http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/pdf/Dallas-Fort-Worth-Freeways-book-05-20140803.pdfSteve, that was very helpful... Here's a part of that article... Thanks!
http://dallasfreeways.com/dfwfreeways/pdf/Dallas-Fort-Worth-Freeways-book-05-20140803.pdf
If that is SA Clint Hill in the Hankins photo, I'll eat a bug. Whoever that is atop the Limo has at least 25 lbs on Hill. Look at the size of the head/face.
If that is SA Clint Hill in the Hankins photo, I'll eat a bug.
Comparatively these Clint's in the head/face area are about the same size.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/6b0u72ql7/clint_hillz.gif)
JohnM
If that is SA Clint Hill in the Hankins photo, I'll eat a bug. Whoever that is atop the Limo has at least 25 lbs on Hill. Look at the size of the head/face.It's Hill's stunt double...!
Why would he have taken his sun glasses off between photos?
Comparatively these Clint's in the head/face area are about the same size.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/6b0u72ql7/clint_hillz.gif)
JohnM
He stated they flew off as the limo was pressing 75 mph somewhere on the Stemmons Freeway. Probably swept up by street cleaners and a valuable momento of the day is well covered in a landfill somewhere.
And the Double Chin
The size of the head may seem the same, but the size of the car is different. Apples and oranges.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/3qybabiy3/clint_hilll.jpg)
JohnM
(https://s15.postimg.cc/3qybabiy3/clint_hilll.jpg)
JohnM
Drop your own head Downward and see what you get below the chin. Both the individuals atop the Limo have their Heads a LEVEL position. The Double Chin and Receding Hairline of the one guy make this a Slam Dunk. He ain't SA Clint Hill. Clint Hill is doing just as SA Youngblood did with LBJ. Hill is laying atop/protecting Jackie as he was assigned to do. As Jackie said when she did her "Camelot" interview 1 week following the assassination, "Then Clint Hill, he loved us, he was the first man in the car.......... WE ALL LAY DOWN in the car. I believe what she is describing occurred at the same time the Officer Chaney/Lead Car Event happened. The Lead Car and the JFK Limo came to a STOP during this time period.
John, looks like he was well prepared for work that day, wearing a bullet-proof vest. I know they are uncomfortable, but why didn't JFK get one? Why didn't Clint jump to help until near simultaneously with the head shot? The privacy window in the limo had been removed for better protection. Why didn't Kellerman go through that opening, when he knew much earlier something was happening? Why is he and Greer twice looking back as the car slows/stops? Was the car slowed because Elm bends to the right and would make it much more difficult to hit JFK? Why did every single SS testify the car was moving at "12-15 miles per hour"? Were they all watching the speedometer instead of the President? Why did Roberts recall Ready when he was in the process of protecting the President? Why was Roberts speaking on the radio at Z255 to a man on the DalTex firescape? Roberts was asked about his transmissions, but failed to mention this one. Why was Douglas Dillon, son of Clarence Dillon, who along with Samuel Bush, were widely considered to be "The Merchants of Death", selected to be Treasury Secretary, and thus boss of the SS? I'm sure there is more.What do we know about Roberts speaking on the radio at Z255 to a man on the DalTex fire escape? Was that something testified to, or found recorded somewhere? And what do we know about the person on the DalTex fire escape?
(https://i.imgur.com/MY0bahp.gif)
Drop your own head Downward and see what you get below the chin. Both the individuals atop the Limo have their Heads a LEVEL position. The Double Chin and Receding Hairline of the one guy make this a Slam Dunk. He ain't SA Clint Hill. Clint Hill is doing just as SA Youngblood did with LBJ. Hill is laying atop/protecting Jackie as he was assigned to do. As Jackie said when she did her "Camelot" interview 1 week following the assassination, "Then Clint Hill, he loved us, he was the first man in the car.......... WE ALL LAY DOWN in the car. I believe what she is describing occurred at the same time the Officer Chaney/Lead Car Event happened. The Lead Car and the JFK Limo came to a STOP during this time period.
Both the individuals atop the Limo have their Heads a LEVEL position.
What do we know about Roberts speaking on the radio at Z255 to a man on the DalTex fire escape? Was that something testified to, or found recorded somewhere? And what do we know about the person on the DalTex fire escape?
No Royell, shouting out at the top of your lungs that the Clint Hill heads are "LEVEL" won't make it so, we see Clint shift between looking straight ahead and then down more towards the horror in the back seat, what compounds Hill's double chin is the fact that he's also leaning back. The sunlight flaring off the top of Clint's head simply gives the appearance of a larger area, look at the same specular highlight as seen on the edge of the front windscreen and we see the same effect. And finally look at the billowing jacket over Hill's left shoulder and the way that the random folds and resulting shadows line up.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/6f7iqbpmz/hill_billow_jacket.gif)
Btw photo analysis has never been your forte, yet you persist and keep thinking up new and improved ways to make you look the Fool, why?
JohnM
The hairline being referred to is in reference to the left temple region going Back toward the rear of the head. Not the Top of the head. The more you goof with the images the clearer the difference between the 2 individuals is made apparent. Even the Noses are Not the same shape. The guy with the double chin has more of a rounded/bulb nose vs Hill's Sharp Nose. And try and stick to the subject. Your insults do nothing to further the discussion.
Mr. HUDSON - There were two of them that wasn't too far apart right throught here - them signs was - one was right along in here and the other one was either further up, I guess. It's not in that picture - I don't believe. Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved the R.L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign.When were the signs moved? Yesterday...three years ago???
Mr. LIEBELER - They have? They have moved it?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - How much time do you think passed from the time the first shot was fired untill the second shot was fired, can you make any estimate about that?Hudson meant to say seconds between shots I'm sure...
Mr. HUDSON - Oh, probably 2 minutes.
Mr. LIEBELER - As much as 2 minutes?
Mr. HUDSON - It might not have been that long.
So what are you trying to posit? That Hill jumped out and a look alike second replaced him? For what purpose? The second pic shows Hill without the sunglasses which he states were blown off as the limo pegged 75 mph on Stemmons Freeway. There were plenty of folks lined up along Stemmons (with accompanying photos) and none reported the car stopped??
Meanwhile gents ...back to the TOPIC... a groundskeeper had testified that the signs were in fact moved around. When were the signs moved? Yesterday...three years ago???I wonder if they moved or removed any signs any time before the assassination... I wonder just what Hudson meant here...
If it was years before...why bring it up?Hudson meant to say seconds between shots I'm sure...
Another ba-bam sound?
Why didn't counsel clarify some of Mr Hudson's testimony?
Answer...He didn't really want to.
I think Hill took the position he was protecting both. Jackie was wrong, he didnt lay on them, they were already down. Then again, Jackie never remembered climbing out on the trunk to grab a piece of JFKs skull. Its conceivable the Curry car and limo stopped briefly side by side under the security of the overpass as word was quickly passed to Curry that JFK was indeed hit by the fire. Im not sure any of the film or pictures show that very brief stoppage.
If you agree that there probably was a JFK Limo stoppage, what sense would it make for SA Hill to remain precariously perched spread eagle atop the rear of the limo? This stoppage would have been the perfect opportunity for him to get closer to the person he was assigned to protect = Jackie INSIDE the car. SS Chief Rowley during his WC testimony was reluctant to even admit as to the SA Hickey AR-15 that was locked and loaded on the floorboard of the Queen Mary. Rowley was questioned as to other weapons being on hand and Rowley wouldn't give that info up. His WC Q/A went Off-The-Record several times. These guys reveal Nothing. SA Hill for 54+ years has been maintaining this same SS dictum. He will not spill SS Protocol.
I would submit no room for him on the back seat as JFK was laid down and Jackie was there.
Until we know what transpired from the time the Limo turned onto Elm St until it arrived at Parkland, this case will remain unsolved.
Don't forget the floorboard of the Limo. When the Limo arrived at Parkland Hospital, JFK was difficult to extract due to his feet being tangled underneath a jump seat in front of him. There remain many unresolved details concerning this case. Until we know what transpired from the time the Limo turned onto Elm St until it arrived at Parkland, this case will remain unsolved.
Royell, what do you posit happened then in that 10 minute span? I know someone was quering if it was Hill that was on the back of the limo as it arrived at Parkland! I mean you have video of the whole sequence except for under bridge and then immediately after bridge at a knot of folks at the Stemmons turnoff in a haunting clip that shows boys waving and such in this knot, not knowing anything but observing the limo speeding by without the President seen in it and everyone in a state of frenzy in the cars. If anyone can post that clip after the tunnel, appreciated.
[...] For Chaney to pull up alongside the passenger side of the Lead Car and talk with the driver/Chief Curry as to the condition of JFK, both the Lead Car and Chaney had to of been at a Dead Stop.How did you come to this conclusion?
This means the JFK Limo was likewise at a Dead Stop.And how did you come to this conclusion? Neither assertion makes sense.
If you agree that there probably was a JFK Limo stoppage ...
How did you come to this conclusion?
And how did you come to this conclusion? Neither assertion makes sense.
You must be unfamiliar with the WC Testimony involving the Lead Car and Chaney. It cites Chaney pulling up on the passenger side of the Limo.
How fast/MPH do you believe the Lead Car & the JFK Limo were traveling as they were photographed approaching the Stemmons FWY On-Ramp? Do you believe that Officer Chaney & Chief Curry could carry on a conversation regarding the physical condition of JFK while both the Lead Car and Chaney's Loud Motorcycle were speeding/racing to Parkland Hospital?
I'm familiar with the goings on ahead of the limo. I'm just not familiar with your concepts of physical dynamics. You're assuming that the only option is between "stopped" and "speeding/racing." That's simply a false dilemma. It could be moving at any speed in between the two. BTW, if you pay attention to the Zapruder film, you'll see the limousine rapidly catching up to the lead car. In photos taken of the motorcade on the West side of the triple overpass, the limo has already passed the lead car, and the Queen Mary is about drive by. The lead car doesn't seem to be going particularly fast at that point.
(https://i0.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/15f.-West-Of-The-Triple-Underpass-JFKs-Car-Approaches-Stemmons-Freeway-Ramp.jpg)
I'm familiar with the goings on ahead of the limo. I'm just not familiar with your concepts of physical dynamics. You're assuming that the only option is between "stopped" and "speeding/racing." That's simply a false dilemma. It could be moving at any speed in between the two. BTW, if you pay attention to the Zapruder film, you'll see the limousine rapidly catching up to the lead car. In photos taken of the motorcade on the West side of the triple overpass, the limo has already passed the lead car, and the Queen Mary is about drive by. The lead car doesn't seem to be going particularly fast at that point.
(https://i0.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/15f.-West-Of-The-Triple-Underpass-JFKs-Car-Approaches-Stemmons-Freeway-Ramp.jpg)
You are obviously unfamiliar with the WC Testimony of Chief Curry, SA Sorrels, and SA Lawson. All of these law enforcement individuals were inside the Lead Car. Please bone up on the Officer Chaney/ Lead Car Event and the WC testimony of these 3 individuals. Once you become knowledgeable regarding all of this, we can engage in an enlightening discussion. Your current unfamiliarity in these areas renders a meaningful discussion difficult if not impossible.
Piecing together what happened.Show your proof that Zapruder stopped filming. You are only assuming he did. He never said that he stopped filming.
Muchmore captures the leading bikes as they turn onto Houston, 3 bikes followed by 2 more bikes, then like Zapruder she realized that Kennedy's Limo was not directly behind and stops filming, in the interim we miss Curry's car then when she starts again we see Kennedy's Limo with the 4 escort motorbikes.
JohnM
Show your proof that Zapruder stopped filming. You are only assuming he did. He never said that he stopped filming.
The proof is the fact that in the Zapruder film at frame Z133 we see the typical lightening of the frame which only occurs when a film is stopped and restarted. Anyway the fact that Muchmore did the same thing only highlights the fact that you don't waste 8mm film when you only have bugger all.Rubbish. There is very little over exposure there at all. Fail Mytton. Note the difference in the light color of the road way in Z132, and compare same to Z133, which according to Mytton is lighter, because of that's when Zapruder allegedly restarted the camera.
Here are the first two Zapruder frames centered on the blue car after Zapruder started filming, with the initial frame being lighter.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/w81ygscjf/zapstart.gif)
Btw I don't want to waste any more bandwidth with your bait and switch, either deal with the evidence as presented or go and make up some more backyard photo claims.
JohnM
So it appears as if the Lead Car and Chaney might have conversed then after the tunnel. It does not appear from the clips that the limo slowed or stopped at all, unsurprising given the circumstances. I guess if the chief's car stops as a motorcycle patrolman, you stop too to see what he needs. I understand that shortly after he climbed to the back of the limo, Hill gave a thumbs down signal to the Queen Mary meaning that the president was in very bad shape.
We know what happened, Oswald's rifle was directly linked to the recovered shells.
All the retrieved substantially sized fragments were directly linked to Oswald's rifle.
Oswald's rifle was directly linked to Lee Harvey Oswald.
Harvey Oswald was directly linked to the Sniper's Nest.
Rubbish. There is very little over exposure there at all. Fail Mytton. Note the difference in the light color of the road way in Z132, and compare same to Z133, which according to Mytton is lighter, because of that's when Zapruder allegedly restarted the camera.
(https://s19.postimg.cc/jdjai178v/z132.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jdjai178v/)
(https://s19.postimg.cc/f4ekfvbpb/z133.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/f4ekfvbpb/)
If you want to see frame overexposure compare Frame Z001 to Z002.
Please yourself, but don't make up things which you wish happened, but didn't.
It is you who should deal with the evidence not invent things.
| (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/lightbox/z001-z132/z002.jpg) | (https://sites.google.com/site/lightboxzframes/_/rsrc/1399635909543/lightbox/z133-z199/z134.jpg) |
What happened to the old saw that Zapruder Jiggled every time he heard a shot being fired? Oh yeah. This would mean More than 3 shots were fired.
Your crack analysis above would also mean that Wiegman must have also been consistently stopping and starting his jittery film. Get Serious
There is very little over exposure there at all.
You are obviously unfamiliar with the WC Testimony of Chief Curry, SA Sorrels, and SA Lawson. All of these law enforcement individuals were inside the Lead Car. Please bone up on the Officer Chaney/ Lead Car Event and the WC testimony of these 3 individuals. Once you become knowledgeable regarding all of this, we can engage in an enlightening discussion. Your current unfamiliarity in these areas renders a meaningful discussion difficult if not impossible.
What happened to the old saw that Zapruder Jiggled every time he heard a shot being fired? Oh yeah. This would mean More than 3 shots were fired.
I'm unaware that anyone ever said that every jiggle in the Zapruder film indicated a shot.
No, they just cherry-picked the jiggles that they wanted to be shots.
Yeah, amateur laymen CTs have been cherry picking the ass out of the Zapruder film for many decades, like the guy who seems to think that the Limo was going backwards, ouch!
Which you have been lying about ever since.
I'm familiar enough with it to know that Lawson told the WC that "the events after [the third shot] are a little bit jumbled" in his mind, and that he didn't say how fast the car was going when Cheney and Curry went tete-a-tete. While Lawson said that the limo never passed the lead car, I've already posted photographic proof that he was wrong on that point.
I'm familiar enough with it to not that Curry didn't testify about exactly when or where and Chaney exchanged words, or about how fast he was going at thing time it happened. The same with Sorrels.
And because of that, I have no idea where you get the idea that the lead car had to be either stopped or "speeding/racing" too fast for Curry and Cheney to understand each other. As far as I can tell, you assertion is nothing more than something you pulled wholly from your own fervid imagination. And your attempt at a Huffy Queen Bee Act only makes me even more confident that your assertion are just the application of make-believe on your part.
(1) Both the Lead Car and the JFK Limo were photographed going Fast and Accelerating directly toward the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp, (2) There is No DPD Motorcycle cop pictured near them at that point, (3) ASAIC SA Kellerman described the JFK Limo acceleration as, "...Jumped out of the G.D. street" and (4) Jackie's remembrance of, "Then Clint Hill, he loved us, he was the first man IN The Car....We ALL LAY DOWN IN THE CAR". All of this corroborates what I have laid out. No imagination is required. The Lead Car & the JFK Limo came to a STOP during which time Officer Chaney rolled up on his motorcycle, and SA Hill Entered the JFK Limo = "WE ALL LAY DOWN". There's a lot we do Not know regarding what occurred from the time the JFK Limo turned onto Elm St. until it stopped at Parkland Hospital.
1.) How do you tell from a black and white still photograph how fast a car is going? By measuring the red shift?
2.) So what? Where the motorcycles appear in a photo doesn't tell you how fast the lead car was going when the motorcycle caught up.
3.) Kellerman was talking about what the limo was doing, bot the lead car, so what he said is immaterial here.
4.) How does Clint Hill or people in the back of the limo laying down prove that the lead car was "speeding/racing" or stopped, or (for that matter) that the limo stopped?
We Not only have that photo, we have Films of both the Limo and Lead Car entering/exiting the Triple Underpass. Plus, the ASAIC Kellerman WC Testimony regarding the Immediate Rapid Acceleration of the Limo down Elm St. Maybe you believe the Limo and Lead Car were just toodling along until they boarded the Stemmons Fwy and Then per SA Hill cranked it up to 60-70 MPH? With the seriously injured POTUS in the rear of the Limo, this SS protocol would be ludicrous.
If you agree that SA Hill was inside the Limo and Laying down, then where/when did whoever that is that was photographed several times spread eagle across the rear of the Limo come from? That individual took that position when the Limo was Stopped.
We Not only have that photo, we have Films of both the Limo and Lead Car entering/exiting the Triple Underpass. Plus, the ASAIC Kellerman WC Testimony regarding the Immediate Rapid Acceleration of the Limo down Elm St. Maybe you believe the Limo and Lead Car were just toodling along until they boarded the Stemmons Fwy and Then per SA Hill cranked it up to 60-70 MPH? With the seriously injured POTUS in the rear of the Limo, this SS protocol would be ludicrous.
If you agree that SA Hill was inside the Limo and Laying down, then where/when did whoever that is that was photographed several times spread eagle across the rear of the Limo come from? That individual took that position when the Limo was Stopped.
I don't know if there is any film that shows the limousine west of the triple overpass. At this point, I kinda doubt you do, either. That being said, the film and photographs we have show the limousine catching up to and overtaking the lead car West of the overpass. That is, at that point, the limo is moving much
faster than the lead car. It's a mystery how you can see that happening and then decide that the lead car was always running at the same speed as the limo is beyond me as well as beyond the laws of physics.
Clint Hill laying down in the limo has no bearing on how fast the lead car was going when Cheney rode up beside it. Period.
Please review the Jack Daniel Film as to "film that shows the limousine West of the Triple Overpass. If you are serious about this discussion, kindly do your homework/research. Your speculating as to what I do not know will continue to have you wiping egg from your face.
The Jack Daniel film confirms what I've already said based on the other photos and the Zapruder film: the limo catches up to and passes the lead car just West of the triple overpass. It also doesn't show the limo stopping. Did you think it would show different?
So far, you've told me to:
1.) Study the testimony of the guys in the lead car (Those accounts don't support your contentions about the lead car's speed).
2.) Ignore the lead car testimony, and follow what Kellerman, Hill, and Jackie said about what the limo did (Which does not address what the lead car was doing)
3.) Watch the Jack Daniel film (Again, it supports my contention that the limo was travelling much faster than the lead car)
I'm not sure why you're hellbent on proving me right at your expense, but I appreciate the generosity.
The Daniel Film confirms You are Not up-to-speed on this subject. You either forgot or were Not aware it existed. You're welcome. Both the Lead Car and the JFK Limo were hauling arse and accelerating. The WC testimonies and the Daniel Film make this clear. There is No Way that Officer Chaney managed to catch up to the passenger side of the Lead Car while it was bookin' and then carry on a conversation with the Driver/Chief Curry. This ain't Indy Jones stuff.
The momentary stop didn't happen there.
What location = "didn't happen THERE" ?
The street network that was captured by the Daniel film. The "stop" happened elsewhere and wasn't filmed.
No one claimed the STOP happened somewhere on the Daniel Film.
The stop--or rolling stop--was where Officer Chaney caught up to the lead car.
You were claiming that the Daniel film shows Chaney not near Curry, as if that was where Chaney should have been speaking to Curry.
The Daniel Film confirms You are Not up-to-speed on this subject. You either forgot or were Not aware it existed. You're welcome. Both the Lead Car and the JFK Limo were hauling arse and accelerating. The WC testimonies and the Daniel Film make this clear. There is No Way that Officer Chaney managed to catch up to the passenger side of the Lead Car while it was bookin' and then carry on a conversation with the Driver/Chief Curry. This ain't Indy Jones stuff.
Your statement above reflects your being confused due to having jumped into the middle of the discussion.
You must be unfamiliar with the WC Testimony involving the Lead Car and Chaney. It cites Chaney pulling up on the passenger side of the Limo.
How fast/MPH do you believe the Lead Car & the JFK Limo were traveling as they were photographed approaching the Stemmons FWY On-Ramp? Do you believe that Officer Chaney & Chief Curry could carry on a conversation regarding the physical condition of JFK while both the Lead Car and Chaney's Loud Motorcycle were speeding/racing to Parkland Hospital?
Both the Lead Car & the JFK Limo are accelerating rapidly as they exit the Triple Underpass and head toward boarding the Stemmons Fwy On-Ramp. There is No Way Officer Chaney and Chief Curry, (driving the Lead Car), conversed while traveling at a high rate of speed.
The Daniel Film confirms You are Not up-to-speed on this subject. You either forgot or were Not aware it existed. You're welcome. Both the Lead Car and the JFK Limo were hauling arse and accelerating. The WC testimonies and the Daniel Film make this clear. There is No Way that Officer Chaney managed to catch up to the passenger side of the Lead Car while it was bookin' and then carry on a conversation with the Driver/Chief Curry. This ain't Indy Jones stuff.
Well, OK. I'm confused alright. You at least seem to be contenting that the rate-of-speed in the Daniel film is a constant as to how the detached motorcade made it's way from that point. Though that point seems a bit buried in some posts.
| (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R4lCcKCvr-g/WV4AombLhqI/AAAAAAABMSA/EfCw-eBEJcE_solvw9VNwhUEhgtonh_fACLcBGAs/s725/CE2116.jpg]) South end of access ramp (labelled Stemmons) | (https://c8.alamy.com/comp/MNR0BM/view-from-reunion-tower-roads-stemmons-freeway-dallas-texas-usa-MNR0BM.jpg) Overall view with ramp ascent slightly left of center (entry point to ramp at lower center) |
| (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/FreewayMan_files/image002.gif) Rough map showing freeway ramp on left |
The Stop-and-Go Motorcade by Gary Mack (Excerpts)
(Continuing Inquiry, April 22, 1980)
When retired Dallas Police Officer Earle V. Brown told me the motorcade
stopped on the Stemmons Freeway access ramp (see March 1980 TCI),
my first thought was verification.
I called Brown again to ask if he was absolutely certain about what he saw.
He said he'd been thinking about it for the past week and there was no doubt -
the motorcade, with the Kennedy limousine in front, came to a halt for some
30 seconds. Brown didn't remember any specifics - there may have been one
or two motorcycles, he couldn't recall anyone getting out of a car, one of the
men had what appeared to be a big automatic rifle.
When told of Officer Brown's account, Curry denied they stopped, but revised
his speed estimate to "pretty slow, maybe two to three miles an hour." Before
I could ask him to think about it more carefully, Curry unexpectedly volunteered
"You know, they didn't even know where the hospital was."
I'm convinced the motorcade made a dramatic slowdown on the Stemmons
Freeway entrance ramp and it probably stopped
The Stop-and-Go Motorcade by Gary Mack (Excerpts)
(Continuing Inquiry, April 22, 1980)
When retired Dallas Police Officer Earle V. Brown told me the motorcade
stopped on the Stemmons Freeway access ramp (see March 1980 TCI),
my first thought was verification.
I called Brown again to ask if he was absolutely certain about what he saw.
He said he'd been thinking about it for the past week and there was no doubt -
the motorcade, with the Kennedy limousine in front, came to a halt for some
30 seconds. Brown didn't remember any specifics - there may have been one
or two motorcycles, he couldn't recall anyone getting out of a car, one of the
men had what appeared to be a big automatic rifle.
When told of Officer Brown's account, Curry denied they stopped, but revised
his speed estimate to "pretty slow, maybe two to three miles an hour." Before
I could ask him to think about it more carefully, Curry unexpectedly volunteered
"You know, they didn't even know where the hospital was."
I'm convinced the motorcade made a dramatic slowdown on the Stemmons
Freeway entrance ramp and it probably stopped
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R4lCcKCvr-g/WV4AombLhqI/AAAAAAABMSA/EfCw-eBEJcE_solvw9VNwhUEhgtonh_fACLcBGAs/s725/CE2116.jpg]) South end of access ramp
(labelled Stemmons)(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/MNR0BM/view-from-reunion-tower-roads-stemmons-freeway-dallas-texas-usa-MNR0BM.jpg) Overall view with ramp ascent slightly left of center
(entry point to ramp at lower center)
(http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/FreewayMan_files/image002.gif)
Rough map showing freeway ramp on left
You're Greer and Kellerman. You've just been shot at, but you don't know from where or by whom. You know that someone in the car has been critically wounded. Would you stop? I can see them slowing down, especially in order to navigate the turn on the on-ramp, but I can't see them stopping. It's worth remembering that Brown
also told the WC that he thought the limo stopped on Elm.
You're Greer and Kellerman. You've just been shot at, but you don't know from where or by whom. You know that someone in the car has been critically wounded. Would you stop? I can see them slowing down, especially in order to navigate the turn on the on-ramp, but I can't see them stopping. It's worth remembering that Brown
also told the WC that he thought the limo stopped on Elm.
Knowing for a Fact that the SS had an AR-15 locked and loaded on the floorboard of the Queen Mary, do you really believe, (1) Should the POTUS come under fire that his only protection inside the JFK Limo would be the Service Revolvers of SA Greer and ASAIC Kellerman?, (2) Should the POTUS come under fire & the Limo and the Queen Mary become separated that the Only weapons available to return fire and protect the POTUS would be the service revolvers of SA Greer & ASAIC Kellerman? and (3) Should the POTUS come under fire that there would Not be a SS Protocol for the SS Agents in the motorcade to adhere to? It is a common military practice when under surprise enemy attack/fire that when possible to Regroup and Reaccess your current position and possible options going forward. ALL of this would require a brief STOP. This is what unfolded West of the Triple Underpass BEFORE the Limo boarded the actual Stemmons Fwy.
They didn't know how to get to the hospital. Better to wait 30-seconds (lead car catches up, the driver (or Kellerman) tells Curry he needs an escort to the hospital and Curry gets in the lead) than potentially spending two-or-three minutes driving around not knowing where to go. The lead car and motorcycles will also better open up traffic should any be encountered.
Brown mistook a "stop" on Elm for the brief slowing down captured on Zapruder and Nix.
Knowing for a Fact that the SS had an AR-15 locked and loaded on the floorboard of the Queen Mary, do you really believe, (1) Should the POTUS come under fire that his only protection inside the JFK Limo would be the Service Revolvers of SA Greer and ASAIC Kellerman?, (2) Should the POTUS come under fire & the Limo and the Queen Mary become separated that the Only weapons available to return fire and protect the POTUS would be the service revolvers of SA Greer & ASAIC Kellerman? and (3) Should the POTUS come under fire that there would Not be a SS Protocol for the SS Agents in the motorcade to adhere to? It is a common military practice when under surprise enemy attack/fire that when possible to Regroup and Reaccess your current position and possible options going forward. ALL of this would require a brief STOP. This is what unfolded West of the Triple Underpass BEFORE the Limo boarded the actual Stemmons Fwy.
This was a protective detail, not an infantry platoon. And they had enough agents in place in the limo to figure out what was going on even with someone driving, and radios to keep them in touch with other key players in the motorcade. For that matter, the blood, CSF, and brain matter that pelted Greer, Kellerman, and the windshield would have been an obvious indicator that someone was badly hurt, even without Hill in the back to advise. For reference, once Ronald Reagan was in the limo after Hinckley shot him, the limo didn't stop until it reached the hospital, even though the agents covering RR didn't at first realize he'd been shot, and diverted from the original destination (the White House) to GWU hospital.
1. and 2. are plain silly. 3. The protocol in place didn't cover this type of attack. According to Brown, the limousine did briefly stop on the ramp. Curry explained it being necessary because the out-of-towners SS didn't know (or was unsure) how to proceed to the hospital.
The Commission recommended changes in how the SS was to operate. Just after the assassination, the limousine's "Quick Fix" addressed the vehicle's lack of protection. Something must be working right; no President has been assassinated since.
None of us has Any idea as to SS "protocol in place" in 1963 whenever the POTUS might be actively under fire. Deflate your chest and return to Earth.If the SS in 1961-63 had a twin-car of the SS-100-X, and in training they were racing it around a mock street layout pretending there's a hidden sniper or two firing at them, then you might have a case that they should have been prepared for what happened in Dallas.
If the SS in 1961-63 had a twin-car of the SS-100-X, and in training they were racing it around a mock street layout pretending there's a hidden sniper or two firing at them, then you might have a case that they should have been prepared for what happened in Dallas.
If you are going to define SA Greer and ASAIC Kellerman as a "protective detail", and Greer was pre-occupied with actually driving the Limo, then it would be Ludicrous to believe that All the SS had in place to protect the POTUS was Roy Kellerman's side arm.I thought this was ultimately about whether the limo stopped West of the triple overpass? How it's about whether Kellerman could fire back. For the record, I will state that the motorcade's first line of defense is its mobility, not it's firepower. That's apparent in the Reagan assassination attempt, for reference.
I thought this was ultimately about whether the limo stopped West of the triple overpass? How it's about whether Kellerman could fire back. For the record, I will state that the motorcade's first line of defense is its mobility, not it's firepower. That's apparent in the Reagan assassination attempt, for reference.
BTW: Greer, Kellerman, and the guys in the Queen Mary were the protective detail.
Royall perceives things in the record that no one else can.
If the SS in 1961-63 had a twin-car of the SS-100-X, and in training they were racing it around a mock street layout pretending there's a hidden sniper or two firing at them, then you might have a case that they should have been prepared for what happened in Dallas.
I thought this was ultimately about whether the limo stopped West of the triple overpass? How it's about whether Kellerman could fire back. For the record, I will state that the motorcade's first line of defense is its mobility, not it's firepower. That's apparent in the Reagan assassination attempt, for reference.
BTW: Greer, Kellerman, and the guys in the Queen Mary were the protective detail.
You came Late to the party. Almost everybody here believes the Limo Stopped West of the Triple Underpass. The question is: (1) Exactly Where, (2) Why (Primary Purpose) (3) Did the Chaney/Lead Car Event also occur during this Limo Stop.You and what army? Seriously, exactly how many people here think that the limousine stopped West of the triple overpass?
You and what army? Seriously, exactly how many people here think that the limousine stopped West of the triple overpass?
I think the last thing that the SS wanted to be seen doing was stopping for a few minutes and having a conference while Kennedy was bleeding out in the back seat.Yeah, I've brought that up. Doesn't seem to do that much good.
They were all connected by radio and I'm pretty sure in the following image that at least one of the 3 motorcyclists in front knew where Parkland was.
This post reflects just some of the witnesses that saw the limousine either nearly stop or stop during the shooting sequence.The WC said the limo slowed down about the time of Z313, though they did deny it stopped or slowed significantly. Alavarez used a pair of linear regression analyses and found that it slowed from 12mph to 8mph centered about frame 300, though his linear regressions probably have quite a bit of uncertainty. The ANT Davison panoramic-background version of the Z-film shows the limo slowing down enough that I can see that someone might think the limo stopped.
*******************************************
The Warren Commission (WC) said the Presidential limousine did not come to a stop or slow to a near stop during the shooting of President John F. Kennedy (JFK). They used the testimony of the driver of the limousine Secret Service (SS) Agent William Greer for the basis of this claim. This post will look at this issue in greater detail as many witnesses said the limousine either stopped or came to a near stop during the shooting sequence.
***************************
You and what army? Seriously, exactly how many people here think that the limousine stopped West of the triple overpass?
I think the last thing that the SS wanted to be seen doing was stopping for a few minutes and having a conference while Kennedy was bleeding out in the back seat.
They were all connected by radio and I'm pretty sure in the following image that at least one of the 3 motorcyclists in front knew where Parkland was.
(https://i0.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/15f.-West-Of-The-Triple-Underpass-JFKs-Car-Approaches-Stemmons-Freeway-Ramp.jpg)
JohnM
Again, You are also Late to this party. This very topic has been discussed at length previously. Do some research and then get back to me. Right now you are well behind the curve. I do Not mind helping you catch up, but you also need to make an effort on your own part.You continue on a pattern of claiming things that simply do not appear in the the evidence. When confronted with the lack of support for your contention, you invariably fall back to this nebulous refrain that I am somehow behind in the evidence. Then you'll point to some film or set of testimony that turns out not to prove what you claim, and is liable to disprove it. You respond to the bad news by appealing to some other bit of evidence that likewise either fails to help you or contradicts your contentions. Then you call in the cavalry, and try to ride your high horse. Except it's a hobby horse, and not that high, anyway. How can you stand being such a vacuous nebulosity out here?
The WC said the limo slowed down about the time of Z313, though they did deny it stopped or slowed significantly. Alavarez used a pair of linear regression analyses and found that it slowed from 12mph to 8mph centered about frame 300, though his linear regressions probably have quite a bit of uncertainty. The ANT Davison panoramic-background version of the Z-film shows the limo slowing down enough that I can see that someone might think the limo stopped.
HOWEVER
That's not what Storing is talking about. He's talking about a complete and extended stop West of the triple overpass.
When McIntire took that photo Trask claimed in "Pictures Of The Pain" the DPD motorcycle cops did Not know. Also, when the pic was taken Officer Chaney had yet to inform Chief Curry/Lead Car as to the condition of the JFK.
You continue on a pattern of claiming things that simply do not appear in the the evidence. When confronted with the lack of support for your contention, you invariably fall back to this nebulous refrain that I am somehow behind in the evidence. Then you'll point to some film or set of testimony that turns out not to prove what you claim, and is liable to disprove it. You respond to the bad news by appealing to some other bit of evidence that likewise either fails to help you or contradicts your contentions. Then you call in the cavalry, and try to ride your high horse. Except it's a hobby horse, and not that high, anyway. How can you stand being such a vacuous nebulosity out here?
Have we confirmed that the police bike that talked to Curry was actually Chaney because Curry didn't seem sure and I have yet to be sure where 2 of the 5 following lead bikes ended up?
(https://s15.postimg.cc/hjb4abzcb/muchmore_bikess.gif)
Hargis parked his bike and says that Chaney accelerated up to the front which must be the bike in the gif below.
Mr. HARGIS - Yes; when President Kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and I was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of bloody water, It wasn't really blood. And at that time the Presidential car slowed down. I heard somebody say, "Get going," or "get going,"
Mr. STERN - Someone inside--
Mr. HARGIS - I don't know whether it was the Secret Service car, and I remembered seeing Officer Chaney. Chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the Presidential limousine shot off, and I stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscaharg.htm
Slightly before the McIntire photo was taken the Presidential Limo was passing Curry's car at a rate of knots and a casual glance in that direction would indicate that something was drastically wrong and we know that Curry heard the shots.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/uapago1cr/cars_limo_underpass.gif)
Greer's official SS report reinforces all that we have been saying, that Kellerman was on the radio to the lead car and if the motorcycle police weren't already aware of what happened, Greer made sure of it.
We rushed up to the police escort and I called to the motorcycle police, Hospital. Mr. Kellerman was calling to the lead automobile on the radio to get to the nearest hospital fast. I drove as fast as I could to the hospital and helped to get the President into the emergency room.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-greer.htm
Another observation is that I'm pretty sure that the motorbike on our left at the mouth of the tunnel is stationary because if you look at the gif above you can see the white helmet of this motorbike cop but I can't explain why the bike panniers aren't as visible, perhaps the cops helmets were made of reflective material? Or another take could be that this bike is Chaney and the other Martin?
(https://i0.wp.com/altereddimensions.net/main/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/15f.-West-Of-The-Triple-Underpass-JFKs-Car-Approaches-Stemmons-Freeway-Ramp.jpg)
JohnM
Officer Earle Brown (stationed on the T&R RR Overpass) said the limousine stopped on the access ramp for about 30 seconds, while the Curry car pulled up to it.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/34dk8w0.jpg)
Officer James W. Courson was a motorcycle policeman assigned to the middle of the motorcade. He told Larry Snead ("No More Silence" 1998 ( Google Books (https://books.google.ca/books?id=7uT-47ysB5MC&printsec=frontcover) )) that he was "stopped" at Main and Houston when he heard the shots. He was at the top of Elm and saw Mrs. Kennedy on the trunk. He caught up to the limousine as "they entered the Stemmons Freeway ramp." He was one of two rear escorts to Parkland.
The McIntire photo suggests Courson is wrong about the entrance to the ramp being where he caught up to the limousine. I think Courson caught up with the limousine on the ramp itself not far from the entry onto Stemmons. To cover that distance and catch up to the limousine would seem to mean the limousine had slowed considerably or, as Officer Brown claimed, momentarily stopped.
Yes,they took it down,if i am not mistaking,it was the day,of the funeral,of President Kennedy.It's impossible now,but the first generation copy of the Zapruder film,it does appear to be 3 holes,in the sign.Do you have a screen shot you could post showing the three holes?
Do you have a screen shot you could post showing the three holes?Three holes. Who was shooting, Helen Keller? My God. Please Mommy make it stop.
Have to google it,can't post from my computer,there is a youtube video that honestly looks like you can see the sign being hit,wish i had the link to it. You just have to look.Try this in case you missed it.
Been a joke,but what can you expect for a known drunk. His claim,he push her down surveyed the wound,gave thumbs down,shouted get out of here,all in 3 seconds,all this while holding Mrs. Kennedy down.That's cold. He's the only one that did his job. She came home.
Also since the stereoscopic photos share identical precise depth maps we can successfully recombine these images into a rotating animation and conclusively prove that there was absolutely zero manipulation.
The only thing your phony morphs conclusively prove is how delusional you are.
Don't blame me because the photographers took stereoscopic photos of the wounds to prove their authenticity and don't blame me for conclusively proving that both images share the same relative depth map.
Your computer artificially-generated morph has ZERO to do with stereoscopic photos (or the space program). You take two different photos and the software generates all the intermediate images between the two. It actually proves nothing (though it is kinda cool looking).
By the way, I have a pair of red-cyan glasses and your moon landing photos don't even line up.
This is precisely the reason I use morphs because they get job done and are not open to layman interpretation.
Btw flip your glasses so the blue is on the left.
Still off.
The only thing your phony morphs conclusively prove is how delusional you are.
Argument from personal incredulity
"I can't even begin to imagine how this can work / be possible, hence it must be fake".
Sorry, Bill, I know exactly how it works. That's why I know it's fake images created by the computer.
Sorry, Bill, I know exactly how it works.
Nice, tell us "exactly how it works"?
You take a starting photo and an ending photo, and software generates artificial intermediate images between the two to turn them into a morph.
"Mytton" then posts the morph and says "clearly....blah blah blah....conclusively.....blah blah blah".
Your explanation reminds me of the Monty Python lesson on how to play the flute. According to Eric Idle you hold it up to your mouth then blow. Lesson over.
You take a starting photo and an ending photo, and software generates artificial intermediate images between the two to turn them into a morph.
That's not "exactly how it works", try again.
Actually, it was John Cleese.
Last week we showed you how to become a gynecologist.
But what do you want, the source code?
By all means, Mr. layman, explain how I got it wrong.
By all means, Mr. layman, explain how I got it wrong.
Bill Brown would be proud of your word games. If my summary was inaccurate in any way then specify how.
Bill Brown would be proud of your word games.
If my summary was inaccurate in any way then specify how.
It's your words, if you don't want to stand by them then don't, it's only your credibility at stake.
I explained it. You don't approve of the explanation, but can't point to anything inaccurate about it.
But anything to divert from your inability to defend your conclusion about who killed JFK, right?
I explained it. You don't approve of the explanation, but can't point to anything inaccurate about it.
But anything to divert from your inability to defend your conclusion about who killed JFK, right?
I explained it.
But anything to divert from your inability to defend your conclusion about who killed JFK, right?
This post of yours is unadulterated BS. You make a claim of knowing "exactly" how something works then are unable to do so when challenged. If you were remotely honest you'd admit that your claim of knowing "exactly" how it works was wrong and there would be nothing wrong in saying that. Then to cover your embarrassment you throw out a red herring by saying:
"But anything to divert from your inability to defend your conclusion about who killed JFK, right?"
hoping like hell to drag the conversation in a different direction where you feel comfortable i.e. in the Deny Deny Deny world you live in. That attempt to distract is such a cheap shot. Now I understand why you are called a liar and a fraud.
This post of yours is unadulterated BS. You make a claim of knowing "exactly" how something works then are unable to do so when challenged. If you were remotely honest you'd admit that your claim of knowing "exactly" how it works was wrong and there would be nothing wrong in saying that. Then to cover your embarrassment you throw out a red herring by saying:
"But anything to divert from your inability to defend your conclusion about who killed JFK, right?"
hoping like hell to drag the conversation in a different direction where you feel comfortable i.e. in the Deny Deny Deny world you live in. That attempt to distract is such a cheap shot. Now I understand why you are called a liar and a fraud.
You think you did and that's the problem, all this time you've never had a clue and subsequently all your criticisms of my work have been based on your inability to actually understand what was being presented.
Oh, I understand.
Still off.
Getting a little bit back to topic, well not really as it should be talking about the Stemmons Freeway sign being removed! However much of the talk in this thread centers around a second stop of the limousine west of the triple overpass.
This interview with David Lifton says there are 3 witnesses to this 2nd stop and says it was at this time that Jacqueline Kennedy wanted to get out the car once more as she feared for her life and was forced back into the car by the SS! Is this something new or just another author making money? 35:00 minutes into this video! No question the car had slowed down near to a stop at the time of shooting as Hill runs up to it. How fast can you run and catch a 12 mph car?
There also was mention of Connally watching the Zapruder Film video on Monday while in the hospital (47:20) so Nellie and him could comment properly given the knowledge obtained from this.
Yeah we know, you said you know "exactly how it works" but ironically you are still yet to elaborate on "exactly how it works"?
And if you don't know "exactly how it works" then we can only conclude that when you were criticizing my work all this time you were just being dishonest.
This is why you fail at anything image related, in the following article the same image is presented and the author along with a stack of replies all agree that the following anaglyph presents a 3D image and again proving that you are just dishonest.
This is the JFK Assassination Forum, not the Quibble About What The Word "exactly" means Forum.
I thought this worth quoting for future reference when, for example, you quibble about what scared means when Oswald encounters shoe stores.
I didn't quibble about it, I asked a perfectly reasonable question. Only Brewer knows what he meant. Whatever he meant, how did that make the guy a murder suspect?
Your point was that a single word should not be quibbled over. I guess that only applies when you want to do the quibbling. You lost the Brewer discussion yesterday when you were beaten to a pulp by JM. It's would be a waste of time to go back over it here.
You should read it all again though if only to see how ridiculous your position was and what a goose you made of yourself.
...when you were beaten to a pulp by JM.
You nailed it. He keeps writing checks that either he can't afford to pay or just denies outright, weird!
JohnM
I didn't quibble about it, I asked a perfectly reasonable question. Only Brewer knows what he meant. Whatever he meant, how did that make the guy a murder suspect?
'He keeps writing checks that his mouth can't cash' goes the saying
No idea what you're talking about. You mean his weak sauce apologism of Helen Markham, who even Joseph Ball referred to as an "utter screwball"?
Thanks for your input though. :D
Thumb1:
JohnM
Mystery guest #2, said the Divine Miss M
She also had one of the greatest lines of all when she said she was there to look at faces, not clothes.
I know what he meant. He explained it on Griggs/MF/Page 6
Keep taking Polaroids (so-to-speak) of each moment in isolation and you will never gain credibility here with reasonable people.
Mystery guest #2, said the Divine Miss M
She also had one of the greatest lines of all when she said she was there to look at faces, not clothes.
Mr. BALL. Did you recognize anyone in the lineup?
Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. You did not? Did you see anybody--I have asked you that question before did you recognize anybody from their face?
Mrs. MARKHAM. From their face, no.
So she was there to look at faces which she couldn't recognise?
Markham might not be the sharpest tool in the shed or a very good witness but the case against Saint Patsy in Tippit's murder is air tight.
LOL. Did you actually read the comments? How about this one?
"The one Dr. BA posted above seems a little off, to me. There?s too much difference in the color shift between the astronaut, and the LM and background mountains. The bigger shift creates too great a false parallax, making it tough to resolve."
I suppose he's being "dishonest" too. Why can't you take the slightest bit of criticism without flipping out?