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Author Topic: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer  (Read 358054 times)

Offline Dan O'meara

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2184 on: May 14, 2021, 10:56:57 AM »
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It was not until he and his assistant pulled back a blanket covering Tippit that they realized the victim was a policeman.

Didn't know of this account -- I haven't seen a blanket mentioned anywhere else.

Who put it there?

None of the known witnesses seemed to have any trouble recognizing the body as a police officer.

Here's a link to the article.

http://www.kenrahn.com/JFK/History/WC_Period/Reactions_to_Warren_Report/Support_from_center/The_other_witnesses--Nashes.html

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2184 on: May 14, 2021, 10:56:57 AM »


Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2185 on: May 14, 2021, 08:44:17 PM »
And...Croy was in uniform...

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in uniform?
Mr. CROY. In uniform.

He must have been close to see Tippit being loaded and Bowley, who already made a call, was there.

Makes no sense Callaway would THEN get on the radio to report a shooting.

Bill Brown's wet dream.

Good observation. I missed that....

And there is more. On 02/25/64 Callaway was interviewed by FBI agent Arthur Carter. In his FD 302 report he writes: 

.......he [Callaway] observed that TIPPIT had been shot in the temple. He said TIPPIT was lying on his pistol and he, CALLAWAY, took the pistol and put it on the hood of TiPPIT's patrol car. Then he got in the patrol car and used the police radio to contact the Dallas Police Department, who advised they were aware that the police officer [TIPPIT] had been shot. He said the dispatcher told him to get off the air. About that time an ambulance came up and CALLAWAY said he and an unidentified citizen helped the ambulance driver put the officer (TIPPIT) in the ambulance.


It blows Brown's silly theory right out of the water, that's for sure, and it makes this exchange, in which Brown claims it is a fact, laughable;


You are aware that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE making his call on the patrol car radio.  Right?  There's your "coffee break".

And you want to debate this stuff live?  Really?



Translation for "coffee break":  Martin was unaware that Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance BEFORE reporting the shooting on the patrol car radio to the police dispatcher.



Martin "wasn't aware" that Callaway helped load Tippit's body into the ambulance before he made his radio call because it never happened. You made it up to score a point. There is not a shred of evidence for it and it doesn't make sense.

The time has long passed that I would accept something at face value because Bill Brown said so.



A fact is still a fact whether you've accepted it or not. Callaway helped load the body and THEN, as the ambulance pulled away, got on the radio to report the incident.  Just a simple act of helping load the body into the ambulance, no "coffee break" required. Like I said before, I don't expect you to know these things.  No biggie.


"And you want to debate this stuff live?  Really?" - Bill Brown   :D
« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 07:49:00 PM by Martin Weidmann »

Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2186 on: May 16, 2021, 01:22:30 AM »
You guys are incorrect. Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance before he got on the patrol car radio. The order of events on the police tapes tell you this.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2186 on: May 16, 2021, 01:22:30 AM »


Offline Steve M. Galbraith

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2187 on: May 16, 2021, 02:07:36 AM »
Bill: How many shells/spent cartridge cases were found near/around Tippit's body or the police car?

If the shooter had a automatic I would think that that's where they would be located and/or found.

Online Martin Weidmann

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2188 on: May 16, 2021, 08:40:56 AM »
You guys are incorrect. Callaway helped load the body into the ambulance before he got on the patrol car radio. The order of events on the police tapes tell you this.

Extremely weak! That's all you have to say? Do you really think we are going to take your word for it just because you say so and have drawn the wrong conclusion from the police tapes? Really?

In a previous post you wrote;

Wow.

All of that yada yada yada and you still don't know what you're talking about.

By the time Callaway testified in 1964, he was slightly off in the order of events, regarding loading the body into the ambulance and reporting the shooting to the police dispatcher.

All you really have to do is study the police tapes.

602 is the Kinsley/Butler ambulance.  As they pulled away from the scene with Tippit's body, they made an attempt to get hold of the police dispatcher to notify the dispatcher that they were en route to Methodist Hospital.

Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) didn't hear their attempt because at the same time, Callaway (after helping load the body into the ambulance) then went over to the patrol car radio, grabbed the mic and reported: "Hello, Hello, Hello.  This police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead."

Callaway was told by the dispatcher that  the police had the information and to remain off the air.

When Callaway (during his testimony) said "By this time, an ambulance was coming", he was correct.  Another ambulance (605) had been dispatched to the scene but the first ambulance (602) had already left for Methodist with the body.

I wouldn't really expect you to know any of this because (besides the sad reality that you're only interested in scoring points) it requires some work and maybe more importantly, an understanding of the big picture after having read EVERYTHING (as opposed to just Callaway's testimony).  But, you haven't read EVERYTHING, only what you feel works for you at the moment.

Get a clue.


http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dpdtapes/tapes2.htm

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Department/Dallas%20Police%20Department%20Records/Volume%2004/Item%2001.pdf

but you clearly overlooked that this;

602 is the Kinsley/Butler ambulance.  As they pulled away from the scene with Tippit's body, they made an attempt to get hold of the police dispatcher to notify the dispatcher that they were en route to Methodist Hospital.

Murray Jackson (the dispatcher) didn't hear their attempt because at the same time, Callaway (after helping load the body into the ambulance) then went over to the patrol car radio, grabbed the mic and reported: "Hello, Hello, Hello.  This police officer's just shot.  I think he's dead."


is explained in the Nash article, from which Dan O'meara quoted

Just reading through the 1964 Nash article " The Other Witnesses" in which it states:

"Butler radioed his arrival at the scene at 1:18 p.m., within 60 seconds of leaving the funeral home. He remembers that there were at least 10 people standing around the man lying on the ground. It was not until he and his assistant pulled back a blanket covering Tippit that they realized the victim was a policeman.
   
Butler ran back to his radio to inform headquarters. The radio was busy and he could not cut in. He yelled “Mayday” to no avail, and went back to Tippit."

This is surely a reference to the part on the tapes when 602 is trying to call in but is cut across by Callaway's call.
This appears to confirm that Callaway was in Tippit's car at the time the ambulance arrived, Butler discovers the victim is a police officer then tries to call in but Callaway is on the radio. It is after this Tippit is loaded into the ambulance.

And are you aware of the fact that Callaway not only told the WC in his testimony, but also told FBI agent Arthur Carter, on 02/25/64, that he first made the call and then helped to put Tippit in the ambulance?

So, why do you think you know better than Callaway?

Bottom line; you're wrong again. Deal with it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 11:11:46 PM by Martin Weidmann »

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2188 on: May 16, 2021, 08:40:56 AM »


Offline Bill Brown

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2189 on: May 16, 2021, 07:01:41 PM »
Bill: How many shells/spent cartridge cases were found near/around Tippit's body or the police car?

If the shooter had a automatic I would think that that's where they would be located and/or found.

Great question, Steve... And the answer is zero, of course.

Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2190 on: May 16, 2021, 07:19:55 PM »
If you read [Bowles], read carefully. It doesn't mean what Martin would like you to believe.

That's weird, because I just quoted the man without giving an opinion and - unlike you - wasn't trying to spin it.
So, you weren't trying to spin anything at all when you tried to use Bowles' statements to claim that "[a]t best the time calls on the DPD recordings are the product of a very weak system" a few pages back?

When you boil it down and winnow out the irrelevancies, the FUD, and the hypothetical worst-case scenarios, you have two statements by Bowles that sum up the situation:

1.)  "it was not uncommon for the time stamped on calls to be a minute to two ahead or behind the 'official' time shown on the master clock" [note defensive use of litotes here, by the way]
2.)  "When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments." 


And here is me thinking he actually said;

"When clocks were as much as a minute or so out of synchronization it was normal procedure to make the needed adjustments. During busy periods this was not readily done."

You must have missed that last bit, right?
Didn't miss it at all. However, I'm missing where you showed Bowles actually stating that the dispatcher clocks were out of spec that afternoon. Or any other evidence that the clocks were off spec.
As I said (and you deleted it without responding to it), "You can claim Nov 22 was one of those exceptional days, but then you need to present evidence for it. Bowles himself was the supervisor of the dispatch center. Later, he spent a great deal of time pouring over the Dictabelt when he prepared the original channel one transcripts. And yet, he can't point to a single such exception."



Lottie Thompson was the Methodist Hospital ER nurse whom Martin brings into the conversation from time to time. In the 70's, she told Earl Golz that the clock in the Methodist ER was 15 minutes behind on November 22.

First of all, I have never brought up Lottie Thompson and, secondly, Methodist Hospital only had one clock? Really?

Also, DPD officer Davenport (who, unlike Mr. Todd, was actually present at the hospital when all this happened) presented to the DPD identification bureau a button from Tippit's uniform and a bullet taken from his corpse at 1:30. So, if the nurse was correct, they took a bullet from Tippit's body when he was not even declared DOA. Really?

Anyway, Davenport wrote in his own hand on the form that Tippit had been declared DOA at 1:15. Go figure.... now why would he lie on day one?
Like Davenport, Nurse Thompson was also in the Methodist ER that afternoon. Unlike Davenport, she was there every workday and had a much better perspective on the functioning of the Hospital's timekeeping machinery. Her bringing up the issue with Golz implies that she didn't believe that Tippt was wheeled in at 1:15 or just before.

BTW, who claimed Davenport lied? I never did. But if he's basing time of DOA on a clock that's way off, then his report will be way off because of it. Or, if Davenport (who was a traffic cop and not a murder investigator) is told that Ligouri was going to declare Tippit DOA and put the time of death at 1:15, and misunderstands the difference between time of death and time declared dead, he's still going to honestly wrong.

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2190 on: May 16, 2021, 07:19:55 PM »


Online Mitch Todd

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Re: Lee Oswald The Cop Killer
« Reply #2191 on: May 16, 2021, 07:24:26 PM »
Great question, Steve... And the answer is zero, of course.

If it were an automatic, you'd expect the empty cases to be flung to the right of the shooter. That is, to the east of Tippit's car. The cases that were recovered were well to the west.