Lee Oswald The Cop Killer

[Dan O'meara]

They certainly are in agreement, Mr. Johnson leaning toward 1:30, so why are you telling they said "around 2:00PM."?

Correct, which is why he talked to Gerald Hill about picking up Oswald in Irving?

If Oswald volunteered anything it would have been 2:30pm at the earliest.

There's no reason to push the Johnsons estimate one minute beyond 2:00pm and Potts stated they (DP) arrived at 3:00, deal with it.

Okay Otto, I'll deal with it (whatever that means)


They certainly are in agreement, Mr. Johnson leaning toward 1:30, so why are you telling they said "around 2:00PM."?

Mr Johnson hears the news of JFK's death before coming home, and doesn't get home until about 10 minutes after the announcement, let's say about 1:50PM

At this time Potts is in the DPD taking affidavits off Dougherty and Arce who both recognise Oswald as he's brought in after his arrest.
Potts processes these two affidavits and at some point after that Bill Senkel arrives to tell him they're going out to 1026.
In Potts' account it doesn't seem like they have been at the house all that long before Oswald is recognised on the television. Oswald's image first flashes up on CBS around 3:34PM.

If Oswald volunteered anything it would have been 2:30pm at the earliest.


So let's say Oswald gives up the address around 2:30 - 2:40Pm
Fritz tells Senkel to take some men and check out the address.
Potts, Senkel and Cunningham arrive around 3:00PM
Oswald is recognised around 3:30PM
Senkel calls HQ to find out the search warrant is already en route.
This is because, around 3:00PM Buddy Walthers calls Decker with the number Ruth Paine gave him. Decker asks Allan Sweatt to check the address. At some point Sweatt reports back with the 1026 address at which point Decker gets on to Justice of the Peace Johnston for a search warrant, which he personally delivers to the Beckley address.


A couple of problems with the notion of the DP being at the house around 2:00PM.
Firstly, what were Potts and co. doing for the hour and a half before Oswald was recognised on the TV?
Secondly, if the Johnsons are part of some elaborate hoax, why are they saying the DP arrived so early, thereby ruining the elaborate hoax?

[Richard Smith]

Why would any conspirator be in a rush to have Oswald's boardinghouse searched when he was already in custody and there was nothing incriminating to be found there?  Like the bus to nowhere and alleged phone/power outage, this seems to advance no objective from a conspiracy perspective.  And if there is no allegation of this occurring as a result of a conspiracy (or proof of such) to frame Oswald but just a because someone "wants to know," then why does it really matter? 

[Walt Cakebread]

Okay Otto, I'll deal with it (whatever that means)


They certainly are in agreement, Mr. Johnson leaning toward 1:30, so why are you telling they said "around 2:00PM."?

Mr Johnson hears the news of JFK's death before coming home, and doesn't get home until about 10 minutes after the announcement, let's say about 1:50PM

At this time Potts is in the DPD taking affidavits off Dougherty and Arce who both recognise Oswald as he's brought in after his arrest.
Potts processes these two affidavits and at some point after that Bill Senkel arrives to tell him they're going out to 1026.
In Potts' account it doesn't seem like they have been at the house all that long before Oswald is recognised on the television. Oswald's image first flashes up on CBS around 3:34PM.

If Oswald volunteered anything it would have been 2:30pm at the earliest.


So let's say Oswald gives up the address around 2:30 - 2:40Pm
Fritz tells Senkel to take some men and check out the address.
Potts, Senkel and Cunningham arrive around 3:00PM
Oswald is recognised around 3:30PM
Senkel calls HQ to find out the search warrant is already en route.
This is because, around 3:00PM Buddy Walthers calls Decker with the number Ruth Paine gave him. Decker asks Allan Sweatt to check the address. At some point Sweatt reports back with the 1026 address at which point Decker gets on to Justice of the Peace Johnston for a search warrant, which he personally delivers to the Beckley address.


A couple of problems with the notion of the DP being at the house around 2:00PM.
Firstly, what were Potts and co. doing for the hour and a half before Oswald was recognised on the TV?
Secondly, if the Johnsons are part of some elaborate hoax, why are they saying the DP arrived so early, thereby ruining the elaborate hoax?

I believe that you're very close regarding the times involved for the police arriving at the rooming house at 1026 N Beckley.
Lee definitely did tell Captain Fritz that he had a room at 1026 N Beckley ( And I believe Lee told Fritz that he rented that room BEFORE FBI agent Hosty arrived at the police station at around 2:50.  You may recall that Fritz had started the preliminary interrogation when he received a call from the FBI  SAC  Gordon Shanklin  who told him not to start interrogating Oswald until FBI agent James Hosty could be present, because Hosty had been working with "these people"  and Shanklin then  dispatched Hosty immediately.  ( @ approximately 2:15 pm) )

Hosty arrived a DPD headquarters at  about 2:50 and Hosty told Lt. Jack Revill at that time that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Captain Fritz's office.   Hosty told Revill " I blurted ---" Jack , the Lee that you're talking about is Lee Oswald. He killed Tippit. He's a communist and he probably killed Kennedy too.  He's under arrest right now upstairs"   

Bottom line..... Lee had already told Fritz that he rented a room at 1026 N. Beckley ( probably as soon as Fritz started talking to Lee Oswald. at about 2:30)   


So let's say Oswald gives up the address around 2:30 - 2:40Pm
Fritz tells Senkel to take some men and check out the address.
Potts, Senkel and Cunningham arrive around 3:00PM
Oswald is recognised around 3:30PM
Senkel calls HQ to find out the search warrant is already en route.
This is because, around 3:00PM Buddy Walthers calls Decker with the number Ruth Paine gave him. Decker asks Allan Sweatt to check the address. At some point Sweatt reports back with the 1026 address at which point Decker gets on to Justice of the Peace Johnston for a search warrant, which he personally delivers to the Beckley address.

[Richard Smith]

Why would any conspirator be in a rush to have Oswald's boardinghouse searched when he was already in custody and there was nothing incriminating to be found there?

And you know this how?

Like the bus to nowhere and alleged phone/power outage, this seems to advance no objective from a conspiracy perspective.

ROFL -- you bailed the bus to nowhere, literary, when your argument fell apart.

And if there is no allegation of this occurring as a result of a conspiracy (or proof of such) to frame Oswald but just a because someone "wants to know," then why does it really matter?

Any timeline that breaks down matters. Your question underlines the fact that you don't understand how a timeline works.

Down the rabbit hole we go again!  Martin is awfully quiet.  Three's a crowd.  Again, what would be the rush for anyone to have the DPD to search Oswald's boardinghouse if there was nothing incriminatory to be found there?  Do you believe something incriminating was found at Oswald's boardinghouse and the DPD was protecting Oswald by rushing there to cover it up?  That seems to cut against framing him.  In your fantasy scenario, what are you suggesting is the motivation for the DPD to search Oswald's boardinghouse in such a rush instead of just waiting until they uncovered his address?  He was already in custody.  4-3=0 again.

[Richard Smith]

Down the rabbit hole we go again!

Classic, translation: I somehow can't make my strawman work.

Martin is awfully quiet. Three's a crowd.

ROFL -- Gone CT on the alleged account scam?

Again, what would be the rush for anyone to have the DPD to search Oswald's boardinghouse if there was nothing incriminatory to be found there?

Again, you know this how?

Do you believe something incriminating was found at Oswald's boardinghouse and the DPD was protecting Oswald by rushing there to cover it up? That seems to cut against framing him.

Odd question, how would this protection of Oswald work?

In your fantasy scenario, what are you suggesting is the motivation for the DPD to search Oswald's boardinghouse in such a rush instead of just waiting until they uncovered his address?

I don't deal in fantasy scenarios, but how could they rush anywhere until they had uncovered his address?

He was already in custody.

Your point being?

4-3=0 again.

Irrelevant.

I know now what it is like to play whack-a-mole with someone who has ADD.  I'll try one question that accepts the extremely dubious premise that has been suggested (i.e. that the DPD somehow knew Oswald's address before he gave it to them). 

Why not wait until Oswald had given his address instead of rushing off to his boardinghouse and risking exposure of having some type of foreknowledge of where he lived?

[Dan O'meara]

Okay Otto, I'll deal with it (whatever that means)

Pro-tip: If in doubt, ask.

(which may seem to be in conflict with my previous tip)

Keep the pro-tips coming, it's like some kind of wisdom is being slowly revealed:

If in doubt, ask...but never ask a question you don't already know the answer to.

You seem to be going down the route of Richard Smith's infallible conspirators but you should know by now how that is guarantied to end.

I've thought about this sentence for a while, and I literally don't know what you're trying to say. What route? What "infallible conspirators"? What "end"?
But most of all - how is this a response to what I posted?

Potts, in his report, increased your 11 tenants to 16 which brings us back to your easily checkable evidence...

My 11 tenants? My house isn't big enough.
"Easily checkable" by who?

[Dan O'meara]

I incorrectly assumed you would understand the difference between being in 'game mode' and engaging in some elaborate explanation before understanding what is being asked.

I can see that it's written in English.
And that it's put together into a coherent sentence.
But, once again, the meaning of what you're actually saying seems elusive.

Disappointing, read back:
Secondly, if the Johnsons are part of some elaborate hoax, why are they saying the DP arrived so early, thereby ruining the elaborate hoax?

A perfectly valid point that does need to be dealt with at some stage.
Once the notion of a "Hoax" has been created, then this entity - the Hoax - has to withstand scrutiny as if it were a real thing.
Who created this hoax?
Who participated in it?
What are the "mechanics" of it?

In my mind, these things have to be dealt with instead of crying "Hoax" and then just moving on, as if it's been dealt with.
Another example of a solid question that needs answering - what is the purpose of the Hoax?
This question must be answered satisfactorily, it is a fundamental issue.
In LeDoux's piece the only reason I can find for this unbelievably complex hoax is to place Oswald close to the Tippit murder.
I find this really baffling. Oswald was arrested not far from the scene of the shooting so he's already there. It doesn't matter where he came from, he is discovered close to the scene of the crime. I don't understand why the need to have him living close by.

Was the Hoax pre-planned or was it something created on the spur of the moment?
I don't think it's good enough to get lost in the uncertainty of the detail without being aware that these details must throw light on these more fundamental issues.

Equally disappointing:
The lame excuse thread, reply #329.

I came across the names of eleven male occupants of 1026 on the Mary Ferrell website. I'd literally just started looking into this aspect of the case about which I knew very little and was trying to answer your questions about the occupants.
They're Mary's eleven, not mine.

I've got to go through LeDoux's excellent piece about this in a lot more detail as I can't discern, at the moment, if the occupants were really there or not. If they were, were some of them coaxed into joining in with the hoax? Was it all some kind of massive set-up from scratch? Or just some giant misunderstanding.
The incompetence of the investigation into this aspect of the case is up to it's usual, mind-blowing proportions. There is a definite sense that something is being covered-up/manipulated.

Further disappointment:
The lame excuse thread, reply #323.

You've misunderstood my original point.
When Mrs Johnson is supposed to be spinning her elaborate yarn to the WC (something I'm finding very difficult to buy), she introduces the detail that Oswald sometimes sat with the other male renters watching TV. By introducing this detail she was dragging into her complex lie all the male renters in her rooming house. I was imagining that it would be desirable to keep things simple when telling such a huge lie but Johnson does exactly the opposite.
Why introduce this detail?
It can be easily checked by the authorities, the media or any private individual investigating this aspect of the case. It's in a residential area, ask a neighbour about it or at the garage across the road or any of the friends/family of the Johnsons or Earlene Roberts.
It seems to me to be an incredibly simple thing to check.
That it wasn't investigated properly is a whole other matter.

[Dan O'meara]

Whether you understood my advise or not doesn't matter since, per your own admission, you tried to deal with something you didn't understand. I'm glad we have that covered.

I'm glad we've got that covered as well.
It's a real load off.
As you point out, I'm trying to deal with an aspect of the case I know very little about so maybe you can help me out on some of the fundamentals I'm having a hard time with, like - what is the purpose of creating the illusion that Oswald lived at 1026?

Your argument continues to rely on the nutty and irrational premise that everyone getting involved with a conspiracy will have their IQ doubled instantly.

It seems like a very complex and audacious Hoax is being perpetrated.
The Johnsons and Earlene Roberts have got to be singing from the same page and keeping the details of the story the same.
I'm assuming someone else has come in and briefed them on what they're supposed to be saying. I'm assuming someone has outlined the basic "narrative".
So, when the Johnsons have the DP arriving before Oswald is even arrested, I can't help but think that whoever was prepping them with the story-line has really failed. Nobody's IQ needs to double to keep in mind such a basic part of the Hoax, in fact, it needs to have halved.
How could the Johnsons have made such a monumental blunder with such a basic detail?

So tell us what Gladys Johnson would have said if she was part of a conspiracy and what prevented it from being easily checked?

Firstly, I wouldn't have set the Hoax up in a rooming house. That makes zero sense.
But, as that's what they decided to do...Mrs Johnson should have answered "yes" or "no" rather than run off at the mouth about Oswald and his time there. She should have said Oswald went to work early, never came out of his room, never spoke to anyone.
I don't think she should have appeared on TV, like Roberts and her frequent TV appearances. Seems a bit risky.

And do tell us what "matter" caused the easy checks not to be performed.

The "Oswald-Did-It" mentality was in from the get go.
As soon as he was arrested in the Texas Theater there seems to have been an automatic assumption that he was the sole assassin.
It appears that, as far as the investigating authorities were concerned, they had their man behind bars and they weren't really motivated to uncover anything that altered that perception.
A cursory questioning of the tenants revealed there was nothing of interest to be added to the preferred narrative - that Oswald was the lone assassin of JFK and a cop-killer.