi ride,well desperate times.) whew home 1pm beep beep, It?s him. Look out the window, no I cant trust the DPD now.They are either idiots or they?re in on it.I?ll meet our CIA liaison but just in case click click.Oswald loads his revolver, changes clothes and walks to the bus stop. I?m alone now,Its up to me.
Meanwhile JD is frantically looking for Oswald all around West Jefferson very close to the TT. Sh&t is that dumb kid still waiting for me to call him in the lunchroom? He bursts into the topten record shop and rings the TSBD lunchroom. No surprises there, nobody answers.Well I?ll have to explain to my contact where he is If I cant find him.sh^t.(nobody but JD knows of the TT meeting,the ?ace? up his sleeve) Of course there is no CIA agent waiting for Oswald.
East 10th Street.
WTF? where is he? ?somewhere near by, somewhere safe.? Tell me JD I swear to god. ?I?ll take you to him,calm down, come on jump in.? He gets out raising his gun as he hides it opening his drivers side door. He realises the way his contact is speaking to him he has been setup too.DRAW.Too late blam,blam,blam.
The 1.00 pm bus (Its late) takes Lee to the west/east Jefferson intersection where he gets out and walks to Hardy?s shoe store where he is seen acting suspiciously by Mr Brewer at about 1.07 pm (In this scenario we are going to ignore brewers affidavit that claims he had just heard on the radio a patrolman had been killed and his 1.30 timestamp). He does not trust the DPD.
The reason he dives into the store? He see?s JD?s #10 car looking for him and assumes he will kill him for sure. He doesn?t realise it but JD does see him. ?ah there you are,now where is this prick.? He swings the car around and drives towards East 10th (1.10 pm) Where he is calm and relaxed (now he knows Oswald is tucked away for 3 hours) he cruises very slowly down East 10th.
LHO gets to the theatre around 1.10 pm. He has a prepurchased ticket for the double feature in his hand but doesn?t see a ticket taker so he walks in just as the credits start.
Whew hot in this theatre. He Takes his jacket off with his ticket and puts it on the seat next to him.(where it is later found by one of many DP in on the sting.) He starts moving about looking for his contact.The house light?s come on.?there he is?
?Why did I try to escape and shoot that officer? I thought they were going to kill me either here or take me out the back.This is Texas. To them I?m a communist.? He is arrested about 1.25 pm. Brewer goes back to his store, on his way out he looks at the clock in the foyer of the Theatre 1.30pm. He notes the time as he walks back into his shop the radio talks of the shooting of a Dallas patrolman.
The end used to be a homage to Oswald but I realised in writing this that he was not totally innocent at all. He was going to do 10-20 years no matter how you slice it. In this scenario did Oswald shoot at the president? I just don?t think they would have wanted him blasting away from up there with that awful rifle. We don?t want Joe Monday down there blown away or Jackie. If the plan WAS for him to shoot surely Mrs/Mr Paine loaded his rifle with Blanks a few days before.
Was LHO so angry with JD that he meets him and shoots him? Its possible but IMO highly unlikely. Oswald is Joe Monday.He?s no killer. Benevides says no. JD would expect him and know he?s armed.How could he surprise him like that?
You see once the president was killed Oswald changed and he goes ?off script? He should have been easily arrested or killed by the DPD If he had done as they asked. (meeting JD at 1 pm.) No,he wasn?t going along after JFK is shot. That tells me he didn?t kill or even try to kill JFK. So perhaps he WAS trying to save him. It just fits with the evidence. His behaviour changes.Things start going wrong for the DPD conspiracy.
Did he kill the president? No, It always (for me) goes back to Mr Zapruder?s film.
THANK YOU-please share this about.
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Congratulations, Eddie. You now are the proud owner of the longest post in the history of forum postings. Thumb1:
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Congratulations, Eddie. You now are the proud owner of the longest post in the history of forum postings. Thumb1:
An angry, disaffected person - Lee Oswald - took his rifle, got a bit lucky (tragically so), and shot the president.
People don't want to think that history can change in such a manner. Great events, great changes need to have a great cause behind it. Oswald was not a great cause but he caused great changes. So people need to make Oswald "bigger", they have to place him among powerful groups.
We have the additional fact that people have grievances against "the government". Or some thing or institution, e.g., LBJ, Hoover, "the" CIA. So they use the event to express these grievances. JFK was killed by these groups or people. It all makes sense to them.
I was a conspiracy believer or advocate for years. The SBT made no sense, Oswald had to be more than a simple loser. The Oswald as lone assassin, as changer of history didn't make sense. I didn't want to believe it.
But that's what happened. It's been more than half a century and time has exposed all of these other explanations as making some sense on the surface - JFK did have many enemies - but falling apart when closely examined.
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An angry, disaffected person - Lee Oswald - took his rifle, got a bit lucky, and shot the president.
People don't want to think that history can change in such a manner. Great events, great changes need to have a great cause behind it. Oswald was not a great cause but he caused great changes. So people need to make Oswald "bigger", they have to place him among powerful groups.
We have the additional fact that people have grievances against "the government". Or some thing or institution, e.g., LBJ, Hoover, "the" CIA. So they use the event to express these grievances. JFK was killed by these groups or people. It all makes sense to them.
I was a conspiracy believer or advocate for years. The SBT made no sense, Oswald had to be more than a simple loser. The Oswald as lone assassin, as changer of history didn't make sense. I didn't want to believe it.
But that's what happened. It's been more than half a century and time has eroded all of these other explanations.
I was a conspiracy believer or advocate for years. The SBT made no sense, Oswald had to be more than a simple loser. The Oswald as lone assassin, as changer of history didn't make sense. I didn't want to believe it.
IOW... The alternative ( that a powerful cabal of "ultra patriots" conspired to rid the nation of an inept, bumbling , Catholic commie who was delivering the Nation to the communists) was too horrible to accept. Therefore I ( Steve) found it much more comfortable to accept the B.S. that the cabal presented,... and I've lived happily ever after....
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An angry, disaffected person - Lee Oswald - took his rifle, got a bit lucky, and shot the president.
People don't want to think that history can change in such a manner. Great events, great changes need to have a great cause behind it. Oswald was not a great cause but he caused great changes. So people need to make Oswald "bigger", they have to place him among powerful groups.
We have the additional fact that people have grievances against "the government". Or some thing or institution, e.g., LBJ, Hoover, "the" CIA. So they use the event to express these grievances. JFK was killed by these groups or people. It all makes sense to them.
I was a conspiracy believer or advocate for years. The SBT made no sense, Oswald had to be more than a simple loser. The Oswald as lone assassin, as changer of history didn't make sense. I didn't want to believe it.
But that's what happened. It's been more than half a century and time has eroded all of these other explanations.
I broadly agree. I flirted with the conspiracy view mainly due to reading one or two books plus the CT had an edge, bit of street cred. But taking more of an objective fair minded and evidence based approach I believe in the Lone nut scenario. The killing of JD Tippit is crucial to this case. There are a number of iffy situations, regarding the TSBD not massive by any means, but a few loose ends.
I think that CT's really don't fully 100% think Oswald didn't kill Tippit. They'll never admit it but they have an extremely flimsy defence.
Commit murder, with at least 6 witnesses Identifying you, with others giving a 75-85% ID....your nailed..end of. It's the Tippit killing that tips the already heavy scales against LHO. Had he just co-operated with Tippit, he might've had a chance..but he didn't.
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I broadly agree. I flirted with the conspiracy view mainly due to reading one or two books plus the CT had an edge, bit of street cred. But taking more of an objective fair minded and evidence based approach I believe in the Lone nut scenario. The killing of JD Tippit is crucial to this case. There are a number of iffy situations, regarding the TSBD not massive by any means, but a few loose ends.
I think that CT's really don't fully 100% think Oswald didn't kill Tippit. They'll never admit it but they have an extremely flimsy defence.
Commit murder, with at least 6 witnesses Identifying you, with others giving a 75-85% ID....your nailed..end of. It's the Tippit killing that tips the already heavy scales against LHO. Had he just co-operated with Tippit, he might've had a chance..but he didn't.
Mt Hardaker, I'm sure you know that the revolver that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald in the Texas Theater was a 38 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver. The S&W revolver is unloaded by releasing a latch and pushing the cylinder out of the frame of the revolver to the left side. Then the spent are pushed out of the cylinder by pushing an extractor rod toward the rear of the revolver. All six chambers are emptied in one stoke of the extractor.
This was demonstrated for the Warren Commission by FBI agent Cortland Cunningham.... Cunningham had fired "Oswald's" revolver before appearing before the WC, and later that morning demonstrated how the revolver operated. ( you can read his testimony ) He very clearly said that all six chambers of "Oswald's" revolver were emptied with one stroke of the extractor rod.
And he said he had burned gunpowder in the PALM of his hand when he pushed the spent shells from the chambers.
The witnesses at the scene of Tippit's murder ALL reported that the killer had removed one shell at a time from the revolver that the killer had used to shoot J.D.Tippit. The spent shells at the Tippit scene were scattered over a wide area. The S&W that allegedly belonged to Lee Oswald cannot be unloaded in the manner the witnesses described, because the chambers are oversize for the 38 special ammunition that was used, and they expand and stick in the chambers. (Cunningham said he had some difficulty in pushing the spent shells out with the extractor rod...He hammered the rod to the rear with the heel of his hand)
Anybody with the ability to reason can understand that the Killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson revolver.
And on a final note....Cunningham had burned gunpower in THE PALM of his hand after he extracted the spent shells. Lee Oswald allegedly had a TRACE of nitrates on the BACK of his hand .....
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An angry, disaffected person - Lee Oswald - took his rifle, got a bit lucky, and shot the president.
People don't want to think that history can change in such a manner. Great events, great changes need to have a great cause behind it. Oswald was not a great cause but he caused great changes. So people need to make Oswald "bigger", they have to place him among powerful groups.
We have the additional fact that people have grievances against "the government". Or some thing or institution, e.g., LBJ, Hoover, "the" CIA. So they use the event to express these grievances. JFK was killed by these groups or people. It all makes sense to them.
I was a conspiracy believer or advocate for years. The SBT made no sense, Oswald had to be more than a simple loser. The Oswald as lone assassin, as changer of history didn't make sense. I didn't want to believe it.
But that's what happened. It's been more than half a century and time has eroded all of these other explanations.
I agree completely with that analysis, Steve. I never gave the assassination much thought until the movie Executive Action came out and was influenced by it to some degree. I was only 20 at the time and had lived through the anti-war movement but I had better things to do, but it was the movie JFK that tickled my curiosity. After reading Accessories After The Fact by Sylvia Meagher I began to lean toward the possibility of a conspiracy but it was not until the age of the internet that I was exposed to support for the WC. The cogent arguments made in support of the LN turned me completely into a LNer.
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... real proof ...that exonerates Oswald beyond a reasonable doubt.
[Just a reasonable doubt is sufficient.]
The mayors office (City Of Dallas) had their hands on every part of this small town crime.The parade route,theTSBD building and the Dallas pd. Its a small town crime done by small town people. [They were used...by a major power] Jesse Curry was quoted saying between the assassination and LHO?s ARREST was roughly 45 minutes. Thats 1.15pm folks the time of JD?s murder. (interview at dpd Nov 24th ) [Curry was a screw up and didn't know which way was up ...read this-------] https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,233.msg12652.html#msg12652
... and by some small miracle got away with it. [It was no small miracle]
This is strictly a Texan coup. [Nope. It was a military/big business coup. Inside the CIA and was organized using anti-Castro mercenaries as snipermen]
I do think he genuinely loved the Kennedy?s [Ruby? Don't kid yourself.]
Ruth Paine at this point but no, she has Lee totally under her spell. [Lee? Nope. Marina]
Some of the rest of the screenplay is probable. Throughout the history of events there had to be an Oswald look-alike. Too many contradictory stories revolve around that likelihood.
I saw that motorcade from the H L Green 2nd floor cafeteria. The racket made by the motorcycles with their sirens going [at least on Main St where I was] and cheering crowd could have covered up the suppressed shots from a rifle. I looked around at the surrounding buildings with their open windows and wondered commenting to my classmate I was with...What if. We stopped at a 7-11 and got a soda when we heard the news flash. Damn!
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Some of the rest of the screenplay is probable. Throughout the history of events there had to be an Oswald look-alike. Too many contradictory stories revolve around that likelihood.
I saw that motorcade from the H L Green 2nd floor cafeteria. The racket made by the motorcycles with their sirens going [at least on Main St where I was] and cheering crowd could have covered up the suppressed shots from a rifle. I looked around at the surrounding buildings with their open windows and wondered commenting to my classmate I was with...What if. We stopped at a 7-11 and got a soda when we heard the news flash. Damn!
You were there, Jerry! Wow, must have been something. BTW, who were these anti-Castro mercenaries?
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Mt Hardaker, I'm sure you know that the revolver that was allegedly taken from Lee Oswald in the Texas Theater was a 38 caliber Smith and Wesson revolver. The S&W revolver is unloaded by releasing a latch and pushing the cylinder out of the frame of the revolver to the left side. Then the spent are pushed out of the cylinder by pushing an extractor rod toward the rear of the revolver. All six chambers are emptied in one stoke of the extractor.
This was demonstrated for the Warren Commission by FBI agent Cortland Cunningham.... Cunningham had fired "Oswald's" revolver before appearing before the WC, and later that morning demonstrated how the revolver operated. ( you can read his testimony ) He very clearly said that all six chambers of "Oswald's" revolver were emptied with one stroke of the extractor rod.
And he said he had burned gunpowder in the PALM of his hand when he pushed the spent shells from the chambers.
The witnesses at the scene of Tippit's murder ALL reported that the killer had removed one shell at a time from the revolver that the killer had used to shoot J.D.Tippit. The spent shells at the Tippit scene were scattered over a wide area. The S&W that allegedly belonged to Lee Oswald cannot be unloaded in the manner the witnesses described, because the chambers are oversize for the 38 special ammunition that was used, and they expand and stick in the chambers. (Cunningham said he had some difficulty in pushing the spent shells out with the extractor rod...He hammered the rod to the rear with the heel of his hand)
Anybody with the ability to reason can understand that the Killer was NOT using a Smith & Wesson revolver.
And on a final note....Cunningham had burned gunpower in THE PALM of his hand after he extracted the spent shells. Lee Oswald allegedly had a TRACE of nitrates on the BACK of his hand .....
I have zero knowledge of guns. I live in Northern Ireland, although I am originally from Liverpool, Merseyside UK. Could it be that Oswald did indeed empty the six shells and decided to scatter them as he made his way from the scene. Who knows what was going through Oswald's mind seconds after shooting a uniformed officer dead. Small inconsistencies will occure. It's the eye witnesses that nail Oswald. One or two witnesses might be a bit flaky but there's just to many. Can't be explained away by saying they were all mistaken or not capable.
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I have zero knowledge of guns. I live in Northern Ireland, although I am originally from Liverpool, Merseyside UK. Could it be that Oswald did indeed empty the six shells and decided to scatter them as he made his way from the scene. Who knows what was going through Oswald's mind seconds after shooting a uniformed officer dead. Small inconsistencies will occure. It's the eye witnesses that nail Oswald. One or two witnesses might be a bit flaky but there's just to many. Can't be explained away by saying they were all mistaken or not capable.
Could it be that Oswald did indeed empty the six shells and decided to scatter them as he made his way from the scene. ?
NO!...Not if you read the reports of the witnesses who saw the killer leaving the scene. ALL of the witnesses who saw the killer leaving after the murder said that he REMOVED one shell at a time as he walked away.
And I would add....If Lee had held any shells in his hand his PALM would have tested positive for gun powder residue, but only one component of gunpowder ( nitrate) was found on his hand.
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...must have been something. BTW, who were these anti-Castro mercenaries?
All I saw was a motorcade parade ...JFK and Jackie.
The first word of mouth reports that we heard at that time [maybe an hour later] was that the cops were looking for a black guy. I thought that sounded weird. Why would a black shoot a leader that was trying to do something for the black people? Anyway, in following years, it had been revealed that witnesses reported that they saw one or two dark complected guys walking around on the sixth floor...that one of them had a rifle. I seriously doubt that they had seen American Negroes. There are Dealey Plaza pictures of dark complected guys [OK perhaps Cubans] that were never identified. Alpha 66 was said to have been involved. Most of us know who they were.
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All I saw was a motorcade parade ...JFK and Jackie.
The first word of mouth reports that we heard at that time [maybe an hour later] was that the cops were looking for a black guy. I thought that sounded weird. Why would a black shoot a leader that was trying to do something for the black people? Anyway, in following years, it had been revealed that witnesses reported that they saw one or two dark complected guys walking around on the sixth floor...that one of them had a rifle. I seriously doubt that they had seen American Negroes. There are Dealey Plaza pictures of dark complected guys [OK perhaps Cubans] that were never identified. Alpha 66 was said to have been involved. Most of us know who they were.
Yes, I believe the plot originated with the Cubans who hated JFK because their CIA handlers had blamed JFK for the BOP fiasco in which many of their brothers, cousins, and sons had died .... JFK being the CINC did not try to pass the buck ( publicly ) ... He accepted the blame for the fiasco, but in reality he had little control of the CIA. The Cuban's wanted revenge and accepted JFK's acceptance of responsibility for the fiasco, so they started plotting to kill JFK.... Hoover with his vast network of informers learned of the plot, and decided that he would make sure the Cuban's succeeded even if he had to go to his mafia buddies to find a crack shot who would be secretly waiting for the Cubans to open fire.
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So it is NOT accepted by the community that Mrs Paine was CIA affiliated?
There is plenty of evidence.
The way he got shoehorned into that job.
Somethings rotten in Denmark
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I just feel like Texas is full of great shooters
This was an inside job
I'm sure they would rather use local people
than outsource the most critical part of this job
to outsiders. I don't see that.Besides the shooting job was not "professional"
It looks like amateur hour to me.
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So it is NOT accepted by the community that Mrs Paine was CIA affiliated?
There is plenty of evidence.
The way he got shoehorned into that job.
Somethings rotten in Denmark
Ruth Paine was an informer FBI.... Paid to keep an eye on the Oswald's, who Hoover thought were Communist spies.
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Ruth Paine was an informer FBI....
And the evidence for that claim (not based solely on your suspicion) is?
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read my post regarding how LHO was employed.
things do not add up to
"the opportunistic assassin"
but more the setup "patsy"
The proof is there as plain as day.
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And the evidence for that claim (not based solely on your suspicion) is?
You'll have to read the memos....
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She was key to setting up Oswald.
Who is behind her we can't prove. The fact remains
She was key to setting up Oswald.
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She was key to setting up Oswald.
Who is behind her we can't prove. The fact remains
She was key to setting up Oswald.
Ruth Paine admitted being a FBI informer when she testified before LBJ's "Special Blue Ribbon Committee" ...Read her testimony. She testified that she surreptitiously purloined a letter that Lee had written and then called Hosty to come to get the letter...
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Lets for arguments sake assume he did take a shot at walker.
This is where it all comes undone. On one hand they are presenting this like a totally innocent coincidence where they (Ruth Paine) get him the job by chance and good intent but on the other is the walker evidence being revealed after the fact showing him to be an aspiring assassin all along.
So which one is it? You can?t have both.
You wanna talk about getting Dracula a job at the blood bank?
This is real evidence (circumstantial) but undeniably strong as to a wider conspiracy In Dallas and it was provided by the Warren Commission.
The public only knew on the morning of the 19th (Tuesday) the motorcade route and it was depicted as going straight down main street. At this point lets just agree there is confusion over who printed what map when and If the route was changed at all, who approved it? Lets just say If you were a lone assassin you wouldn?t know where to shoot from or when exactly.
From the Evidence you have to charge Ruth Paine with conspiracy to murder don?t you? The rifle is kept at your house? You speak Russian? You rang the TSBD to get Oswald the job yourself?
October 16, 1963: LHO begins work at the TSBD. 5 Weeks.
Does he apply for a dozen jobs all along the motorcade route? No
Who are the ONLY people who might have foreknowledge of the route? The secret service and Officials of the city of Dallas.
Was the route changed? It doesn?t matter. The City of Dallas was ultimately responsible for the route. The secret service don?t plan the route in someone else?s town.
Who did LHO work for? The city of Dallas.
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please read my simple solution post
Its hard to assess evidence when it is being "provided" by the conspirators
The DPD are an obvious part of this triple murder crime
Without the DPD there is no chance for a conspiracy in Dallas
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Lets for arguments sake assume he did take a shot at walker.
This is where it all comes undone. On one hand they are presenting this like a totally innocent coincidence where they (Ruth Paine) get him the job by chance and good intent but on the other is the walker evidence being revealed after the fact showing him to be an aspiring assassin all along.
So which one is it? You can?t have both.
You wanna talk about getting Dracula a job at the blood bank?
This is real evidence (circumstantial) but undeniably strong as to a wider conspiracy In Dallas and it was provided by the Warren Commission.
The public only knew on the morning of the 19th (Tuesday) the motorcade route and it was depicted as going straight down main street. At this point lets just agree there is confusion over who printed what map when and If the route was changed at all, who approved it? Lets just say If you were a lone assassin you wouldn?t know where to shoot from or when exactly.
From the Evidence you have to charge Ruth Paine with conspiracy to murder don?t you? The rifle is kept at your house? You speak Russian? You rang the TSBD to get Oswald the job yourself?
October 16, 1963: LHO begins work at the TSBD. 5 Weeks.
Does he apply for a dozen jobs all along the motorcade route? No
Who are the ONLY people who might have foreknowledge of the route? The secret service and Officials of the city of Dallas.
Was the route changed? It doesn?t matter. The City of Dallas was ultimately responsible for the route. The secret service don?t plan the route in someone else?s town.
Who did LHO work for? The city of Dallas.
Eddie, Do you know what a hoax is?.... By firing a bullet through Walker's window...Neighbors could call the police and report a shot fired...Walker could call and tell the police that someone had tried to kill him.. When in reality he wasn't even in the room at the time...But there was a bullet hole in the window sash to provide mute evidence of Walker's tale.
Lee left the carcano where he thought police dogs would sniff it out....and then it would have been a piece-o- cake for the cops to trace the unusual rifle to Kleins and Oswald.... The cops would have gone to the Oswald's residence and found the false dossier (the blue notebook) that Lee had created, which had a BY photo, photos of Walker's house, and the surrounding area, and the note that Lee had left for Marina that told her what to do if he was arrested.
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I think you are agreeing with me?
IMO the evidence speaks for itself, I dont really need to add an opinion on it
It is simply unbelievable that LHO got this job by chance.
"Oh he was an opportunist"
Or he was setup. What does the evidence suggest?
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please read my simple solution post
Its hard to assess evidence when it is being "provided" by the conspirators
The DPD are an obvious part of this triple murder crime
Without the DPD there is no chance for a conspiracy in Dallas
ELEMENTS in the DPD were guilty of conspiring to murder JFK....Not the entire DPD. And those high ranking elements actually thought the JFK was destroying the US they knew... ( they were segregationists, and they right)
Thus they viewed themselves as patriots...
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Yes of course "elements"
Thankyou for your reply(s)
Also Interesting Walker was on the "right"
JFK was liberal. So it seems LHO was not only a killer
but also a politically confused one! lol
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"elements"
Read this.... https://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,619.msg12629.html#msg12629
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Ruth Paine admitted being a FBI informer when she testified before LBJ's "Special Blue Ribbon Committee" ...Read her testimony. She testified that she surreptitiously purloined a letter that Lee had written and then called Hosty to come to get the letter...
You said she was a paid informer. That is very different to an ordinary citizen passing on information that the FBI might find useful.
What is the evidence for Ruth Paine being a paid FBI informer?
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Just read her WIKI page.
CIA up and down.
public knowledge
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Just read her WIKI page.
CIA up and down.
public knowledge
Show me the evidence Eddie.
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I just think the fact she tried getting other people to get the job for LHO before becoming frustrated and doing it herself shows the rather clumsy way he has been setup.
The odds of it happening the way they say is virtually an impossibility.
For me that is evidence of a setup.
But why CIA? She has family ties to the CIA and speaks Russian.
Why would a person with that background in Texas speak Russian?
Counter intelligence agents as a requirement must speak the language of the people they are trying to influence.
I believe the US government treated him like a foreign agent on his return from the USSR and that Mrs Paine was a counter intelligence agent for the CIA.
I cannot prove she is CIA but I feel I can regarding the setup of LHO.
Who was the head of CIA counter Intelligence in 1963?
James Jesus Angleton
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His basic opinion, which is; That Lee Oswald was a patsy who was framed by a powerful group who conspired to murder the POTUS ...is 100% correct.
Yes it's easy to make such a claim but CTers can't go close to proving it beyond reasonable doubt.
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His basic opinion, which is; That Lee Oswald was a patsy who was framed by a powerful group who conspired to murder the POTUS ...is 100% correct.
What about your claim that Ruth Paine was a paid FBI informer? Did you find any evidence? A payslip? Unusual deposits to her bank account?
Or is that claim of her being a paid informer an unsubstantiated opinion?
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we keep showing you evidence
you keep wanting more (bank accounts,pay slips with FBI on the front?)
read my post above, this is proof she set LHO up and had advanced knowledge.
The assassination was filmed, we can all see it can't have been LHO.
The warren report was a coverup implicating LBJ
The evidence is overwhelming as to a conspiracy
Someone had a rifle down there and shot him through the right temple
It was broadcast live over KLIF radio Dallas within 1.5 hours of the shooting
"He was shot through the right temple from a grassy knoll" LIVE KLIF Dallas.
A friendly reminder that ONE of us ct's are right
his head didn't fall off
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What about your claim that Ruth Paine was a paid FBI informer? Did you find any evidence? A payslip? Unusual deposits to her bank account?
Or is that claim of her being a paid informer an unsubstantiated opinion?
Read her testimony....She admits to spying on the Oswald's and calling the FBI when she found something that she thought the FBI should know.
That's commonly called an informer....And she didn't travel hundreds of miles to bring Marina into her house where she could closely monitor the Oswald's,... at her own expense...
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Ruth Paine
Should have been charged with conspiracy to murder
She got Oswald the job calling the TSBD herself
The murder weapon was kept at her house
She spoke Russian
The only thing stopping her being charged was her word. (apparently that was enough for the murder of a president)
No, The dpd rough up the poor kid giving him a ride to work
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Read her testimony....She admits to spying on the Oswald's and calling the FBI when she found something that she thought the FBI should know.
That's commonly called an informer....And she didn't travel hundreds of miles to bring Marina into her house where she could closely monitor the Oswald's,... at her own expense...
You said
Paid
Where is the evidence?
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You seem to be playing the man not the ball
paid or not what difference does it make?
She is a self confessed FBI informant
You "ask" for proof of it, he provided it
what say you regarding that evidence?
forget about the money
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You said
Paid
Where is the evidence?
You're even more ignorant than I had suspected, if you think any intelligence agency, like the FBI leaves a trail that can be traced to them....
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You're even more ignorant than I had suspected, if you think any intelligence agency, like the FBI leaves a trail that can be traced to them....
So you have no evidence that Ruth Paine was a paid informant.
You should be careful when making unsubstantiated claims against people. Stating that she was a paid informer is a long way from saying she had links to the FBI through people that she knows.
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So you have no evidence that Ruth Paine was a paid informant.
You should be careful when making unsubstantiated claims against people. Stating as he was a paid informer is a long way from saying she had links to the FBI through people she knows.
So you apparently believe that Ruth Paine cut short a vacation so she could rush to New Orleans and spend three days cajoling Marina to leave Lee behind and move back to Dallas to live in her house with her? And all at her own expense....
I've got a nice piece of seashore property in Nevada, I'll sell you at a bargain price, Steve...
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eww
I didn't think this was an "open war" forum
"you, eddie haymaker"
who do you think you are demanding evidence?
where's all your evidence to the contrary?
I know you haven't even read my post's
you obviously dont like to read
Respond to my last post, answer the question.
what say you regarding that evidence?
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eww
I didn't think this was an "open war" forum
"you, eddie haymaker"
who do you think you are demanding evidence?
where's all your evidence to the contrary?
I know you haven't even read my post's
you obviously dont like to read
Respond to my last post, answer the question.
Answer the question
what say you regarding that evidence?
I didn't think this was an "open war" forum
Welcome to the circus we call a forum
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Oh crap
So the only thing we can all agree on is
that JFK got shot.
thats about it?
damn
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So we have proof Mrs Paine went to the FBI regarding LHO?
that is a SHOWSTOPPER
"she had links to the FBI through people that she knows."
ahh yeah (SPOOK)
you have her pinched as a federal informant
that is huge
I am so sorry, we have the evidence to convict Mrs Paine
for conspiracy to murder
Respect Breadman
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So you apparently believe that Ruth Paine cut short a vacation so she could rush to New Orleans and spend three days cajoling Marina to leave Lee behind and move back to Dallas to live in her house with her? And all at her own expense....
I've got a nice piece of seashore property in Nevada, I'll sell you at a bargain price, Steve...
Putting aside Walt's struggle with the truth in which he constantly confuses his own subjective interpretation of events with the facts, here we learn that no good deed goes unpunished. Poor Ruth Paine being kind and charitable to Oswald's family and for the rest of her life is hounded by kooks as some type of master spy behind the assassination. It would be humorous if it wasn't so pathetic. Imagine the plan here. Paine is assisting Oswald's wife and child so that Oswald is free to leave them. That doesn't exactly advance the plot to frame Oswald. If Paine were involved in any plot to frame Oswald she would have confirmed that Oswald owned a rifle, stored it in her garage, hated JFK, was acting suspiciously the night before the assassination and that she saw him carry a long package to work on the morning of the assassination. She did none of those obvious things. Instead cutting her "vacation" short to help them out is deemed sinister. It's laughable.
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Putting aside Walt's struggle with the truth in which he constantly confuses his own subjective interpretation of events with the facts, here we learn that no good deed goes unpunished. Poor Ruth Paine being kind and charitable to Oswald's family and for the rest of her life is hounded by kooks as some type of master spy behind the assassination. It would be humorous if it wasn't so pathetic. Imagine the plan here. Paine is assisting Oswald's wife and child so that Oswald is free to leave them. That doesn't exactly advance the plot to frame Oswald. If Paine were involved in any plot to frame Oswald she would have confirmed that Oswald owned a rifle, stored it in her garage, hated JFK, was acting suspiciously the night before the assassination and that she saw him carry a long package to work on the morning of the assassination. She did none of those obvious things. Instead cutting her "vacation" short to help them out is deemed sinister. It's laughable.
Poor Ruth Paine being kind and charitable to Oswald's family and for the rest of her life is hounded by kooks as some type of master spy behind the assassination.
Cut the hyperbole.... I'm not suggesting that Ruth Paine was "some type of master spy behind the assassination"
But in her own sworn words, she admitted spying on the Oswald's for the FBI.
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If Paine were involved in any plot to frame Oswald she would have confirmed that Oswald owned a rifle, stored it in her garage, hated JFK, was acting suspiciously the night before the assassination and that she saw him carry a long package to work on the morning of the assassination. She did none of those obvious things. Instead cutting her "vacation" short to help them out is deemed sinister. It's laughable.
Thumb1:
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Putting aside Walt's struggle with the truth in which he constantly confuses his own subjective interpretation of events with the facts, here we learn that no good deed goes unpunished. Poor Ruth Paine being kind and charitable to Oswald's family and for the rest of her life is hounded by kooks as some type of master spy behind the assassination. It would be humorous if it wasn't so pathetic. Imagine the plan here. Paine is assisting Oswald's wife and child so that Oswald is free to leave them. That doesn't exactly advance the plot to frame Oswald. If Paine were involved in any plot to frame Oswald she would have confirmed that Oswald owned a rifle, stored it in her garage, hated JFK, was acting suspiciously the night before the assassination and that she saw him carry a long package to work on the morning of the assassination. She did none of those obvious things. Instead cutting her "vacation" short to help them out is deemed sinister. It's laughable.
If Paine were involved in any plot to frame Oswald she would have confirmed that Oswald owned a rifle, stored it in her garage,
I doubt that Ruth was involved in a plot to frame Lee Oswald... She was merely working for Hoover, who thought the Oswald's were Russian spies.
Perhaps you are ignorant to the fact that when Gus Rose asked Ruth Paine who was acting as interpreter for Marina if her husband owned a rifle. Ruth Paine at first attempted to invert Marina's reply and deny that Marina had answered DA (yes) and NOT nyet (no) what Marina had replied to the question....
Rose.."Ask her if her husband owns a rifle."
Marina understood the question that Rose had asked, and was ready with the answer and Marina replied "Da "
Ruth Paine most certainly knew basic words like da and nyet....but she told Rose "no" her husband does not own a rifle.
Marina heard the reply and told Rose in halting English.... "Come....I show"... and headed toward the garage.
A short time later when she had the opportunity to talk to Ruth in Russian, she scolded Ruth and asked..." Why did you tell him nyet (no)? I told you da (yes). Has your knowledge of Russian suddenly failed you ?"
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All I saw was a motorcade parade ...JFK and Jackie.
The first word of mouth reports that we heard at that time [maybe an hour later] was that the cops were looking for a black guy. I thought that sounded weird. Why would a black shoot a leader that was trying to do something for the black people? Anyway, in following years, it had been revealed that witnesses reported that they saw one or two dark complected guys walking around on the sixth floor...that one of them had a rifle. I seriously doubt that they had seen American Negroes. There are Dealey Plaza pictures of dark complected guys [OK perhaps Cubans] that were never identified. Alpha 66 was said to have been involved. Most of us know who they were.
You know, the overwhelming majority of Cuban refugees of the early sixties where and are of Spanish descent and the overwhelming majority of that group are/where Caucasian. To say that it must have been Cubans because of the mistaken belief that Cubans are mostly dark complexed is just being ignorant. The best example of this early group of Cuban refugees are Antonio Veciana and Sylvia Odio. Alpha 66 was indeed involved with the CIA and other US agencies in raids into Cuba but there's zero credible connection between Alpha 66, Oswald and the assassination of JFK, regardless of Veciana's claims. IMO, Veciana is FOS.
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Yes, I believe the plot originated with the Cubans who hated JFK because their CIA handlers had blamed JFK for the BOP fiasco in which many of their brothers, cousins, and sons had died .... JFK being the CINC did not try to pass the buck ( publicly ) ... He accepted the blame for the fiasco, but in reality he had little control of the CIA. The Cuban's wanted revenge and accepted JFK's acceptance of responsibility for the fiasco, so they started plotting to kill JFK.... Hoover with his vast network of informers learned of the plot, and decided that he would make sure the Cuban's succeeded even if he had to go to his mafia buddies to find a crack shot who would be secretly waiting for the Cubans to open fire.
You're so FOS!
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You know, the overwhelming majority of Cuban refugees of the early sixties where and are of Spanish descent and the overwhelming majority of that group are/where Caucasian. To say that it must have been Cubans because of the mistaken belief that Cubans are mostly dark complexed is just being ignorant. The best example of this early group of Cuban refugees are Antonio Veciana and Sylvia Odio. Alpha 66 was indeed involved with the CIA and other US agencies in raids into Cuba but there's zero credible connection between Alpha 66, Oswald and the assassination of JFK, regardless of Veciana's claims. IMO, Veciana is FOS.
Question: What is the evidence that you've seen that the CIA worked with or was involved with Alpha 66 and its raids on Cuba?
I've seen no evidence other than the claims made by Veciana that a man named Maurice Bishop who gave his group help was CIA officer David Atlee Phillips. This after he said for more than 30 years that Bishop was not Phillips.
The documents released so far show several attempts by Veciana to get help from the CIA but that he was turned down.
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You said she was a paid informer. That is very different to an ordinary citizen passing on information that the FBI might find useful.
What is the evidence for Ruth Paine being a paid FBI informer?
Cakebread;
Ruth Paine admitted being a FBI informer when she testified before LBJ's "Special Blue Ribbon Committee" ...Read her testimony. She testified that she surreptitiously purloined a letter that Lee had written and then called Hosty to come to get the letter...
You said she was a paid informer. That is very different to an ordinary citizen passing on information that the FBI might find useful.
What is the evidence for Ruth Paine being a paid FBI informer?
Notice how Cakebread retreats from accusing Paine of being a PAID FBI informant. Next thing he should do is to retreat from the claim Ruth Paine called Hosty to get the letter Oswald was typing in her typewriter. Paine actually testified to having made a handwritten draft of the letter and then thought about calling Hosty.
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You said she was a paid informer. That is very different to an ordinary citizen passing on information that the FBI might find useful.
What is the evidence for Ruth Paine being a paid FBI informer?
Notice how Cakebread retreats from accusing Paine of being a PAID FBI informant. Next thing he should do is to retreat from the claim Ruth Paine called Hosty to get the letter Oswald was typing in her typewriter. Paine actually testified to having made a handwritten draft of the letter and then thought about calling Hosty.
Paine told several versions of how she acquired the letter that Lee wrote to the "Russian Embassy" ( although the letter was addressed to the Russian Embassy, Lee knew that the FBI was reading all of the mail addressed to the embassy. I believe the information in the letter was primarily for the FBI's intelligence files. ) The letter is NOT written in Cyrillic, but Ruth Pain said he used her cyrillic typewrier.
Some accounts say that she simply purloined the hand written rough draft of the letter, which she gave Hosty, while other accounts say she copied a typewritten letter ( written in Russian on her Cyrillic typewriter )
Se page 311 WR or vol XVI CE103 for both the typed and hand written versions of the letter.
You said she was a paid informer. That is very different to an ordinary citizen passing on information that the FBI might find useful.
And I'm not retreating from my idea that Ruth Pain was paid by Hoover to keep tabs on the Oswald's and the FBI provided "reimbursement" for services rendered.....
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Question: What is the evidence that you've seen that the CIA worked with or was involved with Alpha 66 and its raids on Cuba?
I've seen no evidence other than the claims made by Veciana that a man named Maurice Bishop who gave his group help was CIA officer David Atlee Phillips. This after he said for more than 30 years that Bishop was not Phillips.
The documents released so far show several attempts by Veciana to get help from the CIA but that he was turned down.
The scuttlebutt in the South Florida Cuban community for years has been that the CIA helped finance various Cuban groups in the early 60's. On a personal note my wife's uncle used to run guns to Cuba in the early 60's and he was affiliated with Alpha 66. Although he was the quiet type his wife was not. After his death we became very close and she would tell me about how much she wanted her husband to settle down, that there were children that needed him as she feared for his safety. Other people that I know of personally trained for another invasion of Cuba in Louisiana, North Carolina and possibly other states. Since there was an ongoing attempt by the CIA to topple Fidel it's not hard to figure out that these training camps and some of the funding for Cuban action groups were based in South Florida, and the largest CIA base in the US was here in South Florida.
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The scuttlebutt in the South Florida Cuban community for years has been that the CIA helped finance various Cuban groups in the early 60's. On a personal note my wife's uncle used to run guns to Cuba in the early 60's and he was affiliated with Alpha 66. Although he was the quiet type his wife was not. After his death we became very close and she would tell me about how much she wanted her husband to settle down, that there were children that needed him as she feared for his safety. Other people that I know of personally trained for another invasion of Cuba in Louisiana, North Carolina and possibly other states. Since there was an ongoing attempt by the CIA to topple Fidel it's not hard to figure out that these training camps and some of the funding for Cuban action groups were based in South Florida, and the largest CIA base in the US was here in South Florida.
Yes, the CIA did fund/direct and control (or try to) many of these groups. The evidence for that is overwhelming. After the missile crisis, however, they shut down many of these operations in an attempt to control them. Something they had difficulty doing.
But I'm asking specifically about Alpha 66. Tracy Parnell has written extensively on Alpha 66 and the political head of the group Antonio Veciana.
Here's the link to his research: http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-maurice-bishop-story.html
There's very little evidence that I am aware of - and Tracy too - that Alpha 66 was funded/directed by the CIA. Veciana says that a mysterious person named Maurice Bishop gave him and the group help and that, after denying it for 30 years, Bishop was CIA officer David Atlee Phillips. But Veciana also said that the CIA through Bishop/Phillips never gave Alpha 66 any funds at all. They did, he alleged, provided material for some of their operations but there is no evidence - other than his claims - to this (that I've seen). In fact Tracy cites several CIA documents that show that Veciana went to representatives of the agency for help and was turned down.
So, I think the issue of the CIA's support for Alpha 66 is open for discussion.
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Paine told several versions of how she acquired the letter that Lee wrote to the "Russian Embassy" ( although the letter was addressed to the Russian Embassy, Lee knew that the FBI was reading all of the mail addressed to the embassy. I believe the information in the letter was primarily for the FBI's intelligence files. ) The letter is NOT written in Cyrillic, but Ruth Pain said he used her cyrillic typewrier.
Some accounts say that she simply purloined the hand written rough draft of the letter, which she gave Hosty, while other accounts say she copied a typewritten letter ( written in Russian on her Cyrillic typewriter )
Se page 311 WR or vol XVI CE103 for both the typed and hand written versions of the letter.
You said she was a paid informer. That is very different to an ordinary citizen passing on information that the FBI might find useful.
And I'm not retreating from my idea that Ruth Pain was paid by Hoover to keep tabs on the Oswald's and the FBI provided "reimbursement" for services rendered.....
Paine told several versions of how she acquired the letter that Lee wrote to the "Russian Embassy" ( although the letter was addressed to the Russian Embassy, Lee knew that the FBI was reading all of the mail addressed to the embassy. I believe the information in the letter was primarily for the FBI's intelligence files. ) The letter is NOT written in Cyrillic, but Ruth Pain said he used her cyrillic typewrier.
There's only one version I'm familiar with and that's the one she gave to the WC. How would Oswald know his letter would be intercepted by the FBI? That's just wild speculation. Ruth Paine did not say he used her Cyrillic typewriter. More wild BS:
Some accounts say that she simply purloined the hand written rough draft of the letter, which she gave Hosty, while other accounts say she copied a typewritten letter ( written in Russian on her Cyrillic typewriter )
What may those accounts be? And don't tell me to look for them. You make the claims and I think it's your responsibility to cite the source since it's not commonly known material.
And I'm not retreating from my idea that Ruth Pain was paid by Hoover to keep tabs on the Oswald's and the FBI provided "reimbursement" for services rendered.....
You can believe whatever it is you want to believe but it would help your credibility if a valid source was provided.
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The scuttlebutt in the South Florida Cuban community for years has been that the CIA helped finance various Cuban groups in the early 60's. On a personal note my wife's uncle used to run guns to Cuba in the early 60's and he was affiliated with Alpha 66. Although he was the quiet type his wife was not. After his death we became very close and she would tell me about how much she wanted her husband to settle down, that there were children that needed him as she feared for his safety. Other people that I know of personally trained for another invasion of Cuba in Louisiana, North Carolina and possibly other states. Since there was an ongoing attempt by the CIA to topple Fidel it's not hard to figure out that these training camps and some of the funding for Cuban action groups were based in South Florida, and the largest CIA base in the US was here in South Florida.
None of this is news to me Mr Navarro....Most of what you've posted is common knowledge and history.
The most important bit of info that you posted is: "Other people that I know of personally trained for another invasion of Cuba in Louisiana,"
This is at the very core of the murder of JFK.... JFK had been "snake bit" by the BOP fiasco and he ordered that all such clandestine training for another attack on Cuba to be curtailed. And he was taking action to stop the illegal training. (He ordered the ATF (alcohol, tobacco, firearms) to raid a training camp near Mandeville La. in July 1963. ( Lee Oswald had uncovered the secret camp and reported it) Many Cubans and their CIA handlers were arrested and munitions were seized.
J Edgar Hoover sanctioned the illegal camps ( His Mafia associates wanted their casinos and drug manufacturing and warehouses back )
JFK did not inform Hoover that he was going to have the ATF raid the camp until the last minute ( about 1 hour before the raid) when he then ordered Hoover to provide FBI agents in support of the ATF. Needless to say, Hoover was furious at having to support the destruction of an enterprise that he had sanctioned and promised his criminal buddies he was supporting.
That raid was the fertilization of the seed that lead to the murder of JFK.....
P.S. The raid also led to the death of Lee Oswald... Because it didn't take a genius to figure out who the rat was who had tipped JFK about the illegal camp at Mandeville. Hoover knew that Lee was the snitch and he got both JFK and LHO ...
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Well evidence comes in many different forms
but why supply it when your minds are clearly made up
there seems to be 2 separate ideologies shared on this website
we are not about to change each others minds
Why dont you show me how a bullet enters around the third thoracic vertebrae
and reappears at someones throat?
get your partner to point on your back how low that is please
That is more fantastical than any cuban/cia/santa conspiracy one might produce
PROVE THAT TO ME
please provide evidence to your claims
NOTE-please refrain from personal attacks (like how many posts I have)
I am here to discuss this ISSUE, not you personally.
Thankyou.
(https://riversong.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/neck-wound-trajectory.jpg?w=460&h=178)
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Please explain the MBT.
I assume you are a staunch defender of the Warren Report.
So lets hear it.
Thankyou
(http://www.vidiars.com/jfkwatergate/ShirtBackwRuler.jpg)
How does a bullet move from this position to the midde of the throat
without destroying the spinal column?
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I do not spend time researching you - No, sorry.
please forgive me
So what is your position exactly?
Because when you ridicule others for having CT's.
but you don't believe in the WR?
that seems inconsistent
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Paine told several versions of how she acquired the letter that Lee wrote to the "Russian Embassy" ( although the letter was addressed to the Russian Embassy, Lee knew that the FBI was reading all of the mail addressed to the embassy. I believe the information in the letter was primarily for the FBI's intelligence files. ) The letter is NOT written in Cyrillic, but Ruth Pain said he used her cyrillic typewrier.
There's only one version I'm familiar with and that's the one she gave to the WC. How would Oswald know his letter would be intercepted by the FBI? That's just wild speculation. Ruth Paine did not say he used her Cyrillic typewriter. More wild BS:
Some accounts say that she simply purloined the hand written rough draft of the letter, which she gave Hosty, while other accounts say she copied a typewritten letter ( written in Russian on her Cyrillic typewriter )
What may those accounts be? And don't tell me to look for them. You make the claims and I think it's your responsibility to cite the source since it's not commonly known material.
And I'm not retreating from my idea that Ruth Pain was paid by Hoover to keep tabs on the Oswald's and the FBI provided "reimbursement" for services rendered.....
You can believe whatever it is you want to believe but it would help your credibility if a valid source was provided.
I've studied this case for decades, I can't remember where I learned everything... And I'll be blistered if I'm going to try to verify stuff that I know....
If someone asks how I know the sun rises in the east, I'm not going to waste my time in proving the the earth rotates in a counterclockwise direction ( viewed from above the north pole) on a N/S axis as it revolves around the sun.
I know the sun rises in the east.... and I know Lee Oswald did not murder either JFK or J.D.Tippit....
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Eddie
If you are seriously interested in understanding the event a good place to start is here
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams spells out the case against Oswald in a straight forward fashion because, at the end of the day this was a straight forward crime. If you spend as little as a couple of hours (spread over a few days if necessary) reading McAdams' work it will be invaluable in helping you see the evidence from the BS.
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while it is oh so easy to poke holes in others theories
I ask you for your own idea's and you apparently have none
Only more of the same patronising rhetoric
no thanks - I can get that from the youtube comments section
you can't even choose a side or let your position be known
Hey I've got some viewing advice for you
the zapruder film - you should watch it
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while it is oh so easy to poke holes in others theories
I ask you for your own idea's and you apparently have none
Only more of the same patronising rhetoric
no thanks - I can get that from the youtube comments section
you can't even choose a side or let your position be known
Thankyou
Eddie....Who are you posting to? Perhaps you can copy and paste the subject that you're replying to and then post it in bold above your reply...
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Well, both of those bullies, they obviously work together to
"shout people down"
But why bother breadman
This is an ideological battle and one I do not wish to join
no one cares about the truth anymore it seems
its your tribe against mine
go ahead, Believe LHO did it alone
Its just a shortcut to thinking for yourself
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Well, both of those bullies, they seem to all jump on don't they?
But why bother breadman
This is an ideological battle and one I do not wish to join
no one cares about the truth anymore it seems
its your tribe against mine
eww
no one cares about the truth anymore it seems
First step.... What is the truth? ( regarding the coup d e'tat ) It's certainly NOT what the government controlled schools are teaching.
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A-HA
No, I actually don't
that is full of fiction as stated
perhaps read the whole post?
(warning) your head may explode
Please read the part where the totally innocent "poor Mrs Paine"
gets a budding assassin a job at the TSBD totally by chance 5 WEEKS
before the murder please address this for me.
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So you are attacking me again
you just can't help it can you?
you're going through my Quora posts? thats weird
over 50,000 views and
the only thing you come back with is, the site is not aggressive enough for you?
you guys are maniacs you know this right?
you guys are animals...
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So you are attacking me again
you just can't help it can you?
you're going through my Quora posts? thats weird
over 50,000 views and
the only thing you come back with is, the site is not aggressive enough for you?
you guys are maniacs you know this right?
you guys are animals...
You have a very low threshold for what you think constitutes a personal attack.
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You keep talking about how qualified you are
So, what is your position exactly?
You have failed to even respond to 1 question I have put to you
regarding this crime
BTW did you check me out on fb too?
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I know the sun rises in the east.... and I know Lee Oswald did not murder either JFK or J.D.Tippit....
You are welcome to your opinions.
However, something that CTers seem reluctant to mention is that Oswald was the only man on the planet who was positively identified as being on the scene during both murders.
Erm..
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You have a very low threshold for what you think constitutes a personal attack.
Sluggo seems a lot like this guy Keyvan what's-his-face.
One-and-the-same?
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I agree with you. that is true however we all saw
JFK get shot through his right temple
making him being the lone assassin an impossibility
It was broadcast live on KLIF Dallas as clear as day
"shot through the right temple from a grassy knoll"
reported live from parkland
please listen to it on youtube
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This case resonates a tad with the infamous Jack the Ripper case. The murderer in London who terrorised women in the Whitechapel area in 1888.
Over 200 books were written. Companies run Ripper days in London.The attraction is that the Killer was never caught. Researches even have their own description - Ripperologists.
The attraction for the JFK case is the alleged killer LHO never made it to trial so all and sundry can indulge themselves as latter day Sherlocks.
I could nominate a poster as a Sherlock impersonator...3 guesses..
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wow - ok great Mark
we actually agree on all that
So did LHO fire upon Kennedy with malice?
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I agree with you. that is true however we all saw
JFK get shot through his right temple
making him being the lone assassin an impossibility
It was broadcast live on KLIF Dallas as clear as day
"shot through the right temple from a grassy knoll"
reported live from parkland
please listen to it on youtube
I say he was shot from behind...so how does your description of "all" come into it..
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wow - ok great Mark
we actually agree on all that
So did LHO fire upon Kennedy with malice?
Nah, just with delusions of grandeur.
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oh great, you guys seem to have the answers
perhaps you can explain how a bullet enters the third thoracic
and exits the throat.
please show me how.
or I guess you can just get nasty
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read my post regarding how LHO was employed.
things do not add up to
"the opportunistic assassin"
but more the setup "patsy"
The proof is there as plain as day.
Except that there isn't any clear proof whatsoever other than a few uncorroborated incidents. As opposed to reams of solid evidence, eye witnesses included against Oswald.
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Lets for arguments sake assume he did take a shot at walker.
This is where it all comes undone. On one hand they are presenting this like a totally innocent coincidence where they get him the job by chance and good intent but on the other is the walker evidence being revealed after the fact showing him to be an aspiring assassin all along.
So which one is it? You can?t have both.
Oh and BTW the route was changed too leading up to the visit.
You wanna talk about getting Dracula a job at the blood bank?
This is real evidence (circumstantial) but undeniably strong as to a wider conspiracy In Dallas and it was provided by the Warren Commission.
The public only knew on the morning of the 19th (Tuesday) the motorcade route and it was depicted as going straight down main street. At this point lets just agree there is confusion over who printed what map when and If the route was changed at all, who approved it? Lets just say If you were a lone assassin you wouldn?t know where to shoot from or when exactly.
From the Evidence you have to charge Ruth Paine with conspiracy to murder don?t you? The rifle is kept at your house? You speak Russian? She rang to enquire about the job herself.
October 16, 1963: LHO begins work at the TSBD. 5 Weeks.
Does he apply for a dozen jobs all along the motorcade route? No
Who are the ONLY people who might have foreknowledge of the route? The secret service, JFK administration and Officials of the city of Dallas.
Was the route changed? It doesn?t matter. The City of Dallas was ultimately responsible for the route. The secret service don?t plan the route in someone else?s town.
Who did LHO work for? The city of Dallas.
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The opening post is an entertaining read.
But to claim " Two massive things went wrong...Oswald wasn't killed...and...Zapruder filmed the event"
Zapruder filmed the event...now come on, are you suggesting the conspirators didn't expect or think somebody would film the event...I mean..!!..you lost a bit of credibility right there.
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please walk me through the SBT
not my own post
thanks but, I have read it
you should read the entire post
:D :D :D :D :D
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No, ok how bout this
The US intelligence agencies would have had good reason to know who LHO was well before 1963. As soon as he was repatriated to the US he would have had to be closely watched on some level surely for some years. For all intents and purposes he could be a foreign agent or acting in the interests of. They don't just let cold war traitors come back and live freely.
So If that surveillance were to be necessary who might carry that out? Probably CIA counter intelligence. The catch with CI is you must speak the language of those you wish to coerce.
To think its a coincidence a returning traitor killed JFK.
Come on now.
The intelligence community in the US knew who he was in 1961.
not sold? ask yourself this.
How many ex-servicemen do you think might defect to Russia and then ask to
come home and it gets granted, in lets say in 1 year? or ten years? or ever?
and nobody knew who he was? Man GTFO that is simply unbelievable
How dumb do you think your intelligence is? huh? ::) ::) ::) ::)
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Yes, the CIA did fund/direct and control (or try to) many of these groups. The evidence for that is overwhelming. After the missile crisis, however, they shut down many of these operations in an attempt to control them. Something they had difficulty doing.
But I'm asking specifically about Alpha 66. Tracy Parnell has written extensively on Alpha 66 and the political head of the group Antonio Veciana.
Here's the link to his research: http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/05/the-maurice-bishop-story.html
There's very little evidence that I am aware of - and Tracy too - that Alpha 66 was funded/directed by the CIA. Veciana says that a mysterious person named Maurice Bishop gave him and the group help and that, after denying it for 30 years, Bishop was CIA officer David Atlee Phillips. But Veciana also said that the CIA through Bishop/Phillips never gave Alpha 66 any funds at all. They did, he alleged, provided material for some of their operations but there is no evidence - other than his claims - to this (that I've seen). In fact Tracy cites several CIA documents that show that Veciana went to representatives of the agency for help and was turned down.
So, I think the issue of the CIA's support for Alpha 66 is open for discussion.
Ask Tracy if he has researched the unification of II Frente, Alpha 66 and M.R.P in 1963 and the formation of Plan Omega and how raids into Cuba were carried out. I would be willing to accept that there was no overt support for these groups by the CIA but covert support is another story.
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None of this is news to me Mr Navarro....Most of what you've posted is common knowledge and history.
The most important bit of info that you posted is: "Other people that I know of personally trained for another invasion of Cuba in Louisiana,"
This is at the very core of the murder of JFK.... JFK had been "snake bit" by the BOP fiasco and he ordered that all such clandestine training for another attack on Cuba to be curtailed. And he was taking action to stop the illegal training. (He ordered the ATF (alcohol, tobacco, firearms) to raid a training camp near Mandeville La. in July 1963. ( Lee Oswald had uncovered the secret camp and reported it) Many Cubans and their CIA handlers were arrested and munitions were seized.
J Edgar Hoover sanctioned the illegal camps ( His Mafia associates wanted their casinos and drug manufacturing and warehouses back )
JFK did not inform Hoover that he was going to have the ATF raid the camp until the last minute ( about 1 hour before the raid) when he then ordered Hoover to provide FBI agents in support of the ATF. Needless to say, Hoover was furious at having to support the destruction of an enterprise that he had sanctioned and promised his criminal buddies he was supporting.
That raid was the fertilization of the seed that lead to the murder of JFK.....
P.S. The raid also led to the death of Lee Oswald... Because it didn't take a genius to figure out who the rat was who had tipped JFK about the illegal camp at Mandeville. Hoover knew that Lee was the snitch and he got both JFK and LHO ...
It appears that super kook Jim Garrison has made a significant impact on you. I would be the first to acknowlege that Hoover was no angel but to accuse him of such a dirty deed is simply outrageous.
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No, ok how bout this
The US intelligence agencies would have had good reason to know who LHO was well before 1963. As soon as he was repatriated to the US he would have had to be closely watched on some level surely for some years. For all intents and purposes he could be a foreign agent or acting in the interests of. They don't just let cold war traitors come back and live freely.
So If that surveillance were to be necessary who might carry that out? Probably CIA counter intelligence. The catch with CI is you must speak the language of those you wish to coerce.
To think its a coincidence a returning traitor killed JFK.
Come on now.
The intelligence community in the US knew who he was in 1961.
not sold? ask yourself this.
How many ex-servicemen do you think might defect to Russia and then ask to
come home and it gets granted, in lets say in 1 year? or ten years? or ever?
and nobody knew who he was? Man GTFO that is simply unbelievable
How dumb do you think your intelligence is? huh? ::) ::) ::) ::)
How many ex-servicemen do you think might defect to Russia and then ask to come home and it gets granted, in lets say in 1 year? or ten years? or ever?
How many true traitors would receive a new draft card after defecting to a country from which he could not be drafted? And after declaring that his allegiance was to a foreign nation?
Do you believe the Selective Service board routinely notified turncoat servicemen in a foreign country, that they were still qualified to be inducted as an A-1 candidate. And Did they sign the draft card .... "Gut Schieffer" ( Good Mariner )
As the draft card that Lee received in Minsk in February of 1960 was signed. And yes, you can look for yourself and see the agency was congratulating him on his success at being accepted by the Soviets...."Good Marine"
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It appears that super kook Jim Garrison has made a significant impact on you. I would be the first to acknowlege that Hoover was no angel but to accuse him of such a dirty deed is simply outrageous.
I would be the first to acknowlege that Hoover was no angel but to accuse him of such a dirty deed is simply outrageous.
I understand.... Not everybody has the fortitude to face a horrendous, abhorrent, reality....
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I would be the first to acknowlege that Hoover was no angel but to accuse him of such a dirty deed is simply outrageous.
I understand.... Not everybody has the fortitude to face a horrendous, abhorrent, reality....
But Walt "Mr. T" Cakebread is fighting those evil, dark forces...by exposing them on this forum from inside a bunker somewhere in Idaho. Get some sun. One of the symptoms of Vitamin D deficiency is impaired cognitive judgement.
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But Walt "Mr. T" Cakebread is fighting those evil, dark forces...by exposing them on this forum from inside a bunker somewhere in Idaho. Get some sun. One of the symptoms of Vitamin D deficiency is impaired cognitive judgement.
Idaho? Nice State....but i'm not there....
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Nebraska, last time I checked...
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A simple question, Mr Haymaker, did you, and/or anyone you know, actually hear the alluded to KLIF Radio Broadcast "As It Happened" live? As the events occurred?
Then VicePresident LyndonBainesJohnson(1908-1973), became US President on 11/22/'63, after the death by assassination of then US President JohnFitzgeraldKennedySr. After serving as US President for the remainder of USP JFK's term ending on 01/20/'65, he was elected USP in '64 for his 01/20/'65 to 01/20/'69 term, and did not seek re-election in '68 for the 01/20/69 to 01/20/73 term. He had served as VicePresident for almost 3 years, from 01/20/'61 until 11/22/'63. Prior to becoming VicePresident he was the US Senate MajorityLeader, being 1 of 2 US Senators representing Texas, the other being RalphWebsterYarborough. Prior to being elected to the US Senate in 1948 to take office in Jan '49, he had been an elected US Congressman for about 10 years, and had served in the US Navy during the WW2.
In late 1963, "small town" Dallas, TX had an approximate population of 675,000+, and about 32 miles west is FortWorth, TX, with a late '63 population of approximately 375,000+. And, in between Dallas and FortWorth are the towns of Irving, TX, spelled I-R-V-I-N-G, along with GrandPrairie, TX, as well as Arlington, TX. In late '63, Irving, GrandPrairie, and Arlington had a combined population of approximately 125,000+. Other smaller towns nearby "small town" Dallas, TX, include places like UniversityPark, TX, Carrollton, TX, Grapevine, TX, Lewisville, TX, Plano, TX, Garland, TX, Richardson, TX, and Mesquite, TX, just to name a few that also had a combined approximate population of 125,000+ in late '63.
;)
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when I say "small town" what do I mean?
The men running the city of Dallas and the state of Texas were a small
circle in 1963.These people all knew each other.
How can you deny that the city of Dallas was involved in every part of this crime?
deeply involved, not my opinion.
you are running the population numbers of Texas.
Is that an argument?
"Mr Haymaker, did you, and/or anyone you know, actually hear the alluded to KLIF Radio Broadcast "As It Happened" live? As the events occurred?"
You can't be serious? Why dont you address the evidence instead of asking more questions? what say you regarding the evidence ?
(JFK shot through the RIGHT TEMPLE around 1.43 pm.)
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"after declaring that his allegiance was to a foreign nation? "
You see counter intelligence would have HAD to be the department dealing with LHO.
as he was (for all intent and purpose) a foreign agent
who ran CI for the CIA in 1961-63?
James Jesus Angleton
H.R. Haldeman "After Kennedy was killed, the CIA launched a fantastic cover-up. The CIA literally erased any connection between Kennedy's assassination and the CIA... in fact, Counter intelligence Chief James Angleton of the CIA called Bill Sullivan of the FBI and rehearsed the questions and answers they would give to the Warren Commission investigators."
So LHO is painted as a loser and a nobody.So he works for 1 month at the TSBD working hard and from all reports was quite good at the job learning very quickly. You see nobody knew the motorcade route up until the the 19th of November 1963. If the route goes elsewhere we never hear of LHO. right?
He wasn't there staking out a murder
He was busy filling orders at his job.He was there for the work you see. (no one disputes this, even the WC admits he had no time to plan) His wife just had a new baby.The only plans he was making was what to do with the children this weekend and don't forget June's new shoe's.
Gerald ford describes him as insane and a nut.Is this the work of a lone nut assassin? He was minding his own business working hard for a month in a new job and HELLO JFK is going to drive past in 2 days time. Here he is trying to change his ways (walker attempt) and they drive the President right by his window jeez. A guy just can't get a break can he? It seems to be almost thrust upon him doesn't it?
The lone nut THEORY does not hold water for a minute.
He could lean out the window, take a few shots, put his rifle away and keep stacking boxes.
A little too convenient? It all seems so well planned.
and it was, just not by him.
It is so ridiculous. I can't help but LMAO.
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when I say "small town" what do I mean?
The men running the city of Dallas and the state of Texas were a small
circle in 1963.These people all knew each other.
How can you deny that the city of Dallas was involved in every part of this crime?
deeply involved, not my opinion.
you are running the population numbers of Texas.
Is that an argument?
"Mr Haymaker, did you, and/or anyone you know, actually hear the alluded to KLIF Radio Broadcast "As It Happened" live? As the events occurred?"
You can't be serious? Why dont you address the evidence instead of asking more questions? what say you regarding the evidence ?
(JFK shot through the RIGHT TEMPLE around 1.43 pm.)
So, I'll take that as a no as your answer to the only question I had then ever asked of you!
You referenced "small town", and I illustrated population numbers. Your definitions of word meanings are yours, not mine!
It appears as though it is you in search of an argument!
Whatever it is that I can't be serious about, I will let your declarations speak for themselves.
I see no reason why I need to address any evidence. If because of your declarations, I don't think so.
Whatever is meant by your statement,"(JFK shot through the RIGHT TEMPLE around 1.43 pm. )" is beyond my understanding!
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So, I'll take that as a no as your answer to the only question I had then ever asked of you!
You referenced "small town", and I illustrated population numbers. Your definitions of word meanings are yours, not mine!
It appears as though it is you in search of an argument!
Whatever it is that I can't be serious about, I will let your declarations speak for themselves.
I see no reason why I need to address any evidence. If because of your declarations, I don't think so.
Whatever is meant by your statement,"(JFK shot through the RIGHT TEMPLE around 1.43 pm. )" is beyond my understanding!
Is English your first language?
I think you misunderstand much of my post
you referenced the KLIF broadcast and I assumed you actually listened to it
calm down sparky, you've made a good argument
well done
;)
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when I say "small town" what do I mean?
The men running the city of Dallas and the state of Texas were a small
circle in 1963.These people all knew each other.
How can you deny that the city of Dallas was involved in every part of this crime?
deeply involved, not my opinion.
you are running the population numbers of Texas.
Is that an argument?
"Mr Haymaker, did you, and/or anyone you know, actually hear the alluded to KLIF Radio Broadcast "As It Happened" live? As the events occurred?"
You can't be serious? Why dont you address the evidence instead of asking more questions? what say you regarding the evidence ?
(JFK shot through the RIGHT TEMPLE around 1.43 pm.)
So, I'll take that as a no as your answer to the only question I had then ever asked of you!
You referenced "small town", and I illustrated population numbers. Your definitions of word meanings are yours, not mine!
It appears as though it is you in search of an argument!
Whatever it is that I can't be serious about, I will let your declarations speak for themselves.
I see no reason why I need to address any evidence. If because of your declarations, I don't think so.
Whatever is meant by your statement,"(JFK shot through the RIGHT TEMPLE around 1.43 pm. )" is beyond my understanding!
Is English your first language?
I think you misunderstand much of my post
you referenced the KLIF broadcast and I assumed you actually listened to it
calm down sparky, you've made a good argument
well done
;)
EH: Is English your first language?
LT: Actually, it is East Texlish...
EH: I think you misunderstand much of my post
LT: Maybe, or not...
EH:you referenced the KLIF broadcast and I assumed you actually listened to it
LT: Sure did, on YouTube, so absolutely not a "live broadcast" when listened to. Although I started hearing actual "broadcast radio reports" no later than 12:45pm CST on 11/22/'63, as I recall...
EH: calm down sparky, you've made a good argument
LT: My "spark" is long gone, and not trying to argue, but just comprehend the whys and hows of your expressed conclusions...
EH: well done
LT: More likely overcooked...
Walk:
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Well done
;D ;D ;D ;D
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I think that CT's really don't fully 100% think Oswald didn't kill Tippit. They'll never admit it but they have an extremely flimsy defence.
I don't think he killed JDT
But I think he COULD have
It was possible
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He did not fire the final shot at JFK
the WR is a cover up
these are the only 2 things I am sure about 100%
the rest is meh maybe...
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Eddie, Do you know what a hoax is?.... By firing a bullet through Walker's window...Neighbors could call the police and report a shot fired...Walker could call and tell the police that someone had tried to kill him.. When in reality he wasn't even in the room at the time...But there was a bullet hole in the window sash to provide mute evidence of Walker's tale.
Lee left the carcano where he thought police dogs would sniff it out....and then it would have been a piece-o- cake for the cops to trace the unusual rifle to Kleins and Oswald.... The cops would have gone to the Oswald's residence and found the false dossier (the blue notebook) that Lee had created, which had a BY photo, photos of Walker's house, and the surrounding area, and the note that Lee had left for Marina that told her what to do if he was arrested.
This is what Walker was talking about....
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The lone nut THEORY does not hold water for a minute.
But theories about badgman, big oil, CIA, FBI, space aliens, the DPD etc. all these theories do?